(edited by Devata.6589)
Grind is still grind
… According to every schmuck and half-wit who wants to define literally anything as grind.
Yes. Grind is grind.
Now imagine if some ppl are claiming themself as ’’Collectors’’ and they thinking that collecting gold from various activities is Grind :PP
Where in every game comes naturaly , but in GW2 is Grind :P
They choosed the life/way of the ’’Collector’’ but suddenly they hate grind :P
And in the end they want more Grind with an alternate form :PBut Grind is Grind :P
Edit : Becuase some ppl behave like little brats ….
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mini_Southsun_Kasmeer
Bikini Mini pet used to be sold in the Gem Store or chance to drop ingameIt seems the community INGAME consist of very clever ppl .
They Farmed that area for that pet and they pocket the extra gold for themselfs .
But because they pocketed the gold , and there wasnt any MAJOR gold sink (SOMTHING TO WASTE THE GOLD OR CONVERT IT TO SOMETHING ELSE !) , the gold Inflitrate the market .
And ’’No’’ …. using the extra gold to buy something from the Action House , is not ‘’Gold Sink’’ (deleting/removing Gold-Money from ingame) but a circular solution and the Gold Inflitration will still grow fast over time .
If you problems collecting gold now …. imagine in the future …..And in order to avoid sutioations like in others games where an Weapon Echant from an other player cost 300-400 gold (or in the WoW Pandaria x-pack armor skin that cost 1.000.000 gold bit (not buytout) from the Black Market) , they simply avoided the idea of items that can be farmed ingame and you can pocket the money , for now .
You have 10 days freedom :P
I expet some cool ideas till then …
When I am a collector, some other game sends me all over the world, rewarding a specific item for a specific content. Giving more meaning to the item and making the hunt for items more fun.
When you are a collector in GW2 you can’t hunt down most of the items directly. It’s all about gold (or some other currency) and maybe there are then 6 or so methods to get that gold. (dungeons, farm train (of what we have 3? types) and farming world-bosses)
So while you have some choice in how to grind the gold, it still is, want item x? grind gold, next item, grind gold, next item grind gold and so on.
Of course at the same time new items are being added all the time, and let not fool each other. In the current system it’s supposed to be a grind in the hope people will buy there way out of it by buying gems to buy gold or buy the item. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CbWr0zO7Ac&t=2m26s
So there is a very big difference from being a collector in GW2 or in such other game.
Indeed.
The ability to obtain items directly is what I would consider less grindy (when done right!) then the current system, but I can agree to disagree if you would still find it just as grindy. At least it would feel less grindy to a group of players so that is already a win, while it might not yet do the job for everybody. That is also why everybody can give his solution in this thread.
I know you’re really passionate about this idea but honestly I just cannot see it. Can you help me see your point because from when I am standing this would be much much worst.
Or scenario 3: make Vision of the Mists itself drop from content, say a 0.1% to drop from the Temple of Lyssa event. So players who want Vision of Mists will either grind to get gold to buy it, grind to get the ectos themselves to forge it, or grind the Temple of Lyssa event to directly get it.
I think that’s more like it for a “rewards through content” idea.
This would even be more in line with my suggestion. One thing however. When the average other loot is less, there is also less reason for people to grind / farm the content purely for gold. That means you can higher the drop-rate on the one or two specific items that do drop.
When you do this with content that people grind for its overall good loot (like with the world-bosses) the item would drop to much, meaning the TP would get saturated with it meaning the item would have very little value. So to reduce that problem you would have to make the RNG worse and it might come to a point again not reasonable doable to work towards it and you would have gotten the gold to buy it first. Exactly where we are now.
So this works best for content that has no general reason to be grinded because of its (general) good loot and gold.
People could still just do it for the item to sell it (so to grind for gold) but it would not be something you would do with big groups of people because that would make the value drop and when you grind it for gold that is not what you want. So in that way the gold-grinders are being spread out more and that in its turn prevents the TP from getting saturated with the item.
Indeed.
The ability to obtain items directly is what I would consider less grindy (when done right!) then the current system, but I can agree to disagree if you would still find it just as grindy. At least it would feel less grindy to a group of players so that is already a win, while it might not yet do the job for everybody. That is also why everybody can give his solution in this thread.
I know you’re really passionate about this idea but honestly I just cannot see it. Can you help me see your point because from when I am standing this would be much much worst.
Lets take say vision of the mists staff. lets focus specifically on the 250 ecto. I picked this item because 100 mystic coins requirement makes it quite obvious by design this item is designed to take 100 days to earn. Ecto cost 33s so currently thats 82g which means
and average of 82s per day. Quite reasonable.Now Scenario 1.
lets assume we make ectos untradable and obtainable only via random drop of a dungeon. Now I dont know how many dungeons people run on average per day… Lets say the average is 3 for the sake of argument that means we make a drop rate of 33% so that on average people get 1 drop per day and they can earn 250 ectos in the 100 days as intended. That means 300 dungeon runs. As someone who doesnt really like dungeon running thats for me would be infinitely more grindy than earning 82s doing whatever i feel like per day.Now Scenario 2.
Lets keep ecto tradable and make them drop via dungeons so that people who want to farm them directly can do that or people who want to do something else are free to do something else.First thing you’d need to do now is make rares no longer salvagable into ectos why because that still be the biggest source of ectos which would mean that in order to keep the 100 day target the drop rate from dungeons would be so low that it might as well not exist at all. So the only source of ectos is now dungeons. A single dungeon run nets you an average of 3g which means that if things balance out we now have an ecto drop rate of 15% and ectos sell for 3g each. That means for anyone who uses all dungeon rewards to buy ectos and keeps all ecto drops they’ll still need to do 300 dungeon runs on average. people who want to go directly for ectos through drops now need to do 600 dungeon runs and people who just want to avoid dungeons now need to play more then 3x as much as before to keep with the 100 day target. Either way you look at it scenario 2 is worst then scenario 1 in terms of grind.
I am not criticizing your idea, I know you’re passionate about it but every way I look at it I can only seeing making grind much much worst, so please tell me what am I missing ? is there a 3rd scenario I am missing or do you think any of my logic is flawed? what gives?
It’s just my idea and it’s not something I am really passionate about.
Anyway, there are a few ‘problems’ with your scenario. First of all there is the 100 day limit you want to keep in order. I understand why you do that but by doing you limit the possibility too reduce the grind to less than 100 runs.
That is simply a limitation you put on there. Then there are the eco’s. I usually refer to gold as that is the main currency in GW2 but it really is about currency and in a way eco’s are the currency here.
Personally for crafting all the mats (where you need many of) I would not make the mats hard to get. It should be something you should be able to get pretty easy, so go to one spot, farm it for half an hour and be done with it. The hard thing to get would be one ingredient you only need 1 of, or the recipe itself. Depending on what you want to achieve.
Anyway, for your example I will keep myself to the 100 day limit (what is already a compromise to what I suggested, but to make it work in your scope) but I will drop the eco’s.. I mean, the whole idea of what I say is working directly towards your item, not with some currency between it.
What you then could do is making a drop-change of 0,5% (This is not exact math, not going to do the exact math now but it’s good enough for the example) for the weapon itself, that means on average it will drop once every 100 runs. Then to hold on to the 100 day time-gate you let the dungeon only give the reward once a day.
So now the average number of runs would be 100 instead of 300 or 600 in your example, while keeping onto the 100 day time-gate.. on average that is.
The best way to avoid anything feeling like a grind, is to change what you do often, and don’t constantly look at the end reward as the only reward.
The problem is that people usually do it anyway because it’s the road of least resistance. That one thing makes them the best money.
What I suggest (putting items behind content) in its nature let people do different types of content all with no or a smaller rng (grind).
So it’s possible to design the game in a way it would at least steer the people in a different direction.
Fortunately in this game you don’t HAVE to grind (it’s not required), but there are numerous items (optional) that can’t be acquired without repeating content over and over. For this reason, the game appears like a grind for some people, but not for others, based on which of those optional things they go for.
So, here comes the question: “How to eliminate grind?” The reason this discussion even exists is because of RNG loot. Because there is a chance to get things that is far lower than 100%, players have to repeat content repeatedly to get what they want.
Is that the only problem that causes repetition?
Here’s my point: best items in the game must be a reward for player’s skills. Crafting or buying legendary has nothing to do with skill. Receiving ascended rings you want and fractal skins you want in fractals is all about just grinding them – drop is too random. You can’t just beat lvl 50 fractals and be sure that in the end there will be guarantied fractal skin drop, not exact skin, but at least something.
Mini Liadri (and the title) comes to mind as a reward for player skill. The mini is account bound, and everyone that has it shows how skilled they are. The mini has a 100% chance of dropping once you beat Liadri. Can all items be like Liadri and “drop” with 100% chance?
The answer is no, because Liadri isn’t supposed to be repeatable, it’s an extremely hard encounter that tests player skills and doesn’t offer much reward otherwise. There is no reason to repeat Liadri once you get the mini (unless you just want to test yourself again). If the entire game was like this, even with easier content, then there would be no replayability at all. Do A until you finish it, get the unique skin/title/whatever if offers, forget A even exist. You can’t do an MMORPG this way at all.
Extremely hard content (like Liadri) can use this method of acquisition, but not everyday “easy” content. Once players are done with it, they need an extra reward from it. Something else to keep them going there, just a unique skin isn’t enough to entice players forever.
True, that is why I would still allow for some RNG. Being it Liadri, Liadri would drop 100% change but there might also be other drops with 5% change. As you lock it behind content at least the RNG can be lower (so less grind) but some people here then complain my solution would still allow for grind (the RNG). What you say is exactly why I do allow for that.
I would not have a solution to get rid of that completely but I would love to hear it. At least it would reduce it or would turn the big grind in multiple smaller farms.
Exactly. The idea just recasts the grind into some other form that is more pleasing to some players, but it still exists. Somehow, they have convinced themselves it’s a better option. Adding more avenues to allow grind is not a way to fix grinding. That’s been my biggest issue with his suggestion all through 40+ pages of these threads. Doesn’t seem to want to acknowledge that.
~
“And that’s why all his suggestions are just laughable and pointless.” You seem to think there would be one solution to solve it all and I claim to have that solution. Not sure where you get that from but I do not think that and I never say that. When talking about this subject I always talk about how the effect of the grind depends on your preferred game-play.
So if you think there is one solution to solve it all you are wrong and you are right that my solution is also not that solution. But instead of being so mad that my solution does not work for you, you could also add your on solution. That would be way more helpful.
My idea’s maybe don’t work ‘are bad’ for you. They do work for another big group. Maybe your solution would help your group.. then again, where is your solution?
“Anet gave their definition and that was that, but people here cannot accept it because it isn’t their definition.” Also Anet did not give their definition, they said what type of grind they tried to prevent with the ‘no-grind-philosophy’. In fact they even acknowledge the grind I talk about was there (and by doing so acknowledge also according to them it falls in the definition of grind).
The thing we discuss here is that also that grind is a problem, whether they try to solve that part with the ‘no-grind-philosophy’ or not because grind is still grind.
Anyway, by coming up with this again you keep running in circles. So if you really want to help the thread you would come with your idea or solution instead of keep running in circles.
Only telling somebody’s else solution does not work for you and starting again to talk about Anets definition and people definition does not help.
How does is reduce player’s ability to choose content if all it does is ADD one new option? Working towards is directly. Again, as long as they are not account-bound you can still grind gold for it if that is what you like.
It would only be true for the items that are account-bound. But thats already the case with some items.
But the player IS working towards the item. By playing whatever they want, they are earning gold, the currency towards the item. Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented that would only come from one other specific source? How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind? It DOESN’T. You are just shifting the grind to something else. And if you believe anet would make the token method faster, they are going to try and make it equal to other methods. In other words, the same amount of time. So that makes adding a new currency pointless once again.
You aren’t talking about reducing grind, all you have been doing is trying to actual make the grind either more annoying, or restricted.
It’s completely different when you do content for an item (so the item belongs to the content) or if you do ‘whatever’ to earn gold and then buy it, and then again, and again. Not to mention that this approach also means you are basically punishing yourself by not doing the content that rewards the most gold and it reduces the value of any item (that you can’t directly work for) to whatever is the easiest way to earn gold.
“Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented” Uhhm it does not.. No new currency, way to many currencies already in this game. Currency’s are more part of the problem then the solution.
“How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind?” Where did you see my suggesting to put in a new currency. It would not be a currency coming from one place but the item you want. " It DOESN’T." That is why I did NOT suggest it.
Well your complete comment it based on something I did not suggest so there is not much more to say about it.
Also once again (how many times have I already repeated that in the last few comments? Just with other words) For any item that is not account-bound it is not more restricted, in fact it adds a new option, not take any away.
What people are really punishing themselves for is impatience.
To me you punish yourself by playing a game to get something you absolutely don’t need but want to have. What’s the difference if you get that thing now or in a month, or in two months?
If you’re going to ruin your game experience by farming efficiently the fault is yours. It’s okay to have long term goals. There’s nothing wrong with that.
Because you dont get to use the thing while your are seeking it.
Waiting too much kills joy. Patience is nice, but like everything, its best in moderation.
This I agree with. Precursors in this game were done badly and I’m glad that’s finally being fixed, but I’ve managed to get pretty much everything I want in this game without grinding.
I do what I want, when I want, tick away at a bunch of things each time I do them, and eventually they get done. Even something like world complete which many think is a grind. I just do a few things here and there, every time I’m in a zone. I’ts not a grind to light a torch or kill one guy as I’m running to something. It’s just something I do while running.
Eventually I get into a map and there are 3 points of interest and a vista or something and I say, hey I can finish that…and I do.
I have world complete on 4 characters.
The only time I’ve completed a zone to complete it is when the guild is doing it and I’m hanging out.
I decided not to actively work towards world-completion (from day one), sometimes when leveling I did go for completing one map, to not have seen everything when leveling with alts. The result of that is that till this day I still not have map-completion. So it’s a nice story but it does not work that way in reality for everybody.
And when really going for map-completion / world-completion I do think it’s a grind because it becomes a list of PoI, hearths, waypoint and vista’s to cross of. But I guess that is to off-topic. All I want to say or show that what works for you in one way does not also work for everybody else in the same way. That is the same for many thing we talk about in this thread.
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?
Yes, that’s pretty much it … the traditional MMO approach to getting loot. WE’ve already went over this in that LAST thread. The proposals I’ve seen so far simply reduce player’s ability to choose content; they don’t reduce grind at all.
How does is reduce player’s ability to choose content if all it does is ADD one new option? Working towards is directly. Again, as long as they are not account-bound you can still grind gold for it if that is what you like.
It would only be true for the items that are account-bound. But thats already the case with some items.
But the player IS working towards the item. By playing whatever they want, they are earning gold, the currency towards the item. Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented that would only come from one other specific source? How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind? It DOESN’T. You are just shifting the grind to something else. And if you believe anet would make the token method faster, they are going to try and make it equal to other methods. In other words, the same amount of time. So that makes adding a new currency pointless once again.
You aren’t talking about reducing grind, all you have been doing is trying to actual make the grind either more annoying, or restricted.
Exactly. The idea just recasts the grind into some other form that is more pleasing to some players, but it still exists. Somehow, they have convinced themselves it’s a better option. Adding more avenues to allow grind is not a way to fix grinding. That’s been my biggest issue with his suggestion all through 40+ pages of these threads. Doesn’t seem to want to acknowledge that.
Well that’s because grind is also partly personal, we did agree on that somewhere on page 5 of the first thread. In fact, I have always talked about ‘depending on your preferred gameplay’. For a group this will be way less grindy. In fact I don’t see any grind in getting an item for a quest or for completing a dungeon. While I can understand people still see grind when the item is in a dungeon with RNG. Still the RNG could be lower so less grind imho.
Anyway, what you are talking about is only my suggestion and does indeed help to decrease the grind for a group of players , maybe not for all but like I said before in this thread, feel free to come with your own suggestion. Maybe the combined suggestions would solve it for an ever bigger group.
I never said my solution would be the end an all for all grind for everybody. It’s a solution for people with a preferred game-play. A group I think is big when you have a game that is so much based on cosmetics, while I also think many of that group will have left by now but will come back with HoT. So there is a lot to gain here imho.
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?
Yes, that’s pretty much it … the traditional MMO approach to getting loot. WE’ve already went over this in that LAST thread. The proposals I’ve seen so far simply reduce player’s ability to choose content; they don’t reduce grind at all.
How does is reduce player’s ability to choose content if all it does is ADD one new option? Working towards is directly. Again, as long as they are not account-bound you can still grind gold for it if that is what you like.
It would only be true for the items that are account-bound. But thats already the case with some items.
But the player IS working towards the item. By playing whatever they want, they are earning gold, the currency towards the item. Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented that would only come from one other specific source? How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind? It DOESN’T. You are just shifting the grind to something else. And if you believe anet would make the token method faster, they are going to try and make it equal to other methods. In other words, the same amount of time. So that makes adding a new currency pointless once again.
You aren’t talking about reducing grind, all you have been doing is trying to actual make the grind either more annoying, or restricted.
It’s completely different when you do content for an item (so the item belongs to the content) or if you do ‘whatever’ to earn gold and then buy it, and then again, and again. Not to mention that this approach also means you are basically punishing yourself by not doing the content that rewards the most gold and it reduces the value of any item (that you can’t directly work for) to whatever is the easiest way to earn gold.
“Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented” Uhhm it does not.. No new currency, way to many currencies already in this game. Currency’s are more part of the problem then the solution.
“How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind?” Where did you see my suggesting to put in a new currency. It would not be a currency coming from one place but the item you want. " It DOESN’T." That is why I did NOT suggest it.
Well your complete comment it based on something I did not suggest so there is not much more to say about it.
Also once again (how many times have I already repeated that in the last few comments? Just with other words) For any item that is not account-bound it is not more restricted, in fact it adds a new option, not take any away.
What people are really punishing themselves for is impatience.
To me you punish yourself by playing a game to get something you absolutely don’t need but want to have. What’s the difference if you get that thing now or in a month, or in two months?
If you’re going to ruin your game experience by farming efficiently the fault is yours. It’s okay to have long term goals. There’s nothing wrong with that.
Sure it is. That however does not mean people will not do it (human nature dictates many do) and because they do it they get burned out of the game sooner and will leave. So in the end it still is a problem for the game.
I personally don’t mind if it takes time, as long as I can work directly towards it instead of having really only the same gold option for all of them.
The other things I like to do simply don’t make a lot of money and besides I simply like the hunt. So even if I did get all the money I needed by playing the game I would be happy with the items but still miss the hunt and the items (would) also have less value to me.
And like phys said, Patience is nice, but when it takes too long it will take away the joy, and that is what a game should be about. I think we can all agree on that.
(edited by Devata.6589)
- snip -
“ANet has to please all of these people”. So try and please the groups you mention here? Put all those items behind specific content, don’t make them account-bound. There you go.
Personally I think some items should be account-bound but just to solve your problem.
While the thought in your former paragraph would cater to you and those who think like you, it would do nothing for those who like farming gold to buy what they want, and who don’t want rewards tied to specific content.
As to your latter sentence, what does account-bound have to do with anything? Account bound is a way to force people to do the content where drops happen, craft junk themselves, etc. Account bound is the anti-gold method.
actually though i dont agree with devatas idea that it isnt grindy if its a direct drop, he has always said its fine to make it buyable by gold.
so people who like getting things with gold would still be able to buy things in his system. The main difference is there would be fewer drops that you cannot obtain directly
Indeed.
The ability to obtain items directly is what I would consider less grindy (when done right!) then the current system, but I can agree to disagree if you would still find it just as grindy. At least it would feel less grindy to a group of players so that is already a win, while it might not yet do the job for everybody. That is also why everybody can give his solution in this thread.
- snip -
“ANet has to please all of these people”. So try and please the groups you mention here? Put all those items behind specific content, don’t make them account-bound. There you go.
Personally I think some items should be account-bound but just to solve your problem.
While the thought in your former paragraph would cater to you and those who think like you, it would do nothing for those who like farming gold to buy what they want, and who don’t want rewards tied to specific content.
As to your latter sentence, what does account-bound have to do with anything? Account bound is a way to force people to do the content where drops happen, craft junk themselves, etc. Account bound is the anti-gold method.
My solution would indeed cater to those people but not harm those who prefer the option to grind gold.
That is where the not account bound items come in. While I would not mind account-bound item, having them not account-bound would mean they will end up on the TP so people can still get gold from other parts of the game to buy it. So that solves the problem you did think you saw, requiring people to do that specific content.
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?
Yes, that’s pretty much it … the traditional MMO approach to getting loot. WE’ve already went over this in that LAST thread. The proposals I’ve seen so far simply reduce player’s ability to choose content; they don’t reduce grind at all.
How does is reduce player’s ability to choose content if all it does is ADD one new option? Working towards is directly. Again, as long as they are not account-bound you can still grind gold for it if that is what you like.
It would only be true for the items that are account-bound. But thats already the case with some items.
But the player IS working towards the item. By playing whatever they want, they are earning gold, the currency towards the item. Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented that would only come from one other specific source? How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind? It DOESN’T. You are just shifting the grind to something else. And if you believe anet would make the token method faster, they are going to try and make it equal to other methods. In other words, the same amount of time. So that makes adding a new currency pointless once again.
You aren’t talking about reducing grind, all you have been doing is trying to actual make the grind either more annoying, or restricted.
It’s completely different when you do content for an item (so the item belongs to the content) or if you do ‘whatever’ to earn gold and then buy it, and then again, and again. Not to mention that this approach also means you are basically punishing yourself by not doing the content that rewards the most gold and it reduces the value of any item (that you can’t directly work for) to whatever is the easiest way to earn gold.
“Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented” Uhhm it does not.. No new currency, way to many currencies already in this game. Currency’s are more part of the problem then the solution.
“How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind?” Where did you see my suggesting to put in a new currency. It would not be a currency coming from one place but the item you want. " It DOESN’T." That is why I did NOT suggest it.
Well your complete comment it based on something I did not suggest so there is not much more to say about it.
Also once again (how many times have I already repeated that in the last few comments? Just with other words) For any item that is not account-bound it is not more restricted, in fact it adds a new option, not take any away.
Because adding that new method does nothing else in solving the grind problem. ITS STILL A GRIND. Adding another option, DOES NOT REMOVE THE GRIND. In fact, adding the option would just make no sense.
Make a lever that says “pull here for loot”. Make a second lever that says the exact same thing right beside it. What is the point in the second method? It does the exact same thing, but resources and time were wasted to set it up.
Just give it up already. This whole crusade of yours hasn’t been to try and solve the grind problem, but either make it worse, or more tedious, or more pointless by wasting dev time. All for the sake for you to not grind for gold, which as the main currency being given and received, lets it opened up to allow the player to do and play whatever they want to get said item. Putting an item “behind content” is stupid to say, as a player doing anything like events or dungeons IS content, and getting gold from that CONTENT is working towards getting the item.
If that second option is no grind or less grind the change it makes is that going for that item now has an option that is no grind or less of a grind.
I think that is a obvious change, and one for the better.
Still you dont understand that things change …
the cost to create GW1 vs GW2 is different and how much cost to maintain it , where everything a painted on hand and have other mechanics that the first game didnt have
Heck they have more ppl working atm , rather in the past …
Oow I do understand that. GW1 also managed to released is fastest expansion in half a year, I am talking about once a year.
Also earning more is earning more, nothing changed there.
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?
Yes, that’s pretty much it … the traditional MMO approach to getting loot. WE’ve already went over this in that LAST thread. The proposals I’ve seen so far simply reduce player’s ability to choose content; they don’t reduce grind at all.
How does is reduce player’s ability to choose content if all it does is ADD one new option? Working towards is directly. Again, as long as they are not account-bound you can still grind gold for it if that is what you like.
It would only be true for the items that are account-bound. But thats already the case with some items.
But the player IS working towards the item. By playing whatever they want, they are earning gold, the currency towards the item. Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented that would only come from one other specific source? How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind? It DOESN’T. You are just shifting the grind to something else. And if you believe anet would make the token method faster, they are going to try and make it equal to other methods. In other words, the same amount of time. So that makes adding a new currency pointless once again.
You aren’t talking about reducing grind, all you have been doing is trying to actual make the grind either more annoying, or restricted.
It’s completely different when you do content for an item (so the item belongs to the content) or if you do ‘whatever’ to earn gold and then buy it, and then again, and again. Not to mention that this approach also means you are basically punishing yourself by not doing the content that rewards the most gold and it reduces the value of any item (that you can’t directly work for) to whatever is the easiest way to earn gold.
“Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented” Uhhm it does not.. No new currency, way to many currencies already in this game. Currency’s are more part of the problem then the solution.
“How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind?” Where did you see my suggesting to put in a new currency. It would not be a currency coming from one place but the item you want. " It DOESN’T." That is why I did NOT suggest it.
Well your complete comment it based on something I did not suggest so there is not much more to say about it.
Also once again (how many times have I already repeated that in the last few comments? Just with other words) For any item that is not account-bound it is not more restricted, in fact it adds a new option, not take any away.
Of course that means that if you would want the flying carpet (that would then be locked behind some content in GW2) and you only want to do WvW, the only option would still be to grind gold. My solution does indeed not solve that problem, but if you have a solution for that feel free to post it here.
There is one problem with putting most items on the TP (other than getting them through content)
If you make everything available through specific content but not make it bound (account or soul) it completely devalues the item itself. Just take a look at any Legendary. From “prestige” items they are now a “who grinded/farmed more or used RL cash” test instead.
What type of content could reward a flying carpet???
Partly true, that is why I personally would not be in favor of not making any of them account-bound. That is more like a trait-off to allow those who would want to do other content / grind for gold to still be able to get the reward that way.
Still, when items are behind specific content that other then that item have no good reason to be grinded, the item would not lose much value. The prestige would be gone but the market would not be flooded with it.
The legendary is not a very good example as that is also something you can’t really work directly towards simply because multiple of the needed ingredients you can’t work directly towards. Like the precursor and some of the mats.
“What type of content could reward a flying carpet???” Depends.. it’s pure cosmetic, it looks nice but not really aggressive (I would put aggressive rewards more in something like WvW). So maybe a dungeon or the Goemm’s Lab JP (as thats high in the sky, and the carpet would let you fly.. ). It could then be a guaranteed reward or a more doable rng like 5%.
However at the same time my suggestion does not change anything for those who prefer the gold grind. So what’s the problem?
Again you dont simply understand and dont know the cost of the LS .
Your suggestion will hurt the majority of the population that love the 2-week LS .
You say over and over again that they must sell more 1 year x-pack if they money ….We dont how much money they have been lent to create the GW2 and how each money they must pay back every 3 months + how much their salary they must pay for those 350 ppl + how much the next expanion will cost .
Now you want to add 2-week LS cost ontop all of that ?Can you link me some schrrens of your account plz ?
(this is the 3rd time asking)Agin you want more things to do ingame
And with increasing the hunting/grinding you will get more gold without knowing it > where you can buy the gem store items ……
“Now you want to add 2-week LS cost ontop all of that ?” Where did I say that?
And about cost and income. GW1 managed to earn about 100% of it’s original sale with every expansion is released.
If GW2 would have earned 100% of it’s original sale one a year, they would have earned more money by now then they did.
While I think GW2 did do some irreversible damage with the current approach meaning HoT will likely not be able to earn the same amount of money as the original game. However I think if they would have gone for that expansion approach form the beginning (and so could have also designed the game differently) I think they could have earned that much. And it would then also still be the best option for the future imho. Still we never know any of this for sure as we do not life in the parallel universe where this would be true. All we could do is look at the numbers we do have.
“Can you link me some schrrens of your account plz ?” screens of my account? What do you mean, and what do you wanna know / see?
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?
No, for the items that are not account-bound you can still grind the gold just as people do know if that is what they like. But now there is ALSO the option to work more directly for the items, hunt them down. (play how you want),
So just like how the unique dungeon skins work? No thanks.
Making harder content more rewarding would solve all those issues without forcing players to run content they don’t want for items they want.
How are you forcing, if the option do all the content you like to grind for gold (the thing some people here are talking so much about when defending the grind) is still there. Sure working directly for it would then likely become the most optimal way, not brainlessly following some train. But you could still do the train (while I would think the number of people grinding and so the number of trains would drop).
If I don’t want to run this new content that gives the item I want, then I still have to grind. So for people who are into other activities than the ones that give what they want, your proposal DOES ABSOLUTELY nothing to reduce their grind. It only affects you and anyone that thinks like you. I’d rather they reduce the grind for everyone by changing the whole reward system instead of adding rewards in content.
“So just like how the unique dungeon skins work?” You mean the ones you buy with tokens? No first of all those are tokens. While a token system could be oke to earn something along the way, items people would really want should not be behind something like tokes (that is just another currency). Secondly, those skins are soul-bound.
No I’m talking about the unique exotic rewards in dungeons that can also be sold on the TP. Usually they are parts of the Exotic Hunter collection. Is that how you envision getting items through content?
If the rng would not be to absurd yes that would be one example of it.
And like I said, I do not solve any problem with my suggestion, I simply solve a part, add one new option to the table. If you really don’t want to do that content then getting gold would still be the only option yes. But again, feel free to give your solution for that. One suggestion does not mean it excludes other suggestion / solutions. That is what this thread is about.
Talking about the types of grind, how they effect the game and how to solve it.
(edited by Devata.6589)
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?
Yes, that’s pretty much it … the traditional MMO approach to getting loot. WE’ve already went over this in that LAST thread. The proposals I’ve seen so far simply reduce player’s ability to choose content; they don’t reduce grind at all.
How does is reduce player’s ability to choose content if all it does is ADD one new option? Working towards is directly. Again, as long as they are not account-bound you can still grind gold for it if that is what you like.
It would only be true for the items that are account-bound. But thats already the case with some items.
I want them to solve the “you can still grind gold” part first if you don’t mind, solving the terrible reward vs risk ration in the game.
I remember a game that used a similar system to what you are proposing. It didn’t have a cash shop either, and was based on expansions. It also had some insane grinding to get what you ever wanted. It’s called Guild Wars 1, you might know it. I don’t want that type of system ever again.
From what you post, I take it you don’t play PVP, or WvW, or run dungeons / fractals. You only run random open world PVE and want different types of events in open world PVE to give unique rewards, how is that going to work with other gameplay types?
Oh they can grind for the gold right? How is that solving the grind issue itself then? You want to solve the grind by adding new options for yourself to reduce it. I want options to reduce the grind for everyone, you are looking at yourself only (and anyone who thinks the same way as you)
I do like WvW and I like guild-missions, and I like JP’s and I like hunting down items.
Also this thread allows for people to give their solutions. I indeed just give mine based around the problem I see. That does not mean you are not able to give your solution, maybe they could both be used.
How to earn rewards if you play WvW. Well best example for that is my suggestion in the CDI about guild-halls. What you do is that you put items behind content that does match. Like lets say you want to get a portal to a the Eternal Battleground for in your guild-hall. What you would have to do with the guild is hold SM in that map for x time. (as an example). Because the item matches with the content it’s already more likely that the person who likes the item also likes the content while that is no grantee obviously.
This is a ‘guild-hall’ example but you can do similar things with with personal rewards.
Of course that means that if you would want the flying carpet (that would then be locked behind some content in GW2) and you only want to do WvW, the only option would still be to grind gold. My solution does indeed not solve that problem, but if you have a solution for that feel free to post it here.
“solving the terrible reward vs risk ration in the game.” I do think btw that what I suggest would solve this for a big part. While you could at the same time lower the overall general rewards (junk / gold) and try to balance general gain more around how hard content is.
However when you can directly work towards an item, grinding is not the most optimal way anymore. Doing it directly is.. well until people would start farming that, however then the prices would drop, meaning they would not earn enough with it meaning they would need move to something else… So just running with some train is then not the most optimal way of doing things anymore.
The content that is in frond of an item would for be a big part determine the value of an item and so it would help to balance the reward vs risk.
(edited by Devata.6589)
Yeah, my suggestions had indeed not much to do with the LS. I see the LS more as some story telling that I do not care much about. However I still do not see your point as to why it would not work in a LS, especially now the LS is re-playable.
Or do you mean how the expansion vs cash-shop would leave less room for the LS? Of course the LS itself has been moving away from this 2 weeks idea because people did not like what they got. It’s now one bigger break of about 4 months, then 4 episodes released once every two weeks and then another break about 4 months? So that already moved closed to the one expansion a year I talk about.
You cant gate everything around the LS achiv panel .
Because some ppl cant be online every 2 weeks to unlock the LS episode and they blame the company for P2W (like some other ppl) and moan at the forums about it .Also if in order to do the Living story Update you need 1,5-2 hours if you spent you ime casualy/smell the flower/read all the dialogs-clues .
If again they put the rewards in the LS achiv panel , if ppl make a mistake in their original run > they have to redo it from the start .
Aint that again Grind for other ppl ?That why they are rewarding 2 Achendant Rampager rings in the LS episode 5 and 8 and the Carapace Armor + Illuminasense Gear in the Silverwaste .
They have already using this ’’idea’’ that you are all trying to promote .
But again you simply wants more things /more Grind ingame ….
With the same pattern , but with increased Quality .That why i am Mad with most ppl …. you are trying to promote already used ideas to reduce YOUR grind
“You cant gate everything around the LS achiv panel.” Like I said “my suggestions had indeed not much to do with the LS ”, so I am not talking about gating everything around LS. You could do what I say in the LS but that isn’t really what I talk about.
If there are all these things all over the world I would not even need the LS to keep me busy.
Sure the idea is already used in some cases, but it only works if you do it with most items, not with a few while most are still behind the gold grind. And sure it would reduce my grind (well I don’t grind) and that of all people who like to hunt down items. However at the same time my suggestion does not change anything for those who prefer the gold grind. So what’s the problem?
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?
No, for the items that are not account-bound you can still grind the gold just as people do know if that is what they like. But now there is ALSO the option to work more directly for the items, hunt them down. (play how you want),
So just like how the unique dungeon skins work? No thanks.
Making harder content more rewarding would solve all those issues without forcing players to run content they don’t want for items they want.
How are you forcing, if the option do all the content you like to grind for gold (the thing some people here are talking so much about when defending the grind) is still there. Sure working directly for it would then likely become the most optimal way, not brainlessly following some train. But you could still do the train (while I would think the number of people grinding and so the number of trains would drop).
“So just like how the unique dungeon skins work?” You mean the ones you buy with tokens? No first of all those are tokens. While a token system could be oke to earn something along the way, items people would really want should not be behind something like tokes (that is just another currency). Secondly, those skins are soul-bound.
I guess more like “Mini Tequatl the Sunless”, but if you do that everywhere, and not behind some content that people grind (Like Twq) because it has overall good loot, then it means you can start hunting down items in the world and grinding is not the only or most optimal way anymore.
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?
Yes, that’s pretty much it … the traditional MMO approach to getting loot. WE’ve already went over this in that LAST thread. The proposals I’ve seen so far simply reduce player’s ability to choose content; they don’t reduce grind at all.
How does is reduce player’s ability to choose content if all it does is ADD one new option? Working towards is directly. Again, as long as they are not account-bound you can still grind gold for it if that is what you like.
It would only be true for the items that are account-bound. But thats already the case with some items.
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?
No, for the items that are not account-bound you can still grind the gold just as people do now if that is what they like. But now there is ALSO the option to work more directly for the items, hunt them down. (play how you want). In stead of grinding gold being the only option when you want to directly work towards an item.
(edited by Devata.6589)
@Devata
So, here’s what I am understanding.~ snip for space
So you can go ahead and run your campaign against gold, as you clearly aren’t against grind. You support grind.
“Didn’t get a specific item from an event due to RNG? ” It’s more that you really can’t do a specific events to get a specific item. (for most items). Most items are not locked behind specific content with a doable Rng but locked behind anything with extreme, extreme low RNG or are locked behind something like the cash-shop. Resulting in grinding for gold to be the only option if you want to work towards getting that item.
“So you can go ahead and run your campaign against gold, as you clearly aren’t against grind. You support grind.” It’s not a campaign against gold (or currency). It’s a request to also be able to directly work towards items instead of only having the ‘grind for gold’ option for most items. (If hunting down those items is what you like).
You say.. ’but then you also repeat content and so what you (I) suggest is still grind (what is only true for the Rng options, I also gave none-rng options) but that are smaller grinds then the one big gold grind there is now.
So it’s still less grind. Smaller chunks of grind and items locked behind content that is not a grind at all (like quest x rewards y), versus the grind for gold for most items now.
So the end result is still less grind. My examples don’t completely eliminate it no, that’s true.
Not this again…
1. Post in that thread then if you want to continue it, why make a new one?
2. Grind for cosmetic items is optional
3. No, I did not read your post
4. /threadIf you do not feel the need to read, then also do not post your unfounded (not based on what was said, as you did not read it) comment.
Didnt bother reading OP either. Too long for a complaint. Point is, they said that there is no grind in the game outside what YOU make for yourself. Dungeon armor? YOU wanted it, anet isnt forcing it. Ascended armor for top tier fractals? YOU wanted it, anet isnt forcing either the armor or fractals. Granted, by the time you get to top tier fractals, it probably took you the same time as it would to even craft your armor. Legendary stuff? YOU wanted it.
See the pattern? Anything in this game that does not require a tier-based upgrade (ie fractals) can be done in full exotics (which you should be able to craft a full level 80 set of by that level) or lower. In fact, ascended stuff, as a whole, gives such a miniscule bonus that you dont NEED it outside of it’s capacity to give agony resistance.
World completion? Optional. Max bag space? Optional. Buying outfits? Optional. Buying BL keys? Optional. Getting full exo gear for level 80? Somewhat optional and capable of completion from just playing normally.
All grind you make, is made by you personally in your own head.
“Point is, they said that there is no grind in the game outside what YOU make for yourself. ” If you would have read it.. you would know that was not the point.
discussions about ideas /perceptions are probably the most useful. Ultra specific ideas, usually wont work with whatever hidden limitations, specifications, and interactions we dont know about.
Devs however can take how people percieve something and general ideas, and work into their framework.
Everything wont work without specifics ideas althought …
Devata for exampled have proposed items to be earned with long quest + small chance from boses and other ideas
But in reallity how this will work ?
Each Living Story Update will have a different way to get the item ?
(You cant create EXTRA workload to the Dev team , by having them release the Lining Update and 3 WAY to earn the reward… not complate once the Update and guarrantee 100% rewards =/= 2-3% chance to drop will work ..)
Even the idea of Account Bound vs not , will disturb a huge amount of ppl …One week it will be with the Long Quest ? And the other week it will change ?
But what about the other 7 ppl that dont like the Long Quest and then have to w8 4 weeks , so they can get a n item with the ’’way’’ they like ?You see that i am MAD bout ’’HIM’’ …..
He gives ‘’general ideas’’ that will hurt the rest and the financial/ability to create Lining Story Updates every 2 week forthe company ……That why he must ‘’stepped down’’ and hear the majority and what they want ….
The majority will ‘’choose their poison’’’ and the minority will stepped down silently
Yeah, my suggestions had indeed not much to do with the LS. I see the LS more as some story telling that I do not care much about. However I still do not see your point as to why it would not work in a LS, especially now the LS is re-playable.
Or do you mean how the expansion vs cash-shop would leave less room for the LS? Of course the LS itself has been moving away from this 2 weeks idea because people did not like what they got. It’s now one bigger break of about 4 months, then 4 episodes released once every two weeks and then another break about 4 months? So that already moved closed to the one expansion a year I talk about.
Devata, essentially your entire post is boiling down to you don’t like how Anet made their game. You want them to change it to suit your needs, because you don’t like a specific aspect. You consider it to be ‘grind.’ Anet has defined what they meant by ‘no grind’ and that’s really the end of the discussion. You don’t have to like it, you don’t necessarily have to agree, but that’s their approach.
Of course you could say that about any complain.
Now, don’t get me wrong. I don’t think they are 100% on the money with everything, but for the most part, they do pretty well.
However the question at hand (in this thread) is not if they are or are not ‘on the money’. The question is how the current design effects the game, how people experience grind in this game and how they would prefer it instead.
Those are just academic discussions though. I don’t see them actually leading to changes that Anet would be compelled to make because each person is going to have a different opinion of what the answers to those questions are.
Those are just academic discussions though. I don’t see them actually leading to changes that Anet would be compelled to make because each person is going to have a different opinion of what the answers to those questions are. [/quote]
People will likely have different opinions about that indeed, however that does not mean there are no ways to please more people.
I think that in fact the main reason for Anet to have gone on with the current approach is not so much because they don’t have any idea how to make it better. I think it’s more because of the monetization approach that is a bigger motivation for them then willingness to solve the problem. (but maybe it’s also a little bid of denial of the problem? When I looked at Colins reaction to Angry Joe’s comment about grind)
I mean, when getting items feels like a grind and when gold is the best way to get most items, there is more reasons for people to buy gems to convert to gold. And of course any item that is put into the cash-shop also results in more grind.
That is why I always refer to my solution for that problem, the expansion focus in stead of the cash-shop focus. So being more in line B2P model.
So what is important as well is to analyses the reason why it’s here the way it is. You think it has to do because they can’t cater to everybody, I think this focus the main reason, some people think it’s because of Anets attempt to have less grind, that resulted in more grind (while I think that can be partly true, at the same time I don’t think that is what is holding them back for doing anything about it).
Devata, essentially your entire post is boiling down to you don’t like how Anet made their game. You want them to change it to suit your needs, because you don’t like a specific aspect. You consider it to be ‘grind.’ Anet has defined what they meant by ‘no grind’ and that’s really the end of the discussion. You don’t have to like it, you don’t necessarily have to agree, but that’s their approach.
Of course you could say that about any complain.
Now, don’t get me wrong. I don’t think they are 100% on the money with everything, but for the most part, they do pretty well.
However the question at hand (in this thread) is not if they are or are not ‘on the money’. The question is how the current design effects the game, how people experience grind in this game and how they would prefer it instead.
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
As far as #2 goes, since this is the OP’s presenting complaint, what could be done is for some items to be put into the game that drop from specific bosses. Well, ANet has done this. However, like every demographic, the OP and those who think like him want more rewards that are obtained as they would like. Meanwhile, other demographics like the “get gold” approach and still other demographics like the “rewards can drop anywhere” approach, specifically because they don’t want to be “forced” into specific content. ANet has to please all of these people, at least to some extent. This makes it inevitable that not every reward that gets put into the game is going to be obtained via the favored means of any one group.
“ANet has to please all of these people”. So try and please the groups you mention here? Put all those items behind specific content, don’t make them account-bound. There you go.
Personally I think some items should be account-bound but just to solve your problem.
2/2
“rewards for dungeons? Again, vague here, but I assume you mean getting tokens which means…hey everybody! Grind grind grind grind….” Tokens are currency.. so again your to much locked in the way GW2 makes it’s grind. No, it could be doable RNG but also simply a reward for completing the dungeon.
“Drop from boss chest rng? Grind grind grind grind….” But still less grind then the more general drop as in GW2. If you make something drop everywhere but you want to keep it rare you need to have extremely low drop-rates. Meaning directly hunting for the items becomes impossible. While when you put it in specific content the drop-rates can be much better reducing the grind needed for it. So it would still be less grind.
“Hard content like Liadri? Well then, lets see…when I did the achieves and the mini, one I got them, I was done with her, never again.” Then again, it’s not the type of content that is the hardest to create. So you could have many different fights like this all rewarding different rewards. Different fights means you are busy but it’s not all the same so not all a grind.
“And do you really, REALLY believe people would be content if stuff was put behind all of this?”
Well why not.. For all the items that are not account-bound the only thing that would change is that you now have the option to do that content to get it. However for those who don’t like it the current option is still there. Those items will end up on the TP and so people will be able to grind gold to buy them just as they do now. (While in that case going directly for them would likely be the most efficient way, not running with a farm train while watching some movie on the second screen, like many people ‘play’ GW2 these days).
“People complained it was too hard at the time,” The complains where mainly that people could not organize an attack because is was in the open world and it would be to hard with ‘pugs’ all around. Still how hard some content would be is yet another question that seems unrelated. People did not complain about the fact that Teq had some items they could not get, or at least I did not see those complains. That would be more relevant to this topic.
“But, that doesn’t matter does it? You’re ok with grind, just long as its not towards gold apparently.” If you would put it like that I guess you could say I can put up with some smaller reasonable farms, but am not oke with one big never ending grind. What in GW2 seems to be currency’s and mainly gold as that is the main way to get most items.
~
“ You’re against grinding for GOLD ” The problem behind that, is not so much the gold or currency but the fact that you don’t do it directly for the reward. So that drive is gone while it’s all just some currency.
“I mean, the second you put in RNG, you are introducing grind.” Maybe, but it can then be a more reasonable grind per item in stead of one big grind for all of them. That is what you get with currency / gold grind. Want item x, grind gold for it, want the the next item, grind gold for it, the next, grind gold, the next grind gold, the next grind gold.
So in the end it’s one huge never ending grind. While if you have it behind specific content it will be like. Want x, complete that dungeon, want the next, complete that quest-chain, want the next, complete that JP, want the next ill that boss. So it’s not one big grind. See the difference.
“They’re more fun at how grindy they can be!
A ‘quest’ chain? Hm, fun the first time around” A quest chain would be by definition not a grind. You do it once and then unlock the item you want. However there might be 100 different quest (of what some are quest-chains) you can do all rewarding different skins, items and stuff. So when you make sure all quest are not the same it would not be a grind.
“Oh crafting! Everyone loves crafting! Going out to grind for all those materials ” Also that does not have to be true when designed right. Sure some mats can require some farming but should not have to be to bad. Would we go to the WoW example again. For the mats I needed a lot of you usually could simply go to one area to get (for example) that ore. Highest level ore would not be harder to get but be in a higher level area. The thing that would really take time was getting the recipe. But the mats would not be that bad. Of course in GW2 that is not the case at this time, but thats another discussion.
“You mean going and finding one special event where there would be a whole crowd of people around, and you having to hope you deal enough dmg before the target dies?” Just as with the mats also here you are way to much locked in the GW2 way of things. No wonder you see grind everywhere. I would think finding one special events, boss, dungeon and having to complete that to be able to get the recipe.
“Or going about and killing random things to hope it drops.” Not random, specific (in GW2 it usually is random, again your to much locked in the way GW2 makes it’s grind) that would also result is higher drop-rates then when a game drops it from random things all over the place.
That would be the least interesting of all the options I did give but yes I rather have a few items locked behind this then almost all locked behind a gold-grind. That is true.
1/2
First of all I dont play games to suffer, that would be counterproductive to my escapist entertainment. I enjoyed every bit of my playing this game for the rewards I have received. Too many people here are ignoring that the journey is as important as the destination.
“Too many people here are ignoring that the journey is as important as the destination.”
Maybe it’s just the opposite? They do understand the journey to be as important, if not more, as the destination. However they consider the journey to be a grind. What is then the reason for the complain.
This important part should not feel like a grind. It’s to important for that.
While other say ‘The goal you want, that cosmetic’ is optional, does not give any stats. So you should not complain about the journey towards it being a grind (to you).
Devata, essentially your entire post is boiling down to you don’t like how Anet made their game. You want them to change it to suit your needs, because you don’t like a specific aspect. You consider it to be ‘grind.’ Anet has defined what they meant by ‘no grind’ and that’s really the end of the discussion. You don’t have to like it, you don’t necessarily have to agree, but that’s their approach.
Of course you could say that about any complain.
This whole conversation is completely meaningless because everyone is using different definitions of what grind is. I don’t grind in this game. I don’t have to grind. I do a variety of activities and I can get what I want…I’ve done it all without grinding, including five legendaries. Yeah, it takes a lot longer my way, but it can be done.
if you dont feel there is any grind, then you really have nothing to add to the topic of how to ease, eliminate, or change it. Let the people feel it express their views, and possible solutions. It wont really effect you in any case.
I didn’t say I don’t feel there’s any grind, so why put words in my mouth. I simply said there’s no required grind and on top of that, I choose not to grind because I dislike it.
Nor can you say something will or won’t affect me, even if it doesn’t directly affect my play style. If people end up pressuring Anet to make the game less grindy and then people run out of stuff to do and leave the game that affects everyone.
There are people here who don’t understand that having long term goals you have to work towards are the only thing keeping some people in the game. Maybe not you. Maybe not all people, but some people.
You have to give enough people enough of what they want for the game to exist…or it will cease to exist at some point. I’d say that affects me.
" I simply said there’s no required grind" But again, grind is still grind.
" If people end up pressuring Anet to make the game less grindy and then people run out of stuff to do and leave the game that affects everyone." Yeah same as when people run away from the game because they are bored (partly because of all the grind).
“There are people here who don’t understand that having long term goals you have to work towards are the only thing " I think we all understand that. I think you don’t understand that not everything has to be this (gold) grind (gold) grind (gold) grind and still allow for long term goals.
In fact I don’t understand why you think it would automatically take less time. If you put the items directly behind content it might take you just as long as to unlock skin x as it would not take you to grind gold for that same skin x.
There is no reason why it would have to take less time. Thats really something that you made up yourself but that is not what people who complain about grind are (in general) asking for.
It’s not all equal based on YOUR personal playstyle.
It’s a simple matter of content, gating content behind grind makes it mandatory, regardless if you do or not even enjoy that content. If by any chance you ever WANT to do it, you can’t, unless you grind first.
Skins on the other hand are completely optional “grind” because you are not locked out of anything if you don’t get them.
Optional grind doesn’t lock you out of content, therefore it’s not mandatory, so it’s optional. Also, if you want skins, you can get most of them in a million different ways, you might get lucky and get them instantly, you might get lucky and get a valuable drop, sell it and get that skin. You at least have a lot of choice on how and when to get your skins, it’s not like it’s locked behind specific content that you first need to grind in order to get them (with some exceptions)
There are some rare exceptions, the luminescent skin set, precursors and some unique exotics that depend way too much on luck (they are “fixing” the precursors, maybe they will fix the others too?). Those are horribly designed, but what about anything else? You can get Gem Store skins too simply by playing the content you enjoy, the only question is WHEN.
The difference with mandatory grind is that you can’t get the rewards it gives, usually playable content, but can also be unique skins as well, by playing anything else the game has to offer. I can’t get access to specific high end skins and high end content without first grinding to access it.
On the other hand, the grind in GW2 is almost completely optional, you can get nearly everything by playing anywhere and doing anything you want.
“On the other hand, the grind in GW2 is almost completely optional” That might be true for your definition of optional grind but like the title of this thread says..
Grind is still grind. (‘optional’ or not)
With the way rewards are handled in GW2, if you feel that you are grinding it is because you CHOSE to take the efficient route rather than the fun route to your target.
All routes lead to the same target. I can PvP and buy nearly anything. I can WvW and buy nearly anything. I can PvE and buy nearly anything. I can do dungeons or fractals and buy nearly anything. I can farm Orr or Silverwastes and buy nearly anything. I can do nearly anything and as a result can buy nearly anything.
This means that I can completely avoid doing anything I don’t want to do and still get the same rewards as the guy who does the complete opposite.
That is what is meant by “no grind philosophy”. You can play the type of content that you like and will still get the same rewards as everyone else.
If you are doing content you don’t like simply because it is “faster”, then you are simply cheating yourself out of enjoyment of the game to satisfy your demand for instant gratification.
The fun route for me is hunting down the item. However this fun rout does not exist for most items. Only the grind option does. So there is nothing to chose from.
And no, I do not grind, that means a big part of the content is just not available in GW2 making the game in total more boring.
Oow and about all those routes. Other things I do like to do in GW2 are the guild-missions what gives me about 3 gold a week. Then I like to do JP’s whats gives me.. well basically nothing (a few silver) and I like to do WvW but I prefer the defending part what tends to cost money for upgrades and stuff. So they will not make me a lot of money. Besides I like the hunt for item, I do not want to just buy them. It makes also the reward itself less interesting.
“That is what is meant by “no grind philosophy”. You can play the type of content that you like and will still get the same rewards as everyone else.”
Except if that type of content you like is hunting down items?
Yes “grind is grind.” There is; however a difference between “required” and “optional.” Some would go so far as to say a very big difference.
Now, that said. I will point out that all games have grind. To one extent or another. If you are looking for a game with absolutely no grind, an MMO is not what you’re looking for. Even GW1 had grind. Both required and optional.
Only problem is the what is optional for you might be the preferred game-play for another person (so not optional for him) and the other way around.
And yes all games allow for some grind but I did play many MMO’s where I did not run into the grind I do run into here… For me that is when wanting to hunt down items, skins, cosmetics, and so on.
I don’t think you understand what ‘optional’ means. If it depends on your personal choice of playstyle, then it is, by definition, optional. You choose how you play and the goals you set.
optional
??p?(?)n(?)l/
adjectiveavailable to be chosen but not obligatory.
“I don’t think you understand what ‘optional’ means.” Oow I perfectly understand what optional means. It means ‘something you do not have to do’. You know, like playing a video-game. So by the real definition of ‘optional’ the whole discussion of ‘required’ grind can be thrown away as that would make all grind in any game ‘optional’.
I did not come up with the nonsense idea of ‘but it’s optional so it’s not bad’.
But still.. grind is grind.
What we need here is clarity of terminology.
When I hear grind I think: repetitive mandatory activity
When I hear farming I think: repetitive optional activityYes and no.. it was optional for me because I did feel the need to do those raids. I however do feel like getting those cosmetics so if I would want to do that in GW2 the grind is required for me.
Just to clarify, WoW was optional because you wanted to do raids, and GW2 is not optional because you want to get the skins. Logic seems inconsistent. Unless you’re missing a not or two there.
That is indeed the target, while for that people have to accept that indeed one person’s ‘optional’ grind is acceptable while another’s is not.
I’m tell you, clarity of terminology is important.
I would define grind as working for a currency to then being able to gain something. Like grinding XP to level, or grinding gold to buy items. While farming I consider doing a task multiple times to get a drop you like.
But when a farm becomes to extreme people also tent to refer to it as grind.
Oow, and yes there was a ‘not’ missing in that sentence.
So how do you go about making it so you can hunt them down. Give me a concrete example, because from my understanding, if they take away a grind and make it so you can just “hunt it down” you’ll attain it a lot faster, without grind. That leaves people with nothing to work towards at which point many people do leave games. Not to mention the obvious fact that once you have those skins without that grind what do you do then? Anet would have to make skins faster, or people would have nothing to do.
“So how do you go about making it so you can hunt them down. Give me a concrete example ”
It would not be one way but a number of ways. You can make them rewards for quest (with the events it’s a little harder, traditional quest would be better fitted for it) or even complete quest chains that can take a very long time. You could also have crafts where you create them yourself (but then you need to hunt down the recipe’s and ingredients), rewards for dungeons. Direct rewards but also rng, however because the item drops in one spot the rng can be more reasonable then when you make stuff drop in many places (like the current loot system does) or just behind some challenging content (like Liadri), and you can make some a simple farm (that group of moa’s can drop a mini moa), other you simply hide in the world with a low ‘spawn-rate’, think of an egg that spawns once in a while that gives you a mini.
Of course you can do all the things I just mentioned in different difficulties so some will be fast and easy to get while other will take longer and are harder to get. Some might even be upgrades… Get a silver hammer-skin for doing dungeon x, do the harder part and it will have a gold handle and do the hardest difficulty and it will have some glow over it.
If you put all these skins, animations, mini, mounts (glider skins) and toys behind that sort of content it should easily keep people busy until the next expansion that adds new content with new rewards behind it.
The rng you put in there might still feel like a little farm but at least it’s not all gold, gold gold. No, now you can directly work towards the goal / skin / cosmetic.
The thread can be better be used to talk about how it can be approved. How to move in the better direction again for the HoT release, because if it doesn’t imho that is going to be a big problem for Anet. People will not keep coming back if they keep being disappointed.
Devata, your intentions are noble, but I don’t think your idea of reducing grind and increasing fun will happen.
ArenaNet has no reason to make it happen.
“ArenaNet has no reason to make it happen. ”
I do not think that is true. Anet has been losing income ever since release. Now we don’t know the number of players but likely if they get less and less income they are likely also losing players.
What would be a reason to leave a game? Most likely reason is because your done with it and it’s getting boring. Well one reason why people might start finding a game boring is because it’s all grind, grind and more grind. Eventually people will get tired of that. Some sooner then later.
So to keep the game strong for years to come they even have to change it. If they don’t, all the people who left because the game became boring for them because of the grind, and who will come back for HoT, they will leave again. And this time they will not return for the second expansion. That is why Anet will have to do something about it if they really want to keep this game going strong for years. Something you would think Anet wants. Ncsoft on the other hand can simply release another title as people remember GW2 and Anet, not Ncsoft.
“Of course, making it with great care would lead to more people liking it and less people not liking it, but it would still not be a 100% success.” Sure, but the current way is also not a 100% success. That will never be the case. But at least they have a bigger player-base they can keep selling expansions to. It also means a bigger name so more options for merchandise and so on.
“This is what they did with the original Guild Wars, mostly in the beginning of the game. ” And what made them so successful that they could build GW2, and had made such a big name for themselves that GW2 was the best selling MMO at the time.
2/2
“So you played WowW for a lonmg time , but in here you found the problem with gold ? ” When played WoW mainly by hunting down mini’s, mounts, mini-pets, fun items (toys) and crafting fun-crafts that rewarded these sort of items. There never was a need to grind gold to get these items. It was an option for many of those items, but I liked the hunt and so never grinded for gold or had to grind for gold if I wanted to get any of these things. That is the difference.
“Most mount and cosmetic items in WoW, comes from Raids .” Yeah, lets just trow in some complete nonsense to try and make a point. By far most mounts and cosmetics don’t. Usually there is one or two mounts at the highest raid at the time and some BiS gear. In my quest for mounts, and mini’s and toys and other skins I can’t remember really running into the problem of not being able to get any of those things because it was in the highest tier raid, but it sure is possible.. with like 2 mounts or so.
“Now if you didnt do raids , then you waited till the next x-pack to solo the Raids .” I guess that would be an option. But getting all the ‘cosmetics’ can easily take up until the next expansion. So I don’t think you really had to ‘wait’.
“Then why you want moost gear in GW2 NOW ? ” Where did I say I wanted it NOW? I mean you putting it in caps must mean this is some thing I very clearly said. Back to reality again. I didn’t. In fact I want some thing to be locked behind some challenging content that will mean you won’t get it NOW.
“Most Limited collector items will show up again later this year too , so ofc you can w8 ” Sure I can, and then buy them with the gold I would have grinding. Thats, a great suggestion you make there, that will take away the grind… oow wait, no it doesn’t.
“From tommorow , you shoudnt avoid my posts :P ” If you will stickt to the facts and context I won’t, else I will.
~
“they should remove the gem store and create more x-packs , i am not a developer but they should make come true”
I only referred to that in a few comments.. You know, when people say things like ‘but they have to earn money’. Oow and I am a developer, so I don’t think I said I wasn’t.
“Without understanding that LIVE UPDATES cost money …. ” Live updates as in LS updates you mean? But how is that relevant if you refer to me saying they should focus on x-packs?
“And you simply copy -paste the cash gained from the GTA and with the prediction that you envisioned other games falling … ” Not sure what you are saying here or what you are referring to. But seeing how you are talking about the x-pack options I did mention in the other thread the GTA example was just to show that a model as that could work.
“ ‘’make a game for the FREAKS and ppl will come . Make a game for casual and it might die ’’
What kind of envisioned is that ????” Lol by placing that here without the context it was in.. well it’s completely out of context. If you need to use this sort of tricks to try and get your points does that mean you don’t have any points? Anyway, just for the record, here is the context.
This was from a discussion in another thread (From 2011) on another site (beta forums for Crysis 2). The ‘freaks’ was the way another person in that thread referred to PC-gamers. The point I made there was that for Crysis the PC-game / version was basically the billboard for the game. So I said, make the game to be for the console players (that were the casuals in this quote) game-play wise but also technically wise, and the game might die, but make sure you have the PC-gamers on your site and people will come. Based on that I even made the prediction that if Crytec would do that (as they did) sales of Crysis 2 would still be good because people had some expectations from Crysis 1, but then Crysis 3 sales would be bad and there might be no Crysis 4. Looks like I was spot on.
So that was the type of vision that history has proven right. To answer your question. But of course you need to understand the context to know what was said (as you do, as you quoted it).
“THE MAJORITY OF THE PPL HATING ONE THING and the majestic DEVATA dont want to grind gold ….. ” Ah it’s only me who dislikes that. Everybody else loves to grind gold? The hate for that other thing is because that is what people did run into a lot in many other MMO’s. But many, many people dislike the boring grind including that for gold or other currency’s. Not only the majestic Devata. We all know that so who are you kidding I wonder?
“What part of the community are you represent ? ” I am just giving my vision, I am not trying to represent anybody. But I guess you could say with this discussion I represent anybody who dislikes all the grind in GW2, including the ‘grind for gold’ for most things.
“The more than more that left of the GRIND GOLD ? ” Next time you want me to answer your question make sure you ask it in English, because I have no idea what your question is.
“While in all games , collecting gold comes naturally in any activity , you simply hate to push the CONVERSION bottun and buy that item in GW2 ? ” It’s no problem that ‘earning’ gold is something that happes in an MMO’s. The problem is that gold (or currency) is the only realistic way to get by far most of the items you might like. While you can’t directly hunt down most of those items. Like in many other games you can, be it by completing a quest, or as part of a craft, or for completion a dungeon, or sometimes even by farming. That also some naturally in many MMO’s. Nut not in GW2, where the focus is so much on skins, toys and that sort of items.
1/2
Yes “grind is grind.” There is; however a difference between “required” and “optional.” Some would go so far as to say a very big difference.
Now, that said. I will point out that all games have grind. To one extent or another. If you are looking for a game with absolutely no grind, an MMO is not what you’re looking for. Even GW1 had grind. Both required and optional.
Only problem is the what is optional for you might be the preferred game-play for another person (so not optional for him) and the other way around.
And yes all games allow for some grind but I did play many MMO’s where I did not run into the grind I do run into here… For me that is when wanting to hunt down items, skins, cosmetics, and so on.
Grind is different from optional grind though. If you say have to grind to level, it’s different than if you don’t have to.
I even felt like I was grinding in Guild Wars 1, capping all the elite skills. But it wasn’t actually grind. I was killing different bosses in different areas all the time. It just felt like a grind. That was far more necessary from a gameplay perspective than the grind in this game.
No I don’t agree. I don’t think all grind is equal.
But what is optional.
Not all grind is equal. There is optional and required grind.
Optional Grind is grind that does not give you access to any type of content, only gives you some extra pretty skins.
Required grind is grind that prevents you from doing specific content before you finish it first.
Even if someone says they don’t do the content that requires the grind, maybe they don’t do it BECAUSE there is a grind involved? If there was no grind-gated content, maybe more people would actually play that type of content?
Even if you don’t play it, it’s still content that exists in the game and you can’t access before doing the mandatory grind for it.
“Not all grind is equal. There is optional and required grind.
Optional Grind is grind that does not give you access to any type of content, only gives you some extra pretty skins.”
It’s not all equal based on YOUR personal playstyle.
The grind for skins is for ME way, way, way worse then the grind for BiS gear that locks out the highest level raids as you see in games like WoW. Simply because hunting down skins is what I like to do and I don’t care for the highest level raids in WoW. Couldn’t care less about that and so couldn’t care less about BiS gear. Thats means to ME this grind is worse but to YOU that grind is worse.
So grind is only not equal depending on your personal play-style. There is NO general truth for what is worse.
Btw, you could just as well argue that in GW2 the content of hunting down kins is locked behind grind. I do not have access to that content.
Not to mention that in GW2 cosmetics is what it is all about while highest level raids is not. So basing it on the game the skin grind is maybe even worse then the BiS gear grind. Or other said, BiS gear in GW2 is the best skin, not the best stats.
“Even if someone says they don’t do the content that requires the grind, maybe they don’t do it BECAUSE there is a grind involved? ”
Thats possible. In GW2 I do not hunt down skins for that reason. While I would love to do that.
“If there was no grind-gated content, maybe more people would actually play that type of content?” Sure and so more people who play the game, so lets make that happen!
“Even if you don’t play it, it’s still content that exists in the game and you can’t access before doing the mandatory grind for it.”
Yeah just as you grind for skins in stead of hunting them down. Even if you don’t see it as an important element of this game.
All grind of any sort in any game is optional. I guess the OP’s point is that he would like a discussion about how to reduce grind and increase fun rather than a focus on whether or not one person’s optional grind is acceptible while another’s is not.
That is indeed the target, while for that people have to accept that indeed one person’s ‘optional’ grind is acceptable while another’s is not.
Not this again…
1. Post in that thread then if you want to continue it, why make a new one?
2. Grind for cosmetic items is optional
3. No, I did not read your post
4. /thread
If you do not feel the need to read, then also do not post your unfounded (not based on what was said, as you did not read it) comment.
Grind is different from optional grind though. If you say have to grind to level, it’s different than if you don’t have to.
I even felt like I was grinding in Guild Wars 1, capping all the elite skills. But it wasn’t actually grind. I was killing different bosses in different areas all the time. It just felt like a grind. That was far more necessary from a gameplay perspective than the grind in this game.
No I don’t agree. I don’t think all grind is equal.
But what is optional.
The so called ‘required’ grind in many other games like WoW was never required for me because I did not want to do the highest lever raids. So does that not make it optional?
Yes and no.. it was optional for me because I did not feel the need to do those raids. I however do feel like getting those cosmetics so if I would want to do that in GW2 the grind is required for me.
It just depends on what you like to do if it’s option for you. However it’s both not ‘required’ in general.
So when you say that is required and this is not it only means you feel the need to be able to do those highest level raids while you do not feel the need to get the cosmetics. Thats personal.
But for the people who like to hunt for the item, grind is grind.
(edited by Devata.6589)
This thread is also an continuation of https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/35#post4875451
In that topic Colin explained their no-grind philosophy. Basically saying with there no-grind-philosophy they simply tried to prevent ‘required’ grind (something that does not really exist in a optional thing as a game) and they wanted to give people multiple ways to get something so as long as that was possible it was oke. At the same time acknowledging that there was indeed grind in the game and that it could be improved.
The subject in this thread however is that grind is still grind. No matter if I grind for an ‘optional’ cosmetic item of for an ‘optional’ stats items to be able to do a dungeon (that some people then do not consider optional). Also no matter if I can grind for gold or some other currency in 5 ways, I am still grinding that currency instead of working directly towards getting that item (Like you have with an items like Liadri).
People experience this grind no matter if it’s the grind Anet does, or does not try to prevent with there ‘no-grind-philosophy’ and then start to consider the game boring. If enough people have this then it is a problem for the game.
Now I would basically like to continue the “No-Grind-philosophy” thread from here on but looking at it from this different perspective (grind is grind and that is a problem) in stead of focusing on the ‘no-grind-philosophy’
—
Lets not talk about who lied and why and who can proof it because as I see it its not one answer.
Also that gives admin a good bad excuse to close a thread.
While it is an important thread and Anet closing it’s eyes for this problem by closing the thread is the worse they can do.
Multiple people at the company probably did want to make the game they talked about but partly that just failed because things did not work out the way they hoped and partly because monetize people got a say in the game-development and there focus is on getting people to buy gems, not to create the best game. Eventually you then end up with something else then you envisioned.
The thread can be better be used to talk about how it can be approved. How to move in the better direction again for the HoT release, because if it doesn’t imho that is going to be a big problem for Anet. People will not keep coming back if they keep being disappointed.
That is also why I do not get the people rushing in these thread to defend the grind by saying it’s optional or it’s not that bad. It’s not bad for them, but that does not mean it’s also not bad for many other people, if it wasn’t, threads like this one would not exist.
Lets take the World completion change as an example. Soon you will not need to have WvW maps completed anymore. For me however the problem with map-completion is the mechanic.. running from PoI to Vista, to heart to waypoint. Striping of a boring list. I will explore maps but will not start striping of this list (while needed if I want to get a legendary… or I grind gold for it and buy it of-course). This results in me still not having world completion. However the WvW maps for me personal where never a big problem, in fact while not having world completion I do have WvW completion on multiple characters.
And while I might bring up this boring mechanic of the world completion once in a while I will not now run into the forums to say the WvW maps are not a problem and should stay in word completion. No, because while for me they are not a problem I know they are a problem for other people. But then why do other people feel the need to come in threads like this and try to defend or ignore the grind that also a lot of people do experience? Maybe it’s not a problem for you but it is for many other people.
So it would be much better to find a solution then to try and defend it because you personally do not have a problem with it. And for Anet, they did show they are willing to improve on parts where many people complain about.. The trouble with this grindy gameplay however is that is directly hits there monetization so that will be a little harder to change (politic wise). But a new expansion would be the perfect moment to do something about it.
~
“I would talk about WoW a lot less, if you haven’t played it. There are things in WoW you can only get from the cash shop and there’s NO OPTION to grind for those things. You can only buy them cash.”
I did play it and yes there are a few of those items (so little that in a list of about 300 mounts I wanted to hunt down, only 10 where not possible because they were in the cash-shop or on a card game or something like that). Still the majority I can hunt down in the world, while the majority in GW2 I can only grind for. Really I rather have a few items I can’t get at all (without buying) and by far most that I can hunt down in the world. Then to be able to get them almost all but by far most only by grinding (or by buying) and a small number I can directly hunt down in the world.
This is because I want to have fun in the game, and I don’t consider grinding boring, not fun.
“or you can just play the game casually and not have to buy everything that comes out.” Oow I am not talking about all. Just once in a few a new thing gets added that you might like. It would still be out of reach with ‘casual’ playing.
“If you make the game all about acquisition and nothing else, sure you’ll probably end up grinding.” Well for me an MMORPG is for a large part about that yes, not only but a large part. I like the hunt. Not a problem in most MMO’s, in fact it’s a lot of fun, but in GW2 that’s just a boring grind. Nice for you, you don’t play that way but many do.. Why do you think Anet does focus so much on cosmetics? Because it knows people like that. But then they also decide to monetize that hoping people with spend cash on it instead of playing for it resulting in people grinding for it but the hunt for it is dead.
Irrelevant though. If you wanted a sparkle pony you had to buy it with cash. It was your only option. Period. End of story. Done.
Guild Wars 2 at least gives you two options for cash shop stuff.
Anyway I think your entire outlook on this whole not just grind situation but game situation is completely unrealistic. I truly believe the game you think they could make can’t be made today with today’s market situation.
“Irrelevant though. If you wanted a sparkle pony you had to buy it with cash. It was your only option. Period. End of story. Done.” We are talking about playing the game in general (and how that feels grindy to many people), not about how to get one specific item. So sorry but the only thing irrelevant here is this statement of yours.
“Guild Wars 2 at least gives you two options for cash shop stuff.” Grind (the problem we talk about) and cash. And it puts most new stuff in the in the cash-shop resulting for a big part of the grind we see. Yes.
“I truly believe the game you think they could make can’t be made today with today’s market situation.” Are you now saying.. “yeah it’s bad, but better is not possible”?, I think it is and I have seen better examples of things like hunting down items vs grind in other games.
Devata I’ve always said it’s not possible, it’s not something I suddenly thought.
We could go back to our discussion from months ago and I told you even then that the entire industry has changed and the amount of work to make a game today is greater than years ago and the amount of money it takes is greater and the competition is greater. You seemed to be locked in time, if Guild Wars 1 could do it it could work now. I don’t believe it today and I didn’t believe it six months ago.
But the more posts you make on the topic, the more justified I feel in that belief.
“We could go back to our discussion from months ago, But the more posts you make on the topic, the more justified I feel in that belief.”
You know, you did bring this up again right?.. not me. Indeed a discussion we did have before. And you bringing this idea of you up again does indeed not justify it any more. It’s only a little strange that you now act as if I post about it again.. that was simply a reaction on your post where you posted about that idea of you that it would not be possible, again. For all my reasons why it would still work I would suggest you read them again. no need to go on about this subject again. you are not going to change your mind anyway. Nor am I.
(edited by Devata.6589)