Guild Wars 2

Sizer.5632:

So you state an opinion (aka you dont want this in the gem store), and then you demand that people refrain from using the most common argument against your opinion (aka anet needs to make money somewhere)?

Awesome way to start a discussion.

Then again, that’s a pretty bad excuse for a game being marketed and sold as B2P game. It would be a great and valid excuse for a F2P game! But it isn’t. A B2P game should make money with.. you know people buying the game (that include expansions). Not that that is going to be enough if you only release an expansion after about 3 years but that’s because they choose to earn money mainly with these sorts of items instead of with game (and expansion) sales.

So common or not, it’s not a very good excuse and it’s oke to dismiss it on forehand to prevent a complete useless discussion about that. (not that that is ever going to work). They need to make money somewhere, but that could be somewhere else as well. Guess his argument is that it should not be here (with those items).

It’s all just marketing. When you use a cash-shop for income you don’t focus on making the best game and earning money that way (because game-sales are not substantial enough if you come with an expansion once every +- 3 years as Anet does) but you try methods to sell your cash-shop items.

Usually not really helpful for the game itself, and in many cases even harmful (you know, like making the ‘other way’ of getting items a boring grind) but that is how it works. Doing this should create a buzz. People who did not have the gold to buy it might have spent money to be one of the early birds to have this items. When it get released again maybe also more people might get it being afraid it will go away again.

Now you can dislike that, I agree, I would also rather have them focusing on the game and earning money that way instead of having to do these sorts of things. But then again, you say yourself “as a long time supporter of Gw1/Gw2 and the Gem Store in which I have put a lot of money into I am very angry and disappointed by this..”. As a longtime supporter of that cash-shop and with putting in much cash in it you supported this behavior.

If you don’t like such things you should not have supported in the first place. Or maybe you didn’t oversee the consequence and believe in the dream ‘I support the game by throwing my money at their cash-shop’. Anyway, it’s your own behavior that resulted in this. So don’t blame Anet, blame yourself.

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

Caedmon.6798:

Do you even understand what p2w means ?
That’s buying Stat increase items,Stronger weapons,Armor with higher base stats that would give you an edge over your opponent just for laying down money while others can’t. There is None of this in the gemstore.

So you define what Pay 2 Win is?

Isn’t Pay 2 Win simply Paying too Win? And if winning it getting the best cosmetics, is paying to get the best cosmetics not paying to win?

Why would paying for stats be pay to win? Because getting best stats is winning for you?

You are not “winning” by getting better cosmetics. There is no contest and “win” for best looking character, or best looking sword in the game. There are no beauty contests so what exactly are you “losing” if the person next to you has a legendary or two?

If seeing players with shinnies makes you feel like you lost something, turn down character details. Problems solved.

“There is no contest and “win” for best looking character, or best looking sword in the game. There are no beauty contests." i am pretty sure for many that contest very much exists.

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

People simply allow too much junk from companies, that’s why we also get it. Earning it in game would be better than buying it looking at the game-play. That’s a fact as buying it, is no game-play. So why making up excuses for it?

Well, getting those skins through gameplay IS the prefered option of course. But for me, there is no difference between “horrible grind to get something” and “using real money to get something”. There is also the “got extremely lucky” option, you get an expensive drop through RNG, sell it, make loads of gold and buy anything on the gem store for “free”.

How is that any different than using real money to get the same item? One requires a real job, the other requires luck, the end result is the exact same, someone got something without putting any gameplay effort.

I dislike all of those equally, but having the option to buy gold with real money has two great benefits:
a) actually makes my game better because the company also makes money out of it from those who are unwilling to grind.
b) it reduces the amount of RMT gold selling, because the company is doing the same thing “legit”

In an ideal world we wouldn’t have to grind like mindless zombies to get what we want. However, having those real money conversions doesn’t harm the game, at least as much as the RNG does.

“In an ideal world we wouldn’t have to grind like mindless zombies to get what we want. However, having those real money conversions doesn’t harm the game” The start of your sentence is one of the reasons it harms the game. the thing you say it does not in the second part of that sentence. In addition there is the fact that the game-play that could have come with the reward (hunting it down) is gone.

And really, the RNG isn’t an option for many items is it? It’s not like many things have items drop with a reasonable RNG. Especially not for the items in the cash-shop.

And really, does it help to get money from those who don’t like to mindlessly grind gold? Only a very few of them, other stop playing the game, while they could also have been buying expansion if they got release on a little faster pace.

Anyway, my real question was already answered with your first sentence.

“Well, getting those skins through gameplay IS the prefered option of course.” that is what it is about. That is preferred so if possible that should be the way to implement it and imho that is possible, it just requires a shift of their focus for income.

Caedmon.6798:

Do you even understand what p2w means ?
That’s buying Stat increase items,Stronger weapons,Armor with higher base stats that would give you an edge over your opponent just for laying down money while others can’t. There is None of this in the gemstore.

So you define what Pay 2 Win is?

Isn’t Pay 2 Win simply Paying too Win? And if winning it getting the best cosmetics, is paying to get the best cosmetics not paying to win?

Why would paying for stats be pay to win? Because getting best stats is winning for you?

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

Schumi.4285:

~

Define better? Is a more flashy or better look not better? Especially in a game based so much on cosmetics? You can also get them faster when spending cash.

It does not make it unbalance but that’s about it.

And winning.. in some games winning might be killing or completing a mission, in GW2 winning seems to be getting the best looking things. Again that is of course personal.

So you for sure can consider it P2W if you consider this games main focus being on cosmetics. On the other hand, that is personal. For people who don’t care about cosmetics and play a lot of WvW it’s clearly not.

And why exactly do you care how someone else got his shinnies? And why should you care how he got them?

Do you also care if someone got it with super luck and by offering sacrifices to the RNG gods?

Why is getting something cosmetic through real money considered so bad and getting it through horrible RNG is not. I see them as both exactly the same, someone got a shinny before me, period, nothing more.

If there was something that you could never get by playing the game then I’d agree it’s P2W, but there is nothing you can’t get by playing the game, even things on the gem store.

“And why exactly do you care how someone else got his shinnies?” first of all the problem is that at this moment for many of those there are only 2 options.. grind, grind, grind gold or buy it. So where is the game-play of chancing them in-game? A game-play I personally like a lot and do on other mmo’s, hunting down those items. In GW2 it’s not there!

And then why is it important how other people get it. If you can simply buy an item it completely devaluates the item from a game-play perspective. If you would get it as a reward you know he had to complete that content (think liadri) but what does for example a Legendary tell me? He brainlessly grinded gold for a long time or spend real cash on it. That it not valuable from a game-play perspective.

Do you also care if someone got it with super luck and by offering sacrifices to the RNG gods? If it was RNG it might be supper luck, but if somebody has multiple of those items it’s less likely to simply be luck. But sure RNG items would be less valuable from a game-play perspective as direct rewards for some challenging content are.

“Why is getting something cosmetic through real money considered so bad and getting it through horrible RNG is not.” I do not say getting it through horrible RNG it not bad.

“If there was something that you could never get by playing the game then I’d agree it’s P2W, but there is nothing you can’t get by playing the game, even things on the gem store.”
Funny thing is that by applying this logic to many of the games that are considered and known for being P2W, they would not be P2W because in most of those games you can still earn all those things in-game. It just requires an endless boring grind for coins.

People simply allow too much junk from companies, that’s why we also get it. Earning it in game would be better than buying it looking at the game-play. That’s a fact as buying it, is no game-play. So why making up excuses for it?

Brother Grimm.5176:

The misuse of the term, “Pay 2 Win”, is rampant on these forums. Obtaining a convenience item or something that is a “shortcut” is NOT “WINNING”.

The term refers to being FORCED to pay RL money to PROGRESS in a game in some manner. Nothing purchase-wise in GW2 is even close to being FORCED (ok, I’ll concede that not purchasing some extra storage would make the game difficult, but there are long term players that still only have ONE bank tab). Beyond that, EVERYTHING is optional.

Outfitting all your characters in Ascended gear and Legendary Weapons is only “WINNING” in your own mind….

Lytalm.5673:

Lytalm.5673:

Why are we even caring about stupid post like that?

because the post is actually about a legitimate issue, even if the solution isnt feasible. This is a line anet has to walk carefully, and try to come up with a balance that works.

While I am not one of those that blindly believe that the Gold/Gems / Visa-Versa exchange is fully driven by player supply/demand (I think those that do are gulible), I also don’t think Anet manipulates it to make money (but let’s not fool ourselves that they aren’t capable of doing so without anyone having any knowledge of it).

Some players seem to believe that Anet is here for the sole purpose of providing them endless free entertainment and somehow the concept of making a profit on said entertainment provision is an EVIL thing. Their continual self-delusion and battle against this EVIL concept is what 95% of these threads are really about.

So if you join a contest and you can win a painting or flowers it’s not winning because it is just a cosmetic item you win? It would only be winning if you would get something like a sweater because that is able to keep you warm so has ‘useful’ properties? Nonsense of course. Winning is winning and if you can buy items you would otherwise be able to win in the game you could consider it P2W.

The term P2W simply originated from PvP games where they sold stats that let you kill other not paying members easy. (so that is also not like you say, forcing you in order to progress) usually those not paying members could still get the same stats but it simply would require an endless boring grind (just as that’s true for cosmetics in GW2). That however does not mean you could not consider cosmetics also P2W especially if the game is all about cosmetics like GW2. Using caps to says that’s not the case does not make it true. something a lot of people also seem to think on these forums.

Schumi.4285:

A short definition of “pay2win-Games” from Urban Dictionary:
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

You can neither buy better gear nor can you craft them faster as anyone actually playing the game. Even if you buy the best gear (i.e. legendary weapons) then you’re still not stronger as someone with ascended gear. You may look more shiny but that’s about it. So there’s also no imbalance given.

Side note: You would even have to spend ridiculous amounts of money to get legendary weapons.

So, OP, there is absolutely no p2w given here.

p2ls (pay to look shiny) maybe but it’s not for the win

Not even the “boosters” in the shop will give you advantages to someone actually knowing how to handle his character by playing for a while.

BUT
the topic is interesting anyways since:

- ANet makes money with the shop
- ANet only makes money if people buy gems for real cash, not for gold.
- This said, giving tons of gold to players actually harms their own income.
- Because they don’t want to destroy their income, RNGesus does not listen to your prayers.
- Drops are not worth a lot.

so IF (and that’s a big, big IF) ANet removes the gold->gem conversion and people had to actually spend real cash to get gem store stuff, ingame drops could be way better and everyone could have one or two legendary weapons easily, because it does not matter if people are hoarding gold. Traders could not buy fancy costumes, not even with 1000s and millions of gold.
But as long as gold interferes with ANets monthly income, you will always find gold sinks and RNGesus mechanisms all over the game.

Just my 2 cents…

Define better? Is a more flashy or better look not better? Especially in a game based so much on cosmetics? You can also get them faster when spending cash.

It does not make it unbalance but that’s about it.

And winning.. in some games winning might be killing or completing a mission, in GW2 winning seems to be getting the best looking things. Again that is of course personal.

So you for sure can consider it P2W if you consider this games main focus being on cosmetics. On the other hand, that is personal. For people who don’t care about cosmetics and play a lot of WvW it’s clearly not.

Sinifair.1026:

I couldn’t believe my eyes when I saw it.
- The amount of players who were happy with the Balthazar armor set just being an outfit in the Gem Store.
(Disclaimer: It seemed to be the understanding that the set was going to be an outfit in the Gem Store. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. The thread was named “Balthazar Outfit – Thanks!!!” )

tl;dr:
To summarize:

• Balthazar Armor Set in Gem Store is a waste of potential!
• The armor worn by the Bookah Gods are in the “Legendary” category!
• There is too much awesome lore and potential content, dungeon, boss fight or some other that should be tied to rewards of such magnitude as this!

The Actual Post + rants
Just in general, armor sets that are inspired by the GODS themselves are not Gem Store material.
- That is reward-material after doing some content that proves that YOU have what it takes to receive god-like status.

“Don’t like it? Don’t buy it!” – Yeah, I read those comments.
- Fact is, I like it. I absolutely adore that armor set, and I am an advocate for all the armor sets that are displayed with the gods to make it into the game world, however, the Gem store is not the way to go.
- It tells me that at ANet, they cares less about making awesome content to go with the rewards, than they do about making some easy money. And this is easy money, because it’s the Balthazar armor set! Practically every GW fan would want it.

ANet, I beg of you to do these armor sets justice and make some content worthy of having rewards coming straight from the Godly Armoury!
- Otherwise you’re sucking whatever value there was in these sets out of them.

When I tell my friends how I got an armor set like that, how’d you like me to regale them of such an epic tale?

1. “I vanquished foes of unimaginable power and after overcoming overwhelming odds I was blessed by the Gods with this mighty armor!”
2. “I bought it..? But seriously, guys, there are other ways to get cool armor sets in GW2! … Guys..?”

My friends weren’t GW1 veterans like myself, and so they are not as invested, thus I’ve mostly played by myself and with guilds that simply dried out, sadly.
- My friends have a rekindled interest in the game after the announcement of an expansion came along.

We all agree that GW2 is a game with the potential to be so much more than it currently is.
- The Balthazar outfit incident here has made them and myself question whether ANet is competent enough to be trusted with the future of this game, since the possibility for actual content of epic proportions along with rewards that are just as epic seems to get a Gem Store treatment, when the game needs more content that seriously challenges the players’ ability to work together and rewards them for overcoming said challenges through cunning use of combo fields, skill and teamwork.

- Need I explain to all of you that these amor sets are in the category of “Legendary”
And you just want it as a Gem Store item instead?!? It doesn’t compute!

And you’re better than that, ANet!
- I get that you need to make money, and I’m not an Anti-Gem-Store fanatic, but there is just too much potential for awesome and incredible content tied to these particular sets. It would be a waste to just have them placed in the Gem Store!

If it is your current course of action, please reconsider!

I agree but that is true for all items, not just these outfits. All items, being it skins or finishers, or mini’s could add o the game-play. But when in the cash-shop they only add to the grind but add nothing to the gameplay. that is the problem with the cash-shop focus. Something you should not have in a B2P game but in a F2P game.

But then again, that is the same I am saying here for like 2 years now and every knows that by now. Still it’d god to see more and more people running into this and so agreeing on it. Of course you look at it specifically for items you care about (those outfits) but for others it might be any of the other items in the shop. What is important for you is personal. That is why I talk in general.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

lordkrall.7241:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

From what I can tell by reading the other threads, outfits that absolutely no one would want as an armor.

That doesn’t really say anything though. And I find it extremely unlikely that they would ever find such a thing (and that it would sell as well as these god outfits.

That was sort of my point.

I was trying to say that what they are essentially asking is no outfits at all as every outfit is a potential armor set for someone. Since they are asking for no outfits but only armor and since if ANet put armor in the gemstore then there would be an outcry about that, then there is nothing comparable that they can suggest to bring money into the gemstore.

Then again, this game was sold / advertised as B2P game so there should not even be a need to get the money from the cash-shop. It should come from the game and expansion. Of course that is never going to be enough if you have an expansion once ever +- 3 years, it would be if you had it every year.

Anyway, the ‘they need to earn money from the cash-shop’ is really a bad excuse in a B2P game, it would be a completely valid excuse in a F2P game however. Personally I do not care so much for costumes but it adds up to the grind. Play for something directly vs grind gold for it. (or buy it with cash.. but that is not playing the game).

“don’t have enough time to farm money for legendary” I would consider it grinding, not farming. But how about this. Instead of only giving the option to buy your things (being it for a legendary or any other items / skins / services / animation (like mail and finisher animations) ) or grind gold for them… Make them also, and best available in the game to play directly for them. Like how it works in most (none F2P) games. Complete a dungeon and get it, or JP x has 5% chance to drop item Y (and so on).

Pretty much boils down to this topic: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/

But the problem you have now is that if they would remove the gems > gold conversion they would most likely also have to remove the gold > gems conversion.

Now they can always hide behind “but you can get it with gold”, if you grind grind grind. What is fine according to Anet because it does not fit into their no-grind-philosophy.

But without that option it would only be acceptable if the cash-shop would finally become what it should be in a none F2P game. So putting almost everything in the game, only having a few things left in the cash-shop like transferring or full-makeover or race-changer or additional character slots, name-change or maybe even the full game and the expansion or merchandise. But only that sort of ‘out of game’ services and products.

Ashen.2907:

We were told fairly early on that there would be grind for cosmetics. Was that ever in doubt ?

I did never hear that claim tbh. A B2P game that was introduced with buzz statements like no grind and only about fun, for casuals that is based around cosmetics. There I do not expect cosmetics to be a boring grind but being built in as rewards for interesting content, being built in the core system of the game. (They did an attempt to have that with legendaries and with the scavenger hunt for the precursor in HoT that might have been oke)

I then expect many fun crafts like musician, toy-maker, inventor, mini tamer and so on. I expect the game to reward that sort of cosmetics for that sort of fun content as this would make all those buzz statements true. But then again, maybe that was a false interpretation from my end. On the other hand, having cosmetics behind a boring grind, while other mmo’s not build around cosmetics have them available in a more interesting way, is not very positive for a game that claims all these things and is built around cosmetics.

If it comes to this cosmetics part GW2 should have completely been my game but on that part it completely failed to deliver and other games are doing a much better job. Guild stuff and WvW is what is still interesting for me in GW2 (And JP’s) and keeps me playing. For HoT I am really interested in the WvW changes and Guild-halls but it would be nice if the cosmetics hunts vs the current grind would also be improved.
Also in many other mmo’s that is a big part of the end-game and if you launch a game that is built around cosmetics you will attract people who like that stuff. But then you scare them away again by having that a grind. Anet might want to try an hold these people when they come back to have a look at HoT.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

I started what? Every reaction was did seem more like some angry yelling kid then somebody wanting to talk about the issue ad hand.

You started the talk about cosmetic appearances and how they were too expensive for you. And I suppose you might have had a point somewhere, except then you slid into this problem of disagreeing aesthetic sense, and then finally trying to dismiss it as a threadjack when you started that.

And now trying to repaint it all as some angry five-year old.

Really it comes off more as the nine-year old trying to pretend they didn’t bring up a subject when they started losing an argument. But then, that comparison is unfair. One of the two being compared is brighter than that.

Losing what argument? That there is grind, that people feel there is grind, that that is a problem? That if people who like to hunt down cosmetics run into a grind? That is not even something you can ‘lose’, thats just a reality and that’s all I have been saying. Not much to lose (or to win for that matter).

The thing is, you have always had your own parallel conversation going on, jumping from one subject to the other and why I still don’t understand. It really always did feel like you where mad because somebody did talk bad about your baby.

I mean seriously what is your point? You feel there is no grind and so nobody should? You don’t want people considering GW2 grindy? You said so much yet nothing at all.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

I always talk about currency grind mainly gold. Sorry to break your bad attempt ad being a jack.

I prefer Jane, honestly.

Of course, you started this one.

I started what? Every reaction was did seem more like some angry yelling kid then somebody wanting to talk about the issue ad hand.

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

“I’ve looked at many equippable cosmetic items”

Of course there is the thing that people are usually more interested in the better looking ones and then your 10g idea kinda go’s out of the door.

Not that it really matters, biggest problem was that everything was based on gold in stead of a direct way remember. And even if those items would all be 10 gold (what isn’t the case, whenever I see one I like it usually is well over 100G) the problem would still be there, while maybe less annoying, the hunt for items would still be destroyed and grinding gold would still be the only option to get all of them.

This is where it gets interesting because all of the best looking skins in game are very inexpensive. Not one of them costs more than 10-20 gold. Most of them cannot be purchased with gold or in the gem shop, they have to be earned by playing specific content such as specific dungeons for specific armor.

Every single 100 gold+ skin in the game is either flat out ugly, tacky, or a joke.

All opinion of course.

Sure but I have a feeling a lot of people would disagree with you. That is also one of the reasons those skins are expensive.. because people want them. You are lucky if you have a taste for the cheaper skins.

People wanting them doesn’t necessarily mean that people think they are attractive. Perceived rarity or prestige comes into play as well. I owned a lot of skins in GW1 that I disliked simply because it meant that I could say that I owned all of the prestigious skins in the game (except Dryad Bow).

I don’t doubt that a lot of people will disagree with my taste in weapon/armor skins. I know that some agree as well.

Well Anet at least tries to make ‘the best looking’ ones and puts them in the cash-shop (or at least attainable with help of the cash-shop) else there would not be enough reason for people to buy them.

Of course tastes are different but it’s easy to see how many of those skins are more shiny or more detailed or have more effects.

One good example would be the Guild back banner (5gold + 5Guild commendations) vs the Mist Herald Back Item (67 gold). The first is much smaller and so less visible then the second one.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

“I’ve looked at many equippable cosmetic items”

Of course there is the thing that people are usually more interested in the better looking ones and then your 10g idea kinda go’s out of the door.

Not that it really matters, biggest problem was that everything was based on gold in stead of a direct way remember. And even if those items would all be 10 gold (what isn’t the case, whenever I see one I like it usually is well over 100G) the problem would still be there, while maybe less annoying, the hunt for items would still be destroyed and grinding gold would still be the only option to get all of them.

This is where it gets interesting because all of the best looking skins in game are very inexpensive. Not one of them costs more than 10-20 gold. Most of them cannot be purchased with gold or in the gem shop, they have to be earned by playing specific content such as specific dungeons for specific armor.

Every single 100 gold+ skin in the game is either flat out ugly, tacky, or a joke.

All opinion of course.

Sure but I have a feeling a lot of people would disagree with you. That is also one of the reasons those skins are expensive.. because people want them. You are lucky if you have a taste for the cheaper skins.

A lot of people disagreeing with Ashen, or myself, does not mean we are wrong. Especially on a case built on aesthetic appreciation.

If you like, though, I could start a list for you of things I have looked at on the TP and said “sure, that’s something I like” which has been under 10g to purchase. Just for the skin and not the functionality.

Not to mention it is actually cheaper to get my favorite set of armor as it requires Karma, and not Gold. But that would mean you’d have to agree there is a currency other than Gold or Gems in the game, so I won’t talk about those

. . . oops. I did anyway.

I always talk about currency grind mainly gold. Sorry to break your bad attempt ad being a jack.

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

“I’ve looked at many equippable cosmetic items”

Of course there is the thing that people are usually more interested in the better looking ones and then your 10g idea kinda go’s out of the door.

Not that it really matters, biggest problem was that everything was based on gold in stead of a direct way remember. And even if those items would all be 10 gold (what isn’t the case, whenever I see one I like it usually is well over 100G) the problem would still be there, while maybe less annoying, the hunt for items would still be destroyed and grinding gold would still be the only option to get all of them.

This is where it gets interesting because all of the best looking skins in game are very inexpensive. Not one of them costs more than 10-20 gold. Most of them cannot be purchased with gold or in the gem shop, they have to be earned by playing specific content such as specific dungeons for specific armor.

Every single 100 gold+ skin in the game is either flat out ugly, tacky, or a joke.

All opinion of course.

Sure but I have a feeling a lot of people would disagree with you. That is also one of the reasons those skins are expensive.. because people want them. You are lucky if you have a taste for the cheaper skins.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

“I’ve looked at many equippable cosmetic items”

Of course there is the thing that people are usually more interested in the better looking ones and then your 10g idea kinda go’s out of the door.

Not that it really matters, biggest problem was that everything was based on gold in stead of a direct way remember. And even if those items would all be 10 gold (what isn’t the case, whenever I see one I like it usually is well over 100G) the problem would still be there, while maybe less annoying, the hunt for items would still be destroyed and grinding gold would still be the only option to get all of them.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

~

I mean, you actually worked up “because there is some form of grind in GW2, it therefore is grindy”. It;s grindy for the people who run into that grind yes. What seems to be a lot of people considering the game is known for it’s grind.

“Some of these may be actual issues. Like the lack of Cantha, perhaps. "
So the difference between people suggesting / asking for a new type of content is the same as having a problem with current content. Again you logic makes no sense.

“should be developed from the forums. I mean, if that was the case we’d have to agree mounts are a fantastic idea.” Sit I say from the forums? No I diden’t but they sure should listen to feedback. Oow and about those mounts.. The hang glider sure have many simularities with mounts.

“I never actually said “it’s only grind if you need it”." No thats true, not litteraly but you did use the argument to basically act as if the grind wasen’t a problem because of that. What was more my point.

"

Ascended is grindy as heck.
It also is either “not mandatory” or “not BiS if downleveling”. Someone did the math once and showed it might be better to have an Exotic in there instead of Ascended in certain cases.

"

Oow and about the card game. GW2 also has some items only availible other ways. that still does not change the fact that when seeing an item in GW2 it’s most likely not in another way obtainable then by grinding gold while in that other game it most likely is a item you can hunt down.

Obtena.7952:

That’s part of the problem with your proposal … Complete X to get what … we are talking about Ascended right? I can guarantee you that X won’t be “Do a vista in Queensdale”. Either you complete many different X’s or you complete X many times to get BiS. You’re not proposing to reduce grind at all, just change it’s form.

No personally I am talking about many different interesting and / or fun rewards. Skins, toys, finishers, mini’s, crafting recipe’s and so on. But for other people that might be ascended gear I guess. Not something I really care about that much, for me that would at best be a nice to have for WvW so at least I know I am not in a disadvantage. But it’s not the type of stuff that drives me.

(x could be multiple things.. like a quest-chain but also one thing like kill a specific boss. But it’s one clear path to come to your goal / reward.)

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Addressing grind doesn’t ensure you get direct methods to get gear.

So that is why we (I) give a more detailed explanation as ‘there is grind, it should go’. While in all honestly I do not see how they would want to have no grind and not direct ways of getting it. Locking it behind a way to high RNG would create grind again, or at least extreme bad farms that aren’t any better.

If Anet were into drowning people with BiS loot, it would already be happening. Therefore, advocating getting rid of the current approach because it’s grindy, to replace it with something else you like, which will likely be as grindy, is nonsense.

You don’t really get it … if you want to complain about not having direct methods to get loot, tacking that into a ‘OMG game grindy’ thread doesn’t really work. Those aren’t the same issue. I understand the lengthy logic you have to say they are related but fixing one doesn’t guarantee the other because they are not THAT closely related. That’s just wishful thinking.

The complain is:

I like to hunt down items, Currently I can no do that / go directly for them but can only get them by grinding.

It’s not that lengthy is it. And again, thats why people don’t just say ‘remove the grind’ what you seem to apply, but they give a more detailed explanation what they dislike and what they would like.

I say it’s lengthy because changing one doesn’t necessarily affect the other. In fact, it’s so conditional it’s unlikely. Maybe lengthy isn’t the right word here but I think it’s not a stretch to understand that removing grind doesn’t immediately lead to the conclusion we need direct rewards from raids. I believe it naturally leads to the opposite; if you want direct rewarded loot, players are going to have to do repeated content for it. That’s not really accomplishing anything if the goal is to reduce grind.

I am not sure why you keep repeating raids and keep focusing on this element of repeated content. Only part of those ‘direct’ rewards would be the rng ‘repeating’ ones. Other would simply be complete x get y rewards. That does not require any repeating. So players would not always have to be repeating content for it.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Addressing grind doesn’t ensure you get direct methods to get gear.

So that is why we (I) give a more detailed explanation as ‘there is grind, it should go’. While in all honestly I do not see how they would want to have no grind and not direct ways of getting it. Locking it behind a way to high RNG would create grind again, or at least extreme bad farms that aren’t any better.

If Anet were into drowning people with BiS loot, it would already be happening. Therefore, advocating getting rid of the current approach because it’s grindy, to replace it with something else you like, which will likely be as grindy, is nonsense.

You don’t really get it … if you want to complain about not having direct methods to get loot, tacking that into a ‘OMG game grindy’ thread doesn’t really work. Those aren’t the same issue. I understand the lengthy logic you have to say they are related but fixing one doesn’t guarantee the other because they are not THAT closely related. That’s just wishful thinking.

The complain is:

I like to hunt down items, Currently I can no do that / go directly for them but can only get them by grinding.

It’s not that lengthy is it. And again, thats why people don’t just say ‘remove the grind’ what you seem to apply, but they give a more detailed explanation what they dislike and what they would like.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devata.6589:

The exact interpretation and how people feel it is subjective, that does not mean there is no general meaning for the word.

If you’re going to insist on using the word grind, and you’re going to insist on a definition, you should use ANet’s. After all, the thread topic was their philosophy.

The thread moved on after Colins statement. Besides again (so this is why I am repeating) the grind I talk about still is correct even following Colins statement about grind

There are certainly optional activities in the game players can embark on that I think we’d openly accept fall into the category of our definition of more “grindy”. Earning certain unique skins, and in particular some titles absolutely qualify as things we’d put on this list. Legendary weapons have components to them that fall into this category

The thread was about there being so much grind in this game while Anet talked about the “No grind philosophy” and thats for a big part because these types of grind that Anet does not try to remove with there no grind philosophy.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

No, my hostility such as it is, is reserved for people who argue from positions of logical instability and refuse to see that.

Logical instability meaning you don’t agree with it. I just said funny arguments where the ’it’s only grind if you need it’ and thats funny because it’s a logical instability so maybe your arguments are not so logical? Of course if you follow an not so logical line everything logical seems not logical.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Not a question, but I’ll retort for it anyway. What if that random chance happened to pick an item which is no longer available . . . ?

That would suck, just ask much as is does in GW2 (there are multiple). Also something I did complain about in the temporary content threads we had here as Anet was doing that a lot back then. Luckily we manage to change Anet’s mind on that. While also in those topics people where defending it.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

~

“Because you said the performance is an issue at the top”?

“If the grind is fine, why are we having this conversation at all?”
The grinders are are.. Those who like to grind can be happy in this game.

“We agreed some pages back grind is subjective, right? So please, stop and realize what you just said here is that grind”
The exact interpretation and how people feel it is subjective, that does not mean there is no general meaning for the word.

“But if people say it’s not so, then that is an affront? Seriously, why do you keep arguing with these logical absurdities?”
If many people say they feel grind that is a problem. Is that way it’s a true issue. Also of other people say they do not feel grind.

“I’m watching you play it up with funny arguments” Like what? Only funny argument I did see was ’it’s not grind because you do not need it’ and ’it’s irrelevant because it does not fits Colins definition of grind.’

Obtena.7952:

If your whole issue is that the game doesn’t have enough ways to get gear more directly, then what does that have to do with grinding?

That grinding a currency (mainly gold) is the only way for most items. A direct way can be way less grindy. It could be (but does not have to be) a farm but it’s then not the big gold grind there is now.

Obtena.7952:

Addressing grind doesn’t ensure you get direct methods to get gear.

So that is why we (I) give a more detailed explanation as ‘there is grind, it should go’. While in all honestly I do not see how they would want to have no grind and not direct ways of getting it. Locking it behind a way to high RNG would create grind again, or at least extreme bad farms that aren’t any better.

Obtena.7952:

Seems to me you’re just using the premise of ‘game too grindy’ to justify a shift in paradigm on an unrelated issue.

It’s completely related. I want to go for an items direct but I can’t, there is only the grind way. Thats how and why they are related.

DavidH.7380:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

DavidH.7380:

I think it is fair for everyone to want to have stuff that is achievable at their level/skill/dedication/style, but also means having to accept that most people aren’t going to be able to get everything that exists to be obtained, or even close to it. From what you’ve said before, I think that is a reality you acknowledge as well, but that tends to get overlooked as people argue about one side or another as if they aren’t all necessary to keep as many players as possible happy and playing.

If it was clear to people that you aren’t trying to argue that grind should be eliminated, but rather that you want so see added ways to obtain stuff directly from existing content, then you might find people less inclined to instinctively oppose your ideas. I find people tend to be fairly accommodating of other play styles as long as they don’t see the requests as damaging to other’s play and rewards.

My problem is how the argument continues to ignore fine details like, oh, facts . . . in favor of whipping up an anti-grind sentiment. I find it noble to aspire to that ideal of a game with no grind, but I find it . . . a little misguided to think it is possible to actually think it plausible on a broad scale like an MMO. Even Minecraft is grindy.

I agree, which is why I’m slowly trying to shift the conversation a bit. I don’t think it is possible to get anywhere unless we can all acknowledge that grind is fundamental at this point in game design history, we aren’t getting rid of it anytime soon, so the hope isn’t getting rid of grind but finding a way to coexist with it. Of course, fundamental to coexisting with it is accepting that we can’t have it all. Only when we can talk about having non-grindy rewards tracks that are designed for non-grinders that are good enough to be rewarding, while accepting there will still be stuff for grinders that we can’t get without doing the grinding, do we even have a chance of starting a conversation that isn’t all about arguing.

In fairness to Devata, that isn’t his only, or maybe even his primary issue. When he talks about what he really wants, it seems his biggest issue is that he finds hunting down, directly obtaining, and collecting rewards to be the main thing he enjoys. Things like ice elementals having a chance to drop an ice elemental mini, earth elementals dropping earth elemental minis, and a collection for obtaining all elemental minis. This is typically considered a farm, but with a low enough drop rate it comes dangerously close to the precise definition of grind that Colin gave, and the RNG can be frustrating, so the game typically makes stuff less directly farmable but allows it to be purchased with gold or tokens. That fixes the problem of people complaining that they’ve killed 10,000 ice elementals and never gotten a mini, but it causes a new problem for people like Devata who can’t practically farm the drop directly and for whom farming tokens or gold and buying the item negates all the fun of getting it.

Of course, getting out of the “whaaa! grind!” and “do the work or do without!” cycle would be the first step to getting anywhere, so I was trying to see if I could prod things past the grind issue and on to more of a, “yeah, there is grind, but lets talk about if there is enough other stuff you can find something to do and enjoy anyway” direction.

“he finds hunting down, directly obtaining, and collecting rewards to be the main thing he enjoys. " One of the main things and the mini examples is also one of the ways I like to obtain them yes, but getting it rewarded from a challenge like a dungeon, a quest or something like liadri is also fun to me. Mix it up a little.

Other then that you are spot on.

I also never said the game would have to remove all options of grind, I simply said there should also be the more direct option as well. There are other games who manage to do it so why would it not be possible in GW2? The cash-shop is an issue here (don’t want to go into that as I don’t want to change the thread into that direction, but it’s easy to see how an item in the cash-shop is only available the grind way) and that is also one of the reasons you see me talk so much about the expansions vs cash-shop focus in the forums. But in general games do not have to be designed to be grindy.

Cameirus.8407:

We can argue definitions all day, it does not matter.
My opinion (and thats all anyone can give) is that after playing MMOs for over a decade, GW2 is the most grindy game I’ve yet to play. Thats just how it feels. did not used to feel like this, not back in beta…..but post launch, with multiple currencies, skins being RNG attained, the trait rework, the legendary system, the disappointmetn of the events system, and now with masteries on the horizon…….its just all grind to me.

Your milage may differ, but thats my impressions.

Yeah thats my point. Why do I always need two pages for it? Probably because I want to explain everything with examples and into detail.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

My problem is with how grind has been continually redefined by each person who has taken part here – mostly so they can disagree with the one Colin provided. And yet there hasn’t been a “so grind is a subjective measurement” agreement despite all evidence that it is subjective to the person.
~
I find it noble to aspire to that ideal of a game with no grind, but I find it . . . a little misguided to think it is possible to actually think it plausible on a broad scale like an MMO. Even Minecraft is grindy.

Really.. You think people are here just to disagree with Colin? Well at least now I understand your hostility.

No, people are here because they see a lot of grind, they like to do or earn specific stuff but the only way for them to do so is by grinding or they should simply ignore all that. They are not here to just disagree with Colin.

They simply explain the grind they run into and that is 100% valid and does not matter if fits or does not fit into the no grind philosophy. They simply have an issue with the game and talk about that here. As much as you have an issue with the NPE and talk about that.

But I guess if you say anything about that you are also just wanting to disagree with Anet right..?:S

Oow and about that definition you seem to keep telling people are making up but is not a definition Colin agrees with or whatever….

AGAIN:

There are certainly optional activities in the game players can embark on that I think we’d openly accept fall into the category of our definition of more “grindy”. Earning certain unique skins, and in particular some titles absolutely qualify as things we’d put on this list. Legendary weapons have components to them that fall into this category

So yes also Colin agrees this is grind! (why would he not, it’s a general meaning of the word grind. Only people who try to talk away the grind try to say it’s not grind) All Colin did say was that these types of grind are not the grind they are trying to prevent with their no grind philosophy.

And what people now here say is. “Well that might be so. But we do still dislike that grind a lot. Being it part of the grind you try to prevent or not.”

Thats all.

There is also nothing misguiding about asking this.
A game like WoW does not have this type of grind so much. If I picked a random mini there, there is a 90% change (no real number!) that I can just go hunt it down in the world. Same for most cosmetics.

DavidH.7380:

In fairness, I think there is a bit of a point in those arguments that you are dismissing a little too readily. There is “necessary to see/play all the content/story in the game” grind, and that does make a fair bit of difference in how optional it is, though not in any way that is related to your personal issues with grind.

The problem is that it’s a personal preference. That is only important ‘if’ you want to do that. Many people here trying to downplay the grind also say.. You only need to do it ‘if’ you want those cosmetics. Well those so called ‘necessary things’ you only need to do / get if you want to do that content.

From a players ‘fun’ perspective it’s exactly the same. As much as some people hate it to get locked out of some content, so much other people hate it that working towards cosmetics can only done by grinding. And then there is of course the question of content. Is hunting down items not content? Is playing with looks of your character not content?

DavidH.7380:

I’ll grant you there is a fair bit of that, but can you meet me part way too? What if there were cool minis and skins that were exactly the way you describe, but also enough minis and skins collections that were obtainable by completing content and or reasonable amounts of farming that you could keep yourself entertained hunting down those. Would that be an acceptable trade-off?

That was already a part of how I explained I would design the reward system. I talked about that multiple times in this thread. Here is a full explanation (same is also placed in this thread but could not find it so the link is to another thread). https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/RNG-as-a-concept-Discuss/page/18#post4758907 so that is not someting I ever said I would be against. Some farming is fine as long as it’s a doable farm and it’s a mix of things in stead of basically only have the grind option available.

DavidH.7380:

If it was clear to people that you aren’t trying to argue that grind should be eliminated, but rather that you want so see added ways to obtain stuff directly from existing content, then you might find people less inclined to instinctively oppose your ideas. I find people tend to be fairly accommodating of other play styles as long as they don’t see the requests as damaging to other’s play and rewards.

I also made clear multiple times that grinding would still be an option for most rewards out there. I think that most of those trying to defend Anet here or try to downplay the grind complain many people have simply feel there baby is getting spoken badly of so will defend it.

I mean, does anything anybody complains about really effects the people going so strongly in the defense here? I don’t think so. So why are they here to go against it. And during the thread we did even see them having to make a shift from simply acting as if if did not exist, grind having a different meaning to now it being there but not being a problem. I think it’s simply some sort of defense mechanism as soon as they see say somebody ‘bad’ about GW2. And well if people say GW2 feels grindy to them while one of the apposed selling points are that it’s grind-free that is bad right. So they come in and defense it but that does not mean people don’t feel the grind and that there are better solutions.
They are also not doing there baby any favor because if you ignore all the issues people (not them.. but people) are having with it, it’s not goof for the game.

Here you have a game all about cosmetics but if you like to hunt down cosmetics you should go play another game. That is a little sad don’t you think.

Ominous.7583:

Again You do NOT have to get a legendary or ascended armor to play effiecently.
level 80 greens will get you through things everything else is OPTIONAL IF YOU WANT TO GRIND FOR IT !

I like the game therefor I took the time to make Twilight for example do I need twilight to complete level 80 personal story content ? be good at spvp or wvwvw with it ? No I did not NEED IT I WANTED IT therefor I took the time to make it.

Any grind you do in this game is purely OPTIONAL, You are not blocked from doing any content because your not in full exotics.

“Again You do NOT have to get a legendary”
Again.. irrelevant for what people like to do or find fun to do. It’s a game.. it’s not about what people have to get it’s about what people want to do!

“OPTIONAL IF YOU WANT TO GRIND FOR IT !” People WANT TO HUNT FOR IT!

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

~

“That still doesn’t change two things: this is something you choose to do rather than you are forced to do, and it has little impact on your performance in the game.”
You still seem to not understand that many people don’t care that much about ‘performance’ as is needing to have the max damage. Some care more about the visual part so then the cosmetics are more or at least just as important / fun as the performance are for others. Meaning it does not change a thing if it does or does not impact the performance. You can keep repeating that as long as you want but it does not change the fact that people run into this grind (you are now finally accepting) and dislike it. Performance or not is completely irrelevant for that. The game is for fun, not for performance.

“First, not my problem. I’m not their parent, I’m not their guardian, and I’m probably not their designated raider. They want to do it, fine ”
Then why are you here actively trying to downplay there complains because the grind is not ‘required’ or does not revolve around ‘performance’. We all know that.. we don’t care. You say thats fine, nobody ask you to parent them but don’t downplay the complete reasonable complain they have about this.

“just don’t come to me trying to convince me it was necessary you spent $100 on those cool shoes because everyone else was wearing them. K, thx, bai.”?? I don’t see how this even closely fits into to argument but oke whatever.

“Gold isn’t hard to come by, so long as you are patient.  ” First of all, my example did how why patient will only put you more behind and secondly, I do not wait to get rewards, I want to actively play for it.. You know it’s a game.. you play. And I can do that but then the only way is grind. And thats what the people complain about.

“If you want to keep championing for the downtrodden grinders ” Uhhm.. no the grinders are fine. It’s those that want fun ways to hunt down the items in stead of grinding.

“You need to step up your rhetoric because I’ve seen it all before and there’s nothing new here.” What would there need to be new. Thats all there is to it but somehow some people always feel the need to downplay it like if the problem is not there.

“In fact, you keep repeating the same thing.” 100% true because I keep answering to the same arguments all the time. Or do you think you said anything new? “It’s grind because I say it’s perceived as grind.” No it’s grind because it’s grind even Colin named it grind and even you just referred to it as grind. “I know how people run into it and see it as grind.” If ‘people’ see it as grind, it is grind right.. thats how words work.

“it’s the RNG which makes specific items rare enough to have the price high enough you feel it’s a necessary grind.” RNG is indeed an important part of the result for the grind if it comes to the items that are directly available in the game yes. That has also been mentioned before multiple times I think. Of multiple items have no rng on them and still require grind (a finisher for example). So it’s a mix of things but RNG is indeed one of the reasons yes. Doesn’t mean it’s the grind (the effect of that rng) that people dislike and complain about.

“I say it is so it must be so” That is then almost as good as your “I say it’s not so, so it can’t be so”
Thing is, if many people do feel the grind (they feel it’s so) that makes a relevant point to debate here. So in a we yes “if people say it’s so, it is so.”

“we have to do it because we must get the shiny.” No.. It’s the only think we can do if we want to be shiny. And people like more fun ways then grind. But for some reason you seem to think you need to downplay this with funny arguments as ‘you don’t need it’. What was, is and stays irrelevant for how people want to play and enjoy a game.

Obtena.7952:

Deadcell.9052:

I guess I was complaining and didn’t realize it LOL, the reason I felt this game is not that grindy is because I learned a long time ago that grinding in this game is a complete waste of time, I personally found I made no strides what so ever in what I wanted to achieve and no longer do it. All those vanity items like unique skins, ascended stuff, legendary’s etc I basically look at as unattainable and no longer waste my time trying for those things, I just log in, do what I enjoy, mostly WvW and PvP and log off, completely ignoring any and all things that would be considered grindy, I guess its been so long with that mindset I no longer look at Gw2 as a grindy game.

This is worth recognition. Once more people break out of their stigmas established from other MMO’s, they will realize the same thing. GW2 is something much different below the surface.

With the difference that in those other MMO’s there is not such a bad grind for these sorts of things. But it nice to see you now seem to agree with all the grind being there but you feel people should simply ignore it. Well I do, still I would love to have this part of the end-game available (hunting down items) and then without the grind-way but an fun (may be challenging) way.

Deadcell.9052:

Devata.6589:

Deadcell.9052:

I personally do not find the game all that grindy, its the RNG tied to the grind that is the killer. You can essentially play this game forever and not progress what so ever, especially when it comes to legendary’s, if you have bad RNG like myself and many others the road to a legendary can feel like an endless hopeless grind as there’s nothing one can do to progress towards that goal besides farming gold in hopes the in game economy doesn’t price you out of the items you need. Ascended weapons and armors are a bit more forgiving but again requires another boring time gated gold grind if you have bad RNG. I personally find the bad RNG in this game to be the main cause of why this game can feel so grindy at times for its vanity items not so much the grind itself. Its only saving grace is its all voluntary not mandatory. I have all 8 classes with minimum of 3 builds for each, it would take me 100 lifetimes to get them all geared in legendary’s and ascended if I was lucky enough.

What this game desperately needs are items that are earned purely through skill based activities, this game sorely lacks that.

You start with saying you don’t find it that grindy to then come with the ‘complain’ that describes the grind many people are complaining about.

“there’s nothing one can do to progress towards that goal besides farming gold in hopes the in game economy doesn’t price you out of the items you need”
Well thats the grind so many people here complain about, not only for legendaries also for toys and cosmetics in general this is the case but yeah a legendary is the extreme version of that I guess.. That and the ascended stuff.

“What this game desperately needs are items that are earned purely through skill based activities, this game sorely lacks that.”
And that’s what many of those complaining about the grind are asking for.

What you describe is exactly the grind people are complaining so much about here.

I guess I was complaining and didn’t realize it LOL, the reason I felt this game is not that grindy is because I learned a long time ago that grinding in this game is a complete waste of time, I personally found I made no strides what so ever in what I wanted to achieve and no longer do it. All those vanity items like unique skins, ascended stuff, legendary’s etc I basically look at as unattainable and no longer waste my time trying for those things, I just log in, do what I enjoy, mostly WvW and PvP and log off, completely ignoring any and all things that would be considered grindy, I guess its been so long with that mindset I no longer look at Gw2 as a grindy game.

Yeah well I do the same now. Of course that grind is still there and I would still prefer to go for those items without that grind but in a fun more direct interesting way. But I do understand where you are coming from.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

That does not mean what you do is what somebody else basically has to do to earn get a reward and what is grind for them. Because exactly what you describing is what many people do or feel they have to do if they want to get a rewards simply because grinding gold is the only way and this is one of the most effective ways to grind gold.

It might not be grind for you, you might not do it for the gold and you might even just do it for fun but that does not mean it’s the grind other people talk about.

. . . they have to do in order to get a reward? I have a hard time picturing any necessary rewards which have this pattern of “do whatever I feel like doing tonight without any structure aside from tagging along with the gang”. It’s not even really grind since there’s really not a goal in mind to be grinding for. Unless you want to claim that’s grind, in which case I really don’t know what ‘grind’ is anymore.

But, yeah, you’re not listening to me anyway. You still are playing “pin the grind on the poster”. I play how I want to play, what I want to play, and when I want (or have time) to play. I pick something and go do it not for the reward but because “I want to do that today”.

. . . you want to pin “grind” on that?

Like I said before, go fish.

“I have a hard time picturing any necessary rewards which have this pattern”
Oow really, can you finally stop with all the necessary crap. NOTHING is necessary. If we where to take that seriously the whole subject of grind did not exist in any game as nothing is necessary.

You do not need to get to level 2 you can simply keep running around in level 1 in any mmo, you also do not need to go to the next zone and so it’s a choice and so even in the game where you have to grind to get to level 2 it’s not grind because it’s optional.

Just as much as I do not need to get a cool skin. It’s a choice. Some people say WoW is grindy because you ‘need’ to grind for the BiS gear what is funny as I played it for some time but never grinded for BiS gear. The whole ‘need’ is nonsense.

It’s always need if, and that if might be important for one person and not for the other. Getting a cool skin is more important for me then doing high level raids in WoW for example.

I will make a example for you step by step to show you how people run into this grind wall you don’t seem to see.

1. I see a guy with a cool looking weapon. I ask him what weapon it is and he tells me it’s the Chaos Sword.

2. I want to go on my way to ‘hunt’ for the sword. That is the way I like to play. Turns out, there is no in-game way for me to earn the thing, just buying it from the TP with gold.

3. Oke so if that part of how I like to play the game does not exist then lets not grind for it but earn it by doing the other stuff I do like to do in GW2. Guild-missions (3 gold a week), WvW (more of a defender but I do also run wit the zerg so lets say 5 gold a week), JP’s 1,5 gold a week (not like I keep doing them all over and over again, just a few for some fun)).

4. The cost for that skin is 245 gold so with 9,5 gold I would only need to ’play the way I want for 25,7 weeks. Of course there are also some more active weeks so lets be extremely generous and make it 10 weeks. (I personally would never earn that money in 10 weeks but I want to be generous here for your standpoint)

5. 3 weeks later I see another guy.. oow he has a nice mini it’s the Mini Largos (go back to step 2 and add cost for the Mini Largos).

6. Come to the conclusion that the hunting down items like I want (my way of playing the game I want) is not really available (few exceptions), getting any of these items will only be doable by earning more gold by starting to grind for it or simply ignore the items.

“I play how I want to play, what I want to play, and when I want”. That is great. All the people who complain about the grind wished they could do the same but they feel to get what they like the only option is grind.

“Like I said before, go fish.”
If that would be a craft Anet would implement where I would go on adventures to learn the secrets of fishing for specific fun items like a mini land-fish, and a cool scale armor set, and weapon-skins inspired by the see and cool toys I would love to do so.

DavidH.7380:

Devata.6589:

Anyway the progress I see is that while at the beginning there was still a group that strongly stated there was no grind, that group is still defending Anet but now saying stuff like. The grind is in fact a good thing to keep people playing, and but it’s pretty easy grind so you can earn money fast. So in general more people seem to agree there is grind. The question how bad it is is still there but then again, that id of course also a personal thing.

To summarize, technically, there is very little grinding in line with the A’net definition, but there is lots and lots and lots of farming. And farming can be a good thing…

Unless, you are just endlessly farming gold on the most profitable activities, or farming for hundreds of hours to get an only moderately rare skin, or something similar, in which case farming can feel exactly like grinding, even if it technically isn’t according to the official game definition.

Insert pages of arguments about when/why/how farming turns into grinding by another name.

Let me try to make it a little more accurate.

“technically, there is very little grinding in line with the grind Anet tries to prevent with it’s No-grind-philosophy”

And yes “Unless, you are just endlessly farming gold” I would indeed consider that grinding not farming because you are grinding for a currency not for an item. But you already did see that part was open for debate.

Still this thread moved to a more general consensus of this interpretation yes so I do feel it was a thread that not just run in circles but did in fact lead somewhere and the circle parts did show how many people feel differently about different things. While I have a feeling not many devs are still following it I do think it would be an interesting and useful thread for them to have followed, even if it was to understand the different idea’s and feeling different parts of there player-base have about this subject.

A subject I think is very important for HoT if they want to this time hold some of the players they did lose before. If they lose them again many of them will be gone forever imho.

Deadcell.9052:

I personally do not find the game all that grindy, its the RNG tied to the grind that is the killer. You can essentially play this game forever and not progress what so ever, especially when it comes to legendary’s, if you have bad RNG like myself and many others the road to a legendary can feel like an endless hopeless grind as there’s nothing one can do to progress towards that goal besides farming gold in hopes the in game economy doesn’t price you out of the items you need. Ascended weapons and armors are a bit more forgiving but again requires another boring time gated gold grind if you have bad RNG. I personally find the bad RNG in this game to be the main cause of why this game can feel so grindy at times for its vanity items not so much the grind itself. Its only saving grace is its all voluntary not mandatory. I have all 8 classes with minimum of 3 builds for each, it would take me 100 lifetimes to get them all geared in legendary’s and ascended if I was lucky enough.

What this game desperately needs are items that are earned purely through skill based activities, this game sorely lacks that.

You start with saying you don’t find it that grindy to then come with the ‘complain’ that describes the grind many people are complaining about.

“there’s nothing one can do to progress towards that goal besides farming gold in hopes the in game economy doesn’t price you out of the items you need”
Well thats the grind so many people here complain about, not only for legendaries also for toys and cosmetics in general this is the case but yeah a legendary is the extreme version of that I guess.. That and the ascended stuff.

“What this game desperately needs are items that are earned purely through skill based activities, this game sorely lacks that.”
And that’s what many of those complaining about the grind are asking for.

What you describe is exactly the grind people are complaining so much about here.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

I did not say you did that every night. So no need to repeat that. The thing is that many people do that because they want something and the only way they can get it is by making gold and to get that gold they exactly do what you describe there. For them it’s not about ‘things to do’ it’s about making gold. Then it does become grinding. It’s very nice that you happen to like those things other might not.

Hunting down an item, you know the thing I like to do is not really an option other then grinding gold. So I kinda stopped caring about that, but that also means a huge part of the end-game is none-existing in GW2.

Yeah, but you’re not listening . . . you’re focused on the “I make gold” part, or “I do this for Crests” or whatever.

I don’t. I don’t do it for the gold because I want the gold, or need the gold, or have a goal in mind. I do it because it’s something to do. Why, oh why, do you think I compare this all to GW1’s title grind? I didn’t start that until I ran out of other things to do either.

Seriously, we’re speaking past each other here. You’re obsessed with trying to pin grind on the post I made and the subsequent ones talking about it. (And you’re not alone.) It’s not grind so much as “meh, don’t have anything better to do” and still wanting to play the game rather than find some other game.

And, notably, I have found other games. I actually came up with a Settlers of Catan variant I play with my friends which basically doubles the board and adds in all the neat expansion ideas we liked while leaving some out due to clunk factor. I have a D&D group on hiatus where I’m trying to restructure the game so we can have a “refresher session” where everyone re-learns how to play 4e when we can meet again. I have a 3DS where I’ve got Bravely Default, Etrian Odyssey Untold, and Pokemon.

. . . I choose to play GW2 in the midst of all this, and it’s because I find it relaxing, interesting, and fun.

Go fish somewhere else. I’m not grinding or farming because I want something and need to meet some internal quota to reach it. I am playing the darn game as I see fit and enjoying myself. Especially when the WvW nights have some actual play going on instead of “let’s take their stuff while they sleep”.

That does not mean what you do is what somebody else basically has to do to earn get a reward and what is grind for them. Because exactly what you describing is what many people do or feel they have to do if they want to get a rewards simply because grinding gold is the only way and this is one of the most effective ways to grind gold.

It might not be grind for you, you might not do it for the gold and you might even just do it for fun but that does not mean it’s the grind other people talk about.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

When a person that is called Devata , thinks that doing over and over again the same raid for a cosmetic gear is a ‘’Friendly Farm’’ and when the company sais that doing over and over that Raid is called a ’’grind’’ , then Deavata must revalue her definitions of Grind and Farm and stop defines what is truly Grind or Farm to others .

When she cant understand that in the ’’Trains’’ You get GOLD+ EXOTIC GEAR + MATS based on your lvl + Luck ?
PPl always try to exploit the system , to maximize their rewards vs the time spent

When she cant understand that doing various things in the games , theres a chance to be rewarded with the same rewards … i dont know what to say

I can go too circles over circles if you wish till we close this thread .
Theres a new thread about Achentant , and i hope you dont hyjack it that too :P
(atleast not with 160 posts) :
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Ascended-gear-grind-is-OTT-ridiculous

Edit: cya tommorow

Oow so now I said I wanted to have people do raids over and over again to get rewards. Thats funny, you seem to keep coming up with things I said, that I did not say.

The thing I said that came closes to it was that ONE of the MANY direct ways to earn items (next to things like complete content x get rewarded for it, or do a quest and get rewarded for it) was the rng part that I said you could have an item for example in a dungeon (but also in a JP or something) with a doable rng. As in it’s not doing it over and over and over but there is more a reasonable limit to it because you have a more easy going (doable) rng.

Even more important, that would be exactly the type of items that would likely not be account bound! Some items not being account bound is also what I talked about because they allow to still let people like grind gold and buy it. So still not sure whats your problem. You are afraid if they would implement what I say you would have to do raids over and over again? Well don’t be, you can just carry on what you are doing. Maybe you sometimes have to do a JP or a dungeon once but thats about it.

I have no interest in that other thread as thats specifically talks about ascended stuff. The part I don’t care that much about.

Closing a thread where don’t agree with the conversation. So like censoring everything you do not like. Yeah thats a great idea.. especially if the facts aren’t on your side.

But seriously I wonder if you really don’t get it maybe misinterpreting things and thats how you keep coming up with things I said, that I did not say or that you are indeed just trolling.

Serophous.9085:

God this thread is just going in circles, brick walls talking to brick walls, no one looking outside to see if the game was catered to them, it could make it bad for others, etc etc. It can all be summed up so easily.

Player 1: this is my definition of Grind, this game fits it, this game is grindy.
Player 2: this is my definition of grind, yours is wrong, mine says the game isn’t.
Player 1: no mine!
Player 2: Mine!
Player 1 and 2: MIIIIINNNNNNNEEEE!
Anet: Hey guys! This is our definition!
Player 1: your definition is wrong! Mine is right! I can prove it cause many people said so!
Player 2: no, they matched my definition, so I’m right. You can’t prove many people!
Player 1: yes I can!
Player 2: how?
Player 1: because people say it in message boards and map chat and guild chat! That’s many!
Player 2: out of how many total players?
Player 1: that doesn’t matter! Its many!
Player 3: hey guys, you’re both wrong! My definition is this, so the game is grindy!
Player 1: see!? He agrees with me though his definition is wrong. Mine is correct!
Player 2: you’re both wrong, and I’m right.
Player 1: no mine!
Player 2: mine!
Player 3: mine!
Player 2: now let’s right long winded posts about our definitions, compare the game to other games with other different or same versions of grind to prove our points, not budge on any issue, attack each other for how the other plays, and continue on with the majority of the thread dominated by the same few people going around in circles.

Heck, this all reminds me when bill Clinton was on trial.

Yes and no. Sure some things keep coming back like that the definition however I also see some progress and think it’s also an interesting thread for dev’s to see how different people feel about it.

Anyway the progress I see is that while at the beginning there was still a group that strongly stated there was no grind, that group is still defending Anet but now saying stuff like. The grind is in fact a good thing to keep people playing, and but it’s pretty easy grind so you can earn money fast. So in general more people seem to agree there is grind. The question how bad it is is still there but then again, that is of course also a personal thing.

So here is my take on it.

The trait system is in it’s core great.. Much much better then all the grind for some currency to unlock or buy stuff like we see in many other places of the game. Finally something that sends you on a quest to work for something directly. Reasons to go into the world and do specific things. Great!

However there are 3 big flaws with it and a 4th you also have to take into consideration.

(I am just talking about unlocking a skill by doing content x, not the locking it behind a high level..)

1. It got added way to late. Of course people don’t want that at this point anymore. They are leveling there 4th, 5th or whatever alt. Thats already not the most fun thing. Now something they never had to worry about suddenly becomes an additional thing they need to do for the alts.
While I do think the trait system is something the game would have needed from the beginning I really don’t want to bother with it on my alts, just want to get them to 80.

2. It should have been account-bound.

3. The content you need to complete should make sense for the trait you unlock. That is kinda hard with traits but the HoT masteries would be a good example of that. Want the mushroom jump ability? Complete some JP related ‘quest’. Likely the person who is really interested in that jump ability will also like JP’s.
Those who simply want to unlock everything should also not complain about to having to play everything.
In fact unlock masteries that way would be way more fun and interesting then the boring WvW points system.. Do whatever, grind away points and buy the ability you what. Can it be any more boring?

So then that 4th thing you have to consider.
It’s not really a bug but GW2 is build in a kinda grindy way where people got used to just unlocking or earning things by grinding away. Not playing directly for anything. People who dislike that have for a huge part left the game. So you are left with a player-base that will be less interested in this. Give them some brainless grind and they will be fine.. well I think at least 50% of those left.

The approach you did go for with the trait system would be great to hold many of the people that already left back when they where still here and many of them will be coming back with HoT so that would be the point to introduce such mechanics to this time also hold those players and not lose them for ever.

What seemed to have happened is that Anet did noticed what the game was missing but introduced it at a very bad time. Better had saved this sort of stuff for HoT masteries and reward systems. (While also allowing for a grind approach of course to not alienate the player-base that like the grind way).

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Bernie.8674:

How are you getting 5g in two hours? I might get that on guild mission nights, by doing dungeons, or by engaging in concerted farming, but I’ve never gotten anywhere near that by playing casually the way you claim. I must be playing wrong. I’m stagnant somewhere between 20 and 25 gold right now.

World Boss Grand Tour. Log on, find which boss is up next, and do the circuit for an hour. Sell the Ecto from salvaging the rares, sell Silk if I really want to make the money, and sell all the blues and greens.

Drop into Silverwastes if it’s before 1am PST and generally will find an active map. Do events, and sell proceeds much like with the Grand Tour. This one moves faster and can be more lucrative.

Harvest any trees I see there, and then take a moment to go to Pagga’s Waypoint and find the motherlode of Cypress to the west – sell Foxfire Clusters.

I think the lowest I hit was 3.8 g on a night where I forged rares instead of salvaging and selling Ecto.

You gave a pretty accurate view of how many people play this game… Actively grinding gold. You just proved the reason for the existence of this thread.

It’s only a little strange that you do post in in an attempt to show how there is no need to grind, or you would not consider it grind.

Yeah but I don’t do that every night. I don’t want to keep repeating myself here. I have plenty of other options of stuff to do. Heck, two nights ago I never even logged in. Four nights ago I spent the whole time in WvW just messing around.

And it’s not about the darn gold. It’s about things to do. I happen to make gold doing it, which was what my point was about people claiming you had to sacrifice doing what you want to make gold. You don’t have to, and you don’t have to do dungeons or get super lucky instead of being super poor.

I did not say you did that every night. So no need to repeat that. The thing is that many people do that because they want something and the only way they can get it is by making gold and to get that gold they exactly do what you describe there. For them it’s not about ‘things to do’ it’s about making gold. Then it does become grinding. It’s very nice that you happen to like those things other might not.

Hunting down an item, you know the thing I like to do is not really an option other then grinding gold. So I kinda stopped caring about that, but that also means a huge part of the end-game is none-existing in GW2.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

“Champ Trains and Eotm Trains where/are the MOST REWARDING things !!” Yeah that is why people are grinding it.. Thats the subject here remember.

“if you calculate the time spent vs the rewards …..
Who dont want to maximize their rewards for less time ?” They do not want to grind.. again the subject.

Somehow I think you kinda mist the point people are talking about here.

The box sales is a nice comparison against GW1 expansion sales that did on average manage to generate 100% of the income of the original game sales. (all those excuses you come up with here could apply to GW1 as well)

What I said was that if GW2 would have an expansion every year and every expansion would have done the same they would have earned more money then they did now, however I also said I do not expect the HoT expansion to sell so much because damage has been done. So based on the HoT expansion sales they might not have earned more. That’s all I am saying.

OFC ppl want to MAXIMIZE THEIR REWARDS with MINIMUN TIME , like yourself that are are proclaimed as a Collector but you dont have to grind all these collections , becuase you dont have a lot of time to waste .
But wait a sec , you didnt say that they should bring more things ingame vs the cash shop ? But you still didnt say say that you have a time to grind/wast a lot of time in the game ?

What kind of person are you ?
Casual ?
Collector ?

AND THOSE PPL that choosed to follow the Trains , they did it on their decision to to maximize their rewards .
Because like yourself they think of it like a ‘’frendly Farming’’ with a minimun time to play the game = like yourself that said TAHT YOU DONT HAVE A LOT OF TiME OR DONT WANT WASTE A LOT OF TIME INTO PLAY THE GAME .

And again you dont know the cost of the Living Story and if combine it with the money needed to create the next expanion . And if the x-pack alone can cover it all that . That i am too saying

I am not sure what your point it, all I can conclude is that you seem to have no idea what people are talking about here or you are just trolling?

Yeah all you say about people maximizing there reward with the minimum time is true. but what they are doing is grinding for gold is it not? And what do we talk about here? The game being so grindy. You only confirm that, so I guess thats for agreeing with me?

What type of player I am? I don’t know.. how do you define collector or casual?
I care more for cosmetic stuff. Fun crafts (Not the ones you have in GW2 but you have some MMO’s where some crafts are all about making toy like things), collecting mini’s, mounts, skins or as ranger special ranger pets. That is the stuff I usually like to do in an MMO. I see a mini I like so I find out what I need to do for it to get it and got myself a new goal. Now in GW2 that 9 out of the 10 times is ‘grind gold’ what I dislike as I am not a grinder. For leader-boards or PvP I don’t care much (maybe guild leader board would be nice?_, for those things I play FPS games. I also could not care less about BiS gear, for me BiS gear is the gear that looks the best. Oow and in GW2 I also like JP’s and WvW and the guild stuff (In HoT that hopefully also includes guild-halls when implemented properly). So you decide for yourself what type of player I am.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

What is your problem Obtena?

It’s pretty simple; people can’t accuse Anet for making a grindy game based on whatever definition suits that purpose. That’s just self-serving justification and to expect Anet to even consider changing something in the game based on a subset of players personal pre-dispositions is nonsense; the game can’t be everything to everyone. Anet did not design the game around some random players arbitrary definition of what grindy means. People can’t seem to frame their ‘discussion’ around Anet’s clarification. I help with that.

People find the game grindy, many people do. So they tell it on the forum and even explain what they consider grind. What else can they do?

And in all honestly I also think you are downplaying the hole thing when you say “Anet did not design the game around some random players arbitrary definition of what grindy means.”. Many people find the game grindy, names as ‘grind wars’ don’t come out of nowhere. We all also know many people grind or do you want to act as if champ-trains never existed, or those grinding in EotM? We all know there is a lot of grinding going on and all that grind might not be the grind Anet tries to prevent with there ‘no-grind philosophy’ but ‘some random players arbitrary definition of what grindy means.’ it’s just downplaying of what is really going on. Like if this is some totally unknown definition of grind a few people talk about. That is just nonsense.

The only nonsense is again … you coming up with your own, not relevant to how Anet designs the game, definition of grind.

First of all, it’s not Anet’s definition of grind you seem to be talking about here. You are talking about Anet’s no grind philosophy. Thats something completely different. Read Colins post again.
“There are certainly optional activities in the game players can embark on that I think we’d openly accept fall into the category of our definition of more “grindy”. Earning certain unique skins, and in particular some titles absolutely qualify as things we’d put on this list. Legendary weapons have components to them that fall into this category.”

So that general meaning of the word grind you seem to discard as if it’s just the definition of a few people is at least also the definition of Colin. It just does not fit into there no grind philosophy.

Secondly.. The only think that would be irrelevant would be Anet’s definition as this is about how players feel about it. The fact they find it grindy. That is what people are talking about here. For that it does not matter how Anet would define it for them-selfs. People find it grindy so they give them feedback including what they find grindy. Clear and simple. Anet’s definition completely irrelevant.

If we would follow your logic you could close the hole forum because people might dislike something but heey Anet designed it as they wanted and consider it fun so if you do not consider that fun you should not talk about it because your definition of fun is irrelevant as it does not fit’s Anet’s vision.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Bernie.8674:

How are you getting 5g in two hours? I might get that on guild mission nights, by doing dungeons, or by engaging in concerted farming, but I’ve never gotten anywhere near that by playing casually the way you claim. I must be playing wrong. I’m stagnant somewhere between 20 and 25 gold right now.

World Boss Grand Tour. Log on, find which boss is up next, and do the circuit for an hour. Sell the Ecto from salvaging the rares, sell Silk if I really want to make the money, and sell all the blues and greens.

Drop into Silverwastes if it’s before 1am PST and generally will find an active map. Do events, and sell proceeds much like with the Grand Tour. This one moves faster and can be more lucrative.

Harvest any trees I see there, and then take a moment to go to Pagga’s Waypoint and find the motherlode of Cypress to the west – sell Foxfire Clusters.

I think the lowest I hit was 3.8 g on a night where I forged rares instead of salvaging and selling Ecto.

You gave a pretty accurate view of how many people play this game… Actively grinding gold. You just proved the reason for the existence of this thread.

It’s only a little strange that you do post in in an attempt to show how there is no need to grind, or you would not consider it grind.

Except we don’t know how most people play this game, that’s an assumption and not necessarily one that I would agree with.

I think most people are so casual, they wouldn’t know how to go about grinding gold if they wanted to. I think most people log in, do a few things, maybe a few dailies, maybe hang out with their guild…they kill some stuff, they log off.

I don’t think most people are farmers.

I said many, not most. I think many because while the game had very different type of players at the beginning many (we know that as a fact) did leave. So why? Well maybe because they didn’t like to grind for everything they wanted to earn in the game? So some of those who left will be indeed the ones that login do a few things while taking with the guild and log out again (the casuals you talk about, while the reason they are still here imho is the social interaction), the WvW people and then of course those who are fine with, or even like, the grind. That is a big group because we all can see them (EotM, champ trains, SL) so yeah.. many.

“I think most people are so casual, they wouldn’t know how to go about grinding gold if they wanted to.” It’s not like you need skill or can’t be a ‘casual’ to grind.. Ask and people will tell you to run with the zerg in location x, y or z. At that moment it’s just brainlessly running along and spamming some buttons. No problem for a ‘casual’ to do so, the question is however if he will like it and stay doing it.

I think it’s very interesting to think about this. Seriously.

So people who didn’t want to farm gold (which I don’t consider grinding myself by the way I consider it farming), left the game because it’s too hard to make gold or they have to farm more than they want to.

The question, of course, becomes, how many of those people exist, compared to people who stay who like to farm? How many people, like me, don’t care about farming but stay anyway?

See it really is a numbers game, but we don’t really have the numbers, and that’s where all these theories get stalled.

I’m not convinced that the numbers of people who leave this game due to too much “grind” is greater than the numbers of people who would have left if they had nothing to “grind” for.

And that really is what the debate is about.

Again, if you allow for a direct approach to get an item then that does not mean the grind option is gone as long as the items is not account-bound. So it did not have to be an ‘or’, it could have been an ‘and’.

Nobody here is asking to remove the ability to grind, people are asking to make it not the only viable option for most things in GW2. That’s a huge difference.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

What is your problem Obtena?

It’s pretty simple; people can’t accuse Anet for making a grindy game based on whatever definition suits that purpose. That’s just self-serving justification and to expect Anet to even consider changing something in the game based on a subset of players personal pre-dispositions is nonsense; the game can’t be everything to everyone. Anet did not design the game around some random players arbitrary definition of what grindy means. People can’t seem to frame their ‘discussion’ around Anet’s clarification. I help with that.

People find the game grindy, many people do. So they tell it on the forum and even explain what they consider grind. What else can they do?

And in all honestly I also think you are downplaying the hole thing when you say “Anet did not design the game around some random players arbitrary definition of what grindy means.”. Many people find the game grindy, names as ‘grind wars’ don’t come out of nowhere. We all also know many people grind or do you want to act as if champ-trains never existed, or those grinding in EotM? We all know there is a lot of grinding going on and all that grind might not be the grind Anet tries to prevent with there ‘no-grind philosophy’ but ‘some random players arbitrary definition of what grindy means.’ it’s just downplaying of what is really going on. Like if this is some totally unknown definition of grind a few people talk about. That is just nonsense.

Are you freaking serious ?
Champ Trains and Eotm Trains where/are the MOST REWARDING things !!
That why ppl did them
It was like a super farming spots , if you calculate the time spent vs the rewards …..
Who dont want to maximize their rewards for less time ? like some ppl that want everything by playing less ?

Edit: I will leave you alone to run the thread as you wish . As a 10 years healer i have build up some endurance vs all kind of ’’Dps’ers’’ and how to copy-cat their personality to use it against them , and every person is precious with their immagination they can offer in the future (just like 1 random person that created the DOTA maps that we have today) .

But your decision about ‘’ the x-pack will sold less copies’’ it might true , just because most ppl wanted to try a game without healers and try something new or various others reasons (they are called badwagon that try various MMos) .
But i have an Intuition that you will use the less box sales to justifie your personality and try to ‘’controlll the old gg’’ i the future .
But i will be here again to have discusion about that :P

“Champ Trains and Eotm Trains where/are the MOST REWARDING things !!” Yeah that is why people are grinding it.. Thats the subject here remember.

“if you calculate the time spent vs the rewards …..
Who dont want to maximize their rewards for less time ?” They do not want to grind.. again the subject.

Somehow I think you kinda mist the point people are talking about here.

The box sales is a nice comparison against GW1 expansion sales that did on average manage to generate 100% of the income of the original game sales. (all those excuses you come up with here could apply to GW1 as well)

What I said was that if GW2 would have an expansion every year and every expansion would have done the same they would have earned more money then they did now, however I also said I do not expect the HoT expansion to sell so much because damage has been done. So based on the HoT expansion sales they might not have earned more. That’s all I am saying.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Can you link as your posts from that Crytek forum ?

Also can you understand that GW1 vs GW2 have 1 huge factor that distungues them , that is called 2-week Update/Living Story ?
Can you tell me how much those update costs , by calculating the 1 billion per year revenue that a specific company does vs the content updates they release and based on that calculate the cost of the 2-week Updates ?

For the first.. why you don’t believe me?
http://www.crysis.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7830&start=60

You linked me a dead posts …
Alteast link me your posts history
Even in Crysis 3 or 4 forums

Devata.6589:

Oow and I am not so sure that is are casuals that this game still is attracting. It are more likely those who are fine with just grinding for everything. Sure that does not require a lot of skill so if that is how you define casual thats fine but I would see the term casual as a little more then ‘no’ skill. It could be those who care more for cosmetics, or those who don’t care for BiS or those who don’t care for being the best in everything or those who will not play 24/7.. But really the biggest group the game is really still attacking mostly to is those who are fine with grinding a way and the more time / less life you have to do so the better.

But YOU where saying that you where a Collector
In order to collect everything ingame , you HAVE to play multiply Hours to achiv that goal .
You said that you where fine with some friendly farming , such as to grind over and over again a Harcore content for a skin , but MAGICALY NOW you are not ok with wasting more time ingame ?

Lets have some nice convarsations for the next 2weeks :P

Try copy and paste the link to your url. Then it seems to work when clicking the link it doesn’t.

I like to collect stuff, does not always have to be everything but usually a sub-group of things. More important is it then when I see something I like I can go for that (in a direct way) and then the next thing and the next and the next.. combine that and you are collecting aren’t you?

“You said that you where fine with some friendly farming , such as to grind over and over again a Harcore content for a skin” I said I wanted to grind hardcore content over and over for a skin?

" but MAGICALY NOW you are not ok with wasting more time ingame ?" I said I was not oke with wasting more time ingame?

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

What is your problem Obtena?

It’s pretty simple; people can’t accuse Anet for making a grindy game based on whatever definition suits that purpose. That’s just self-serving justification and to expect Anet to even consider changing something in the game based on a subset of players personal pre-dispositions is nonsense; the game can’t be everything to everyone. Anet did not design the game around some random players arbitrary definition of what grindy means. People can’t seem to frame their ‘discussion’ around Anet’s clarification. I help with that.

People find the game grindy, many people do. So they tell it on the forum and even explain what they consider grind. What else can they do?

And in all honestly I also think you are downplaying the hole thing when you say “Anet did not design the game around some random players arbitrary definition of what grindy means.”. Many people find the game grindy, names as ‘grind wars’ don’t come out of nowhere. We all also know many people grind or do you want to act as if champ-trains never existed, or those grinding in EotM? We all know there is a lot of grinding going on and all that grind might not be the grind Anet tries to prevent with there ‘no-grind philosophy’ but ‘some random players arbitrary definition of what grindy means.’ it’s just downplaying of what is really going on. Like if this is some totally unknown definition of grind a few people talk about. That is just nonsense.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Bernie.8674:

How are you getting 5g in two hours? I might get that on guild mission nights, by doing dungeons, or by engaging in concerted farming, but I’ve never gotten anywhere near that by playing casually the way you claim. I must be playing wrong. I’m stagnant somewhere between 20 and 25 gold right now.

World Boss Grand Tour. Log on, find which boss is up next, and do the circuit for an hour. Sell the Ecto from salvaging the rares, sell Silk if I really want to make the money, and sell all the blues and greens.

Drop into Silverwastes if it’s before 1am PST and generally will find an active map. Do events, and sell proceeds much like with the Grand Tour. This one moves faster and can be more lucrative.

Harvest any trees I see there, and then take a moment to go to Pagga’s Waypoint and find the motherlode of Cypress to the west – sell Foxfire Clusters.

I think the lowest I hit was 3.8 g on a night where I forged rares instead of salvaging and selling Ecto.

You gave a pretty accurate view of how many people play this game… Actively grinding gold. You just proved the reason for the existence of this thread.

It’s only a little strange that you do post in in an attempt to show how there is no need to grind, or you would not consider it grind.

Except we don’t know how most people play this game, that’s an assumption and not necessarily one that I would agree with.

I think most people are so casual, they wouldn’t know how to go about grinding gold if they wanted to. I think most people log in, do a few things, maybe a few dailies, maybe hang out with their guild…they kill some stuff, they log off.

I don’t think most people are farmers.

I said many, not most. I think many because while the game had very different type of players at the beginning many (we know that as a fact) did leave. So why? Well maybe because they didn’t like to grind for everything they wanted to earn in the game? So some of those who left will be indeed the ones that login do a few things while taking with the guild and log out again (the casuals you talk about, while the reason they are still here imho is the social interaction), the WvW people and then of course those who are fine with, or even like, the grind. That is a big group because we all can see them (EotM, champ trains, SL) so yeah.. many.

“I think most people are so casual, they wouldn’t know how to go about grinding gold if they wanted to.” It’s not like you need skill or can’t be a ‘casual’ to grind.. Ask and people will tell you to run with the zerg in location x, y or z. At that moment it’s just brainlessly running along and spamming some buttons. No problem for a ‘casual’ to do so, the question is however if he will like it and stay doing it.

Obtena.7952:

Lheimroo.2947:

I’m expressing a viewpoint that seems relatively common …. Anet can use that or not; it’s up to them.

That’s the problem with this thread … no one can say this is a common issue, simply based on forum activity. Anyways, Anet already semi-closed the lid on this. They did provide a response to it within this thread. People are just campaigning; nothing relevant has been added for a while.

Lheimroo.2947:

I really don’t care any more.

No, you do care … that’s why you’re still posting in a topic that’s 23 pages long. Don’t pretend like it doesn’t matter to you and you don’t wish for the game to be something it’s not.

Lheimroo.2947:

And I’m not buying it till proven wrong, kay?

No problem with that … that’s how it’s SUPPOSED to work. I encourage people that can’t hack the game to not play it because it’s dead easy and aimed at casuals. The bar is low enough.

What is your problem Obtena?
There is grind, people feel that grind, GW2 is known for it’s grind and so people give feedback about that. It has noting to do with QQ, it has nothing to do with GW2’s ‘No grind philosophy’.

It’s what people feel and so they talk about it. Not sure why you have a problem with that.

Oow and I am not so sure that is are casuals that this game still is attracting. It are more likely those who are fine with just grinding for everything. Sure that does not require a lot of skill so if that is how you define casual thats fine but I would see the term casual as a little more then ‘no’ skill. It could be those who care more for cosmetics, or those who don’t care for BiS or those who don’t care for being the best in everything or those who will not play 24/7.. But really the biggest group the game is really still attacking mostly to is those who are fine with grinding a way and the more time / less life you have to do so the better.

There are other subgroups left like those who simply complete all the grind and like the WvW or the social interaction with the guild but I don’t feel the game is now really appealing for the big group of casuals.. no it’s probably even more appealing for the hardcore grinders.
So what is casual.