You don’t have to stay there and do that event each time it comes up. Move on and do other events.
THIS ^
You don’t have to stay in the same spot of the same map to do the same event over and over and over again, unless you want to of course. The world is massive. Go somewhere else and do something else.
Go somewhere else and so something else…. to grind gold to buy the item you would like to hunt down.
It’s still grinding gold no matter if you do it here, or there.
Sorry but when you raise a reputation in WoW to get a mini that you “hunt” by doing the same daily quest everyday for more than a month you call it a farm but doing so in GW2 you call it a grind…
Did you grind or hunt Mawdrey? Did you grind or hunt your Ascended gear?Anyway you will reject that comment saying I just debate the semantic.
Can you tell me where I said grinding for reputation was the farming I talked about? I mean, your post is lovely and the perfect straw man http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man . I say the worse of the ways you can still hunt items down is farming.. Then YOU, not me, make up in your mind, or spin it around that this farming I mention is grinding for reputation.. And then your response is that it’s stupid to call this grind for reputation farming in a attempt to dismiss my post. Lol.
I mean.. genius.. anybody who can’t see straw mans would have no idea what to say. Sadly enough I so see them a mile away. I do however always wonder if people do it on purpose or if there mind is playing tricks on them and they don’t even notice it them-self.
The farming I talked about are the mini’s that drop from a group of mobs with a low drop chance. Usually it’s still pretty doable because what they then also do it put a large number of those mobs in one spot so people can run in circles killing them until it drops. That is the farming I talked about. That is the most boring version of hunting down (because you do still actively go for one item) an item Luckily it’s then mixed with quest to hunt down items or dungeon rewards and craft rewards. This versus the GW2 way where by far most items you can not directly work towards (hunting down) other then grinding gold to buy them.
Doing what you suggest (doing the same daily quest everyday for more than a month for reputation) would indeed be a grind and not hunting down an item, but I personally never did run into that problem when hunting down items. And I think now these things (mini’s and I think also toys) are account-bound that is even less a thing because usually you will gain reputation already with other groups based on your faction or race.
(edited by Devata.6589)
So to the question where does grind start I’d answer : “when people prefer to be efficient and do activities they don’t enjoy, only to possess something they think they absolutely need.”
Well I do not do those activities (the grind). But when I would like to hunt down items it’s my only choice. So I see the grind is there, I don’t do it but then are left with a more boring game.
I find this conversation hilarious because the same one is going on in two other forums for games that I play right now. The Exact Same Conversation.
Not sure why that is then hilarious but it for sure is a problem you see in more games. In fact, because this is a problem in multiple games this game even used it to promote the game with the ‘no-grind-philosophy’.
It’s hilarious because you don’t see it in more games lately, it has ALWAYS been there.
The option maybe, but hunting down items in the mmo’s I played (including WoW) was a hunt, not a grind. All items I did go for where a hunt at worse some where a farm.
So I never had this grind you have in GW2 in WoW (as an example).
“I would love for a lot of these players that complain about grind to go play some of the PC games from the late 80’s and early 90’s. “Over 60 hours of gameplay” back in the day meant 60 hours of grind and 60 hours of actually playing.”
When I see people using bad excuses a lot in a topic you know who is trying to defend what is wrong. So far in this topic those defending the grind.
Start debating terms and semantic, tell people to go play another game and now point to games that are worse. There are probably worse games, that does not make it right.
(edited by Devata.6589)
33 pages of “Colin said this” vs “No, he said that”
WTF does it matter what he said or what he meant?? And do any of you realize that the argument you are having is actually about what “grind” means, which is entirely subjective and differs from player to player? Also, to the people arguing there is a grind in this game, why don’t you just kittening do something else if you don’t like it? This is the stupidest thread, and you people are arguing for no kittening reason other than nobody will let it go.
Specifically the blame for this thread falls on the people who continually refer to Colin’s statements in the Manifesto as if they were in any way a legally binding agreement. Guess what? Things change in 4 years! Even if you’re 100% right about what he said, and not twisting it for your own argument (which is a joke, because that’s exactly what you’re doing), who cares if things are different now? That’s how the universe works! If you can’t deal with it, your life is going to look like this thread. Is that what you want?
So, seeing as no amount of asinine debating is going to change the reality of the game, those of you who are legitimately upset about this are left with a couple options:
1. Get over it and stop playing GW2
2. Get over it and keep playing GW2I swear… this thread moved past constructiveness long ago and should be locked ASAP. This is just ridiculous, and you should all feel bad for continuing to engage in this pointless conversation.
“And do any of you realize that the argument you are having is actually about what “grind” means” No, those defending it are having the discussion what grind is. The other people simply explain what they experience in the game as grind and how that effects the game. You see there are many people who feel that, some of them who indeed left (and come back with HoT).
“Also, to the people arguing there is a grind in this game, why don’t you just kittening do something else if you don’t like it?” sure, the same old argument if you don’t have an argument. You could of course say that for every complain on forum and as we would dismiss any complain why not simply remove the forums. But if all complains would be ignored the game would be in worse shape.
I agree with you about those going on about what Colin said and promised way outside of what was relevant for the thread. But luckily that seems to be over now.
I find this conversation hilarious because the same one is going on in two other forums for games that I play right now. The Exact Same Conversation.
Not sure why that is then hilarious but it for sure is a problem you see in more games. In fact, because this is a problem in multiple games this game even used it to promote the game with the ‘no-grind-philosophy’.
I do think that GW2 is grindy. I think all MMOs, to some extent are grindy.
Do people think that it’s possible to have a long term goal that isn’t grindy? By that I mean a goal that keeps players occupied in the time between when different content patches are released?
Why does it have to be one big goal? could it not also be many different smaller goals? and yes I think that is very well possible.
It’s how I played other mmo’s and I did never feel a heavy grind there, nothing close to what GW2 offers, if I was to do what I like (hunting down items, from cosmetics, to hunter pets). Now I do not do that in GW2 because I dislike the grind but is does mean a big part of the game and ‘the way I like to play’ is gone making the game as total more boring as it could be.
You design a game that is all build around cosmetics, talk about a no-grind-philosophy and that people can play the way they want. But in the same game the only way to get those cosmetics is by grinding for them and if you like to hunt them down it’s not possible to play that way. How and why are people even defending this or do they think this does not affect the game in a negative way as total?
~snip for space
Same here. They designed a lot of stuff in such a way to make sure grinding could be avoided. Designs that had costs associated with them (like having gold a currency that could be used to acquire nearly everything for example) That made a lot of things less fun then they could be and caused them quite a few PR nightmares but it was necessary in the grand scheme of things. Its the major driver of how people can easily avoid grinding.
You are right for the biggest part. I also always say it depends on your playstyle.
However the ‘design choice’ to make everything based on gold is a little strange. You see, if they would really find this important the only thing they would have to do is make all items not account-bound (Personally I think some should be, and some should not.. but that’s another discussion).
Then put items behind specific content so those who like to hunt down items still can. Now the option to hunt is there (Obviously this is a problem for the cash-shop approach but then again, that is why we did buy a B2P game and not a F2P game and why I also always mention that and how they should focus on expansions). But the option to grind for gold.. or like you say, play like you want and earn gold that way, is also there. All those items that are not account-bound will end up on the TP so you will be able to buy them.
Now those who like to hunt down items can, and those who like to grind can and those who want to do other stuff, get some money and one in a while buy something they like buy.
So I think it’s a little strange to think they somehow had to design it this way to prevent the need to grind and let people play the way they want. Because the opposite is true. Now people cannot play the way they want, if what they want is hunting down items.
No it’s more likely they designed it this way in a way to earn money on those items, so not with best interest of the game but pure financially. What can be very well defended in a F2P game as you mention but imho not in a B2P game.
this design had nothing to do with improving the game or making it so that people could play the way they liked and if it was it was the worse design ever because it resulting in exactly the opposite.
I would talk about WoW a lot less, if you haven’t played it. There are things in WoW you can only get from the cash shop and there’s NO OPTION to grind for those things. You can only buy them cash.
And like the stuff in the Guild Wars 2 cash shop, they’re cosmetic.
For the rest of the stuff, you can farm for stuff, or you can buy it, or you can just play the game casually and not have to buy everything that comes out. If you make the game all about acquisition and nothing else, sure you’ll probably end up grinding.
Glad I don’t play that way.
“I would talk about WoW a lot less, if you haven’t played it. There are things in WoW you can only get from the cash shop and there’s NO OPTION to grind for those things. You can only buy them cash.”
I did play it and yes there are a few of those items (so little that in a list of about 300 mounts I wanted to hunt down, only 10 where not possible because they were in the cash-shop or on a card game or something like that). Still the majority I can hunt down in the world, while the majority in GW2 I can only grind for. Really I rather have a few items I can’t get at all (without buying) and by far most that I can hunt down in the world. Then to be able to get them almost all but by far most only by grinding (or by buying) and a small number I can directly hunt down in the world.
This is because I want to have fun in the game, and I don’t consider grinding boring, not fun.
“or you can just play the game casually and not have to buy everything that comes out.” Oow I am not talking about all. Just once in a few a new thing gets added that you might like. It would still be out of reach with ‘casual’ playing.
“If you make the game all about acquisition and nothing else, sure you’ll probably end up grinding.” Well for me an MMORPG is for a large part about that yes, not only but a large part. I like the hunt. Not a problem in most MMO’s, in fact it’s a lot of fun, but in GW2 that’s just a boring grind. Nice for you, you don’t play that way but many do.. Why do you think Anet does focus so much on cosmetics? Because it knows people like that. But then they also decide to monetize that hoping people with spend cash on it instead of playing for it resulting in people grinding for it but the hunt for it is dead.
Irrelevant though. If you wanted a sparkle pony you had to buy it with cash. It was your only option. Period. End of story. Done.
Guild Wars 2 at least gives you two options for cash shop stuff.
Anyway I think your entire outlook on this whole not just grind situation but game situation is completely unrealistic. I truly believe the game you think they could make can’t be made today with today’s market situation.
“Irrelevant though. If you wanted a sparkle pony you had to buy it with cash. It was your only option. Period. End of story. Done.” We are talking about playing the game in general (and how that feels grindy to many people), not about how to get one specific item. So sorry but the only thing irrelevant here is this statement of yours.
“Guild Wars 2 at least gives you two options for cash shop stuff.” Grind (the problem we talk about) and cash. And it puts most new stuff in the in the cash-shop resulting for a big part of the grind we see. Yes.
“I truly believe the game you think they could make can’t be made today with today’s market situation.” Are you now saying.. “yeah it’s bad, but better is not possible”?, I think it is and I have seen better examples of things like hunting down items vs grind in other games.
I would talk about WoW a lot less, if you haven’t played it. There are things in WoW you can only get from the cash shop and there’s NO OPTION to grind for those things. You can only buy them cash.
And like the stuff in the Guild Wars 2 cash shop, they’re cosmetic.
For the rest of the stuff, you can farm for stuff, or you can buy it, or you can just play the game casually and not have to buy everything that comes out. If you make the game all about acquisition and nothing else, sure you’ll probably end up grinding.
Glad I don’t play that way.
“I would talk about WoW a lot less, if you haven’t played it. There are things in WoW you can only get from the cash shop and there’s NO OPTION to grind for those things. You can only buy them cash.”
I did play it and yes there are a few of those items (so little that in a list of about 300 mounts I wanted to hunt down, only 10 where not possible because they were in the cash-shop or on a card game or something like that). Still the majority I can hunt down in the world, while the majority in GW2 I can only grind for. Really I rather have a few items I can’t get at all (without buying) and by far most that I can hunt down in the world. Then to be able to get them almost all but by far most only by grinding (or by buying) and a small number I can directly hunt down in the world.
This is because I want to have fun in the game, and I don’t consider grinding boring, not fun.
“or you can just play the game casually and not have to buy everything that comes out.” Oow I am not talking about all. Just once in a few a new thing gets added that you might like. It would still be out of reach with ‘casual’ playing.
“If you make the game all about acquisition and nothing else, sure you’ll probably end up grinding.” Well for me an MMORPG is for a large part about that yes, not only but a large part. I like the hunt. Not a problem in most MMO’s, in fact it’s a lot of fun, but in GW2 that’s just a boring grind. Nice for you, you don’t play that way but many do.. Why do you think Anet does focus so much on cosmetics? Because it knows people like that. But then they also decide to monetize that hoping people with spend cash on it instead of playing for it resulting in people grinding for it but the hunt for it is dead.
Oh, okay. lol I didn’t realize there are many trains left in the game. The only one that comes to mind atm is the Frostgorge Champ train.
Silverwaste, you have to logout and in a few times to get one or use group finder, but that is usually empty for myself.
The world boss train is still run too.
People grinding using the boss train, frostgorge champ train, EotM train and Silverwaist train. This mainly to be able to buy the (not required) items they want. But people who complain about the game being grindy are out of their mind, there is no grind because there are multiple choices of grind so all the grind does not count as grind.
Yeah makes sense. [/sarcasm]
Surely you realize it’s also likely they grind doing that because there’s literally (not practically, literally) nothing else to be doing once you’ve had a turn at everything else. Or, to be blunt, anything they care to be doing.
Sort of like how people would “grind” things in GW1 because it was potentially lucrative. Or fun, but since having fun is forbidden . . .
Sure, so people grind because there is nothing else to do. But then my request would still be the same. Let me hunt down items directly instead of having only the grind option for them. Then there would be stuff to do, hunting down items.
But you can hunt down items right now. You don’t have to buy collections off the TP, you can do the events and kill the bosses that drop those items, which is exactly what you’re asking for.
Only true in a few cases. Not true for any of the items that are directly, or indirectly on the cash-shop. What is where most cosmetics are being added these days. And then there are items that do drop in the world but you can’t also directly hunt down because it has an extreme low drop-rate but drops from many different mobs. (so it will end up on the TP but directly hunting it down is not a realistic option). Not to mention that you are referring to farming what is still the least interesting way.. but would be oke in a mix of ways to hunt down items. And then there are only a few that are indeed added in a correct way to directly hunt them down, you know like Liadri.
~
“You can be as sarcastic as you like. People have always grinded in games including Guild Wars 1. Guild Wars 1 was filled with things to grind for..but you didn’t have to. That’s the trade off.”
You did not have to.. the most bad excuse ever if it comes to grind. But sure your right. If I want the flying carpet in WoW I can do a craft for it, if I want a mini in that game most of them I can earn with quest or as a drop from a dungeon or get with a craft.
In GW2 if I want to hunt down such things I have 2 options buy them (what is not playing) or grind gold. So in order to get them I have to grind!
Then you say.. but you do not need the items. Sure, in WoW in order to do the highest level raids you need to grind for gear (or at least so they told me, I did never try that). But of course that would then also not be valid because you do not have to do the highest level raids.
So if I would be to follow this logic grind is always optional, it’s only not optional IF you want something. In GW2 it’s not optional IF you want to collect cosmetics, in WoW it’s not optional IF you want to do highest level raids and because it’s an IF it does not could. So the term grind is a fantasy word, it does not exist (in games). At least by following this “you don’t have to, so it does not count” logic.
Now back to reality, I never said people should not be allowed to grind or games may not allow for grind. The problem here is that it’s the only option IF you want something (like cosmetics) while the game-play of hunting then down in the world has been replaced by the grind. Now you might not consider it grind because it’s optional but that does not change the fact that for other people it does matter. And maybe enough to matter for the game as a whole.
“There is ZERO percent chance that a game company can make content fast enough for people to keep playing it without something to work towards.”
While false (I still play Wolfenstein:ET and in fact prefer the original maps.. A game out of development for what.. 10 years?) but irrelevant because it’s great what you say.. I want to work towards things.. I want to work towards those cosmetics by hunting them down, not by grinding some currency for them. So the goals Anet creates would still be the same, the way to achieve the goal however would be another mechanic then grind (or buy).
“You have to have long term goals. You want to call that grinding, you’re perfectly entitled to.” No I don’t consider any long term goal grinding, I consider grinding for gold to get almost any item (long term or short term) grinding.
“But you can work on the same goals slowly without grinding too. That then becomes a choice.” Not true, they will add new items faster than you would ever earn the stuff by normal playing (depending on your playstyle) plus that because other people grind, prices will go up meaning those who don’t will always be behind (you want item x, cost 5 gold, you get 5 gold by now it cost 6 gold, you got 6 gold it cost 6,1 and then the next step you manage to get it, meanwhile 5 new items you like were added.).
“But if I were in a game where the only gear better than mine was in a specific dungeon, to get that gear I’d have to run that dungeon repeatedly, which to me IS grind. There is no other option but to run that dungeon.” But that is only IF you want that better gear, so it’s optional, That then becomes a choice. So no grind if I follow what you did say before.
“Someone who likes to hang out in Queensdale can level to 80 in Queensdale. Do you know how few MMOs that’s true of?” Not sure how that is relevant.
Oh, okay. lol I didn’t realize there are many trains left in the game. The only one that comes to mind atm is the Frostgorge Champ train.
Silverwaste, you have to logout and in a few times to get one or use group finder, but that is usually empty for myself.
The world boss train is still run too.
People grinding using the boss train, frostgorge champ train, EotM train and Silverwaist train. This mainly to be able to buy the (not required) items they want. But people who complain about the game being grindy are out of their mind, there is no grind because there are multiple choices of grind so all the grind does not count as grind.
Yeah makes sense. [/sarcasm]
Your whole argument makes no sense. Why do people “grind” those trains if they feel like that is a grind (i’m assuming grind is a negative thing)? Are you saying that everybody who runs dungeons or joins a train finds the activity really boring and is just generally upset at the grind all the time?
For that matter, people who spend hours in WvW could be accused of grinding too, yet they would probably say they had fun fighting for their realm.
Or pvpers who play two dozen matches in a row, are they grinding too? They are doing the same thing over and over again.Maybe if you play a game just to get some shiny, you shouldn’t be playing games at all or just buy gems, convert to gold and buy stuff.
“Why do people “grind” those trains if they feel like that is a grind” That’s what a grind is, right. People repeating content not for the content but to earn something they want. So in GW2 it’s mainly grinding for gold to buy the items they want. Sure some might like the trains themselves and for them it’s not grinding but probably most simple ‘can put up with them’ but do it not for the train but for the gold.
Then again, everybody knows this so not sure why you ask and why I explain this.
“Are you saying that everybody who runs dungeons or joins a train finds the activity really boring” No not everybody, a large portion however just ‘puts up with it’ to get the stuff they want / need. Not because of the fun of the train.
You are trying to suggest that all these grind are just there because people like that activity and not because people are mainly doing them to earn gold and if you really believe that you are fooling yourself. Again, some people are many aren’t.
The problem is also not those who like it, the problem is that if you want to items, most of them are simply only obtainable by gold and so grinding for them. I don’t mind people grinding, I mind that there is no other option for obtaining most things.
“Maybe if you play a game just to get some shiny, you shouldn’t be playing games at all or just buy gems, convert to gold and buy stuff.”
Why? This game is all about cosmetics and I have always had loads of fun hunting down those items. Being is hunter pets, special weapon-skins, mini’s, mounts. I always had a lot of fun hunting those down in MMO’s. And in fact it’s something a lot of people do and have fun doing. So why shouldn’t I? Buying them, that is what makes no sense as that is not playing a game.
But of course, that fun part of hunting down items is what is so boring in GW2 because the only way to get 90% of them is grinding gold for them.
Oh, okay. lol I didn’t realize there are many trains left in the game. The only one that comes to mind atm is the Frostgorge Champ train.
Silverwaste, you have to logout and in a few times to get one or use group finder, but that is usually empty for myself.
The world boss train is still run too.
People grinding using the boss train, frostgorge champ train, EotM train and Silverwaist train. This mainly to be able to buy the (not required) items they want. But people who complain about the game being grindy are out of their mind, there is no grind because there are multiple choices of grind so all the grind does not count as grind.
Yeah makes sense. [/sarcasm]
Surely you realize it’s also likely they grind doing that because there’s literally (not practically, literally) nothing else to be doing once you’ve had a turn at everything else. Or, to be blunt, anything they care to be doing.
Sort of like how people would “grind” things in GW1 because it was potentially lucrative. Or fun, but since having fun is forbidden . . .
Sure, so people grind because there is nothing else to do. But then my request would still be the same. Let me hunt down items directly instead of having only the grind option for them. Then there would be stuff to do, hunting down items.
Nope, I’m saying I’m an editor by profession and I know how to read English and I can look at things with years of preconceptions because I was trained to. If you look at the words of the manifesto, they bear out what I’m saying and they don’t bear out what you’re saying.
Well..
I still maintain my interpretation of the manifesto is right. I’d love Colin to come on here and answer my question about who wrote it.
Are you married?
I can see the scene, a few years after the marriage:
Vayne: “You know dear, I don’t think we’re married”
Partner: “What?!”
Vayne: “Our marriage was years ago, you can’t expect me to remember what I said that day”.
Partner: “We recorded it! You can watch right here!”
Vayne: “Still, I was just saying an intention, not necessarily what I was going to do.”
Partner: “You swore it!”
Vayne: “Maybe. But when I said ‘I do’, did I write that myself? Or did I read what someone else had written? You cannot hold me accountable for something I said that someone else had written. So, we’re not married. Bye.”
Nice hyperbole.
This is not a hyperbole.
Oh, okay. lol I didn’t realize there are many trains left in the game. The only one that comes to mind atm is the Frostgorge Champ train.
Silverwaste, you have to logout and in a few times to get one or use group finder, but that is usually empty for myself.
The world boss train is still run too.
People grinding using the boss train, frostgorge champ train, EotM train and Silverwaist train. This mainly to be able to buy the (not required) items they want. But people who complain about the game being grindy are out of their mind, there is no grind because there are multiple choices of grind so all the grind does not count as grind.
Yeah makes sense. [/sarcasm]
For everything that you do not want in the gemstore someone else wants to exclude something else. If Anet is going to make everyone who wants something out of the gemstore happy they would have to remove everything.
How would YOU personally make up for the loss of revenue if this item was withheld from the gemstore ? Lets say a thousand people would have paid ten dollars each for the set. How would YOU make up the loss of ten thousand dollars ? Not Anet, YOU?
I would have sold an expansion every year and put fun content in it that rewarded these things. People would then hopefully buy the expansions every year because they know there is all this fun content in them. Eventually I might have even earned more by selling the game and expansion on yearly base.
I don’t believe that Anet could make an expansion a year. This isn’t Guild Wars 1. Things aren’t pathed. Dynamic events are not quests.
You realize you need roughly three times as many dynamic events as you do quests to population a zone, right?
The fastest expansion for GW1 was half a year and I do think they will be able to push it out once a year if that is where their focus is.
That is because dynamic events end and another begin (so yeah so always have events going on you need more) but one quest should not have to be much more complicated to create then a quest when you have a good basis build for making events. And quest aren’t the hardest part of making an expansion, it’s just a bulk of work. With many smaller / filler quest you should be able to create multiple (3 or so) quest (or dynamic events) in a day pp. The better quest (good quest-chains) maybe 1 quest chain in 2 days. Now I would be fine, no I would love, to see traditional quest as well, mixed in with the dynamic events. Traditional quest simply add things that the events miss (and the other way around) but an event is not able to completely replace a traditional quest.
Currently there are about 1500 events. You said 1 quest = 3 events. So you would need 500 quest if you were to replace all events by quest. But let’s say we wanted to do it 50/50. So then 250 + 750 = 1000 quest / events. Let’s go for a nice mix of good quest / evens and filler quest. We put a team of 17 people on it for 2 month (you can also use less people and spread it out, but just for the sake of argument). For the better quest-chains / events we calculate 40 working days / 2 (2 day per quest) = 20 quest x 10 people = 200 quest / events. Then 5 people for the smaller quest. So 40 working days x 3 quest x 5 people = 600. So that is 800 quest / events for the expansion. The 2 people left are supporting the other people by creating items and other things requested by the quest-builders.
So if it comes to quest that should easily fit into a expansion per year schedule.
Listen to what you’re saying. That they changed direction “in the blink of an eye”. How do you know this? You don’t think there was serious debate and conversation, even resistence to these changes? You think Anet thinks with one mind and they all said, yeah, let’s kitten off our prime fan base. What is the liklihood of that?
How much more likely is that they made this game that cost millions and millions of dollars, they saw an alarming trend of people leaving, asked some questions, made some tough decisions and in spite of everything felt they had to make a choice.
I’d lay money that my interpretation is probably closer than yours.
I think that the, “blink of an eye,” bit might be relative. The game took several years to develop but that change was decided upon within a very few months of launch. Not a literal blink of an eye, but very quick.
Sure it was decided when the game looked like it was flagging so soon after launch. I was on the forums back then and every post was a post about nothing to do. They needed to change something that they could implement quickly that would take a long time…at least I’m thinking that’s how the conversation went.
Sure we could make a new dungeon…but it would take a few months and after people beat it you’d be back to square one.
Ascended stuff fit the bill, at the time. And I don’t like it any more than anyone else. I’ve never liked ascended gear and I’ve never been a proponent of it. But I can certainly see why the company would have gone there.
I was on the forums back then too. There were a number of posts about nothing to do. A vocal minority of posts/posters. As we have been told many times (by posters active in this thread) the forums represent a minority of players who are not representative of the player base as a whole.
All I am saying is that a 180 degree change a couple of months after launch of a game that had been in development for several years might not be a literal blink of an eye, but the phrase does describe the situation fairly well.
“There were a number of posts about nothing to do.” That is not the same as asking for grind!
And while I did see many complains about the game being boring (what if people could have hunt down cosmetics in stead of grinding for them? Who knows maybe less people would have considered the game boring? Maybe many of those people left and will come and have a look again with HoT) there was no outcry for grind or a gear treadmill or anything of that kind.
“As we have been told many times (by posters active in this thread) the forums represent a minority of players who are not representative of the player base as a whole.” While they are probably not a perfect representation of the whole player base it for sure gives an idea of how a lager portion of the players (and old players) do feel.
(edited by Devata.6589)
“Those who don’t like to grind for the items” You mean people farming directly for items?. but that is one of the things that is pretty much impossible in this game.
There are grinds where you know there are ‘good’ drops and so you can make a lot of gold with it, but directly farming for an item you want is nearly or completely impossible in this game (for example there is not any direct in-game way to get any of the cash-shop items other then getting gold). That is the whole point, going directly for an item is nearly impossible, that is what turns everything into a gold (currency) grind.
Not true at all. Using ascended as an example. I can effectively farm for every single material needed to craft ascended, without ever having to spend a copper in the TP.
I’ve done it with my first and second sets of ascended armor, and for most of my legendary.As far as gem store items, those don’t count. Those are cosmetic, completely optional, and don’t fall into the catagory of nessecary equipment, or BiS gear.
Lol.. I couldn’t care less for ascended, I care for cosmetics so they 100% count. Not for you but for all those who are interested in cosmetics. I don’t care if it;s optional. People complain about some grind in WoW and say it’s required, however I never had to grind in the game so then thats also optional and does not count?
It counts if people experience it as grind. It does not matter if something is optional, the whole game is optional, any game is optional so by that reasoning the term grind does not even exist.
To those arguing that setting gold as the goal is grindy. Look at it this way. By opening things up to be bought by gold they are giving you the freedom to do any activity you like. You can earn gold in PvP, WvW, dungeons, fractals, events, or just killing mobs. You can do whatever activity you fancy and gradually earn enough gold to get the items you want. You’re not locked into one activity that you have to repeat many times to get things. There are still things like that in the game, and I hope they improve upon those, but they are starting to shift in the right direction.
If you set yourself the goal of gaining gold only by doing the same thing over and over again (Anet’s definition of grind), then you only have yourself to blame. Anet has broadened your options by putting more items on the TP.
It might not be as aethetically exciting as defeating a world boss or finishing an epic dungeon, but it does allow you to pick and chose what you want to do.
When the game was first released I think Anet made a mistake with the separate dungeon tokens, as it meant players had to grind a particular dungeon to get a particular armour set. This went against their own philosophy of grind. Now, they have aded pvp ranks so you can earn it another way. It is still not perfect, and I think a more generic dungeon token gained from all dungeons to buy any dungeon set, would have been a better way to implement it, but they are at least starting to recognize the problem and provide more methods of acquisition.
The comment ‘grinding gold’ makes no sense to me, because you can acquire it in many many different ways. If you could only get gold by doing dungeons, I would understand the comment, but that is simply not the case.
“You can earn gold in PvP, WvW, dungeons, fractals, events, or just killing mobs.” One of the things I like in MMORPG is hunting down items.
(Btw the only other things I like in GW2 that does make me some money are the guild-missions. I do like WvW but mainly the defending part and that only cost money, I also like JP’s but they don’t make me any money) Not that I would want to earn the money that way and buy the items because as I said, I like to hunt down the items. That is my preferred game-play.
~
“So what” Because it’s bad for the game, it makes the game less fun and yes people are did leave because of it. Also income has been going down ever since launch so it need to go up for the game to also financially stay successful.
With HoT many people will return, including those who left because the game was boring (bercause of the grind). If they leave again they won’t come back again resulting in less money, and less support and so also a game that is going even more down quality wise.
So that is ‘what’.
/open thread.
Those who like grind will spend hours doing what they need to, which brings in more supply to the economy, which helps the game as a whole. Those who don’t like to grind for the items have the option to buy them off the TP, which helps remove gold from the game due to the TP fees, and causes the flow of gold, which also helps the game economy as a whole. As for those who don’t care, they will eventually get what they want just by playing the game.Even these types of players are good for the game, because it is this type that tends to spend more money in gems then the grinders, and the TPers, which also helps fund Anet, which helps the game.
There are a few mistakes here:
“Those who don’t like to grind for the items” You mean people farming directly for items?. but that is one of the things that is pretty much impossible in this game.
There are grinds where you know there are ‘good’ drops and so you can make a lot of gold with it, but directly farming for an item you want is nearly or completely impossible in this game (for example there is not any direct in-game way to get any of the cash-shop items other then getting gold). That is the whole point, going directly for an item is nearly impossible, that is what turns everything into a gold (currency) grind.
People just get stuff they don’t want, then sell it for gold to then buy what they want. Oow and btw, if you would implement it in a way where you could go (more) directly for an item, the option to grind would still be there for all the items that are not account-bound as they would still end up on the TP, but then the grind would be optional as you could also work directly towards the item.
“Those who don’t like to grind for the items have the option to buy them off the TP” You mean they can grind gold to buy it.. Exactly what is happening, everybody grinds to sell items they do not want to buy what they do want. (what they do not want another person wants and the other way around).
So your ‘positive’ in reality simply means grind or grind.
“which helps remove gold from the game due to the TP fees, and causes the flow of gold,” But also more need to grind gold. And if the game would be better at rewarding direct items (people want) there would also be less need to reward gold (as gold would be less important) and so less need to remove it.
“As for those who don’t care, they will eventually get what they want just by playing the game.” Not if what they want are multiple items and going up as new items are added. The more other people grind, the more prices will go up the more those who do not grind are getting behind. They will be able to get a few items yes but they will not be able to really collect or always go for some cool (new) items they see (other then grinding).
“even these types of players are good for the game, because it is this type that tends to spend more money in gems then the grinders” This is likely the whole point. Give people the choice, a boring grind or buy money (reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CbWr0zO7Ac ). What could be reasonable or at least understandable in a F2P game (that is also why they tend to be pretty bad) but not in a B2P game. If they want money to work on the game simply release more game (expansions).
Ok. I’ve been watching this thread for awhile. Now I feel it’s time to weigh in.
So the whole argument, that keeps going in circles is:
Anet said “no grind”. But ascended is grind. Thus Anet lied.
But ascended is optional and is there for a goal for people to work toward.
But ascended is BiS gear. Period. And if you want BiS you need to grind to get it.
[insert break down if ascended vs. exotic stats] But it’s not that much of a difference, thus still optional.
[instert break down of ascended vs exotic] but that much makes it almost a requirement in certain game modes, where it basically comes down to a numbers game.
But colin clarified it and said, that most of the grind in game is optional, and that acceptable.
But ascended isn’t optional if you want BiS. Thus it’s a grind, and Anet lied.
Ad Nauseum.Basically it comes down to this.
So what if ascended, skins, legendaries, BiS, fractals, etc. is a grind? So Anet changed their minds and made ascended, which does require a grind. And? Does this mean the game is kittened now? Is there such a mass exodus that Anet is looking at closing their doors? Does it mean that BiS (i.e. ascended) takes more time? So what if it does?Does it stop you from being able to complete or participate in any game mode or game game activity?
So the manifesto doesn’t match up exactly to what the game is now. But what does it matter? Do you still login and play? If yes, then I’d say what the manifesto says really has no bearing on whether or not anyone plays or enjoys the game. If no, then why are you complaining about it? You don’t play so it doesn’t effect you.Anet isn’t going to change the manifesto, the game, or ascended equipment just because people feel that it’s a grind. If you don’t like it, don’t do it. Period. If you do like it. Great! More power to you. But in the end, this discussion really doesn’t solve anything and only serves to inflame passions, and circular arguments which basically boil down to “yes it is!” “No it isn’t” “Yes it is!” “No it isn’t!”
/end thread.
“So what” Because it’s bad for the game, it makes the game less fun and yes people are did leave because of it. Also income has been going down ever since launch so it need to go up for the game to also financially stay successful.
With HoT many people will return, including those who left because the game was boring (bercause of the grind). If they leave again they won’t come back again resulting in less money, and less support and so also a game that is going even more down quality wise.
So that is ‘what’.
/open thread.
All the talk of grind here really stems from content. Let’s see how HoT turns out and revisit the grind concept. I sure they learned a few lessons since launch, at the very least.
Luminiscent armor says otherwise. It’s basically farmville.
I’m ok with skins being grindy. Although i’m currently not ok with killing Ogres to unlock the achievement (Ogre tooth drop). I’ve slaughtered at least 1000 at this point, still nada. That’s the stuff that irks me.
You are fine with grinding for cosmetics in this game that is all about cosmetics. But other people aren’t.
In both cases there seems to be agreement that it is a grind what is the subject here and the problem for those who don’t like the grind.
The grind is in making those ascended mats into armor. Low level mats are either bought at insane prices of grinding the kitten out low maps praying for bags to drop since gear drops won’t be map level but character level.
Here is how I think Anet looks at this:
You need mats? Go do what you want and earn the gold to buy them. Or make a new character (if you want to) and level them, gaining the mats as you go.
This may not be your ideal solution, but the fact is you CAN do want you want (PvP, WvW, dungeons, fractals, world bosses, dynamic events) and this WILL earn you gold with which to buy whatever mats you need (with the exception of ascended, which can be aquired from drops in many different areas of the game and doing many different activities). You are not restricted to low level zones and you do not NEED to grind those zones and pray for the bags. This is a limit you have imposed on yourself, not one Anet has imposed on you.
Ascended mat acquisition, in my opinion, needs to be improved. It is getting better though, so I am not worried about this too much.
And now how it works in reality. People set them-self a goal like getting one of those items. They look what to do to get that item.. at that moment they are not interested in WvW, PvP, dungeons whatever but at there goal. To achieve this goal there is no specific content but there is gold, so gold becomes there sub-goal so the way to get to their goal would be to grind gold.
Still fine for the first item, but then the next item has the same subgoal (gold) and the 3th, and the 4th and the 5h and the 6th and…..
And that results in many people finding the game so grindy.
Where if the item / goal is behind specific content different content is the subgoal making the whole experience way more fun.
So maybe their attempt to make the game less grindy was one of the reasons the game became so grindy, and the cash-shop items (you can only get ingame by grinding gold) is the other big reason.
(edited by Devata.6589)
Lol. What are guys grinding for?
Those who are grinding are mainly grinding gold. Many other left because the way to obtain many of the items was just by grinding (gold).
Here is how I see it: Anet intended the game to not be grindy. This did not turn out how they, or the player base, expected. They reiterated on what they meant and have been trying to improve things since. The game continues to improve in regards to it being none grindy.
While I agree that on many parts the game have been improving (while some changes where also for the worse) for the grind the opposite is true. The game has only become more grindy since launch.
With every thing added to the cash-shop (directly, or indirectly) with every new currency added and with every item put in the game that you can’t really get directly but mainly with gold the game becomes more and more grindy.. Well if purchasing those items is your thing.
Obviously then there is the option to not grind as in any game (I don’t) but then if you like cosmetics more and more of the items you would normally hunt down in the game become out of reach making the game less and less interesting / fun. While when added in the correct way (in the game attainable by specific fun content) with any of those items added the game could have become better.
“They are providing more and more ways to acquire what we want, be it via gold, karma, badges, tokens, gems or whatever.” Currency, currency, currency, currency and currency. How about rewarding for content as grinding the currency is what makes it all such a grind?
As it stands it only has become more grindy.
(edited by Devata.6589)
Still a lot of talk about who said what. The problem is that people experience grind, a lot of grind and people might find the game boring because of it. When people return for HoT you would not want to scare them away again so Anet should try to prevent this in HoT but as it stands it looks like they don’t see the problem what could be the biggest mistake to date as it might mean returning people will leave again after HoT and won’t come back this time.
That is what should be talked about here imho. Not who said what. At least if you care about the game. If you just want to proof you are right you could go on talking about who said what but it does not help the discussion and so does not help the problem. (the problem of people experiencing grind and likely also leaving because of it).
I’m glad this thread was necro’ed … it’s much more entertainment than the Silk QQ one.
If people have to type their password to login, they are going to cryhard about grind.
I don’t understand the ‘necro’ complains. Might be me but it used to be the good thing to do when you talked about a subject where there was already a thread about.
I have 3 threads that I created over a year ago and have updated with some additional information while the thread have been ‘lost’ for a long time now. However if for some reason I would want to talk about those things then I would not create a new thread but ‘necro’ that thread as it already has information in it.
You rather have I created a new topic about this subject (after seeing Joe’s interview) talking about exactly the same subject while knowing this topic existed as well.
Well I rather have people ‘necroing’ a thread then creating a new one about the same subject.
Edit: In fact their EXACT line was “We don’t want people to grind” ,which is quite different than saying people can’t find a way to grind.
They may very well not want people to grind. Do you know better?
Yep.
Which can easily be proved by seeing how not only the game rewards grind, but it also has areas which are basically huge grinds (see the Silverwastes).
The statement “We don’t want people to grind” is factually a lie – if that were true, ArenaNet would not allow people to grind, much less make grind far more rewarding than not grinding.
Grind refers to leveling therefore all these other things such as ascended gear and legendaries are not grindy because you do not need then. It doesn’t matter how many times you say it. It still doesn’t change what grind is.
Sorry buddy, but when ArenaNet is talking about what they claim to be grind in the game they made, it matters far more than what you say. And as mentioned in this topic, your definition of grind is wrong – since it’s divergent from ArenaNet’s own definition.
What matters most is that you’re considering a manifesto a promise, not a statement of intent. No matter what the statement of intent was 2 years before launch, even if it did change, it wouldn’t have been a lie while stated.
You’re so attached to maligning the company that you refuse to acknowledge even the most basic truth.
Fact. The manifesto came out 2 years before launch.
Fact. A manifesto is a statement of intent.
Fact. There is no evidence when that was said that it wasn’t the intention.Those are the facts.
It’s not only the manifesto people refer to. In fact, OP talked about the statement Colin made when introducing HoT, I just referred to a statement of Angry Joe to show how players experience grind but also to how Colin did try to dismiss that grind.
Also the no-grind-philosophy has been mentioned many times. But in the end it’s not important if anybody is lying. Anet likely did wanted to make a fun game with no grind. But the problem is that they did end up with a game that by many people is considered as grindy. Or there are grind elements Anet did not have in there ‘no-grind-philosophy’ that is also considered or experienced as grind.
Cosmetics being one of that, what is of course kind of bad if you talk about a no-grind-philosophy, make a game that has a focus on cosmetics and then make that part so grindy. Probably that’s the whole idea from the monetize department, make a game that caters towards people who like cosmetics and then put that behind a grind / in the cash-shop and then give the option to buy the items or gold to buy the items. Financially I can understand why they do it (while I would still think the ‘create a good game, and earn the money by selling it because it’s so good) but it’s not god for the game simply looking at it from a game perspective. And it’s why people feel the grind.
Then it really does not matter if somebody promised or intended to do something or that somebody did or did not lie.
People here (including you) want the best for the game so why derail to useless discussion about if somebodies lied or not. What is important is how it works and how people experience it and also if it scares people away. I mentioned before people experience grind including people who left. I now linked the interview with Angry Joe also to show it is how also other people experience it.
A lot of people on this thread have the wrong definition of grind. They think if some is not handed to them and they have to work for it than it’s grindy. Grind refers to leveling therefore all these other things such as ascended gear and legendaries are not grindy because you do not need then. It doesn’t matter how many times you say it. It still doesn’t change what grind is.
“Grind refers to leveling " Looks like your definition is the one that is different from the general sense.
It’s an ‘internet term’ so there probably is not one 100% right definition for it but there is a more general definition.
Grind simply refers to repeating a task pretty much for the sole reason of getting something, not because you like the task itself.
Personally I also think ‘currency’ is what difference grind from farming, look for example at wiki’s explanation of grind (where leveling is one example of grind!). “Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features such as level progression or additional items.” And also look at ‘farming’ in the same page “Related terms include farming (in which the repetition is undertaken in order to obtain items, relating the activity to tending a farm field)”
So you can grind for additional items but you can also farm for them, what is then the difference? That is where I see the currency. Just as with leveling you grind for XP that rewards you a level or you grind for gold to buy an item vs farm a dungeon or a mob in order to directly obtain an item.
On the other hand, what you also hear a lot is if a ‘farm’ takes too long because of extremely bad RNG or because it’s time-gated people consider it a grind. Of course when you farm something with the intent to sell the item you farm, it also becomes grinding.
Anyway, like I said before the term ‘grind’ is not written in stone but I think it’s clear it for sure does not only refer to leveling. So if anybody is having a wrong definition here it’s you.
(edited by Devata.6589)
If necessary, I’ll throw out a definition for grinding:
Engaging in activities that have little intrinsic reward (fun) for the purpose of gaining extrinsic reward (phat lootz, cosmetic or statistical).
Yeah I agree. But what also counts (for me) as well is the currency. Because most things are locked behind a currency and not behind direct content it even feels more like grinding / working.
No. Certain players misinterpreted and assumed it meant zero grind. This was then clarified on the first page of this thread.
First page of this thread? By whom? By certain players who misinterpreted the Manifesto?
As stated, some people dislike the grind in the game and then refer back to the manifesto assuming that Anet meant zero grind when they in fact didn’t. Those familiar with grind in others games would understand what it was that they were referring to. This was further clarified in a post they made on the first page. The grind they were referring to is very different than what others are referring to.
Sure they clarified that in this thread (2,5 years after release). But that does not mean people already got to the game because they did read about the no grind philosophy. And even in the interview with Angry Joe, Colin seem to try and dismiss the grind and that was not about levels or BiS, no it was about LS episodes. So when people see that it also seems like Anet is having a general anti-grind philosophy. (Not everybody sees this thread, in fact probably more people did see that interview)
Still coming from other games where there is some farming but no never ending currency grind for cosmetics, going to a game all about cosmetics that talks about a no-grind-phylosophy, is it really strange people expect no or not a lot of grind?.. Including for that important part (for this game) cosmetics?
I don’t think you can blame those people for interpreting it that way.
But still in the end it’s not relevant how they interpreted that, it’s relevant how they feel about the game and how they feel about grind in the game and how that effects their joy in the game.
Some people might not even know what it is what they dislike but find the game ‘boring’ and leave. While in fact for (some or many) of them the reason is that if they want to go for many of the cosmetics it’s not that they get specific challenges (like in many other games) but it’s grinding gold. That gets boring. (another thing this game was promoted with.. it’s all about fun)
I really think this is a bigger issue as Anet thinks and I said it before but will repeat it again. HoT will get back many players who did leave the game. But if they leave again after HoT many of them will not return for the next expansion. So they better get it right this time.
We can talk about the manifesto and what somebody meant all day long, but in the end this is what is important. And should be important for all the people that care about GW2. No matter if we agree on what somebody did say or didn’t say.
Let’s say that they reduce the grind so that there’s little to none of it. Players now have quick and easy access to all of the rewards and items in the game. How long do you think they would continue playing?
I am not talking about quick and easy. Why is it always that if you say ‘ingame’ or ‘no grind’ it means ‘quick and easy’. How about hard and challenging content?
I don’t want a vendor that gives all rewards away for free. I want to play (play, not work / grind) for them. I guess Liadri would be the perfect example of a ‘hard’ one. Some might be easy, other might have a (doable) rng, some will be hard. spread it out a little. I think they will keep playing until they have what they want but hopefully by that time a new expansion is released with new content and new rewards.
It’s because the same people that have argued against grind are the same ones that don’t want challenging and hard content.
I have seen the Liadri example being used many times on this forum(not only by me) so I think thats an incorrect assessment you made there.
No. Certain players misinterpreted and assumed it meant zero grind. This was then clarified on the first page of this thread.
First page of this thread? By whom? By certain players who misinterpreted the Manifesto?
As stated, some people dislike the grind in the game and then refer back to the manifesto assuming that Anet meant zero grind when they in fact didn’t. Those familiar with grind in others games would understand what it was that they were referring to. This was further clarified in a post they made on the first page. The grind they were referring to is very different than what others are referring to.
Sure they clarified that in this thread (2,5 years after release). But that does not mean people already got to the game because they did read about the no grind philosophy. And even in the interview with Angry Joe, Colin seem to try and dismiss the grind and that was not about levels or BiS, no it was about LS episodes. So when people see that it also seems like Anet is having a general anti-grind philosophy. (Not everybody sees this thread, in fact probably more people did see that interview)
Still coming from other games where there is some farming but no never ending currency grind for cosmetics, going to a game all about cosmetics that talks about a no-grind-phylosophy, is it really strange people expect no or not a lot of grind?.. Including for that important part (for this game) cosmetics?
I don’t think you can blame those people for interpreting it that way.
But still in the end it’s not relevant how they interpreted that, it’s relevant how they feel about the game and how they feel about grind in the game and how that effects their joy in the game.
Some people might not even know what it is what they dislike but find the game ‘boring’ and leave. While in fact for (some or many) of them the reason is that if they want to go for many of the cosmetics it’s not that they get specific challenges (like in many other games) but it’s grinding gold. That gets boring. (another thing this game was promoted with.. it’s all about fun)
I really think this is a bigger issue as Anet thinks and I said it before but will repeat it again. HoT will get back many players who did leave the game. But if they leave again after HoT many of them will not return for the next expansion. So they better get it right this time.
We can talk about the manifesto and what somebody meant all day long, but in the end this is what is important. And should be important for all the people that care about GW2. No matter if we agree on what somebody did say or didn’t say.
Let’s say that they reduce the grind so that there’s little to none of it. Players now have quick and easy access to all of the rewards and items in the game. How long do you think they would continue playing?
I am not talking about quick and easy. Why is it always that if you say ‘ingame’ or ‘no grind’ it means ‘quick and easy’. How about hard and challenging content?
I don’t want a vendor that gives all rewards away for free. I want to play (play, not work / grind) for them. I guess Liadri would be the perfect example of a ‘hard’ one. Some might be easy, other might have a (doable) rng, some will be hard. spread it out a little. I think they will keep playing until they have what they want but hopefully by that time a new expansion is released with new content and new rewards.
The only way to have a no-grind MMO is to have a fully dynamic world
The only way to have a no-grind MMO is for MMORPG players to stop accepting poorly-made content and demand quality from MMORPG developers. Until that happens, grind is all we’re going to have, because people are willing to accept it.
You cannot have zero grind in an RPG and especially MMO’s. There is absolutely zero probability that developers can create enough content to keep those that dedicate all of their free time to this game. Grind, as well as RNG, is there to prolong the life of the content.
Of course it depends how you define grind. But if all the cosmetics in the cash-shop would be in the game, behind content that is already in the game. And it would not be an extremely undoable RNG (for those that are RNG) or would be a reward for completing it. Then it would not feel like grinding to me and it would be able to keep people busy for a long time. Release an expansion once a year and then add more of those items locked behind tasks and you should be able to keep people busy.
That is how I have always kept me busy in many other mmo’s and it did never feel like a grind. The grind complains there usually came from people wanting BiS gear. (something I do not care for). So I think it is possible.
(Also I still like to play Wolfenstein:ET while I have done the maps many, many, many times over many years. Just because it’s fun. While in an RPGMMO I am more into hunting down nice items and skins and stuff (well usually, not in GW2 because here thats mainly grinding gold))
(edited by Devata.6589)
No. Certain players misinterpreted and assumed it meant zero grind. This was then clarified on the first page of this thread.
First page of this thread? By whom? By certain players who misinterpreted the Manifesto?
As stated, some people dislike the grind in the game and then refer back to the manifesto assuming that Anet meant zero grind when they in fact didn’t. Those familiar with grind in others games would understand what it was that they were referring to. This was further clarified in a post they made on the first page. The grind they were referring to is very different than what others are referring to.
Sure they clarified that in this thread (2,5 years after release). But that does not mean people already got to the game because they did read about the no grind philosophy. And even in the interview with Angry Joe, Colin seem to try and dismiss the grind and that was not about levels or BiS, no it was about LS episodes. So when people see that it also seems like Anet is having a general anti-grind philosophy. (Not everybody sees this thread, in fact probably more people did see that interview)
Still coming from other games where there is some farming but no never ending currency grind for cosmetics, going to a game all about cosmetics that talks about a no-grind-phylosophy, is it really strange people expect no or not a lot of grind?.. Including for that important part (for this game) cosmetics?
I don’t think you can blame those people for interpreting it that way.
But still in the end it’s not relevant how they interpreted that, it’s relevant how they feel about the game and how they feel about grind in the game and how that effects their joy in the game.
Some people might not even know what it is what they dislike but find the game ‘boring’ and leave. While in fact for (some or many) of them the reason is that if they want to go for many of the cosmetics it’s not that they get specific challenges (like in many other games) but it’s grinding gold. That gets boring. (another thing this game was promoted with.. it’s all about fun)
I really think this is a bigger issue as Anet thinks and I said it before but will repeat it again. HoT will get back many players who did leave the game. But if they leave again after HoT many of them will not return for the next expansion. So they better get it right this time.
We can talk about the manifesto and what somebody meant all day long, but in the end this is what is important. And should be important for all the people that care about GW2. No matter if we agree on what somebody did say or didn’t say.
I’ve never seen any comment about not “grinding” for BiS gear.
They have always held that you don’t NEED to grind to obtain gear you can play the game in. As stated above, you can complete everything in this game (except for high level fractals) in GREEN gear (that drops like snowflakes from everything).
If you WANT to pursue BiS you will likely have to do some grind (but you are not FORCED to do so to actually play the game content). Heck, with the exception of some Achievements, Ascended gear and Legendary Weapons, the game requires very little grind.
98% of those complaining about “grind” in GW2 appear to have NEVER played a game that actually REQUIRES grind to progress in the game. THAT type of activity is what the GW2 manifesto is stating will not be present in GW2. It’s quite easy to twist any comment into the perception of a lie if your desire is to make someone out to be a liar.
….and as for this thread….
….you take what you kill!
“98% of those complaining about “grind” in GW2 appear to have NEVER played a game that actually REQUIRES grind to progress in the game."
No they don’t care for the ‘required’ part. They care for what they like (like cosmetics). And then grind is grind. No matter if it’s ‘required’ or not. And of course it’s never required. It’s always a choice.
For example I did also play those games that supposedly required all the grind (like WoW) but I did never feel that grind because I cared more for cosmetics and that sometimes required some farming but there was no overall grind (like grinding gold) to get 90% of them. Mostly it’s locked behind a dungeon or a quest and so on.
I could not care less for the part you consider ‘required’ so in that light I guess it’s also not that required at all. It just depends on what you prefer.
(edited by Devata.6589)
I did just see the interview of Angry Joe with Colin Johanson and it reminded me of this thread.
Now remember, Angry Joe was one of those persons who loved the game at launch but then got bored with it and left. So it’s very interesting to see it from his perspective.
At 12:50 he refers to grind (to unlock season 2) on what Colin says “nah you can just play”. Basically the excuse most people here use as well. (other then the ‘you do not need it’).
More in the beginning he also talks about ‘zergy’ what is probably partly also the grind as much of the grinding is done in zergs.
Later (around 15:00) Colin says there is a lot of new stuff for returning players because of all the patches we have. On what Joe says “so we talking (about) new skins, new armor, new everything”. So there is more of your ‘you do not need it’ stuff. It’s the first stuff he talks about and yes thats all there…. but most of it behind a (gold) grind.
If returning players see all that stuff behind a wall of grind they get bored with the game very fast. That’s just the reality.
Maybe people who try to defend the grind or act as if it’s not there should try to understand this is how people (including many of those who left) do experience the game. That you do not ‘need’ a skin is irrelevant.
Anyway, it perfectly shows how you should see it from the perspective of players who did love the game and left.
Here is the interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG5oUKqbIVMIt’s these types of players who will be coming back and you want to hold this time.
Then the ‘you do not need it’ and ‘you can just play’ excuse is all nice and well in a discussion but it does not help the reality of how people experience the game.
You should check out what Anet’s stance really is about in regards to grind and what they were actually referring to in the manifesto which people have widely misinterpreted.
Optional or “you can just play” are valid statements/arguments. You can experience just about all of the content in this game in greens with the exception of high level fractals. Even then, the content of a level 10 fractal is not significantly different than a level 50. I don’t consider inflated HP/damage by mobs and instabilities as content. Everyone has a choice when they decide to grind.
The only problem is that that is irrelevant. It’s how people experience what is relevant. And many people experience grind. What was also something that was so clear from the way Angry Joe talked about it. Sure Colin can say “you can play for it” but as soon as Joe would have to earn gold with as target, unlocking the episodes it becomes grinding. Thats how people feel it.
So it’s irrelevant because you disagree with it? K.
No, it’s a forum where people talk about what they dislike. Then it’s irrelevant what Anet ever meant with there no grind philosophy if people dislike the grind. Because the problem is people disliking the grind. The question is not if that grind finds into the no grind philosophy.
Are you going into any forum thread where people complain or ask for something telling them it’s irrelevant what they like or dislike because Anet never promised that?
I did just see the interview of Angry Joe with Colin Johanson and it reminded me of this thread.
Now remember, Angry Joe was one of those persons who loved the game at launch but then got bored with it and left. So it’s very interesting to see it from his perspective.
At 12:50 he refers to grind (to unlock season 2) on what Colin says “nah you can just play”. Basically the excuse most people here use as well. (other then the ‘you do not need it’).
More in the beginning he also talks about ‘zergy’ what is probably partly also the grind as much of the grinding is done in zergs.
Later (around 15:00) Colin says there is a lot of new stuff for returning players because of all the patches we have. On what Joe says “so we talking (about) new skins, new armor, new everything”. So there is more of your ‘you do not need it’ stuff. It’s the first stuff he talks about and yes thats all there…. but most of it behind a (gold) grind.
If returning players see all that stuff behind a wall of grind they get bored with the game very fast. That’s just the reality.
Maybe people who try to defend the grind or act as if it’s not there should try to understand this is how people (including many of those who left) do experience the game. That you do not ‘need’ a skin is irrelevant.
Anyway, it perfectly shows how you should see it from the perspective of players who did love the game and left.
Here is the interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG5oUKqbIVMIt’s these types of players who will be coming back and you want to hold this time.
Then the ‘you do not need it’ and ‘you can just play’ excuse is all nice and well in a discussion but it does not help the reality of how people experience the game.
You should check out what Anet’s stance really is about in regards to grind and what they were actually referring to in the manifesto which people have widely misinterpreted.
Optional or “you can just play” are valid statements/arguments. You can experience just about all of the content in this game in greens with the exception of high level fractals. Even then, the content of a level 10 fractal is not significantly different than a level 50. I don’t consider inflated HP/damage by mobs and instabilities as content. Everyone has a choice when they decide to grind.
The only problem is that that is irrelevant. It’s how people experience what is relevant. And many people experience grind. What was also something that was so clear from the way Angry Joe talked about it. Sure Colin can say “you can play for it” but as soon as Joe would have to earn gold with as target, unlocking the episodes it becomes grinding. Thats how people feel it.
….
You must be a necromancer…
Because sometimes I do not answer on the same day?
Later (around 15:00) Colin says there is a lot of new stuff for returning players because of all the patches we have. On what Joe says “so we talking (about) new skins, new armor, new everything”. So there is more of your ‘you do not need it’ stuff. It’s the first stuff he talks about and yes thats all there…. but most of it behind a (gold) grind.
I doubt it will be behind a gold grind, actually.
ArenaNet has been cattering to grinders nowadays. But the thing is, the grinders have been grinding and thus they already have a lot of gold. If the new rewards were gold-gated, grinders would get all of them in the first day and be done with the expansion.
Hence all the currencies we have in the game. Just as they introduced a new currency with Dry Top and then another at the Silverwastes, they will likely introduce at least one, and likely many, in the expansion. So grinders have to begin grinding from zero, and thus keep grinding much longer. Which will assure ArenaNet that their target audience will be around longer as well.
What concerns me the most isn’t just the impact of multiple currencies on the game. Other than showing a lack of polish – don’t we have a wallet for currencies? Why aren’t geodes and bandit crests in the wallet, then? – and taking inventory space, they don’t matter much.
What really worries me is, if ArenaNet assumes people are willing to play through content they do not see as fun just to get a reward – in other words, that people are willing to grind -, then the developers have little reason to worry about making content fun. They know their players will play regardless, if there’s a shiny reward at the end.
So ArenaNet could just make “copy & paste” content, fill it with more of the same, give a few new skins as the prize for grinding the “content” over and over and over again, put it in a box, slap it and that’s it, expansion.
So then it’s not gold but another currency. Even if that would be true (I do think they will add new ones but I don’t think it will basically replace the gold because of the cash-shop and the gold > gems, as that is one of the main reasons for people to grind gold) then the same problem would still apply but simply for a different currency.
We were told fairly early on that there would be grind for cosmetics. Was that ever in doubt ?
I did never hear that claim tbh. A B2P game that was introduced with buzz statements like no grind and only about fun, for casuals that is based around cosmetics. There I do not expect cosmetics to be a boring grind but being built in as rewards for interesting content, being built in the core system of the game. (They did an attempt to have that with legendaries and with the scavenger hunt for the precursor in HoT that might have been oke)
I then expect many fun crafts like musician, toy-maker, inventor, mini tamer and so on. I expect the game to reward that sort of cosmetics for that sort of fun content as this would make all those buzz statements true. But then again, maybe that was a false interpretation from my end. On the other hand, having cosmetics behind a boring grind, while other mmo’s not build around cosmetics have them available in a more interesting way, is not very positive for a game that claims all these things and is built around cosmetics.
If it comes to this cosmetics part GW2 should have completely been my game but on that part it completely failed to deliver and other games are doing a much better job. Guild stuff and WvW is what is still interesting for me in GW2 (And JP’s) and keeps me playing. For HoT I am really interested in the WvW changes and Guild-halls but it would be nice if the cosmetics hunts vs the current grind would also be improved.
Also in many other mmo’s that is a big part of the end-game and if you launch a game that is built around cosmetics you will attract people who like that stuff. But then you scare them away again by having that a grind. Anet might want to try an hold these people when they come back to have a look at HoT.I heard the claim. Anet always talked about not grinding for BIS gear (which obviously is no longer true), but they did say there would be things to grind for. Having come from Guild Wars 1, I knew what those things would be.
If you’re not grinding for stats, the thing that’s left to grind for is cosmetics.
What is maybe even worse.. if the game is all based on cosmetics. And it’s worse for gamers who like cosmetics (the type you would think a game all about cosmetics would attract). Anyways, the interview was talking about LS unlocks, not cosmetics.
I would love many new mini’s but also the ones that are already in the game.
The only requirement I have to really like them is to have them being available in the game in interesting ways to earn them. Being it a doable! rng in a dungeon, or a ‘quest’ you need to complete or a guaranteed reward for a dungeon / instance, or one you create with a craft or one like Liadri.
Purely looking at the models what I would not like is humanoid NPC’s as mini’s, like Queen Jennah, Caithe Kasmeer Meade but other then that sort of things, yeah any mini’s. What is making them fun is the way you obtain them. (so not grinding gold, or buying them, but with fun mechanics)
I did just see the interview of Angry Joe with Colin Johanson and it reminded me of this thread.
Now remember, Angry Joe was one of those persons who loved the game at launch but then got bored with it and left. So it’s very interesting to see it from his perspective.
At 12:50 he refers to grind (to unlock season 2) on what Colin says “nah you can just play”. Basically the excuse most people here use as well. (other then the ‘you do not need it’).
More in the beginning he also talks about ‘zergy’ what is probably partly also the grind as much of the grinding is done in zergs.
Later (around 15:00) Colin says there is a lot of new stuff for returning players because of all the patches we have. On what Joe says “so we talking (about) new skins, new armor, new everything”. So there is more of your ‘you do not need it’ stuff. It’s the first stuff he talks about and yes thats all there…. but most of it behind a (gold) grind.
If returning players see all that stuff behind a wall of grind they get bored with the game very fast. That’s just the reality.
Maybe people who try to defend the grind or act as if it’s not there should try to understand this is how people (including many of those who left) do experience the game. That you do not ‘need’ a skin is irrelevant.
Anyway, it perfectly shows how you should see it from the perspective of players who did love the game and left.
Here is the interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG5oUKqbIVM
It’s these types of players who will be coming back and you want to hold this time.
Then the ‘you do not need it’ and ‘you can just play’ excuse is all nice and well in a discussion but it does not help the reality of how people experience the game.
DirectX 12 could help WvW a lot.
Also have a look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9UACXikdR0
It was confirmed by Colin in an interview that all Living Story segments, events, and updates will be gated behind the expansion. Nothing like the attack on Lion’s Arch, the Toxic Alliance, or the Silverwastes/Drytop will be coming out for vanilla players to interact with.
If you enjoy PvE but can’t get the expansion for a while you may as well quit or start playing WvW or PvP since neither of those are apparently being gated.
How do you guys feel about this? Is it justified that from this point on everything will be happening in Maguuma? It’s pretty much guaranteed to isolate the community between HoT and not so how will that affect PvE in general? If there’s a new hub in the jungles it’s likely that a majority of players will simply leave ‘Pact Tyria’ in the dust like ANet is doing.
I hope you enjoy doing the exact same content you’ve been doing already, because without HoT you get nothing from this point onwards.
Discuss.
EDIT
A lot of you seem to assume I am saying Maguuma should be free, I am not, I am in no way saying vanilla players should be able to go to Maguuma without the expansion. I am not saying any Living Story that happens in Maguuma should be open to vanilla players.
The ‘issue’ here is that Maguuma will be the sole focus and hub of all Living World/Living Story updates from expansion onwards.
These are the exact words of the question and answer:
Q: If there’s players that are playing and don’t buy the expansion will they still be able to do things in the Living World?
A: They will not, no, if you… basically everything that comes after the expansion you will need to own the expansion to be able to access, basically. Pretty much all updates from that point will be expansion specific and the core world will be what it is today.
See that last part?
“the core world will be what it is today.”
That means that Pact Tyria/Vanilla Tyria will not be changing once the expansion hits, all updates to the world and the story will be happening in Maguuma. If they are switching to an expansion focused model this will mean that each successive zone will take the Living World and Story while leaving the previous zones ‘time locked’.
No rebuilding of Lion’s Arch that players can interact with, no story based events, no changes to existing events for a story reason such as Tequatl rising, no dungeons.
The only updates existing vanilla PvE will get are class changes/tweaks and Fractals/Seasonal changes if those are 100% literal words.
Remember the destruction of Lion’s Arch? Flame and Frost? The Toxic Alliance? Any and all of LS season 1/2? Nothing like those will be happening in Pact Tyria once the expansion hits, at least if Collin meant what he said.
That is the ‘death’ of the Living World of Tyria as we know it currently.
As well the notion that new expansions and dragons need changes to happen to Tyria? Not really, say Jormag is next, they’ll open up maps further north where the expansion happens, no need to change Pact Tyria for that. Don’t even need to leave Maguuma to have that direction be introduced, just need Trahearne to say Jormag is rising and to hop on a airship for the north.
That’s it, that’s all they’d need to do to leave Pact Tyria just the way it is, further nothing in Maguuma can have a drastic effect on the vanilla map without gating that map from non-expansion players.
The Living World that made GW2 unique is no longer happening, it is the “Living Expansion”.
That everything in the new maps is not available for people who don’t have the expansions is completely acceptable. While it would not be smart (and I also don’t expect that to happen) to completely forget the already existing maps. I do think we will see LA being build up slowly and if the story requires it some things happening in maps we already have.
If it’s a LS event you might not be able to do that, but all the changes in the map (and new events there) should be available for you.
They might be legendary to YOU, but not to everyone. What if one person considers profane armor legendary, and another zodiac, and another flamekissed? So all of these would somehow have to be taken out of the gem store, which would lose money, and more people would have to be hired to create new content for them, which would cost even more money.
Doesnt seem likely to happen unless they put in a monthly sub or something to pay for it all, which is even less likely.
Welcome to f2p gaming.
“Doesnt seem likely to happen unless they put in a monthly sub or something to pay for it all, which is even less likely.
Welcome to f2p gaming."
Then again, this game was supposed to be B2P (not F2P, while indeed the way it works now is more F2P.. something I got a lot of hate for when I first said it was becoming more F2P than B2P. Now naming this game F2P has become mostly accepted).
But in a B2P game the ‘’something to pay for it all" would be to logical way to pay for it, and ’something’ would be the game and expansions. Meaning you would also have more regular expansions obviously.
You do anything in the game except chatting, you get stuff, including just logging in. That stuff can be sold on the TP or to vendors, for which you get coin, i.e. gold. That coin can be spent on the stuff you really want.
That’s what ANet staff are saying: you don’t have to grind for specific items typically.
Obviously, playing more often or more efficiently also matters, but they aren’t saying that every thing you do is going to get you lots of gold.
That sounds boring. And I would like to hunt for specific items. Sadly that’s not an option for about 90% of the items, so then grinding gold is the only option left.
Just playing is never going to be enough if you like to get many of those items, also because those who do grind make the prices go up to high for those who don’t.
Oow and just for the record. “That’s what ANet staff are saying: you don’t have to grind for specific items typically.” that is not true. They simply talked about their ‘no-grind-philosophy’ and in a recent thread Colin explained what they did mean with that. Basically there are multiple ways to get an item and / or the items was not ‘required’. Whatever that might be.
For everything that you do not want in the gemstore someone else wants to exclude something else. If Anet is going to make everyone who wants something out of the gemstore happy they would have to remove everything.
How would YOU personally make up for the loss of revenue if this item was withheld from the gemstore ? Lets say a thousand people would have paid ten dollars each for the set. How would YOU make up the loss of ten thousand dollars ? Not Anet, YOU?
I would have sold an expansion every year and put fun content in it that rewarded these things. People would then hopefully buy the expansions every year because they know there is all this fun content in them. Eventually I might have even earned more by selling the game and expansion on yearly base.
I personal couldn’t give a kitten about lore or about the gods, i care about my character. This is a cool outfit and i’m willing to buy it because it looks cool and you can swap to them AT ANYTIME.
Say you are to receive these skins/outfits after completeting the equivalent to all arah paths in 2 hours without any of your party getting downed, then these skins would be truly legendary.
I doubt 99% of the community could do this but if people work hard and spent insane hours at it like the elite PvE players, it could be achieved.Or do you want something a lot easier that 99% of the community can complete, given that the game content simply cannot become hard because of the RNG involved in drops already implemented in every form of the game.
What i am saying is, is that the game is casual friendly in terms of difficulty and there is no way to change that except for making something exceptionally difficult.Humans will always subconsciously go the easier route that rewards the best, or in terms of time spent for the best reward. Your forms of gaining these items would have no RNG related else people would simply not do them if too hard, or it would be too easy and everyone would have the skin.
The only way i see these ‘god’ skins becoming attainable as you would like, is through a quest such as of mawdrey with a difficulty level that requires complete 100% attention and cooperation.
Oh and what about the players who dislike PvE and only enjoy PvP or WvW? Are you now going to limit them doing this difficult feat because they dislike that part of the game?
Well your examples sure look like more fun than a mindless boring grind we have now. Would make the game and the content and the game-play much more interesting for sure.
It’s btw not true that with RNG it would always become dumbed down. If you would only get an item for specific (harder) content but it would still be RNG (doable rng) then the price would be higher and so while the option to grind gold is still there, it would cost so much compared to the more direct approach (going for the item) that grinding gold is not always the way of least resistance. Maybe in skill but not in effort!
“Oh and what about the players who dislike PvE and only enjoy PvP or WvW? Are you now going to limit them doing this difficult feat because they dislike that part of the game?” Just as we now limit people who don’t like to just grind gold (in this game marketed with the no-grind-philosophy) but like to hunt down there cosmetics (in this game all based on cosmetics)? Yeah I guess that might happen. On the other hand you might also put some more WvW looking stuff available in WvW and some more PvP looking skills in PvP.
While again if RNG is an option the option to grind gold is still there without it having to dumb down the game. So in those cases it would still also be available for WvW and PvP only people.
“I personal couldn’t give a kitten about lore or about the gods, i care about my character. This is a cool outfit and i’m willing to buy” Personally I also do not care so much about lore, but I don’t have a game to be able to buy more skins for the character in the game. That is not playing a game. This might come as a surprise to you, but I do have a game to play it.
(edited by Devata.6589)