Guild Wars 2

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Can you link as your posts from that Crytek forum ?

Also can you understand that GW1 vs GW2 have 1 huge factor that distungues them , that is called 2-week Update/Living Story ?
Can you tell me how much those update costs , by calculating the 1 billion per year revenue that a specific company does vs the content updates they release and based on that calculate the cost of the 2-week Updates ?

For the first.. why you don’t believe me?
http://www.crysis.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7830&start=60

“Also can you understand that GW1 vs GW2 have 1 huge factor that distungues them , that is called 2-week Update/Living Story ?" Yeah that might have been the problem. The different approach, not expansion approach but bi-weekly updates and then financing the game with the cash-shop to support this approach.

“Can you tell me how much those update costs , by calculating the 1 billion per year revenue that a specific company does vs the content updates they release and based on that calculate the cost of the 2-week Updates ?”
Does it really matter, we already did see that they could have earned more with yearly expansion looking at the numbers. Btw something I don’t think you will see when using the sales of the HoT expansion as base for your calculations as I think they will have lower sales then what expansions would have gotten if they didn’t go for this approach, simply because they did scare people away that won’t come back. Some irreversible damage has already been done.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Bernie.8674:

How are you getting 5g in two hours? I might get that on guild mission nights, by doing dungeons, or by engaging in concerted farming, but I’ve never gotten anywhere near that by playing casually the way you claim. I must be playing wrong. I’m stagnant somewhere between 20 and 25 gold right now.

World Boss Grand Tour. Log on, find which boss is up next, and do the circuit for an hour. Sell the Ecto from salvaging the rares, sell Silk if I really want to make the money, and sell all the blues and greens.

Drop into Silverwastes if it’s before 1am PST and generally will find an active map. Do events, and sell proceeds much like with the Grand Tour. This one moves faster and can be more lucrative.

Harvest any trees I see there, and then take a moment to go to Pagga’s Waypoint and find the motherlode of Cypress to the west – sell Foxfire Clusters.

I think the lowest I hit was 3.8 g on a night where I forged rares instead of salvaging and selling Ecto.

You gave a pretty accurate view of how many people play this game… Actively grinding gold. You just proved the reason for the existence of this thread.

It’s only a little strange that you do post in in an attempt to show how there is no need to grind, or you would not consider it grind.

According to WoodenPatatoes you are a fool if you think Anet was able to solve the no grind problem and being able to keep people playing anyway. (so grind or leave?)

The complete first minute is kinda interesting about how the game is about cosmetics. Basically WoodenPatatoes explained in one sentence how Anet put GW2 on the market.

And now I am strange for wanting those cosmetics to in fact be in the game, be something to hunt down, be part of the end-game and not be something you buy or grind for in this non-grind mmo? Because.. optional.

I do not always agree with him but yeah this first min said it all and completely fits into this topic.

Btw, I was afraid of one thing.. The mastery being like the WvW points what is the next thing WoodenPatatoes said how Anet explained it would work. If I want to unlock fly abilities I want to do ‘quest’ activities related to flying.. Not again grind some currency (mastery points) to then buy / unlock the ability I want. So if it’s really like the WvW points so far for the no grind.

Oow and that is going to be stuff you will need for exploring, locking you out of things if you do not have it… so even for those who do care for the ‘optional’ argument.. so far for that.

Lets hope it will be more interesting then the WvW points!

CETheLucid.3964:

Devata.6589:

Sure, I guess I just do not know why you think it’s possible that one would be an option and the other wouldn’t.

CETheLucid.3964:

I say that because I don’t really understand why we haven’t had a new pet since Southsun Cove.

I’m thinking maybe they hit a technical limit to how many pets they can have in the game? I have no idea.

If something like that is the case though, I don’t see the harm in adding simple aesthetics to pet’s that we already have.

That can be done in game, through the gem shop. If it’s simply an aesthetic, it doesn’t matter gameplay wise since it’s just a “skin”.

It still gives an avenue for “new” pets, a bit like the GW1 HoM pets.

I don’t understand why we haven’t had new pets in such a long time considering everything else we’ve gotten.

So I assume that since it seems like such an obvious thing to think about, it just hasn’t been feasible for whatever reason.

I’m certainly not the only person in the world who’s had thoughts of new pets for rangers, and I doubt this wish is any secret to the devs.

But I don’t know the why in that regard. Only Anet does. So I presented a scenario based on what I do know.

We have several “families” or “skins” of pets that share the same F2 ability and stats.

If it isn’t feasible to make a new family for the dino pet I’m wishing for, I presented an alternative of throwing him in the families we already have.

It’s been done before with the HoM pets and the pig family.

It would be great if a new dino pet could be an adventure, an elaborate and challenging quest ala the Black Moa from Factions.

A new pet(s) can happen as a natural part of the expansion (as it happened with Southsun Cove). Anet has good standing there.

But if it isn’t feasible right away, I’m putting an idea out there. I want it to be considered. If it can’t come at launch, maybe it can come later.

And not just for dinos, a gem store option for ranger pets opens up the potential for new aesthetics for pets in general.

Aesthetic variety is a nice luxury to have. If it can come in elaborate, satisfying adventures, all the better.

If new “skins” can come through the gem shop without locking new families or exclusive F2 skills behind it, it’s acceptable.

Even if we can’t get all new families, we can get new “skins” without that becoming a buy to win gameplay issue.

Well thats your opinion that. I prefer to play a game, having fun collecting them. Not buying them, if I would like that I would go play a F2P game. I for example also love to collect mini’s in other mmo’s. haven’t really bothered in GW2 because.. well you know why.

And we likely haven’t seen any new ones in a long time because it’s something you usually see an an expansion. An expansion introduces new maps with new beast and then some of those new beast become ranger pets.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

It’s a conclusion I sort of came to before in this thread, that the so called outcry for gear progression I did not seem to remember but multiple people here talked about was in fact the complain about no end-game. What is of course not the same.

Back in the January of 2013 , the 2 biggest ’’Megathreads’’ (you know that the Mods will direct you post to that) was the ‘’Thief Megathread’’ (if a thief is not used in Higher tier team , then his not Op :P)
and the ’’Progresion’’ , that different ppl have asked about raids and gear progresion(because they play an MMO for the character progresion and not as a Barbie game) and ofc mounts collection :P

Well haven’t seen many of those to be honest but wasn’t very active on the forum back then. I did remember seeing the ‘no endgame’ / ’I’m bored’ threads. Oow and mounts are cosmetics. So maybe they should have added those then? But then again, they would likely have done that as cash-shop items back then, not really adding any value / content / playtime to the game… well other then grinding gold.

aerial.7021:

Devata.6589:

What in fact could be other interesting way to implement repeatable content without grind. Make something people want to get better at.

Apparently if you believe the hype train on HoT they are attempting just that however not being one to believe in hype I shall reserve judgement until release, it is odd to me that hot (pun ha!) on the heels of its announcement this topic take front and center stage on the forum, I wonder how much grind they’ve added to that ‘challenging content’ they keep touting, I’d wager colossal amounts of grind and left clicking until your mouse breaks.

Well isn’t the ultimate goal of this thread to get it right in HoT? So lets hope it does help to get the good version, not the grind version.

Not sure if it are the ‘challenges’ you are talking about but yeah I can see how that could turn out to be something I would completely love but also to something that is just another boring grind that I completely hate.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

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The company gave us a statement that said something : WE LET SOME PPL PLAY OUR GAME AT BETA (5-10k ppl sample-played mmo for the first time ) . PPL DIDNT UNDERSTAND HOW THE DYNAMIC WORDS WORKED OR WHERE TO GO .THEY KEPT THOSE DATA IT IN THEIR BACKLOG . WHEN THEY HAD TO RELEASE IN CHINA , IN ORDER TO PREVENT THE SAME MISTAKES AND BECAUSE GENERAL THE CHINESE MARKET WANTS SOME GUIDNESS THEY HAD TO MAKE SOME AJUSTMENTS TO THEM

And they have already told us that have plans to evovle/upgrade/fix it in the future .

(When they rleased in China , they released 14 servers + 9 others after 3 days and some others later on i think .
They expected to have lets say 10 million players in the first 3 months . They didnt calculate right , and some servers where stack , while some others where low .
And rather than w8ing an other 4 months , for those Low servers to bloom (you know that when they release the game in the EU-NA , they didnt sold the 3,5 m copies at the first day) , they decided to merge some server , because the majority of the poupaltion love the WvWvW (when they where beta testing in china , they said that they are a humogous numbers of guilds , with trementous amount of ppl that love to play WvWvW .)
That why the said something like : OUR EXPECTATIONS DIDNT COME UP AS WE THOUGHT)

And again how many are the majority ?
At the NA servers , ther are 3 servers atm that are full and a third 1 (called Dragon@@@something that goes from very high to full)
So the servers are not a static thing from the launch as the vocal minority ppl think , but atleast represent ppl that have logged in once per 1 week

They should listen each person opinion , even those with intuition or the vocal minority .
But those ppl with the intuition must use that passve skill to help the game by giving ideas .
Those ppl should never insist over and over again , about what is right .
In their head , their ideas sound fabulous but there are always flaws .
So they must expect others to find those flaws and try to find a middle ground , or if they are truly perfect/booletproof ideas , it will be surely be used ingame .

Your flaw about the removal of the gem store and only offering x-pack every 1 year , might trigger a backlash , where the company wont make enought revenue and has Content Updates every 2-3 months , rather than 2 weeks . That will surely will kitten ppl .

You can try to ask Blizzard , when they reopen the ’’Titan’’ project again at the future , to create your perfect ‘’financial package’’ , or you can try too with WoW atm

Devata.6589:

‘The vocal minority’ statement is just as empty as the ‘you don’t know the real numbers so you can’t say anything about this’ or the ‘this is nor your game, go play another game’ arguments.

If you as a collector , you are ok with paying 15 euros per months + you are FORCED TO PAY WITH REAL MONEY for the extra things for the cash shop (rather than creating a RIOT on their forums too)
, while you have those problem in GW2 (where you can get 100% of everything ingame+cash shop with only gold , with the help of some free gold-guides) , i dont know what to say ….

I have expected you for 9 hours , why so late
I wanted to offer you a corraperation to open a ’’Oracle’’ , for us both the Intuition guys :P

Is it me or did you just want to say something to me personally. Because I don’t see how what you are saying is a comment to my post. Anyways:

Sure it could not work, sure I could be wrong. I could also be right.
Like I gave the Crytek example where my prediction turned out to be right and looking at the income number of GW1 and GW2 comparing the income and then comparing the sales of the GW1’s expansion in percentages to the original sale, then doing the same with what GW2 made in the first year( after that release) it would also suggest that they would have earned more the expansion way.

Then again, I am not only looking at their money, I am also at a customer looking at the quality of the product.

All this does not mean I am some oracle that is always right, i only say this because in fact many see a company (like Anet) as an oracle that is always right while people commenting here have no clue. But the reality it is that we both can be right and both can be wrong. So that sort of arguments to try and end a debate are useless and have no valuable purpose. We all know that our suggestions could work out differently then we expected.

aerial.7021:

Devata.6589:

bad RNG can result in grind so that is completely on topic and about grind. If you make an extreme low drop-rate (RNG) and then put that drop in many places (exactly what Anet does with many items that are ingame) it means the only reasonable way to get them is to grind for gold and buy them. So yes, RNG can be the result of grind so when people talk about RNG they can very well be talking about grind.

That’s how I do things, I prefer certainty rather than random chances if I do X expect Y, not random rotations of garbage, I believe I can dive into my wheely bin for that, mainly because my experiences with luck in real life are absolute 0.

Grinding gold is usually also based on RNG (not the dungeon version but basically all other version people use in GW2) because depending on the drops you earn money. It’s just a little bit more predictable because higher numbers makes percentage more accurate.

Then again, going directly for an item with lets say (for the sake of argument) 25% chance would (easy but wrong math) mean at the second try you have 50% chance, third try 75% and 4th try 100%.

But because this are low numbers it’s not very stage that you might need 8 go’s for it (what crates your feel of bad luck).

On the other hand, when going for multiple things there will also be other items you get the first time, so overall the 25% is accurate. With grinding gold you see this effect better but it’s there in both cases.

But more importantly for this thread. Allowing for more direct and viable ways does not mean the grind gold way has to go. Now that is like the only option so for those who don’t like it it’s a problem but when allowing to also have the more direct approach (that might involve viable RNG) it does not make the grind option go away (for any items that are not account-bound)

Besides those asking for less grind do not only ask for more viable RNG but also for complete X and get Y, That is an even more certain way.

Vayne.8563:

@Devata.6589

There’s a difference between someone saying the level of grind is unacceptable and saying, how can you claim this game has no grind. Those are two completely different things. This thread is saying that Anet’s claims are wrong. It’s an excuse, a target for dissatisfied people to rally together to a banner.

Yeah and after Colins post in this topic the complain became.. well we still find it a grind because… or well the grind you don’t take up in your grind philosophy (but you agree exists) is just as bad the the grind you try to prevent.

“There’s no way I’m going to convince you that ascended gear was their only real option, or something very much like it.” again, while I do not really care about the ascended stuff, the decision I consider wrong is making everything a grind.. Yeah I do think there where multiple options they could have gone for. But off topic, I am not the one here complaining about ascended gear.

tigirius.9014:

Eleri Tezhme.3048:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

nGumball.1283:

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Have to agree with this. When I say grind I mean enormous effort for almost no reward. Even Arenanet cannot make a statement that says they don’t have grind when using this definition because the entire game is based around the philosophy economically.

When I say farm, I mean doing repetative activities to gain a specific set of rewards in a reasonable amount of time, like gathering ore. If you want to talk drops I’d say they have the ability to farm items like greens and blues but as these items are largely useless even from a crafting standpoint much less one in which someone can use the materials from these items to make massive amounts of gold (haha) they definitely DON’T have farming in this game. They were very very successful at killing farming at the expense of a rewarding gameplay design.

For example, certain types of leather are near impossible to farm even to the last day I logged in, they were mid level types of leather, so if you were a gold farmer forget it. The same went for certain types of gems in gem cutting. I was amazed that these items stayed relatively rare even though they were common items needed for crafting for the past number of years.

An example of farming would be in other titles, like I can go out right now and do specific things and I’ll know I’ll get garrison resources. I can go out right now and do specific things and I’ll know I’ll get dilithium, both 100% of the time from these other two game titles, but not here. Here not only do we have RNG to deal with we also have RNG within RNG (the chance for bags to drop and then the chance for certain items to drop) AND DR on top of that.

Yeah especially if it comes to mats I completely agree. They actively removed farming. What I remember from back in the beta was that people said where afraid the no-grind philosophy would mean you could not farm for things in the game (funny enough that comes close to the ’hunting down stuff yourself, I talk about). Anet response was that you could but it was not needed, that is what there no grind was about. I clearly remember this.

However after the game was released every time people found a way to farm for high level / tier mats they nerved it, using really bad excuses.
I mean, I remember being in a thread where we talked about the bug of npc’s / mobs spawning way to fast in GW2. We had an open conversation with a dev there but the end-result basically was, everything works as it should be. Well nonsense, there are many places you kill something and it spawns again immediately (like if they are in a que waiting to be spawned because while there are only 5 there, there are 15 ready to spawn), killing a group of pirates usually means killing them all like 3 times. That problem still is in the game.

Then the second south-sun patch came and people found a good way to farm (I think blood) mats from the skelks, that got nerved because, a bug made the skelks spawn to fast.. really? They spawn just as fast as all those other things but when people talked about it, that wasn’t considered a bug, then people use it to farm mats at a normal speed (normal compared to other games) and it’s a bug.

The complete first half year to a year every time people find a way to farm some mats they nerved it eventually only having the grind for gold option left. (How convenient for there cash-shop gem > gold option. But of course that completely unrelated right.)

So indeed, farming (for mats people really need) is pretty dead in this game. All that is left is grind for gold.

If you want low tier blood you could still farm, like bats. In most mmo’s farming high tier mats is just as ‘easy’ but they come from high level mobs. In this game many of those high tier mats are simply not farmable and it’s those you would usually want to farm.

Serophous.9085:

Vayne.8563:

At the time when ascended gear was added to the game, there were a whole lot of posts about people leaving because they had nothing to do. The only way Anet could have added something to do in a timely manner, was to add something time gated that helped people stay in game longer toward that goal. I didn’t like it but I got why they did it. The forums were a zoo. Every day there were posts about people who ran out of stuff to do. Anet made a decision based on forum posts. Yet you dislike their solution.

The solution of providing more and more content wasn’t an option because the content your’e talking about takes too much time to implement if they needed to head off what was quickly becoming a stampede.

But more to the point. we hardly see grind complaints, UNTIL Anet brings up the words no grind. And then we get threads like this.

Before this thread, I think you could count on one hand the number of times a month that anyone said they had a problem with the game being grindy.

This isn’t some big huge thing that huge numbers of people are complaining about. This is a pet peeve of a small percentage of the population who got riled up because Anet used the word grind and said the game wasn’t grindy. If that hadn’t happened, this thread wouldn’t even exist.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/I-personally-feel-like-I-am-going-nowhere-in-PVE
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/What-do-you-guys-do-after-80
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/getting-kinda-bored-already
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Something-to-Consider
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Are-the-complaints-just-from-a-lack-of-understanding

Yeah, this was just at the beginning of september of some posts I bother to go back and look for, least one a page at times. So before the november patch with the ascended gear.

Its also probably hard to find some things, as other complaints were probably moved to “trash can”, hence why i at least linked the last one.

Fast reading the OP’s of all topics they all complain about lack of end-game, being bored at 80. Two talk about having no trinity (And I do agree that we should need better roles in GW2 where a profession has it’s own task / role to complete, but that does not have to be the trinity!) .

However what I do not see is somebody asking for a gear treadmill. The only post that does say something about that is somebody complaining that people are asking talking about no end-game, no trinity and other stuff like a thread-mill. But for all I know he is making the same conclusion as you guys are.. If people complain about no end-game they ask for gear thread-mill (or grind) so people did ask for ascended.

It’s a conclusion I sort of came to before in this thread, that the so called outcry for gear progression I did not seem to remember but multiple people here talked about was in fact the complain about no end-game. What is of course not the same.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

aerial.7021:

Allisa Wonderland.8192:

Grind?

Go play Pac Man, Space Invaders, Donkey Kong, or pretty much any of the video games that introduced the world to computer gaming. That is what grind is.

Woefully incorrect, Pac-Man, Space Invaders, or Donkey Kong in fact any old game in the era you are talking about on the whole was NOT about grind at all! it was about who could get the highest score, because those games do not have an end-game at all period they if anything loop and you just keep playing for as long as you can stay alive, more importantly they where developed for Arcades Halls, the 2 cannot be compared at all there in different eras, let alone genres.

You’re right. It was only a grind if you cared about the prestige of seeing your name on the leaderboard.

So . . . self-inflicted grind.

. . . I’m having a sense of deja-vu . . . nah, wait, that’s just my Tetris flashbacks.

Incorrect. It’s about skill not about grind. The points don’t count up what would made it a grind. Technically you would be able to get the highest score after only having played once. So thats something completely different.

Somebody who is doing something multiple times to get better at it is not considered grinding but learning.

What in fact could be other interesting way to implement repeatable content without grind. Make something people want to get better at.

Vayne.8563:

Distaste.4801:

Vayne.8563:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

This isn’t some big huge thing that huge numbers of people are complaining about. This is a pet peeve of a small percentage of the population who got riled up because Anet used the word grind and said the game wasn’t grindy. If that hadn’t happened, this thread wouldn’t even exist.

Yes, yes it would.

I have utter and complete faith it would still exist in some form. We might not be complaining about the same things as far as grind . . .

This thread is specifically about the no grind philosophy which was brought up at the launch. If the word grind hadn’t been mentioned in the launch people would be talking more about HoT and less about this.

Also there are a lot of things that people post in grind threads that aren’t about the grind itself.

Time gating is not grind, if anything it’s anti grind. It’s an alternate way to slow down progress. If something is time gated, you can’t grind it.

RNG – RNG is not grind. It’s a way of slowing down how fast you get something. You can grind the whole world over and over for a precursor, but what’s being complained about there is the random element…not grind.

Not getting good enough drops – This is not grind either, it’s people complaining they somehow have unlucky accounts and they don’t get the stuff other people do.

There are some grind complaints on these forums but they’re generally few and far between or have been for the last year or so anyway.

Time gating can certainly be a grind. Grinding is any repetitive task you need to do a lot of times to achieve some goal. Just because it is time gated does not mean you aren’t doing a repetitive task. The grind is spread out over a much longer period of time. Did I want to log in and do the daily? Heck no! But I needed that laurel and a lot more in order to get an ascended item. So every day I logged on to grind out the daily to get a single laurel towards my goal.

RNG is certainly a part of grinding. If it makes things harder to get that means doing the repetitive task more, thus more grinding. If an item has a 1/10 chance of dropping it’s not going to take nearly as much grinding as a 1/2500.

Poor drops- this is the same as RNG. If you get poor drops then you’re going to be grinding more in order to get whatever it is that you want. Not to mention that GW2’s reward system is terrible since most of the time you get trash loot. This helps reinforce the feeling of grinding since you never get a feeling of accomplishment. This is diablo 3 at release, at least Blizzard learned from their mistake.

In the last year or so the forums have slowed to a crawl as people have left or simply don’t care anymore since the devs ignore us. Grind has always been a big topic in GW2. Do you not remember the dungeon grind at launch that people complained about? Pentinent grind? The fractal skin grind? The ascended mats grind? The precursor grind? Champ grinding? The T6 grind? The Lodestone grind? Silk grinding? Ecto grinding? I mean there is very few aspects of GW2 that haven’t been associated with grinding and then complained about.

Time gating is NOT a grind. It prevents grind.

In the old days, you could do dungeons over and over again to farm tokens. They time gated those tokens. After that people didn’t talk about grinding tokens. If anything time gating is a measure to PREVENT grind. Anyone who calls time gating a grind isn’t using any definition I’ve ever heard.

Yes there has always been a low undercurrent of people complaining about those things, but it’s dwarfed by the number of threads about mounts.

There will always be people complaining about lots of stuff, but it’s not prevalent and hasn’t been in a long long time.

Time-gating itself isn’t ‘grind’ no, but it does increase the time-spawn (not the length) of a grind. So in stead of grinding one day for 3 hours and have what you got you are now grinding 2 weeks 15 minutes a day. So it is not really grind indeed but it can increase the time-spawn in what you are grinding. So it is not strange it get mentioned in grind thread. Many people would then likely prefer to do it once for 3 hours and be done with the grind.

aerial.7021:

Devata.6589:

In stead of trying to end every argument with the ‘you do not have the exact numbers’.

Was attempting to create balance.

Well I think everybody knows we do not have any exact numbers. So that balance already exist. But then I guess you comment was more to inform the people who did think we all had exact factual numbers.

In that case it’s nice of you to inform them while I think everybody well did know that already.

Vayne.8563:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

This isn’t some big huge thing that huge numbers of people are complaining about. This is a pet peeve of a small percentage of the population who got riled up because Anet used the word grind and said the game wasn’t grindy. If that hadn’t happened, this thread wouldn’t even exist.

Yes, yes it would.

I have utter and complete faith it would still exist in some form. We might not be complaining about the same things as far as grind . . .

This thread is specifically about the no grind philosophy which was brought up at the launch. If the word grind hadn’t been mentioned in the launch people would be talking more about HoT and less about this.

Also there are a lot of things that people post in grind threads that aren’t about the grind itself.

Time gating is not grind, if anything it’s anti grind. It’s an alternate way to slow down progress. If something is time gated, you can’t grind it.

RNG – RNG is not grind. It’s a way of slowing down how fast you get something. You can grind the whole world over and over for a precursor, but what’s being complained about there is the random element…not grind.

Not getting good enough drops – This is not grind either, it’s people complaining they somehow have unlucky accounts and they don’t get the stuff other people do.

There are some grind complaints on these forums but they’re generally few and far between or have been for the last year or so anyway.

“RNG – RNG is not grind. It’s a way of slowing down how fast you get something. You can grind the whole world over and over for a precursor, but what’s being complained about there is the random element…not grind” bad RNG can result in grind so that is completely on topic and about grind. If you make an extreme low drop-rate (RNG) and then put that drop in many places (exactly what Anet does with many items that are ingame) it means the only reasonable way to get them is to grind for gold and buy them. So yes, RNG can be the result of grind so when people talk about RNG they can very well be talking about grind.

Anyway you are saying, in the grind topics people also talk about other things but you forget that in many other topics grind is mentioned as well.

Vayne.8563:

At the time when ascended gear was added to the game, there were a whole lot of posts about people leaving because they had nothing to do. The only way Anet could have added something to do in a timely manner, was to add something time gated that helped people stay in game longer toward that goal. I didn’t like it but I got why they did it. The forums were a zoo. Every day there were posts about people who ran out of stuff to do. Anet made a decision based on forum posts. Yet you dislike their solution.

The solution of providing more and more content wasn’t an option because the content your’e talking about takes too much time to implement if they needed to head off what was quickly becoming a stampede.

But more to the point. we hardly see grind complaints, UNTIL Anet brings up the words no grind. And then we get threads like this.

Before this thread, I think you could count on one hand the number of times a month that anyone said they had a problem with the game being grindy.

This isn’t some big huge thing that huge numbers of people are complaining about. This is a pet peeve of a small percentage of the population who got riled up because Anet used the word grind and said the game wasn’t grindy. If that hadn’t happened, this thread wouldn’t even exist.

“At the time when ascended gear was added to the game, there were a whole lot of posts about people leaving because they had nothing to do.” Oow now I am getting this part. I see people mention that back before ascended was introduced people where asking for that on the forums. And while I was not very active I did read the forums a little but can’t remember the outcry for vertical progression some are claiming. But indeed there where many people complaining there was nothing to do and even I had some time I was just standing in LA. The solution for me was WvW and guild-missions that got introduced.

Anyway, so that out-cry about no end-game is now being translated as an outcry for vertical progression. But why could that not have been horizontal progression. You know, the cosmetics hunt we are now talking about. Maybe Anet reacted on the forums but with the wrong solution? Or maybe fractals would have been enough without the special gear, just adding agony infusions to exotics?

“Yet you dislike their solution.” I dislike their solution? I am not complaining about ascended gear am I? I don’t care for stats so also don’t care for them adding that. I guess you can conclude it’s not a very good solution if so many people dislike it.

“The solution of providing more and more content wasn’t an option because the content your’e talking about takes too much time to implement” What I am talking about here (or the last two years) was never meant as quick solution for that moment. We could have a discussion how they should have tackled that but that is kind of useless at this point. It is also not what this thread is about. So I am not so sure why you are commenting these things to me. This thread is about grind, not about possible bad decisions in the past, not about how they should have done that in the past and I also didn’t say much about ascended gear myself. What I am talking about is the future.

“But more to the point.”
That would be nice

“we hardly see grind complaints, UNTIL Anet brings up the words no grind. And then we get threads like this.”
Seriously? You never did see people use the term Grind Wars? I have seen that many times in map-chat. I mentioned it multiple times before. I have seen a lot of talk about it on the forum (not that all the thread names are directly about grind but the conversations in it are) like threads where people complain about nothing to do or the game being boring and even the complain about no end-game, for those who dislike grind and like horizontal progression the reason why there is no end-game for them is because that is locked behind the grind. So there have been many complains about it, directly and indirectly.

If people don’t creating new threads about it so much anymore it’s likely because they said about it what they had so say. Bloggers are not going to keep blogging about that subject. and for many people they don’t keep posting about it. You also do not see daily threads about the NPE anymore, or blogs on game-sites about it. That does not mean they are suddenly fine with all the changes but because it’s a known complain and they said about it what they had so say about it. Colin’s statement was just a trigger to awaken this existing subject again but yeah the grind is mentioned plenty in many threads, map-chat and so on.

“If that hadn’t happened, this thread wouldn’t even exist.” Well at least it is true this exact thread is a direct reaction on that claim so would not have been there without it. But why was the thread created? Because somebody, or people did feel the grind is to grindy and then see Colin again talk about no grind.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

aerial.7021:

Devata.6589:

That same vocal minority that did say people where leveling but they were wrong, they were just a vocal minority (until Anet came with the statement they where losing to many people even before they where max level).

Can’t really say why they left, you could if so desired express why you left and other can express that same sentiment in this thread, and I suppose you could voice those by proxy that you know, but even that as a singularity given the scale of the number of people in this forum wouldn’t be enough data to draw a complete conclusion, you would have to ask all of those that have true left the reason why?

And those reasons could be far and wide, from “I didn’t like the business model for the game” to “My pet hamster ate my CD”.

I’m a big fan and support of ideas that expose truth so too that end, an >in game< voting system that cannot be bypassed would be a great idea, as relying on game meta data isn’t a good way to see what people ‘feel’ about things, you have to get into the dirt and play in there sand pit and ask them “all”.

But it’s not an option to ask them all so we have to use some common sense, open our ears and so on. Then we see ‘grind’ is a much complain you hear and so it might be wise if Anet did try to do something about it.

In stead of trying to end every argument with the ‘you do not have the exact numbers’.

Suppose Anet listens to you though, and eliminates some of that grind and those people who left left because they didn’t have enough to work for that meant something to them and what they really wanted was more grind.

Maybe every time someone leaves, Anet should add more grind to the game,. because it might be what they wanted.

Bad thought process is bad.

I am not saying ‘listen to me’, I say, look at what people say on the forums and all I try to provide is some idea’s to think about. Showing at least how I do think about it.

The option to grind does not disappears in my suggestion, it just becomes exactly that.. an option.

And as I do not see a lot of people asking for more grind but I do see many complains about grind you are right.. Bad thought process is bad. and with all we know that would indeed be a bag thought process.

aerial.7021:

Devata.6589:

That same vocal minority that did say people where leveling but they were wrong, they were just a vocal minority (until Anet came with the statement they where losing to many people even before they where max level).

Can’t really say why they left, you could if so desired express why you left and other can express that same sentiment in this thread, and I suppose you could voice those by proxy that you know, but even that as a singularity given the scale of the number of people in this forum wouldn’t be enough data to draw a complete conclusion, you would have to ask all of those that have true left the reason why?

And those reasons could be far and wide, from “I didn’t like the business model for the game” to “My pet hamster ate my CD”.

I’m a big fan and support of ideas that expose truth so too that end, an >in game< voting system that cannot be bypassed would be a great idea, as relying on game meta data isn’t a good way to see what people ‘feel’ about things, you have to get into the dirt and play in there sand pit and ask them “all”.

But it’s not an option to ask them all so we have to use some common sense, open our ears and so on. Then we see ‘grind’ is a much complain you hear and so it might be wise if Anet did try to do something about it.

In stead of trying to end every argument with the ‘you do not have the exact numbers’.

CETheLucid.3964:

Devata.6589:

CETheLucid.3964:

Devata.6589:

CETheLucid.3964:

I need one of these. Badly!

I don’t care if it’s a whole new animal to tame as part of the expansion, or if you want to add aesthetics/skins to already existing pets through the gem shop.

I just… want one! Please let me tame one? Pleeeeeease?

I would prefer to make it an interesting tame. But the cash-shop? Really? I will pay for the expansion, how about that?

Yeah let’s make the whole taming process more interesting (hit, buying it form a cash-shop is not interesting) but there is already a thread about that so I would suggest going there.

Other thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/More-Pets/first#post4763145

I say that because I don’t really understand why we haven’t had a new pet since Southsun Cove.

I’m thinking maybe they hit a technical limit to how many pets they can have in the game? I have no idea.

If something like that is the case though, I don’t see the harm in adding simple aesthetics to pet’s that we already have.

That can be done in game, through the gem shop. If it’s simply an aesthetic, it doesn’t matter gameplay wise since it’s just a “skin”.

It still gives an avenue for “new” pets, a bit like the GW1 HoM pets.

If it was offered in the gem shop or simply as part of the expansion (preferably), I’d be content with that.

If it can become a brand new pet all of it’s own in the expansion, that’d be even better. I’d love to see a genuinely expanded pet collection/family to choose from.

But we just haven’t seen that happen and I don’t know why.

But the means doesn’t matter to me. If Anet makes it available in the game as a pet, I’m getting one. I’d really like one.

Please let us have one!
Those little dinos could obviously use some ranger intervention!

“That can be done in game, through the gem shop. If it’s simply an aesthetic, it doesn’t matter gameplay wise since it’s just a “skin”. “

Uhhm yes it does. The hunt for a rare pet is amazing, in fact one of the most fun elements I find in an MMO. Just buying it completely destroys that. Sure it already does not exist in GW2 but when we are talking about new pets or adding ones, then why not make it.

I’m not disagreeing with you. You can’t improve on something that doesn’t exist.

If it happens, I’m all for it as a rare pet hunt, a new class of pet family, and something to look forward to expanding in the future.

If it can’t play out like that for whatever reason, I’m all for a gem shop option for “skins”, in the vein of GW1 HoM pets.

I have a preference but ultimately if it is a choice between not having a dino at all VS less ideal gem shop option for reskinned pets, I’ll take the later over the former.

Is that a difficult concept to understand?

Sure, I guess I just do not know why you think it’s possible that one would be an option and the other wouldn’t.

If they put it in the cash-shop it would be because they choose to (very cheap when you do that after people by an expansion) not because they have to, to be able to put it in there.

The expansion will have some more challenging stuff (from development standpoint) then making an existing beast (skin) tamable. Normally this should be really easy if it’s about the skin alone.

The only thing it might effect is there willingness but then again, we are getting a complete new expansion that we pay for. Some new pets to tame is something I simply expect in there. It happens in the other mmo’s I know.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

The ppl (the vocal minority) that came in the forums didnt know what else to do in the game and demanded those aspects i typed you .
That vocal minority at that period of time , really stired away the game in the wrong direction and OTHER PPL HAVE LEFT BECAUSE OF IT .

The same happening in the last 9 days when the majority of the popualtion hate the idea that they have grind the Achentant gear , while some other VOCAL MINORITY wants something entirly different from the rest of the community , even something that can disturb the 2-week updates …

The vocal minority should be quiet for a bit to hear the MAJORITY of the complaint and dont mount up the thread , like they own it

And again dont tell me it hurt the ‘’fun of endgame’’ , When you can go in specific areas of the game and have your ‘’friendly farm’’ and have gold in the same time .
Doing the same istance over and over for a item to drop , for the majority of the ppl is CALLED GRIND

The mount in WoW was offered if you login in the first day of the launch , while haveing access to the rescaled MC + getting the korgi was offered in the 10th universery (i thought you didnt play WoW for a long time)

.(why the kitties in gw2 are so fat ?)

cya tommorow

That same vocal minority that did say people where leveling but they were wrong, they were just a vocal minority (until Anet came with the statement they where losing to many people even before they where max level).

‘The vocal minority’ statement is just as empty as the ‘you don’t know the real numbers so you can’t say anything about this’ or the ‘this is nor your game, go play another game’ arguments.

The majority of players who even came to GW2 seemed to have already left. How about that? Maybe that ‘vocal minority’ is all that is left of them and there suggestions might be the solution to bring that majority back.

DavidH.7380:

~

That is what I found most appealing about your idea of item versions. A basic with a high drop rate, a mild vanity rarer version, and a high vanity very rare version considers a lot of player types. Low skill/time/dedication players have an obtainable, functional, but low vanity version to pursue. More dedicated players can time sink more to chase for some vanity/cosmetics. And the elite players have a major grind / time sink / elite version to keep them busy or give them that unique peakitten feel they find rewarding.

Any change or proposal will alienate some, but like you I think the ideas are worth discussing as long as we don’t end up arguing one group against another or attacking/defending one group of players.

Disclaimer: Everything I say here is my vision and my idea of how things are. Where I have real numbers I use them, else I will base my idea’s on what I see, feel, think and makes logical sense. (looks like this disclaimer is necessary)

I do try to think about all groups with my suggestions. That what you noticed (you talk about the example I gave with the hammer for easy, harder, and epic content / dungeon right?) is just one example where I try to appeal to those who like easy and / or median and / or hard content. But with that I could already see the threads ‘I completed on epic mode but now I get punished for it by giving my hammer this ugly glow’ so I already suggest to allow to turn those visual upgrades on and off. To not angry those people, that group.

In my reward system you would still be able to grind gold for many items.. Maybe less as now because it would likely result in more account-bound items but overall it would still allow you to grind gold for most of them. Grinding gold is then (when done right) not the optimal way but it’s a possibility. So not to alienate the people who prefer that.

Then I suggested to also have a few extremely rare ones (extreme low drop-rate from one boss or something like that) this to address those who prefer the extremely rare items. You also mentioned that group. But only a few to not scare away collectors.

Lastly there might be people who are afraid some item they might want to get will be account-bound and behind content like a dungeon they do not like (with my system) so the only way to do that is by grinding gold. (something that also now can be the case (Liadri) but would be a little more likely in ‘my’ reward system).

However then I place this group against the people who’s ‘content’ they might not like is a boring gold grind and in the current model have an item they might like behind that content / grind. Basically people with the same problem, something is locked behind ‘content’ they do not like. And as now most items are locked behind the gold-grind it’s easy to see how that group is much much bigger.

Making my model fit more with the ‘play the way you want’ statement as more people will be able to play the way they want and it becomes lesser that somebody has to do something he dislikes to earn some reward.

Some people here say ‘oow it’s cosmetics so that might be grindy’ but then they only think about them-self, being more into stats. I am not suggesting P2W and having cosmetics being in the game (this being a game about cosmetics) because I know it hurts them.

So who am I then still leaving out.. Those who don’t want to buy expansions and understand no cash-shop focus means more expansions. But then again, they did buy a B2P game and payed the game in the first place. Is it then to hard to ask to buy an expansion once a year?, and they are not even required to buy it. Not to mention that multiple of them likely do spend money on the cash-shop (like people who can’t pay a phone of 600 dollar so buy the same for 36 with a subscription for 2 years) so I do not feel it’s to much to ask from them. But more important, it’s not a game-play reason. It has more to do with there personal financial situation and I am firstly looking at if from a game perspective. What is best for the game itself.

The other group is the group who just want to show of with the best goods and just want to buy everything being cool but not really wanna play. For the lack of a better word a lazy gamer. Problem there is that buying everything gets old pretty fast so I don’t think there are many left of them by now anyway.

So I do try to look at as many people as possible, not just myself.

Not sure why anybody would think so especially when there are also people saying things like ‘just put cosmetics behind grind because that it optional’. Now thats the group who is only thinking about myself. For a cosmetics person stats are just as optional as skins are for the stats guy and cosmetics are just as important as stats are for the other guy.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

But there is some truth in here, it’s likely that many (there is that word again) of those people have left because there preferred end-game was not here so at this moment there are less of them here (in the game). But what if they come back for HoT. You want to scare them away again.

I think the word many is very well in place here. It’s not an exact number as I do not know that, I even don’t know the hyperbole ‘all’ no just many. Then it’s up to you to decide what ‘many’ is.

Besides, it’s a subject I find interesting so I post here a lot. Having a conversation. Better then post and run imo.

Look back the last pages (1474 page) and try to read all the threads from 2 years ago …. You can see page after page for ppl that have maxxed out and dont know what to do next and the want raids and more gear progression like other MMOs.

We have the data why ’ ppl didnt like the the game .
You claim that ppl left that they didnt have minis or things to hunt down in the game ?
Why then you say in Vayne :

2 problems here. There are a lot of cosmetics and it will only become more. Just waiting till you earn it is not really an option.. not only if you want them all but also if you want multiple.

?
So we have too many thing ingame and more are coming constantly or this in not true ? Ddidnt you aegue that the Gem store vs ingame items it wrong and they should implant more in the game ?

And again you dont know how MANY IS MANY , when you try to messure the meaning of the word from your friendlist data (‘’i know ppl that left the game , cause is grindy ’’)…

I can stop the post and run , if you wish . But i try to hold back till i know if you are a girl or not , or a gw1 player (i cant touch them) :P

Haven’t seen that many post asking for vertical progression to be honest. And I am not so sure you do have that data if you think that was the main reason. Why then did people keep leaving also after the introduction of ascended stuff?

“You claim that ppl left that they didnt have minis or things to hunt down in the game ? ”
Now I see the problem why your comment did not seem to make any sense to me. You are likely not really into that stuff yourself and so don’t understand the difference between it being available and the ability to hunt it down.

The problem I talk about is that for most of the items the only viable way to get them is by grinding gold. You could consider that ‘hunting down items’ but then thats the grind way, not the direct way like really hunting it down. Vayne set ‘but you don’t have to grind and still buy the items from the gold you earn along the way.’ Well he then forgets that the hunt itself is part of the fun / end-game. And the fact that only more items are getting added means that earning stuff along the way just does not do it. That was my point. Hope you understand it now.

“So we have too many thing ingame and more are coming constantly or this in not true ?” No not to many, let them coming. But it does mean the ‘earn the money while you play and then buy’ just isn’t a option. You never earn enough money along the way.

“Ddidnt you aegue that the Gem store vs ingame items it wrong and they should implant more in the game ? ” Yes.

“And again you dont know how MANY IS MANY , when you try to messure the meaning of the word from your friendlist data (‘’i know ppl that left the game , cause is grindy ’’) ” Yeah, this is always an easy argument. You don’t know the numbers. True, so I don’t give an exact number, but talk about many but then you complain about that. What should I then say? I do think it are many. We both don’t have the real numbers.

“I can stop the post and run , if you wish . ” I don’t care. Did I ask you to run?

CETheLucid.3964:

Devata.6589:

CETheLucid.3964:

I need one of these. Badly!

I don’t care if it’s a whole new animal to tame as part of the expansion, or if you want to add aesthetics/skins to already existing pets through the gem shop.

I just… want one! Please let me tame one? Pleeeeeease?

I would prefer to make it an interesting tame. But the cash-shop? Really? I will pay for the expansion, how about that?

Yeah let’s make the whole taming process more interesting (hit, buying it form a cash-shop is not interesting) but there is already a thread about that so I would suggest going there.

Other thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/More-Pets/first#post4763145

I say that because I don’t really understand why we haven’t had a new pet since Southsun Cove.

I’m thinking maybe they hit a technical limit to how many pets they can have in the game? I have no idea.

If something like that is the case though, I don’t see the harm in adding simple aesthetics to pet’s that we already have.

That can be done in game, through the gem shop. If it’s simply an aesthetic, it doesn’t matter gameplay wise since it’s just a “skin”.

It still gives an avenue for “new” pets, a bit like the GW1 HoM pets.

If it was offered in the gem shop or simply as part of the expansion (preferably), I’d be content with that.

If it can become a brand new pet all of it’s own in the expansion, that’d be even better. I’d love to see a genuinely expanded pet collection/family to choose from.

But we just haven’t seen that happen and I don’t know why.

But the means doesn’t matter to me. If Anet makes it available in the game as a pet, I’m getting one. I’d really like one.

Please let us have one!
Those little dinos could obviously use some ranger intervention!

“That can be done in game, through the gem shop. If it’s simply an aesthetic, it doesn’t matter gameplay wise since it’s just a “skin”. “

Uhhm yes it does. The hunt for a rare pet is amazing, in fact one of the most fun elements I find in an MMO. Just buying it completely destroys that. Sure it already does not exist in GW2 but when we are talking about new pets or adding ones, then why not make it.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

~

~

It seems you are not a GW1 player , so i can be less gentle :P

When you say ’’many’’ and you have made 153 posts in here (from the total of 963 comments) , then by many you mean ‘’ 153 Devatas’’ .

You should avoid general the word ’’many’’ , because you are using it wrong , over and over again but try to make up silly arguments to defend yourself when a player ask you about that

Serophous.9085:

Serophous.9085:

OK OK. MOST people. Gotcha. So then, MOST people who play the game must be posting in this topic ATM right? And not the same people over and over talking in circles?

~

When Vayne got rewards with items , she sold them + in the same time get rewarded with gold = x2 money she got , so she didnt grind gold , but she got rewarded for playing .

When you say : ‘’Where is the ‘play the way you want’ if you want to hunt these items down in the world? It’s not in any viable way there’’ , your argument is invalid
, becuase you can actually hunt them down , BECAUSE THEY DROP FROM THE WORLD , but Vayne choosed the most easy solution (buy them the Black Market) .
You told us that that staying in a area , and w8 for an item to drop over and over again for you into not grind , but a friendly farm .

Try to take the chill pill and let us here the other ppl opinions too (even Vayne agrees with the Grind) . So chilll a bit …. for the good , of us both ….

Yeah because I was clearly the only person in this thread mentioning it. And of course a game about cosmetics clearly does not attract people who not care about hunting down cosmetics. But there is some truth in here, it’s likely that many (there is that word again) of those people have left because there preferred end-game was not here so at this moment there are less of them here (in the game). But what if they come back for HoT. You want to scare them away again.

The size of this group gets extremely underestimated I think. Maybe that is the success of WoW? It’s known for the raid and tear-grind but what was the reward they put in for the 10th anniversary? A mount, a ground mount. So purely cosmetic… oow and a mini, again purely cosmetic. But I guess they did that just to please Devata. They where like, Devata will come have a look again if we do this. That’s probably it.

And then of course Anet, they are monetizing something clearly nobody wants. And those all those people grinding gold to get them clearly would not prefer a less boring more interesting way to get it.

Really, start using some common sense.

I think the word many is very well in place here. It’s not an exact number as I do not know that, I even don’t know the hyperbole ‘all’ no just many. Then it’s up to you to decide what ‘many’ is.

“BECAUSE THEY DROP FROM THE WORLD” Luckily I pick my words very carefully because I know there are people like you. Factually you are right (about some items). You can hunt them down because they drop in the world. Just start killing anything and maybe 1 million kill later it dropped.. You see you can work towards it. Realistically it is of-course complete nonsense.
It’s like telling somebody that he can get rich simply by buying lottery tickets. Sure he can but it’s not the most realistic way to get rich is it?
I can not do some specific content that I know of will be rewarding that reward in a realistic way. That is why I use the words ’in any viable way ’.

Secondly, almost all cash-shop items do not drop in the world! So even your factual but realistically non-existing option of working directly towards them does not exist for those items. And that happen to be the most interesting from a pure cosmetic perspective.

“You told us that that staying in a area , and w8 for an item to drop over and over again for you into not grind , but a friendly farm .” The boring farm? I think I said I could be oke with a few of those when the rest was interesting. Not that that what the way I would want to see it.

“Try to take the chill pill and let us here the other ppl opinions too (even Vayne agrees with the Grind) . So chilll a bit …. for the good , of us both …. ”
I was already planning on not being to active here as I pretty much said what had to been said. But if somebody gives a comment to me (like you do now) I comment back.

Besides, it’s a subject I find interesting so I post here a lot. Having a conversation. Better then post and run imo.

CETheLucid.3964:

I need one of these. Badly!

I don’t care if it’s a whole new animal to tame as part of the expansion, or if you want to add aesthetics/skins to already existing pets through the gem shop.

I just… want one! Please let me tame one? Pleeeeeease?

I would prefer to make it an interesting tame. But the cash-shop? Really? I will pay for the expansion, how about that?

Yeah let’s make the whole taming process more interesting (hit, buying it form a cash-shop is not interesting) but there is already a thread about that so I would suggest going there.

Other thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/More-Pets/first#post4763145

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Lifestealer.4910:

Aenesthesia.1697:

~

~

~

He does not say he love raids (so those other games would possibly also not what I preferred) but he says this is even worse. Making that statement by saying he would rather do raids, something he also dislikes. That’s how I read it.

However, what he hits here is the exact issue and your comment is not really helpful. Suggesting he should leave.. If they all leave (and they might have) it’s a problem for the game don’t you think.

So instead of suggesting that you better find out what he dislikes. What he expected when Anet promised no grind. He is at no point saying the current grind should be replaced by raid rewarding everything because that’s the way to do it. Then I would sort of understand your comment.

I’ve questioned your logic from time to time but this logic is the worst yet.

First of all, if I opened a vegetarian restaurant, and someone didn’t like that, they probably shouldn’t be eating here.

This game, at this point, is relatively clearly defined. That is, ascended gear was introduced more than two years ago. The grind for it is what it was two years ago, except in some ways it’s less because so many of us have a boatload of ascended materials now. At least for weapons it’s not much of a grind anymore. I have everything.

The point is, Anet isn’t going to take this vegetarian restaurant and make it a steakhouse. Changing the game to make certain people like it, might be others hate it. I don’t see why people don’t understand that.

I took his post at face value. He likes stuff that’s in other games. He should go play them. This is a normal logical suggestion. I don’t like opera so I don’t watch opera. I don’t go into operas and try to get them to be rock concerts.

Well that logic already resulted in some predictions that turned out to be true.

Also the logic was not about him having to stay or not but you telling him to leave instead of wanting to use his feedback to maybe find out why other people leave.

“First of all, if I opened a vegetarian restaurant, and someone didn’t like that, they probably shouldn’t be eating here.”
Yeah but what if somebody gets there, asks for the meal of the day and get fish because fish is not meat and so vegetarian foot. In this case the restaurant isn’t even factually wrong but is it strange that the customer complains about that? Should the restaurant not wonder if that complain this customer gives them, but still keeps coming back for the other dishes, might be the reason the restaurant gets less and less customers. Should he not use that information to try to make their product better, retain and get back some customers?

My logic says: ‘yeah listen to it, and if it’s indeed so that this is the reason you are losing customers, do something with it’.

You logic says: ‘Tell him it’s vegetarian and if he complains about that he better go eat somewhere else. We have customers who are fine with it, this clearly is your restaurant’.

Funny, that makes me wonder about your logic and also means I’m not surprise you find my logic strange. They are not really compatible with it. But that’s not really new right, we have debated with each other before.

It’s not like anybody is asking the restaurant to become a steakhouse.
Really all that is happening is that somebody is pointing out that many customers who go to a vegetarian restaurant don’t expect fish, and might be put off by it.. Especially not as meal of the day.

Back to this game. They released a horizontal progression game all about cosmetics, you can decide how to play the game and there is no grind. People get here and like some elements of the game but also notice that this horizontal progression for cosmetics (what they liked to much) is very grindy, and that grindy way is basically the only option to go for it. Or other people who see ascended gear and don’t like that vertical progression. So they complain about it. Meanwhile Anet is losing players. Your answer is basically is ‘this game is not for you, leave’. Yeah with all my strange logic I disagree with your reaction.

“This game, at this point, is relatively clearly defined.” You missed a very important part. There is an expansion on the way (where again they promised no grind), that is also what triggered this thread. The perfect time to get back the customers who did leave and this time try to hold them.

Vayne.8563:

I have five legendaries now. But I did very little grinding, in my opinion. I waited till I got stuff and sold stuff I got and bought stuff off the trading post that I needed. I mean I did have to run 9 dungeons, you could call that grind, but I didn’t run them in a row. It took me months because I waited till someone in the guild wanted to run it.

That’s what I mean by a state of mind.

2 problems here. There are a lot of cosmetics and it will only become more. Just waiting till you earn it is not really an option.. not only if you want them all but also if you want multiple.

Secondly “I got stuff and sold stuff I got and bought stuff off the trading post that I needed.” Yeah you see, that is what some people consider boring. Where is the hunt for it? It’s get ‘stuff’ sell it and then buy the things you want / need.

This way can still be a way but the hunt way should also be available and it’s not. Where is the ‘play the way you want’ if you want to hunt these items down in the world? It’s not in any viable way there.. so if you want to actively chase those items, grinding (gold) is the only real option. But the that option is one many people dislike. What results in so many people saying this game is a grind.

Alvagon.8710:

Vayne.8563:

I don’t get some of you at all. I play this game with no ascended gear and, I don’t know about you, but I do dungeons, WvW, run around Orr. There’s NOTHING gated in this game that makes you grind if you don’t want to. Don’t have a ring or a backpack? So? This is all in your mind. You don’t need this stuff to play the game.

More to the point, most of the dailies are stuff I get just doing other stuff anyway. I mean rezzing people? Really? Crafting 10 ingots?

Grind is a state of mind. I played Guild Wars 1 for five years and PLENTY of people grinded in Guild Wars. They farmed ectos in the underworld, they did voltaic spear runs, speed clears of dungeons. They farmed faction for Luxon and Kurzick rank. Anyone who thinks there was no grind in Guild Wars 1 probably didn’t play as much as they think. But all that grind was voluntary.

The same is true here. You CAN grind, if you want. Or you can just play the game. Without even trying to get dailies, 90% of the time I got it without knowing I was going to. It just happened. I’d go around, kill stuff, do events and by the end of my play time I had my daily.

Today my daily consisted of 13 kill types, 60 kills, 10 rezzes, 15 dodges and 20 gathering.

The gather, and 60 kills is a no brainer. Dodging 15 times…in the course of a gaming session I’ll dodge a lot more than that. It’s not really hard. And NPCs are lying around dead all over the place…in end zones, in outposts that have been taken over, in certain hearts and events, so rezz ten of them. How in the name of Lyssa is that grind? Kill types? The only way you won’t get 13 kill types is if you never leave Orr. You can get them in WvW, or PVe pretty much wherever you are. Don’t forget to kill mosquitos, rabbits and those other zero level creatures, because they count.

I saw some people were complaining about a crafting daily. You can get it by making 10 of any kind of ingot. It requires almost no time to farm copper or leather, just by playing in a starter zone and then make your stuff.

I just don’t get it. You know, I’ve played games with grind. And what made those games grind was the gating of content. If you wanted to do dungeons in Rift, you HAD TO have a minimum stat. You couldn’t even queue for the dungeon if you didn’t exceed that stat. So to get into the dungeon and experience that content, you had to grind. You had to get the required gear. That situation simply doesn’t exist in Guild Wars 2.

This game isn’t going in the wrong direction. People simply have forgotten what actual grind is.

Its smth that i found in your oldest posts and lol i must admit “Grind is a state of mind.” i can agree too that just plz plz plz tell us what you’re taking maybe a prescription ? So many more ppl can enjoy Gw2 the way you doo…

And remember “This is all in your mind.”

The thread itself is also interesting. It’s about somebody being afraid the game is going to much in the direction of more grind. Some other people in there agreeing and even the cash-shop as reason is already mentioned there (not by me). Looks like they were right and who knows, they might be among the people GW2 loses so getting them back surely seems to be in solving the grind-problem.

aerial.7021:

Vayne.8563:

Lifestealer.4910:

Aenesthesia.1697:

Oh, so, by anet’s definition, having to kill a raid boss, for a 15% chance to get the sword I want = grind.

Being able to get that same sword after:

- spending hundreds of hours hoarding mats or gold to buy the mats needed to craft other mats needed to craft the sword (with time gating, because kitten)
- get that sword via killing any mob in game, with a drop chance of 0,00000001%

= no grind!!!

Give me back my grind, please.

/Thread

nothing more need to be said. False advertising and lies of no grind is what got me hooked into this game in the first place, only to find out everything is a lie.

There way of not making us grind is by making the grind so obnoxiously painful its like i am playing p2w game.

I trade lottery grind for raids anyday.

Plenty of those games out there for you. Why are you even hanging around here if that’s the case. Sounds like you’ve made up your mind.

Maybe – considering the time and effort spent on the game by both the company and him/us as players, it being graphically (personal opinion) better than anything else out there right now, he might be hoping (me included) that Anet will eventually make good on there advertising.

But as I pointed out before its setup this way to make money, now I can’t begrudge them for trying to make money got to feed the family and all. What I’d advise is do not make sweeping general statements like, “no grind” when clearly there is some that some by personal definition and goals can be a lot or a little depending on those goals, what I’d also advise in addition is not to put stats behind time-gates and grind, but instead put the skins there as skins with no stats so that it is clear it’s just something to transmute over your current armor.

Oow that is really nice, so you are willing to think what the stats people like but heey screw those that care about cosmetics. Give them the boring currency and time-gated grind you don’t want.

You know why I am not asking for P2W? You see, I don’t care for PvP and stats are not that interesting for me in an MMO (For PvP (not talking about WvW) I prefer a FPS where skill is important, not the armor or build you have). So them making money on stats selling the best gear for PvP would not even hurt me a little and if they made money that way they could maybe put the cosmetics in the game so I can have fun with them.

But I do not suggest something like that because I know it would hurt the people who care about PvP and stats. So it would be nice if you guys, stat guys, would also think about those who care about cosmetics. Especially in a game that’s all about cosmetics.

Vayne.8563:

Lifestealer.4910:

Aenesthesia.1697:

Oh, so, by anet’s definition, having to kill a raid boss, for a 15% chance to get the sword I want = grind.

Being able to get that same sword after:

- spending hundreds of hours hoarding mats or gold to buy the mats needed to craft other mats needed to craft the sword (with time gating, because kitten)
- get that sword via killing any mob in game, with a drop chance of 0,00000001%

= no grind!!!

Give me back my grind, please.

/Thread

nothing more need to be said. False advertising and lies of no grind is what got me hooked into this game in the first place, only to find out everything is a lie.

There way of not making us grind is by making the grind so obnoxiously painful its like i am playing p2w game.

I trade lottery grind for raids anyday.

Plenty of those games out there for you. Why are you even hanging around here if that’s the case. Sounds like you’ve made up your mind.

He does not say he love raids (so those other games would possibly also not what I preferred) but he says this is even worse. Making that statement by saying he would rather do raids, something he also dislikes. That’s how I read it.

However, what he hits here is the exact issue and your comment is not really helpful. Suggesting he should leave.. If they all leave (and they might have) it’s a problem for the game don’t you think.

So instead of suggesting that you better find out what he dislikes. What he expected when Anet promised no grind. He is at no point saying the current grind should be replaced by raid rewarding everything because that’s the way to do it. Then I would sort of understand your comment.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

McSlappy.1372:

Vayne.8563:

~

~

~

its not simply advertising which makes wow win. Ads can get you to try, it doesnt get you to stay. And gw2 got a record number of people to try (fastest growing MMO in first 6 months) the difference is retention.
GW2 had an awesome box game with a ton of potential. after about the first 6-11 months, the game didnt really deliver. People stay with wow because for whatever reason they found it compelling and worthwhile to stay.

Perhaps this expansion will change things, but i really hope they seriously vet a lot of their changes. Many were not satisfied with the execution of a lot of their updates

Well it seems like Anet has some problem with everything they introduce, or change for that matter. With every positive they have some negative to comes with it.

It’s what I referred to before in this thread here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/8#post4741950

So I would not say it was just that changes they made where bad or anything but everything seems to have a negative going along with the positive.
As somebody who in MMO’s cares about cosmetics the game at release at seemed fine only the mini not being in the game was a drawback.. something I also did only find out later. I knew they had that one set in the cash-shop but figured many other would be in the world.
Turned out not to be true (but as long as this one set in the cash-shop was it, it would have been fine). Also the crafting is something I usually like but because there are no really fun crafts (and the hunt for recipe’s is not really a thing in GW2) I didn’t like that in GW2 but overall the game was fun and refreshing (compared to other mmo’s).
However the older it came the worse it got. The lack of cosmetic end-game while at the same time the cash-shop got more and more of it (so the grind got created that way) wasn’t really a positive. For other people It was the ascended stuff they disliked.

And look at all the feature patches. They added some great stuff but also at points did some totally strange things like some of the NPE changes that are just bad.

Personally I blame this part on their approach of being different for the sake of being different. For example go back to the quest vs dynamic events. They wanted to be new and refreshing so came with events, a true great solution but it simply cannot completely replace quest so why do so? All I can think of because they desperately want to be different. Now they could say they had an MMO without quest. That is unique.
That is then also what I do wonder about in the expansion. On paper everything sounds great and there goal to be original and innovative again seemed to have resulted in some truly amazing stuff But I am really hoping it does not again come with a drawback simply because they want to go one step to far. Things you will find out a few months / half a year later.

And what you will then see is that other games will copy these good idea’s but without going too far and so using Anet’s idea’s to get themselves a better product.

I hope Anet have gotten to their senses if it comes to this and hope in HoT they do find a good balance between new and innovative but not just being different for the sake of it. Remove the grind and make hunting cosmetics in this games (build around cosmetics) fun so they will have a bigger chance holding people. Many people who left will come back for HoT, but if they get bored or disappointed again 6 months after release of HoT they will be gone and you are not likely to ever see them back, also not for the 3th expansions.
So Anet better get HoT right, solving the grind problem is imho an important part of that (something I think they underestimate), what is also why this thread is so important. Anet did improve GW2 over the years but at the same time also made it worse on other parts. So let’s hope they really get HoP right. Again, on paper it’s all great but now let’s hope they also get in great in practice. Not being blinded by the cash-shop focus, not trying to go with quick and dirty solutions and not being blinded by being different for the sake of being different. (In my vision the 3 core problems Anet has that results in the most of the problems GW2 seems to have).

Agree, and not just more pets but make more interesting skins for them. Sorry I have to bring it up again but have a look at WoW (best hunter pet system I know of). There should be many different skins, all those pets should be all over the world (none in the cash-shop!!), some very rare ones, some that are extremely hard to tame. So also make the tame-process something more as just ‘press f’, make a more dynamic and interesting tame process.. I think my first time I suggested this was back in the beta forums.

And also give some more control over pets like the ability to send it to a specific location, defend an area or simply let it sit (or else some other default animation that maybe already exists for the beas).

That would be great.

Yes it’s some additional work for just one profession, but why not. True hunters, yes I said hunter because that is what I did mean.. those who like to hunt pets, like that sort of things, that’s why they become hunters. Once you have the system in place it should not be a lot of more work to add a new pets / skins once in a while and it’s not only for them, having a rare animal running around sometimes at some places is also a nice addition for the game-world.

Serophous.9085:

Vayne.8563:

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

snip

Sorry, I didn’t know doing something multiple times =/= grinding.

But in other news, since I like doing the same events MULTIPLE times in silverwastes, fighting the bosses durIng the breach MULTIPLE times, and the vinewrath and maze MULTIPLE times for fun because I do like the zone and events, then it isn’t a grind. The crests are just a bonus for me along with the bags I earn. If I use those bags and crests to make gold, then its all the more bonus to me.

Grind is subjective it seems.

Sure if you have fun doing it and the rewards are just an additional motivator then thats not a grind.

And don’t act as if it’s something new I am saying. If everything you do multiple times is a grind then any MP FPS is a grind because you do it multiple times, while the rewards are there (killing) and the currency is also there (points). But why does nobody call that a grind? Simply because people are not doing it just to get a number, being the best (the number) is a side thing, an additional motivator, they simply love shooting each other. Thats why nobody calls it a grind.

But yeah you act as if it’s silly what I say so I guess you always talk about how people are grinding FPS’s for kills. Oow and I guess you are grinding forum post here?

Where do we talk about grind? Mostly in RPG’s because thats the place where people tent to get into a grind.. doing something they do not really like but purely for the reward.

Well then, this thread is moot really as people just need to not think of what they’re doing as a grind and just have fun. Then anet told the truth, gw2 isn’t a grindy game.

If a lot of rewards are only available in a way that many if not most people consider a boring grind that is a problem and your game is grindy (for those elements).

A problem that should be talked about and really should be solved. That is what this topic is about. We already established like on page 2 or so that grind it’s also a personal thing. But it’s good to see you catching up.

OK OK. MOST people. Gotcha. So then, MOST people who play the game must be posting in this topic ATM right? And not the same people over and over talking in circles?

Actually I agree with Devata. Most people consider the way to get stuff in this game a boring grind. The problem is I’ve yet to see any MMO where it’s been otherwise.

It goes back to content can’t be produced fast enough so grind has to be introduced. The trick is to make it so all the grind items are optional and people can make their own choices.

Because making things easier to get, ie allowing people to have them faster just means people getting bored faster.

The grind is boring, but having nothing to work for is even more boring…to a lot of people…maybe even most.

Yeah, but if you just do things multiple times and have fun while getting rewards, its not grind.

This is getting hilarious. A few post ago you where acting basically as if I was crazy for saying exactly this.

So tell, you are just a troll?

And yes if you enjoy doing something multiple times it’s not a grind but as many if not most (so maby most, maybe not) people do consider is a boring grind they obviously don’t have a lot of fun doing it. They do it only for the reward only. (and if they get it they are likely burned out by the game).

I have seen many people leave after getting there legendary and not because they had no goal left as some where interested in another one but once they got there first there where all the bad memories from the last grind and the next goal would mean more of that.

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

~

Sorry, I didn’t know doing something multiple times =/= grinding.

But in other news, since I like doing the same events MULTIPLE times in silverwastes, fighting the bosses durIng the breach MULTIPLE times, and the vinewrath and maze MULTIPLE times for fun because I do like the zone and events, then it isn’t a grind. The crests are just a bonus for me along with the bags I earn. If I use those bags and crests to make gold, then its all the more bonus to me.

Grind is subjective it seems.

Sure if you have fun doing it and the rewards are just an additional motivator then thats not a grind.

And don’t act as if it’s something new I am saying. If everything you do multiple times is a grind then any MP FPS is a grind because you do it multiple times, while the rewards are there (killing) and the currency is also there (points). But why does nobody call that a grind? Simply because people are not doing it just to get a number, being the best (the number) is a side thing, an additional motivator, they simply love shooting each other. Thats why nobody calls it a grind.

But yeah you act as if it’s silly what I say so I guess you always talk about how people are grinding FPS’s for kills. Oow and I guess you are grinding forum post here?

Where do we talk about grind? Mostly in RPG’s because thats the place where people tent to get into a grind.. doing something they do not really like but purely for the reward.

Well then, this thread is moot really as people just need to not think of what they’re doing as a grind and just have fun. Then anet told the truth, gw2 isn’t a grindy game.

If a lot of rewards are only available in a way that many if not most people consider a boring grind that is a problem and your game is grindy (for those elements).

A problem that should be talked about and really should be solved. That is what this topic is about. We already established like on page 2 or so that grind it’s also a personal thing. But it’s good to see you catching up.

OK OK. MOST people. Gotcha. So then, MOST people who play the game must be posting in this topic ATM right? And not the same people over and over talking in circles?

Woow like everything you said here made no sense. Are you even still believing what you are saying yourself? Sorry but this comment was just sad.

1: I said “that many if not most people” you make of that ‘most’, even putting the word most in caps. Funny because by saying it the way I do I explicit say it do not have to be most.
This start already destroys your compelete statement.

2: Out of nowhere you just act as if it’s a matter of fact that everybody who plays the game and finds something grindy comes to the forum to post about it.

This nonsense idea would have also send your whole argument down the drain wasen’t it already destroyd before.

And that in a comment of two lines.

btw, didn’t many people stopped playing GW2? Would is be possible that the grind could be one of the reasons? And if so would it be wise to try to hold them when they come back for HoT?

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Erick Alastor.3917:

IndigoSundown.5419:

~

~

But there is a significant factor in this thread that is on topic. Devata believes that this game can get updates as fast as Guild Wars 1 did and I don’t believe it can. Those updates were easier to program because there were less people in each zone.

You do realize that in outposts in Guild Wars 1 you couldn’t even use skills. They were literally lobbies. The game was played in on a playing field where Anet knew exactly how many people would be present at each encounter. Either one person with 7 heroes in all of Sparkfly Swamp or 8 people. That’s what they had to design for. Those events didn’t scale. They didn’t interact with each other. Creatures didn’t spontaneously spawn.

That makes it harder to make and test a game. It takes longer. You need more dynamic events than quests (by a magnitude of 3 according to what Anet said) so that there’s usually something for people to do in a zone.

So where does grind fit in?

Grind is there to keep people from leaving the game between content updates. If you give people nothing to chip away at, many people will get bored and walk away.

There are many types of players, but I believe most of them don’t know how to make their own fun. They have to be led around by the nose.

It goes back to the release of ascended gear and keeping players in game. Would it have been better to have more content instead of ascended gear? Absolutely. But how many months would it have taken to make that new content, as opposed to added ascended gear to the game and once people blew through that content, what would Anet do then? It would take them months to make more content.

Anet added the ascended gear grind for the reason every MMORPG has grind. To keep people playing who need something to work on that shows a gain in power. Without that, people lose interest, as was the case with both my sons.

Not all people, but probably enough people to make a statement.

people need goals, and progression, not necessarily grind.
how well you can interweave this and maximize the enjoyment of of your content/game is the goal.
I feel with most of gw2 endgame goals they are failing to make the game more enjoyable. The game is best enjoyed by ignoring most of these endgame goals, thats a flaw in design.

the rewards as part of game design, are designed to enhance the experience and incentivize interesting play. If your rewards arent doing this, its a flaw in the design.

The problem here is one person’s progression is another person’s grind. I thought the ascended weapons were too grindy. Always have. Frankly I didn’t want them at all. But I believe that people were leaving the game because of nothing to do and the only thing that could be added quickly was something grindy. So Anet made a compromise. They put in this grind to keep people but didn’t make it necessary to do content.

Fast forward, Anet has a balancing act to perform. I don’t believe they can create content much faster than they’re doing and no matter what people are going to blow through content. So the artificial bumps in the road keep people in the game.

You might say why not just add a new dungeon. That’ll keep people playing. That’ll keep dungeon runners playing. It’s not going to keep me playing. Well you might say add a new PvP map. That’ll keep PvPers playing, but it won’t keep me playing. Well, you might say add stuff to WvW. That’ll keep the WvWer’s playing, but it won’t keep me playing.

Put in some achievements for me to go after, that’ll keep me playing. And its’ a lot faster htan designing a new dungeon, a new PvP map and new stuff for WvW. It’s a matter of balance.

Anet said when they started you’d be able to play how you wanted. What if a serious percentage of people want to grind?

What if a serious percentage of people want to hunt down cosmetics without the brainless grind gold being the ole real option to do so. Something that’s not even very strange to imagine for a game that is all about cosmetics at was promoted as having no grind?

Anyway it looks now like we have come to the point where everybody (or at least you) does agree there is some bad grind in GW2 but are trying to make up excuses for Anet. All fine but that does not solve the problem at hand or does not undo what people are saying here. People dislike the grind and talk about it. It does not matter if Anet had good excuses to make it this way.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Erick Alastor.3917:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Minor nitpick to your minor nitpick.

The game world in GW is not persistent. Only the towns/outposts (i.e., the lobbies) are.

Towns/Outposts were and are part of the world and the platforms that promoted social interactions. There were mobs to kill there? No, but that’s another story.
An online world is not by definition a place where you have to/can kill stuff.
Anyway this thread is not about GW1vsGW2. Feel free to prove that I’m wrong in what I say, I don’t care, I’ll stop now derailing the thread. Have a nice day :*

But there is a significant factor in this thread that is on topic. Devata believes that this game can get updates as fast as Guild Wars 1 did and I don’t believe it can. Those updates were easier to program because there were less people in each zone.

You do realize that in outposts in Guild Wars 1 you couldn’t even use skills. They were literally lobbies. The game was played in on a playing field where Anet knew exactly how many people would be present at each encounter. Either one person with 7 heroes in all of Sparkfly Swamp or 8 people. That’s what they had to design for. Those events didn’t scale. They didn’t interact with each other. Creatures didn’t spontaneously spawn.

That makes it harder to make and test a game. It takes longer. You need more dynamic events than quests (by a magnitude of 3 according to what Anet said) so that there’s usually something for people to do in a zone.

So where does grind fit in?

Grind is there to keep people from leaving the game between content updates. If you give people nothing to chip away at, many people will get bored and walk away.

There are many types of players, but I believe most of them don’t know how to make their own fun. They have to be led around by the nose.

It goes back to the release of ascended gear and keeping players in game. Would it have been better to have more content instead of ascended gear? Absolutely. But how many months would it have taken to make that new content, as opposed to added ascended gear to the game and once people blew through that content, what would Anet do then? It would take them months to make more content.

Anet added the ascended gear grind for the reason every MMORPG has grind. To keep people playing who need something to work on that shows a gain in power. Without that, people lose interest, as was the case with both my sons.

Not all people, but probably enough people to make a statement.

people need goals, and progression, not necessarily grind.
how well you can interweave this and maximize the enjoyment of of your content/game is the goal.
I feel with most of gw2 endgame goals they are failing to make the game more enjoyable. The game is best enjoyed by ignoring most of these endgame goals, thats a flaw in design.

the rewards as part of game design, are designed to enhance the experience and incentivize interesting play. If your rewards arent doing this, its a flaw in the design.

Exactly!
Those rewards / collecting is also for many people end-game.

Heck, during the HoT presentation Colin (I think it was Colin) even talked about how people liked collecting.

That is also why the whole ’it’s not ‘requires’ so it’s oke’ is complete nonsense. It is also exactly as you say.. this content, my end-game is in GW2 completely destroyed because if I wanted to do that it would just be this boring brainless grind what I am not going to do.

That is also exactly why people might in fact leave because of this.. not directly because of the grind but because they ignore the grind and then have nothing to do as this would have been their end-game content.

It’s exactly like you say “I feel with most of gw2 endgame goals they are failing to make the game more enjoyable. The game is best enjoyed by ignoring most of these endgame goals, thats a flaw in design.”. I did also like WvW and doing stuff with the guild so there were other things to do, but I had to ignore those goals, that what usually would have been my end-gam,e to be able to enjoy the game.

Vayne.8563:

Erick Alastor.3917:

Vayne.8563:

At the time Guild Wars 1 was created there were no free to play MMOs out at all.

False.

Vayne.8563:

And even though Guild Wars 1 itself wasn’t an MMO, it filled the niche of an MMO type of game for many people.

False.

CORPG is a term invented by anet. GW1 IS an MMORPG. You don’t need the ability to create a “zerg” to kill mobs in a persistent world, you need a virtual persistent 2D/3D world that let you meet and interact with many other people supported by a system that facilitate social interaction and roleplaying.

I bet one day the term will be even more extended of what it is today (that is even more complex of what wikipedia suggests). Mmorpg are not all about grinding, quests and killing respawning AI, mmorpg are (and in my opinion should be more) about people.

We can discuss if GW1 it was more closer to a sandbox or a themepark of what GW2 is, but not if it was or not an mmorpg.

By the way, back on topic, regarding the no grind philosophy I do fear the mastery system and the idea that you will be facing some challanges that you won’t be able to overcome not because you lack of skills, but because you lack of mastery points. What will happen if I have all the points required to travel to a specific location of the map, but a friend of mine, after stopping playing for few weeks will come back? Will we still be able to enjoy together the new content? Or will I have to wait untill he will have grinded all the points he needs to reaches me?
If he’ll need to grind, won’t this fracture the popolation? Isn’t the same as introducing a gear treadmill? Those are all the questions running through my mind.

Anyone who thinks 12 people in a zone at one time is an MMO and not a lobby game, I have no idea what to say to them. Anet said the game wasn’t an MMO. Most sites that report on gaming agree Guild Wars 1 isn’t an MMO. And most fans I’ve talked to over the years agree Guild Wars 1 wasn’t an MMO. This has been addressed exhaustively by a lot of people, but almost everyone that I’ve talked to over the years, including people on this forum, agree that Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a persistent world.

In fact, when the Guild Wars 2 FAQ first came out,. it asked the question is Guild Wars 2 an MMO and the answer was yes, Guild Wars 2 will have a persistent world. You can make up any definition you want, but more than any, the existence of a persistent world is what defines an MMO. That is to say, you can run into people in the open world randomly. Guild Wars 1 was a lobby game. You not agreeing doesn’t make me wrong, and this has been discussed so many times, I can’t even imagine anyone would contradict a company about what their own product is.

Now, since you say when Guild Wars 1 came out there were other free to play MMORPGs around perhaps you’d like to name one. I’ll wait here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_free_massively_multiplayer_online_games
Let’s now go back to the subject of this thread, the grind issue.

The side discussions where interesting and did have value for the thread. But now some of them are getting to much off-topic, adding little to no value.

[Edit: To not create another off-topic discussion I place the reaction to “Those updates were easier to program because there were less people in each zone.” here.

Allowing for more people in a zone is done in the engine, that has already been done (while improving it is never bad) and is not something you have to do again for every new content / map you design. You will have to think about the lay-out of new content to allow for many people, but that only makes it different, not harder]

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

No I said I did it multiple times to level my characters but also having the rewards as an extra thing / in the back of my might / earn them as well. Because I liked doing it. Is it then already grinding? I do not think so while it might come close. If I would have continue on to the point where I did not like it anymore but just did it for the baubles it would have been grinding but that was never the case.

I did not do it multiple times just to get the baubles to get the rewards.. you know like the people grinding for gold. To me that is a difference. I would not consider this grinding. In fact I think that is the general difference.

By your definition playing a game, doing quest and leveling at the same time would also be grinding because he you do something and leveling is an element of it. But it only because grinding when you do what you do for the sole purpose of the currency you earn (XP in that case). That does not mean the reward might not be one of the reasons or like an additional motivator for doing something (multiple times).

Would I have done SAB if I would not have gotten those rewards? Yes and likely multiple times. Did the rewards help to do it more times (increase playability), likely they gave the content an extra thrill / an extra motivator, by having the rewards to look forward to.

Would many people be doing champ-trains if they did not reward them anything? No. Do they even really like doing it or is it something they just put up with the earn the gold? For most they just put up with it. You see the difference.

Is it possible some people where purely grinding baubles in SAB? Sure.

But heey if you would want to consider both grinding (what would make everything a grind as you always earn some currency while playing and rewards are almost always part of the motivator) sure then by that definition I would want them to replace the boring grind by the better grind. But I do really think this is then really by your definition.

Same btw for farming but then your doing it for a direct item. I did for example farm MF for the back-pack and mini. I did farm it because I was repeating the dungeon for the mini also at a point where I did not like doing it anymore but just to get them knowing the dungeons would be removed at some point (never got them btw). Now I don’t mind considering it farming even if you do not dislike it but do it for the sole purpose of the reward. But it does not already become farming (or grinding) when your motivator is also just because you like it.

Sorry, I didn’t know doing something multiple times =/= grinding.

But in other news, since I like doing the same events MULTIPLE times in silverwastes, fighting the bosses durIng the breach MULTIPLE times, and the vinewrath and maze MULTIPLE times for fun because I do like the zone and events, then it isn’t a grind. The crests are just a bonus for me along with the bags I earn. If I use those bags and crests to make gold, then its all the more bonus to me.

Grind is subjective it seems.

Sure if you have fun doing it and the rewards are just an additional motivator then thats not a grind.

And don’t act as if it’s something new I am saying. If everything you do multiple times is a grind then any MP FPS is a grind because you do it multiple times, while the rewards are there (killing) and the currency is also there (points). But why does nobody call that a grind? Simply because people are not doing it just to get a number, being the best (the number) is a side thing, an additional motivator, they simply love shooting each other. Thats why nobody calls it a grind.

But yeah you act as if it’s silly what I say so I guess you always talk about how people are grinding FPS’s for kills. Oow and I guess you are grinding forum post here?

Where do we talk about grind? Mostly in RPG’s because thats the place where people tent to get into a grind.. doing something they do not really like but purely for the reward.

Well then, this thread is moot really as people just need to not think of what they’re doing as a grind and just have fun. Then anet told the truth, gw2 isn’t a grindy game.

If a lot of rewards are only available in a way that many if not most people consider a boring grind that is a problem and your game is grindy (for those elements).

A problem that should be talked about and really should be solved. That is what this topic is about. We already established like on page 2 or so that grind it’s also a personal thing. But it’s good to see you catching up.

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

No I said I did it multiple times to level my characters but also having the rewards as an extra thing / in the back of my might / earn them as well. Because I liked doing it. Is it then already grinding? I do not think so while it might come close. If I would have continue on to the point where I did not like it anymore but just did it for the baubles it would have been grinding but that was never the case.

I did not do it multiple times just to get the baubles to get the rewards.. you know like the people grinding for gold. To me that is a difference. I would not consider this grinding. In fact I think that is the general difference.

By your definition playing a game, doing quest and leveling at the same time would also be grinding because he you do something and leveling is an element of it. But it only because grinding when you do what you do for the sole purpose of the currency you earn (XP in that case). That does not mean the reward might not be one of the reasons or like an additional motivator for doing something (multiple times).

Would I have done SAB if I would not have gotten those rewards? Yes and likely multiple times. Did the rewards help to do it more times (increase playability), likely they gave the content an extra thrill / an extra motivator, by having the rewards to look forward to.

Would many people be doing champ-trains if they did not reward them anything? No. Do they even really like doing it or is it something they just put up with the earn the gold? For most they just put up with it. You see the difference.

Is it possible some people where purely grinding baubles in SAB? Sure.

But heey if you would want to consider both grinding (what would make everything a grind as you always earn some currency while playing and rewards are almost always part of the motivator) sure then by that definition I would want them to replace the boring grind by the better grind. But I do really think this is then really by your definition.

Same btw for farming but then your doing it for a direct item. I did for example farm MF for the back-pack and mini. I did farm it because I was repeating the dungeon for the mini also at a point where I did not like doing it anymore but just to get them knowing the dungeons would be removed at some point (never got them btw). Now I don’t mind considering it farming even if you do not dislike it but do it for the sole purpose of the reward. But it does not already become farming (or grinding) when your motivator is also just because you like it.

Sorry, I didn’t know doing something multiple times =/= grinding.

But in other news, since I like doing the same events MULTIPLE times in silverwastes, fighting the bosses durIng the breach MULTIPLE times, and the vinewrath and maze MULTIPLE times for fun because I do like the zone and events, then it isn’t a grind. The crests are just a bonus for me along with the bags I earn. If I use those bags and crests to make gold, then its all the more bonus to me.

Grind is subjective it seems.

Sure if you have fun doing it and the rewards are just an additional motivator then thats not a grind.

And don’t act as if it’s something new I am saying. If everything you do multiple times is a grind then any MP FPS is a grind because you do it multiple times, while the rewards are there (killing) and the currency is also there (points). But why does nobody call that a grind? Simply because people are not doing it just to get a number, being the best (the number) is a side thing, an additional motivator, they simply love shooting each other. Thats why nobody calls it a grind.

But yeah you act as if it’s silly what I say so I guess you always talk about how people are grinding FPS’s for kills. Oow and I guess you are grinding forum post here?

Where do we talk about grind? Mostly in RPG’s because thats the place where people tent to get into a grind.. doing something they do not really like but purely for the reward.

Somebody told me a comment I posted in the “No-grind philosophy” would be interesting for here. I explain how I would make the reward system and also how I would implement the RNG part. I figured I would copy the comment here so you guys can get some idea’s from it.

Bare in mind it was all in the context of the conversation going on in that thread.

—

There are two premises that are basically required to start with. That is that we have to take the cash-shop out of the picture here. It’s simple, every item put in there adds another item you can only grind gold for. The other would be addition of traditional quest. It could go without and I might have a little bias here as I think they should be added also outside of this discussion for other reasons but especially quest chains simply are very good ways to reward items and also give more meaning to those items.

I would use the 3 systems I talked about before. Direct reward for completing, rng and tokens you earn along the way.

Content, being it a dungeon, a boss, a JP or whatever could and in some cases should (a simple mob should not) reward a (or more) good item simply for completing it.

You can make this more interesting by adding multiple difficulty levels. Every level could add a different reward or like I said before an upgraded version. First you get a stone hammer skin, second difficulty you get the same hammer but the head is silver and with the hardest level it gets a nice glow over it. Preferably it’s always one item but you unlock an effect that you can also turn of independently if you want to. If somebody does not like the glow you do not want to punish him by giving the glow because he completed the highest level.

Secondly you also put some rng in there. All within limits, and that really depends on the content. Just killing a mob where there are plenty of you can give lower drop-rates then a dungeon you can only do once a day. It can also be multiple items but then usually different things. So not two different hammer skins but a mini or a skin and a dye or a mount (mount in GW2 being a glider skin, that could be a little dragon having you in it’s claws I guess).

This is a farm but again should be within limits. For a dungeon I would say 1 to 5 % but really this is something you need to see using statistics you collect in the game. It should be low enough to make it a rare drop but easy enough to prevent a boring grind.

Some items should be account-bound, other should not be, the once that are not should be rare enough to not flood the TP.

Then there is also a token system linked to that content. The items rewarding should not be among the most desirable. More of the type ‘nice to have’ or maybe just one part of them somebody might want. So people should have no real reason to farm them. I think most dungeon tokens in GW2 are a good example.
The amount of tokens you need to buy everything you can with them (like a full set of armor) is based on the drop-rate of the rng items. You calculate at what number of runs the person has a 50% drop chance in total for it to drop. Just before you reach this you should have earned all the required tokens.

All the items should be in style / connected to the content that rewards them.

Next to that there should be plenty of quest-chains that give nice rewards telling you not only about the NPC’s you meet but also a story about the items you eventually get. Recipe’s for crafts are also earned in these ways while the grind for the mats should be an fairly easy task. It’s getting the recipe’s that sends you all over the world and is the hard part.

Lastly some exceptions to the things above might be made. Like a few items with an extremely low drop rate or that do require an extremely high number of tokens (or other currency) are oke just to create some of those extremely rare items.
Still if tokens or mats are what you need don’t simply make it extremely hard to get them (like you need 250 but after an hour of farming mobs that there are only a few of, you still have zero) simply making the farm doable but the number high.
These items should really be a few exceptions but they might be in there simply to create a few of those ‘woow’ items.

Oow and how do you pay this without the cash-shop. By releasing more regular expansions once a year max 1,5 year.
The only items you ‘hand out for free’ would be something like hairstyles at a barber.

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

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So did I play it many times? Yes, did I simply grind the currency (baubles) no. Did the rewards where part of the fun / reason for playing? Yes. That’s why with the second SAB I only did it in one character. While by that time the game had also become too big to do really do on all characters on a daily basis. But I would then more likely have switched between them.

But all in all it never did feel like a grind or I did it really play it as a grind, so just trying to get the baubles in the fastest way as you said, it was always a combination of the fun of doing it in combination with earning the rewards.

I still don’t think the two are the same but yeah it was a step in the right direction.

But do you see? Right there, you just admitted to grinding, but saying it didn’t feel like a grind. BUT IT WAS! You played it over and over again, multiple characters, for the rewards, RNG rewards at the boss chests, and bauble rewards.

So basically Anet needs to take the grind they had in SAB v1 and go from there. You’ll be grinding, but not feel like you’re grinding. BUT STILL GRINDING!

Another thought that occured to me last night. Something that may help to make gold not feel all so important. What we need is a currency that you get all the time, for doing pretty much anything in the game, and increase its usefulness and value. Something like…oh I don’t know…KARMA.

If karma was use more than gold (of course this would cause inflation on the market though), there may be less whining. Do events you like, you earn karma, go spend it in another zone vendor for something you want. heck, to help stabilize gold a bit, combine karma and gold for items. 5g and X karma for an high value item or something. This currency is just sitting there in the game, doing nothing at the end (after spending for easy exotics at temples) and you earn it for basically doing any events you want in the game. So lets make it actually have value now at the end game.

No I said I did it multiple times to level my characters but also having the rewards as an extra thing / in the back of my might / earn them as well. Because I liked doing it. Is it then already grinding? I do not think so while it might come close. If I would have continue on to the point where I did not like it anymore but just did it for the baubles it would have been grinding but that was never the case.

I did not do it multiple times just to get the baubles to get the rewards.. you know like the people grinding for gold. To me that is a difference. I would not consider this grinding. In fact I think that is the general difference.

By your definition playing a game, doing quest and leveling at the same time would also be grinding because he you do something and leveling is an element of it. But it only because grinding when you do what you do for the sole purpose of the currency you earn (XP in that case). That does not mean the reward might not be one of the reasons or like an additional motivator for doing something (multiple times).

Would I have done SAB if I would not have gotten those rewards? Yes and likely multiple times. Did the rewards help to do it more times (increase playability), likely they gave the content an extra thrill / an extra motivator, by having the rewards to look forward to.

Would many people be doing champ-trains if they did not reward them anything? No. Do they even really like doing it or is it something they just put up with the earn the gold? For most they just put up with it. You see the difference.

Is it possible some people where purely grinding baubles in SAB? Sure.

But heey if you would want to consider both grinding (what would make everything a grind as you always earn some currency while playing and rewards are almost always part of the motivator) sure then by that definition I would want them to replace the boring grind by the better grind. But I do really think this is then really by your definition.

Same btw for farming but then your doing it for a direct item. I did for example farm MF for the back-pack and mini. I did farm it because I was repeating the dungeon for the mini also at a point where I did not like doing it anymore but just to get them knowing the dungeons would be removed at some point (never got them btw). Now I don’t mind considering it farming even if you do not dislike it but do it for the sole purpose of the reward. But it does not already become farming (or grinding) when your motivator is also just because you like it.

phys.7689:

Stark.1350:

Bernie.8674:

Stark.1350:

So because you have more important things in real life to attend to, you should feel you should be handed everything in game. If your guild mates are so high up there, why don’t they help you get mats? Nevermind the fact that the chest of loyalty at the end of the monthly login period gives you free ascended mats.

That’s not what I said. I have no problem with having to grind for this like prestige armor and high end achievements. I just want the game to be more like GW1 where your got the best armor in the game over the course of playing through your story. Also, the free ascended mats don’t mean jack if your crafting isn’t maxed. Furthermore, the biggest barrier to getting ascended armor isn’t even ascended mats. It’s usually silk, oddly enough, and there’s no way to get that through the loyalty chests. I’m sure my guild would pitch in for those mats if I asked them to, but I prefer to work up my own character without having to leech off my guild mates.

Having to leech off your guild mates? That’s what a guild is for. Helping each other out. I’ve helped seven different people get their legendary weapons, often by handing them precursors for nothing.

Silk drops like candy in this game. Go run any level 80 zone. Done.

you need 36×100×3 silk scraps, so thats 10800 peices of candy.

yeah gw2 has a problem with these large numbers, kind of odd, they made items in stacks of 250, but just saving this much silk would take up 43 slots.

oh yeah, thats just the silk requirement by the way. you also need 720 linen 720 wool 360 cotton annnd theres still more.

grind it up,

Yeah that is funny right. When it started that you would need a lot of slots I figured it was a bug / design mistake. You have stacks of 250 but of most items you need (ag of some you get) always more then 250. Something around stacks of 500 to 1000 would make more sense. So I decided to post that suggestion on the forum, however at that same time we got an update and we indeed get that ability.. as a cash-shop unlock. How kitten cheap.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

So w8 a sec .
When you create a post and say :

a) Cash Shop should be removed
b) They should implant a item with 1-5% chance to drop and that item can be improved x2 times , by playing ingame

Or Argue with how many Items+ Minis are ingame compared with the Gem store …

Does all of these make sense too ?

You see , i am not a nice guy and the ’’second’’ of the 3 types of players i hate is those that even them dont make a sense (the third is those that try to ’’force’’ their opinion on others constantly and limit their imagination/opinion)

Those items would not increase the grind. The items you could improve where direct rewards for completing different content (3 different difficulty levels) so that is not grinding.

The rng items are indeed a type of form but are the items you now grind gold for because they are now in the cash-shop. This would simply be a little more friendly farm and it’s not something that is forced upon anybody because for the items that are not account-bound you will still be able to use the gold grind there is now.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

naiasonod.9265:

Vayne.8563:

~

~

`

Your comment is a little hard to follow, you talk about the cash-shop and a way to keep players playing (as if a cash-shop does that??) and the ability to push out enough content to keep people busy but what I am saying pushing out an expansion once every year, year and a half. Most P2P MMO’s put out an expansion every 2 years with some patches in-between and that is enough to keep people busy (sure people leave after WoW’s patch, but more than enough also keep playing) so why would an expansion a year not be able to do so.

It’s all not that very different from what the market is already doing if it comes to the way to keep people playing or the content being pushed out.

The main difference form what the market is doing would be the payment model but that’s only different from the MMO market, in fact the B2P model is still the most used model in the complete gaming industry.

Lastly the other game I talked about was in a separate discussion talking about if a game would have to generate income on a monthly base or if it would also be possible on a yearly or longer base (especially if development cost where high). The fact that one of the examples of very expensive games was using more or less a similar system as the B2P I suggest was nothing more than a side note but not used as an example to show the model would work in an MMO (as far as destiny is an mmo). As far as I know that game has only one DLC released by now what would help to show they don’t need income on a monthly base (like the big bunch) what was the only point about the other game.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I’m not talking about the cash shop as a way of keeping players playing. I’m talking about the game existing at all. I’m talking about having enough money going forward to add any kind of content at all.

Pretty much from the moment your game comes out, you’re working on more content for it. It is your belief that that content could be made into an expansion and that would be enough to cover costs and make a profit. It’s my opinion that that’s not enough in this day and age. You have a belief it can happen and I have a belief it can’t. Not for an MMORPG. Not with the amount of competition out there.

If the game doesn’t exist there will be no content and no one playing. I’m not sure what’s hard to follow about that.

Money-wise the numbers we can use seem to show it will work, even better than the current model. So then the only question that remains is if they are able to create one expansion a year.

Where are you getting those numbers. You’re assuming that Anet can come out with an expansion as frequently as they used to. You’re assuming the number of people that will buy the expansion. There are a lot of assumptions in your numbers.

Simplest question is this. If this is such a great way to make more money, why aren’t people doing it? I say it’s because the risk factor is way higher than you think it is.

Well the numbers is all we have to go on, same for Anet btw. And the ‘if it’s so good why is nobody doing it.’ Question. Partly greed, partly the unknown. A few years ago nobody was doing F2P because it was the unknown and now everybody is using it. At the same time multiple companies are still trying to use the P2P model thinking they will get the money WoW does (greed) but it almost always ends in a failure. So just the fact that a companies are or are not doing something does not mean it’s a good or a bad idea.

That model is what eventually helped to create GW2.

It’s like the crisis example: Crytek figured they made the game better suited for consoles and the masses to have better sales. That worked, Crysis was a known game (made big by the PC community talking positive about it) so they sold many copies of Crysis 2 but because they did that the PC community now was very negative about it so the buzz around the game went away and Crysis 3 sold really bad. This all in an attempt to focus on the big money. Would they have made the changes between the PC-version and the console version big enough to also make the smaller group of PC-players happy, the game would simply have gotten better reviews and that would have helped with sales for Crysis 3 as well. But there logical (greedy) decision to focus on the bigger crowd eventually meant less sales on the longer term.

So sometimes you have to look a litter further then just at the numbers. I use the numbers where I can but fil it on with logical sense.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

No plz Devate plz stop it ….
You are really want us to have paid DLC like Destiny ?
So we are FORCED TO pay more real money ?

And just for what ?
Because you want more ingame grind and no the cash shop items , just because you are a collector ?

I have a idea :
Ask about about more grind (mini -skins) inside the game x10.000 times . And the gold you make at the end of it , you can hapilly transform gold>gems and by the 2-4 Black market items .

Or an better idea :
WoW is thinking about creating a FLEX system , where you csn trade gold>game time + they will have a Cash shop .
You should better go to MMO Champion and try to prevent WoW from failing

Just by hearing you , you are no different from the ppl that wanted the Achentant gear (vocal minority , which is 1 of the 3 type of ppl that i hate as a Dark Knight!) …

Edit: The one Dev that posted , it will be likly to have read already the posts and weighted ech repsonse .
Now if you personaly have an other idea about the 3-part Items you want ingame , you can write it …
Ignore Vayne and give more ideas , rather than ‘’i dont know what wrong , they should fix it althought ’’’

No, where did I say I want DLC like Destiny? I said an expansion once a year , 1,5 year. If people are not even prepared to buy that then why go for a B2P game in the first place?

And you are not forced to buy that but you do it to get a better game for it.

Yeah I have been asking for more grind, that’s clearly what I have been doing in this thread. If you want a healthy discussion at least say things that make a little sense.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

naiasonod.9265:

Vayne.8563:

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I agree. I think this sort of thing is the best compromise. The thing, even though it’s a step in the right direction, according to Devata, it’s too grindy for his/her tastes.

Well if you’re going to make new stuff not grindy and not cost gold and not cost cash, I’m not sure what the options are.

Her answer is, repeatedly, new expansions, new content. She claims it’ll work but I don’t see the evidence for this. I don’t think in this day and age that a developer could put out enough new content fast enough to make a game truly buy to play with no cash shop.

Devata brings up another game but the DLC content which they come out with goes against the ideal plan.

This is the limitation of believing only one ways is good. If it was the only good way everyone would be doing it. I believe the way Devata wants the game to be run would result in less players and I believe it would be a tremendous risk.

Your comment is a little hard to follow, you talk about the cash-shop and a way to keep players playing (as if a cash-shop does that??) and the ability to push out enough content to keep people busy but what I am saying pushing out an expansion once every year, year and a half. Most P2P MMO’s put out an expansion every 2 years with some patches in-between and that is enough to keep people busy (sure people leave after WoW’s patch, but more than enough also keep playing) so why would an expansion a year not be able to do so.

It’s all not that very different from what the market is already doing if it comes to the way to keep people playing or the content being pushed out.

The main difference form what the market is doing would be the payment model but that’s only different from the MMO market, in fact the B2P model is still the most used model in the complete gaming industry.

Lastly the other game I talked about was in a separate discussion talking about if a game would have to generate income on a monthly base or if it would also be possible on a yearly or longer base (especially if development cost where high). The fact that one of the examples of very expensive games was using more or less a similar system as the B2P I suggest was nothing more than a side note but not used as an example to show the model would work in an MMO (as far as destiny is an mmo). As far as I know that game has only one DLC released by now what would help to show they don’t need income on a monthly base (like the big bunch) what was the only point about the other game.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I’m not talking about the cash shop as a way of keeping players playing. I’m talking about the game existing at all. I’m talking about having enough money going forward to add any kind of content at all.

Pretty much from the moment your game comes out, you’re working on more content for it. It is your belief that that content could be made into an expansion and that would be enough to cover costs and make a profit. It’s my opinion that that’s not enough in this day and age. You have a belief it can happen and I have a belief it can’t. Not for an MMORPG. Not with the amount of competition out there.

If the game doesn’t exist there will be no content and no one playing. I’m not sure what’s hard to follow about that.

Money-wise the numbers we can use seem to show it will work, even better than the current model. So then the only question that remains is if they are able to create one expansion a year.

Vayne.8563:

~

“The problem is you keep comparing what Anet did with Guild Wars 1 with Guild Wars 2.” I compare it to a lot of game, for myself more than the games I give as examples here. Here I mainly refer to WoW and GW1 as that are games most people here know. Comparing it to TCOS for example would be useless as most of the people would have no idea what the heck I was talking about.

“At the time Guild Wars 1 was created there were no free to play MMOs out at all. The field of competition was very small.” Uuhm yeah, so an extra reason why the B2P model would be interesting. You see for F2P MMO market has a lot of competition. The B2P one isn’t. This is also a little strange about Anet, they really seem to think they have a unique system. When promoting the game always talking about how t has no sub… yeah so, most mmo’s don’t! That’s not some unique selling point. B2P would be.

“Prophecies released with just over 200 quests and 25 missions.” Yeah you only forget that the complete scale is also different. GW2 has a bigger market so also bigger income but also a bigger development team. So maybe that put everything back on even grounds?

“You say that they could support this game by doing what they did ten years ago. I don’t see how you can be certain of that. And I don’t see how you can expect companies to take a risk on your say so.” 100% sure I can’t but nor can you say it won’t. Again the numbers show it would generate the money so then the only question left (the one you seem to think is impossible) is if they would indeed be able to push out an expansion in a year.
If only all those companies who released P2P games where I before released told them it would not work, had listened, they would have likely ended much better than they did, eventually being forced to go F2P or even going bankrupt. That is never good for a game.

Maybe I can find my post in the Crysis 2 forums where I told them what they did to that game would likely result in bad Crysis 3 sales. http://www.dsogaming.com/news/disappointing-sales-crysis-3-pc-has-just-passed-100-000-sold-copies/

Sure I understand they don’t simply listen to a person on a forum, all I want to say with this is that ‘a person on the forum’ does not always has to be wrong or the persons being paid to make such decisions are not always right.

Addition: I just searched the Crysis forums, this was even before Crysis2 was released but was a discussion about leaked information that eventually turned out to be the case. It was about a few changes form Crysis 1 to Crysis 2 what would make the game more console like. I suggested if it would be true there would be no Crysis 4 because Crysis 3 would sell bad. It was a reaction to somebody who said it was good Crysis did change the game for the masses / consoles instead of having a version that would be good for just the 3000 freaks (PC-gamers)

“Did you read the post?
Not for the Masses? Yeah they invest Multimillion € to sell it to 3000 Freaks?
Hmm lets see what have we here.. Oow yeah Crysis 2 where did it came from, it came from Crysis 1. Developed for the PC only so not for the masses but for the so called freaks. Trust me, if this Crysis 2 PC version will be a console (masses) game the whole game will die while if the PC-version will not be a console port there will be a Crysis 4.”
25 FEB 2011

Turns out I was correct. Well sure, maybe at some point they might try to revive the genre with a Crysis 4 but as it’s stands it’s dead in the water because Crysis 3 sold pretty bad (what was the point there).

Can we now go back to the grind conversation instead of arguing if they could or could not push out an expansion once a year. I think they can, you think they can’t but that’s not the subject here is it? Also you seem to believe they have the people to make the right decisions and so what people on the forums say is not really interesting as we don’t know what we are talking about. But it’s not that simple as I just did show.

So people can just go on suggesting solutions for the grind problem and they might in fact be better then what the people at Anet think that is the best. Maybe, maybe not.

Serophous.9085:

Devata.6589:

phys.7689:

Serophous.9085:

DavidH.7380:

~

Then let’s actually discuss the heart of the discussion rather than go around in in a circle like we have.

So you run a dungeon once, and your are garunteed an item you wanted, why do you want to go back? Sure, can be fun the first five times, but it gets boring, specially if you are getting the same item over and over.

Make the dungeons harder or longer? Yeah, I think anet will tick off the demographic they are aiming for doing that.

Let’s face it, in this day of age, those of us who look at YouTube or the net for guides get content done fast, because in pve, its all scripted. Even if you change it up, there are only so many variables that it wouldn’t matter since it will still be memorized.

Anet only has so much man power to pump out content and test it privately, then release on a two week schedule, so adding content faster is really asking for a lot.

So how exactly do you implement something that retains players, and isn’t considered grind?

the game doesnt have a good balance of rewards. Other games juggle it a lot better. SAB (the first one)juggled it waaaay better.
A) you get content sensitive rewards/abilities from mastering the area (find this go here, etc)
B) you have a rare chance of sellable drop on success.
C) you can get a non sellable version by either mastering the levels (finding and getting all the hidden marbles as fast as possible) or at a slower pace with low mastery through repetition.

there are even better versions, but the main point is gw2 current system isnt working very well, loot/grind/rewarding feeling wise

Agreed about SAB version 1. It was still not optimal but much better then most of what we see in GW2. If only the SAB mini’s would also have been available in SAB (in a not time limited way).

With the first version I also leveled all my alts up to the max in SAB and had fun doing it, with the second version only one as it was not rewarding to do it with the others. And it’s safe to assume that this reward model was also part of the reason for it’s popularity.

uhh…SAB when it first came out can be compared to silverwastes now:
Oh hey, need baubles? Fastest way is to just GRIND level 1-1 over and over again so you can buy all your skins easily. Oh sure, take the rare chance for the sellable skin to drop, but now that becomes worthless to me, i’ll just sell it in hopes of someone who doesn’t want to do this process will buy with gold.

Sure, first playthrough you didn’t know where all the abilities are or the cost, but once you did, back to level 1-1, farm up a bunch again, and buy all easily. when the v2 came out, this was basically a must because of the lack of baubles in world 2. Face it, SAB was pure grind, but people had nostalgia or fun doing it, so it was hidden.

Comparing it to silverwastes….
Oh hey! I can run around and collect bandit crests to buy the armor pieces. Oh sure, there are chests, or bosses, or the maze that can drop additional pieces for me to shorten the grind, and yay for that! And yay for the final boss dropping chest, but boo its not for sale.

Its all the same. Replace crests with baubles, and you are running around basically collecting them by doing events instead of them just lying about.

I did it multiple times, like I said I leveled all my characters in there but I did not do it the way you suggest, only the first level. That would also not work for leveling up all my characters.

I played the whole game on every character once a day. Those bubbles I did earn along the way. The sellable drops where nice but indeed not that great, that why I said ‘if only the mini’s would be available in there’ while of course you then have the problem of temporary availability. Then again, that was the same now because they were now temporary cash-shop items.

So did I play it many times? Yes, did I simply grind the currency (baubles) no. Did the rewards where part of the fun / reason for playing? Yes. That’s why with the second SAB I only did it in one character. While by that time the game had also become too big to do really do on all characters on a daily basis. But I would then more likely have switched between them.

But all in all it never did feel like a grind or I did it really play it as a grind, so just trying to get the baubles in the fastest way as you said, it was always a combination of the fun of doing it in combination with earning the rewards.

I still don’t think the two are the same but yeah it was a step in the right direction.

aerial.7021:

naiasonod.9265:

I can only speak for myself on this one, but I entirely approve of the bandit crest vendor and using things like that as a deterministic way to get what we want. 1000 bandit crests + 1 gold isn’t at all hard to get, even from the most casual of perspectives I can reasonably think of.

As a skin yes, stat wise though its far from ideal its not even exotic.

Why would it be good for the one and bad for the other. It’s an interesting way to get / collect them or it isn’t.

Vayne.8563:

naiasonod.9265:

Vayne.8563:

Because if it getting the carapace armor worked your way, everyone would have it in two days or three days and then they’d be crying there’s nothing to do.

How do you solve that problem and your problem at the same time?

I can only speak for myself on this one, but I entirely approve of the bandit crest vendor and using things like that as a deterministic way to get what we want. 1000 bandit crests + 1 gold isn’t at all hard to get, even from the most casual of perspectives I can reasonably think of.

Only wanna spend maybe a half hour a day out in the Silverwastes? Get tired of doing events after maybe ten tops? You’ll still be able to get some of those pieces deterministically in a very reasonable timeframe.

Want every single piece for all three armor types? You’ve got a bit of farming to do.

Want all of those carapace pieces to be transmuted into luminescent pieces? You’ve got even more farming to do.

But if all you want is a carapace heavy chestpiece and legs to spice up your heavy armor options? Pff. You don’t even have to farm for those. Just go do the last chapters of the living story and bam, there you go.

I think the way they’ve handled carapace is excellent, and I dearly hope we see more balances between availability and things to ‘work for’, as much as I personally loath the phrase’s application in this context.

I agree. I think this sort of thing is the best compromise. The thing, even though it’s a step in the right direction, according to Devata, it’s too grindy for his/her tastes.

Well if you’re going to make new stuff not grindy and not cost gold and not cost cash, I’m not sure what the options are.

Her answer is, repeatedly, new expansions, new content. She claims it’ll work but I don’t see the evidence for this. I don’t think in this day and age that a developer could put out enough new content fast enough to make a game truly buy to play with no cash shop.

Devata brings up another game but the DLC content which they come out with goes against the ideal plan.

This is the limitation of believing only one ways is good. If it was the only good way everyone would be doing it. I believe the way Devata wants the game to be run would result in less players and I believe it would be a tremendous risk.

Your comment is a little hard to follow, you talk about the cash-shop and a way to keep players playing (as if a cash-shop does that??) and the ability to push out enough content to keep people busy but what I am saying pushing out an expansion once every year, year and a half. Most P2P MMO’s put out an expansion every 2 years with some patches in-between and that is enough to keep people busy (sure people leave after WoW’s patch, but more than enough also keep playing) so why would an expansion a year not be able to do so.

It’s all not that very different from what the market is already doing if it comes to the way to keep people playing or the content being pushed out.

The main difference form what the market is doing would be the payment model but that’s only different from the MMO market, in fact the B2P model is still the most used model in the complete gaming industry.

Lastly the other game I talked about was in a separate discussion talking about if a game would have to generate income on a monthly base or if it would also be possible on a yearly or longer base (especially if development cost where high). The fact that one of the examples of very expensive games was using more or less a similar system as the B2P I suggest was nothing more than a side note but not used as an example to show the model would work in an MMO (as far as destiny is an mmo). As far as I know that game has only one DLC released by now what would help to show they don’t need income on a monthly base (like the big bunch) what was the only point about the other game.

I think the model (reward model and payment model) would keep more people happy and playing but of course we cannot look into a parallel universe. While the reward model is similar to what WoW has (the one WoW at least uses for the cosmetic) and it seems to be working there.

What we know for sure is that the current approach GW2 had been using did result in an ongoing decline of income and so like also of players. Now they push out an expansion likely also in an attempt to get more people back and generate some new income. (You know those expansions that are the main focus in the model I talk about)