I love the armchair economists speaking with authority on these results. I wonder how many posts until we get to " … and so you see, this is why Anet needs to eliminate grind" or " … and so you see, this is why <precursors> or <mounts>"
Was it not you that in the other thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy-1/page/4#post5026189 was trying to dis-miss the grind-problem acting as a armchair economist?
In the thread where I said expansions would be a good way to focus on in stead of the cash-shop (indeed so they could move away from the grind, as that thread was about grind). You even dismissed that because I was comparing GW1 to GW2 to come to that conclusion.
You are right, these numbers do not say anything about grind, or precursors or mounds. But they do say something about expansions.
That’s good Gw2 managed to raise some eyebrows, hopefully they can raise that number higher when the Xpack drops.
Side note, Wildstar needs to swallow their pride and go F2P already. Every time I see WS all I need is numbers falling rather quickly. I don’t see how doing that will impact them negatively. (Tera and Rift did the same thing, they are very much successful currently. They aren’t NCSoft but you get the point.)
“hopefully they can raise that number higher when the Xpack drops.” Obviously they can. The important question will be how income will go in the half year after HoT gets released. Will it manage to stay stable at a higher income (of course it will always drop a little after the initial release of the expansion) or will it be back at where is was in Q4 of 2014 when we are half a year later. (so if it released at the end of Q2 / beginning Q3 then the results of Q4 and Q1 will be most important for GW2) when looking at it for the longer run. It will be really interesting to see them, while we probably will know how it will go fast enough when playing HoT.
The expansion certainly increased hype. I just hope they release before Q2 is over or I suspect the numbers will be in free fall. There hasn’t been a content update in months and not even a release date for the expansion yet. It seems Anet put everyone on the expansion and forgot the game is still live.
Though once the expansion launches I suspect it will be a big boost to GW2.
Poor Wildstar. That game had a ton of potential, but it was just lacking something. I can’t even put my finger on it, but it is the first MMO i’ve ever played that I didn’t even make it to max level. Awesome combat though.
While I did never play it, I did always wonder what the buzz was all about. It was basically WoW with alien cashed in it. It’s a mix I don’t think really fits. Then they did throw in some Team Fortress / Battlefield Heroes and used that cartoon style / humor. I just always wondered how the humor would keep working in a game like that. It works great in trailers but in-game?
Lastly they introduced this ‘great’ combat mechanism Combat Telegraphs. They made trailers about that.. it are lines / area’s on the floor you need to stay out of. That is not fun. People already complain about the dodging out of circles in GW2, but Wildstar’s telegraphs is 10 times worse / immersion breaking.
They also said they do not need to reinvent the wheel so can look at other games like WoW and they are 100% right (in fact, GW2 did try to hard to be different for the sake of being different. While they did come back on the a little)… but if they then also ask a subscription, why would people go from another game to that game? If it was B2P or likely even F2P it would have probably be more successful and made more money. However, again in an effort to try and increase result they lowered result. The same problem as GW2 has only with Wildstar was way, way worse.
But again you must read the reactions of the ppl in every forums and games …
GW2 Devs must takes the holidays Breaks (Christmass + Summer) = that means -3 less contents months
an extra —3 or -4 if the need time to create the next x-pack
= that means with yearly x-pansions there will less conent ingame (just like last year , when the game launhed in China or even this year content)……
Even the ppl in WoW hate it … and neither we have the next date for the WOw x-pack (they original planned 1 yeal x-packs – that one that the old gg are w8 to listen…)And your idea of less money = that automatically GW2 will goes into the ’’passive’’ mode where it will stop risking to inovate things and will adopt the other games behavour , where they will w8 and copy-paste other games riskless ideas …
Cant you understand that ?
Or shall be harsh enought to be Banned again for 10 days , while i atacked a prestigious PvE raider in a CDI ?
The current model resulted in less money, what I suggested was more based on the numbers. And as you see in results posted by the OP, even the mention of a expansion increases income. You can keep repeating it’s not what some people want, but the numbers seem to proof otherwise.
Can’t you understand that?
And about how it would not be possible to release an expansion in a year or you would get less content. Likely the biggest part of HoT has been build in a year because the Chinese release was only a year ago (tomorrow, to be exact) and before their attention shifted to the Chinese release they where still very much focused on the LS approach of releasing content in stead of expansions. So while they for sure will have some things in HoT that will have been worked on for a longer period, HoT will likely have been build mainly in a years time (and a few months).
“Or shall be harsh enought to be Banned again for 10 days , while i atacked a prestigious PvE raider in a CDI ?” So you think that if you attack somebody you are right? Well that maybe that is the problem?
It really amazes me how, even with these numbers, you can still try to claim yealy expansions are not the way to go. Living story, after living story income did decrease. Q4 of 2014 had multiple LS released, however, income was still lower, and that for a Q4 that is usually higher. Q1 only had one LS release, the big difference is that it was when the HoT expansion was announced, and incomes increases again. These numbers only back up my story about how yearly expansion are the way to go.
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If with HoT they manage to get rid of the never ending grind, and get a fun game gain where collecting becomes fun game-play then this game might have a long life-spawn, if not, I expect it will scale down after that.
Because i will get bored to say to you the same things , when the x-packs launches (will have other targets) , lets do this again ….
4% of the population in WoD did rep farming to get ‘’vanity items’’ , as oposed in the previous x-pansions where those items offered Power/boost for raids/pvp
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1747902-Reputations-in-WoD-an-absolute-failure
So the ’’most’’ ppl that left GW2 , because they couldnt hunt the items ingame and not in the gem store its not true :PPPl hate the idea for yearly x-packs + 3 months updates as you can see here in the forums (also in the moo champion poll)
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1773793-Do-you-want-a-1-year-expansionIn every game , there is a population drop after an x-pack
(WoD -30% population , -2,9 million ppl)GW1 x-packs made 7 million per year
GW2 cant subtain itself with those numbersEdit : If you want more items/gear in game , you wish will come true .
If you wish , less gem/gold transaction cost , i almost can guarantee it .
But if i see some old conversations again , i will Kamehame my pc :P
Your example of where people did not want it is WoW, a P2P game. Sure, I would not want yearly expansion and a sub as well. Yearly expansion would be the B2P way of earning money so it would not need to have a sub and not to have the cash-shop focus.
Multiple people including me also did explain you multiple times you can’t compare GW1 to GW2 in exact numbers. So the 7 million is a irrelevant number. Want to compare GW1 to GW2 then use initial sale as 100% and then compare the income after a year / with the release of an expansion to that 100%. GW2 made with its expansions (campaigns) on average 100% of the money they made with the initial sale, GW2 does not even come close to that. Anyway, this has been explained so many times to you, it’s probably a waste of time.
It is nice to see that the HoT did manage to get numbers up again. It shows how people are more interested in expansions as in the Living Story approach as no LS was able to do that, while only the announcement of an expansion does. Of course also the sales will have helped a lot to attract new peoples and from existing players who did buy a second account.
At the same time I notice in game that many of the people who came back during the announcement already left again, coming back when HoT really gets released. So if HoT gets released in Q3 and there will be no special events until then I expect again lower income in Q2.
Big question is how HoT will be sold (I expect good, while not as good as it could have been because of some of the damage done) and how it performs the half a year after release (so basically Q4 or more Q1). That will be very important for the long-longevity for GW2. If with HoT they manage to get rid of the never ending grind, and get a fun game gain where collecting becomes fun game-play then this game might have a long life-spawn, if not, I expect it will scale down after that.
Wow this silly thread is still running (and stupidly I´m bumping it).
Less than 10% of people reading this probably even have a true Dx12 hardware compatible GFX card.
Direct X 12 will be used on Fermi (and beyond) Nvidia GPUs, which includes GeForce 400s first released on April 12, 2010, about 5 years ago. So you are saying that only 10% of players are using more “recent” hardware?
TRUE DX12 HARDWARE.
Only the latest 9xx Nvidias and the latest AMD are that.
The most important thing Dx12 does is solving a software (API) problem. The hardware part is indeed only supported by the latest hardware and even that cannot yet be confirmed, but the big thing, the performance increase is mainly a software change and so there is no need for the true Dx12 hardware for that part.
That is also the main reason people here talk about Dx12, for the performance increase.
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I do think they should move to monthly content updates when they start the updates again, and not bi weekly. More time to play, and more time for them to develop.
Or even better, to yearly expansions. More time to develop, another source of income that allows them to put rewards in fun ways in the game in stead of behind a grind or in a cash-shop.
Well Anet can’t say they have not been warned for what you mention as your second and third point.
Piken Square for sure is or was the best EU server, especially for RP people but also for PVE in general and it even does good in WvW.
Mega-servers did however destroy that a little. Then again, if you are a RP guy then at the least if your guild go’s into WvW you can join them. So even with the damage from the mega-server I think it’s worth switching.
I bought GW2 because a friend of mine has been playing it on and off for a few years now, and always seems to return back for more content. So, I had to try it, because MMO’s I’ve played before weren’t attracting me anymore and were mostly Pay-to-win games. I was pleasantly surprised how easy and fluently story and leveling goes on, that you don’t need to buy items from mall to get better and that you actually have quite equal ground with more seasoned players.
OP just never had to endure 10+ hour grinds of games like MapleStory, Tales of Pirates 2 and many more I’ve tried over the years.
GW2 gives you option to put in some time and effort into game, so you can buy desired item from their item mall for your hard earned gold, an option that wasnt present in any MMO I’ve ever played.
Nobody here claims it’s P2W, but in many F2P MMO’s that are not P2W you still see a boring grind for cosmetics (what for many people is just as, or even more important than stats / p2w items) and that is the same grind he feels here and complains about.
You seem to forget that this game was supposed to be a B2P game, so a game that makes it money with the game-sales (while that will likely not be sufficient when you don’t release your first expansion until 3 years after release) and so it should not be like those other F2P games that are completely dependent on the cash-shop, the comparison is wrong. Besides that, something is not good, simply because there are others that are even worse.
“ Fun impacts decisions. Every time you finish a dungeon you get tokens you can trade in for reward items that you want, rather than having a small chance of getting it as a drop, because it’s more fun to always get rewarded for finishing with something you want to have!”
That is not fun to begin with. Let’s say I need 50 tokens to get the item I want and I get one token per run.
Then I do one run and I know I still need to do 49 more. How much ‘fun’ does the reward of the one token five me? None whatsoever. The token is completely useless for me until I have them all 50. Getting that one token does not feel fun of rewarding to me at all. Because I am not after the token but after the Item I need 50 tokens for.
That means I am simply grinding along, seeing the numbers of tokens going up until it reaches 50. That is not fun.
A token system like this is good, but should be something for along the way as a side thing. The rewards you get with the tokens should be a ‘nice to have’ but in general not something people are specifically after. You should be doing the dungeon for another reason (that can be multiple) but if for example you are unlucky with the RNG reward at the very least you do get those ‘nice to have’ items along the way.
Now put in an item with a 1/50 drop-rate. This would mean that the item drops on average 1 in 50 times. I can be lucky and it will drop sooner or unlucky and it will drop later. Likely what happens is that when I do different content for different items, one time I’m lucky, the other time I’m unlucky but my average drop-rate should be around the actual drop-rate.
When this is implemented then every time I complete the dungeon there is the rush of ‘will it drop’ and that rush alone makes it way more fun while at the same time you know on average it will drop once every 50 runs. Would that have been combined with the token system, then even if you where unlucky and you had to do it 100 times before it dropped, at the very least you did get some ‘nice to haves’ along the way.
So the way Colin describes it, it’s already not fun but a boring grind.
Now about the RNG OP talks about. Yeah while I say, RNG would be better there, I talk about a ‘doable’ RNG. Like the 1/50, depending on the content and the rarity that can also be 1/100 or 1/250. Basically the same as the numbers of runs you would need to do when you have a token system in place.
That however is not to be compared with the RNG as it is in GW2 like with the portal. There is no real working towards that item. With an extreme low RNG of 1/10000 or less (not sure what the drop-rate on the portal is, but this holds true for a lot of items that do drop in the game) then RNG is not fun, or really not anything you can do much with. Then it becomes more ‘luck’ of getting it.
Meaning people grind there heads of and indeed might still end up with nothing.
From a luck perspective it would be more like if you had my example of 1/50 but then only had 10 runs you could do.. So if you get it, has indeed to do far more with luck then with anything else.. And then it’s not fun anymore indeed.
So to summarize it.
- Tokens (currency) can be good, but only as a secondary option, make it the main way and it becomes a boring grind.
- RNG can be more fun by giving the “will it drop rush” but only if the drop-rate is within limits (this also depends on the content.. When I simply have to crush eggs by running in a room filled with hundreds of thousands of eggs a 1/10000 isn’t much at all)
- The RNG as we have it in game, where it’s completely unreasonable and so does not allow you to really work towards getting something specific (other then grinding gold for those items where that is possible) is indeed not fun.
So here you have a problem why the game feels to grindy.. what is not fun.
There was one occasion when the game did reward high skill, and regular players went bananas. Remember that fuss over the Liadri mini and title?
Honestly, Liadri was just a DPS race and required relatively little skill. Also, her attacks insta-killed any sort of pet or summon (including ranger pets, which is just lazy programming on Anet’s part).
I beat her by circle-strafing her with a shortbow, and would have done it quicker if not for the aforementioned “pet dies instantaneously” thing.
True, but still is what way, way, way better then the grind there is for 90% of the other ‘rewards’ (meaning, gold to buy what you want) in the game.
So Liadri is a good example in what direction the reward system should go. Do content x for item y. The more challenging the content the ‘better’ the item, and with better I pretty much mean more shiny as that is what this game is about.
Maybe you can even have an item with multiple stages. Do x and get item y, do x better and get the upgraded version of item y and do it even better and also get some shiny effect for item y. Where better should not always be faster be maybe a more challenging version of content x.
Many of the the best looking items should be behind interesting fun but challenging content, or content that takes a long time (while not being repetitive) and mix that in with some items you also get from doing specific content but with a doable RNG. So not the RNG we see now in GW2. Then you would have a nice reward system.
The best (looking) items should never simply be behind the longest brainless grind or you can buy by spending cash.
~
While off-topic, I didn’t say or mean they abandoned the LS. However there was a time they wanted to release expansion-like content with the LS instead of with expansions. They clearly said “if we do this (LS) right, we don’t ever get / need an expansion”. Back then the monthly and later bi-weekly updates where also much more strict. That is the old LS approach I talked about they changed. Now it are expansions mixed with the LS that has less strict updates. If you ask me they could go back to the LS as it with the first few updates. Very small patches that simply made a little story go on.
Back then the refugees came in, then signs got placed, then they settles in, meanwhile the tower that got destroyed with the Karka invasion was build up part, by part. For me that did feel way more like an ongoing story that just as well could go unnoticed, like many things happening in the world. They could then lead up to an expansion that would really add new content.
It was in fact back around the time that they started to speed up the LS, that imo things started to go bad. Items being added to the cash-shop every patch that are a grind to get, back then the LS was temporary so also additional temporary grind. And with their decision at that time to go for the LS approach it automatically did mean a more cash-shop focus.
Anyway, it’s that LS approach they came back up, that does not mean they abandon the LS. I do expect more LS while not completely sure it will be exactly the same as we did see in LS2. Depending on HoT sales and income / popularity afterword’s they might try to keep a similar focus on the LS or might shift a little more to expansions.
But your right, it’s a long stretch they would really shift to yearly expansions or at least drop the cash-shop focus in way to reduce the grind and change the main source of income. The fact that topics about these subjects get closed as soon as they see an excuse to do so, says a lot about how they feel about the subject. I just notice that the last “no grind philosophy” thread got closed. That is 3 in a row, and why? Probably because a few of the last posts where trolling. They don’t punish the troll but close the thread. So I am very much aware how Anet looks at it, yet I am convinced they will get to the point where they get forced to make a decision how to continue with the game because the current approach is not working as it should. They can now put fingers in their ears, close their eyes and cream ‘lala’ 9what is the worse you can do) but there is a point they can’t do that anymore.
Personally I did not play GW1. I knew it, had friends who played it, but did not play it myself as it was not my game. I expected this kiddy amusement park, remember, I like to hunt down cosmetics. However the amusement of doing an activity and winning a toy tuned out to be a grind, and then there was also the toy-shop that sold the same toys.
“You don’t have an X because you were good, just lucky” or because you grinded. This is what I am asking for right. Get x because you complete y (so also because you are ‘good’). Not because you got ‘lucky’ or grinded your brains out. Basically, that paragraph of you says the same as I ask for. However I do see a correlation with the current used model and the system as we have it now. That’s F2P-like model OP is talking about.
(edited by Devata.6589)
So i suppose they should just start handing these items out then? Here you go, 50 appearance changes a day, oh you want to rename your character 500 times a day? Sure, here you go.
You got what you paid for, you don’t need ANY of these items to play the game to its full extent. Don’t want to grind? Buy gems, it’s kindergarten logic. You should kitten and be happy that you can get these items without paying real money, and getting gold in gw2 isn’t exactly very hard either.
I don’t think Mightybird is asking for them to be handed out. He simply says that when he pays for a game he does not expect a (F2P) model like this. That is at least what I make from it.
If it was locked behind some interesting content I don’t think he would complain, but it’s not, it’s behind a grind like you see in F2P games, the ones you usually don’t pay for. I think that is his complain here.
For me it’s not about the money, I have no problem spending money on the game, but I don’t buy a game to buy addition items for in it (and so I won’t spend money on gems). I have a game to play it, and for me, playing an MMO also means collecting those items in the game.. in a fun way, not in a boring grind.
“Don’t want to grind? Buy gems, it’s kindergarten logic.” Yeah that is indeed kindergarten logic. The cash-shop model is based on people using this kindergarten logic. Obviously it does not have much to do with playing a game, but some people seem to buy a game to buy other items for in it?
~
Well for GW2 I was in for the long run. Looking for a game that could stand the test of time, just as a game like WoW that is still going strong over 10 years after it’s release.
I do not like to move between mmo’s. You might think different about that and I respect that, but that is not what I am looking for in an MMO.
GW2 had imho on paper everything that could give it that long life, but then it turned into to this grind because of it’s current model.
Sure, I know it’s a long stretch that they will change it, but they wanted temporary content, then came to the conclusion that that did not work so changed it. They wanted the LS approach in stead of expansions and notice it didn’t worked so changed it. I am think (depending in HoT) they might be finding out this grindy model does not work for them. The question is then, what will they do? Look at some of these post, look at GW1 and go for that approach? Biggest problem is that by that time it might be to late, I already think they did some irreversible damage, but we will see. At least I did warn them in time.
If only these type of topics make people more aware of how models effect games there might be a demand for games using another model and that might help the gaming-industry. So I have no problem in participating in them. It won’t do any harm and might maybe do some good.
In the end, all I can do is post these sorts of comments and that’s it, so that is what I do.
(edited by Devata.6589)
~
What exactly is your point here? If you compare Q1 of 2014 GW2 still made 25142 mn krw, while in Q4 it was 19272 mln krw. In fact, for the bigger MMO’s, in Q4 only Wildstar earned less. So while over the complete year 2014 GW2 did do it pretty well, there is a decline what resulted in GW2 being one of the least profitable in Q4. This decline has also been ongoing for a longer time. Compare for example the total income of 2014 85634 mln krw to the 123317 mln krw in 2013.
And like you say yourself, NCsoft invest in the company so it very much impacts the development. Last October it did a round of layoffs, not touching Anet at the moment. I am not sure if they can directly lay off people at Anet but when they invest lest in Anet the end result will be the same. If half a year after HoT GW2 is at the same point it was in Q4 of 2014 it’s not unlikely they do in fact lower investments going to Anet and that is what I talked about.
Now talking about these numbers is all very nice but in the end the subject here is the grind, and why it feels like a F2P. That is simply because it makes it’s money with a similar system as most F2P games, the cash-shop focus.
That makes the topic or question more a game-play perspective. What I did try to mention in my comment where I did touch this subject is that if people dislike the content, that is not good for the game so it should not simply be dismissed with “well the game is not for everybody” as Endrance did. Because if to people dislike it, you have a problem, it’s bad for the game. It’s that simple.
This is the entertainment industry. It’s important that people like it, and sure not everybody has to like it but if the group disliking it becomes to big, or rather the group liking it, to small, that is bad.
There is a lot of grind, and all the topics that talk about this show that many people dislike it. If the game then feels like a grindy F2P because it basically works as a F2P then maybe you should rethink that.
People who leave comments like you do seem to think stats is what it’s all about and should be all about for everybody, but thats simply not how it works in an MMO. Many people care more for a cool looking mini then ascended stats.
This thread has the title: “No grind philosophy”
The communicated “not grind philosopy” from A-Net for GW2 is ONLY about stats/levels. It is not about looks, achievements, legendaries, etc, etc…
Thats why some people focus on stats when we talk about the “no grind philosophy”, because for everything else there is no “no grind philosopy” in this game.
Anet indeed said that (2,5 years after release) but if you read OP’s post he clearly talks about cosmetics, and besides that, you see this being mentioned in many grind topics, also those that don’t have the name ‘no grind philosophy’.
But this thread has the title “no grind philosophy” . So, are you saying, OP choose a wrong title because he/she did not understand A-Nets “no grind philosophy” ?
Does it really matter? Maybe Anet use a misleading term making people believe it did mean they wanted to prevent as much grind as possible. Because that is what the term says does it not? It does not say… ’No grind for stats or at least being able to grind for it in multiple ways philosophy’. What is pretty much as Colin described it a month or so ago.
It’s the same as saying “no meat philosophy” on a can with soup. And then when people complain there is a lot of pork meat in it the company would come with the statement “Or no meat philosophy only concerns cow meat”. Is it really strange that is people read “No meat philosophy” they expect the company to simply not want to use meat and if they see “no grind philosophy” they expect the company to keep the grind to a minimum? I don’t think that is strange at all.
So if anything is wrong here, it’s how Anet defines the term, not how OP uses it.
More importantly is the question if it matters? Does it matter what Anet did mean? They might not ever talked in any way about limiting grind and still peoples complain about disliking the grind are completely relevant. It’s the entertainment industry so if people find something not entertaining that matters.
~
“Grind is your option” No, as soon as my objective is a cosmetic, it is ‘the’ only option (for most interesting cosmetics). Because if I want it, there is not some content I need to do (doing that is what I would see as the hunt for the item), no, there is an amount of gold I need, and so whatever I do is to get the gold to get the item, and that is what makes it a grind.
“No matter what it is you’re hunting down there are several non grindy ways to get them. You choose to ignore them.” No there are several ways to get the gold, and no matter what content I choose, I am doing those things for gold. So grinding it for gold.
It’s also not that I simply get the gold while playing along (well, except if you like the grindy content that makes you most money). But then again, I am also not asking for it to be easy to get the items.. what that would mean.
“If not please let me know what it is you’re hunting that you see no way of acquiring without grinding.”
I am not hunting any specific item, usually I simply come across an item I like and set my goal for it, but not in GW2 because of the way it works. Anyway, simply let’s take an average item from the cash-shop. I would like the Mist Herald Back Item Skin Set (well I would prefer a white version, but whatever). That is 500 gems = 97,05. And that is what it is.. a gold-number. There is no way for me to directly work towards that item without diving in a gold-grind. Also making 100 gold ‘just by playing’ usually takes me multiple months.. but then again, that is also not hunting down the item, is it? So what would ‘hunting down’ this item mean in GW2? It would mean doing dungeons for gold, and doing silverwastes for gold and then when I would have the Item and would go for the next one, Lord Faren’s Rapier Skin it’s another 100 gold so I would again have to start doing other things for gold, and so on, and so on. And that my friend, is a grind. Whether you like to accept it or not.
“Drytop access is locked behind a gear score you can only get after fully gearing a char in ascended gear. Now getting Ascended gear would be a mandatory grind for you because until you get that the game would just as well be death for you. you have no way of playing what you want” Now following what you say about cosmetics (that logic).. this is untrue. There is still a lot you can do other than dry-top. Then you can simply do those other things and earn the gear you need for dry-top that way. It’s not like you need to do dry-top. That is completely optional.
So the difference in your example is that you could fall behind in playing with your friends because of the gear, but let’s be fair, most mmo’s that use grind for gear to unlock content usually only have the real grind for a small part, and the last part of the content. Like the top raid dungeons. So even then you are only one tier behind, and as soon as an expansion gets released its again easy to get the gear until the then highest level content (also a good moment to catch up with your friends). So the difference would be, not being able to play the highest lever content together with your friends because you do not yet have that level gear. If you want to play that content with some friends that is.
“you’re forced to keep up. take a 6 month break and you’re guaranteed to never be able to play with your friends ever again.” So now ‘required’ is about playing with friends. And while I did not play all MMO’s out there, I did play multiple and know that in those cases this is not true. There is the leveling process (that also exists in GW2) and is usually pretty easy until the last few levels (where friends can help level faster) and then the gear grind really is only required for a very small part of the game, those highest level raids usually.
“No true, only the rare stuff like lion tickets skins are a grind. everything else with very few exception sell for less then 10g on tp how is getting 10g a grind?” The once selling for a few gold are usually not the ones people who like to collect cosmetics are after. There are still many cosmetics in between those 10 gold and the extreme rare ones of 1700 gold. Also those lion ticket skins are not even the most rare ones and there are many of them. You act like if that is like those few extremely special ones. They aren’t, but when you like to collect cosmetics, those lion ticker skins are the type of skins you are usually after.
“what people are trying to say here is that here you dont have a grind for the things you like to do at all” And what I say is that, that does not make it better and that that is also true for all grind. You don’t have to do dry-top and you don’t have to do the highest level content with your friends.
People who leave comments like you do seem to think stats is what it’s all about and should be all about for everybody, but thats simply not how it works in an MMO. Many people care more for a cool looking mini then ascended stats.
This thread has the title: “No grind philosophy”
The communicated “not grind philosopy” from A-Net for GW2 is ONLY about stats/levels. It is not about looks, achievements, legendaries, etc, etc…
Thats why some people focus on stats when we talk about the “no grind philosophy”, because for everything else there is no “no grind philosopy” in this game.
Anet indeed said that (2,5 years after release) but if you read OP’s post he clearly talks about cosmetics, and besides that, you see this being mentioned in many grind topics, also those that don’t have the name ‘no grind philosophy’.
@Devata
Still running MMOs
—————————
Lineage – 16+ years
Lineage II – 11+ years
GW – 10 years
AION – 6+ years
B&S – 2+ years
GW2 – 2+ years
Wildstar – 10 monthsClosed MMOs
—————————
Auto Assault – 16 months
Tabula Rasa – 15 months
Dungeon Runner – 31 months
City of Heroes – 8+ yearsYep, NCSOFT cashes out of one MMO and move on to the next leaving a trail of shuttered, previously successful MMOs in their wake. NOT
Now only if I talked about closing.
Secondly I said there was no need, that does not mean they won’t if they see it can stay profitable on the longer run (like L1). That is why I want a system that can stay interesting for a long time.
If I would think NCsoft would always move on to the next game no matter what, I would not have been interested in GW2 in the first place as I was looking for an MMO for the long term, not wanting to switch from one MMO to the next. But I don’t.
What I said was that there might not be the need for them to have all games being successful in the long run because they (can) move on to the next game. Because there is no need for NCsoft you should understand that that is not their primary goal. Moving on meaning development for the game gets shrunk down, gets less attention (that does not mean it gets abandoned completely) and focus / investments go to a new game. I never said anything about closing.
(edited by Devata.6589)
With the first part you completely dismiss the fact that hunting down such items is the preferred game-play for many.. that is for them ‘playing the game’ however, that must then not be a boring grind.
There is no item you ‘need’ there is no grinding you ‘need’. There are only goals and those goals might have challenging content to unlock those goals or have a never ending boring grind.
“While I am taking it easy I am still progressing towards my cosmetic of choice.” Also this is purely a theoretically truth. If you would play like this (while again, completely dismissing that hunting down items is the preferred game-play for many) you would hopelessly run behind. New items you might also like get added every month. So collecting is them already completely out of the question. But even only going for the ones you prefer the most will be a unrealistic task, if you add an item to your list of ‘things you want’ once every two month you would only run more and more behind. Not to mention that if a goal is to far away people also lost intrest.
In you first example of how you talk about getting an item without grinding you come to 2 – 5 months. So that would be 3,5 months on average. So if you started to collect such items at release you would soon (3 years later) be able to get your 10th item. (And personally I do not get 3 rares a day but that’s also because I do not play a lot at the moment. Hoping for better times with HoT)
Theoretically it’s all nice, currency
I am not dismissing it, I am saying that this optional grind never blocks you from pursuing your target unlike how mandatory grind blocks you from playing what you want to play.
You understand that those things you consider optional is what many people prefer to do / go for and the things you see as important (like the LS) might be things other people don’t care for.
If I like to hunt down cosmetics, if that is how I like to play (and it is) the only way to do it, is to grind. Just as much as your example where gear grind would mean your preferred game-play, the LS, is locked behind that grind.
What is bad for you depends on what you prefer to do. The grind you have to do to get to your goal is just as bad for you as the grind is for those who like to go after cosmetics. Both keep getting added so running behind is also possible in both cases.
“Thats night and day to what we have… yes It still will take me months to get a vision of the mists or a corrupted staff etc.. But they’re never a need and thus I have several ways to avoid the grind on my way to the cosmetic goodness.”
Wait, so because you like to do the LS that is a ‘need’ while the cosmetics isn’t. Both are not a need. In fact I did not complete the last LS yet because I did not feel like is.. so where is the need for that? And just as there are multiple ways to grind for cosmetics there would be multiple ways to grind for gear if that was to be the case.
“Dont forget we’re talking about the rarest of the rare stuff here.” not really, many ‘special’ cosmetics are a grind. Not just a few of the most rarest. Also with gear grind, only some of the hardest content is locked behind the most grind. 99% of the content you can do with gear much more accessible. So again, no much changes.
I completely understand what you are trying to say, but the problem is that it really does matter on what you prefer. Having a grind for the things you like (to do) is always bad. What people like simply difference.
The fundamental problem with MMOs is that the players burn through content quicker than it can be made and released. I find dynamic events still fun after all these years. And I tend to hang around only on three low level maps. And I’m putting in maybe 10 to 20 hours a week if that. Call me odd but I like doing DEs while strip mining maps of their mats unless I’m rushed for time.
I’m not tired of Maw for instance. It’s comfortable and it’s fun seeing all those players in one place. It’s as fun as riding on a same local rollercoaster for the 20th time. It’s old hat but I still enjoy it, well the screams of my fellow passengers.
Hmm, maybe I should roll an Asura next then.
Agree entirely with your post here. I’ve been playing GW since Prophecies and have run with ANet ever since. That isn’t to say I have not had issues with specific aspects, however the game as it is works wonderfully for me. The Maw isn’t boring, I still enjoy fighting Claw of Jormag, just as much I still enjoy running my toon through low level areas and stripping mats from an entire map. The often described tedious process of crafting a Legendary, which I’ve done, as well as crafting ascended gear is really satisfying. I mentioned this in a previous post but what it comes down to is instant gratification. Society today demands results without expecting too much work, there is a sense of entitlement. ANet runs things the way they do because it does work and as much as people may complain they still log in everyday. Not everyone is going to be happy and that is all there is to it. Some of you may say, “Well it’s players that think like that who will ruin this game, this is why people leave”. The reality is that this game is not for everyone and some people should leave. I don’t mean that to be harsh or even offensive, but for those seeking an experience that is, as the last poster described, more of a sprint with quicker results then a different game may be the answer.
Obviously there are people who like it, there is no denying that. There are still elements of the game I like, while cosmetic hunt is something I usually love in MMO’s and not even a little in GW2. Also there simply are people who like to grind.
That however does not mean it is not a problem and that is can be dismissed. A trend of this model is that it works well in the beginning, people are more willing to spend money on the cash-shop, but in the longer run it means people burn out. I did warn for this trend ever since I notice this was the road Anet was talking, half a year after release. Income has only been decreasing ever since.
For a company, like NCsoft that might not be a problem, they cash the money and move on to the next game. Longevity is not per definition something a company like that is after, while it should and is something Anet is after (also proven by them going for HoT after the, LS instead of expansion approach, did not work out).
Also look at the number of threads in the first 3 pages that are directly or indirectly about the grind. It clearly shows there is a problem. So why I completely accept the game is working for people, including you, it does not mean this is not an issue that should be tried to solved.
“I mentioned this in a previous post but what it comes down to is instant gratification. Society today demands results without expecting too much work” This is however a you see a lot in the grind threads but is a completely unreasonable argument that really tries to dismiss it by naming people lazy. Sure there are people who want everything for nothing now! But that is not true for the vast majority of those complaining about grind. In fact, grind might not be the fastest way to get to a goal but it for sure is one of the most simplistic ones.
Many simply want other not so brainless ways of getting it. Reward for (challenging) content instead of reward for grinding. Liadri is not for nothing an example you see being mentioned a lot in these threads. Now is Liadri an example of result without much work? While I must agree.. a game should not feel like work, it does not main everything should be accessible easy and fast. Most of those complaining about grind are not asking for everything for nothing now!.
(edited by Devata.6589)
~
I believe ANet’s reason behind RNG was to eliminate forcing activities onto players. No do X to get Y, as Y can drop from any activity at any time. But that leads to the not getting anything desirable from drops most of the time which forces the player to the TP, whose fees and taxes help keep classical currency inflation under control, to sell the unwanted for coin to buy the wanted from other players.
~snap for space
There can be some truth in what you say.. a system with good intentions that took out bad and players who want rare items to easy.
However is that really the case? When you want people to be able to do many types of content to get the item they desire, you could hold the system of do x for y in place and simply make all items not account-bound. (personally I would prefer many items being account-bound as this adds more value to an item because now it really is a reward for that content. But that is not the point here.)
That way people can work directly towards the items they desire by doing that content and in the cases where that is combined with RNG (what will sometimes need to be the case for replay-ability) you can now keep a more acceptable drop-rate while keeping the same rarity. Make an item drop from many places and you need a way lower drop-rate to keep the same rarity but it also means there is no real direct in-game way to work towards getting them directly other than grinding gold.
So with do x for y means you can have more accessible items, other than grinding their brains out, for players who really want them, while still having the same rarity. But does not mean you don’t allow to grind (do other content) for it.
Now you would have a system that pushes people more into doing different types of content then doing ‘the most optimal gold grind’ as you have now. Because when done right, even when items are not account-bound, going directly for them will always be faster than grinding gold simply because gold price for the item will be based on the time to get it. This is only not true for content people grind anyway for other reasons or that happens to be very popular, in those cases items will still flood the TP making the gold-price drop.
This would also be fun game-play that can keep many people busy for months, while grind is boring content game-play for many that can also keep people busy for months but also burns out people.
Of course there is then also the problem of cash-shop items themselves as they per definition can only be grinded for.
When you have this ‘x for y’ system in place but with items not being account- bound, you do really have best of both worlds from a game-play point of view, but it would pretty much mean a no-go for the cash-shop model as items can’t be in a cash-shop (or only a few) and buying gold would not be as rewarding as now. So that is why I personally do believe the system is not just a good game-play intention that didn’t worked out as they planned, but they designed it to profit the their payment model while probably underestimating the grind it created. But you could be right, maybe their intentions where just good game-play and it happened to be good for their payment-model (for a while at least) while not working out so great from a game-play perspective (for those who dislike the grind).
You are completely right, a company needs to make money. That is also why I usually combine this subject with the talk about the game being sold as B2P and so they should have used a true B2P model where they focus on expansions (much like GW1) by releasing them on a yearly basis. I will not go much further into that now (there are many post you can read back from me, where I do) as it will then become a discussion about that model and what model would earn more, on what I show numbers to indicate expansion based model (B2P) might in fact earn more on what other people say you can’t say that for sure (what is true, as long as we don’t life in the parallel universe we only have the numbers to go by, but we will never know for sure how it would have worked out), and then Anet closes the thread for being off-topic. While obviously it isn’t because the two subjects are simply related, that’s also why you mention it.
But I can say, for me, I got interested in GW2 and not in the many F2P out there partly because of this. Those F2P games all have this grind and with a B2P game you would expect it not to be there, however GW2’s model is now very comparable with a F2P model for a commercial viewpoint at least focusing mainly on the cash-shop.
So yes they have to make money, but that does not mean there are no other ways to do that, there are, and so that by itself is not a very good excuse for the grind. It might be the reason, or it might be as you suggest, a design with good intention gone bad (for those who dislike grind) but it’s not a good excuse.
Grind means different things to different people, each with their own threshold to when repetitiveness to achieve some goal becomes to them grind.
Someone in another thread said logging in daily was, to them, a grind. To others clearing a map is a grind or farming for keys.
For many I think they feel the need to “grind” for gold because they don’t want to pay for gem shop items. Or they are looking at buying a precursor or shortcut ascended item crafting so they need the gold. They are willing to suffer to achieve their goal rather than loosening their purse strings a tad.
It’s around 10 gold per $1€. Also it’s always 80 gems per $1€ vs around 14 gold for 80 gems.
Or they want to play the game? Buying things is not playing a game. People don’t buy a game to be able to buy more stuff for in it (well, some seem to), but they buy it to play it, especially in a B2P game. But while unlocking such items in-game can be fun game-play in some games, it is a grind in this game.
Maybe you could turn it the other way around. You say people grind because they don’t want to buy, or maybe some buy so they don’t have to play… grind the game. What might explain why they design a game to be grindy?
why does gw2 feel like a grindy f2p?
A game which is all about skins and you have to pay € to get the transmutations.
And has many if not most skins in the cash-shop or behind a currency (mostly gold) grind that you can buy your way out of by buying gold or the item directly.
But then if people complain about that grind it does not count because it are not stats.. according to some people and even according to Anet as Colin stated with there ‘no grind philosophy’ they did not mean the cosmetic grind.
Smart marketing, while it only works for a limited time, until people get bored by the grind.
and by that I mean the nickle and diming grindy feel whenever you want to change your character’s appearance or have more than character 5 slots or more bank slots or….etc. Like I paid 50+ USD $ for it when it originally came out. Played since day 1. I’ve got like two, TWO pieces of cosmetics I’ve unlocked (like the special ones you can apply for free) . Seriously? There are f2p games with more cosmetic options for less time spent.
Sure there are random loot crap unlocks. I’m talking about looks you’d actually want on your character. I know the token thingys arent too hard to grind but they’re still a grind. for a paid model I should be able to change my appearance on a whim.
I did not read each and every post so forgive me if this has already been stated but having features that users pay for allows the game, and most of its content, to remain free. There is a sizable player population and the game gets consistent updates, promotions, and monthly events and these cost money. The alternative would look much like WoWs method of funding its upkeep: a monthly fee. Beyond that, this game allows you to purchase these digital extras by converting in game currency into gems, the same gems you can buy with actual cash. This adds real value to the in game currency, gold, silver, and copper, ergo you are getting merchandise for free by converting it. You are being rewarded for playing the game, as if playing a great game wasn’t reward enough.
Another alternative would be selling more regular expansions (like once a year), then the items can be in the game-world and so part of the game while not having the grind. In a way they are now selling a way out of the grind. So it’s not like this is it and the only other option is a P2P model.
What you are saying is pretty much, I settle for these negatives to not have the P2P negatives what is a choice but any F2P game out there can offer that what is exactly what OP is saying.
I don’t view the current system of things as a negative. I am tracking regarding what the OP is saying and the frustration is understandable but it’s not something I can commiserate with. Releasing expansions is great and it does bring in funds, absolutely, but releasing an expansion once a year does not guarantee stability for the game itself. It also creates deadlines and that often comes with rushed coding. If they were to schedule expansions that way it would mean having an estimate of what the profits would be and only being able to add to and regulate the game based on those profits. It’s a budgeting plan that limits what the developers can do and how much time and money they have to do it with. Building on and improving the game with regular small scale features using funding as it comes in creates a more balanced system and minimizes errors. It’s the same reason the servers don’t go down for updates. In most games, they build one huge update and then the servers go down and you wait while they implement changes. Updates for GW2 are constantly ongoing in the background allowing for sustained user access and smoother implementation.
Current income has also not been stable (has only been going down) and with the current model they wanted to have bi weekly updates so that is even more rushing.
So those two do not improve with the current system.
What somebody likes is personal but when you like hunting down cosmetics then the current system makes that a grind so it’s not strange many people dislike that.
and by that I mean the nickle and diming grindy feel whenever you want to change your character’s appearance or have more than character 5 slots or more bank slots or….etc. Like I paid 50+ USD $ for it when it originally came out. Played since day 1. I’ve got like two, TWO pieces of cosmetics I’ve unlocked (like the special ones you can apply for free) . Seriously? There are f2p games with more cosmetic options for less time spent.
Sure there are random loot crap unlocks. I’m talking about looks you’d actually want on your character. I know the token thingys arent too hard to grind but they’re still a grind. for a paid model I should be able to change my appearance on a whim.
I did not read each and every post so forgive me if this has already been stated but having features that users pay for allows the game, and most of its content, to remain free. There is a sizable player population and the game gets consistent updates, promotions, and monthly events and these cost money. The alternative would look much like WoWs method of funding its upkeep: a monthly fee. Beyond that, this game allows you to purchase these digital extras by converting in game currency into gems, the same gems you can buy with actual cash. This adds real value to the in game currency, gold, silver, and copper, ergo you are getting merchandise for free by converting it. You are being rewarded for playing the game, as if playing a great game wasn’t reward enough.
Another alternative would be selling more regular expansions (like once a year), then the items can be in the game-world and so part of the game while not having the grind. In a way they are now selling a way out of the grind. So it’s not like this is it and the only other option is a P2P model.
What you are saying is pretty much, I settle for these negatives to not have the P2P negatives what is a choice but any F2P game out there can offer that what is exactly what OP is saying.
Irrelevant. You are not “REQUIRED” to advance the game. You aren’t even “REQUIRED” to play the game at all.
You’re mixing context here. I do believe ‘required’ here is placed within the context of the game itself and its mechanics.
With grind in a game it’s always an ‘if’. IF you want X you need to grind. If you want to do the highest level raids in WoW you need to grind, if you want cosmetics, toys (and so on) in GW2 you need to grind.
Since most new content in WoW takes the form of raids you’d be excluded from a large potion of content if you do not grind for better gear. Access to gameplay content is being walled off. You can’t really liken not being able to play content in the game with having a fancy weapon skin. The only grind in GW2 is fractals and technically leveling, in all other regards there is no content with a barrier to entry that requires grinding.
New content being mainly raids? Every expansion they add new toys, mini’s, mounts, armor and weapons (skins), toys, ranger pets and so on, all having their own content behind it.
With MoP they added a type of Pokémon system for mini’s, so a complete new game mechanic mainly targeting these type of players. They have ‘fun crafts’ (that lets you create this sorts of items) like engineering, that get expanded every expansion. All those things can keep people busy until the next expansion.
So no, most new content is not raids. It’s also all these things. It is exactly what GW2 missis or has as a big grind, and for a game that is so focused on cosmetics and ‘casual players’ that is a big problem.
“You can’t really liken not being able to play content in the game with having a fancy weapon skin.” Linken? You mean ‘compare’ right? No maybe you can’t, for example for me not being able to do the highest level raids would be less of a problem then having the fancy weapon skin behind an never ending brainless grind.
Yes, and in nearly every case of what you mentioned up there about WoW, it is a grind. Don’t tell me it isn’t, because I do play WoW, and started in its Beta. So, I’ve been there for all the “versions” of what Blizzard has done with the game.
Even the Battle Pets are a grind, and not necessarily a fun one after the first 10-15 levels of it. But yet to even do the Battle Pet Menagerie quests for your Garrison in Draenor, you’d better darn well have some seriously high level, grinded, Battle Pets.
I did not consider it a grind but a fun hunt for items. Not like GW2 where cosmetics is a boring gold grind.
Many items there simply drop from a quest can so by no definition can you consider those a grind and then some are RNG but usually a more acceptable RNG.
For the battle pets, maybe leveling them is a grind, I simply collect them and maybe level a few in the process but would not try to level them all to a very high level. When you are leveling them t becomes again more of a stats thing what I do not care so much about.
So, OP is in a Buy-to-Play game as opposed to a Buy-The-Game-Pay-A-Monthly-Subscription-to-Play game, and he’s complaining about the grind or a cash shop?
I rarely proclaim this, but entitled much? You paid a one-time fee to play the game, the original game box/download buy in. No subscription fee (never mind a subscription fee WITH a cash shop, as is become common in the industry as well), and you’re complaining because some things are a grind, or you spend some cash in the shop?
Seriously?
1) MMOs have a grind. Get used to it, or might I suggest a non-MMO game.
2) Pretty much every MMO out there, F2P or subscription based, has a cash shop now where cosmetics are sold (and in many F2P games, real gear as well). GW2 has a very generous model. So, yes, if you want those super nice or rare cosmetics, you will grind them or buy them. That’s pretty much the MMO model. If that doesn’t work for you, than sadly the MMO style game is probably not for you.
He is in a game sold as B2P, not in a game sold as F2P but complains that the system feels to much like a F2P what is in fact true as at this moment GW2 generates most money from the cash-shop like F2P games do, not from game sales (including expansions) like true B2P games do.
Yes many games have cash-shops, B2P, F2P and P2P but usually there is a big difference and that is in how they focus on it for generating income. If they focus on it (like F2P games do as that is there only source of income) you can expect much more items in there and way less in the game, while with a true B2P game or a P2P game you would expect less focus on it so less items in there and more in the open world.
The real issue with this game is incredibly apparent from level 1 with any character, but I’ll relate my charrs experience: my character does 26 damage to an ascalonian ghost. NPCs do about 1. Maybe. Why is that bad? Because it’s stupid. Are you just another soldier in the Legion or are you some special snowflake? Because you sure as hell aren’t special outside of the personal story.
It’s like Iron Man thinking he’s one of a kind and incredibly powerful, only to find that there’s about 425,000 others who are either the EXACT same as him or slightly different. You aren’t unique. You aren’t special. You aren’t the only one that’s killed zhaitan, and even if you were, it’s not like killing him changed anything. Orr is the same whether Zhaitan is alive or dead, and I assume Maguuma will be the same way.
This is the nature of any MMO: all player characters are around the same power level and the persistent world is persistent. If it’s wrong in GW2 then it’s wrong in all of them.
Yeah, I don’t know what else to tell McNinja. If you want a game where your actions specifically affect the game world and the NPCs, I’d strongly suggest playing a single player RPG game.
Otherwise, what you described is the nature of MMOs. Outside of your personal story (if the game has one, such as GW2 or SWTOR), you do not affect the game world, NPCs, or events in any type of way except that you are one member of the player base that also got to experience that content. That’s it, nothing more. The game worlds are static such as they are to facilitate a vast player base online at the same time, as well as the new players that come into the game.
Eventually, we might see MMOs that could phase the game world as you complete things, such as what WoW (and some others) does with certain zones, questlines, and so forth. However, that opens another issue in that if your friends are not on the same phase of the same questline, you’re unlikely to be able to group with them. This specifically drove the wife and I nuts beginning with Cataclysm, when Blizzard went a little crazy with the questline phasing.
There are some ways that you can make players have impact in an open world other then phasing.
You would need to make a more sandbox game with more dynamic code.
For example, when people can really build there own houses (while still being limited to specific places) what you see in the world is based on what players build and so completely impacted by the payer. That also means it’s completely unpredictable.
EQ:N is getting a system where some mobs have a more dynamic code / AI for determining spawn-places. They get some preferences (a troll likes forest area’s for example) and so some area’s get marked as forest. But a troll also does not like to get killed. AI then looks for the best place to spawn the troll. You could then go even go one step further and let people cut down tree’s and plant tree’s (so removing and adding new forest area’s). Now if you kill trolls a lot in one area’s they will go to another area all based on player action.
So it is possible to make people have more impact in the game-world also in a MMO.
There’s absolutely 0 grind in this game. People confuse farming with grinding. I’ll probably keep repeating that across multiple threads until people get that into their heads
Farming is grinding.
Saying something is so doesn’t make it so. At least in the past, the two had quite different definitions.
But at least in Guild Wars 2 there are ways to farm without doing something repetitive. For example, doing the world boss train and running dungeons will give you gold. You can call it grinding for gold, but you’re actually always doing something different. The fire elemental isn’t anything like the Claw of Jormag or Tequatl.
Karma is something you farm, because you get it from doing everything. Again, you may not acknowledge that difference, but it doesn’t mean that difference doesn’t exist.
People have come to use the words interchangeably but they originally meant different things.
Looks to me like you turning the definitions around. Something like grinding xp to level is always something people consider or called grinding and you can do everywhere, just as grinding gold to buy your item.
Getting mats (that usually drops from one thing like iron drops from iron notes) they consider farming, just as killing a mob multiple times for a specific item it can drop.
Not that it matters much for the conversation, people dislike the way it works in GW2 whether you call it grinding or farming, but still looks like you are mixing the definitions of both words as much as there is a real definition.
There’s absolutely 0 grind in this game. People confuse farming with grinding. I’ll probably keep repeating that across multiple threads until people get that into their heads
Well there is not a very specific definition what what means what.
But in general you can say, when going after a currency just to be able to ‘buy’ what you want it’s a grind, like grind for XP just to get another level, grind for gold to buy the item you want and so on.
Farming on the other hand is going directly for an item. Kill a mob multiple times because that mob drops the item you want.
But when an farm becomes to extreme (to low drop-rate or you need like to many mats (then mats become a currency)) people stat naming it a grind as well.
There is nearly no farming going on in GW2, but a lot of grinding.
So now people are complaining about the B2P model?
Where are the days when it was the best thing since sliced bread.
Entitlement is just too much with some people..
A true B2P model is really good but you cant really consider GW2 like that at this point. Not from a commercial viewpoint at least. Anet does not make most of it’s money by selling the game (and expansions) like w true B2P game, it makes most of the money with the cash-shop. With other words, for income they do not focus on expansions but focus on the cash-shop. Meaning it’s more of a cash-shop game, that is basically what any F2P game is, what is again what OP refers to.
Also it;s not so much about willing to pay, more willing to pay for what? I am fine with buying an expansion every year that gives me more game and then lets me hunt cosmetics in the world. But I am not spending a single dime on gems, a system that turns cosmetic hunt into a grind.
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However looking at your statement. To believe it’s the case you would want a lot of data (thats pretty much impossible to get) however to believe it’s not the case Anet’s word is just fine. Isen’t that a little strange as well?
It’s not like they never before said things weren’t true and turned out to be true after-all.
That’s shifting the burden of proof though. The people claiming that there are cursed accounts and lucky accounts made the claim before the opposite was claimed, so the burden of proof lies with them.
That is not how life works. You are not by default right simply because you did not change from current viewpoint.
Somebody is right, somebody is wrong, there is no default truth and so the burden of proof lies on everybody or nobody but certainly not in one place. I also never shifted it, I never said you had to proof they where wrong. I simply said that “because Anet says so” does not mean anything.
I am pretty sure I never said my suggestion would completely remove any grind or faming or reputation completely
Then why purport it as a no-grind philosophy? There’s a clear distinction between grind and RNG, one is a problem in this game – the other isn’t (for those who aren’t caught up to speed, RNG sucks in Guild Wars 2). An answer in a sentence or less would be appreciated, these diatribes of nothing are a bore.
You should ask Anet that? I did not come up with the term ‘no grind philosophy’ all I am saying is that they promote a game with that term and then have an extremely grindy game.
The grind in this game very much is a problem, grind (gold), grind (gold) and grind (gold). You even talk about that yourself I think. That grind is caused by multiple things, one of them being indeed the way RNG works now in this game (drop items from many places but with extreme low drop-rates so in effect you can only get them by grinding gold) and items factually only available from gold.
ANet’s core mantra was expressed in such a way that grind wasn’t involved, but that it wouldn’t take grind to reach max level and complete your favorite content. To so many degrees, they’re correct. It’s not a chore or a grind, at all, to hit level 80, run dungeons, play WvW or even participate in PvP.
It is a grind, however, to continuously fight poor RNG. There’s a direct causal relationship there that, I’m sure, has caused many players to up and leave the game. This is a problem associated with RNG, not grind. These are using established terms to address the raised issue – not arbitrary measurements like “doable.”
The gold grind you keep referring to over and over again is a direct result of RNG, which makes RNG the culprit. It is an RNG that does not favor effort. There is nothing you can do, as a player, to improve your chances of getting a good reward, save play all the time. The very core of the issue is the distribution of rewards and RNG. These are the things you have said without vague descriptors, which I agree with – but I’m trying to make it communicable.
Hopefully this has cracked through your skull by now that there is a difference between grind and poor RNG, which only has a causal relationship with grind and is the source of most of the frustration in this game.
I use the not so exact term ‘doable’ because it’s no exact science and partly personal. One might say 1 / 250 is doable, somebody else 1/100 and yet another 1/10. Fact is, the extremely low drop-rates in GW2 make it not able to work directly towards anything in any realistic way. So that is why I use that term.
Once you agree that what is now in GW2 is not doable you can discuss what is doable or what is considered acceptable drop-rates (RNG) by most people. For those items that would still have RNG. Again, it’s only one element of what I suggest.
“The gold grind you keep referring to over and over again is a direct result of RNG” I disagree. Partly, yes but how about an item in the cash-shop (or any other items you can only buy with some currency). That is not related to rng, you simply need x amount of gold so you can only grind your way towards it.
Maybe you feel you do not get enough gold and blame that on RNG but there are also places you can get exact numbers of gold (like dungeons) so then the amount of gold you got is not related to RNG anymore and even if you would get more gold that simply would mean there would be more gold in the game, meaning the price for that item would go up meaning you where still grinding just as much as now.
So I have to disagree that, that is all only related to RNG. The RNG is only for a part the reason, and then the RNG as it is in GW2, not RNG in general because higher (doable) drop-rates of one specific item in one specific place would not result in this same grind as we see in GW2.
“there is a difference between grind and poor RNG” Did I ever say there wasn’t? Not even close. It was other people who went mad saying I simply want another type of grind because I leave room for some RNG and by doing so seeing the two as the same.
However I do dislike the grind as it is in GW2 and partly blame the poor RNG in GW2 for that.
I am pretty sure I never said my suggestion would completely remove any grind or faming or reputation completely
Then why purport it as a no-grind philosophy? There’s a clear distinction between grind and RNG, one is a problem in this game – the other isn’t (for those who aren’t caught up to speed, RNG sucks in Guild Wars 2). An answer in a sentence or less would be appreciated, these diatribes of nothing are a bore.
You should ask Anet that? I did not come up with the term ‘no grind philosophy’ all I am saying is that they promote a game with that term and then have an extremely grindy game.
The grind in this game very much is a problem, grind (gold), grind (gold) and grind (gold). You even talk about that yourself I think. That grind is caused by multiple things, one of them being indeed the way RNG works now in this game (drop items from many places but with extreme low drop-rates so in effect you can only get them by grinding gold) and items factually only available from gold.
I am pretty sure I never said my suggestion would completely remove any grind or faming or reputation completely
I’m ABSOLUTELY sure you never suggested such a thing. That’s why it’s sad you continually push your grinding ideas in ‘no grind’ threads.
So the threads are about completely removing all grind? You know the title ‘no grind philosophy’ simply refers to Anets statement about a no grind philosophy, is does not mean the OP wants a game that has no grind, farming or repetition of any kind. It might very well be about the fact that Anet talks about a ‘no grind philosophy’ but the game is grindy as hell. Maybe you are the one interpreting these threads wrong?
So according to you suggestions to decrease grind are not welcome in these threads, only ones that would remove grind completely. Of course then you would start complaining games need some grind according to you.
Well at least in that way you can always try to dismiss anything anybody says so that must feel pretty good?
I appreciate that people really truly believe that there is some predetermined account luck.
Personally I’d have to see a lot of data to be convinced… even so, there are so many factors to consider when it comes to drop-rate that it would be difficult to create a sterile and replicatable environment.
As has already been mentioned, I think most of the experiences here boil down to cognitive bias and other psychological effects.
I am not picking a side here only explaining it can work those ways so it’s not completely far fetch to believe that some account can get better loot because of how the game works. Some people seem to think that is impossible and you would be a tin foiled had type to even believe this would be the case.
However looking at your statement. To believe it’s the case you would want a lot of data (thats pretty much impossible to get) however to believe it’s not the case Anet’s word is just fine. Isen’t that a little strange as well?
It’s not like they never before said things weren’t true and turned out to be true after-all.
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In other words, you don’t seem to be against grind at all.
Bingo. He just rides the no grind train to promote his own ideas of what how he actually wants grind implemented in the game. Nice bit of trickery that ay? This isn’t new either. There is at least one other huge thread where this happens and it’s pointed out. Little is different here.
I wouldn’t be so quick to equate manipulation with obscurity. Some people only have vague ideas of what they mean, while having a communicable point – or has the business discussion faded from memory in the last 24 hours?
It’s not faded, there just isn’t anything left to discuss there. I’m not quick to equate … it’s pretty clear. It’s not the first time a no grind thread has been hijacked to push a different grind agenda by this person. It’s not the first time he was informed that he was supporting grinding in a no grind thread.
Only the doable RNG-part of what I suggested can be seen as grind while still smaller junks of grind.
Getting specific rewards for specific content like complete quest x to get item y is in no way grinding. And that type of implementations is also a big part of what I suggest.
Basically what my suggestion comes down to it taking the current never ending gold-grind and make of that some smaller junks of farms (the doable rng) or grind if you will call it that, mixed with also really grind-free options like getting more guaranteed rewards for specific content (do quest x for item y).
Those suggestion do not completely remove the grind no, but it is also not simply a different grind, it results in less grind overall.
If I however remind correctly you where the one who in the previous post said doing quest x to get item y is also a grind..
Well if you consider everything grind then you are right. However doing quest x to get item y is no repetition so not in any way part of the definition of grind.
Meaning if you would do that with half of the items you can now only get by grinding gold you would effectively end up with less grind in total. The other half of the items would then be smaller junks of grind so then fine.. for that part you can say I only ask for a different type of grind. Overall however it would result in less grind.
I am pretty sure I never said my suggestion would completely remove any grind or faming or reputation completely
True story:
Apple had to change the RNG for shuffle on their iPod as people were complaining it was broken. Many times songs repeated and so on. The truth is it was truly random. Apple had to change the RNG to appear more random to us.
If you play this game since launch you could have ended up without looting an exotic even once and nothing would be wrong with the RNG.
Our brains are pattern-seekers and they are wired to overdo it.
The only way to find patterns in the RNG of GW2 is to use a scientific method. Everything else is just superstition.
That is then some bad design. When you design a shuffle system you of course do not make it completely random as that would indeed results in songs being playing 3 times in a row. Obviously that is something you don’t want completely random.
But did people say it was not random or did they complain they would hear songs to many times shortly after each other. That is a big difference.
As a software engineer I can say it is very will possible they they have a system like in places that causes this. While could could simply put a specific drop-rate to a specific item you could for example to also design a system / algorithm that does try to optimize the drop-rate per player in a way it would (on paper, I personally don’t think a system like this would have the effect you would hope) be best for Anet. For example, an algorithm could try to find out how many drops (or what average drop-rate) you would need to keep playing while still being low enough for you to spend cash in the cash-shop.
This could however mean that the algorithm ‘comes to the conclusion’ that for one player it’s optimal to have higher drop-rates / drops then for another player.
They could even increase or decrease drop-rates based on how positive / negative you are on the forum.. everything is possible.
Now be clear I don’t say a system like this is in place, I just say it could be and could result in better loot for other players.
I personally can’t say I really notice a big difference between account of people know… or better said.. I did, but could not compare it with how much they grinded vs other people. Not to mention that some people link any good drop they get while other don’t.
I personally don’t get a lot of good drops and could blame that on some account0bug or that they lower my drop-rate because I leave a lot critical feedback on the forums. But fact is that I don’t grind a lot and if you don’t grind you don’t get much in this game. So that might be a better reason as to why I get less good drops then somebody else.
So I have no reason to believe there is a system in place that increases or decreases drop-rates for some account but I also can’t say there isn’t. I simply don’t know, but know both could be true.
However, I did notice many times that when you are near the Mystic Toilet suddenly multiple people link the same precursor. Assuming they link it because it just dropped for them, this would be very rare to happen with the more basic RNG-system where an item simply has one drop-rate. Because I have seen that multiple times I do think there RNG-system is a little more complex.
That would also be more in line with how Anet designs everything. Being it the annoying invisible walls everything, to fixing bugs where they lose a little control it all shows they really want to have a lot of control over what happens in there game. They seem to have truly dynamic / sandbox system as it would take away some control out of their hands. (something I btw think is very good for a game, it means thing can happen that even the developer didn’t think of what can results in great content.. but whatever).
Knowing they want to be in full control over everything and having seen those strange similar drops I also do expect them to having something more complex in place then the average rng per item. As the normal rng system would give them less control how many items are in the game (and who gets them).
It could then also be true that there is a bug in that system that results in some people getting better drops then other people.
Again, I don’t say that is the case but it can be true and you can’t simply ignore the possibility.
I like the idea of specific items to drop from specific content :P
Just like the current ‘’Beta Portal’’ (RNG drop item that lest you participate in the next close Beta , and drops from npcs + events , in 2 specifics areas) .
(while the Precursors can drop from every map in the world – or any other item tha you can hunt or buy from the AH)I dont believe there is is a huge whine/dishappiness in the forums and ingame about that :P
And we must implant it to the HOT maps too and in the organised Raids (like the ppl in the Raid Megathread wanted!)!
Do it nyawwwww !(Why me noooo Beta portal dond gett till nyawww ?!? ? Meee give goot freebakk ! Engliss goot noww !!!)
The beta portal is a poor example, though. It’s a beta, it’s meant to be a chance for players to offer feedback. The method they propose only extends to those players who are grinding for the limited availability. It’s effectively cutting one of the largest portions of the playerbase from offering feedback on the content. There is no way you can justify how the beta portal works when the beta is meant to be tested for feedback.
On the other hand, though, I would like to see that same ideology pass on to other drops in this game – improve their drop chances from event chests and mobs in a particular area so that people can narrow down their goals and see achievable results with their effort. When you have a great majority of players, like me, who have accumulated 2,000 hours in 2.5 years with no drops worth more than 25g, it’s time to reevaluate how the RNG in this game works and how they improve it to make it an actual grind and not sheer, dumb luck.
Because at a certain point, the RNG wall just demotivates people from continuing. They grind…and they grind…and they grind…and they grind…and there’s really no reason to keep throwing your stock in RNG when the drop rates are so horrendously low due to a poor distribution of drops since the very start of this game.
The item can drop from many mobs (while only in two area’s, but area that gets grinded already), but as I have understand with very low drop-rates likely probably because it drops from so many mobs. So that means it’s still a grind, and indeed also against time what would make it even worse. So it for sure is a grind. That means they likely will get mainly people in the beta that have no problems with grind what results in better feedback for any grind in the beta. Just saying.
May I ask, then, what your definition of grind is? Because the new precursor system is most definitively a grind. Grind never hurt games, terrible RNG has. The RNG in this game has become a reckless chore that’s more grindy than it needs to be due to a slackjaw manifesto that ArenaNet should revise and poor reward distribution.
Grind can be a lot, but for me grind (or the worse grind) mainly is if you are grinding for currencies all the time simply to get the item you want and then again and again, slowly seeing a number (the currency) going up, while not have a more direct approach (without some currency) to work towards the item.
Doing a quest or quest-chain to get an item (that belongs to that quest-chain) is not a grind. Doing just some random quest to earn gold to buy the same item is a grind.
Some doable RNG is maybe still a little grindy but because it’s doable it means it’s still a viable option to work directly towards getting the item and it adds the rush of ‘will it drop’ to that ‘grind’ where the currency grind does not.
A fun craft where there is always a next item around the corner you want to make and where mats are not there almost impossible to get items is also not a grind. Getting a specific reward for completing specific challenging content (think Liadri) is also not a grind.
That should give you a good idea of what I see as (bad) grind and what not.
I do agree the precursor crafting will likely still be grindy simply because it’s so much you need to do. But still I think it’s a step in the right direction because it’s not this never ending gold grind for everything but specific task that eventually lead you towards the precursor. Also pre-cursors are supposed to be very special, if there is some grind for a few items you will not hear me complain. It’s this never ending (gold) grind for almost everything (cosmetic) in this game.
If they would then also add similar systems (but not as extreme) for other items then.. well then you would have what I have been asking for.
In other words, you don’t seem to be against grind at all. Like the rest of the unhappy folk, though, you’re tired of the grind associated with the terrible RNG. Might be a good time to sit down, think over all of the terms you’re using, what they mean and what your proposals actually are.
As you stated, you’re against the gold grind – which problematic because value and income in this game is a total RNG fest, there’s little in the name of stable income unless you count the gold reward at the end of each dungeon path; and there’s certainly no stability to be had in drop rate assurances. So, by a rational conclusion, you’re against the RNG system in this game.
At least, it makes much more sense to consider it that way.
I have always been very clear about disliking the never ending gold-grind. I also always linked that to extreme low drop-rates what has to do with dropping items in multiple places. (what in turn I link again to the cash-shop focus as they basically sell a way out of the grind) Or simply with items only being available for gold (like in the cash-shop), I also always made a clear difference between doable / reasonable / viable RNG what means you can directly work towards an item. Versus drop-rates that means you can not in any viable way work towards an item other then grinding gold.
Doable RNG where the item drops but you can in a viable way work towards getting it I consider farming and I have no problem with some farming in an MMO. That is the repetition that keeps people busy and at the very least this always gives the rush of ‘will it drop’.
I have always been very clear about these things and choosing my words carefully. However if somebody sees I say I am fine with some doable RNG mixed into it.
They forget about all the other direct approaches I talked about, like quest-chains, guaranteed dungeons-rewards and so on. They also completely look over the word doable or viable. They just see RNG, link that to the extreme low drop-rates in GW2 and go mad. While failing to see that those extreme low drop-rates (GW2s RNG) very much is what my suggestions go against.
Yes I am very much against the RNG system as it is in place in GW2 now, but not only that. Any item you can only buy for gold (like cash-shop-items) also only give grinding gold as the in-game way of getting them. I want direct in-game approaches towards getting items. Being it some doable RNG (So not the one we see now) or / and direct approaches like earning it in crafts (when crafts are also made less of a grind) and completing a dungeon or some quests or a JP, challenging content like Liadri and so on.
So on paper your right, in reality it works a little different.
Actually no. One of the reasons this debate has been so funny to read is that we are both completely right.
Some people would love your approach.
Some people would hate it.
Some people would love it sometimes and hate it others.
For some people the fun is in the rush. For others the fun is in making measurable progress towards something they desire.
Personally I like a mix of both. I like the idea of a skin that says something about your accomplishments as a player. I also like the ability to work towards a goal without having to worry too much about RNG. To be honest, in general, if I want to gamble I am inclined to find a venue with a better pay off than an MMO.
The mix is what I do suggest. Direct ways of working towards your item, what indeed also means an items says something about your accomplishment but I do also not mind a little RNG as long as it’s doable / not over the top, meaning it still gives you an possibility to work directly towards it by doing the content that drops it.
So I guess we are on the same page with that.
The thing is, when you make most of those items not account-bound you also have the grind option available (the measurable progress). Sure that would reduce the in-game value of item because it does not say anything about your accomplishment anymore. Of-course you could mix that, some account-bound, some not.
I all also aware both type of people exist but when the items are not account bound (or for those items that are not account-bound) you could have both ways available so pleasing both type of players. It does not really have to be pleasing the one or the other.
Exactly my point.. so what happens is that people kill champions, to sell the stuff they don’t want to buy the item they do want and keep repeating this process… The grind I talk about.
Which can also be described as:
People play the content they want to play and gain access to the rewards they desire without having to ever grind at all.
Its not black and white, good vs bad, grind vs no grind. Entirely too many variables for that.
Yeah that is how you could describe it and Anet does describes it. But for all items you do not make account-bound this would still be an option also using the other system so it is not a positive for one system over the other.
You also forget that what some people like, is the hunt for those items and you lose that game-play.
It’s in peoples nature that they go for the way of least resistance so you system helps people to burn them-self out, not doing the content they like but the content that makes the best gold in the easiest way. I see many people defining this system here say “there own fault” and that is true but does not help the game even a little bid.
Part of the fun of content can be the rush of that item you want dropping, where not it’s just a number going up. Meaning you lost that part of the fun.
So on paper your right, in reality it works a little different.
Just popping in to say I don’t mind the grind really. So long as it’s for marginal stat increase (ascended gear) or cosmetics, yeah ’s fine by me.
What I don’t like is excessive RNG. I would rather grind for something I know will, for example take me 20 hours to complete, rather than something random that’ll take an average of 15 hours, but might also take 50 hours if you’re unlucky. When effort does not match reward, things be unfair.
Looking at you precursors.Yeah this has always kittened me off, and it’s why I liked Guild Wars more than Guild Wars 2. At least in Guild Wars, you had a really good chance of getting Dhuum’s Scythe if you ran UWSC for 4-6 months. Speedrun dungeons, WvW, PvP or even MF gambling for 4-6 months in this game…gives you no good chance at anything, really. It’s a crying shame that you can’t work for your rewards.
Part of the reason I went casual is I spent over a year speedrunning dungeons just to get Dusk to no avail. Money to buy Dusk was acquired and I still never saw a precursor. I spent a year trying. That just seems at a certain point to be unethical in the way they designed RNG. Hell, I still don’t have Sunrise to go with it because I can’t be bothered to buy Dawn or farm against the treadmill anymore. Much like the precursor hunt, though, if there were some sort of way for me to get a reward for my effort rather than banging my head against the wall praying to RNGesus, I will enjoy this game a lot more.
I’m thankful they’re finally coming to grips with replacing RNG with provisional grind.
This is a little strange statement. "Part of the reason I went casual is I spent over a year speedrunning dungeons just to get Dusk to no avail. Money to buy Dusk was acquired and I still never saw a precursor. ".
So if you love grind so much, what was then the problem? You grinded the gold? And the fact that it’s not possible to work directly towards the item you want (other then the gold-grind) is what I talk about all the time. These items for example do indeed drop but with such a extreme low drop-rate that you can’t work towards them anymore leaving grind (for gold) as the only real viable option to get them.
So what you say you dislike results in what you say you like. Reasonable drop-rates lets you also work towards an item. Just as putting items behind specific content does like chest, or putting them behind challenging content or in fun crafts. That are the types of things I am asking for. But would decrease the grind.
You say you are happy with more grind because that allows you to work towards something.. yes in the same was as it already does ‘grind gold, grind gold’ but at the same time you say you like the ‘change to grind’ because you dislike the current RNG system… that results in grind.
So what is it? You liked it that you had to grind gold for your legendary and want more of that? Or you dislike the grind and want less of it???
I like grind. I dislike the idea of not being rewarded for my grind. Hell, I can’t even reasonably farm in Silverwastes or EotM and achieve much money. I spent maybe 8 hours the other day in EotM on my day off and walked away with a grand total of like 25 gold. That’s absurd. I can get more gold by grabbing a second job.
I’m not an advocate against grind, I really hate the idea of removing grind from this game – it means there is no achievements to earn. I want my effort to be directly correlated in the rewards I earn, and that simply doesn’t exist anymore. Too many things (the Halloween weapon skins, precursors, minipets, black lion tickets, dyes, gathering nodes) are all a wonderful (sarcasm) RNG fest that have no effort to reward ratio. Unlike, e.g., Arah armor or Lumi/Carapace – which you can earn by just putting some effort into the game.
What I have been suggesting is putting these items in the game behind specific content. Sometimes with some doable rng, other times as direct rewards.
Isn’t it way more fun to kill a specific pink boss because it drops that pink color you want. (being it as a guaranteed drop-rate or with a doable RNG / drop rate.)
Get the mini-pet for completing a specific JP, getting that cool skin for completing a dungeon and an even better skin for completing the same dungeon but leaving no mobs alive inside and so on.
Now that would be fun ways to hunt down those items. Not grind gold and then buy them.
The amount of gold your earn / drop-rate of such items is yet a completely different question and not so much related to this.
You can split hairs if you like and convince yourself crafted precursors are a move away from gold/mat earning. Anet creating craftable precursors is just supporting their current approach to the game and will be as much about earning gold and mats to get it as anything else. That’s the ‘grind’ that people are QQing about. I don’t see how anything has changed.
Well, people don’t assume that the precursor collections will be as much of a RNG demon as drops are. I, admittedly, fall within that category and I should probably feel bad for taking a presumptuous stand. Still, being rewarded for one’s efforts, as grindy as it may be, is more rewarding than a RNG grind – which ends up being too pervasive and demoralizing. Hell, I’m sure if people could even guarantee an exotic from completing, say, Orr paths, people would be doing those more often than they do now. Yet, as it stands, there’s no guarantee of anything – there’s nothing you can possibly do other than kill any champion or any foe and get a shot at what you want.
That’s just…not feasible.
Exactly my point.. so what happens is that people kill champions, to sell the stuff they don’t want to buy the item they do want and keep repeating this process… The grind I talk about.
Oh I know what he’s referring to. It’s awfully easy to make up stories about points on a graph. All the same thing over and over again. If such a change was so good for the game, Anet would have done it by now. The only thing we see is Anet reinforcing their position on this with craftable precursors in HoT … obviously they don’t agree with the OP or his cheerleading squad.
I agree, ANet’s taking a good route. The precursor hunt seems to be more in-line with more grind and less RNG, which exactly what this game needs more of. Accomplishments for your efforts and not dumb luck. As it sits, far too much depends on your luck in achieving any pecuniary significance. Pure, dumb, unadulterated luck.
Now you could explain this. At this moment getting a precursor mainly means, grind gold and buy it. There is no ‘doable’ RNG / more direct way to get a precursor.
With the new system you will need to do task and get collections. In addition they would make it easier to farm mats.
That seems to be less of a grind and more in the direction I ask for (a more direct way of working towards each other) then the current ‘grind gold’ system.
Sure, the precursor will be so extreme it probably still is a grind (and in fact I did say a few grinds for some very rare items would not be a problem, I guess the precursor is supposed to be this very rare thing) but nonetheless a more direct approach and smaller grind / split into smaller junks again more into the direction of what I am suggesting here.
May I ask, then, what your definition of grind is? Because the new precursor system is most definitively a grind. Grind never hurt games, terrible RNG has. The RNG in this game has become a reckless chore that’s more grindy than it needs to be due to a slackjaw manifesto that ArenaNet should revise and poor reward distribution.
Grind can be a lot, but for me grind (or the worse grind) mainly is if you are grinding for currencies all the time simply to get the item you want and then again and again, slowly seeing a number (the currency) going up, while not have a more direct approach (without some currency) to work towards the item.
Doing a quest or quest-chain to get an item (that belongs to that quest-chain) is not a grind. Doing just some random quest to earn gold to buy the same item is a grind.
Some doable RNG is maybe still a little grindy but because it’s doable it means it’s still a viable option to work directly towards getting the item and it adds the rush of ‘will it drop’ to that ‘grind’ where the currency grind does not.
A fun craft where there is always a next item around the corner you want to make and where mats are not there almost impossible to get items is also not a grind. Getting a specific reward for completing specific challenging content (think Liadri) is also not a grind.
That should give you a good idea of what I see as (bad) grind and what not.
I do agree the precursor crafting will likely still be grindy simply because it’s so much you need to do. But still I think it’s a step in the right direction because it’s not this never ending gold grind for everything but specific task that eventually lead you towards the precursor. Also pre-cursors are supposed to be very special, if there is some grind for a few items you will not hear me complain. It’s this never ending (gold) grind for almost everything (cosmetic) in this game.
If they would then also add similar systems (but not as extreme) for other items then.. well then you would have what I have been asking for.
You can split hairs if you like and convince yourself crafted precursors are a move away from gold/mat earning. Anet creating craftable precursors is just supporting their current approach to the game and will be as much about earning gold and mats to get it as anything else. That’s the ‘grind’ that people are QQing about. I don’t see how anything has changed.
I am not convincing myself of anything yet. First will need to see it, just going with with they say. Maybe you are convincing yourself of something?
What I say here all the time is, make it possible to work directly towards items, put it behind quest and quest-chains and behind specific content and so on.
What I did hear from the precursor crafting this is basically how it will work only with many quests and so on.
“Anet creating craftable precursors is just supporting their current approach to the game and will be as much about earning gold and mats to get it as anything else.”
There current approach results in the only real viable option to get the a precursor is to grind gold and buy it. There is no real other viable option. The new approach is about doing quest and specific task and collect specific items to get the precursor.
Don’t know what the mats requirement will be (that could still be a grind) but even for that there would come a system that would allow you to better be able to farm for mats in stead of having to grind for gold to buy the mats, as there is no viable option to get many of the mats directly.
So I don’t know how that would be in line with the current gold-grind and not with a more direct approach and specific content and quest (what I ask for). But we will see what it turns out to be.