Guild Wars 2

Cuddy.6247:

Jelle.2807:

Just popping in to say I don’t mind the grind really. So long as it’s for marginal stat increase (ascended gear) or cosmetics, yeah ’s fine by me.

What I don’t like is excessive RNG. I would rather grind for something I know will, for example take me 20 hours to complete, rather than something random that’ll take an average of 15 hours, but might also take 50 hours if you’re unlucky. When effort does not match reward, things be unfair.
Looking at you precursors.

Yeah this has always kittened me off, and it’s why I liked Guild Wars more than Guild Wars 2. At least in Guild Wars, you had a really good chance of getting Dhuum’s Scythe if you ran UWSC for 4-6 months. Speedrun dungeons, WvW, PvP or even MF gambling for 4-6 months in this game…gives you no good chance at anything, really. It’s a crying shame that you can’t work for your rewards.

Part of the reason I went casual is I spent over a year speedrunning dungeons just to get Dusk to no avail. Money to buy Dusk was acquired and I still never saw a precursor. I spent a year trying. That just seems at a certain point to be unethical in the way they designed RNG. Hell, I still don’t have Sunrise to go with it because I can’t be bothered to buy Dawn or farm against the treadmill anymore. Much like the precursor hunt, though, if there were some sort of way for me to get a reward for my effort rather than banging my head against the wall praying to RNGesus, I will enjoy this game a lot more.

I’m thankful they’re finally coming to grips with replacing RNG with provisional grind.

This is a little strange statement. "Part of the reason I went casual is I spent over a year speedrunning dungeons just to get Dusk to no avail. Money to buy Dusk was acquired and I still never saw a precursor. ".

So if you love grind so much, what was then the problem? You grinded the gold? And the fact that it’s not possible to work directly towards the item you want (other then the gold-grind) is what I talk about all the time. These items for example do indeed drop but with such a extreme low drop-rate that you can’t work towards them anymore leaving grind (for gold) as the only real viable option to get them.

So what you say you dislike results in what you say you like. Reasonable drop-rates lets you also work towards an item. Just as putting items behind specific content does like chest, or putting them behind challenging content or in fun crafts. That are the types of things I am asking for. But would decrease the grind.

You say you are happy with more grind because that allows you to work towards something.. yes in the same was as it already does ‘grind gold, grind gold’ but at the same time you say you like the ‘change to grind’ because you dislike the current RNG system… that results in grind.

So what is it? You liked it that you had to grind gold for your legendary and want more of that? Or you dislike the grind and want less of it???

Cuddy.6247:

Obtena.7952:

Oh I know what he’s referring to. It’s awfully easy to make up stories about points on a graph. All the same thing over and over again. If such a change was so good for the game, Anet would have done it by now. The only thing we see is Anet reinforcing their position on this with craftable precursors in HoT … obviously they don’t agree with the OP or his cheerleading squad.

I agree, ANet’s taking a good route. The precursor hunt seems to be more in-line with more grind and less RNG, which exactly what this game needs more of. Accomplishments for your efforts and not dumb luck. As it sits, far too much depends on your luck in achieving any pecuniary significance. Pure, dumb, unadulterated luck.

Now you could explain this. At this moment getting a precursor mainly means, grind gold and buy it. There is no ‘doable’ RNG / more direct way to get a precursor.

With the new system you will need to do task and get collections. In addition they would make it easier to farm mats.

That seems to be less of a grind and more in the direction I ask for (a more direct way of working towards each other) then the current ‘grind gold’ system.

Sure, the precursor will be so extreme it probably still is a grind (and in fact I did say a few grinds for some very rare items would not be a problem, I guess the precursor is supposed to be this very rare thing) but nonetheless a more direct approach and smaller grind / split into smaller junks again more into the direction of what I am suggesting here.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

I did show how it would work out (in the previous topics) with numbers, calculations and comparing it with GW1’s numbers.

Yes, all made up from your own imagination of how it would work based on a completely different game. GG!

“all made up” vs “based on a completely different game.”. Yeah.. And that completely different game still is the game that pretty much made this game.

Obtena.7952:

Oh I know what he’s referring to. It’s awfully easy to make up stories about points on a graph. All the same thing over and over again. If such a change was so good for the game, Anet would have done it by now.

Yeah almost as easy as to dismiss it by saying “you can’t proof it would work”. And the “if it was good Anet would have done it” fits in the Anet knows everything, they did not do it so it can’t be good. What is of course false. Many companies (including Anet) made mistakes, sometime came back on them, sometimes not.

Jelle.2807:

Arguing the random average is fine if the distribution isn’t all over the place. With incredibly low drop chances you can be kitten sure it’s going to be all over the place. Guess how unreasonably low the droprate for the really the valuable stuff is.

I think you missed the part where I completely agreed with this part. Yeah when RNG is to extreme is also just bad and not better then a currency grind, in fact it would really result in a currency grind as that would then be the only viable option to get the item. That is also exactly how many items in GW2 that are available in the game are added.. with an extreme low-drop rate but usually also dropping from many places or from something that already gets grinded for gold.

It is what I said before about how if you make an item drop from one place you can have a higher drop-rate then when you drop it from many places (or from something that gets grinded anyway) in order to keep the same rarity. Drop 1 items from 1 place with a 1/100 drop-rate. To keep the same rarity when dropping in from 2 places (that have similar popularity) you will need a 1/200 drop-rate for the same rarity.

That is why I say, RNG would not be a problem if it’s doable RNG. Doable as not is so extreme as we indeed see with many of the items that do drop in GW2.

And once again, if you would make the items not account-bound your option to grind is still there.

Brother Grimm.5176:

All of this “armchair quarterbacking” is pointless…..Anet is going in the direction they think is both entertaining and profitable. Obviously not all players will agree with the “entertaining” choices and they have every right to discontinue use of the product.

I think Anet DOES listen to players about things that could be changed that would not greatly effect their overall economic strategy, but requests that would greatly effect the general end-game for every player are not even going to be commented on (and I can’t blame them for not poking at those embers).

Do what you want, there are plenty of MMOs out there and if this one isn’t something you enjoy any longer, move on.

As long as you keep items not being account-bound the option to brainlessly grind gold will stay there. So for there current player-base who make like that not much would have to change.

And yes, if it comes to cosmetic hunts I do go to other mmo’s and GW2 simply is not enjoyable for that, but that does not mean I could be and it should not be suggested. I do think the never-ending grind is what sucks much of the life out of this game and so changing it would improve the game a lot so I will suggest it.

Anet does not have to listen, I still may suggest.

Also Anet does seem to listen and I can’t imagine the developers want to make a game people play / grind while watching a movie on the other screen. So I think there is the possibility they will do something about it, in fact they have made some steps in the correct direction already. If I had completely no believe they could change it I would not be posting about it anymore. But I do completely understand why this is something they won’t change easily as it touches there complete business model.

(They basically sell a way out of the grind, so if there is no grind they need to start selling something else).

Obtena.7952:

Fair enough … then I’m going to apply the same standards to the guy QQing about too much grind and claiming it’s going to improve the game if it’s removed. He’s not reading any metrics and making correlations either, except those he has invented in his head to convince him it will make the game better. The difference is that I’m not claiming it would be better, it’s status quo and status quo ain’t bad in this case.

If that’s the logic you want to argue with, then it’s better the devil you know than the one you don’t, especially if Anet’s shareholders don’t seem to have a problem with it.

I did point out to different financial models and how they allowed for less (cosmetic) grind and could be more successful including all the possible numbers available, I could point to the fact that if it purely comes to alienating people there are changes that should not do that (as long as items are not account-bound the grind gold option is still there for those who like it), I could use the logical sense that if you make the hunt for items a more amusing game-play it would attract more people, I could point to the fact that many people complain about the grind and so clearly dislike it, I could point towards WoW that has a more amusing game-play as it comes to cosmetic hunt and is the (one of the) most popular MMO’s out there and in fact at some point in this or the previous threads I did all that.

But your right, I can never proof it would work the way I suggest. Then again, you can say that to everybody who makes any suggestion on the forum.

That shareholders are fine with it does not say anything. Shareholders where fine with Wildstar’s approach until it didn’t make them enough money (anymore), shareholders where fine with Tabula Rasa until it did not make the money they wanted, they where fine with AA initial approach and that of Final Fantasy XIV and that of TCoS and so on. It does say me anything that they are happy now.

Thing is, you accept many people grind and accept the game might help to push them in that direction. You even accept they might walk away because of that. Then why are you so against trying to do something about that?

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

I hope they don’t change course on many things, including this because whatever they are doing, it’s working quite well for them. I think it’s nonsense to make simple statements indicating if it’s bad for the game, it needs to be changed. It’s not bad for the game at all. It’s only bad for the people that can’t pull themselves away from it. The game actually thrives because of its concept appealing to its core players. Indicating it’s anything but is showing a lack of understanding what this game means from a business perspective.

I think it’s funny you mention HoT … we already know what big surprise we are going to get and it’s not rare drops from raids or anything close to it, In fact, precursors are craftable. That means more of the same of what we have now.

The changes would not have to alienate the people who like the current system. So I can’t see how it would be bad for them.

Of course you can’t, because you demonstrate time and again how you don’t understand the business impact these changes you want would have.

I did show how it would work out (in the previous topics) with numbers, calculations and comparing it with GW1’s numbers. And it showed that it was likely that yearly expansion would have earned Anet more money by now. A change I suggested because of the business impact these suggestions to prevent grind would have, as the cash-shop will always be a huge reason for grind and so there would be no or less place for it anymore.

You never know for sure what the (alternative) impact of anything would be as we don’t live in the parallel universe where this would be true, so we only have the numbers to go on. So at least from that perspective you are right. I have some numbers, some facts and some calculations but certainty nobody has, including Anet them self. But because of that same reason it’s also not a good defense in trying to dismiss anything.

That you did not like those numbers or did not get them, does not make them incorrect. I will not go into those calculations again as Anet seems to close threads if too many hard facts and numbers run over the screen. Everything can be read back in those threads.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Grind-is-still-grind/

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/

But yeah I clearly did understand the business impact of these changes what is also the reason I almost always link the two topics (cash-shop focus / grind) with each other. Much to some peoples dislike.

Obtena.7952:

I hope they don’t change course on many things, including this because whatever they are doing, it’s working quite well for them. I think it’s nonsense to make simple statements indicating if it’s bad for the game, it needs to be changed. It’s not bad for the game at all. It’s only bad for the people that can’t pull themselves away from it. The game actually thrives because of its concept appealing to its core players. Indicating it’s anything but is showing a lack of understanding what this game means from a business perspective.

I think it’s funny you mention HoT … we already know what big surprise we are going to get and it’s not rare drops from raids or anything close to it, In fact, precursors are craftable. That means more of the same of what we have now.

The changes would not have to alienate the people who like the current system. So I can’t see how it would be bad for them.

“The game actually thrives because of its concept appealing to its core players.” Yeah obviously it’s working for the ‘core players’ as they are the ones still player. All other players got filtered out making what is left the ‘core players’. That does not mean more people are potentiality core players if only some thing would improve.

Didn’t they want to make precursors more of a hunt, so more in line with I ask for and less in line with what we have?

We know what HoT brings for a big part yes, but when it gets released it can still go in two directions, a positive direction and a negative direction. Something that sounds good on paper might not turn out so good in practice while things not even put on paper might work out very possitive. We have seen both happen in GW2 already.
Thats why I say, lets hope it will be the big surprise as in, it will work out (even) better then it does on paper.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

“They either jump off the cliff and take their chances or they smarten up and learn how to avoid it.” what might in reality mean they stop playing the game ….

I hope so because no one should be so stupid they play a game they don’t enjoy. Cliffs aren’t their for people to jump off. I get your angle here: If I try to make them scared the game will fail because of this, they HAVE to change it. That’s not a realistic look at what’s happening with the game. The current ways aren’t going away. At best, there might be some things that move away from it, but it will remain the core, for many varied and complex reasons that have been explained to you many times already. At this point, it’s pretty much a joke to see you bang the pot on your street corner about this.

You can join the guy that wants Sprocket mining pick removed from the game and make ‘The END is NEAR’ signs.

It’s not so much about ‘the end is near’. I mean what is ‘the end’? What I have said for a long time is that this approach would be bad for the game in the long run. Long being 2 / 3 years and when they released an expansion at the 3 year anniversary you might add half a year to that.

(and when comparing it in percentages with GW1 that has already been proved to be correct)

That does not mean I think servers will shut down and thats it. I think this game had the potential to be a true alternative for a game like WoW and could be between the top MMO’s. However when holding this grind I think population will get low (in fact, it is already pretty low, and income has dropped to an all-time low as well) meaning eventually Anet will need to lose some people and the game becomes one of those MMO’s that could have been this great MMO but is not really interesting for new people looking for an MMO at the time. It’s not one of the alternatives.

The people I talked about that would go away did for the most part go away already, but will come back for HoT. Then you can have a game that is able to hold them and you will have a MMO that is ‘up there’ or you can lose them within half a year again and it will be ‘one of those MMO’s’.

Yeah, I do believe that. So is that ‘the end is near’. I don’t know, but I do think changing it to have less grind or / and smaller junks of farms (making hunting down cosmetics fun) could make this difference between the two MMO’s this game can be.

I know the reasons behind it, and I know those reasons (what mainly is the cash-shop focus) also means it’s the part they are likely least willing to change. But all I can do it give my input here. Lets hope HoT will be the big surprise we all hope for.

phys.7689:

CptTrips.6512:

Devata.6589:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devata.6589:

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Your lesson is a fail. maybe you should learn a bit more about RNG

they are kind of right, they just still believe in the fallacy.

your chances are higher BEFORE you attempt with multiple attempts

not after
after you tried 20 times you are not more likely to have suceeded, the past is not probability, it is fact.
there is no probability of events in the past. probability is only in reference to future events.

basically you have a higher chance of success if you intend to try multiple times, but every time you fail, those attempts are no longer part of the possible events.

the guy who failed 1000 times has no probability associated with him the guy who succeeded has no probability associated with him.

RNG is chance and for that we have probability (math) what is hard to grasp for some people.

Going back to what it started with is that I said depending on the drop-rate the average number of runs could be exactly the same as the required number of runs that you would need when using a currency system.

In fact, that is exactly what a drop-rate is. A drop-rate of 1-250 mean on average is will drop once every 250 runs.

You could be a little bid ‘lucky’ and it could drop sooner, or ‘unlucky’ and it would drop later but in the end there is no such real thing as ‘bad luck’, it’s just math.

Having done it 1000 times does not increase you chance when doing it the 1001’t time vs somebodies first try. However somebody who tries it once has a smaller chance it would drop for him then the once who will try it 1000 who in turn has a smaller chance then the one who tried it 1001 times.

Bringing this back to the grind topic. The thing is that some act as if RNG is truly incomprehensible while the currency system is the complete opposite and while it’s true that the currency is more predictable (100%) in the end the difference on that part is not as kittenome seem to think.

Really the difference between the two is that with a 1 / 250 drop-rate means on average you need to do 250 runs. With the currency model that requires 250 tokens of what you get 1 per run you need 250 runs.

So in the end, the difference in game-play (what we talk about here) is that with one you have a number going you slowly see increasing and you know that at your 250th run you will have the item. While the RNG option there is still this fictive number counting up to 250 (or higher) but there is always the rush of ‘will it drop this time’ what at least to me makes every run more interesting and feel less like a grind.

In the end however the difference between the two does not change the actual grind (while some seem to think that the currency results in less grind, what is false).

Going one step further however.. When you make your item (or currency) drop in many places it means that more people will get it (when having the same drop-rate), meaning to keep the same rarity as you would have when it dropped from one place you will need to higher the drop-rate what means those going for that item in fact do end up in a higher grind.

Funny enough, in the previous topic Colin said for the ‘no-grind-philosophy’ they make items available from more places or with a currency to decrease the grind because you could play what you wanted. However in reality this means you increase the grind (or lose rarity, but they obviously try to prevent that seeing many of the drop-rates).

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

There simply is no denying there is a lot of grinding going on in this game.

Can’t deny that people are dumb enough to subject themselves to it when they don’t need to.

So you do agree there is a lot of grinding going on? That is great.

For people not smart enough to avoid it, sure. Just like jumping off a cliff is a problem … for people not smart enough to avoid those too. I think of it as Darwin effect … but for people playing MMO’s. The problem fixes itself in the end for people impacted by this effect. They either jump off the cliff and take their chances or they smarten up and learn how to avoid it. Grinding in THIS game is no different. It doesn’t exist if you decide you don’t need to jump off that cliff. Feel free to jump off that cliff, but if you do, l don’t expect too many people to be sympathetic or understanding, especially when Anet puts up more interesting distractions to keep you from jumping.

“They either jump off the cliff and take their chances or they smarten up and learn how to avoid it.” what might in reality mean they stop playing the game or have less fun because there preferred game-play is not available (other than as a grind). What is not good for the game or for Anet.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

It’s now just a huge part of the game-play that is missing as I am not subjecting myself to this grind. A game-play I would love to have… in a fun way.

You dont like the Gear/Costumes/Pets to be sold in the Gemstore , because you hate the gold/gem transactions …

Why you dont tell that as you reason and you try to to hyjact other ppl threads , by using ‘’general terms’’ to to acomplice you never unufilling eish ?

That why you are such a small minded ….
You are using others ppl threads to create an uproar , but your plan ‘’ a game without selling Gemstore items – and instead that items to be gained by ingame ….will be never fullied ’’ …

You hyjacts even the OP threads , that he hated the different areas that have different RNGS …
Whos between us , is the guy without argument ?

We even had 2 megathreads deticated to you with the EXTACT SAME CONTENT , and with no results …. but instead the ideas that you tried to promote are already in the game , or have been used in the past ..

I wont be gentle this time …. last time i let you to see what you could propose …. but instead you kept going the same circles over and over again for 38 pages …

LETS US HEAR PLZ THE PROBLEMS OF THE INGAME POPULATION PLZZZ !!!!!!!!

2,5 days …

It’s the other way around. I don’t like a cash-shop focus because it results in these sorts of things.

Why else you think I don’t like a cash-shop focus? Just ‘because’? I do not dislike anything ‘just because’. I dislike something because of a reason.

I also don’t highjack this thread, in fact I think I mentioned the cash-shop once before in this thread. This grind simply a big thing I dislike about GW2 and so I post in this thread, and yes I see the cash-shop focus as one of the bigger reasons for this grind / the way the reward system is build. That is true.

About going in circles.. That is true, because everybody does. Every page somebody will say “it’s not required” so I give the same answer that I gave the person the page before and will give person who comes with the same statement on the next page. That is why I go in circles. If everybody would follow the discussion from start to end and never repeat exactly the same as what has been said before I would probably not be going into circles, but that’s the nature of the way forums are build. They are no tree structure sadly.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Is there a good example of a currently running MMO that manages to keep people busy and let them get their skins and gear in a non-repetitive, non-grindy way?

Getting all items completely non-repetitive, I don’t think so, and some grind or the option to grind you will also have almost everywhere.

But if it comes to the hunt for cosmetics it is for sure much better done in WoW. There hunting down items is in fact mainly fun content, where in GW2 that is mainly a boring grind.

There you have crafts that let you make many of such items (skins, mini’s, mounts, toys). Leveling those crafts is then going from the one item you want to make to the next and so does not feel like a grind. Farming mats is not an hard grind, you can get your mats pretty easy and fast, higher level mats are just ‘locked’ behind higher level maps but not behind an huge grind.

Many other items you can earn by completing a quest or a quest chain. There are ranger pets that are challenging to tame, just as there are mini’s you can catch in the world and so on, and so on.

Hunting down those cosmetics simply is a fun experience in that game, while some of the items might still have RNG to them. A heavy grind are just a few.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

There simply is no denying there is a lot of grinding going on in this game.

Can’t deny that people are dumb enough to subject themselves to it when they don’t need to.

So you do agree there is a lot of grinding going on? That is great.

Then there is one step more to take and that is to accept that the way you design a game can help to push people in that grind direction (or leave them no choice if they wish to collect / hunt down certain items) and that another design can be more capable of preventing this, pushing people who like collecting or hunting down items into a more fun experience.

When you are willing to also accept that next step you should try to understand that all people are asking for in this thread, is for the design that does the latter.

Personally I am not ‘dumb enough to subject’ myself ‘to it’. But I would love to be able to hunt down those items in a more fun way. It’s now just a huge part of the game-play that is missing as I am not subjecting myself to this grind. A game-play I would love to have… in a fun way.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

Obtena.7952:

OH yeah… the same people, the same arguments. Please Anet, don’t change how your reward system works. If I wanted to experience low chance loot drops from mobs in zerg raids, I WOULDN’T be playing GW2. I’m not alone.

“If I wanted to experience low chance loot drops from mobs in zerg raids, I WOULDN’T be playing GW2.”
This is exactly what GW2 gives you.. with the exception of the word ‘raid’. But then again, nobody here asked for raids.

" I WOULDN’T be playing GW2. " Well, many people AREN’T playing GW2 because of this.

That’s not true at all. I get loot drops from zerg raids all the time, and they aren’t low chance. In fact, they are 100% chance. I almost know exactly what quality of loot I’m going to get doing a raid.

That’s OK, you twist what people say however you want to convince yourself everyone agrees with you. Luckily, most of us are smart enough to know what we mean when we type something.

I guess you are talking about loot in general. I talk about the loot I really want.. you know the item you are after.. The item you will now eventually buy with the gold you got from selling the loot you got? The item itself however does have an extremely low chance of dropping (if it drops at all).

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devata.6589:

Yeah but when you have done it a second time your overall chance it would have dropped is 0,0019999% and on your 3th run you overall chance is 0,000299970001% and so on. But indeed, every run by itself stays the same.

You’re contradicting yourself. The odds for the occurrence of a random event do not improve across multiple tries.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy

This is just simple math and the problem here is the explanation. Every time you have the same chance, that is true. But the chance you have something in 5 tries (with all the same chances) is bigger.

Your wiki page does say the following “The gambler’s fallacy is the false belief that a random process becomes less random, and more predictable, as it is repeated”.

That is true when looking at it from a single try. My next try is as big as my following, and the number of tries does not influence that.

However, if you have done it a lot of times, chances are bigger that one of those tries had a positive outcome.

That in fact does mean a higher number makes something less random. The whole since is based around this. If you would do a scientific paper where you use peoples feedback as part of your ‘investigation’ you will need enough people for your information to be reliable. Meaning ‘less random’ and there is software that helps you determine if your group is reliable enough. If you would only interview 2 people it would never be considered reliable. This is related to this the same chance math.

Just for the record, the wiki page does not even deny what I am saying here. It says that people believe that if they gamble on number 1 out of 10 and lose, the next try they should gamble on 1 again because now the chance is bigger that 1 will ‘drop’. That is indeed false. It does not matter on what of the 10 number they gamle, there is no difference. They can gamble on whatever they want and the chance it will be the correct number still is the same. However, having gambled 10 times increased there change of having had it right at least once (no matter what number it was) over having only gambled once. That last part is what I talked about.

So far for the lesson on math, guess it’s sort of relevant for the subject, now back tot he topic.

gaspara.4079:

Devata.6589:

If for example an item has a more doable drop-rate (low enough to not feel as a boring grind) but it only drops form one specific place then it can also be rare. If you make an item drop from everything (or the currency to buy the item) you will need a way lower drop-rate to get the same rarity and you increase the grind.

If item x drop from 1 place with a 1/100 drop-rate that gives it a specific rarity (depending on some factors like how many people do that content, is it content people grind anyway and so on). If you make it drop from 2 places then you would need a 1/200 drop rate to get the same rarity.

So the more places it drops from, the more grindy you need to make your game simply to hold the same rarity for the item.

Then there are other options like putting an item behind challenging content. the harder the content the more rare the item will be.

GW2 has each of the drop ideas you mentioned in it.

The rare drop off specific places/hard content can be applied to Tequatl’s Hoard and Pile of Regurgitated Armor. The armor contained in the Pile of Regurgitated Armor is among the rarest skins in the game because of this fact.

Fractal skins have higher droprates at higher fractal levels. so that is clearly hard content increases your chances.

They have also due to player feedback began putting items behind a series of specific tasks to acquire the item straight off. They do this in the form of collections (Luminescent Armor armor was a trial run of the Precursor Quests in Hot) and specific crafting chains (Mawdrey).

The main point behind most of the drop system is that it eliminates required playstyles. Since gold can be acquired from literally every way of playing the game (including just chatting in town due to daily login rewards) after some amount of time playing you will eventually be able to get the skin that you want. There is no need to play a specific way in order to get it. Choosing to take the path of least resistance even if that playstyle is boring or repetitive to you to try and get the desired skin as fast as possible is entirely on you.

Now I must go back to my daily grind. The one that keeps my family sheltered, clothed and fed. The only grind worth doing.

Yes it does. I always talk about how 90% of the items are a boring grind. (where 90% should not be taken literally) Part of the other 10% is implemented well. I also use Liadri multiple times as a good example, so I never denied that all items where implemented badly.

Sadly some of the ‘better’ implementations are at the same time also ruined again by the grindy nature of the game. For examples the rare items dropping from world-bosses. Basically they are the better way of implementing rewards, the only problem is that those bosses get grinded for gold so to keep the items a little rare drop-rates need to be extreme while simply because so many people do them the TP still gets flooded with them anyway. Making grinding gold still the only real viable option to get those skins.

But yes, there are items implemented well in the game. Never denied that. However if you have 90% makes it a grind the items implemented in a good way are not going to safe the day. A big problem here is that they want to make money with the cash-shop (in stead of with expansions like in GW2) meaning they put many items in the cash-shop and those items are by nature the ‘bad’ implementation as they are always only being this gold-grind, from a game perspective. (buying them with real money is not playing a game)

About the option to play any content and still being able to get them. While it also devaluates the item they could simply have the same result by not making the items account-bound but having them all implemented in this way. Personally I think it’s fine, in fact it’s even good if many rewards are locked behind specific content, but if they want to make most items not account bound I would be fine with it as well. It would still give you a better experience then we have now and leave room to get it by playing other content as well.

Nausicca.6038:

I personaly don’t find GW2 very grindy. Exotic are really easy to get and you don’t need more to be able to complete any aspect of the game.
Runes and sigils can be a little longer to get, but there are a lot of ways to make gold now.

In fact, my only regret about GW2 is that you can’t really farm mats for rare exotics or legendaries. I mean, yes you can farm mats, but farming gold is a lot faster. For example, when I made my Immobulus, I had to buy 248 out of 250 giant eyes to make it because of their horrible drop rate.
I really enjoy collecting mats, opening bags and chests and get here and there a T6 mat or a lodestone. Buying it on TP is just meh. I’m still working on my first legendary, mostly because I don’t feel any accomplishement doing it. Just an endless gold farming.

“Just an endless gold farming.” That is exactly the grind I talk about. And not only for mats but also for 90% of the cosmetics this is the case.

What I keep finding interesting in these threads is how there is always the group trying to defeat the grind, not even willing to accept other people find the game grindy.

(not saying it might not be grindy for you.. depending on your preferred game-play the game does not have to be grindy. If you like WvW I completely see how the game is not grindy for you)

But really, if you look in GW2, at least half of the people are doing nothing else then grinding. Being it dry-top today and silver-waste tomorrow (usually based what is the most rewarding at the time). They do a dungeon for the gold or kill a champion for the gold.

People aren’t blind are they? Or is this one of these ‘love makes blind’ cases? There simply is no denying there is a lot of grinding going on in this game. Love it or hate it but there simply is no denying this, yet people keep trying to do so.

So who are you then fooling? Mainly yourself.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Most MMOs lock desirable rewards (skins, armor, minis, weapons, etc.) behind activities that are both time-consuming and repetitive. This is how they keep people “busy” and they all do it. For most people, time-consuming and repetitive equals grind. In this particular game, making money is not as easy as in many other games, so even earning gold to buy what you want can feel like a grind.

Used to irritate me until I accepted that all MMOs are the same in this. They simply have different styles of implementing their grind.

Some better then others.

Biggest problem here is that for most items you can’t work directly towards them but there is always the need to grind for gold. So you are basically always grinding for the same (while you could do that in multiple ways) to buy what you want.

Doing it this way is what makes it this never ending boring grind in stead of multiple smaller farms / grinds that usually also keep interesting because you are doing different task / content all the time. Also it pushes people to grind for gold in the fastest way, what is their own choice, but at the same time then also punishes other people for using another method, what is not their choice, and lastly it means you could get the same reward by doing some brainless task over and over again and get the same reward as somebody who does challenging content, meaning the item has nearly no value from a game perspective.

That is why this implementation is so bad and people complain so much about the grind.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata i will say it once again and they i will target you hard you in 3 days , before the thread closed
(like the other 2 that you bossed around + was filled with nonsense like here + was closed)

Let us here the majority and not the nonsense of Devata

The onwer of the threads hates the RNG nature of things … Where different locations drops different things
Take your ‘’items must be droped ingame and no in the cashshop’’ mentality and walk away slowly or go back in WoW …

3 days …

If you a see a single person (like you ) that systematicaylly attack others players and say there is not grind , you can bicker him ….

3 days ….

The only person always trying to attack a single person (without really any arguments) is you.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I beat players with ascended armor in WVW with my meager Exotics.

When I suddenly have the materials I need as a result of playing the game, I will put them into ascended armor as a material sink.

Not needed. Don’t care~

Protip: Forcing yourself to not have fun in a game so you can get the best X in the game by your perception is not a grind. It’s you sucking the fun out of your life.

Quit it. Because when you suck the fun out of your life and have your brand new shiny as a result of churning through all the content, then you suck the fun out of everyone elses life by complaining that there’s nothing to do.

It’s however the way the game is designed that makes hunting down those items a boring grind, or interesting content. So there is no need for this to suck the fun out of the game… it could be the fun of the game. But your right, in GW2 doing this does suck the fun out of the game. So thats the problem.

AdaephonDelat.3890:

Devata.6589:

pdavis.8031:

Gazille.7381:

This game level system is a grind. bring back normal quest.

Doing quests is a grind. Let us have instant level 80s with full traits and BiS gear from creation.

If you do quest just to grind some currency (like XP) to then get what you want (a higher level) then is for sure is grinding.

If you do a quest for a specific reward that quest drops it’s not grinding.

Also when taking all definitions of grind into consideration.

If I want the reward at the end but I find the particular quest chain boring as hell then yes it’s a grind as I have to force myself to play one specific thing to get the thing I want.

With all the definition used for grind there is at least one common denominator and that is repetition. Now you simply define anything you don’t like as grind. Well thats fine, but then you won’t add anything to this discussion I’m afraid, I will also not go into this subject of the definition of grind with you any further. Anybody reading can make up their on mind on that matter. You are really just fooling yourself here, nobody else.

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

Erick Alastor.3917:

Fun impacts decisions. Every time you finish a dungeon you get tokens you can trade in for reward items that you want, rather than having a small chance of getting it as a drop, because it’s more fun to always get rewarded for finishing with something you want to have!

By Colin Johanson June 19th, 2012

Seeing this number going up slowly is way more boring then always having the rush of ’’will it drop". With a currency like tokens you know from the start how many runs you will need (what is boring) while with the RNG it might drop the first time but you can also be unlucky and take longer.
However, based on the drop-rate the average number of runs you need to do for it to drop can be exactly the same as the numbers of runs you need to do to get the tokens.

So in number of runs it would not have to be different but the currency system is the boring option where the RNG is the more trilling ‘will it drop rush’ option.

And why would some currency like tokens that are useless until I have a specific number of them, feel rewarded? Is doesn’t. Not to me at least. It’s basically junk until you have enough of it.

Maybe the fact that they think the currency / token system is better is then the biggest flaw in their design philosophy if it comes to grind ans that is what makes everything such a boring grind.

Seeing the number go up steadily is the more interesting and fulfilling option while hoping for a random number generator to decide to favor you is a boring and unfulfilling option.

I find the rush of ‘will it drop’ way more fulfilling. This currency model is exactly what makes everything such a boring grind. And the ‘random generator’ is not completely random. There is a specific drop-rate and based on that your average number of runs to get what you want can be the same as using the token system.

You act here as if the RNG system is some 100% random system that gives you completely no indication of time/ runs but that you are completely depended from the RNG gods. Well RNG gods don’t exist.. it’s just math.

So that number is always going up, every run you’re mathematically chance
it drops increases. That’s the up going number, while also having the rush of ‘will it drop this time’.

Your chance of getting the drop is the same every time. If it is .0001% the first time it is .0001% the thousandth time.

Yeah but when you have done it a second time your overall chance it would have dropped is 0,0019999% and on your 3th run you overall chance is 0,000299970001% and so on. But indeed, every run by itself stays the same.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

“One would assume that you play a game because you want to play a game which makes playing the game anything but optional.”
Sure, you could also put it like this. Then the grind for cosmetics would still be the same as the other types of grind. Both being ‘required’. I don’t really care if you consider it required or not, my point was that there basically are the same. Both not required or both required is not the point. If it’s bad is personal.

I think you’re mistaken the statement required grind with required reward

I am not saying you have to give up on a reward just because it is a cosmetic I am just saying you dont have to grind for it (even though of course you could should you choose to)

Lets take vision of the mists that takes 250 ecto as an example. you could buy the ecto for 32s each thats 80g more or less. You could hardcore farm silverwastes and for you that might mean a few hours of grind. Or I could simply just play my game, do what I want. depending on what you do you choose to do you’ll get a few rares a day… lets say an average of 3. I could sell those which will likely give me enough to buy 4 ecto or I can salvage them which depending on my luck will give me an average of 2-5 ecto. Just with that I can get my reward in 2 – 5 months of 0 grind. (of course you could also cut this down further if you use some of the other stuff you earn you dont have to limit yourself to rares).

But in other MMOs that have mandatory grind I dont have that luxury. In MMOs that for example limit content access behind gear score, or armor tier etcs.. I cannot afford to take it easy. Taking 5 months to get a single piece of gear would mean that by the time I am done getting my gear score I would be 2 – 4 releases behind being cut unable to play with my friends anymore.

Devata.6589:

“as I said, I want to play the game thats my primary goal. If I need to grind the same content until I am able to progress more in the game I am stuck.”
And my primary goal might be getting some cosmetics (collecting them is ‘playing the game’ for me) while your primary goal might be doing the highest level raids.

Even here there is a big difference. While I am taking it easy I am still progressing towards my cosmetic of choice. Taking a break from the grind isnt really stopping for pursuiting my goal its just making it take a little longer. But in the case of mandatory grind, If I need tier 10 super duper armor of doom that only drops from the raid of champions in order to access the new zone and I take a break from raiding I am not progressing an inch. whats more I am doomed to play the same old content even if the devs might be busy pumping out new stuff every single day (yeah they’re that good) ! The more time I refuse to grind the worst it gets for me.

Simply speaking grind isnt optional in that you can just simply forget about the reward because you dont need it. grind is optional because you can go about in different ways to get your reward and also above all cause that reward is not crucial for anything. So getting in 5 hours or 5 months isnt really any different.. well perhaps 5 months might even be considered a little better since it increases the longevity of the game because if what you want is to go after cosmetics what happens after you acquire all those that you want?

With the first part you completely dismiss the fact that hunting down such items is the preferred game-play for many.. that is for them ‘playing the game’ however, that must then not be a boring grind.

There is no item you ‘need’ there is no grinding you ‘need’. There are only goals and those goals might have challenging content to unlock those goals or have a never ending boring grind.

“While I am taking it easy I am still progressing towards my cosmetic of choice.” Also this is purely a theoretically truth. If you would play like this (while again, completely dismissing that hunting down items is the preferred game-play for many) you would hopelessly run behind. New items you might also like get added every month. So collecting is them already completely out of the question. But even only going for the ones you prefer the most will be a unrealistic task, if you add an item to your list of ‘things you want’ once every two month you would only run more and more behind. Not to mention that if a goal is to far away people also lost intrest.

In you first example of how you talk about getting an item without grinding you come to 2 – 5 months. So that would be 3,5 months on average. So if you started to collect such items at release you would soon (3 years later) be able to get your 10th item. (And personally I do not get 3 rares a day but that’s also because I do not play a lot at the moment. Hoping for better times with HoT)

Theoretically it’s all nice, currency

Lemuria.3195:

Astralporing.1957:

Removing grind by redefining it to not be called grind. Pure genius.
I guess since we solved that problem, people will stop complaining since they won’t be grinding anymo…
oh wait.

“So far I’ve not heard one compelling argument that shows Guild Wars could be considered a ‘grind’. The only cited examples are all optional extras which won’t interest every player and are designed to be rare.”

There is nothing every players want. With your logic you could make rare gear a grind and then say not everybody needs of want it because you would only need it for dungeons and not everybody is interested in dungeons.

Yes it’s all about optional thing just as the game itself. That does not mean it’s not a boring grind if you do want to hunt down those optional things.

“See, here’s the thing. Rarity makes these things more valuable.”
And being able to get a eward by spending real money or doing brainless takes devalues items.

you can have way better ways of making an item rare while not having the same grind as in GW2.

If for example a item has a more doable drop-rate (low enough to not feel as a boring grind) but it only drops form one specific place then it will be rare. If you make an item drop from everything (or the currency to buy the item) you will need a way lower drop-rate to get the same rarety.

If item x drop from 1 place with a 1/100 drop-rate that gives it a specific rarety. If you make it drop from 2 places then you would need a 1/200 droprate to get the same rarety.

So the more places it drops from, the more grindy you need to make your game simply to hold the same rarety for the item.

And then there are other options like putting an item behind challeging content. the harder the content the more rare the item will be.

“So far I’ve not heard one compelling argument that shows Guild Wars could be considered a ‘grind’. The only cited examples are all optional extras which won’t interest every player and are designed to be rare.”

There is nothing every players want. With your logic you could make rare gear a grind and then say not everybody needs or want it because you would only need it for dungeons and not everybody is interested in dungeons. And so it would not be a grind.

Yes it’s all about optional things just as the game itself. That does not mean it’s not a boring grind if you do want to hunt down those optional things. And hunting down such items is the preferred game-play for many MMO-players in general and seeing as how GW2 was knows as casual and focused on cosmetics you can assume that was especially true for the GW2 player base. I say ‘was’ because that group (many of them) has most likely left by now.

“See, here’s the thing. Rarity makes these things more valuable.”
Yes and being able to get a reward by spending real money or doing brainless tasks devalues items.

You can have way better ways of making an item rare while not having the same grind as in GW2.

If for example an item has a more doable drop-rate (low enough to not feel as a boring grind) but it only drops form one specific place then it can also be rare. If you make an item drop from everything (or the currency to buy the item) you will need a way lower drop-rate to get the same rarity and you increase the grind.

If item x drop from 1 place with a 1/100 drop-rate that gives it a specific rarity (depending on some factors like how many people do that content, is it content people grind anyway and so on). If you make it drop from 2 places then you would need a 1/200 drop rate to get the same rarity.

So the more places it drops from, the more grindy you need to make your game simply to hold the same rarity for the item.

Then there are other options like putting an item behind challenging content. the harder the content the more rare the item will be.

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

Erick Alastor.3917:

Fun impacts decisions. Every time you finish a dungeon you get tokens you can trade in for reward items that you want, rather than having a small chance of getting it as a drop, because it’s more fun to always get rewarded for finishing with something you want to have!

By Colin Johanson June 19th, 2012

Seeing this number going up slowly is way more boring then always having the rush of ’’will it drop". With a currency like tokens you know from the start how many runs you will need (what is boring) while with the RNG it might drop the first time but you can also be unlucky and take longer.
However, based on the drop-rate the average number of runs you need to do for it to drop can be exactly the same as the numbers of runs you need to do to get the tokens.

So in number of runs it would not have to be different but the currency system is the boring option where the RNG is the more trilling ‘will it drop rush’ option.

And why would some currency like tokens that are useless until I have a specific number of them, feel rewarded? Is doesn’t. Not to me at least. It’s basically junk until you have enough of it.

Maybe the fact that they think the currency / token system is better is then the biggest flaw in their design philosophy if it comes to grind ans that is what makes everything such a boring grind.

Seeing the number go up steadily is the more interesting and fulfilling option while hoping for a random number generator to decide to favor you is a boring and unfulfilling option.

I find the rush of ‘will it drop’ way more fulfilling. This currency model is exactly what makes everything such a boring grind. In fact, it might be (part of) the core of the grind problem in this game. The ‘random generator’ is not completely random. There is a specific drop-rate and based on that your average number of runs to get what you want can be the same as using the token system.

You act here as if the RNG system is some 100% random system that gives you completely no indication of time/ runs but that you are completely depended of the RNG gods. It does not work that way, you don’t have to wait for a favor ,RNG gods don’t exist.. it’s just math.

So that number is always going up, every run you’re mathematically chance
it drops increases. That’s the up going number, while also having the rush of ‘will it drop this time’.

pdavis.8031:

Gazille.7381:

This game level system is a grind. bring back normal quest.

Doing quests is a grind. Let us have instant level 80s with full traits and BiS gear from creation.

If you do quest just to grind some currency (like XP) to then get what you want (a higher level) then is for sure is grinding.

If you do a quest for a specific reward that quest drops it’s not grinding.

Also when taking all definitions of grind into consideration.

Teon.5168:

Devata.6589:

Teon.5168:

Devata.6589:

Killface.1896:

GRIND is for end game gear and that not hard to get,other stuff like gold,epic skins are are meant to be hard to get or it would just be meaningless as everybody would have them.

They are not hard, they are a never-ending boring brainless grind.

Heck, I would love it if they where locked behind some hard challenging content in steads of this easy but boring brainless grind.

Yea, and after one has played the same game for a few years, that ‘hard challenging’ content certainly would never become old/tired/easy/brainless, huh?

Same complaints from years ago in the very first mmos. And the same solution now as way back then.

Yawn.

No, it will likely get boring, that is why I am also in favor of having yearly expansion in stead of these LS and then an expansion after 3 years. But that is a completely different topic.

So sure, content can get boring (while good content does not have to get boring, I still love to play Wolfenstein:ET even after 10 years and having done some of the maps probably well over a 1000 times) but that is not an excuse for having everything a never ending boring brainless grind?

Not everything is a never ending grind. Maybe to you it is, but not to me.

Just like Wolfenstein:ET. You love that game even after 10 years. It is a decent game for it’s genre, imo……but beyond that….meh. I doubt if I could get very enthusiastic about that game even if you paid me. Just not my kind of game.

That’s the whole issue about threads like these. Personal opinion and perceptions, and nothing more. That’s why the whole ‘grind’ complaint thread to me is so completely pointless/useless, and a complete waste of time.

Speaking of that, I got better things to do……like watching the grass grow.

That’s what I have said from the beginning, some grind might be bad to you and good for me and the other way around. Still there is progress to be made. Some changes would not hurt the people who like it but help those who dislike it. Those people (who mostly left by now) might come back with HoT so that’s the moment to have it fixed.

So yes, it has to do with how people perceive grind, not about some general definition that you can test GW2 factually on. Fact is that GW2 is by many known for its grind, terms like Grind Wars 2 don’t come out of nowhere.

In fact it’s a little strange that you would want to dismiss it because it’s about personal opinions. It’s the entertainment industry, how people perceive your product is what’s it’s all about. It’s not a tool that works or does not work, it’s a toy you want people to like (perceive positive).
It’s the same as making a movie and then when you get a lot of negative feedback but you dismiss that, not taking that feedback into consideration when making your sequel movie because ‘it are just opinions’ seems like the recipe for failure of your sequel.

Obtena.7952:

OH yeah… the same people, the same arguments. Please Anet, don’t change how your reward system works. If I wanted to experience low chance loot drops from mobs in zerg raids, I WOULDN’T be playing GW2. I’m not alone.

“If I wanted to experience low chance loot drops from mobs in zerg raids, I WOULDN’T be playing GW2.”
This is exactly what GW2 gives you.. with the exception of the word ‘raid’. But then again, nobody here asked for raids.

" I WOULDN’T be playing GW2. " Well, many people AREN’T playing GW2 because of this.

Teon.5168:

Devata.6589:

Killface.1896:

GRIND is for end game gear and that not hard to get,other stuff like gold,epic skins are are meant to be hard to get or it would just be meaningless as everybody would have them.

They are not hard, they are a never-ending boring brainless grind.

Heck, I would love it if they where locked behind some hard challenging content in steads of this easy but boring brainless grind.

Yea, and after one has played the same game for a few years, that ‘hard challenging’ content certainly would never become old/tired/easy/brainless, huh?

Same complaints from years ago in the very first mmos. And the same solution now as way back then.

Yawn.

No, it will likely get boring, that is why I am also in favor of having yearly expansions in stead of these LS and then an expansion after 3 years. But that is a completely different topic.

So sure, content can get boring (while good content does not have to get boring, I still love to play Wolfenstein:ET even after 10 years and having done some of the maps probably well over a 1000 times) but that is not an excuse for having everything a never ending boring brainless grind?

Erick Alastor.3917:

Fun impacts decisions. Every time you finish a dungeon you get tokens you can trade in for reward items that you want, rather than having a small chance of getting it as a drop, because it’s more fun to always get rewarded for finishing with something you want to have!

By Colin Johanson June 19th, 2012

Seeing this number going up slowly is way more boring then always having the rush of ’’will it drop". With a currency like tokens you know from the start how many runs you will need (what is boring) while with the RNG it might drop the first time but you can also be unlucky and take longer.
However, based on the drop-rate the average number of runs you need to do for it to drop can be exactly the same as the numbers of runs you need to do to get the tokens.

So in number of runs it would not have to be different but the currency system is the boring option where the RNG is the more trilling ‘will it drop rush’ option.

And why would some currency like tokens that are useless until I have a specific number of them, feel rewarded? Is doesn’t. Not to me at least. It’s basically junk until you have enough of it.

Maybe the fact that they think the currency / token system is better is then the biggest flaw in their design philosophy if it comes to grind ans that is what makes everything such a boring grind.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

This entire thread is an argument about the definition of a specific word. It happens to be a word with several alternative definitions and still more connotations.

It’s, of course, your choice, if you want to get hung up about how ANet chose to use the word. I would argue that is a ‘grindy’ choice to keep making the same argument on the same topic, resulting in the same lack of response (for the same reasons that people keep posting in response).

tl;dr if you choose to grind by posting complaints based on the definition of the word ‘grind’, you might also want to revisit the word ‘irony’ .

But it’s not about the word or Anets definition, it’s about the perceived grind. It does not matter what type of grind Anet tries to prevent or how one person defines grind while another defines it different. You have a problem when many people feel a ‘grind’, get bored by the game because of it and eventually possibly leave the game because of it.

So thats basically how I look at it.

gaspara.4079:

Devata.6589:

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

~

~

“One would assume that you play a game because you want to play a game which makes playing the game anything but optional.”
Sure, you could also put it like this. Then the grind for cosmetics would still be the same as the other types of grind. Both being ‘required’. I don’t really care if you consider it required or not, my point was that there basically are the same. Both not required or both required is not the point. If it’s bad is personal.

“as I said, I want to play the game thats my primary goal. If I need to grind the same content until I am able to progress more in the game I am stuck.”
And my primary goal might be getting some cosmetics (collecting them is ‘playing the game’ for me) while your primary goal might be doing the highest level raids.

According to the court of internet public opinion skins are not content. A patch releasing just new skins is not considered to be a content patch and therefore any effort to acquire a specific skin is considered completely optional and can therefore not be grind.

Also according to the internet court of public opinion raids are considered content. The release of a new raid is considered a content release and any forced play time to get to experience this new content is considered the grind wall for said raid.

Therefore the internet court of public opinion must rule in favor of Galen Grey.4709.

As far as the original post there is a surprising split decision. Since the beta test will include HoT content and players will be forced to play in DryTop and Silverwastes, this does constitute a required grind according to the internet court of public opinion. If this were changed to drop from any map in the game that would no longer be the case.

A skin is not content no, but the way to obtain that skin can be interesting content, and the skin (or other cosmetic) can even help to enhance the experience of that content.

“and therefore any effort to acquire a specific skin is considered completely optional and can therefore not be grind.” Of course this part is not decided by ’’the court of Internet public" but some illogical logic you add to it because you notice how the fact that a skin itself is not content did not really help your point
Sadly enough, the rest of your post is based on this assumption.

Yes it is optional but that does not mean it’s not a grind or it is not bad. It is bad for everybody who likes to hunt down cosmetics.

“The release of a new raid is considered a content release and any forced play time to get to experience this new content is considered the grind wall for said raid.” Yes this is ALSO grind and bad for the people who want to do those raid..

Exactly as bad as the grind for the cosmetics is, for the people who like to get those cosmetics. There is no difference whatsoever. If the part you like to achieve (being it an item, or a raid) requires a boring grind, that is bad.

“Therefore the Internet court of public opinion must rule in favor of Galen Grey.4709.” No, the people who like to do raids would rule in favor of Galen Grey. (And those following your illogical logic)

cocowoushi.7150:

I’m curious to hear what would be an example of a “no grind” MMO. What about it keeps you from repeating content to get something you want?

Not grindy or way less grind? You will always have some grind and some types of grind are also worse then other.

But when, for example, looking at the cosmetics like mini’s, toys, mounts and so on collecting then in WoW (a game most people here are familiar with) is far more enjoyable and is / feels way less grindy then in GW2.

Let take min’s for examples. Here for 90% is ’’grind gold and buy" or “buy with cash”. In WoW some are rewarded from quest, some you can make with a craft, some you can catch in the world, some are being rewarded for dungeons, some drop from mobs (the last two can be a guaranteed drop or with some RNG while usually a way more doable drop-rate), some simply spawn at places in the world you can scout for and so on.

Collecting them there can be fun, interesting, enjoyable content by itself. In GW2 it’s just a boring grind for most of them.

Hidori.3472:

Hylgeriak.8250:

It is grind if you make it a grind.

what he said.

Non grindy way:
do world bosses which give you two bonus chests and two dungeons of your choice.
if you’re up for it, do one complete silverwastes run.

This will take you a few days, but there you go: not grindy.

The grindy way:
silverwastes weekend
and you’re done

Your Non grindy way sounds kinda grindy to me. Doing bosses and dungeons and silver-waste just to see this number (gold) slowly going up until the point where you can then buy the item you want.

Lukse.6283:

Its a game dude, so you should enjoy what you are doing. If you hate grinding I would rather go to factory and work there, as well get some money in return lol. Of course everyone wants best coolest looking gear, to show off, thats human nature, but if its your only goal, I would stop cause its waste of time

Yeah.. if it is a grind like in GW2 you are right. That is also the complain you see here. Make it fun, interesting content in stead of this boring grind that is just as bad as working in a factory. Many other mmo’s manage to make the hunt for ‘getting that coolest looking item’ enjoyable content.

Killface.1896:

GRIND is for end game gear and that not hard to get,other stuff like gold,epic skins are are meant to be hard to get or it would just be meaningless as everybody would have them.

They are not hard, they are a never-ending boring brainless grind.

Heck, I would love it if they where locked behind some hard challenging content in steads of this easy but boring brainless grind.

Ayrilana.1396:

Devata.6589:

Ayrilana.1396:

Devata.6589:

Required grind does not exist in a game because a game is optional.

I’m sorry but that’s inaccurate and flawed reasoning. Stating a game is optional has no bearing as to whether content locked behind a repetitive method of acquisition is in fact a grind or not.

Think of it in another way. Let’s say that in order for players to even start the game, they have to left click 1 million times. Then upon each level they get, they have to left click another 1 million times. All of this clicking is in order to progress in the game. Now by your argument, this game contains no grind because that game is optional.

I understand that there are people that tend to use the “game is optional” argument but it is flawed. Anything that is optional can still have grind that is required in order to experience some or all of the content within.

“I’m sorry but that’s inaccurate and flawed reasoning.” No it’s not.

“Stating a game is optional has no bearing as to whether content locked behind a repetitive method of acquisition is in fact a grind or not.” You are completely right. But making this out of what I said is flawed reasoning.

I simply said it was by definition not ‘required’. I do not talk about content being locked behind something. Not to mention that ‘content’ can be explained in many ways. Collecting those cosmetics is also considered ‘content’ by many and that is locked behind a repetitive method of acquisition. What makes in double flawed.

“Let’s say that in order for players to even start the game, they have to left click 1 million times.” While this would come the closes to definition of ‘required’ in a game it’s a completely unrealistic example (I don’t know any game where you would need to grind before you would be able to get into the game itself).

“Then upon each level they get, they have to left click another 1 million times.” That is only ‘if’ you want to get to the second level. There is always stuff you can do at level 1 and maybe that’s just fine for you. Getting to the next level is always a choice.

“Now by your argument, this game contains no grind because that game is optional.” Wait whut? I did not say it was not grind, I said it was not required! That is something else! What btw does not make it any better, let me also be clear about that.

The problem is that some people tent to consider grind to reach their personal goals as ‘required’ grind while the grind other people need to do to achieve their goals as optional grind they choose to do.

“Anything that is optional can still have grind that is required in order to experience some or all of the content within.” Yes, I never said this was not the case. In fact, that is my point. All grind is optional, that does not make one type of grind worse than another type of grind by definition. It’s a personal thing. It’s bad for you if it locks what you want.

I was not talking about the type of grind that either exists or doesn’t exist in this game. What I was talking about was your usage of the argument that because a game is optional, there is no grind whether it be optional or required. This is incorrect.

“What I was talking about was your usage of the argument that because a game is optional, there is no grind whether it be optional or required.”

I know, and the problem is.. that I did not say this, or anything close to this.

I said grind is always optional because the game is optional. I did not say, the game is optional so there is no grind:S. My whole argument here is that the grind is bad so why would I say there is no grind?:S

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Required grind does not exist in a game because a game is optional. A lot of people say WoW is one of those grindy games because you ‘had to grind’ to do the highest level raids.

One would assume that you play a game because you want to play a game which makes playing the game anything but optional. If you’re not interested in playing the game then the whole grind argument is superfluous.

It only becomes relevant when you actually want to play the game which is where mandatory or optional grind becomes an issue. Do I have to grind in order to play the game? Yes / No… Its a problem were as If I dont follow a specific grind at some point in time I will be prevent from playing anything further the game has to offer. Kinda like a paywall but with grind rather then money.

How is optional grind different then mandatory grind ?

as I said, I want to play the game thats my primary goal. If I need to grind the same content until I am able to progress more in the game I am stuck. Imagine having to get a full set of nightmare armor and weapons until you’re allowed in drytop for example and until you get to drytop and get full set of amberite weapons you cannot get to silverwastes which in turn until you get a full set of biolumen armor you cannot move on to heart of thorns.

I want to get to drytop, I want to experience the living story but unless I stick to the torture it will be impossible to ever play with my friends again. I have no choice I need to stick to the schedule and keep up.

lets compare this with actually getting nightmare court armor set, amberite weapons and biolumen armor with it being a requirement for anything. essentially its the same thing but from a game experience point of view its night and day. I do a couple of runs of TA and take a break, go farm a little dry top for those fossils… nahh but I dont feel like it today so let me go work a bit towards the biolumen armor but hey this all getting old so off I go exploring some old zones for something I missed or go level up a new alt with a friend and hey one night guild is organizing a TA run and are 1 down… lets go.

so yes required grind most certainly exists we all play a game an invest so much time in a game cause we want to play that game. grind that prevents you from playing said game is most certainly required grind and you cannot stop the grind or it will become impossible to catch up which ultimately turns the mmo into a single player game for the most part making it very hard for you to catch up with your buddies and thus forever segregating you from them unless you put in an inhuman level of grind to make up for the “slaking” or the game is kind enough to eventually put in some catch up system.

“One would assume that you play a game because you want to play a game which makes playing the game anything but optional.”
Sure, you could also put it like this. Then the grind for cosmetics would still be the same as the other types of grind. Both being ‘required’. I don’t really care if you consider it required or not, my point was that there basically are the same. Both not required or both required is not the point. If it’s bad is personal.

“as I said, I want to play the game thats my primary goal. If I need to grind the same content until I am able to progress more in the game I am stuck.”
And my primary goal might be getting some cosmetics (collecting them is ‘playing the game’ for me) while your primary goal might be doing the highest level raids.

Hidori.3472:

Devata.6589:

Hidori.3472:

you don’t have to grind anything. just play the game how you like. full exotic gear is strong enough for the content and very easy to get.

now ofc if you need ascended gear or badly need a legendary, you’ll have to “grind” for it.

it’s like irl. if you want that big house and expensive car, you have to grind it.

And when people play a game they don’t want to have it like irl. It being a challenge is fine, smaller farms are also acceptable but a never-ending currency grid like irl is not what many people are looking for in a game.

hm.

would you call it grinding when I do all the world bosses every day and the dailies? maybe throw in a few fast dungeon runs, too?

Doing this gives me enough gold and items and I’m happy.

But if I need something fast, I’ll have to grind it. there’s no way around, besides buying gold.

There’s just no need for grinding in this game. It’s all up to oneself and how desperate he is for a particular item.

As I said earlier, full exotic gear is easy to obtain and can be done casually without spending time grinding it.

it’s the nature of things. if we want to have something in a shorter period of time, we have to put in more effort. that’s true on this planet and all others out there.

It’s not about the effort being put in, it’s the never ending brainless grind people complain about, and yes when I do bosses every day just to earn the gold to buy the items I want then it becomes a boring grind.

I rather do something specific to be rewarded the item. Like completing a quest chain, or doing a dungeon, even if there is some RNG for the item to drop, as long as that is an acceptable drop-rate. But this never-ending gold grind is what makes the grind in this game one of the worse type of grind there is imho.

Basically destroying the horizontal progression / cosmetic hunt in this game. Sure there are other things to do, but it’s too bad that the element the game focuses so much on is just so bad because of this grind.

Hidori.3472:

you don’t have to grind anything. just play the game how you like. full exotic gear is strong enough for the content and very easy to get.

now ofc if you need ascended gear or badly need a legendary, you’ll have to “grind” for it.

it’s like irl. if you want that big house and expensive car, you have to grind it.

And when people play a game they don’t want to have it like irl. It being a challenge is fine, smaller farms are also acceptable but a never-ending currency grid like irl is not what many people are looking for in a game.

CureForLiving.5360:

Test.8734:

Irrelevant. You are not “REQUIRED” to advance the game. You aren’t even “REQUIRED” to play the game at all.

You’re mixing context here. I do believe ‘required’ here is placed within the context of the game itself and its mechanics.

Devata.6589:

With grind in a game it’s always an ‘if’. IF you want X you need to grind. If you want to do the highest level raids in WoW you need to grind, if you want cosmetics, toys (and so on) in GW2 you need to grind.

Since most new content in WoW takes the form of raids you’d be excluded from a large potion of content if you do not grind for better gear. Access to gameplay content is being walled off. You can’t really liken not being able to play content in the game with having a fancy weapon skin. The only grind in GW2 is fractals and technically leveling, in all other regards there is no content with a barrier to entry that requires grinding.

New content being mainly raids? Every expansion they add new toys, mini’s, mounts, armor and weapons (skins), toys, ranger pets and so on, all having their own content behind it.

With MoP they added a type of Pokémon system for mini’s, so a complete new game mechanic mainly targeting these type of players. They have ‘fun crafts’ (that lets you create this sorts of items) like engineering, that get expanded every expansion. All those things can keep people busy until the next expansion.

So no, most new content is not raids. It’s also all these things. It is exactly what GW2 missis or has as a big grind, and for a game that is so focused on cosmetics and ‘casual players’ that is a big problem.

“You can’t really liken not being able to play content in the game with having a fancy weapon skin.” Linken? You mean ‘compare’ right? No maybe you can’t, for example for me not being able to do the highest level raids would be less of a problem then having the fancy weapon skin behind an never ending brainless grind.

Nike.2631:

Lets be perfectly clear:

The “no grind” policy extends to a full set of Exotic gear. Full Stop. Done. Finito.

EVERYTHING beyond that does and is intended to require MASSIVE investment of playtime or real money.

And as far as that goes they’ve succeeded brilliantly. Putting exotic gear on a freshly minted 80 is trivial. Mission accomplished. Job well done.

Ascended tier was added specifically to provide a gear progression activity that takes ages or heaps of money for people who like chasing that type of carrot. Rare skins like Infinite Light or Mjolnir have always required monumental effort, mostly gated through lodestones. Rare minis are truly rare. High end Achievement point skins take months if not years of dedication to unlock. Cultural armor is a serious investment in gold for the casual player.

This is not an accident, and it’s not going to change.

But it is bad nonetheless.

Ayrilana.1396:

Devata.6589:

Required grind does not exist in a game because a game is optional.

I’m sorry but that’s inaccurate and flawed reasoning. Stating a game is optional has no bearing as to whether content locked behind a repetitive method of acquisition is in fact a grind or not.

Think of it in another way. Let’s say that in order for players to even start the game, they have to left click 1 million times. Then upon each level they get, they have to left click another 1 million times. All of this clicking is in order to progress in the game. Now by your argument, this game contains no grind because that game is optional.

I understand that there are people that tend to use the “game is optional” argument but it is flawed. Anything that is optional can still have grind that is required in order to experience some or all of the content within.

“I’m sorry but that’s inaccurate and flawed reasoning.” No it’s not.

“Stating a game is optional has no bearing as to whether content locked behind a repetitive method of acquisition is in fact a grind or not.” You are completely right. But making this out of what I said is flawed reasoning.

I simply said it was by definition not ‘required’. I do not talk about content being locked behind something. Not to mention that ‘content’ can be explained in many ways. Collecting those cosmetics is also considered ‘content’ by many and that is locked behind a repetitive method of acquisition. What makes in double flawed.

“Let’s say that in order for players to even start the game, they have to left click 1 million times.” While this would come the closes to definition of ‘required’ in a game it’s a completely unrealistic example (I don’t know any game where you would need to grind before you would be able to get into the game itself).

“Then upon each level they get, they have to left click another 1 million times.” That is only ‘if’ you want to get to the second level. There is always stuff you can do at level 1 and maybe that’s just fine for you. Getting to the next level is always a choice.

“Now by your argument, this game contains no grind because that game is optional.” Wait whut? I did not say it was not grind, I said it was not required! That is something else! What btw does not make it any better, let me also be clear about that.

The problem is that some people tent to consider grind to reach their personal goals as ‘required’ grind while the grind other people need to do to achieve their goals as optional grind they choose to do.

“Anything that is optional can still have grind that is required in order to experience some or all of the content within.” Yes, I never said this was not the case. In fact, that is my point. All grind is optional, that does not make one type of grind worse than another type of grind by definition. It’s a personal thing. It’s bad for you if it locks what you want.

CureForLiving.5360:

Broken Arietta.4631:

Grind the Silverwastes for a chance at getting 1000g drops
Grind fractals for a chance at the fractal tonic
Grind fractals for a chance at the fractal weapon skins

Grind the Silverwastes for a chance at getting into the beta

So fed up of this.

Think this has come up a few times already, but here’s my take: grind – mandatory, needed for progress (level grinding, gear grinding etc). Farming – optional, needed to gain items not necessary for progression (skins, tonic etc.).
So you’re farming not grinding.

Thats the difference between horizontal progression and vertical progression, only you then forget horizontal progression is also progression.

The definitions are kinda hard but when you grind for some currency to get what you want (being it an item, or a level) I consider it grinding. While if you work direly towards getting what you want without some currency in the way I consider it farming.

Then again, the drop-rate can also say something about it. If people want to get mats for a craft and can get it in half a hour they usually say “gonna farm some mats” but when they need a lot of it and it takes days they say “I’m grinding mats” On the other hand, if you need a lot of mats the mats become more of a currency. Also if a farm for a single item takes forever they usually say something like “This is an never ending grind”. So it’s a little vague.

It’s an Internet term so it has no exact definition but it’s something along those lines.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Everything the OP lists is a CHOICE….you don’t have to do any of those. If you’re sick of it you can STOP doing it at any point.

I would choose Anet’s type of “grind” (fully optional) over other developers that REQUIRE you do the GRIND to advance the game…..

Required grind does not exist in a game because a game is optional. A lot of people say WoW is one of those grindy games because you ‘had to grind’ to do the highest level raids.

Thing is, I did not care for the highest level raids, so I did not need to grind.

With grind in a game it’s always an ‘if’. IF you want X you need to grind. If you want to do the highest level raids in WoW you need to grind, if you want cosmetics, toys (and so on) in GW2 you need to grind.

You might find completing those highest level gear ‘advancing’ other find getting a full collection of toys, or the best looking armor ‘advancing’.

Would we want to point one of the two type of grind at worse, for a game that is so much focused on cosmetics ans GW2, I would consider the grind for those cosmetics worse.

none.9681:

~20G for near-best gear in PvE/WvW (except for high-level Fractals)
Free best ‘gear’ in PvP

So much grind!

But then again, who cares for near-best gear?

My point is, you might but for other BiS gear is something they don’t care about. They care about cosmetics, skins, toys. Basically the things this game focuses on. You could say, for them, near-best gear is not defined by stats but by looks.

People who leave comments like you do seem to think stats is what it’s all about and should be all about for everybody, but thats simply not how it works in an MMO. Many people care more for a cool looking mini then ascended stats.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Of course, farming can FEEL like grinding if the drop rate for the item you want is very low or the costs for something you want are very high.

And when the task are boring (while a good reward can reduce that a little), and when there is a similar grind for the next item you like, and the next, and the next and the next.

As long as you can work directly towards something by farming for the item you like (when the drop-rate is doable) and you mix it in with other items you be rewarded directly by completing something (like completing a dungeon or some quest) it’s still oke.

Problem in GW2 is that most things are grind, grind, grind gold and then buy it. That gets extremely boring and devalutates the item. Then you can have the best movement system of any mmo and come with many other interesting and innovating things. This part of the game will stay boring.

The tonic would imho be one of the better ‘ways’ to have farms in a game (while still, direct ways of obtaining items is the best, some farming will always be there for re-playability) because you would be able to directly work towards it without the gold grind in the way. But the problem here is that it has drop-rate of about 1 / 344 and its time-gated because it drops from the daily chest. So after you reach level 41 you would still need to do Fractals every day for over half a year to have a 1 / 2 drop chance. What makes it go over the top after-all making it indeed just another boring grind.

It’s really sad that for many cosmetics these grinds (and then mainly gold grinds) are what GW2 is about. It’s funny that when talking about this specific element of the game, when I say I prefer cosmetics over stats and I like to hunt them down or collect them people say “well maybe this game is not for you” and for this part of the game that is true I guess.

But the sad part is, that it should be my game. You make a game all about cosmetics that you promote with a no grind philosophy, where stats are less of a thing… and then make those cosmetics a boring grind, meaning the game is not really for people who like to collect or hunt down these cosmetics if they are not the type of people who like to brainlessly grind all day.

I get the thinking process from a commercial viewpoint. Attract people who like cosmetics and dislike grind. Then make that part a grind (the excuse is then that there is no grind for stats so then that grind does not count.. whatever) then give a players the option to skip the grind by spending money.
The only problem is that that only works very well for a while.

Beldin.5498:

Ravenmoon.5318:

I never stated TESO has Dx 12. No current game has Dx 12 for the obvious reason that the SDK is not out yet.

Yeah .. but since the talk here is all about that we need DX12 because better performance
and then you bring TESO as an example for better performance, it sounds as if DX12
would be the reason.

I don’t know how the performance of TESO really is, however if it is really better
ist maybe also better in DX9, and that has maybe just because they use very
clunky animations, and there is not much eyecandy there, why GW2 has often
simply an effect overkill.

DX11 in LotRO was also worse than DX9 when i tested it, and i switched back
to DX9 after very short time.

DX11 should run faster then DX9 if you where to use the same things you did when using DX9.

The big difference is that when you enable DX11 in most game you also enable new / better graphical features that obviously cost more / additional cycles from the GPU (and possible CPU) decreasing the total FPS. That makes perfect sense.