Guild Wars 2

Donari.5237:

I think the OP’s main complaint about the chests is that they just magically appear when a boss dies, even a mobile boss in the case of patrolling champions, and why would the monster be hauling a giant heavy chest around?

While I respect the wish for deeper immersion, I think this is a case where game play trumps realism. If the loot is too well integrated into the landscape, it will become easy to miss it. So events like the giant in the Kessex cave who opens up his landslide to let players open his chest after they help him evict trespassers in his home can retain their cool factor without becoming a standard. I’ve seen a lot of players just run off after the event ends, not knowing there is another reward coming (ok, it’s a small Kessex-level blue, but still!).

But why not simply loot the thing you killed? It’s so basic, easy, logically and feels more like a reward for the kill imho. Of course I would then also expect more loot that fits with the thing I killed and this might be why they use chest as they seem to have separate loot tables.

The only reason I can think of they do this is because they created MF and then came with a loot system they wanted to have a lot of control over but now the MF was messing with that.

ReaverKane.7598:

I disagree with the immersion conundrum, sure its awkward that a chest comes out of nowhere, but then again same thing can be said of fully adult creatures just showing up where we just killed some others of its kind.

I do agree that its kind of bad that MF doesn’t affect chests, specially since usually that’s the only reward we get from some of the most challenging content (ie world bosses).

`but then again same thing can be said of fully adult creatures just showing up where we just killed some others of its kind.` Well that is also something I would try to avoid as much as possible. If it make no sense and there is no need for something to re-spawn then don’t and at least try to keep it out of the line of sign as much as possible. With the chest.. why not simply loot the thing you just killed? It makes more sense, it works better from ‘feeling / physiological’ way imho.

pdavis.8031:

Chests of loot are a staple in any fantasy game.
Not only does it fit the theme of being a fantasy game, it also serves a mechanical and psychological purpose.
Mechanically it separates the “good” stuff from the mundane. Implying that the boss has hidden his treasures away in a safe location, and now that they have been defeating, the spoils are the players.
Psychologically its a big shiny reward. Having been indoctrinated into the world of fantasy, where chests are common, when we see a chest, something triggers in our brains that says: “OOOOO A chest! Must be something good!!” Although our experience has taught us differently, that the good loot/rewards are too few and far between, everytime we see a chest it triggers that response. It’s the same reason people buy/farm keys. Although we KNOW without a doubt that the chances of getting something worthwhile in a BLTC chest is beyond rare, we still do it, because “OOOOO A Chest! Must be something good!!”

“Chests of loot are a staple in any fantasy game.” Not in the usage and quantity you have it in GW2.

“Mechanically it separates the “good” stuff from the mundane." The thing you kill or complete, like a a ‘boss’ (or other hard mob / NPC) vs a rat in the open world should for the biggest part separate the goos loot from the bad.

“Implying that the boss has hidden his treasures” That is possible in some cases but with all those chest popping up all over the place that doesn’t work anymore.

“Psychologically its a big shiny reward.” Well for me it would work the other way around. Looting the boss is more interesting then the chest. Of course I do know the chest have the better loot but they simply don’t feel special. The fact that they have the better loot is nothing more then a fact I know but doesn’t work positive psychologically the way you describe it. Just the other way around. I guess that if there would be one chest somewhere sure this would be the case but with all the chest all over the place this is completely gone.

About the guy who said at this point it would be to much to take it out. Well I have the feeling that this chest-like reward (same for the bags) really increased during the life-time of the game.

Torenn.2598:

More fitting loot containers would be okay, but please don’t give me any more bags. I’m tired of double-clicking everything in my inventory as it is.

Bags fit in this same category I guess but are in a way the interface equality of chests.

Ravenmoon.5318:

To the guy screaming about mantle. Sorry to disappoint but as it is now it is a proprietary API locked to AMD. Their plans were to open it to other vendors but obviously nVidia weren’t interested in supporting it, HOWEVER, the next OpenGL standard, namely Vulkan, is basically Mantle.

Here’s the blogpost about it: http://community.amd.com/community/amd-blogs/amd-gaming/blog/2015/03/03/one-of-mantles-futures-vulkan

I like AMD too but they have never had a working Mantle demo on an nVidia or Intel GPU.

Good news is, Vulkan is meant to work on any major OS (including WXP) and most modern GPUs.

AMD advised to not focus on Mantle but on DirectX 12 and Vulkan. Mantle was a really good idea of AMD but became obsolete with DX12 and Vulkan.

Doggie.3184:

Then we also need is more unique chests/containers then overall then if you hate chests. Jars, Tree Trunks, Pots, Crates, Piles of Bones/guts, Loose Rocks, Bookcases, Bunnies holding objects they hand you, Mimics, Barrels, Things that explode, severed Stomach Organs filled with loot, and so on.

The question is.. ‘does it make sense’. I think when you design an MMO that should be one of the main question you should ask yourself.. make sense within the realm of the world obviously.

Let’s say we are in some pirate dungeon and you killed the end-boss (the captain) some animation start, you see one of the players walk to the body, take a key and walk to a door to open it and behind it there is a chest. That’s fine.

The chest the JP’s are sort of acceptable while not the greatest. Somebody hides his chest on some hard to reach place hoping nobody will fund anyway, could make a some sense.

But you kill a boss and there pops up a chest, the same for all bosses and many mobs. Well then it becomes a little strange.

Anyway sure, also in those where chest make sort of sense (like the JP’s) there could be way better containers. Somebody hiding his stuff in a Tree Trunk or some Jars would indeed be better. There are also a few more then chest but what is really immersion breaking are all the chest popping up out of nowhere.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Mirta.5029:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

XP is no longer supported, not by banks, not by microsoft, not by software manufacturers… unless they are A Net.

Win 2000 is not yet obsolete, not is windows 7 and 8 due to the fact they are NT versions. even though XP 64 was reasonable… I am glad I avoided XP entirely.

Windows 7 and 8 will get free upgrades to windows 10. so at the release of windows 10 there is no actual reason NOT to upgrade. Other platforms will get this upgrade as well… Only they require a full reinstall. This could be very nice, though I expect compatibility issues will arise,

Even if this game stays direct x 9 for computation , maybe the direct x 12 will unlock multithreaded rendering. using the hardware available… I cannot foresee this, but I imagine it being possible.

do remember that not only your operating system, but your hardware has to be compatible too. Some of my guildies are playing on the absolute lowest settings… But that’s the thing about MMOs. People with all sorts of hardware want to play it, so developers try to cater to all.

From what I heard this update wasn’t directed so much at the GPU but at the multithreading of the present single direct x thread, So it will be a big thing for all quad(and more) core users and the dual cores will remain in the positions where they are now…

If this is true I wouldn’t mind And even though I have a very powerfull PC I still have direct x 11 cards.

They might allow for directx 9+ to be allowed for the calculations, but still only refer to the instructions available in the direct-x 9 instruction set? so you could optimize use for GPU’s above direct x 9? not all possibilities have to be usefull…. most draw functions are probably still the same in direct x 12 as they are in direct x 9… Only the usage of the threads could be improved… whcih could be a VERY big thing.

Especially on a CPU bound game…

In fact it’s the other way around, DirectX 12 can be extremely good for CPU bound games. At least if the GPU is also used enough but the CPU is the bottleneck in many casus. Exactly what is the case in GW2. I did not ever check GPU ussage but most graphics are still renederen by the GPU. All these calls to the GPU first get ‘prepared’ by the CPU (creating CPU overhead) and then send to the GPU who then does the calculations. this means it still adds (a lot of) work to the CPU and it’s exactly this part where DirectX 12 is so strong, reducing the CPU overhead, allowing for more direct calls (less preparing) towards the GPU what means the CPU can spend it’s cycles on other things. In best case senario’s increasing FPS up to 60% and GW2 might be close to one of those ‘best case cenario’s’ because it’s uses GPU and CPU but the CPU being the bottleneck. That is where DirectX 12 is it’s strongest. At least on paper that is.

bob.5680:

Ah, but after that first year of “free” (nothing is really ever free) upgrades, we will then have to pay a monthly service charge to run Windows 10 (I believe) on new installations. For this reason, if no other, I plan to avoid Windows 10 like the plague. Even for the systems that I could upgrade it on for free during the first year I plan to pass.

While Microsoft might want to try a system like this and we might see it as an option in the future (what would be really bad) you are wrong here. Windows 10 will not be free for 1 year. You can upgrade for free the first year. After that, that option is gone. It’s not ‘free for the first year’. This is a misconception.

You are right, nothing is really for free (from a company standpoint at least) but in this case Microsoft simply wants people to move to Windows 10 (after the bad name they got with Windows. They want people to get familiar with Windows 10 so they are more likely to buy a Windows phone (and so they win back some of the market Google and Apple have). Microsoft will earn the money with you buying a Windows phone, with you wanted a PC with Windows after the first year, with you buying a tablet with Windows. People buying apps from the windows store (that hopefully will stay completely optional (not like the Apple store) but if Windows is popular the shop will be used anyway). Basically they seem to try to do the opposite of what they did with Windows 8. With 10 they want to make a system people first like and they earn money because people buy it (the non-free options) and buy apps in there store and buy office and so on. Instead of trying to manipulate people into using something they don’t like what they did with Windows 8.

Something Anet could maybe also learn something from. Of course nothing Microsoft is doing now gives any guarantees for the future but the ‘it’s only free the first year’ is not correct. Windows 10 will stay working also after the first year and you can buy it without subscription. In fact, Windows 10 will NOT be available as subscription Microsoft said. You simply don’t have the option to upgrade for ‘free’ after that first year.

The complete loot system in GW2 is a ‘problem’ or not very imaginative at best. Now that is a discussion by itself that is touched in the many thread about loot and grind in this forum but all the chest are really the Cherry on the pie of this loot-system.

It’s all chest, chest and chest. Bear in mind google follows my every move so knows I am on these forums and so will put search results with GW2 in it on top. Still when I search for ‘chests’ the first 3 results are GW2 related. Showing how big of a thing chests are in GW2.

Basically all the ‘better’ loot drops in chest. This is likely because chests have separate loot tables and magic find does not apply to them. Resulting in every time you kill a ‘boss’ or ‘harder mob’ of some kind, out of nowhere a chest pops up you can loot.

While the complete loot system itself is a bigger problem to me the chest are still some immersion breaking reminder of this all the time. When we kill a boss of mob simply let us loot the mob.. and let it drop some loot that for the biggest part make sense (not counting the trash it drops as well), like a drop-change for the weapon is uses. If magic find is the problem don’t let the magic find work on some of the items it can drop. Sure that might not be ‘fear’ on the other hand, you are now cheating your way out magic-find with the chests anyway.

At the very least we then don’t have these immersive breaking chest popping up all the time as a reminder of the bad loot system (mostly general drops instead of specific drops, resulting into currency grind) and it sort of gives the feeling you loot the thing you killed hiding the system in place. Sure that system should change as well but in this thread I specifically talk about the chest.

The precursor mastery looks like a positive. Less of a gold grind, more of hunt for the item. The same thing I was basically asking for in the “grind is still grind” thread https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Grind-is-still-grind/page/13#post4915208 Anet closed without good reason.

Also the fact that they make getting the mats for the legendary less of a boring gold grind is good. Now lets hope they make world completion also more about exploring then striping of a list of way-points, PoI, vista’s an hearths.

But more important. Lets hope they make all skins more of a hunt, not only the precursors while leaving the rest a boring grind. Thats really what the game needs to stay interesting for a longer time when HoT gets released and lets also hope the guild-halls will use a system that looks more like this then the influence system we now have.

At least is does show Anet knows where there flaws are and are willing to do something about it. That is good!!

Personally I do think it’s a positive that the new ones will be account-bound while in the grind thread most of the people defending the gold grind system usually referred to the fact that you could grind the gold in multiple ways so was not forced to do specific content. Something that never was a problem for me but I do wonder how those people will feel about this.

After the disappointment of a mastery system (that to me still seems to be like a boring currency grind like the WvW points) this is a big positive.

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maddoctor.2738:

Yet it wasn’t on the same level for its life-span. So you don’t consider Eotn in your calculation? We are talking about what first year only?

first two year but we can also add EotN to it if you like. Numbers are then still way more stable then GW2.

Actually it is the most relevant factor. There is a reason they changed to a bigger game using a different system, using a bigger team. To get a higher total income, and it worked. So saying it’s irrelevant isn’t going to work because it is the MOST relevant fact.

A bigger game and bigger team is not related to the cash-shop and the different model isen’t really different until about half a year after release. (Before that most income did still come from the box-sales so had more in common with the GW1 model). In fact the game was sold as B2P where the cash-shop would only have a minor role. So in no way was this model responsible for the size (and so total income) for this game.. Really if anything was, that it was GW1 and it’s model. GW1 gave Anet it’s name and made GW2 possible.

Guild Wars 1 had drops in income in-between expansions while Guild Wars 2 is still stable. Instead of going up and down GW2 stayed at the same place after the release sales. So what’s your point?

It has been explained to you, those ups and down are the nature of the model, but that
it overall did keep a steady income. We could also change to graph to only show yearly figures. The graph would then still be completely fine but now you would see a way more strait line.

You are simply looking at the graph long. Stable over a 2,5 years is also stable, even if in that period there where drops. When you earns a stable amount of income over 5 years you would see huge ups and downs when making a graph that shows every day. So according to your logic you would then not have a stable income.

The decline is smaller than the decline in GW1 after Nightfall. They were still working on GW1 until EotN. It was a very much supported game at the time.

Not to mention that you are not looking at the data after the people where told GW1 was going to end (what will decrease playerbase and so should not be data you look at for good statistics) to proof, it’s still wong. EotN was >50% of initial sale. GW2 initial drop was already to > 33% of it’s initial sales (and never did go above that). Then at 2,5 year later after release (the time EotN was released for GW1) it was at 17% of initial sale.

Not really. Just take a look at EotN while it was fully supported, it didn’t reach 100% at all.

I was not looking at that (attention had already shifted to GW2!) but even if I did the average would still be way closer to 100% then what is the case with GW2.

I could say the same about you. You can’t choose which part of the data you will focus on. I look until EotN, you choose to ignore it, there is no 100% until EotN at all.

While there are many reasons why you shouldn’t look at that for good numbers, even if you do the numbers are still better (more stable).

Maintaining 10k people for any given activity is harder than maintaining 1k. It’s just that simple.

Thats why this is a bigger game with a bigger team. That should level it out. If it does not the GW1 team was to big or the GW2 team is to small. You see, the size of the team is related to the size of the project. Or that should be the case.

They didn’t though. EotN didn’t reach the same amount of sales. Also, the GW1 campaigns were sold separately at full price. There is a difference here.

Said enough why you shouldn’t look at EotN, sales where still higher (compared to initial sale) then when you compare GW2 gem sales to its initial sale.

Yes we are talking about a different model. That was why we where comparing the two remember.

Yes because reaching a spike of GW2 sale is the same as reaching the same level of sale as GW1… the difference is, at the worst point in income history for GW2 it still has more income than the best point of GW1.

This number might be positive compared to GW2 but it might also be a negative. GW2 is a bigger game but that means also a bigger team and all so bigger running cost.

This is the only part we don’t have the numbers for to say anything useful about. Thats why we take it out of the equation.

But even if it was a positive it does not mean it’s positive compared to GW1’s stable income because if GW2 had manage to keep that the same as GW1 it would have earned much more money.

But GW1 was more grindy than GW2, how do you explain that?

Simply, GW1 was more grindy to you. Maybe not to other people. In GW1 you could work more directly towards items.

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

However, the question is, could they do it? Who can say if they could make a new games worth of content in a year, or if they could maintain the same level of player interest that games like gw1, call of duty, or john madden were able to do.

But GW2 DOES maintain the same level of player interest, the graph is stable, it’s the GW1 graph that shows the complete opposite with high fluctuations.

it doesnt maintain its initial earnings/players. It has consisdently loss player interest/earnings.

you are looking at the graph wrong. look at the total earnings per year, compared to the total earnings per year.

when you look at it that way you will see that for the first 2-3 years, gw1 basically increased or maintained earnings, whereas GW2 consistenly goes down.

The earnings of GW1 during 2005 dropped after release, which is natural for every game, then increased in 2006 because of the two expansions. What about 2007 that had the release of EotN? It plunged downwards. The GW2 graph is flatter across the board, sure it has a decline in it, and probably that’s why they are releasing an expansion now.

But the real question is if a different system would’ve worked in GW2. I don’t think so, people who advocate the expansion system believe that an expansion every year would spike the sales of the game when it was released (like what happened in GW1) however, if there was an expansion every year, then we wouldn’t have a stable income in-between the expansions.

You can’t expect for the game graph to be as it is now, but with an added expansion spike, that’s unreasonable as someone must work on that expansion. So with an expansion every year, the graph would be full of spikes and times of nothingness in-between, you can’t be certain that it would result in better income overall.

“the graph would be full of spikes and times of nothingness in-between, you can’t be certain that it would result in better income overall.” You can also take that into account. In fact when I first calculated this (almost a year ago https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/NcSoft-earnings-1Q-14/page/3#post4029793 ) The earning are shown per quarter. So what I did for the comparison (based on the percentage of 100% being the initial spike) with GW1 I only looked at the income made with the spikes, completely ignoring the money made in-between. With GW2 I simply added the 4 quarters together to see what they made over the complete year. In that way you don’t ‘forget’ the parts in-between, well I did forget it for GW1 what would be in favor for GW2. However still the GW1 model (expansion based) when used in GW2 (using these numbers, just as phys explained) it suggested that model would have earned them more.

Of course there is no guarantee that GW2 would be so successful (being able to maintain its income) even when it used this model. To know that for sure we would need to life in some parallel universe but the numbers seem to suggest so. I also talked about this ever since Anet talked about their LS approach instead of expansions (half a year after release). Why do I think the other model works better? Simply because with that model the company ask itself the question “how do we get people to buy the next expansion. ”What imo will in most cases result in better content, the cash-shop model makes them ask the question “how do we get people to by gems”.

The answer to that last question basically results in the grind what brings us back to the subject of this topic. And it also explains why I think the grind is such a big issue (just as that model).

While grind is more the symptom of the underlying problem, that model.

Galen Grey.4709:

maddoctor.2738:

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did. The fact it’s subjective is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault though. Their definition is pretty crafty that way. It’s basically saying “If you choose to not play the game in a way that’s not boring to you, it’s not a grind”. Brilliant IMO.

Anet simply provide many different ways for players to enjoy themselves that reward play to get gear, even ascended. It’s, in essence, what a sandbox MMO allows you to do.

What I consider fun / not boring it working directly towards items, doing task that belong to the items (Like getting a dragons head for.. well killing that dragon).. Hunting down items. Not grinding gold to buy them.

This is a bit perplexing though.

so lets say if you repeat a dungeon 100 times to earn 200g to buy a certain great sword. doing the 100 dungeon runs is boring.

but doing 100 dungeon runs where 99 times you get absolutely nothing, not even 1c but on the 100th run the great sword you’re after drops. you find that fun?

I mean is it really possible the content you’re playing has no baring on your enjoyment only the reward and how exactly you got that dictates is whatever you’re doing is fun or not?

That’s the GW1 system, to get some high end skins you had to grind the specific content that dropped them for ages. Alternatively, you could earn gold by doing things you actually liked and buy those items.

In GW2 they removed the first option (grind specific content) and use the second option (earn gold how you want without grinding by enjoying the game). However there are lots of items that are acquired through content lately, glorious armor, carapace / luminescent armor etc

The GW1 system was equally grindy, or even way more grindy based on if you liked the content or not because it was pure RNG.

The Collection system is far superior than both systems and if it’s successful with precursors, maybe they will use it for lots of other things too

I’ve been there and done that in Gw1 too

yeah I also have high hopes for the collection system, the only think I would improve on it is making it tell the player where they can get items from the collection, or better yet have some npcs give you direction when you talk to them about collections.

I really don’t see how collections would work to reduce the grind, in fact as I see it they might even make it worse, however maybe I did miss something some announcement somewhere that means collections work different from how I understand it / how it now works. So with collections you get a specific item for having a complete set of items right? Now there is completely nothing wrong with that by itself, but how does that reduce the grind? Getting those items for the set still is the same grind as it is now, I really don’t see how that changes. The only difference is then that to get the item rewarded by collection now requires you to first get all those other items that all are grinds. So when you have a system where getting items is a grind, this would only increase the grind. But maybe I missed something?

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

anyhow, devata is correct, that IF guild wars 2 was able to duplicate the continued interest and desire that gw1 had, and released a game every year, they would have made more money than they made with the current model.

Not really true, Devata is incorrect. What continued interest and desire? GW1 graph is going up and down BECAUSE it’s an expansion based release while GW2 is at a stable pace. Having a stable income (with occasional spikes with expansions) is better than spikes with nearly no income at all in between.

Releasing a game every year is different for a coop rpg and a true MMORPG, they could do it with the lobby game that was GW1 but can’t really do it with GW2. So they went for something different, and that different earns then far more money than the old model, there is no denying this.

“Having a stable income (with occasional spikes with expansions) is better than spikes with nearly no income at all in between.” If you really think this you really have no idea’s how businesses work. Income on a yearly base is not problem whatsoever for many companies (including game-companies). A company is not like a person who needs his income on a monthly basis. Just as a person also does not need income on a daily basis. Some companies can even be fine with an investments that gets paid back 50 years later. But back to games. Yearly income is stable income and could also be just fine for MMORPG’s, many non-mmorpg’s release a new version every 3 years (now that might not work for MMORPg’s for multiple reasons, but yearly should not be a problem).

“and that different earns then far more money than the old model, there is no denying this.” Except if you look at the numbers that is.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did. The fact it’s subjective is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault though. Their definition is pretty crafty that way. It’s basically saying “If you choose to not play the game in a way that’s not boring to you, it’s not a grind”. Brilliant IMO.

Anet simply provide many different ways for players to enjoy themselves that reward play to get gear, even ascended. It’s, in essence, what a sandbox MMO allows you to do.

What I consider fun / not boring it working directly towards items, doing task that belong to the items (Like getting a dragons head for.. well killing that dragon).. Hunting down items. Not grinding gold to buy them.

This is a bit perplexing though.

so lets say if you repeat a dungeon 100 times to earn 200g to buy a certain great sword. doing the 100 dungeon runs is boring.

but doing 100 dungeon runs where 99 times you get absolutely nothing, not even 1c but on the 100th run the great sword you’re after drops. you find that fun?

I mean is it really possible the content you’re playing has no baring on your enjoyment only the reward and how exactly you got that dictates is whatever you’re doing is fun or not?

“but doing 100 dungeon runs where 99 times you get absolutely nothing, not even 1c but on the 100th run the great sword you’re after drops.

you find that fun?”

If I know for a fact it will drop at run 100? No. But if it’s a just a random drop that on average drops once every 100 runs for me it feels much less like a grind. Likely because every run basically is a separate chance. It can drop every time, there is always that rush of ‘will it drop’. With the currency where you know you need to do 100 runs it simply is counting up to 100. What indeed is more of a grind.

“Is it really possible the content you’re playing has no baring on your enjoyment.”
When content does not involve other players / pvp or very, very good AI (so every run will be pretty much the same, and at some point you simply did learn the trick) then the joy of the content will dissipates after you have done it a few times, but the reward can be the reason you still enjoy it, yes. That is similar to many casino games. A lot of the games are really boring if you look at the content but people enjoy is simply because of that same rush of ‘will I win’.

So this question depends on some factors but you could say for most PvE content after having done it a few times, then yes. The first few times you do it or if there is some more competition / pvp going on than no, in fact then you would not need a reward at all. So from that perspective these mini leader-board per specific content in HoT can be a really, really good addition to the game. (While I don’t think it will resolve the grind, it will however be able to keep content fun for a longer time when implemented correctly imho)

Cyninja.2954:

Devata.6589:

So in the end, 2,5 years after release we are left with a game that is not for those who like cosmetics but mainly for those who like stats or are fine with grinding. Of course that is also undermining their complete business model. Sure their is still a group left they is fine with simply buying what they want but the big question is if that group is big enough.

“I get more and more the feeling this game really isn’t for you.”
If it comes to the cosmetics parts no it isn’t indeed. Funny thing is, this game all being about cosmetics it should be.. Now you obviously not caring so much about cosmetics you can wonder if it should have been your game.

And you still do not understand what I’ve been trying to point out. This game was NOT catered to people who like to play dress-up. It was catered to people who don’t like powercreep. How is this so hard to understand?

Why would I quit? I enjoy the game as is, get cosmetic items if I want to and set personal goals as needed. Why is it so hard for you to let go of this game and realize, it won’t change to what you want it to be due to 1 simple reason: companys need to make money and Anet business model draws revenue from optional cosmetics.

you mean who like cosmetics and other fluff right? Something you clearly don’t like as you talk about it in this negative way.

Really all I have to say about that statement is lol. This game promoted to be for casuals where the biggest goals are not stats but gear that let you shoot rainbows with one-horns was not meant to be catering towards people who like cosmetics.

On the other hand, this statement of you says a lot and even only supports what I said. At least for everybody who does think the game was supposed to cater towards that group.

“Why would I quit?” I don’t know. Why you ask me? It’s not like I said you had to quit.

maddoctor.2738:

How do you come to that conclusion? The GW2 graph is a very stable one, aside from the huge spike and decline at release. And even at its worst point it’s still higher than GW1 ever did.

Again to complete income is irrelevant, it’s a much bigger project (also with much higher cost). And that ‘stable graph’ really is only going down with the exception of one Q4 (usually you don’t even count Q4 in sales if you want to see the overall line because Q4 tent to always be higher). It might not seem to be going down a lot but that is also because the graph is not very detailed because of the initial spike that scales everything up. If you look at the end of the initial spike and look where it is now it’s about half of that. If your income get cut in half in 2 years’ time you consider that a steady income?

[quote=4912869;maddoctor.2738:][quote=4912869;maddoctor.2738:]

phys.7689:

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

Well if you take the WoW example. Sure they go up and down, but over the 10 years total they did manage to keep up a big player-base.

GW1 was also able to keep a steady player-base over it’s life-spawn GW2 on the other hand has seem a drop ever since release (in income at least).

About people talking about a doomsday for 3 years. Personally I always looked at it for the long-term (2-5 / 3 years) because GW2 simply had a good core so has a good momentum. With HoT coming in this period I would add another half year to that (3,5 year), but not in the dooms-day scenario that it would be completely dead after that (IF they would not fix some of these core problems like the grind) but that it simply would become some second rank MMO while at the moment I think it is still a first rank MMO. However also now it’s not as popular as it could have been imho.

While I must also say Anet is very good at preventing a real drop in players to happen. Not so much with the LS but with the right solution just in time. For example when people got tired pretty soon after release Fractals was a good way to solve that. Then the temporary content of the LS was a real thread to the game and also that got solved imo just in time to prevent to many people getting burned out by that. Then now somewhere between the 2,5 and 3 years they come with the expansion. So who knows what they come with 5 / 6 months after release, maybe something that solves this grind or at least puts enough other things in the game to keep people busy with that moving away from the cosmetics as their focus point.

So GW1 had a steady player-base while GW2 is always declining? Got any data to back that up? Because the actual data we do have tells a different story:

This is a graph of GW1 sales:
[img]http://images.mmorpg.com/features/9427/images/GW2-Feb23-1.jpg[/img]

and this is a graph of GW2 sales:
[img]http://images.mmorpg.com/features/9427/images/GW2-Feb23-2.jpg[/img]

As you can very clearly see from the graphs, the worst point in GW2 history (Q4 2014) had more income than the BEST point in GW1 history (Q4 2006)

Yes GW2 has a problem with sales. GW2 has a very steady income, with the big spike at release and another possible spike when HoT is released, but otherwise the game is very stable when it comes to income.

Maybe when you are talking about a steady decline in income you were watching the GW1 data and not the GW2 data? Because the data suggest otherwise. I’d love to see where you get your info, besides “that’s what I think” which is where you are basing everything. Well what you think and reality are different.

According to you, a game that at it’s lowest point outperforms GW1 is going to “die” some day soon? I don’t think that makes any kind of sense. I guess GW1 was always a second-rank MMO to you, if at it’s best couldn’t perform better than how GW2 is performing now….

that shows that guildwars1 was able to build or maintain its earnings throughout its life(keep in mind gw was primarily box sales), whereas Gw2 has been downhill since release.
GW1 decline basically occurs when they decide to put most resources to gw2, which makes sense.

basically, gw1 was able to maintain its intial playerbase, and even expand on it, whereas the first 2.5 years of gw2 show a fairly consistent decrease.

Now, you are right, gw2 has earned more than gw1 by far, but if you are talking about maintaining/increasing earnings(and probably playerbase) GW2 was failing.

now, with the expansion coming out, that may change, but that remains to be seen. I personally believe they waited too long, and wont have enough in this expansion to go back to initial sales numbers, or beat it, like they did with gw1, but they will probably do pretty well.

Indeed. Exactly my point.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

Where did ‘they’ say their model was completely grind free?

If you define different smaller farms as a grind (that depends on the person) it could be less grind and smaller junks of grind but nowhere did I see anybody say their model would dissolve all grind in the game for everybody completely.

And ANet never said their game was completely grindless either, yet . . .

If you define anything with RNG as grind I don’t think you can completely remove grind (while again that depends on how you define it. Like somebody else stated here. An item with a drop-change of 75% is rarely considered a grind while it still is RNG) but reduce it and make smaller chunks of different farms of it and combine it more with non-grindy ways to get rewards.

Which you keep saying, but you offer no ideas of how it would work other than “it just would”. In fact, I seem to recall you also said it wasn’t your job to work anymore on it other than to offer a vague idea.

As good an idea as it looks, maybe it’s just another one of those which doesn’t work out when introduced to players. I mean it’s not like there’s a shortage
of things which look fun but really don’t work that way when put to the test . . .

I explained how it worked (in short again, give a direct way to work towards your item instead of the never ending currency grind) and I said I was detailed enough giving multiple examples. You were talking about how the developers would need to work it out into details and I said that was indeed a task for them, not for me.

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

~

So GW1 had a steady player-base while GW2 is always declining? Got any data to back that up? Because the actual data we do have tells a different story:

This is a graph of GW1 sales:
[img]http://images.mmorpg.com/features/9427/images/GW2-Feb23-1.jpg[/img]

and this is a graph of GW2 sales:
[img]http://images.mmorpg.com/features/9427/images/GW2-Feb23-2.jpg[/img]

As you can very clearly see from the graphs, the worst point in GW2 history (Q4 2014) had more income than the BEST point in GW1 history (Q4 2006)

Yes GW2 has a problem with sales. GW2 has a very steady income, with the big spike at release and another possible spike when HoT is released, but otherwise the game is very stable when it comes to income.

Maybe when you are talking about a steady decline in income you were watching the GW1 data and not the GW2 data? Because the data suggest otherwise. I’d love to see where you get your info, besides “that’s what I think” which is where you are basing everything. Well what you think and reality are different.

According to you, a game that at it’s lowest point outperforms GW1 is going to “die” some day soon? I don’t think that makes any kind of sense. I guess GW1 was always a second-rank MMO to you, if at it’s best couldn’t perform better than how GW2 is performing now….

Yes I have that data, in fact it’s the same as you have. You notice how GW1 managed to on average stay on the same level for its life-spawn (yes after Anet shifted focus to GW2 it obviously dropped but if you don’t mind I do not use that part into consideration. If you would do that you don’t know how to use statistics).

Let’s start with noting that the total income is completely irrelevant. GW2 is a much bigger game with much bigger exposer and also a bigger team. To compare the two I indeed use these two graphs and use the initial sales (the spike in both graphs) as 100%. That’s how you compare the two eliminating the fact that one project is much bigger than the other. Next thing you do is taking the ‘life-spawn’, in my case that means ‘during the time the game is fully supported’ and you can also use that as 100% (while a little harder because GW1 was only supported for about 2 years until they shifted their focus to GW2).

Then you look at GW2 sales and there is the drop after initial sales but more important also after that it keeps going down. A little harder to see in your graph (because the initial spike / drop makes the scale not very detailed) but basically every quarter (not counting Q4 quarters) it dropped a little more.

When you talk about a steady decline in income with GW1 you are literally fooling yourself, likely watching to the numbers after Anet shifted focus to GW2. Because looking at the time that GW1 was still fully supported the income stayed at about 100% (100% being the initial sale spike).

I can’t help it if you don’t know how to read the data available to you, but this is what it shows.

I also did never say the game would die. I did say I think there was also some irreversible damage done, something we will not see until the HoT release as the irreversible damage is having scared people away who won’t come back / created a lesser name for itself. I can also explain how I think (yes that is a think) will be visible with the release of HoT. You notice how every expansion (or campaign) for GW1 generates about the same amount of income as the initial sale. That is exactly how GW1 manage to keep that ‘steady’ income over its life spawn (again that being for the time the game was fully supported). So I expect that HoT will obviously be reason for another spike in GW2 but that it will not be around the same height as its original spike (like was the case with GW1). I expect it to not be higher then maybe 75% of the initial spike. But here you are right, this is what I think, the rest that I said (about income dropping in GW2 vs being more steady in GW1) was based on the numbers you show here.

And then the dying part. I did not say that, I said that I do think that IF the game would stay as grindy and they would scare people away again with this grind in HoT. (That is an IF, if I was 100% convinced that would happen I would not be in this forum taking about it. I do hope Anet does take this problem serious and so does something about it) then I expect that about half a year after HoT the game will likely get the status of one of those many “was a nice MMO once, but not something people suggest to each other or talk about. While still having some loyal player-base”. The best way you would notice that would be the size of the development-team being deceased.

So everything I said about what is going on was simply based on numbers. All predictions I made where indeed things I think, as we don’t life in the future so don’t have those numbers yet.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Obtena.7952:

You argue grind is bad, but then argue for a different way to grind.

Yeah, that’s confused me a bit too. But I must bow to the superior intellect and/or not-insane one and decree there is no grind in their model, only “selective farming”.

Where did ‘they’ say their model was completely grind free?

If you define different smaller farms as a grind (that depends on the person) it could be less grind and smaller junks of grind but nowhere did I see anybody say their model would dissolve all grind in the game for everybody completely.

If you define anything with RNG as grind I don’t think you can completely remove grind (while again that depends on how you define it. Like somebody else stated here. An item with a drop-change of 75% is rarely considered a grind while it still is RNG) but reduce it and make smaller chunks of different farms of it and combine it more with non-grindy ways to get rewards.

Cyninja.2954:

Devata.6589:

~

~

“They were fluff,”
And while it seems this is completely not understandable for you.. in an MMORPG there are plenty of people who care more for that fluff that for some numbers.

“This game is Buy2play, they’re business model demands some kind of revenue. Optional and cosmetic items is their approach.”
Yeah Buy2Play indeed, but they moved more to a system you see with F2P game so cash-shop games. In a Buy2Play game you buy the content you play, not the items in that content. That is why I always bring up this thing (well now you do that). It’s that shift from truly B2P to cash-shop (F2P like model) that is indeed the core of this problem. Would they have focused on expansion instead to make their money, releasing an expansion a year there would be no need to take the fun out of cosmetics and make it one big boring grind.

Obviously from a monetize perspective it makes a little sense (when not thinking long-term). Create a game about cosmetics, get all those people who like cosmetics, promote your game as not being a grind (ah yeah no we mean grind for gear) to make sure you also get people who don’t like grind, then make those cosmetics a big boring grind and give people a way to buy out of their grind.

Well yeah you found the core of the problem we are talking about here.

So in the end, 2,5 years after release we are left with a game that is not for those who like cosmetics but mainly for those who like stats or are fine with grinding. Of course that is also undermining their complete business model. Sure their is still a group left they is fine with simply buying what they want but the big question is if that group is big enough.

“I get more and more the feeling this game really isn’t for you.”
If it comes to the cosmetics parts no it isn’t indeed. Funny thing is, this game all being about cosmetics it should be.. Now you obviously not caring so much about cosmetics you can wonder if it should have been your game.

And yes I do play those games once in a while simply for the joy of hunting down those items. Something GW2 should have offered but doesn’t. Also it’s not about something being ‘for free’. I don’t mind buying an expansion a year. I was prepared to have spend more money on GW2 then I did, simply because I do not buy gems but was willing to buy expansions (on a yearly base), even collector editions. So it has nothing to do with expecting something for free. It simply has to do with fun.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Cyninja.2954:

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did. The fact it’s subjective is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault though. Their definition is pretty crafty that way. It’s basically saying “If you choose to not play the game in a way that’s not boring to you, it’s not a grind”. Brilliant IMO.

Anet simply provide many different ways for players to enjoy themselves that reward play to get gear, even ascended. It’s, in essence, what a sandbox MMO allows you to do.

What I consider fun / not boring it working directly towards items, doing task that belong to the items (Like getting a dragons head for.. well killing that dragon).. Hunting down items. Not grinding gold to buy them.

Them my conclusion is that there is very little reason for you to enjoy this game; you’re issue isn’t about grind. I’ve already pointed this out to you many times. You’re not actually against grind, just the method you get rewards.

This. I think most people don’t understand what grind is. Anet never said there would be no grind, they said there would be no grind due to power creep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep). Same as in GW1. Now you might object and think other things like gathering gold etc. to get skins, legendarys etc. constitutes grind, but none of those items are required but optional goals. On top of that there are multiple ways to aquire/reach said items/goals.

Here’s an example of what would not work in most other MMO’s in the market right now which works in GW2: take a year break and come back with no loss in character power. (I actually did that and came back 3 weeks ago due to HoT hype). My characters level of power remained the absolute same as 1 year ago since there was no gear depreciation. Try doing that in just about any other MMO and you’ll be in for a suprise.

Is there grind in GW2? Yes. Is there powercreep that requires constant grind to “keep up”? No. (minor gated content in fractals due to agony, but getting the needed ar is dirt easy nowadays).

Doing new or higher level content is also optional.

That’s a different level of ‘needs’ than the option to craft ascended gear. The fulfillment from playing the game is a different level than the fulfillment of obtaining something from playing the game. Therefore, your comparison is not sensible.

That totally depends on the player. There are plenty people who care more for cosmetics then for doing the highest level dungeons (that they them maybe would need the best gear for).

So for them the ‘need’ or ‘fulfillment’ is not in playing that content but in getting those cosmetics.

You don’t understand what I said. The kind of need that playing the game fulfills is different than the kind of need that is fulfilled when you obtain some gear while playing the game. That’s important to recognize if you want to appear intelligent when making comparisons between different, optional activities. Bottom line, you can only compare within the same level of needs fulfillment. Few people understand this.

The need to play is not at the same level as the need to obtain gear because obtaining gear depends on someone already fulfilling their need to play. Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, go have a look and understand how it applies to this situation.

“Bottom line, you can only compare within the same level of needs fulfillment. Few people understand this.” It seems like you fail to understand that this ‘needs fulfillment’ is personal.

“The need to play is not at the same level as the need to obtain gear” you see this for example. What is playing, but lets keep it at doing some higher level dungeons (as that is what is usually locked out by gear).

For you doing that dungeon might be on a higher level. Another person however might not give a kitten thing about that dungeon but is all bout getting that gear or cosmetic. So for him that dungeon is on a lower lever while those items are on a higher level. Even if there would be some item locked behind that dungeon he still cares more for the item then for the dungeon.

Just because you find the one more interesting does not mean its on some universal higher level.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Maybe but if there are to many of ‘me’ it will in the end mainly be ‘their’ loss.

OK, but that’s neither here nor there; it’s an empty threat because Anet knows better than anyone about how their choices to develop the game affect customer retention, acquisition rates, etc… They know better than any of us. Arguments about ‘losing customers’ have no basis in facts. These scare tactics and fear-mongering are laughable, especially if you’re the person holding the data.

Ah this again. I did hear the same from people defending the temporary content in the threads about that. Eventually also Anet had to come back on that.

Also Anet can be wrong or blinded by some things. And the data does show income only going down while the Living Story was supposed to keep it steady. Another thing where it looks like Anet was wrong while again enough people on the forums stated from the beginning the LS would not be able to hold customers.

No, Anet is not some oracle that is all seeing.

Cyninja.2954:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did, but it is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault.

I did not speak of fault. I merely pointed out that by ANets own definition there is grind involved in the acquisition of ascended gear.

Now that you mention fault:

Anet defined grind as boring repetition. Anet knew that some people would find crafting to be boring and repetitive. Anet chose to implement something that they knew fit their own definition of grind. Fault might be a poor choice of words because it implies something wrong, but responsibility fits.

Now, if your Devata, you want direct rewards. That would address the crafting with something that is most definitely identified as grindy … locking specific rewards behind repeated content.

Lol, not when implemented correctly. In WoW crafting was one of my main things I did (next to hunting down items). The reason is that the mats you needed never where a big grind. Go to some place and farm it for a few min and you got it. Not comparable with how it works in GW2.

The work usually was getting the recipe or simply leveling up, but with the craft I liked (engineering) also that was not a grind because ever level there was another new fun / cosmetic item you could make. Meaning you always where working towards your next goal (some item). So no, there is no need for crafting to be a boring grind.

You are to much trapped in the way things work in GW2 it seems.

Your and my experience of WoW grind must have been a very different one. Take off the rose tinted glasses. The grind in WoW was just as bad if not worse crafting wise. Go some where and you had you materials after a couple of minutes? More like fly (ride for the vanilla players) for multiple hours hunting shared material nodes to craft useless items just to increase your crafting skill.

There is also one of the biggest differences. WoW crafting was primarily a tool to get to max crafting level for the next expansion to craft those 1-2 items that became obsolete 2 months into the expansion. In GW2 crafting actually provides items required in the ingame economy, big difference balance wise.

Getting to the place indeed always took time while I don’t think that is considered grinding (nor do I have a problem with that, it makes the world feel bigger). And yes half a hour was usually enough to get the mats you needed for the next item you where working on. (No need to grind for gold multiple hours to buy the mats you need like in GW2)

Then crafting useless items.. well that is likely true for some crafts (that I did not like those) but for the fun crafts that isn’t true.. Well considering I did not see cosmetics as useless.

The second thing on the list you could create with engineering was dynamite what was already fun to fool around with. Then a bomb, then better dynamite then a mini, then a target dummy, then other types of dynamite, then fireworks, then some strange toys, then companions that would heal you, then exploding sheeps.. and so on and so on. No grind in that, it was like being a boy in a candy shop getting from the one candy to the next. There was never a lot of leveling between those items.

Now that is exactly what we should see in a ‘casual’, ‘cosmetic’ focused game like GW2 for it to be a real big success imho. And of course the hunt for that sort of things.

“WoW crafting was primarily a tool to get to max crafting” Lol, no I did it to get the next item.. now in GW2 crafting is useless until level 400 or 500. Are you sure you are not mixing up some things?

“or the next expansion to craft those 1-2 items that became obsolete 2 months into the expansion.” Well like in the example, it where not 1 or 2 items and the nice thing about toys and cosmetics is that they do not get obsolete in the next expansion.

I completely get where you are coming from, don’t get me wrong.

You are the type of person who wants the best gear / stats, maybe also wants to do the hardest dungeon. Me on the other hand, I have no problem with doing the hardest dungeon but don’t care for gear and if that locks me out of that dungeon so be it, for me those cosmetics are a huge part of the game.

So from your perspective I can completely understand you love how GW2 is not a grind for you and I can understand how WoW was grind for you. But for people who like cosmetics and the hunt for cosmetics it’s just the other way around.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Cyninja.2954:

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did. The fact it’s subjective is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault though. Their definition is pretty crafty that way. It’s basically saying “If you choose to not play the game in a way that’s not boring to you, it’s not a grind”. Brilliant IMO.

Anet simply provide many different ways for players to enjoy themselves that reward play to get gear, even ascended. It’s, in essence, what a sandbox MMO allows you to do.

What I consider fun / not boring it working directly towards items, doing task that belong to the items (Like getting a dragons head for.. well killing that dragon).. Hunting down items. Not grinding gold to buy them.

Them my conclusion is that there is very little reason for you to enjoy this game; you’re issue isn’t about grind. I’ve already pointed this out to you many times. You’re not actually against grind, just the method you get rewards.

This. I think most people don’t understand what grind is. Anet never said there would be no grind, they said there would be no grind due to power creep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_creep). Same as in GW1. Now you might object and think other things like gathering gold etc. to get skins, legendarys etc. constitutes grind, but none of those items are required but optional goals. On top of that there are multiple ways to aquire/reach said items/goals.

Here’s an example of what would not work in most other MMO’s in the market right now which works in GW2: take a year break and come back with no loss in character power. (I actually did that and came back 3 weeks ago due to HoT hype). My characters level of power remained the absolute same as 1 year ago since there was no gear depreciation. Try doing that in just about any other MMO and you’ll be in for a suprise.

Is there grind in GW2? Yes. Is there powercreep that requires constant grind to “keep up”? No. (minor gated content in fractals due to agony, but getting the needed ar is dirt easy nowadays).

Doing new or higher level content is also optional.

That’s a different level of ‘needs’ than the option to craft ascended gear. The fulfillment from playing the game is a different level than the fulfillment of obtaining something from playing the game. Therefore, your comparison is not sensible.

That totally depends on the player. There are plenty people who care more for cosmetics then for doing the highest level dungeons (that they them maybe would need the best gear for).

So for them the ‘need’ or ‘fulfillment’ is not in playing that content but in getting those cosmetics.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did, but it is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault.

I did not speak of fault. I merely pointed out that by ANets own definition there is grind involved in the acquisition of ascended gear.

Now that you mention fault:

Anet defined grind as boring repetition. Anet knew that some people would find crafting to be boring and repetitive. Anet chose to implement something that they knew fit their own definition of grind. Fault might be a poor choice of words because it implies something wrong, but responsibility fits.

Now, if your Devata, you want direct rewards. That would address the crafting with something that is most definitely identified as grindy … locking specific rewards behind repeated content.

Lol, not when implemented correctly.

Sure, and if this was a purely academic discussion, that would be correct. We can imagine all the ‘perfect’ ways to have anything we want. They aren’t relevant when it actually comes down to considerations to implement them. The reality is that assuming Anet even agrees with any of this stuff you say, they aren’t going to ask you how it should be implemented; they are going to do it their way and unlikely to do it ‘correctly’ according to what you think. This is where the rubber hit the road.

Maybe but if there are to many of ‘me’ it will in the end mainly be ‘their’ loss.

Obtena.7952:

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did, but it is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault.

I did not speak of fault. I merely pointed out that by ANets own definition there is grind involved in the acquisition of ascended gear.

Now that you mention fault:

Anet defined grind as boring repetition. Anet knew that some people would find crafting to be boring and repetitive. Anet chose to implement something that they knew fit their own definition of grind. Fault might be a poor choice of words because it implies something wrong, but responsibility fits.

Now, if your Devata, you want direct rewards. That would address the crafting with something that is most definitely identified as grindy … locking specific rewards behind repeated content.

Lol, not when implemented correctly. In WoW crafting was one of my main things I did (next to hunting down items). The reason is that the mats you needed never where a big grind. Go to some place and farm it for a few min and you got it. Not comparable with how it works in GW2.

The work usually was getting the recipe or simply leveling up, but with the craft I liked (engineering) also that was not a grind because ever level there was another new fun / cosmetic item you could make. Meaning you always where working towards your next goal (some item). So no, there is no need for crafting to be a boring grind.

You are to much trapped in the way things work in GW2 it seems.

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

Devata i mainly objected to the “better” statement in your post bigger maybe better not in my opinion and I shared why

Well there is a reason I said “better / bigger”. Just depends how you define the word I guess thats exactly why I put it that way.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did. The fact it’s subjective is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault though. Their definition is pretty crafty that way. It’s basically saying “If you choose to not play the game in a way that’s not boring to you, it’s not a grind”. Brilliant IMO.

Anet simply provide many different ways for players to enjoy themselves that reward play to get gear, even ascended. It’s, in essence, what a sandbox MMO allows you to do.

What I consider fun / not boring it working directly towards items, doing task that belong to the items (Like getting a dragons head for.. well killing that dragon).. Hunting down items. Not grinding gold to buy them.

Them my conclusion is that there is very little reason for you to enjoy this game; you’re issue isn’t about grind. I’ve already pointed this out to you many times. You’re not actually against grind, just the method you get rewards.

I like WvW (well it gets a little boring after a while, but HoT might give it some new life), I like the guild, guild-missions and hope guild-halls will be implemented in a good way. So there are things else I would have left already.

But yes, if it comes to the core of this game, cosmetics, then there is little fun for me as a boring brainless never-ending currency grind is not my thing.

And yes it’s the reward system that is my problem. I prefer an interesting hunt as reward system over a grindy system. Grind is always linked to the reward system, and not in a weak way.

Obtena.7952:

I didn’t say you did. The fact it’s subjective is why anything that is a grind is not Anet’s fault though. Their definition is pretty crafty that way. It’s basically saying “If you choose to not play the game in a way that’s not boring to you, it’s not a grind”. Brilliant IMO.

Anet simply provide many different ways for players to enjoy themselves that reward play to get gear, even ascended. It’s, in essence, what a sandbox MMO allows you to do.

What I consider fun / not boring it working directly towards items, doing task that belong to the items (Like getting a dragons head for.. well killing that dragon).. Hunting down items. Not grinding gold to buy them.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

I think they already did some irreversible damage but HoT will imho be the last possibility to get a comfortable status that put and keeps it up with the better / bigger MMO’s.

Yes yes yes , we have heard the doomslayers 3 years now … thanks you for your contribution :P

A WIld Prophet appears !

Before making comments , you have to educate yourself
Like that in the previous wow exmpasnion 12 million bought the x-pack and 1 year later they had 6,7 million subs .
So ppl come and go as they please .
So ‘’wild population swings’’ exists , but you simply closes your ears

Simply … if you dont know some basic ’’thngs’’/informations …. you can ask us …

Now … truly smart ppl can play multiply video gameo games …. while we are stuck with the ‘’other kind’’ in the forums :P

Well if you take the WoW example. Sure they go up and down, but over the 10 years total they did manage to keep up a big player-base.

GW1 was also able to keep a steady player-base over it’s life-spawn GW2 on the other hand has seem a drop ever since release (in income at least).

About people talking about a doomsday for 3 years. Personally I always looked at it for the long-term (2-5 / 3 years) because GW2 simply had a good core so has a good momentum. With HoT coming in this period I would add another half year to that (3,5 year), but not in the dooms-day scenario that it would be completely dead after that (IF they would not fix some of these core problems like the grind) but that it simply would become some second rank MMO while at the moment I think it is still a first rank MMO. However also now it’s not as popular as it could have been imho.

While I must also say Anet is very good at preventing a real drop in players to happen. Not so much with the LS but with the right solution just in time. For example when people got tired pretty soon after release Fractals was a good way to solve that. Then the temporary content of the LS was a real thread to the game and also that got solved imo just in time to prevent to many people getting burned out by that. Then now somewhere between the 2,5 and 3 years they come with the expansion. So who knows what they come with 5 / 6 months after release, maybe something that solves this grind or at least puts enough other things in the game to keep people busy with that moving away from the cosmetics as their focus point.

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

Devata.6589:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

~

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“You’re making it out like GW2 is in dire straights due to the amount of people it’s lost” no am not, but the game has been losing income (and so likely players) quarter after quarter and if it keeps doing that the game will get the status I talked about. That is not the same as being in dire straights but it is not what it could have been.

“Yes, game design plays an important role in burn out. However, so does a person’s ability to control themself.”
Yeah, but the person’s ability to control themselves is not relevant for the thread as that is not something we can do about, but Anet can do something about the game design. Besides, even if they can that does not mean the game is fine. I would love those cosmetics but I refuse to do some boring brainless grind so I guess I do have that control, but that does not mean I do miss that hunt leaving me with far less to do that there could be.

“This game is designed so you can put it down, and come back whenever you like” In what way. Again this is true if you talk about stats but not when we talk about cosmetics, you only will get further behind.

“Except that once again, you’re assuming doom and gloom” Maybe we have another definition of doom or different expectation what this game could have been. But I don’t think it’s doomed as in that the servers would shut down. I do think it might get into a state far from what it could have been. I think they already did some irreversible damage but HoT will imho be the last possibility to get a comfortable status that put and keeps it up with the better / bigger MMO’s.

first of all could you add an extra linebreak inbetween your replies and the quotes of who you are respoinding to your posts are difficult to read

i take exception to the last part and i don’t play many mmo’s anymore other than GW2 can’t afford a subsription and i like the designs and gameplay of it better than the other f2p one i had been playing

and the thing that sets gw2 apart is a absolutely no advancing otherwise vertical gear grind for me i can do everything but high level fractals without ascended armor / weapons i have a good guild so i can get ascended amulets/accesorries and rings fairly easily ( rings take fractals but you can do a 1-9 fractal and get a pristine relic without any other ascended gear)

I played vanilla WoW and thinking back that was an awful gear grind 40 people raids meant 1 waiting for the specific item that i needed (hunter gear) to drop and then rolling against the 4+ other hunters in the raid if it dropped at all

now my guild back then was quite transient so the 40 people rotated a bunch so i probably would have had more luck if it wasn’t

but i NEVER want to have to go through something like that again

my point is i don’t know of any other mmo where you don’t have to do that or something similar to get end game gear other than GW2 you can do a bunch of different content to get ascended pieces or just logging in (laurels) so no it isn’t a grind to me as you can get the stuff you need doing other things (slower yes) but you still make progress

I am not completely sure what part you do not agree with? I did never suggest we should have a gear grind or anything like that.

About the grind in WoW vs GW2. What I also said many times it really depends on your preferred game-play. I play WoW as well but never had a problem with grind there, simply because I care for cosmetics and not for stats. Cosmetics and other fun items there are not a big grind but most have all their own fun way of hunting them down. Getting the best gear there might be a grind.

In GW2 it’s just the other way around. However at the same time GW2 is all build around cosmetics, so that makes it imo even worse. Now if you as player prefer stats (as is, getting the gear to do the highest level content) yes I completely understand that you might not consider GW2 to be a grind.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

~

“They have clarified (repeatedly) what they meant by no grind, and cosmetics were not it.” They clarified that once 2,5 year after release. That does not change the fact that when they did promote the game at release, by talking about a no-grind-philosophy they created / attacked a player base that disliked grind. And that is even true now that they did clarify that on this forum as by far most people will not read that one thread where Colin clarified this.

“It’s about hunting different looks you want” Indeed and here you have my point. It’s this people it attracts, those who like to hunt (not grind) different looks and cosmetics. But the hunt does not exist for most of these items in the game, there is a currency-grind instead.

“You already know that I don’t necessarily agree with that design decision either, but that’s the route they chose to go.” And that is the ‘mistake’ (some think it’s a mistake, some don’t) we are talking about. It’s something they can change.

“honestly, I’d much prefer a mini or an armor skin in the gem store, which I can “grind gold” to earn instead of having something like zerker stats only available via the gem store.” Best would both not have it, personally I would rather have it the other way around as I do care for cosmetics but don’t care for stats. That just depends on your preferred game-play and this brings us back to the second paragraph. The game being about cosmetics and exactly that part being the grind.

“You’re making it out like GW2 is in dire straights due to the amount of people it’s lost” no am not, but the game has been losing income (and so likely players) quarter after quarter and if it keeps doing that the game will get the status I talked about. That is not the same as being in dire straights but it is not what it could have been.

“Yes, game design plays an important role in burn out. However, so does a person’s ability to control themself.”
Yeah, but the person’s ability to control themselves is not relevant for the thread as that is not something we can do about, but Anet can do something about the game design. Besides, even if they can that does not mean the game is fine. I would love those cosmetics but I refuse to do some boring brainless grind so I guess I do have that control, but that does not mean I do miss that hunt leaving me with far less to do that there could be.

“This game is designed so you can put it down, and come back whenever you like” In what way. Again this is true if you talk about stats but not when we talk about cosmetics, you only will get further behind.

“Except that once again, you’re assuming doom and gloom” Maybe we have another definition of doom or different expectation what this game could have been. But I don’t think it’s doomed as in that the servers would shut down. I do think it might get into a state far from what it could have been. I think they already did some irreversible damage but HoT will imho be the last possibility to get a comfortable status that put and keeps it up with the better / bigger MMO’s.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Devata.6589:

~

I won’t disagree that grind contributes; however, as we’ve seen repeatedly in this thread the definition of ‘grind’ varies (sometimes drastically) from person to person. So how much or how little it contributes will vary from person to person.

As for people returning, sometimes life happens. People outgrow games. They find others they like better. They change jobs and don’t have time to play. Etc, Etc. There are a million reasons why people don’t come back which really having nothing to really do with the game itself. Thus, the game loses people. By their very nature, games (as with all hobbies) fight a war of attrition in their fight to survive. Unfortunately it is a losing battle. Eventually it will come to an end. It might not be tomorrow. It might not be 10 years from now, but eventually it will.

When people feel working towards their goals (no matter if it are cosmetics or stats) is boring they simply will consider the content not good. If you leave with a bad feeling then you are less likely to return.

A lot of people get “bored” (read: burned out) simply because they treat the game like a job instead of like a game. They burn themselves out, and then they force themselves to continue for whatever reasons, which then yeah, that leaves a bad taste in their mouth when they finally decide they need a break. That’s not the game’s fault, and that’s more than just ‘being bored.’ A lot of what people have been talking about isn’t being bored. It’s being burnt out and not walking away, which yes, at that point it discourages people from returning. However, they are creating that negativity themselves because they just don’t seem to know how to stop and walk away.

For those that do just walk away when they get bored, that negativity doesn’t exist. When they come back it’s more of a ‘hey, haven’t done this in a while, let’s give it a try.’ Sometimes they find themselves refreshed and enjoy the play again, sometimes not.

I do think many will return for HoT but I do also think that if they get bored soon again with that as well (because of the same type of grind that made them go away the first time) most will not come back for the second expansion.

I agree, it is likely that many will return for HoT. Of those, many of them will consume the content as quickly as possible, and then whine they are bored and leave. Others will spend a little more time, decide they are bored, and leave as well. Others still will play it at a more leisurely pace and completely not understand wtf those first tow groups are talking about because they aren’t bored in the least. And of course, there will be rainbow of player types between just those 3 examples that I can’t even begin to address all of them.

And some will come, hate it immediately, and throw tantrums that they want it to be something else entirely

Not. All. Games. Are. For. All. People.

It is that simple.

You seem to forget a few things that might make it an even bigger issue for GW2. The game was promoted with a no-grind-philosophy and it’s all about cosmetics. So you would expect it to especially attract people who like cosmetics and who do not like grinding. However in reality there is a lot of grind (while indeed this is different per person) and especially for cosmetics there is a big grind.

“As for people returning, sometimes life happens. People outgrow games.” Yeah, obviously I was not talking about those people. The examples you give here are true for any game but not any game loses so many people that it becomes a second rank game and GW2 does not have to be one of those who does but if it does not seriously looks at the reasons for people to leave (those that Anet can do something about) then it might become one of those games.

“Eventually it will come to an end.” Just as the people you referred to also this is not what we talk about here. Nobody here suggest that heir idea’s would mean the game will life on forever. Please stay within the context of the discussion.

“A lot of people get “bored” (read: burned out) simply because they treat the game like a job instead of like a game.” And the way a game is designed can increase or decrease this. Eventually it also does not matter if they do it themselves or not, it’s not good for the game.

“Not. All. Games. Are. For. All. People.” And if your game it not it for to many people it’s a problem for the game.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Devata.6589:

@ Azhure & Just a flesh wound

Why? You guys want to demonstrate the state of the game if people get bored of the grind after the release of HoT and leave again within half a year? Personally I don’t think the game will then be completely dead, but it will get the status of a second rang MMO that could have done so much better but didn’t. A memory for many gamers. Instead of one of the serious alternatives / choices there are for MMORG gamers.

Anyway, as loyal players you should try to add something better to the suggestion then a picture that really, If you care for the game, even if you would disagree. You seem to do care for the thread because you are willing to spend time in it.

Grind or no grind, people always get bored eventually. Some sooner, some later. Instead of complaining about it, the better option is just to take a break. It’s healthy. Then when new content comes out, they return refreshed and ready to play… for however long until they get bored again. That’s just how life goes. Even people that don’t “grind” get bored and need a change of pace. That’s the nature of the beast.

Sure, but grind can definitely contribute to that, and them returning is not as naturally as you seem to think (else no game would ever really lose people when it had a good release). Also I think the type of being bored you simply get over time even from content you like is different than when you get bored or burned out from grind 9or other negative reasons).. The difference is that with the one you just leave, while with the other you leave with bad taste in your mouth.

When people feel working towards their goals (no matter if it are cosmetics or stats) is boring they simply will consider the content not good. If you leave with a bad feeling then you are less likely to return.

I do think many will return for HoT but I do also think that if they get bored soon again with that as well (because of the same type of grind that made them go away the first time) most will not come back for the second expansion.

@ Azhure & Just a flesh wound

Why? You guys want to demonstrate the state of the game if people get bored of the grind after the release of HoT and leave again within half a year? Personally I don’t think the game will then be completely dead, but it will get the status of a second rang MMO that could have done so much better but didn’t. A memory for many gamers. Instead of one of the serious alternatives / choices there are for MMORG gamers.

Anyway, as loyal players you should try to add something better to the suggestion then a picture that really, If you care for the game, even if you would disagree. You seem to do care for the thread because you are willing to spend time in it.

Arkinos.7245:

GW2 is fundamentally a very traditional MMO.
Yes there is no trinity and we have a more active combat, but the systems that make people play GW2 are the same system that games like WoW use.

You cant just slap some sandbox on a game like GW2.

Eve works so well because the entire game is build to be a sandbox, on top of being a pure pvp game where pve really is just a means to an end for the majority of the community, rather than the primary content.

Every MMO is ultimately the same.

PvP or Grind.

It cannot work any other way because all MMOs need their customers to play a lot in order to make money, but cant possibly provide enough “fresh” content to prevent repetitive gameplay. Eve went for PvP, GW2 went for a mix but is mostly grind.

Well you could make it a sandpark (like ArcheAge) but it’s hard to do that when the complete core is not build for it. However I do feel it is what the game would need if Anet wanted to achieve what they said. A always changing world where player actions have a true impact to the world.

Sure Anet can destroy LA but does that really make live it changes all the time? It just changes in some patch, and all the influence players had so far has been some complains / suggestions in the forum and the vote in-game. For the rest there is not a lot a player does that really changes the world. Some even you complete simply starts over a little later.

So if they would really want to make this always changing world where the player has impact on the world then the only way to do it is to give it more sandbox elements.

1. Is basically the never ending gold grind in GW2. However grind like that only works for a while, eventually people will get bored by the grind or simply bored by nothing to do when they do not participate in the grind.

2. I am in favor of that one but not in the form of a living world but with yearly expansions. Then you can keep adding new quality content and place new rewards behind new content. At the same time you make money with the content so you can place the rewards behind it in stead of trying to make the money of the rewards by placing them in a cash-shop or behind a grind.

3. Sandbox is also a good way to do it indeed.

4. Number 4 is basically the same as 3, or a part of 3. The only difference is that with 4 the content you make is more like out of the game while with 3 it’s more in the game. I think I would prefer 3 for an MMORPG. 4 is more something for shooters imho (mods).

5. I think competitive play is also a good way. Make dungeons where two teams are competing with one another for example. I played W:ET many many times. I never counted it but many maps I must have done many many many times and I still would like to do it. It’s the challenge that keeps it interesting, and while you can learn to tackle AI (so the challenge ends at some point) when playing against players it will stay fun every time.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

“The point is, the game is successful as it is " The point is, that the game has been getting less and less income since release (Something that the LS approach was supposed to prevent in the first place. An approach many people including me said would not work (turns out they were right)).

Hahaha !

When i told you that Boxxes-Sold and Gem Store Items are showned COMBINED in the 4-month Income report , and because ppl have already bought the Boxxes > they spent only money in the Gem Stores > thus they gain less money > you seemed understand it …

> But now you predicted all that too ?
Like Crysis 2-3 ?

I really love you , you makes such lovely comments in the forums and infront of the Company :P

Devata.6589:

The HoT expansion will for sure increase the income and number of players but if they then start dropping again the same way as before the game will have a problem.

“and because ppl have already bought the Boxxes > they spent only money in the Gem Stores > thus they gain less money”

Even in WoW they have the problems
As a SOFTWARE ENGINNER you havent heard of the initial spike and decline in various games after the release ? :P

But i agree , as another Oracles (intuition guy myself) i share the same dream about that Vision !
:P

Now , if you excuse me i have to drop some frog legs in the soup :P

“and because ppl have already bought the Boxxes > they spent only money in the Gem Stores > thus they gain less money”

Yes, you are now only comparing the initial spike with the income right after it. But also the money made with the gem-store has been dropping ever since. I am not referring to that first drop. Ever since release the income has dropped, also long after the boost of the initial sale.

“the initial spike and decline in various games after the release?” I think you missed the part where Anet wanted to use the LS to prevent this.. well some drop you will always have but that drop has not stopped.

You do not need to be an oracle to make some correct prediction. Just look at the facts, combine that with some logic sense. People do that all the time.

You want to hear some more of my ‘oracle’ predictions that came true. I said P2P would not work for Rift and for TCoS. Again I was right. I mention these thing not to proof I am always right because I am not. I simply do it to show that simply because a big company says something it’s not always true. An argument or idea that you see popping up in many threads where somebody says something that go’s against what the company is doing. The company has the people who know everything about this, the company has all the numbers. Yeah all nice and still it’s possible they are wrong and the people on the forum right. Thats all I am saying here.

Not just me, many people didn’t believe the LS would be able to keep the game alive like expansions could, but Anet seemed to believe in that for a long time. You can try to launch that claim away but it’s all over the forum and everybody who has been following the forums even a little bid over the years knows this to be true.

Here is an interesting small topic about it from back then: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Are-expansion-needed/first#post2963955

Photonman.6241:

Devata.6589:

The big question is why numbers drop. I think that’s because people get bored by the game because of a number of things, but the grind / reward system being one of the bigger reasons for that.

You’re probably right. It’s not the lack of end game, or the boring pve, or the lackluster content updates. It’s probably the fact that people don’t get that BiS armor right away.

“You’re probably right.”
Thanks for agreeing with me.

However,
“It’s probably the fact that people don’t get that BiS armor right away.” I never said that. So I will assume you agree with what I did say and this is your addition to that.

I do not really agree with your addition I have to say.

Vayne.8563:

@Devata

And yet I still liked Season 1 of the Living Story much more than I like Season 2 and I’d have preferred to remain with the temporary content. With an ever changing world that moves forward. With something to look forward to that’s different.

That was taken away with the removal of the Living Story Season 1. I still maintain that that was better and I’m surely not the only person who thinks Season 1 was more fun. Others have posted the same.

Anet has apparently decided that more people wanted repeatable permanent content over temporary ever changing content, and I’ve had to accept that that was their decision because I’m not the only one playing the game. If enough of the game changes to where I don’t like it, I’ll leave.

The point is, the game is successful as it is now and there’s no real guarantee the changes suggested will make it more successful, even if you’d like it better. Again, it is my belief that changes to the game made where I have to do specific content over and over to get stuff (like Silverwastes) will make the game less enjoyable FOR ME.

I assume that it’ll make the game more enjoyable for you. I like the freedom of pretty much playing where I want to get stuff and I dislike having to play specific content to get specific rewards.

To each their own, I suppose, but at the end of the day, Anet is going to go where they feel the numbers are. In the case of temporary content, they made that decision. If they feel your suggestions have value I’m sure they’ll take them on board. But it probably won’t make the game better for me.

“The point is, the game is successful as it is " The point is, that the game has been getting less and less income since release (Something that the LS approach was supposed to prevent in the first place. An approach many people including me said would not work (turns out they were right)).

The HoT expansion will for sure increase the income and number of players but if they then start dropping again the same way as before the game will have a problem.

The big question is why numbers drop. I think that’s because people get bored by the game because of a number of things, but the grind / reward system being one of the bigger reasons for that. And how the system works I blame to the cash-shop focus what is the reason why these things is what I talk so much about. (to much disliking to some people on the forum)

Now other people might see other reasons for the drop but the fact is that Anet will have to do something about that. That is best for Anet and for all players including you.

“I like the freedom of pretty much playing where I want to get stuff and I dislike having to play specific content to get specific rewards. " Luckily then that I left room for that in my suggestion.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

~

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I just said that those high level raids is what is considered the grind in that game. It’s true there are also other people grinding in WoW but your missing the point that a lot of people are there and playing the game without grinding. It’s not so much false logic as it was leaving out parts that seemed irrelevant. Anyway, yes there are more people grinding then only those doing those raids but the point was and stays that many people play who do not do it to grind. And no, it;s again something we do not have numbers for.

Right, we don’t know how many people grind or don’t grind. No one knows. So the whole argument that a lot of people are or aren’t going to leave because of grind or perceived grind (the same thing for all practical purposes), nor do we know how many people might leave if things were changed the way you want them. We don’t know. There’s no way to know.

You have a theory that what you want will be better. My theory is that there’s never going to be a good balance, because no matter what you do, a percentage of the fan base will be dissatisfied. It’s always a lose/lose situation.

Also without having exact numbers it’s just common sense to understand it’s a big group who dislikes grind. My suggestion do not change anything for the people who already like the game so not much reason for them to leave, but it will likely be a change that might hold people who dislike the grind in GW2. So it would a win / win situation. Don’t be so negative

Ah the old common sense argument. Given the number of games that attract people sololy on grind (candy corn crush, farmville), I’d say there’s more chance people stay with a game with grind in it than a game without it. That’s common sense to me.

Unfortunately your common sense tells you I like this so there must be enough people like me. That’s not really common sense. It’s just human nature to think that way.

I know that I’m not a typical gamer and most players aren’t like me. But a large group? How large?

Basically I think that if they made the game you wanted, the way you wanted it, there’d be less players long term. I can’t prove it, but that’s what I believe.

“Ah the old common sense argument.” Yeah because you try to almost everything in every discussion with “you don’t have the exact numbers”. Well in that way you could indeed dismiss everything, (whatever side you are on) but fact is that there is something like common sense. Can you remember the temporary content discussion? There you where also using that argument.

The people on the forum complaining where just a vocal minority, the people in the games complaining where also just a few, you didn’t hear any complains in your guild and we all did not have exact numbers. While using common sense everybody new there where many people who disliked that. Also Anet eventually did see that and changed it. So you telling that we don’t have a exact number does not add anything to the discussion, especially when you ignore common sense. So maybe this would then be a good time for you to stop doing that.

“Given the number of games that attract people sololy on grind (candy corn crush, farmville), I’d say there’s more chance people stay with a game with grind in it than a game without it. ” Not that you can compare those games to GW2 (Besides I did never play them so can’t say much about how grindy they are), did any of those games get promoted with some no-grind-philosophy? I do not think so. So yes, it’s common sense that if you promote a game with a no-grind-philosophy (something you don’t explain any further then that, until 2,5 years somewhere in a forum) that game attacks many people who dislike grinding.

“Basically I think that if they made the game you wanted, the way you wanted it, there’d be less players long term. I can’t prove it, but that’s what I believe.” So adding the ability to work directly towards the item (taking the same amount of time, allowing for the those who like to grind to do that as well) would scare away people. Strange, but if you believe so.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

But I won’t continue this debate about nothing.

You started the debate about nothing, neighbor.

And you also missed the last third – where I outlined I agree your idea has a valid start to it. I like the concept as a whole. But it needs refinement, and it needs to be looked at. It needs to be studied from other angles and points. Since you are a software engineer, you know this. I know you do.

More work needs to be done examining, at the first, the basis of your design and then working up from there. If you don’t want that, then it’ll be just as poorly constructed as the Trait revamp and NPE turned out. Poorly executed interesting ideas.

“But it needs refinement, and it needs to be looked at. ~ More work needs to be done examining” Sure, but the forum is not the place for that.

Here we simply make a suggestion. I suggested that there should be direct ways to work towards the items to decrease the grind and gave some examples of that, I even went as far as how to finance it as the suggestion would undermine the cash-shop focus. Other people came with some other idea’s, some more detailed, some less.

Those things combined should be enough for Anet to ask them-self the question if they do see this problem and so if they want to fix it, if they like the idea’s and how they could exactly implement it (That is the phase you talk about).

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

~

“And we have that now ” With some things yes, for the most of the items no.

The clock-tower had a one item that dropped once. I don’t think anybody said getting that item was a grind. Maybe you could grind the tower for candy corn but that is the in line with the currency grind (and candy corn was the Halloween currency) and has not much to do with my suggestion.

Now the farm part that I suggest (that you consider still a grind) we did see in the MC dungeon. One of the most popular dungeons in the game.. until they added it in fractals and without the reward. Maybe that should give you a clue.

“You are not seeing:
- The amount of work which must go into designing this.
- The amount of work which must go into developing this.
- The amount of work which must go into coding this.
- The number of places where a single bug can sink acquisition of one of these items. (e.g. “Sam”)
- Why people might consider it a step backwards to add redundant grind paths.
”
I am a software engineer. Yes I see them, I also know that placing an item (you already have) behind existing content / content you do build anyway, is not a very work intensive task or a task prone to bugs. In fact, it can be as simple as filling one additional record of data in your database when the design of you software is good.

“When you’re not bothering to think through your ideas before lazily calling them” I did think through them.. and it are not even so much my idea’s it is my suggestion for this game, they are being implemented in many other games.. very successfully.

“ “that adds numerous parallel grinds to the game” followed but “but there would not be any more grind going on” . . . is the height so far of you not paying attention to what you’re saying.”

I really love this statement. Especially the conclusion in correlation with the text. According to you I do not pay attention to what I say because, and then you quote me, I say “that adds numerous parallel grinds to the game” followed by “but there would not be any more grind going on”

The only very little, extremely small problem is that I did not say that, I only quoted somebody else saying that. You.. you said that. So if anybody is not paying attention to what he is saying himself well then that is you, and you proof it in the sentence where you try to imply that of me.

Really there is no point in further debating this with you. It’s not about the problem, it’s not about the grind, it’s not even semantics, it’s really a debate about nothing at this point. It’s like having a debate with somebody and you say something is true and then he says it false but at some then it turns out he defines false as true and true as false. You can’t debate like that.

When you have anything to say that adds to this discussion or something that would help the people that feel the game to be grindy and something that would help to hold the people that will return for HoT but did leave before because they considered the game to be boring because of it grind. Then I would love to hear it. But I won’t continue this debate about nothing.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

In the end, what is most important about the grind discussion is that if people experience grind, that will likely be one of the biggest reasons to start disliking a game, making people feel bored by a game.

Grind might be a good way to keep people busy for a while when you would have a lack of content but eventually people will simply get burned out or bored by the game. Then you can make a beautiful world, come with a lot of great QoL improvements, have an ongoing story, be very innovative, fix huge issues like temporary content, have great animations, have a great movement system and have a lot of potential. (All things than you could apply to GW2).

When you end up with a game that many people consider boring (because of grind) people will not like is and walk away from the game. That is the main problem of the grind and is also why Anet should do something about it.

Except for those people who claim to like to grind.

True, those will stay, they will have no problem with GW2. Luckily they would also not have a problem when you make the game so there is a direct (no or less grindy way) but also have the current grind way as an option.

The big question is how big is the other group and I think they are big enough for a game-company to want to have them as part of their player-base.

In fact I think it´s one of the biggest groups. You really think a game like WoW is popular because of all the people who like to do the highest level raids (that where the grind is in WoW)? I think that is only a very small group of the total player-base.

This is faulty logic.

You make a logical leap here with no evidence.

I agree that hard core raiders make up a small percentage of WoW’s playerbase. But I don’t agree the reason is because they like to grind and no one else did.

In fact, my experience is the opposite. I know a lot of people who love to grind that don’t want hard content. They want to wander around the world and gather stuff, kill a bunch of creatures and have a good time. They like to grind.

My wife likes to grind. It relaxes her. She gets into a rhythm and just does what she has to, whatever it is. And though she has raided in other games, she didn’t raid to grind. The grind she likes it repetitive thoughtless stuff that lets her zone out and relax.

I can assure you she’s not alone.

I just said that those high level raids is what is considered the grind in that game. It’s true there are also other people grinding in WoW but your missing the point that a lot of people are there and playing the game without grinding. It’s not so much false logic as it was leaving out parts that seemed irrelevant. Anyway, yes there are more people grinding then only those doing those raids but the point was and stays that many people play who do not do it to grind. And no, it;s again something we do not have numbers for.

Right, we don’t know how many people grind or don’t grind. No one knows. So the whole argument that a lot of people are or aren’t going to leave because of grind or perceived grind (the same thing for all practical purposes), nor do we know how many people might leave if things were changed the way you want them. We don’t know. There’s no way to know.

You have a theory that what you want will be better. My theory is that there’s never going to be a good balance, because no matter what you do, a percentage of the fan base will be dissatisfied. It’s always a lose/lose situation.

Also without having exact numbers it’s just common sense to understand it’s a big group who dislikes grind. My suggestion do not change anything for the people who already like the game so not much reason for them to leave, but it will likely be a change that might hold people who dislike the grind in GW2. So it would a win / win situation. Don’t be so negative

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

In the end, what is most important about the grind discussion is that if people experience grind, that will likely be one of the biggest reasons to start disliking a game, making people feel bored by a game.

Grind might be a good way to keep people busy for a while when you would have a lack of content but eventually people will simply get burned out or bored by the game. Then you can make a beautiful world, come with a lot of great QoL improvements, have an ongoing story, be very innovative, fix huge issues like temporary content, have great animations, have a great movement system and have a lot of potential. (All things than you could apply to GW2).

When you end up with a game that many people consider boring (because of grind) people will not like is and walk away from the game. That is the main problem of the grind and is also why Anet should do something about it.

Except for those people who claim to like to grind.

True, those will stay, they will have no problem with GW2. Luckily they would also not have a problem when you make the game so there is a direct (no or less grindy way) but also have the current grind way as an option.

The big question is how big is the other group and I think they are big enough for a game-company to want to have them as part of their player-base.

In fact I think it´s one of the biggest groups. You really think a game like WoW is popular because of all the people who like to do the highest level raids (that where the grind is in WoW)? I think that is only a very small group of the total player-base.

This is faulty logic.

You make a logical leap here with no evidence.

I agree that hard core raiders make up a small percentage of WoW’s playerbase. But I don’t agree the reason is because they like to grind and no one else did.

In fact, my experience is the opposite. I know a lot of people who love to grind that don’t want hard content. They want to wander around the world and gather stuff, kill a bunch of creatures and have a good time. They like to grind.

My wife likes to grind. It relaxes her. She gets into a rhythm and just does what she has to, whatever it is. And though she has raided in other games, she didn’t raid to grind. The grind she likes it repetitive thoughtless stuff that lets her zone out and relax.

I can assure you she’s not alone.

I just said that those high level raids is what is considered the grind in that game. It’s true there are also other people grinding in WoW but your missing the point that a lot of people are there and playing the game without grinding. It’s not so much false logic as it was leaving out parts that seemed irrelevant. Anyway, yes there are more people grinding then only those doing those raids but the point was and stays that many people play who do not do it to grind. And no, it;s again something we do not have numbers for.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

A few things to note here.

- Looking for a gamer perspective. If you care for a ‘optional’ item and there is grind to get it you will dislike it just as much as you would dislike it when having to grind for content.

That’s dependent on the player and it’s still their choice.

Devata.6589:

- The game was promoted and advertised with creating the game with a no-grind-philosophy.

… and it is according to Anet’s vision, if you decide to not grind for optional items

Devata.6589:

- Just to get the record strait, also optional cosmetic grind is define by Anet as grind.

Yes, they give you the option to grind or not. Player choice.

To be brutally honest here, people are simply not accepting responsibility for their choices. It’s not Anet’s job to ensure that people play correctly so they never grind. They simply provide the environment and they have made that environment so people can get things they want without disliking the game because of grinding … if they DECIDE to do so. People need to grow up a little.

The only valid point you bring to the discussion is a way to achieve rewards as a direct result of play instead of gold. Instead you bury your idea into why the game should haven’t grind, even though your idea is also, inherently grindy. Not smart.

“That’s dependent on the player and it’s still their choice. "
Thats what I say. But then we could ignore any grind including the one you talk about being ‘necessary’ grind because even that is choice.

" and it is according to Anet’s vision, if you decide to not grind for optional items"
Not when they where promoting that. This statement came 2,5 years after release. My point was that they at that moment (not 2,5 years later) attracted people who dislike grind.. any grind.

“Anet’s job to ensure that people play correctly so they never grind. They simply provide the environment and they have made that environment so people can get things they want without disliking the game because of grinding”

“Yes, they give you the option to grind or not. Player choice.” To get the item they only give the option to grind.

“people are simply not accepting responsibility for their choices. It’s not Anet’s job to ensure that people play correctly so they never grind. They simply provide the environment and they have made that environment so people can get things they want without disliking the game because of grinding”
Then they failed at that. When making the same choices and playing the same way in other games I did not feel any grind, I could work directly towards items without this big gold-grind for everything in the way.

So it’s strange to say grind is the peoples fault if they can do exactly the same (well, working towards an item) but then without the grind in another game but only have the grind option in GW2.

“The only valid point you bring to the discussion is a way to achieve rewards as a direct result of play instead of gold. Instead you bury your idea into why the game should haven’t grind, even though your idea is also, inherently grindy. Not smart.”

I did not say it shouldn’t have any grind, if people like to grind thats fine by me. As long as there is also a less or not grindy way to achive your goals. Also it’s the never ending gold grind and not having a direct way to get an item that is making the grind. The two are related. Sure I could also create a thread not talking about grind and simply suggest for a direct way but I simply joined a discussion about grind and continued it with this thread when the other one got closed. Also the direct way does not have to be grind or for parts at least can be less grindy then the big gold / currency grind.

But maybe at one point I will make a thread where I simply suggest for direct ways to get items.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

~

You are not doing 99 or 9999 ones. You are doing 1 task to get 1 reward in example of a quest.

“That’s so adorable to keep thinking with relation to RNG” As your hole reaction to me was only based on the RNG part of it.

“I’m at this point wanting you to acknowledge you are talking about substituting grind for grind ” But I’m not. At best there are parts of my suggestions (the rng part) that are smaller farms that some people still might consider grind.

“. I don’t see that as “superior”.” So making something more people like (or tolerate) is not superior to something less people tolerance according to you. That is fine, but then you seem to have a strange definition of superior I would think.

“Once more, a grind can still be something which is not repeated. Most people want to agree it’s when you repeat something. It can also be when you have to do stuff you don’t want to do, to get the rewards.” Not only do you have you own very different and strange definition for superior, this also seems to be the case for grind. Once more, while grind is personal for many people pretty much every body agrees it involves repetition.
When you are pretty much designing your own language it’s not really possible to have a discussion with you.

“I may only have to level grind once in a single-player RPG, but it’s still a grind.” Grinding is the way you achieve something (how do you get that 1 level) now what you achieve (that 1 level, or that 1 item). Again you seem to be using a strange language or applying incorrect ‘logic’.

“When you add parallel routes to something, you do not ignore all but one route when determining the amount of work which might need to be done.”
Woow, in this comment you only come up with strange definitions and wrong ‘logic’. So when you want to drive from A or B, in order to calculate the distance you count up all possible routes. That is what you are saying here.

“That adds numerous separate, parallel grinds to the game.” But there would not be any more grind going on. While again, what I suggest I do not see as grind, you do. So even this depends on how people personally would define grind.

“(And as I said before, if the Gold grind is allowed to remain, most people will stick with that due to versatility . . . if it is an option.) ” I think that is false but it’s a number we both don’t have.

“It’s also a hefty workload for the designers” Sure, having specific content is more work then not having it. Then again, much of the content already exist / gets build anyway and the reward could simply be added to it. When making a new area you could reduce the number of events and add some quest for them for example. They are building much of the content anyway.

“ I’m not talking about the current situation. I’m talking about your proposal ” And my suggestion always allowed for the current way (grinding gold) to also be there as an alternative for the direct way. This by suggestion a direct way to work towards items but it being fine of those items where not account-bound so the people who would prefer the grind could still do that. So you them missed a part of my proposal I guess.

“ to choose to grind there doesn’t need to be any more change ” Except that what you now define as second grind is in many cases not a grind or at the least a best a smaller farm vs the big gold grind in this game. Well like we did see previous in this comment, you see any task you don’t like as grind so by that logic I guess you are right. It just has nothing to do with reality anymore.