Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

Satenia.9025:

Vayne.8563:

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In this thread you also said many of your guild-members did grind all the time.

So it seems you basically help them our grinding, only you don’t qualify it as grinding but helping out those guild-members? That makes it a little understandable. But trust me, if you avoid the grindy content because you dislike it, you will not make the gold by just playing to buy all those items.

So “Play the way you want” and earn the money along the way is just simply not how it works. In fact what I liked a lot was defending in WvW at some point I had to stop buying upgrades simply because I would run out of money. So that was not chancing items or whatever, just “playing the way I want” and that did not make me gold but it cost me gold. JP’s didn’t make me a lot of gold and so only guild-missions or the moment I did run with a group to take another keep did make me the money (And they while the group moved on to the next keep I stayed to build it up).

Now even when I did stop with buying those expensive upgrades the money I made was not close to enough to buy what I would like. (not to mention that still I would prefer the hunt).

Thats just the reality for most people. If you don’t like the grindy content (Like brainlessly running with some group doing the same thing over and over again) or doing dungeons every day then you will not make the money you need along the way.

Bad conclusion is bad. First of all, I don’t think I said many of my guildies grind, but surely some of them do. However, they don’t need help to grind. So if someone needs help with a dungeon and I help them, I’m not going to run that dungeon 12 times in a row.

And no one needs help running around the Silverwastes shovel train, or any train for that matter. If someone is grinding EoTM, they won’t be grinding it with me.

However people do need help sometimes with personal story chapters for which I get no reward at all, and I still help them.

No, I really am just playing. That’s all I’m doing. As much as you’d like to believe otherwise.

And you know, I tend to hang out with other guildies I play with regularly who don’t grind either. We just do what we feel like at a given time. There are more of us out there than you think.

“First of all, I don’t think I said many of my guildies grind” Pretty sure you did, in this thread or the previous one, about how you also did see many people in your guild grind and you tried to convince them to play the game different but it was simply how they played / human nature. (Something like that).

“However, they don’t need help to grind.” You even said you would run with them in fractals when they where leveling, isn’t that grinding?

“So if someone needs help with a dungeon and I help the, I’m not going to run that dungeon 12 times in a row.” No, but if many people are doing dungeons for a grind there will be many times they will be looking for people to fill in a empty spot. If I’m correct grinding dungeons is not even done by doing is multiple times in a row because it only rewards once a day?

“And no one needs help running around the Silverwastes shovel train, or any train for that matter. If someone is grinding EoTM, they won’t be grinding it with me.”

What you have said here pretty much go’s agains what you said before.

I’m in those zones because guildies are in those zones and I’m hanging out with them.

Vayne.8563:

It’s true that often people need a fifth for a dungeon, or need help leveling in fractals and sometimes, often even, I’m the person helping. But I’m running that dungeon or that fractal to help a guildie. I do get rewards, because that game gives them to me, but my reward is spending time with friends in game.

I’ve run the Silverwastes with the guild, because I have fun spending time with my guild.

“However people do need help sometimes with personal story chapters for which I get no reward at all, and I still help them.” Sure, I never said you would do nothing that would not reward you things. I simply suggested you do many activities with guild-members and than automatically means that if they do a lot of grindy content you will do the same. That is all.

WindFall.1479:

Obtena.7952:

That would not have prevented the conversation because people don’t care what Anet has to say in the first place. They have convinced themselves there is grind. Somehow they think obtuse pedantry over definitions is a compelling argument for Anet to throw out their approach to the game and just ‘take the grind out of it’.

Arguing over pedantics. That’s what internet forums are for aren’t they? It’s like a group of guys arguing over which identical twin sister is hotter.

Only those defending the grind are arguing over pedantic. And this statement is a cheap way of trying to dismiss an ongoing discussion without any arguments or anything to add.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

In the end, what is most important about the grind discussion is that if people experience grind, that will likely be one of the biggest reasons to start disliking a game, making people feel bored by a game.

Grind might be a good way to keep people busy for a while when you would have a lack of content but eventually people will simply get burned out or bored by the game. Then you can make a beautiful world, come with a lot of great QoL improvements, have an ongoing story, be very innovative, fix huge issues like temporary content, have great animations, have a great movement system and have a lot of potential. (All things than you could apply to GW2).

When you end up with a game that many people consider boring (because of grind) people will not like is and walk away from the game. That is the main problem of the grind and is also why Anet should do something about it.

Except for those people who claim to like to grind.

True, those will stay, they will have no problem with GW2. Luckily they would also not have a problem when you make the game so there is a direct (no or less grindy way) but also have the current grind way as an option.

The big question is how big is the other group and I think they are big enough for a game-company to want to have them as part of their player-base.

In fact I think it´s one of the biggest groups. You really think a game like WoW is popular because of all the people who like to do the highest level raids (that where the grind is in WoW)? I think that is only a very small group of the total player-base.

WindFall.1479:

I feel like this entire conversation would have been avoided if the dev team said it’s a different (and arguably better, but I’m not even going near that conversation) type of grind instead of saying there’s absolutely no grind at all. Although I admit it doesn’t have the same marketing “oomph” as opposed to saying there’s no grind.

In any case, there’s a general law about using absolutes: don’t use them.

It’s a little hard to say something is better when this grind is an option in almost all mmo’s. At least for most of the items.

You can grind for gold to buy what you want in almost all of them. The big difference is that in most you can also work directly towards most of the items. And that is not the case in GW2 where grinding the gold is the only option for most of them.

In the end, what is most important about the grind discussion is that if people experience grind, that will likely be one of the biggest reasons to start disliking a game, making people feel bored by a game.

Grind might be a good way to keep people busy for a while when you would have a lack of content but eventually people will simply get burned out or bored by the game. Then you can make a beautiful world, come with a lot of great QoL improvements, have an ongoing story, be very innovative, fix huge issues like temporary content, have great animations, have a great movement system and have a lot of potential. (All things than you could apply to GW2).

When you end up with a game that many people consider boring (because of grind) people will not like is and walk away from the game. That is the main problem of the grind and is also why Anet should do something about it.

Obtena.7952:

Bernie.8674:

People keep bringing up necessity, but necessity is irrelevant.

Without demonstrating a reward as a result of repeating content is a requirement to advance or access other parts of the game, it’s not a grind. It is in fact, that ‘requirement’ element is a critical part of the definition that Anet has used to target their desire to make the game not grindy.

A few things to note here.

- Looking for a gamer perspective. If you care for a ‘optional’ item and there is grind to get it you will dislike it just as much as you would dislike it when having to grind for content. And the other way around. If you don’t care for that content you personally don’t care for that grind. So how bad that grind is for the player depends on his personal preferred game-play, not if it locked out an optional item or content (what you then define as ‘required’). So from that perspective there is no difference.

- The game was promoted and advertised with creating the game with a no-grind-philosophy. That means it did try to get people who disliked grind, not specifying what grind. It was only last month that they suddenly said what grind they did try to prevent saying it was only some types.

- Just to get the record strait, also optional cosmetic grind is define by Anet as grind. It’s simply not a type a grind they now say they try to prevent with their no-grind-philosophy while also agreeing they could also reduce that grind.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

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That you consider farming, grinding is fine. I think I already said that in the previous comment you reacted on.
What I said that was not a grind was something like quests and that is because there is one specific task (content) that rewards you one item and there is no need for repeating it.

Also the reason why farming is not as bad, or like you say, people have a higher tolerance for it does not have to do anything with it being expected (or not much, surely not for me). While there can be many reasons (depending on the person), The fact that it overall can have higher drop-rates and so are smaller ‘grinds’ is likely one reason, the fact that you don’t see a number going up so there is less of an exact time when you get it, the fact that there are many different farms in stead of this one big grind for gold (or other currency) and of course the fact that every time there is the rush of ‘will’ it drop are all possible reasons why people like this better.

Not that any of that matters. You say yourself that there is a higher tolerance for this, so people like it better. That alone should be more then enough reason to consider is a superior system and put it in and stop acting as if the current grind in this game is just fine. It isn’t, you even say in this comment this is a way people like more (have a higher tolerance of).

“Please don’t ruin what was a good route because you choose to do this “semantic” sparring over what constitutes grind. You started off fine saying “grind is grind”. " Not sure what you are referring to? I even said in that post that I could understand / agree that you would see the RNG part as grind. The only thing I said about that was by definition no grind where the non-rng parts of my suggestion, like a quest that rewards you an item. There is no repeating in that and repetition seems to be an elements everybody agrees on that needs to be in grind to name it grind? So that has nothing to do with semantic, if this was what you where referring to.

“Well, what you’ll wind up with is inflicting more grind into the game, under the illusion of alleviating it.” Why more, at best it would be another type of grind to get the game item. (when we define those farms as a grind what is fine by me). But that does not seem to add to the total amount of grind as it are two ways you work for the same thing. So the amount of grinding going on will be the same. (And then we forget about the non-rng (completely non-grind) parts of my suggestion that people would also move to what would reduce the amount of grinding going on).

“Also, please note, I didn’t talk about you wanting it handed to you.”
I have no idea in what other way I can interpret
your statement “here we have someone who is exceedingly eager to have things, but isn’t willing to do the work”. If it said, he does not like the current content, thats true as that content is for me the grind I complain about. But placing it like this really says I would want a more easy way out.

“So, are we now saying that grind is okay, after trying to build a path around it?”
For me the grind is not oke. I dislike it a lot. (It however is for those deafening it one would think?) However in my suggestion I always left the way open for people to grind. Simply because I know some people like that. Now if those defending the grind say the current gold-grind is great because you can get the reward by doing multiple things, it’s a little strange they then attack my suggestion with the ‘then you have to do that content’ and then suddenly the gold-grind option they loved so much is not valid anymore. That option is still there. I dislike it but if you (you in general) say it’s so great then don’t come and tell me saying this is not a valid argument.

For me personal I would not mind it completely being locked behind content you might not like to do. Thats my personal opinion, but my suggestion does leave room for this alternative grind as I think that is best for the game (I don’t just think about what I like best). So if it being locked behind specific content is something you dislike then there is that option. If I had the option to grind for it or work directly towards it doing specific content I did not like very much I would still do that because the grind would still be far worse. But thats personal.

Btw I would put similar items behind many different types or content to minimize the problem of having content in your way you dislike.

“I’m using this as an intellectual exercise to try to discuss things and sound them off as well as collecting what other players think about ideas being discussed. " Well then that was maybe your problem with the grind option I gave. I gave it to please the other side, to to please myself. For me there is no problem in having items locked behind content, but it’s something those liking the current gold grind system seem to have a problem with.

Vayne.8563:

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

Satenia.9025:

Vayne.8563:

I return to those zones because I enjoy going there. I think they’re pretty, or fun, or I go to do an event I used to enjoy doing, or find an event I’ve never seen.

Every time I pass through zones, I find stuff I never noticed before, or noticed once but don’t remember. That’s why I go back to old zones.

And of course, I’m in those zones when we do guild missions, I’m in those zones for jumping puzzles. I’m in those zones because guildies are in those zones and I’m hanging out with them.

Your focus is the carrot, so you assume the only reason anyone would ever go to a zone is for the carrot. kittenumption is bad.

I often wander around just TO wander around because I enjoy wandering around. Sometimes I just like to try to climb mountains, not because there’s a chest up there, or because there’s a reward up there. Just to see if I can do it.

I don’t know why you think I return to zones for world bosses, since the world boss train feels a whole lot like grind to me and as already mentioned, I tend not to do that.

The game is out for approximately 2.5 years. Which means you average a legendary every half a year. While I do not doubt that you do indeed engage in the activities you just described, you might want to consider how much of your game time is truly spent on it and how much you are actually engaged in the carrot-chasing.

As far as I’m aware, fooling around hearts and climbing mountains does not magically shower you in wealth. If it indeed did, a forum reader or two might be interested to learn more – including myself.

not hearts per say but just running around higher level zones doing events can get you quite a good amount of money usually particularly ones in ORR or SW where you can get decent silk drops/turn ins

I play a lot. But that doesn’t mean I’m chasing carrots. You’re so bent on the carrot that’s what you focus on. My focus is on my guild and helping people. That’s what I focus on.

It’s true that often people need a fifth for a dungeon, or need help leveling in fractals and sometimes, often even, I’m the person helping. But I’m running that dungeon or that fractal to help a guildie. I do get rewards, because that game gives them to me, but my reward is spending time with friends in game.

I’ve run the Silverwastes with the guild, because I have fun spending time with my guild. I’m not really sure what you’re having trouble understanding here.

As I go along, I pick up stuff, I get gold, sometimes good drops. I did have a couple of VERY lucky drops along the way which really helped. One of them was a precusor. I sell a lot of stuff on the trading post. And I gather everything. You might consider that grinding, but I find it relaxing. Just running around gathering stuff at night while I can’t sleep, doing events, often in early zones.

For example I spent a lot of time in Diessa Plateau because I enjoy the zone. I like it. It’s fun for me even after a couple of years. And between iron and softwood there’s plenty of money to make just mining and gathering. If you consider that grind, well, I don’t.

In this thread you also said many of your guild-members did grind all the time.

So it seems you basically help them our grinding, only you don’t qualify it as grinding but helping out those guild-members? That makes it a little understandable. But trust me, if you avoid the grindy content because you dislike it, you will not make the gold by just playing to buy all those items.

So “Play the way you want” and earn the money along the way is just simply not how it works. In fact what I liked a lot was defending in WvW at some point I had to stop buying upgrades simply because I would run out of money. So that was not chancing items or whatever, just “playing the way I want” and that did not make me gold but it cost me gold. JP’s didn’t make me a lot of gold and so only guild-missions or the moment I did run with a group to take another keep did make me the money (And they while the group moved on to the next keep I stayed to build it up).

Now even when I did stop with buying those expensive upgrades the money I made was not close to enough to buy what I would like. (not to mention that still I would prefer the hunt).

Thats just the reality for most people. If you don’t like the grindy content (Like brainlessly running with some group doing the same thing over and over again) or doing dungeons every day then you will not make the money you need along the way.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Devata.6589:

Well one of them had a movement-system I disliked (click with your mouse on the ground), another got shut down (oow and there where many reasons for that, but game mechanics / game-play weren’t one of them TCoS) and one I still play but is P2P so I don’t play it regular (Did when playing on private servers, then moved on to official ones but then stopped playing on regular basis), just once in a while. So I only really ‘moved on’ from one of them.
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The only valid excuse among all those is the one that was shut down. If you truly liked the game, click to move or monthly subs wouldn’t be that big a deal.

“Or did you get everything you wanted to get and move on because there was nothing more to do?” No, they keep adding stuff and that easily keeps me busy, it did even when I did play on regular basis.

And yet….here you are….

“Your underlying issue is you simply don’t like the base design of the game’s loot aspect.” Yes, what results in not having the option to directly work towards an item but only the option to grind for gold.

“I don’t think it’s ever going to adjust as much as you want it to.” I have my doubts about that as well (mainly because it’s mostly the way it is because of their cash-shop focus and changing that is not something they will easily do) as it would be a shame because like it or not, many people find the game grindy or boring because of that. Scare them away again after HoT by still using the same system and they will not come back. What really means the end of everything GW2 could have been. (Not the end of GW2.. just for the record, but it had potential to be much more / bigger)

This grind being one of the bigger flaws imho.

The only “grind” that exists is in your head. Based on your logic, since you can’t work toward an item specifically (not gold, not rng, not currency) the entire game is grind.

So…why are you here again?

“The only valid excuse among all those is the one that was shut down. If you truly liked the game, click to move or monthly subs wouldn’t be that big a deal. " Lol, so you decide for me what is a big deal? That is not how it work.

I could explain to you why they where big deals for me but that does not really matter, what matters is that they where big deals and you are not qualified to decide for other people what is or what isn’t a big enough deal to stop playing. (not to mention I did not stop playing one of the two left, I just play it on a less regular basis)

“And yet….here you are….” And I already explained why.. that was not because of a lack of things to do. Not even close.

“The only “grind” that exists is in your head. Based on your logic, since you can’t work toward an item specifically (not gold, not rng, not currency) the entire game is grind." This sentence does not make a lot of sense, or really it make no sense at all.

If you could not work towards any item (was is untrue, but true for most items) getting most items is a grind. That does not make the entire game a grind. How does not being able to work directly towards skin x make JP y a grind? Yeah like I said, that makes no sense and does not come close to any logic of mine. Your logic of what is the result of my logic is what is false here.

“So…why are you here again?”
The guild / guild-mission. Before also JP’s and WvW. Waiting for HoT hoping WvW will be interesting again, there will be some new JP’s and I very much hope the guild-halls will give reasons to work directly towards goals with the guild. Like unlocking a portal in your guild-hall by doing some specific content. Or really hoping this game will still become what it could and should have been.

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

Devata.6589:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

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““Esteemed Jumper’s Boots” which can only be found doing a jumping puzzle flawlessly under a time limit, even if they can be traded off? You better believe I’m going to be swearing and grinding puzzles, or swearing and grinding gold.”

This is also a good way to reward (I once even gave this example) and it’s not grinding at all. You can get it at the first go and that’s not because of some random luck, no this is skill-based rewards. What is imho a very good way of rewarding, maybe the best. If you do it 100 times it’s likely because you are not very good at them and so it takes you a long time to learn it but grinding is really something different, this is ‘learning’.

“here we have someone who is exceedingly eager to have things, but isn’t willing to do the work which was set out and requires another path.”
This is the weakest and most flawed excuse that keeps coming back. If you complain about grind you basically just want items to be handed to you. Pure nonsense and no matter how many time people repeat it, that does not make it any more true. As a matter of fact, what you likely as for is more challenging content. Because most of the grind in this game are mindless and boring. I ask for a hunt to do want to do ‘the work’ for it. I just don’t want some stupid never ending, mindless boring grind.

“Okay, let’s do that. Now what happens when the next person comes along and doesn’t like either path?” I did not ask for one specific path, I just ask for direct ways to get it and gave some examples. Not detailed how the path should. So there might be items that have a more fun path and a less fun part. And if you really hate one path there is still the option to grind the gold right?

“Or do we then have to demand a third . . . fourth . . . ninth . . . hundredth alternative acquisition path? ” No there is just one path per item usually. And for all the non-account bound items there is the alternative of grinding gold.

“This is why Gold is the standard for items which may be traded. This is why the grind is allowed to exist.”
Did anybody in this thread suggested we should take gold completely out of the game? Did anybody suggest we should not allow people to grind? I will answer that for you.. no, nobody did. So this is a nice statement but does really not add must to whatever side you are on.

for the jumping puzzle yes you could do it flawlessly the first time and never need to do it again but most people aren’t able to do JP in one try I know i can’t so then it would become a grind if you could ONLY get it that way as you suggest even if they are only account bound items you don’t want to introduce that do you?

“if you could ONLY get it that way as you suggest”
Where did I suggest that? Please quote!

Pretty sure I did not say this. However I would put a limit on getting it else people who would be very good at it could get them a lot and the item would have not much value left. So maybe you could keep it not account-bound but you could only get it once on your account.

I think it would be nice if some items would be account-bound but in my suggestions I always said most items could or should not be simply so the grinders can still grind.

Many people did have to do Liadri many times just to master it but I did never hear anybody say that was a grind. We are now talking about a challenge or skill-based rewards. Completely unrelated to grind. Also you do not have to do it many times, you simply have to increase your skills what you can also do by doing easy JP’s first and getting to do harder and harder ones (for example).

Doing the same JP many times does not help you a bid further to getting the reward, nor is the reward being hold back by an x number of times. It’s locked behind a skill-level. What you have to do is getting better, nothing else.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Devata.6589:

“Then you’d come back with the exact same complaint”, I did not complain about grind in any of the MMO’s that used this system. So no.

And are you still playing them? Or did you get everything you wanted to get and move on because there was nothing more to do? The fact that you have indeed moved on to yet another game is quite telling.

“Be it grinding for gold or grinding for loot.” With gold it’s like a never ending grind for gold while farming for items (while only partly true, like I said before, not everything has to be RNG based when rewarding items) you have many different farms but if you like to grind gold that is also an option.

You have a kitten ton of options for farming as it stands, so lack of options obviously isn’t your issue. The fact that practically everything rewards gold in this game (including failing events) should contribute to gold not being grindy. Honestly, I don’t think “grind” is your underlying issues here. Your underlying issue is you simply don’t like the base design of the game’s loot aspect. Which, some of that has adjusted, to an extent, with collections; however, I don’t think it’s ever going to adjust as much as you want it to.

Well one of them had a movement-system I disliked (click with your mouse on the ground), another got shut down (oow and there where many reasons for that, but game mechanics / game-play weren’t one of them TCoS) and one I still play but is P2P so I don’t play it regular (Did when playing on private servers, then moved on to official ones but then stopped playing on regular basis), just once in a while. So I only really ‘moved on’ from one of them.

“Or did you get everything you wanted to get and move on because there was nothing more to do?” No, they keep adding stuff and that easily keeps me busy, it did even when I did play on regular basis.

“Your underlying issue is you simply don’t like the base design of the game’s loot aspect.” Yes, what results in not having the option to directly work towards an item but only the option to grind for gold.

“I don’t think it’s ever going to adjust as much as you want it to.” I have my doubts about that as well (mainly because it’s mostly the way it is because of their cash-shop focus and changing that is not something they will easily do) as it would be a shame because like it or not, many people find the game grindy or boring because of that. Scare them away again after HoT by still using the same system and they will not come back. What really means the end of everything GW2 could have been. (Not the end of GW2.. just for the record, but it had potential to be much more / bigger)

This grind being one of the bigger flaws imho.

mtpelion.4562:

Devata.6589:

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You can do whatever you want and get the same rewards that I do when I do whatever I want. Doing stuff you want to do is NOT a grind, therefore your premise is incorrect. This game is NOT grindy because you can do what you want and get the rewards. If you CHOOSE to do content you DON’T want to do because you believe it will be faster at reaching the rewards then you are imposing an unnecessary grind on the game YOURSELF. YOU are the GRIND, not the game.

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I don’t want to kill the Super Elite Fire Ooze King 400 times to get the Ooze Crown of Super Eliteness. I want to do whatever I want and still be able to get the Ooze Crown of Super Eliteness. GW2 allows me to do that, thus the specific content for specific item system is INFERIOR to the GW2 system.

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Play the content you like and you won’t be grinding gold, you’ll be getting rewarded for playing how you like to play.

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Your incorrect opinion is not a “debunk”. In reality you can make gold doing whatever you want, and then use that gold to buy whatever you want. YOU just want YOUR style of play to be faster than other styles of play at generating gold so that YOU can skip the playing and satisfy your desire to be instantly satisfied. That’s bad game design.

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No options have been taken away. You have the option to play however you want to play. This game offers MORE options than the other MMOs, which is why it is superior. Again, you just want YOUR CHOICE to be superior to the other playstyles and are masking that request with these ridiculously fallacious arguments about how grindy this game is and how it lacks options when it quite provably is less grindy and have MORE options than it’s competitors.

If you really feel that the current reward system is so bad and that only systems that reward actual grinding (which is what you’ve been asking for) are valid, then I’m sorry but this game will never be “for you”. There are plenty of older MMOs that reward killing the Super Elite Fire Ooze King 400 times already. I’m sure you’d be happier there. But again, I don’t think you are actually being truthful in your claims as I believe it is much more likely that you simply want your play style to be buffed and are using this ludicrous thread to mask your intentions.

“No options have been taken away. You have the option to play however you want to play. This game offers MORE options than the other MMOs”

Your complete story is build around this idea. Basically: GW2 gives you every option because you buy stuff with gold and can get gold in many ways.

But there are 3 big flaws in your idea that undermine the rest of what you say.

1. Working directly towards an items is also an option.. an option you do not have in GW2 but do have in many other games. The hunt. Like the example I gave before, Hunting the dragon to then get kill it and have his head on your wall. That is what some people prefer over killing rabbits to sell the skin and then buy the head. Basically this first option does not exist.

2. In those other games many items (just as in GW2) are not account-bound. That means the gold option that according to you is so superior in GW2 in fact exist in all those games. That means all those positives you claim to be unique for GW2 in fact exist also in those games, making GW2 not superior at that part.

3. Many people will not earn the gold they need for the rewards they like simply by playing the other content they like (forgetting about the content of directly hunting for items).

About going to another game. Many people doing that is a problem for the game, and yes going for items in GW2 I don’t do anymore. Once in a while I will play another MMO for that and have a lot of fun doing that there. Still, when HoT gets released you would want to hold all those players that like this type of content, this time around.

The reason I am still here is because of the other things I like, like JP’s, some WvW, guild-missions and in HoT hopefully some more WvW, guild-halls (when implemented interesting, so not by just another currency grind) and more guild-related stuff. All things that btw do not even remotely reward me for all the items I would like to have. And I already shorten the list when comparing to what I would collect in those other mmo’s.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

mtpelion.4562:

Gold being the primary reward system is what makes this game so NON-grindy. Making items the main reward would simply INCREASE the amount of grind since you’d be shoehorned into doing specific content repeatedly in order to get specific items.

Gold as a reward allows you to focus on playing the content you like and eventually being able to acquire almost anything you want.

It is a vastly superior system to the old item reward schemes.

While I personally can agree that I feel having a game wide currency that’s readily obtainable to be non-grindy, not everyone will see it that way since “grind” is subjective.

Some people are going to feel pressured to only do the content that rewards the greatest amount of gold in the shortest period of time, which is going to pigeon-hole them into very specific content, and yes, I can see that becoming a “grind” for some people. This way they can get whatever shiny they are after, faster. What these people fail to comprehend is if that shiny where to drop instead of gold, they’d end up grinding just as much if not potentially more to achieve it. Where as, with gold, they do have the choice to go do other things, and still make progress toward their end goal. They just don’t exercise that freedom of choice and opt to whine instead.

“Some people are going to feel pressured to only do the content that rewards” If that is a reality of life it does effect the game and so should be something Anet needs into account. Whether you blame the players for it or the game.

“They just don’t exercise that freedom of choice” They now have less choice. The other way they could grind the gold or work towards it.

“and opt to whine instead.” I guess the people who don’t do the grind whine, those who do, are grinding as we speak or already stopped playing the game. Well maybe some eventually came to their senses and rightfully so complained about it.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

About it still being a grind but a different one. As for the RNG part that is of course personal but at the very least it’s cut in smaller chunks and then for the not RNG part it’s something you do ones and be rewarded, I don’t think that fits any definition of grind. And people can then work directly towards the items.

It fits my definition of grind, which is “I am repeating this lousy task hoping for that item to drop so I can get on with my life”.

Do I need it? Probably not. Could I get by without it? Probably so. Why am I wasting my time? Because I want it, and this is the way to get it.

Miniature Ice Elemental drops 4% from that enemy? Grind me up some elemental killboxes and get to work. “Esteemed Jumper’s Boots” which can only be found doing a jumping puzzle flawlessly under a time limit, even if they can be traded off? You better believe I’m going to be swearing and grinding puzzles, or swearing and grinding gold.

And honestly, I might not want to get these things. Especially if they’re only cosmetics. I’ll just wave goodbye like the Mini Polar Bear in GW1. But other people will want them, will see it as a grind, and will see it as unreasonably included.

I mean, case in point, just look at the original poster . . . here we have someone who is exceedingly eager to have things, but isn’t willing to do the work which was set out and requires another path. Okay, let’s do that. Now what happens when the next person comes along and doesn’t like either path? “So sorry, too bad”? “Get your big boy pants on and get to work”?

Or do we then have to demand a third . . . fourth . . . ninth . . . hundredth alternative acquisition path?

This is why Gold is the standard for items which may be traded. This is why the grind is allowed to exist. Because, like it or not, any player can . . . in theory . . . apply themselves to getting Gold enough to buy things which can be traded.

““Esteemed Jumper’s Boots” which can only be found doing a jumping puzzle flawlessly under a time limit, even if they can be traded off? You better believe I’m going to be swearing and grinding puzzles, or swearing and grinding gold.”

This is also a good way to reward (I once even gave this example) and it’s not grinding at all. You can get it at the first go and that’s not because of some random luck, no this is skill-based rewards. What is imho a very good way of rewarding, maybe the best. If you do it 100 times it’s likely because you are not very good at them and so it takes you a long time to learn it but grinding is really something different, this is ‘learning’.

“here we have someone who is exceedingly eager to have things, but isn’t willing to do the work which was set out and requires another path.”
This is the weakest and most flawed excuse that keeps coming back. If you complain about grind you basically just want items to be handed to you. Pure nonsense and no matter how many time people repeat it, that does not make it any more true. As a matter of fact, what you likely as for is more challenging content. Because most of the grind in this game are mindless and boring. I ask for a hunt to do want to do ‘the work’ for it. I just don’t want some stupid never ending, mindless boring grind.

“Okay, let’s do that. Now what happens when the next person comes along and doesn’t like either path?” I did not ask for one specific path, I just ask for direct ways to get it and gave some examples. Not detailed how the path should. So there might be items that have a more fun path and a less fun part. And if you really hate one path there is still the option to grind the gold right?

“Or do we then have to demand a third . . . fourth . . . ninth . . . hundredth alternative acquisition path? ” No there is just one path per item usually. And for all the non-account bound items there is the alternative of grinding gold.

“This is why Gold is the standard for items which may be traded. This is why the grind is allowed to exist.”
Did anybody in this thread suggested we should take gold completely out of the game? Did anybody suggest we should not allow people to grind? I will answer that for you.. no, nobody did. So this is a nice statement but does really not add must to whatever side you are on.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Devata.6589:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Devata.6589:

“Because there’s no need to grind if you dont want said item” So if you want to get the item / to get the item, it is required. Exactly what I said.

This statement right here highlights that the choice is in fact yours. You are making the choice to chase something, and as such you must work for it. That work comes in the form of grinding, which you don’t like. What do you want them to do? Just hand it to you if you decide you want something? A certain amount of work has to be involved to keep the game engaging.

“What do you want them to do?” If I would answer this then people would complain again I keep repeating myself because I think repeating myself means I am right. (Or something like that) But of course I repeat myself because of these sorts of questions.

Anyway, yes it’s choice, just as it’s choice to play this game. I also choose not to do this grind. But I would like to work towards the items. Just not by grinding gold for 90% of them but by actively working towards them, having fun doing that. I also did this in other MMO’s. Grind is not the only way. The other ways to do that I gave in multiple other comments. Liadri would be one example.

The problem is Deveta, in either instance you end up grinding for the item you’re hunting. They cannot just give it to you after one or two passes of the content (be it a mob kill, a quest chain, a boss, etc). You’re going to have to do it again, and again, and again, and again, which equates to grind. Then you’d come back with the exact same complaint you have now – you can’t achieve whatever it is you’re after without grind. Grind is a necessary evil in the longevity of these types of games. Be it grinding for gold or grinding for loot.

For quests that would not have to be true, for dungeons (and other content that takes a longer time to create) you will see some RNG, while you could as well reward something simply for completing it. However because it drops in one place in stead of in many places you can also make the drop-rate higher what makes the grind a little less and there is more variation.

So in total you get a system where there is some RNG but also where you can earn many items without RNG (Like the quests / quest-chains). That makes the complete grind less.

“Then you’d come back with the exact same complaint”, I did not complain about grind in any of the MMO’s that used this system. So no.

“Be it grinding for gold or grinding for loot.” With gold it’s like a never ending grind for gold while farming for items (while only partly true, like I said before, not everything has to be RNG based when rewarding items) you have many different farms but if you like to grind gold that is also an option.

mtpelion.4562:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

His point is simple … add more ways for people to grind so they can choose the method that suits them. The problem is that it’s not the method that’s the issue because we have MANY methods we can choose to earn rewards. The REAL issue is that there is a gold standard. The unfortunate part of these ‘grind’ threads don’t recognize that this will always be the primary reward in the game.

Gold (or some substitute) will always be the prime currency, but it does not have to be the prime reward. If I was to build an MMO from the ground up I would also add in gold, but I would design it so that the items are the primary reward and gold should be something you earn along the way that lets pay some vendor stuff you might need. But I would not want gold be the primary reward in a MMORPG, or it even being such an important element.

That would turn the game to much into a job. Gold / currency is a great way to trade things but an MMORPG should be much more about the hunt and the challenge of getting the stuff that way.. I guess like if you were to kill an evil dragon and have the dragon head on your wall. That is the hunt and the reward I think it should be about in an MMO. Not getting the same head by buying it with gold you earned by killing rabbits and selling the skin.

Gold being the primary reward system is what makes this game so NON-grindy. Making items the main reward would simply INCREASE the amount of grind since you’d be shoehorned into doing specific content repeatedly in order to get specific items.

Gold as a reward allows you to focus on playing the content you like and eventually being able to acquire almost anything you want.

It is a vastly superior system to the old item reward schemes.

“Gold being the primary reward system is what makes this game so NON-grindy. " But the game is extremely grindy because of the gold-grind.

“Making items the main reward would simply INCREASE the amount of grind since you’d be shoehorned into doing specific content repeatedly in order to get specific items.” Specific content per item, but then again all items have different content so you are in reality send all over the world to do many different types of content while the grind-option usually means your choice is getting limited.

“Gold as a reward allows you to focus on playing the content you like” I like hunting down items.. But the only way to do that is by grinding gold.

" and eventually being able to acquire almost anything you want." Yeah, just not how it works in reality. That has been debunked multiple times in this thread. If you like cosmetics just doing some other stuff will not make you the gold you need to buy all the cosmetics you like.. for most people at least. Except if grindy-like content happens to be what you like. Plus that you still miss out of the hunt for the item.

Not to mention that all readable items still allow you to grind for gold and buy them. So the biggest difference is that in one system the only option is to grind gold and in the other system you can directly work towards getting your item or grind for gold.

“It is a vastly superior system to the old item reward schemes." So taking away an option is makes it superior. Well if grinding gold is what you like and you hate it when other people don’t grind but work directly work towards item.. then I guess it is vastly superior for you. I can’t see any other boundaries in what that system is superior (in a game at least).

Obtena.7952:

His point is simple … add more ways for people to grind so they can choose the method that suits them. The problem is that it’s not the method that’s the issue because we have MANY methods we can choose to earn rewards. The REAL issue is that there is a gold standard. The unfortunate part of these ‘grind’ threads don’t recognize that this will always be the primary reward in the game.

Gold (or some substitute) will always be the prime currency, but it does not have to be the prime reward. If I was to build an MMO from the ground up I would also add in gold, but I would design it so that the items are the primary reward and gold should be something you earn along the way that lets pay some vendor stuff you might need. But I would not want gold be the primary reward in a MMORPG, or it even being such an important element.

That would turn the game to much into a job. Gold / currency is a great way to trade things but an MMORPG should be much more about the hunt and the challenge of getting the stuff that way.. I guess like if you were to kill an evil dragon and have the dragon head on your wall. That is the hunt and the reward I think it should be about in an MMO. Not getting the same head by buying it with gold you earned by killing rabbits and selling the skin.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

Anyway, yes it’s choice, just as it’s choice to play this game. I also choose not to do this grind. But I would like to work towards the items. Just not by grinding gold for 90% of them but by actively working towards them, having fun doing that. I also did this in other MMO’s. Grind is not the only way. The other ways to do that I gave in multiple other comments. Liadri would be one example.

You’re simply replacing one grind with a variety of others, I’m going to point out again. Some of which people may not want to do.

Sure, we can keep the old Gold grind in there . . . but then what’s the point of the other ones if players can still just say “screw it” and grind gold rather than take the other path?

For me personally the gold-grind could go. But while some people in this thread basically don’t want to hear anything that could make it more fun for other players (and if people make suggestions to help other type of players they strongly go against it). I do take people with other tastes into consideration.

That is why I say many items would not have to be account-bound (while I personally have no problem if they are, imho it would add more value to the item) so that people who like this grind can still do so. Also the argument of “People can then simply play what they want and get the reward that way” would also still be valid.

So that is why I would still allow that. Not so much for me personally but so the grinders can still grind and Anet can still say people can play the way they want. However now all those people who do not want to grind can also play the game the way they want by directly working towards those items. That is why I make my suggestion. Especially as I think for a game like GW2 (that is so build around cosmetics) this type of players is a big part of the player-base, many of them have maybe left already but will come back with HoT.

About it still being a grind but a different one. As for the RNG part that is of course personal but at the very least it’s cut in smaller chunks and then for the not RNG part it’s something you do ones and be rewarded, I don’t think that fits any definition of grind. And people can then work directly towards the items.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Devata.6589:

“Because there’s no need to grind if you dont want said item” So if you want to get the item / to get the item, it is required. Exactly what I said.

This statement right here highlights that the choice is in fact yours. You are making the choice to chase something, and as such you must work for it. That work comes in the form of grinding, which you don’t like. What do you want them to do? Just hand it to you if you decide you want something? A certain amount of work has to be involved to keep the game engaging.

“What do you want them to do?” If I would answer this then people would complain again I keep repeating myself because I think repeating myself means I am right. (Or something like that) But of course I repeat myself because of these sorts of questions.

Anyway, yes it’s choice, just as it’s choice to play this game. I also choose not to do this grind. But I would like to work towards the items. Just not by grinding gold for 90% of them but by actively working towards them, having fun doing that. I also did this in other MMO’s. Grind is not the only way. The other ways to do that I gave in multiple other comments. Liadri would be one example.

Vayne.8563:

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

I did not say it was not optional (All grind is optional), I said it was required TO get those items. That is something else. Pretty big difference in fact.

Just for clarification purposes I feel this statement "(All grind is optional), I said it was required TO get those items. " is wrong. you dont need to grind to get any item in game. I can log in today play whatever I choose and it will get me that little closer to whatever reward I am interested in be it an ascended piece of gear, a named exotic or even a legendary weapon. That means that even if you want to get an item grinding is still something optional. You can engage in grinding and get the item faster or you can choose not to grind for it and still get it abit in a longer time period.

I have five legendaries and I didn’t grind for any of them.

I did play the game, a lot for 1,5 year, after that less. I have one precursor (that somebody gave to me), don’t have world completion, don’t have most of the materials and have about 150 gold. (All gold combined I would have had much more but considering everything cost gold there is not much saving when you like cosmetics) So that is still a long way to go. And that is when I do as you say “play what you want, don’t grind.”.

Now I don’t mind that I do not have it yet, I never actually started to work for the legendary, but the reason for that is because also that is for the most part just a big grind. If it seemed like a fun interesting challenge (also if it took long) I would have, but this boring grind, no thanks. Who knows, maybe once.

I also wanted infinity light. That one I did at one point actively try to get. Read about a place where I could farm the charged lodestones. The problem was that the mobs I had to kill where not there all the time (depended on some state). I did go there multiple times, not sure how many hours I actively killed them but I think about 5, I did not get a single charged lodestone and maybe 5 cores. Knowing I needed 250 charged lodestone I also stopped with that (this is not a realistic farm). I even had multiple guild-members sending me the ones they had and got. At this moment if I was to combine all cores and add that to the charged lodestones I already have I would have 48 charged lodestones. Still far away from 250. Turned out grinding gold was the best way to get them, but that I will not do.

So while you might somehow manage to get those things without grinding, that is not true or realistic for most people I can tell you.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

I did not say it was not optional (All grind is optional), I said it was required TO get those items. That is something else. Pretty big difference in fact.

Just for clarification purposes I feel this statement "(All grind is optional), I said it was required TO get those items. " is wrong. you dont need to grind to get any item in game. I can log in today play whatever I choose and it will get me that little closer to whatever reward I am interested in be it an ascended piece of gear, a named exotic or even a legendary weapon. That means that even if you want to get an item grinding is still something optional. You can engage in grinding and get the item faster or you can choose not to grind for it and still get it abit in a longer time period.

Sure, that is theoretically correct but as I already said before reality is different. One looking at one item yes, when you have multiple you like and of all the items they add every month there would for example be one you would add to your list it you would get hopelessly behind.

Also we where taking in the context of getting that item.. So thats the goal. Then you can only do that by getting gold. What you say here is.. forget about the items, and remember is when you got the money by doing other things. Sure but then the goal is not getting the item anymore.

coso.9173:

I disagree with the “all grind is the same” point of view.
Even if by definition everything we do in a game is ultimately optional, there’s a big difference between content gated behind grind, than just grind for cosmetic stuff or things that don’t unlock content.

That completely depends on the player/ play-style. If the content locked behind grind is not content you are interested in but you are interested in the cosmetic. How is that then different for that person.

It isn’t. He then has to grind to get what he wants. Just as the guy who would want to do the content but needs to grind for it to be able to do it.

Sure theoretically you can say “well he might not be interested in the content but he can do it” and sure that is true but that’s is irrelevant for him because he does not care for that content.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

“When the majority of the ppl have already bought GW2 and they dont need to spent real money to BUY AGAIN GW2 , then what kind income they will have each quarter?”

That is why I talked about yearly expansions. So the first quarter (after initial sales) they will have made less, then the Q2 also less than with the cash-shop, 3Q also less but then the 4th will be the expansion what will make up for that lost.

Are you familiar with project management triangle? you have 3 items on said triangle. Cost, Scope and Schedule. Project management rules state you can only focus on two of those at a time. So you can control how long a project takes but you have to sacrifice cost or scope. A Developer like arenanet just dont get control on cost. I am sure they cant wake up tomorrow and ask NCSoft to triple their personnel it just will not be approved which means they’d have no choice but to sacrifice scope. Is it really something we want? We dont know when they started working on hearts of torns, we dont know what scope it has but based on what is being said I dont feel it something that can afford to have its scope 1/2 or 1/3 so that they can push it out each year rather then each 2 – 3 years.

Truth be told I think LS and Expansion need to both exist to keep this scope. they may have only made 19 per quarter but thats probably more then enough to sustain a team of 350 people and keep ncsoft happy until the big expansion payouts. People like to quote blizzard numbers on how 350 people is not that big of a team but when we get to know team after team of different mmos 350 seems the largest team after blizzard. This week we got to know cryptic let go 18 employees unfortunately whats more its been reported that 18 was 14% of the company which means they had 128 people working on both neverwinter, startrek online and champions online.

The scope compared too what? If they would push out an expansion a year I would personally be fine with those expansions being a little smaller then your average expansion you see in a game like WoW that pushes out an expansion every 2 years. Or they could do one smaller expansion and then one bigger and then small again and so on.

So yes I would personally be fine with a smaller scope if they pushed it out every year.

About when they started with HoT, based on what developers said (indirectly) it seems like they had some things going on for a longer time but the biggest part of the development for HoT started after the Chinese release was up and running.

For example, in one interview (I think with Angry Joe) Colin was asked why it took 3 years, on what Colin said that the Chinese release had a lot of their attention. In another interview (or maybe the same) they also said something like they first went for the LS but now decided to go for this (mixed) approach. Of course we also know they recently hired a raid guy. Bare in mind, I say this all out of memory, things might been said slightly different.

It’s hard to say when HoT will be released but lets say they they release it on the 3 year anniversary and we assume that the biggest part of the development indeed started after the Chinese release, that means the bulk of the work will have taken them 1 to 1.5 year. And that is then while also having been pushing out LS. Besides, because people have been waiting for 3 years they likely expect a very big scope now (so that is another possible trap).

Aidan Savage.2078:

Devata.6589:

To get those items the grind is not realistically optional

the items are optional.

Now if we could make the grind to get them optional we would have made some progress.

Seriously? It cant be that hard to understand. If the item is optional, the grind is optional. Why? Because there’s no need to grind if you dont want said item. You need to redefine your idea of what a “grind” really is. Or stop playing mmos.

Frankly I’m done with this troll thread. OP’s just an attention seeking Kitten.

I did not say it was not optional (All grind is optional), I said it was required TO get those items. That is something else. Pretty big difference in fact.

In fact, while you seem to find it hard to understand this difference you even touch it in your explanation.

“Because there’s no need to grind if you dont want said item” So if you want to get the item / to get the item, it is required. Exactly what I said.

You can act like if your mad and can’t believe what I am saying, the only problem is, you complain is not based on what I said but based on what you made of it. So really, you are mad on your own idea. Trying to dismiss something this way even as a name, is called a staw man http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man .

You can call me names whatever you like, that does not change the facts.

And why should I stop playing MMO’s when I see that grind as a problem? There are plenty mmo’s where this is no problem. So it’s really not a problem on my side but a problem in GW2. (and likely also some other MMO’s, but not all).

Also the fact that the grind topics keep popping up shows I am not the only person noticing the grind.

eithinan.9841:

JustTrogdor.7892:

Haha. You guys are getting trolled so hard. Just look at the OP’s post history. I’ll break it down for you:

• Gem store = Evil
• Expansions every year or less.
• I know game monetization better than all the professionals that work for Anet.
• Expansions, expansions, expansions..
• Gem store = evil and if I want what is in the gem store and wish to buy it for gold it it is grind.
• If I want it and have to do anything I don’t like to do to get it, it is grind.

That’s basically it. You can keep arguing with him all you want. The results will never change.

I’ll admit I just scanned over this thread but I’m familiar with the OP’s MO. I think mostly he just likes the attention.

And no, Devata I won’t reply to what you have to say regarding my post so don’t bother. I’m not a fan of listening to broken records.

Yeah I figured this out after reading through his first couple posts. I skipped the rest of them, the majority of the posts here. Considering how long this thread has become and how repetitive, skipping anything posted by him really lessens the grind of reading through it.

The thing that really matters is that he thinks having things locked behind specific content is a good thing and will post pages about it. Since I think that is how real grind happens I haven’t taken him seriously since.

Devata.6589:

Writing this is more fun then grinding.

I like how he calls himself out on trolling…

tigirius.9014:

People keep forgetting that not everyone has the same access to loot in this game.

And this still hasn’t been explained.

“The thing that really matters is that he thinks having things locked behind specific content” I usually talk about ‘placed behind’ content but then the gold grind option is still there. If would have read the comments you would have known that.

“Since I think that is how real grind happens I haven’t taken him seriously since.”
Not sure how that would make anything more of a grind. Now if you want for example the lightning Kite you can only grind gold for it, in my option you can still grind gold for it and (for example) complete a specific dungeon. So adding that option creates more of a grind..? And you don’t take me serious for suggesting that?

Besides I also said that what somebody considers grind really depends on your preferred game-play, again if you did read the comments you would have known that.
“

Writing this is more fun then grinding.

I like how he calls himself out on trolling…”

You think that was a troll? Lol, that was completely serious. The person I reacted on suggested we could have grinded in the time we were on the forums. But I rather post a comment here then that I am grinding for gold. No troll, 100% serious.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

That then results in what you sum up. Fact is, ever since launch GW2 has been making less and less money. There LS approach did not prevent that. Also a lot of people complain about grind in this game. So instead of only telling what I say is not true I would like to hear people as you then tell what is the problem. Why do so many people refer to GW2 as Grind Wars 2? Why did that LS not be able to keep players busy? Why keeps income dropping while Anet has been using those mechanics to try and hold them?

The money they got from Boxxes/Coppies Sold (ppl that bought GW2) and gem store items , are shown in each quarter in the Ncsoft COMBINED
(Boxxes sold and gem store sold in China , dont show in the quarter year inc , but in the NCsof ’’Revenue’’)

When the majority of the ppl have already bought GW2 and they dont need to spent real money to BUY AGAIN GW2 , then what kind income they will have each quarter ?
a) More inc ?
b) Same inc ?
c) Less inc ? (ppl have bought GW2 > they dont needd to spent 60 dollars again , but IF THEY WISH they can get the Gem Store items with REA MONEY)

Income =/= amount of ppl playing (like wildstar or in WoW when they finalize the gold>buy Sub )
Some uses their REAL MONEY to buy something from the gem store , while the unknown majority benefit from the conert gold> gems (that the company dont get any cash).
They are not forced to pay 15 dollars per months .. so they can do as they please

Devata.6589:

For as long I see this as the main problem I will keep mentioning it while I already am less active in the forum. .

This is good , because it means , i will be aslo less active to the thread and forums and watch some animes :P

“When the majority of the ppl have already bought GW2 and they dont need to spent real money to BUY AGAIN GW2 , then what kind income they will have each quarter?”

That is why I talked about yearly expansions. So the first quarter (after initial sales) they will have made less, then the Q2 also less than with the cash-shop, 3Q also less but then the 4th will be the expansion what will make up for that lost.

Q1 of the second year will be less than Q4 with the cash-shop but also with the expansion approach. Q2 will be lest, Q3 will be less but then Q4 will be again the expansion not only making up for it but by now in total you even have more. That is at least what the number suggest.

Hope this makes it a little more clear for you.

“i will be aslo less active to the thread and forums and watch some animes” While grinding?

metaldude.4132:

Do you all realize that the time needed to write these big amounts of tekst could also have been used to grind and reaching your goals ? XD :P

Writing this is more fun then grinding.

Aidan Savage.2078:

papaiggy.1345:

serenke.4806:

papaiggy.1345:

Bahlol.6125:

Anet did NOT say “the game has NO grind at all” they know there is ( they made the game. lol) however, they said you don’t have to do it.

I did not read the whole thing but here are my thoughts on this topic in general:
the reason they took WvW map completion from the 100% world completion is because many servers are stuck vs way stronger servers, and never get a chance to do the WvW map completion, so that’s not something they are changing about the ‘Grind’ in the game rather its a fix for a problem.

take away the grind and make the game grind free!, everyone get dungeon master because they played the dungeon once and just for playing the game for 100 hours lets give you a legendary(that a grind for hours though) and lets not reward players who played the game days in and days out and invested many hours of game play and make em just like everyone who played the game for 3 days and quit, no more special skins for fractal grinders who played them for 100’s of hours to get that lame underwater skin that no one ever see and make it once you play an underwater fractal you automatically get the skin, and once you finish all fractals you get the fractal tonic that only a hand full of players have ATM, and once you kill a player in WvW you get the “ultimate dominator” title and kill a player in PvP and get dragon rank and finisher, I think you know where im going with this.
if you don’t want a ‘grind’ in a game maybe you should be playing a single player game not an MMORPG

You lost me at I did not read the OP but I am going to give me unfounded opinion on the topic title.

They’re making a few good points there, even without having read the OP fully.

I don’t give the respect of reading someone’s points good or otherwise who can’t give the same basic respect of reading the original post, that’s not how discussion and civil discourse works. It’s childish.

Childish is assuming one’s post doesnt have any valid points regardless of whether or not they read the OP. What makes you think they didnt read other threads before just like this? What makes you think none of us have hashed this out before weeks and months ago in another thread? I didnt bother reading the OP either. Frankly it was a poorly organized rant. If it had a bit more structure, I might have read the whole thing.

Needless to say, there’s nothing to change, and the last 8 pages have reiterated that. An optional grind that you find tedious is probably a grind that you should stop doing and step away from. Ascended gear? Optional (outside of level 50 fractals). Legendary? Optional. Achievement points? Optional (unless you’re an ap “hunter” trying to stay on the leaderboard). Collection achievements? Optional. Crafts to 400/500? Optional. Farming materials for the previous? Optional. Buying materials for the previous? Optional. Farming gold for all of the above activities? Optional.

Frankly, the only thing not optional in this game is gaining experience. Beyond that, everything’s optional, even logging in.

To get those items the grind is not realistically optional, the items are optional. Now if we could make the grind to get them optional we would have made some progress.

And yes, my OP was not very structured, that’s because I first typed a comment for original thread, but then it turned out to be closed so I had to create a new topic where obviously the beginning needed to be different. That is why it was not very structured.

Not much of a rand going on btw.

Kasima.8143:

The only way to “fix” grinding is to stop making things that people want or to give people everything from the get go so they can do anything they want at any time. /thread

More content isn’t going to prevent people who want something from grinding to get it.
Content is also not infinite and if you’re someone who is home-bound and has nothing better to do than play a MMO over 8 hours a day, then any MMO (or any game for that matter) will quickly become boring, repetitive and unchallenging. Then as Arkinos.7245 pointed out on page 2, all that’s left to do is PvP, grinding or my personal favourite : playing a different game. In the gaming industry, that’s called replay value. Replay value is never infinite.

There is no way around it. Saying otherwise is just like arguing against laws of physics.

I personally find levels useless, because there is little to do as a lowbie that interests me (I hate map completion) and levelling up isn’t much of a challenge. So to me, levelling up is the worst grind in the game after map completion. I don’t do it because I like it, but because I need it to be 80 to do the things I want to do. According to the no-grind evangelists here, would this mean that levelling up should be abolished because it restricts access to content? But then there wouldn’t be much of a game if we were all level 80 from the get go would there? That’s how silly the no-grind position is.

One thing this game could really use is a metric butt-ton of side-quests like there were in Skyrim. This would keep people busy for a looooooooooong time. Have you ever finished all the quests in a game of Skyrim? In my last game, I downloaded a mod to disable fast travel. I think I’ve only managed to do half the quests in over 400 hours of gameplay but I didn’t get bored like I did in my first game when I used fast travel. I think that GW2 would have benefited from dumping waypoints in favor of mounts and portals to major cities and other key areas. Having to travel by foot (or by horse or whatever) adds to immersion, to adventure (because you get side-tracked) and lengthens the gameplay without being grindy.
Anyway… having a metric butt-ton of side-quests would add a lot of replay value.

There is a difference from people grinding and the game having to be a grind when you like to work towards item. What you say was one (part) of my suggestion. Quest, then put the rewards behind them and you will have reduced the grind. That does not mean some people will stay grinding but at least there is a direct way to work towards your stuff and keep you busy this way.

But the last part of your post seems to go a little against the first part.

JustTrogdor.7892:

Haha. You guys are getting trolled so hard. Just look at the OP’s post history. I’ll break it down for you:

• Gem store = Evil
• Expansions every year or less.
• I know game monetization better than all the professionals that work for Anet.
• Expansions, expansions, expansions..
• Gem store = evil and if I want what is in the gem store and wish to buy it for gold it it is grind.
• If I want it and have to do anything I don’t like to do to get it, it is grind.

That’s basically it. You can keep arguing with him all you want. The results will never change.

I’ll admit I just scanned over this thread but I’m familiar with the OP’s MO. I think mostly he just likes the attention.

And no, Devata I won’t reply to what you have to say regarding my post so don’t bother. I’m not a fan of listening to broken records.

Those things you say here are indeed the main issues I have with the game. I never denied that. Well except for “If I want it and have to do anything I don’t like to do to get it, it is grind” that is pure nonsense.

While it obviously works from back to frond.

1. You are promised a B2P game with all based on cosmetics, so as someone interested in cosmetics you get to this game.

2. You notice that in this game, collecting items is one big grind and the cash-shop focus (it’s the focus, I also repeat that in all those post) seems to be the main reason. It’s for example factual true that all items in the cash-shop (or indirectly linked to the cash-shop) are only obtainable by grinding gold or buying them.

3. You complain about this cash-shop focus.

4. People say Anet has to make money.

5. You give an alternative way to make money, the expansion focus (a true B2P model).

6. People come with things like “Anet knows what they do”. (They did say the same in a thread where I did go against the temporary content, where also the devs did come back on).

7. I explain with examples that also the devs / company can make mistakes and that also players can be right.

There is a thread about people talking about the game being boring, I place a comment in that thread where a part of these steps are talked about, and the comments to that, and my reactions to that eventually lead to those steps again.
I place a comment in a thread about grind and it happens again.

That then results in what you sum up. Fact is, ever since launch GW2 has been making less and less money. There LS approach did not prevent that. Also a lot of people complain about grind in this game. So instead of only telling what I say is not true I would like to hear people as you then tell what is the problem. Why do so many people refer to GW2 as Grind Wars 2? Why did that LS not be able to keep players busy? Why keeps income dropping while Anet has been using those mechanics to try and hold them?

As I am not here just to complain for the sake of complaining I only talk about the problems I really see (what stay the same as long as Anet does not fix them in whatever way). Most other complains I did have Anet eventually did fix. I guess if I complained about everything you would tell me I complain for the sake of it, but if I stay talking about the same problem that now suddenly is a negative. Isn’t that stage?

Some people complain about almost everything, other try to defend almost everything, I keep complaining about a set of problems I see with the game.

For as long I see this as the main problem I will keep mentioning it while I already am less active in the forum. Then again I also think HoT will be the last possibility for Anet to get it right. If half a year after HoT the grind is still there and the bunch of people that came back for HoT did leave again it will be to late (not saying the game will be dead, just that it will not be able to turn right what it did wrong) so if this did not change and numbers dropped again somewhere let’s say 8 months after HoT you won’t see any of these post from me anymore. At best a “I told you so” post.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

If the rewards are behind quest chains, it won’t take more than a couple of days before all the information on how to do it is in wiki. With a cooperative game like this where each person gets the loot, parties of fully geared level 80s will blow right through the quests to get the reward. Unless the content is gated in some manner or is made so hard that most rage quit, they’ll run through the quests that the Devs spent weeks working on then turn around and say, “Is that all?”

It should not all be behind quest (is not all black or white), it should also not all be very hard or all be very easy. It should be mixed. Some are behind quest (chains) some behind dungeons, some for crafting, some in a JP, some behind a mob or a boss or some other special fight like Liadri. (There is also the cage where you fight different beast in Timberline-Falls what you could use as mechanic to get rewards.) Also all those things can be of different difficulties. Or you can even make different difficulty variations of the same content that reward an ‘upgraded’ version of your item. Some will be easier faster to get, other harder and longer.

Just like the grind per item is different because one item cost more the another item.

Ziggro.7482:

Grind for non essencial items is the reason i play this game everyday. Remove the grind and i wont want to login anymore, i LIKE to grind.

The option to grind can stay. the requirement (to get those items) could go by allowing for alternative non-grind ways to get it. So no need to worry.

Celtic Lady.3729:

It seems to me like Devata wants certain in-game items, such as mini-pets, collection items, weapon/armor skins, etc. to be easier to acquire via in-game means. Some minis and skins aren’t even available in the game any longer, meaning people that play the game primarily to collect items will have a lot of holes in their collections and that isn’t fun for them.

Honestly, I don’t see what harm it would do if these items were easier to acquire overall. The sheer number of mini-pets and skins in the game, even if they were relatively easy to acquire, would take a very long time to get them all, thus negating peoples’ concerns that making items easier to get would leave people with nothing to do.

This is at the crux of her feeling there’s grind in the game, unless I’m misunderstanding her position completely.

Not so much easier, but being acquirable in-game directly from content. The rest if what you say is indeed in line with what I am saying.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

When looking at this thread I would think some of “defenders” / supporters of Anet are the biggest threat for the game. They come in here, dismiss everything without any real arguments, leave again to come back and do exactly the same a day later. If you really like the game you should try to participate but just trolling (as that really, is what it is) in a way to try and disrupt an ongoing discussion can at best harm the game.

~

Lol you are really funny.

“‘I hope Blizzard release ’’Titan’’ faster’”" Where did I say that, what thread are you talking about and in what context was it?
Please link it so we know what the heck you are talking about.

“You even make curculars comments without understanding a clue about what to say of the concequensies " Again no link or example, just some nonsense.

“’’Make a games for the FREAKS and ppl will come . Create a game for the casuals and the game Might die "
This one is even more funny as you read it so you know FREAKS was not a word I came up with but somebody else (I reacted on his comment) and he used it to refer to PC-gamers (not fans).
If you have to lie to try and make your point you know that usually means your wrong right?
Casuals was referring to console-games. (by leaving that out and placing it in this thread the context is completely lost, but then again, that’s the point right?) And the game this was about was Crysis where what I said has come true. (sales of Crysis 3 will be bad and we likely see no Crysis 4) Not bad considering I said that in 2011 based on what Crytec was doing then with Crysis 2.

“You didnt understand some simply maths such as cost to maintain the GW1 vs GW2 and how much money they need + how much population they had + how many developers they had in the 1st game , and you claimed that ‘’everything will be fine’’”
In fact the math was pretty easy, well maybe to hard for some. All the math did was compare percentage of income based on original sale and comparing that in GW1 to GW2. Then GW1 did it better. Also I did mention multiple times that that was working with all the information we did have. (As we do not have all the information)

“you are wasting our time ,” Luckily it’s completely optional for you to come in here and comment.

The funny thing about your comment is that I know you think you just placed a very strong comment but it’s really a little sad.

cranos.5913:

Devata.6589:

cranos.5913:

So none of the suggestions have actually “fixed” grinding for the people that like to play this game a lot. If there was no grind involved, I litterally would have everything already, and then what?

Like it or not, no grind would mean all rewards would be extremely easily optainable which means a lot less replay value of the current content.

The suggestion I made does not hurt the people who like the current grind, they can still do that.

It hurts everyone that plays the game a lot. Put all the rewards in game for no grind and ppl will have everything extremely soon because it’s just too easy to get. The only other options I see are extreme skill gates (but GW2 is a casual game) and time gates, which are terrible tbh.

Put all the rewards in game for no grind != ppl will have everything extremely soon.

That is really something you make of it. You can put things behind content and it can still take people a long time to get it.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Tokens are nice thing to have to the side. Like Dungeon x reward something with 100% change (complete it, and get it) then some RNG but at the same time some token system at least allows you to get some other things that should not be the mean goal but more like a nice to have. (much like the dungeon sets).

Make tokens the main way and it’s just as bad as what we already have. Tokens are just a currency and all the currencies in the game help to create this grind.

I also said that, in that thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/RNG-as-a-concept-Discuss/page/11#post4521223.
and
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/RNG-as-a-concept-Discuss/page/18#post4758907

From a developer viewpoint tokens / currencies are easy way to have control over the economy but from a game perspective it is sort of boring.

“If this was a new game it would be easier to set up” Well, it would be a option for HoT.

Currencies are the only way to get rid of grind not what is creating grind.

The problem thats creating grind is at its core Anet not wanting to add a new gear tier every 6 months (and thank god for that ) . Some people just dont find cosmetics something worth playing for. They want their chars to become more powerful. Even people who go for cosmetics , releasing a new cosmetic set to work towards every 6 months will not work because some might not like it, others might find it a bad fit for their chars etc.. That forces Anet to make sure their rewards last a really long time which means it has to take a long time to earn that reward which is where the grind is coming from.

The least grindy way to achieve that is when they first introduced ascended gear. 30 laurels and you get a nice piece of ascended gear. All it takes to take 30 laurels is on average (strictly speaking you can do it in 20 days but..) is finish 30 dailies which back then was really play 30 minutes of whatever you feel like. That was really 0 grind thanks to 2 elements, a currency (IE you’re not forced into specific content types you might find boring) and time gating (IE they could just require 30 mins of game time from us just to reward us with a day worth of effort). Problem is people hated that. they felt they were wasting their time since only 30 mins of a potentially 8 hour game session was put towards their goal and they just didnt want to wait 30 days for their reward.

What made it grindy was dropping those 2 elements. without time gating the effort required could no longer be 30 mins per day, it had to be average play hours per day. Whats more for the most part it allowed people to pursuit their goal 24/7 IE while before people were free to play what they wanted all the time they can forced themselves to just work for the rewards and not have any actual fun make the grind feel much worst.

Currency was just never the problem. It was the solution but unfortunately one which went against human nature. Tragedy is while people complain about the grind its really what they want subconsciously. I know its a bold statement. But ask yourselves this.. would you rather have what we have now or we you rather go back to the old daily system (assume zeroed laurels)

“Currencies are the only way to get rid of grind not what is creating grind.” Currencies by themselves don’t have to be the reason for grind, but they for sure are not the way to get rid of it.

“The problem thats creating grind is at its core Anet not wanting to add a new gear tier every 6 months ” I really don’t see how this would be the reason for grind.

“That forces Anet to make sure their rewards last a really long time which means it has to take a long time to earn that reward which is where the grind is coming from. ” The items you just say people might not want. Not to mention time time does not equal grind. No this really has nothing to do with the grind.

“. But ask yourselves this.. would you rather have what we have now or we you rather go back to the old daily system ”
Like I said, what you mentioned here has not much to do with grind. I did prefer the old system better because it was more optional while I like the fact that later there was a little more choice with the dailies but I stopped doing dailies a long long time ago. No this is (for me) completely unrelated to the grind I talk about.

CETheLucid.3964:

Devata.6589:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

When looking at this thread I would think some of “defenders” / supporters of Anet are the biggest thread for the game. They come in here, dismiss everything without any real arguments, leave again to come back and do exactly the same a day later. If you really like the game you should try to participate but just trolling (as that really, is what it is) in a way to try and disrupt and ongoing discussion can at best harm the game.

What about trying to push people who just make that circular grind argument away to try to discuss what the heck to do about the grind?

Oh, wait, because I enjoy the game mostly as-is, I must be one of the threats. Nevermind.

No you aren’t. While we may disagree on points you give arguments explain what you think and why. that is perfectly fine.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/2#post4729972
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/2#post4730145
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/3#post4730757
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/3#post4731500
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/9#post4743313

There you go. I’ve already made my case in the prior thread before it went into the double digits.

If you want to simulate a 30+ page merry-go-round of circular argument, you can reread it every new page that this one gets to your hearts content.

If you say anything that isn’t more or less a repeat of what you already had to say back then, I’ll consider a more meaningful reply. Maybe.

I’ll dip my little toe into the argument now and then, and that’s my choice to make. But when it comes to forum grinding, I’m a filthy casual. Just too grindy for my blood.

Sorry.

CETheLucid.3964:

Devata.6589:

Like I said multiple times. Nothing is mandatory!! It’s a game, the whole thing is optional.

And no, not everything is a grind if it also applies to optional things (what everything is).

Okay then, by your admission, everything is a grind. Gotcha. You’re wrong mind you, but at least we all know what spin you’re trying to sell.

Sure, so because you made your point before that gives you the right to now just troll the forum with comments like

“… According to every schmuck and half-wit who wants to define literally anything as grind.
Yes. Grind is grind.”

Or conclude from a sentence where I say “And no, not everything is a grind” that according to me everything (whatever everything might be) is a grind.

No matter if you made your point before, comments like those don’t add anything to the discussion and can only be seen as trolling.

About a lot of repeating going on. Yes that is true. That is also because a lot of different people ask the same questions or people want to talk about something in more detail, that means half of the comment is already a repeat, only the detailed part is new. Same for examples.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

When looking at this thread I would think some of “defenders” / supporters of Anet are the biggest threat for the game. They come in here, dismiss everything without any real arguments, leave again to come back and do exactly the same a day later. If you really like the game you should try to participate but just trolling (as that really, is what it is) in a way to try and disrupt an ongoing discussion can at best harm the game.

hold your horses now… what do you mean no real arguments?

Something like “Lets talk about who cares? And get over it.” and there are a few other comments of this same level.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

When I am a collector, some other game sends me all over the world, rewarding a specific item for a specific content. Giving more meaning to the item and making the hunt for items more fun.

When you are a collector in GW2 you can’t hunt down most of the items directly. It’s all about gold (or some other currency) and maybe there are then 6 or so methods to get that gold. (dungeons, farm train (of what we have 3? types) and farming world-bosses)

So while you have some choice in how to grind the gold, it still is, want item x? grind gold, next item, grind gold, next item grind gold and so on.

Of course at the same time new items are being added all the time, and let not fool each other. In the current system it’s supposed to be a grind in the hope people will buy there way out of it by buying gems to buy gold or buy the item. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CbWr0zO7Ac&t=2m26s

So there is a very big difference from being a collector in GW2 or in such other game.

Only in the short term, every single collection item is an item that drops and every single one of them drops from multiple places so yeah you’d burn out if you try going farming every item in the exotic collection. But if you’re playing the game you’ll be killing champions and earning champion bags and what not. In turn that will give you one of the collection items now and again. Granted personally I had 4 drop on me. Thats like 4 in a year.. out of 34 so baring duplicates it will take 8 years to finish it all which is crazy long no doubt. 1 is already in… had this been something added at launch I’d already be nearly 1/2 way in without even having to put any effort into it.

As for other games, which games are you talking about? cause the ones that do collections that I am aware of (rift, eq2, neverwinter, WoW) arent really that much different. Both in rift and Eq2 what is called shines are heavily dependent on rng. they’re not much different then what gw2 does. you either spend a really long time hunting them down or much easier you buy them. Most people do a bit of both.

Neverwinter is even worst. some collections require massive grinds while others require buying directly for real money.

Wow has a mix, but it too has some collections that can only be completed by spending real money (and thats with a sub no less) while others require massive grinds or you buy what you need off the AH which we know what most people do when faced with this choice

Gw2 seem pretty in line with what others too, make no mistake, not saying gw2 is better, its not. while strictly speaking its entirely possible to complete every collection without spending a single cent its not really realistic. I am not sure anyone can really make enough gold to finish all those black lion weapon sets in an entire life time. but likewise I dont think its possible to complete every collection in the other mmos either not even if you have access to unlimited amount of in game money. Dont think collections are things you’re meant to ever fully complete.

You are mixing up ‘collections’ with collectors. What I reacted on was somebody talking about collectors. So people who like to collect items, like going out for an item they like, and then another one and so on.

Let’s say I want to collect mini’s in WoW there are many ways to do that, but most I can directly work towards. They are in a dungeon, behind a quest, dropped by a mob, rewarded for an achievement, created with an craft or cached in the world and some are being sold by vendors (usually those are pretty cheap) and then maybe a few would only be obtainable by grind. Can’t remind coming by any of those by I trust your word for it.

Now compare that to GW2. A few you can get in these ways but by far most are not realistically or factually not available in another way then buying them with gold.

So GW2 is far from online with the others on this part.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

~

~

“. wouldnt it feel a ton more grindy if you’re trying to get something that will drop once in an average of 100 days then it is trying to get something that drops an average of 3 per day? technically its exactly the same but the fact you’re doing a little progress each and every day tricks us into thinking its less grindy.”
This is probably personal what explains why some people prefer to grind some currency to get there item and others prefer to work toward items directly. That is also why in my solution I do allow people to grind, I just simply not make it the only real option.
But to give my answer.. no it does not. It feels way less grindy or more fun. When you work with a currency you know it will take you 100 days, so slowly you see this number going up, no surprises, one you did your first run you know there are 99 left.
With direct drops there is always the rush of ‘will it drop’. You might be lucky and have it the first run, or unlucky and then it will take you to run 150. Every run a rush, or every run some number going up (or counting down how many runs left). Well I consider the number boring, and the rush a rush.

“1. 100 runs instead of 600 is definitely a lot better but 100 runs of doing something you dont enjoy is still much worst then doing something else you enjoy and will still feel more grindy (being you dont enjoy it)” You mean the earn gold with something else and buy it. However, this option is still available, at least for all the items that are not account-bound. Also if you make an item not account-bound what I would do and suggest is to put similar items behind different type of content. But sure, in those cases if you want that specific item and it’s account-bound you do have this problem. On the other hand that also adds more value for the item imho.

“2. time gating. based on past experience people hate being forced to limit their effort to just 30 minutes a day out of their game session working towards the goal they want.”
This is a little strange to come up with.. You time gated it. I just simply kept within your time-gated scope. You said it had to take 100 days. That means you time-gate it to 100 days. And in fact in my solution it’s only a average time-gate, you could still get it the first day. I agree with you people dislike time-gating but that’s the scope you give, not my choice.

“3. for an average of 100 runs you will get nothing of value towards your goal, there will be no small gratification to offset that grindy feel which i do believe will make the feeling worst”
Who said there could be no other rewards? Or do you mean if you simply look at the eco’s / currency vs none. Sure when we only look at that your right, but then again, how interesting is the currency if it’s useless to you until you buy the item? That currency is not so much a reward as it’s a mean to get the reward. But again this might be different for different people.

Point 4 is similar in nature to point 1 and also the same answer applies there.

“
1. Incentives people to run more dungeons
2. force people to not burn out (if you dont enjoy it at least you only have to do it for 30 mins a day max)
3. potentially help pugs find more teams to play with due to larger dungeon demand
4. make the reward feel more meaningful since you had to do specific work rather then just “goof” around for 100 days.”

I partly disagree with advantage 1. This would only be true for the rng part inside a dungeon. What is only a part of my suggestion. But sure, for that part it’s true.

2 and 3 are more side things, again also more focus on this specific example, not so much on my complete suggestion that does not only involve dungeons or rng.

Number 4 I agree with completely and I would add, makes the game (feel) less grindy.

The disadvantages. 1 depends on your playstyle and exact implementation. (not true for items that are not account-bound but that would lower positive point 4) and there are ways to lower this disadvantage but sure that is a possibility.

2 Is completely true but is a limit being created for this example. So true when you would want to turn the current system into what I suggested. Not true for my suggestion in general.

3. If we only look at the currency (not at other rewards you get at the same time) true or false depending on the person.

Goldrock.9076:

Back in my day its wasnt grind it was immersive and it was called Hunting when you wanted something bad enough you would go hunt the creatures for it and that is how MMO’s have always been played if you didnt have said grind the game would just be one big theme park and linear as all hell. I miss the old eq1 days of kicking back and hunting or camping certain areas though in todays age people would call it grind back them we called it socializing and hanging out hunting critters.

Well as far as I know it was always hunting down an item (that means going directly for an item and is what I talk about). That could in some cases mean farming a dungeon or a mob.

Or farm mats (usually this was easy and fast done.. going to farm some mats, brb).

Or grinding for gold. This was doing specific things that rewarded gold you then used to buy what you needed.

Hunting critters? I did never hear somebody say something like that.

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

“The token system has advantages that they can update the merchants inventory and have people flocking in to play in that map again. "
It’s easy for sure, but that does not make it fun. Besides quest would not have to be the hardest thing to put in a game. Obviously it is indeed more work them simply adding new items behind an already existing currency (grind).

Sorry but token systems don’t work and it’s not because they are not fun or grindy or boring. The tokens in this game have one major flaw, they have no cap.

So when players get all they want with tokens from a specific type of content, if that content also awards gold or materials, they will continue running it and accumulate a vast amount of tokens (that they have no use for).

Then, once the token merchants are “updated” Anet will have to make the prices of new items rather high, to account for older players, but the high prices will be bad for newer players.

The best token in the game are Guild Merits because they cap at 250. So guilds cannot accumulate thousand upon thousand of merits to “get ready” for Guild Halls. Now, if Anet wants to add specific Guild Hall features behind merits, they can do it easily and have good requirements, instead of some insane requirements.

We saw what happened with the new skills they introduced. The original system of skills costing a couple of skill points wasn’t going to work now that players had loads of skill points on their characters, so they increased the cost of acquiring new skills a LOT -making it harder for newer players to get those skills.

Other players asked to make karma more important, but karma has the exact same problem with tokens. Players get karma by doing anything, and they don’t need to spend it, therefore they can get millions of karma, creating a huge difference between old and new players and forcing the developers (if they add anything with karma) to have some insane prices.

Think about it, if all currencies in the game, Badges of Honor, Karma, Dungeon Tokens, LS tokens etc had an upper cap, we wouldn’t NEED new currencies anymore. Simply add new things on the merchant for a set amount of tokens and you are done, due to the cap, no player would be able to get everything by the time it’s released. So new content could award old currencies without any problem.

Heck they could even add an upper cap for gold too, so after some amount of gold, players would be “forced” to invest in some items, like how GW1 worked. Although that’s much harder to do due to the TP.

tl;dr make all currencies work like guild merits (give them an upper cap), then the game won’t need any new currencies at all

That was a quote and I also don’t think tokens are very good. They could be a side thing but that should be it.

I don’t agree we should cap all currencies but we sure could do with way less currencies and less of it (reward less in currency and more in direct loot people are after, but that’s really in short my suggestion)

serenke.4806:

Dear Devata.

Please stop complaining about grind when there is none. You can get anything you would ever want in the game by doing whatever you feel like doing at that particular moment. It might take longer than the “optimal” method but you WILL get there eventually.

The one thing you have to change is your attitude. Don’t look at XY shiny you want to get and don’t check how much gold you still need to get it. Just play the game for fun, don’t do stuff you don’t remotely enjoy. One day you’ll notice you can afford that shiny and you will enjoy having it even more because you did not grind for it.

“Please stop complaining about grind when there is none.” Sure when there is no more grind I will not complain anymore.

“You can get anything you would ever want in the game by doing whatever you feel like doing at that particular moment.” All nice on paper but in practice it works differently and that is why so many people consider this game to be so grindy. What is the real problem.

Besides, what I feel like doing is hunting down items directly but for most items that’s not possible.

“It might take longer than the “optimal” method but you WILL get there eventually." This would only be true if you look at the items individually. You want item x, just wait and you get the gold, you want item y, just wait and you get it, you want z, just wait and you get it. Sure.. But you want x, y and z (that are not all items!) and of all the items added in a month there is one you want, you will only get further behind. (what is obviously mend to be the case from a financial perspective, that is what is supposed to get people to spend money.. But I am looking at it form a game perspective)

Not that this (not being able to get all items you like, or running what behind) itself is the biggest problem, but it does show where this theoretic answer fails in reality.

“The one thing you have to change is your attitude. " It’s not an attitude, liking to hunt down items is a game-play. You know ‘play the way you want’. Hunting down items is a huge part of the end-game for a large group of players in many mmo’s. Including in GW2 but here that is mainly grinding gold.
And when I say ‘including GW2’ I mean especially for GW2 as GW2 is built so much around cosmetics so it would attract people who like this sort of stuff. (again, from a financial point not strange that they then monetize that part (likely the biggest group), but from a game perspective the result is not so good). It would be an educated guess to expect many of those people eventually left (grinding is not what they want, and buying what they want also gets old), with HoT coming up many of them will return so it’s now important to manage to hold them this time. Scare them away again and they won’t be back for expansion 2.

“. Just play the game for fun, don’t do stuff you don’t remotely enjoy.” I don’t. That does not mean I do not see the grind and a huge part of the end-game (hunting down item) is a grind. It simply results in playing less and less. Waiting and hoping Guild-halls will create new interesting and fun stuff to do with the guild and hoping the changes to WvW will bring what WvW needs at this time.

“One day you’ll notice you can afford that shiny and you will enjoy having it even more because you did not grind for it.” I would enjoy it most if I hunted it down because that gives the item more value for a game perspective. You completed x content to get that item. Much like many people point to Liadri as the mini they are most proud of.

cranos.5913:

So none of the suggestions have actually “fixed” grinding for the people that like to play this game a lot. If there was no grind involved, I litterally would have everything already, and then what?

Like it or not, no grind would mean all rewards would be extremely easily optainable which means a lot less replay value of the current content.

The suggestion I made does not hurt the people who like the current grind, they can still do that.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

When looking at this thread I would think some of “defenders” / supporters of Anet are the biggest thread for the game. They come in here, dismiss everything without any real arguments, leave again to come back and do exactly the same a day later. If you really like the game you should try to participate but just trolling (as that really, is what it is) in a way to try and disrupt and ongoing discussion can at best harm the game.

What about trying to push people who just make that circular grind argument away to try to discuss what the heck to do about the grind?

Oh, wait, because I enjoy the game mostly as-is, I must be one of the threats. Nevermind.

No you aren’t. While we may disagree on points you give arguments explain what you think and why. that is perfectly fine.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Devata.6589:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

(My opinion)

Most games have replayability through gear grind doing dungeons or raids. Since ANet doesn’t have that, they have aimed their replayability towards cosmetic grind, The quest line type is “do once then it’s over with.”. You don’t repeat the quest, there is no replayability.

Perhaps I’m wrong but to me the quest line type OP is asking for fits in more with the old linear type games. In those, the game gives you quests and leveling to do, then endgame gear grind content. The people do those and with the next expansion it repeats. It’s more “on rails”.

ANet wants a game where there is as little “one time and done” content as possible. I could see them putting in quests for a few specific items, but not as a major feature of the game because, truthfully, it’s a lot of work and once it’s done it’s abandoned. The token system has advantages that they can update the merchants inventory and have people flocking in to play in that map again.

So this is my opinion as to why they aren’t going to put in quest type content.

First of all I am not talking about endgame gear grind and I did also not suggest that anywhere.

For most people events are a one thing as well so not much changes there. In fact, the fact that people see events repeating also makes it feel less of you making a change.

Traditional quest mixed with events would be a nice thing as it allows for getting a better connection with the world (you learn more about NPC’s and there place in the world) it gives more a feeling of making a difference (you helped that npc) and more on topic it’s a good way to rewards items.

Sure it’s something you can only do once but isn’t that also why is makes it less of a grind (what we try to achieve in this topic).

“The token system has advantages that they can update the merchants inventory and have people flocking in to play in that map again. "
It’s easy for sure, but that does not make it fun. Besides quest would not have to be the hardest thing to put in a game. Obviously it is indeed more work them simply adding new items behind an already existing currency (grind).

If you read what I was talking about, it wasn’t about endgame gear grind but where games put grind and why.

I was trying to explain by comparison. I’ll try again.

Games have to have grind to keep people playing. The games with endgame gear grind put it there, with the quests you talk about as filler content. Guild Wars 2 has endgame cosmetic grind to keep people playing long term. Quests for cosmetic items as a one time and done don’t fit. It would be like having WoW put its endgame gear grind behind a one and done quest line system instead of doing repeated dungeons and raids.

That’s why ANet is putting in the token system with the merchants selling cosmetic items with map tokens. Lots of replayability. It’s ANet’s version of grinding dungeons for gear. And it’s why they won’t put items in a one and done quest line.

“It would be like having WoW put its endgame gear grind behind a one and done quest line system instead of doing repeated dungeons and raids.”
Let’s not forget, quests is only one part of what I suggested and this example you give is interesting because endgame for me in WoW was not the ‘gear grind’. It was the hunt for those cosmetics (and hunt for hunter-pets and fun crafts like engineering). Those cosmetics are in many cases locked behind those quest and quest-chains. Also in dungeons, but all of them, not just the highest level raids.

You are wrong to think that gear grind is ‘the’ endgame for WoW, it’s the endgame in WoW for just a group of WoW players, while cosmetics hunt is the end-game for another group and RPing is it for yet another group and PvP is the endgame for another group and so on.

So the end-game you seem to suggest is not possible is exactly the end-game for me in many MMO’s including WoW. But funny enough, in this game that is all about cosmetics, it’s not.

eithinan.9841:

bloodletting wolf.2837:

tigirius.9014:

Here’s the end all solution for the argument of needing a new currency. Karma. It’s completely under-utilized and it needs to be used to directly purchase the items that are simply too expensive and growing in expense in the TP that are used for Ascended gear. Also people need to realize that not everything is equal in this game, some people do continue to experience problems getting any kind of meaningful loot right now! Whole accounts are cut off from it which adds to the frustration.

You seriously still believe in the unlucky accounts? I have watched you on the forums spouting this for over 2 years and no one that I play with has a luckier or unluckier account than any one else. Add to the fact that you have claimed multiple times to have quit————I don’t even know what to say anymore. TLDR: I want a tin foil hat in the gem store so I can mail it to this guy.

I am still trying to figure out what he meant by this.

tigirius.9014:

People keep forgetting that not everyone has the same access to loot in this game.

Devata.6589:

When looking at this thread I would think some of “defenders” / supporters of Anet are the biggest threat for the game. They come in here, dismiss everything without any real arguments, leave again to come back and do exactly the same a day later. If you really like the game you should try to participate but just trolling (as that really, is what it is) in a way to try and disrupt and ongoing discussion can at best harm the game.

FTFY.

but if this is referring to me, I said what I have had to say. Nothing has been posted that contradicts what I have said that has any basis in reality, soooo, I am not going to repeat my self. I will simply participate in this whacked out discussion giving it the respect it deserves.

It was not referring to you, it was also not referring to one person in particular but the type of comments that really have no goal of participating other than trolling in 1 to max 3 lines. And I honestly believe they think believe that there contribution is helping the game by ‘attack’ those who have a complain. Obviously it doesn’t.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

(My opinion)

Most games have replayability through gear grind doing dungeons or raids. Since ANet doesn’t have that, they have aimed their replayability towards cosmetic grind, The quest line type is “do once then it’s over with.”. You don’t repeat the quest, there is no replayability.

Perhaps I’m wrong but to me the quest line type OP is asking for fits in more with the old linear type games. In those, the game gives you quests and leveling to do, then endgame gear grind content. The people do those and with the next expansion it repeats. It’s more “on rails”.

ANet wants a game where there is as little “one time and done” content as possible. I could see them putting in quests for a few specific items, but not as a major feature of the game because, truthfully, it’s a lot of work and once it’s done it’s abandoned. The token system has advantages that they can update the merchants inventory and have people flocking in to play in that map again.

So this is my opinion as to why they aren’t going to put in quest type content.

First of all I am not talking about endgame gear grind and I did also not suggest that anywhere.

For most people events are a one time thing as well so not much changes there. In fact, the fact that people see events repeating also makes it feel less of you making a change.

Traditional quest mixed with events would be a nice thing as it allows for getting a better connection with the world (you learn more about NPC’s and there place in the world) it gives more a feeling of making a difference (you helped that npc) and more on topic it’s a good way to rewards items.

Sure it’s something you can only do once but isn’t that also why is makes it less of a grind (what we try to achieve in this topic).

“The token system has advantages that they can update the merchants inventory and have people flocking in to play in that map again. "
It’s easy for sure, but that does not make it fun. Besides quest would not have to be the hardest thing to put in a game. Obviously it is indeed more work them simply adding new items behind an already existing currency (grind).

Just a flesh wound.3589:

I doubt that they will ever do the ‘quest for items’ collection method. That requires a quest line for every new item they want to put into the game. They seem to be going towards the ‘tokens for playing in the map’ method instead.

There was a long thread about RNG, that has fallen off the front page now that they’ve (dis)improved the forum, called RNG as a concept: Discuss. In that thread, which was started by ANet economist John Smith, the posters in there strongly recommended the token system and ANet has taken those recommendations and put that system into the Silverwastes and Dry Top maps with items sold by merchants that can only be purchased with in map tokens (geodes and badges).

If this was a new game it would be easier to set up from the start OPs suggestion for all the things that could be collected, but at this late date, I suspect it will be tokens instead,

Tokens are nice thing to have to the side. Like Dungeon x reward something with 100% change (complete it, and get it) then some RNG but at the same time some token system at least allows you to get some other things that should not be the main goal but more like a nice to have. (much like the dungeon sets).

Make tokens the main way and it’s just as bad as what we already have. Tokens are just a currency and all the currencies in the game help to create this grind.

I also said that, in that thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/RNG-as-a-concept-Discuss/page/11#post4521223.
and
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/RNG-as-a-concept-Discuss/page/18#post4758907

From a developer viewpoint tokens / currencies are easy way to have control over the economy but from a game perspective it is sort of boring.

“If this was a new game it would be easier to set up” Well, it would be a option for HoT.

Panites.6798:

So all i have gained from this thread is the realization that there are more self entitled players in this game than it thought. MMOs need a type of grind to keep those players in the game that want to achieve something that takes time.

Most people need goals or visions of what they want to achieve in the future. Working for money is a grind but people do it to achieve a set thing over time.
Without any grind in a MMO, people would only pvp’/wvw for competition and no one would PvE, which is a huge part of the game. There would be no crown pavilion because it is a grind, no marionette, no wintersday, no dragon bash, no SAB, not evne fractals of dungeons. There is no room for anything that involves more than 1 hour of participation because then it becomes a grind.

Sure the game isn’t optimized for those who want to achieve everything in 1 hour, but without it people wouldn’t play the game. You cant please everyone.

Play another game if the minimal grind that is fully optional offends you. We have a cosmetic grind that NEEDS to be long to keep people in the game.

Nobody here said it goals to be short. It did get mention by people like you saying that is what people asked for.. but in reality nobody asked for that.