Guild Wars 2

I see some people here talk about grinding gold and if the problem is that they now get less. For many the problem is not getting less when grinding gold but that getting everything requires (grinding) gold.

I never grind gold and I don’t get 15 or 7 gold an hour. I get maybe 3 gold a week as I’m not grinding gold to grind gold. (sometimes more sometimes less)

Not that I mind people liking to grind gold but ask yourself are you one of the persons who likes to grind gold or you just do it because it’s needed and rather have other ways to work to what you want.

Draknar.5748:

It isn’t P2W if the end-game is completely subjective. When gear/stats are end-game, that’s objective. They are better stats, thus you are better off than those without that gear. When skins are end-game, who’s to say one skin is “better” than another.

When end-game is looks, diversity is also, and totally objectively we can say that having different looks adds to diversity. They also tent to be more ‘shiny’ with more effects and moving colours. That’s also objective. Isn’t it P2W if it’s the stuff you want to earn / win in the game? And stats the numbers are objective but if you are interested in it not. You might not care about the highest stats (just as not everybody thinks one skin looks better as the other skin) so from that perspective the value of stats is also subjective. Not that I see why it should have anything to do with if it’s subjective or not. It even has nothing to do with if it’s P2W or P2Kill or whatever.

The question is if the cash-shop focus influences the game (in a bad way). That’s obviously the case and that’s why it is bad. P2W or not.

Behellagh.1468:

Devata.6589:

He is completely right with that, it’s where I am complaining about here on the forums for over a year. It’s also why I went for GW2 in the first place, this being a B2P game not a F2P game so to not have this. Sadly the game turned cash-shop focused anyway.

It didn’t turn into cash shop focused, GW2 was always cash shop focus. It was added well before the game’s launch. Nobody really noticed because the exchange rate was low enough that those who wanted Gem Shop items could afford them. But now we’ve reached the point where that’s no longer possible. So a segment of the game’s player population who had funded all their Gem Shop purchases with in-game coin are now shocked to see that the Gem Shop really isn’t really free.

Nah it’s not that easy. The rate have gone up the last time while I am talking about this for over a year. Also if you where right I would be one of the persons who would be mad because I was not able to get my items any-more that I get get before with gold. However most of the things I did get from the cash-shop with gold where account-expansions and there is not much I still have on my wish list. If it comes to cosmetics as far as I remember all I got from it where a few mini packs and at this moment there are no mini packs in the cash-shop I am even interested in.

So while maybe that’s true for some people it’s not for all. The problem simply is that you can’t work towards items in the game itself. Partly that was true at release (mini’s) however back then the items in the cash-shop where still just a few, may where related to reoccurring events (so people expected them to come back a year later) and many people where still busy levelling there character. Hunting down special items was not yet what they where doing.

By now (and for some time now) most people have levelled, checked the many activities in the world and then what keeps people busy is the horizontal progression what in many cases is hunting down special items.

That comes down to doing achievements against time during the LS or grinding gold. In the beginning people are oke with that but that gets old very fast. Meanwhile Anet has been focusing more and more on the cash-shop, making changes to the world so it’s harder to farm directly for items and putting more of those items people would like to hunt down in the world into the cash-shop.

Also remember how at release they had this vision that no items should locked in a way that they became exclusive. One of the reasons they put the deluxe edition as option in the cash-shop (so the ingame items are still available for everybody) and they stopped giving out ingame T-shirt’s at GamesCom (2012) and did eventually give it out to communities (still meaning many people did not get it but that to the side).
They also came back on that with many items with the temporary available items making them exclusive after that period..

I think it’s still possible to get cash-shop the items with gold.. it’s harder and you can’t get them all but if you really want something it’s possible, so that’s not the problem why people complain. However people are just tired of grinding gold (whether it is to get anything in the game-world or to convert to gems) also more and more players now see how the gold-grind (and other thinks they dislike) are linked to the cash-shop.

Lastly, I did see you say this before in another thread, You seem to use it as an ‘excuse (not mend in a negative way) for why people are complaining as if it’s not a good reason’. But I fail to see how even if you would be truth (what I think you are not but it might be true for some of the people) that would make anything better.

If it makes the game less fun for people it’s a problem, if people are not willing to spend money on those things it’s something to take into consideration and maybe things should change?

nexxe.7081:

Devata.6589:

nexxe.7081:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Thus, the ratio of Gems to Gold and Gold to Gems is not indicative of player population.

I disagree. It’s very indicative of the population. Just look at that graph above. Prices were very low, because there were literally millions of players during, and after, launch. Then it continually declined, hence the megaservers (basically a merge).

If there was more people playing, they would definitely be buying gems and selling them for gold, but that’s not what’s happening.

Anyway, i don’t want to steer off-topic into a population argument. The fact is, that not enough players are buying gems, and/or, selling them for gold. This is because of a variety of reasons. The two biggest factors being, that the population dropped off, and the other, is that gold isn’t really needed for anything in game, except for Legendary items. Just look on the Trading Post, and you’ll see every item under the Top Valued Items section, is a Legendary.

Anet needs to make more valuable items worth gold, other than a Legendary item. This would give more incentive for people to convert gems to gold, and bring the ratio down to a more reasonable conversion.

Instead, they just pump out content exclusive to the Gem Store only, which is really limiting their customers, and driving the rest away. People would rather earn their items in-game, instead of with their wallet. I could understand if both Gem Store items, and items earned in-game, were balancing each other out, but that’s not what’s happening.

The items that are earned in-game, are single-piece back slots, or gauntlets, or minis, or tonics, or boosts, or recipes, etc. These things aren’t going to entice players to stick around for the long term. There needs to be full armor sets, like the dungeon sets, added to the game. Sets that don’t require gems. This is where GW2 falls short. A wasted opportunity.

“the other, is that gold isn’t really needed for anything in game, except for Legendary items.”
You must be playing another game. In GW2 everything is based on gold. Most special skins you can’t really work towards to directly (mainly because it are all very rare world drops) but are best obtainable with gold. Same for many mats. It’s of course not strange as that’s the way they like to indeed to sell more gems for gold.

Yes, but look at the ratio of those items when compared to Legendary items.
Top Legendary items: ~2000-3000g
Crafting Materials: ~100g or less
World Drops: Average ~10-30g

Crafting Materials are variable of course, due to Ascended items, but it still doesn’t negate the imbalance.

Also looking at your post before this I now figure you not so much mean gold is not important in the game.

Because it is, it’s only viable way to get most things in the game and that’s what turns everything into a boring gold-grind. If you are not willing to do that or just like to hunt down items directly then there is not much to do or much of it is boring.

However you mean gems are getting more important then gold because most interesting reward items are in the cash-shop. While not 100% accurate (you can’t buy a legendary or mats in the cash-shop) I know what you are getting at and the way I think you mean it you are correct. However when I talk about the game I.. well talk about the game and ‘playing’ it or at least being active in the game-world. Buying items / gems with cash is not an element of playing the game and would you want to get anything in the ‘game-way’ them again gold (also to then convert to gems to get the items you talk about) is the way (well and doing achievements against time during the LS).

Dr Ritter.1327:

Maybe one day that will read: “Don’t forget to pre-order Guild Wars 2’s upcoming expansion!” instead of “BUY GEMS”

If they would focus on that from that day it it would be a good day for GW2 indeed. But maybe it would come to late.

nexxe.7081:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Thus, the ratio of Gems to Gold and Gold to Gems is not indicative of player population.

I disagree. It’s very indicative of the population. Just look at that graph above. Prices were very low, because there were literally millions of players during, and after, launch. Then it continually declined, hence the megaservers (basically a merge).

If there was more people playing, they would definitely be buying gems and selling them for gold, but that’s not what’s happening.

Anyway, i don’t want to steer off-topic into a population argument. The fact is, that not enough players are buying gems, and/or, selling them for gold. This is because of a variety of reasons. The two biggest factors being, that the population dropped off, and the other, is that gold isn’t really needed for anything in game, except for Legendary items. Just look on the Trading Post, and you’ll see every item under the Top Valued Items section, is a Legendary.

Anet needs to make more valuable items worth gold, other than a Legendary item. This would give more incentive for people to convert gems to gold, and bring the ratio down to a more reasonable conversion.

Instead, they just pump out content exclusive to the Gem Store only, which is really limiting their customers, and driving the rest away. People would rather earn their items in-game, instead of with their wallet. I could understand if both Gem Store items, and items earned in-game, were balancing each other out, but that’s not what’s happening.

The items that are earned in-game, are single-piece back slots, or gauntlets, or minis, or tonics, or boosts, or recipes, etc. These things aren’t going to entice players to stick around for the long term. There needs to be full armor sets, like the dungeon sets, added to the game. Sets that don’t require gems. This is where GW2 falls short. A wasted opportunity.

“the other, is that gold isn’t really needed for anything in game, except for Legendary items.”
You must be playing another game. In GW2 everything is based on gold. Most special skins you can’t really work towards to directly (mainly because it are all very rare world drops) but are best obtainable with gold. Same for many mats. It’s of course not strange as that’s the way they like to indeed to sell more gems for gold.

Anomaly.7612:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

tigirius.9014:

Has anyone else seen the latest article by Anatoli Ingram over at Massively on his article written for Flameseeker Chronicles, where he basically tells everyone that all of the nerfs to open world loot is all in our imaginations. That’s right folks, the past two years never happened. The 9 months we waited on the infamous original loot bug, the constant dropoffs of loot when we login, the sudden no drops from anything even when we teleport to a new location, the T6 material drought, the double RNG on bags, the DR that hasn’t stopped a single bot from logging in since it’s been created, and most recently the Unidentifiable Objects that now drop from boss bags, boss chests, and those special daily rare boxes are all in our heads.

I’m not sure you read the same article as I did, as he mostly comments on how unrewarding most of the systems in the game are to nearly everyone. The article pretty much echoes what is found posted in the forum threads.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/06/03/flameseeker-chronicles-the-strange-case-of-guild-wars-2s-rewar/

“GW2 is marketed on having a cosmetic endgame, where stats only matter to a certain point and one of the ultimate goals is making your character look cool. If ArenaNet is putting over half of those cosmetic goals into the gem store, then the store is effectively working against the game.”

This has got to be my favorite quote of that article. He basically TL;DR’s the article with this short paragraph, and this is exactly why I don’t feel motivated to play much anymore.

He is completely right with that, it’s where I am complaining about here on the forums for over a year. It’s also why I went for GW2 in the first place, this being a B2P game not a F2P game so to not have this. Sadly the game turned cash-shop focused anyway.

BTW he is also saying that adding some new stuff to chest would already help but that invalid. It would keep the game a gold-grind because you can’t directly work towards those items if they are just open world drops. They should be in specific places and Anet will always try to put better looking items in the cash-shop (why would anybody else by them) making those in the world close to obsolete. Well or so they try. The hardest content or rares drops should be the best or most special looking. But that is a problem if you earn your money with a cash-shop.

SoLeciTO.3490:

-No monthly fee
-No way to 100% purchase items that increase stats and makes you win (P2W).
-Not a must to use gem system to have top items or exclusive items. (can change gold for gems)

Boys this is a business, and IMO a noble one . . .

Why you get mad if the company tries to profit? . . . they have REAL alternatives to never use your credit card.

Because they do it in a way that negatively effects the game. Most people have no problem paying for content btw. Release an expansion every year, get rid of the cash-shop focus and it’s results and many people will be happy.

ozmaniandevil.6805:

Ya nexxe, it’s way easier and less time consuming for me to work an hour and convert that to gems than to “work” in-game to earn gold to buy gems. It takes me 1 hour to earn enough to buy 2800 gems in real life. To use in-game gold for that would take me months of farming… oh… wait.. farming no longer allowed… make that a year or so of “normal” game-play.

Comparing a game to work.. Maybe that should be a sign that something is wrong with the game.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Devata.6589:

-snip- (kitten word limits)

You and I are on the same page in many regards actually. Doing a hard task and earning a special item for doing it. Like earning the Liadri mini for killing her, for example. I get that people enjoy playing that way, I’m one of them.

However, I also respect that Anet is a business and the cash shop is how they opted to structure their income model. They have to put something in there that entices people to spend money. Obviously they can’t just put 1 or 2 things in there, that’s not going to generate the income they are looking for. They have to offer a wide spread. Considering they stated before launch that they wouldn’t put any ‘pay to win’ (in its traditional sense) type things in the store, that sort of limits what they can put in there.

Well I guess I don’t respect this model.. I would if they would have been strait about that from the beginning just saying “we will use a cash-shop model but you will need to buy the game” but they put it on the market as a B2P game. I don’t expect them to do anything for free (willing to buy expansions) It just is a problem the way they do it now.

Also see this thread: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/buy-gold-with-gems-appearing-too-so-much/first#post4087876

Just to show how also other people feel how it negatively influences the game.

A payment-model becomes a problem if it negatively effects the game. Thats the question, not if “it’s only cosmetics”.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I was discussing revenue generated from the sales of the Chinese game, and the fact that it will eventually taper off.

Well I never calculated the Chinese income into my expansion based model so thats sort of irrelevant to what I am saying.
I just say they could generate a steady income with expansions.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

If they gave us all the stuff we normally got in an expansion (armor, weapons, dungeons, etc) for free, if you spent 10$ in the cash shop, it wouldn’t be any different. Spending 60$ on an expansion affects game play too, if gives you more stuf… It’s the same difference.

It would not be different in me giving them money (I mean I don’t buy gems but if I did) but it’s not like I don’t want to pay. In fact I do. It’s different in the way that it’s in the game, people play for the rewards directly. They don’t buy them

Yeah with an cash-shop model the company always has to answer the question “how do we get people to buy from the cash-shop” and also make game-decisions around that. With the expansion-based model they always have to ask them self the question “how do we get people to keep buying our expansions.”
I think the last one results in a better game then the first one.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I guess it’s just how you look at it. I have shop item goals and I never ‘grind gold’ during my play, but that’s just the difference between you and me.

That is what I am trying to say the whole time. It all depends on your preferred game-play. It might not be a problem for people with your preferred game-play but it is for people with my preferred game-play.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

From the general sounds of things (and not just from this thread of conversation), GW2 just is not your game Devata.

There are still elements I like (SAB, JP’s, some WvW now and then, guild-missions) but indeed after release the game went hostile on people with my preferred game-play. Why am I then still here? Well I do still think there is hope, I do still think the core is good, I have a big guild I like, there are those elements I still like and I did go for this game because of it’s B2P model especially to not have the stuff we are now talking about. So now I do complain about how they did go cash-shop focus. Maybe thinks can change but indeed if it comes to those elements I complain about here they are not for me anymore (and many with me, not just Devata) thats why I am complaining about them.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

So don’t “grind” the gold then. Just play the game and enjoy it.

That is what I am trying to tell you but you don’t get. I get much of my joy out of hunting those items down. Getting a special item for doing a hard task. Going into a dungeon to get the special recipe. That is where my joi comes from. Not just doing a dungeon over and over just for doing the dungeon over and over again. And there are many people who like to play that way. Many of the people who you hear complain about grind or nothing to do or boring and so on.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Set the cash shop item in the back of your mind. Its still working ‘from item to item’ as you put it, just in a different way. Yes, in a perfect world, we could earn everything in game, but that’s not how it works here.

It’s not about the item it’s about the fun of collecting it in the game. Yeah it’s not how it works here and thats why I complain about it. It’s why I went for a B2P game not a F2P game. To have that sort of stuff mainly in the world.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

So, per your example that RPer will never want to go to the zones where these mobs exist? They will never want to explore the new maps as part of their storylines, the growth of their characters?

It depends on the role-player but no not everybody will be interested in that. Trust me if people could tame there own pets (like close to how it works in the real world.. but faster) you would have people doing only that. An MMO RPG is more then just killing or getting max stats.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Although if you want to look at console games, those aren’t an expansion model. Each game is its own game, they don’t typically tie in together beyond using the same lore / story / universe.

No idea, they often have sequels. Develop a game, get money for it and 3 more years of development for the next game. So why would it not be possible for an MMO to earn enough money with a yearly expansion? The numbers indicate it should be enough.

[quote=4086146;LanfearShadowflame.3189:][quote=4086146;LanfearShadowflame.3189:][quote=4086146;LanfearShadowflame.3189:][quote=4086146;LanfearShadowflame.3189:][quote=4086146;LanfearShadowflame.3189:]

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

~

Well I was always taking about how it effects game-play and so the game itself (as the game is defined by it’s game-play), I am not able to work directly towards that item.

It might still be the same content but grinding it for gold I usually don’t consider fun while doing it for that specific item directly I do consider fun. It’s simply how prefer to play MMO’s. Working my way from item to item.

Buying it if it was be tradable would indeed be the same as it is now. But then again it would not be a route I would be likely to take simply because I don’t consider it fun.

“but when they start putting in harder content that you can’t do without those stats “ That is locking content behind the cash-shop (in an indirect way) and is more then just P2Kill (I don’t name it P2W because for me getting that cosmetic item from some content is also a form of winning so by that definition the game would already be P2W). Even then it would only effect people who in fact want to kill those mobs. While it then would likely effect me (I would want to kill it for the challenge and for the cosmetic item it would drop… if it did) there might be people completely not interested in that. Think for example on RP, some of them really only just want to RP with friends and killing a hard mob is not there interest. So also that would not effect everybody. Again it really depends on your preferred game-play if it effects you.

“I will point out that “most game companies” also charge a 15$ ” (you only mean MMO’s right?) Forgetting any releases within lets say two years as they still have to see if the sub-model works for them, there have not been any MMO’s (in the western market) released after WoW (almost 10 years) that where able to have success with the P2P model. Now there are 3 more trying it and I think most people can see how one of them is failing with it for sure. So I am not sure that “most MMO game companies do so”. I think ‘most’ are F2P. GW was supposed to be the one that did thinks different. In fact they still do much of there marketing as if they use some special unique business model but at this moment it’s just the same as the many F2P game out there. And I disagree that all those F2P games are P2Kill. Yeah some companies have all (while usually having a focus on one thing, WoW for example has a cash-shop but that is in no way comparable to GW2’s cash-shop) still that other companies do stuff bad does not mean it’s an excuse for this game.

It’s an argument I see a lot in political discussion. We should not complain because children in Africa are way worse of. So then I always wonder if, if those person has a child and it comes back with a low grade it’s just fine as long as there where people with a lower grade. I don’t think so.

The expansion based model should be able to generate enough money (likely more then the cash-shop model) and it would be effect the game-design / game-play / game less then a cash-shop model does. That’s why I prefer it.

I don’t know if the Chinese part is for me? Because I never said anything about using that money. But if it comes to the question if box-sales (and then I to also talk about expansions!) would be able to support it. Well the numbers seem to indicate that they could earn even more money with a pure expansion-based model. So if the cash-shop can support them then an expansion-based model should as well. (when releasing a expansion every year and managing to keep a high-quality game that people keep playing)

“It wouldn’t be any different than spending money on an expansion at that point. ” It would because the game-play is still effected by it. Everything is still a gold-grind to get people to buy gems. While if I would have paid for the expansion and there would not be no cash-shop focus then those items could be in the game letting me directly play for them. So yes, there would be a huge difference.

“but as long as it stays cosmetic and I have the option to work towards it via gold, then I have no issue with it ” You don’t, I do because I have fun in working directly towards those items and don’t find it fun to grind gold for it. Like I said, if it effects you completely depends on your preferred game-play.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Indeed. One of the Devs mentioned that it was 18 months in the making. Thus another reason why I’m now thinking Cantha was withheld so long. If they release an Asian themed expansion after China GW2 hit the market, you’ll have a whole population of new players who will think that Anet did it just for them. That “feel good” feeling can go a long way in terms of loyalty. Business-wise, it’s a good psychological tactic, as increased loyalty can lead to increased microtransactions.

While obviously the team would be involved in the process especially as launch time comes closer usually most of that sort of thinks like translating or making changes based on the region / culture are done by a separate team from the developer / company releasing it in that country.

What I did hear about why Ncsoft did not want a Cantha expansion (I am not one of the person dying to get a Cantha expansion, just for the record) was exactly because the Asian markets would react negatively on it because of cultural misconception. I could not give you a direct link with the source but I think you might find more information about that in the Cantha thread. ArenaNet (back then) would love to release a Cantha expansion but it was Ncsoft who was against it.

I don’t know how far this story is fact or just a internet story but I do know that in the Cantha thread an Anet person did say that if the player-base would keep asking it might convince people to create a Cantha expansion. So that would fit with the story.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Devata.6589:

~

If you look at it the other way, delaying expansions is a way to increase the lifespan of the product. While the current GW2 you’ve been playing might not appeal to you as it did 2 years ago, it’s still popular (judging from the sales figures from NCSoft). If you brought out highly popular new content, including new open world maps, of course they’ll see a bump in their sales. But couple that with a currently popular game, and the sales bumps wouldn’t be as large. Then you have the question of how long the new expansion content will last. Remember, most hard core players got to end game within the first month. We ate up GW2 for all it’s worth, and then everything since has been seeking out the small details we missed along the way (i.e. dungeon paths, dynamic events, etc).

Now take an expansion, and release it later when sales start to decline. You have an instant spike in sales, and add some years to the lifespan of the game. Now there’s more content to do, and people will flock back to play the game again. It’s like a brand new game was released, without having to develop a new game engine.

Releasing an expansion like this wouldn’t be so great for players, as we all want new content here and now. But it makes perfect business sense in terms of longevity and sales. With that in mind, I’m more forgiving that we haven’t had our Cantha fix yet.

Personally I do consider the argument “the ’ hard core players’ would burn through an expansion in a month” as reason why expansion would not work not valid. It’s not so much the hard-core people, but there is indeed a group of people that burns through the content to get highest level and highest stats gear and then say there is nothing to do. However you will also not keep them happy with the current LS content because they would burn through that in a few hours and it’s likely also not what they are looking for. What they are looking for is (endless) vertical progression, not horizontal. The LS is not vertical and you can’t make it vertical because it would make the game unplayable for anybody else who does not want that endless vertical progression.

All you can do for those people (part of them) is implementing hard, challenging repeatable content with weekly or monthly refreshing leader-boards and add some rewards to there account (something just for them, a metal they see on there account or something.). Don’t even think of having a leader board that does not refresh on a weekly or monthly (max half year) base as it will scare away the people who want to be first in that list but can’t get it anymore. Think of hard raid content you can do with a guild, maybe also giving some metals to the guild. Every year (expansion) you could add another two raid dungeons and new metals. (and maybe other rewards, but I don’t think you will make them happy with a mini, a metal or a title will give them more I think)

Doing it this way could keep many of those people happy but like I said there is always a group that gets to max level and max stats and is done with it. You won’t be able to please them anyway.

Horizontal progression on the other hand should be easy enough to keep you busy for a year (or more) when implemented in an expansion, exactly by doing the stuff I asked for but am missing in GW2. If you need to hunt down all those horizontal items dye-colors, mini’s skins, recipes for fun-crafts and so on in the world that can easily keep you busy for a year or more.

I do agree with the positive effect of expansions you describe, just not with the idea that you would first have to wait longer and basically let the game decline for it to have that effect. In fact by doing that you will have scared people away that will not come back so it would have a less positive effect imho. Releasing an expansion every year would give the same positive effect, you would not need the cash-shop focus and so you can keep the game at a high standard all the time earning your money with those expansions.

Alienating those people is also not good for the longevity of the game so I don’t really see why you think waiting longer in-between expansion (using the cash-shop in the meanwhile) would be better for the longevity. I think it’s exactly the other way around.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Devata.6589:

~~~ snip ~~~

Been reading your posts, and feel the need to add some thoughts.

NCSoft’s goals, as with most any other publicly traded company, is to make as much money as possible for their shareholders. Sure selling expansions would be enough to pay for future content. That’s basically want the Living Story was – an expansion’s worth of content given for free. But the reality of this is that you have a highly successful business plan that requires no changes. The microtransaction shop has been doing great with new Gem Store items related to LS content. Because GW2 is the #2 moneymaker for NCSoft, it makes sense to milk the cash cow for as much as possible if the current strategy is working.

As sales from the microtransaction store declines, that’s when you’ll see a shift in the strategy. New content or bringing back popular content is a way to increase player activity. Releasing new expansion content is an even better way. So right now, I’m theorizing that NCSoft is holding back on any expansion type releases until they need a boost to their sales numbers. Releasing the expansion content while sales are up wouldn’t make sense (from a business perspective). The hype would be drowned out by current popularity of the game. But if you wait a while before releasing the expansion, and time the release right, you get your name back in the news.

Yeah I understand the reasons they do it this way is to use it as a cash-cow. Mainly also because it’s less risky then the expansion-based model.

Still I do think an expansion every year would also get them back in the news every year.

Releasing a game later after letting it’s quality drop because of what they are doing now will also mean they do not get as many people back as if they would have kept the quality high.

However I don’t purely look from an investors point who likely prefers to make money as low-risk possible as fast as possible and is less interested in the long term because he simply switches to the next product.
I also look at it from my (consumer) perspective who wants a high quality product with a long life-spawn.

Still for a investor willing to have a little higher risk but with a bigger reward on the longer-term I do think the expansion-based model would also benefit them the most.

Behellagh.1468:

NewTrain.7549:

Behellagh.1468:

NewTrain.7549:

Behellagh.1468:

NewTrain.7549:

I’m sorry. Where in that rambling post did you prove that the expansion business model was unsuccessful? You know, the point I was making, which you completely ignored.

Never said the expansion business model was unsuccessful.

Then why on earth are you responding to a post where the ONLY point being made was that the expansion model was successful and people claiming otherwise are mistaken?

Because you cherry picked quotes from that article. The rest was a general post about the thread.

Cherry-picked? The quotes are not taken out of context in the least and fully support my point that the expansion model is successful.

This is the problem with forum white knights (whether or not you are one). They immediately jump on the defensive when there is any perceived criticism of their beloved game. In many cases, they wind up arguing against things ANet has directly stated to be true, such as in this case.

And you left out the paragraph that was between the two you used, the one I included that talked about the size and frequency of the expansion, why? Is it because it could be used to support the notion of Living Story content? “… or mini-expansions on a more frequent cycle …” could easily mean what was delivered to us as the Living Story. But lets not include that, it disagrees with your assertion that they promised paid expansions as a means to generate income.

NewTrain did not say they promised expansions (in fact nobody here did). NewTrain only said that the expansion-model is a successful model. So he only quotes what is relevant for that and that paragraph is simply not relevant for showing that the expansion-model can work and was successful. (as some people here said it was not).

What I said before is that they where vague, not saying the one or the other but if anything then it would point more towards expansions. Also with this article that is the case. They have option they are looking at (including smaller more regular expansions and the cash-shop) but if anything they are happy with the expansion-based model (how it worked for them) and want to use that as a basis for Gw2. Thats basically what this article says.

So also what I said before still stands. You are trying to proof that they never literally said they would release expansions to generate the money. (They of course did say they would use the B2P model what basically means the same) But you are right, they never said that they would use expansion to generate money. Nobody here is saying that they did. So you are arguing about something that nobody is disagreeing on.

Behellagh.1468:

NewTrain.7549:

I’m sorry. Where in that rambling post did you prove that the expansion business model was unsuccessful? You know, the point I was making, which you completely ignored.

Never said the expansion business model was unsuccessful. As long as expansions are relatively quick to produce. Since the game was originally planned in 2009, then pushed back to a nebulous 2010/2011 and finally came out in 2012, it seems obvious that open world content creation for a true MMO was something the devs underestimated using their instanced content creation as a guide.

The first two GW campaigns were a year a part and like clockwork. Each time sales spiked as it was snapped up. A game like WoW can sell expansions with a much longer delay between releases because they are subscriber based. The question is could an expansion business model work with a longer time between expansions than the first game. At double plus the staff size I would be inclined to say no. You would either have to run with a smaller staff or seriously limit the amount of new content for the expansion. Which begs the question if enough players would buy a smaller expansion when the first game’s campaigns were essentially full games on their own.

They would have to push out an expansion once a year (more or less) and that should be possible if thats what they focus on.

GW1’s first compain indeed was a year after release of the game however the second expansion was 6 months after that and the expansion (as far as I know development for GW2 had then also started) was 10 months after that.

Also looking at how much time they put into the LS then yeah I do think they should be able to push out a good expansion every year.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

~

I did not really understand your first paragraph. You mean it already effects you negatively or it would effect you positive or negative if those items where in the game and not in the cash-shop? You can still set your goal on getting it, also with gold if that is your preferred game-play. Now however you can’t play directly for it. Something that seems not to be a problem for you. Or you mean it does effect you already negatively because it’s only available temporary. Well wouldn’t it be great to also get rid of that then?

It both effects the game as a whole (items in the cash-shop make the game more of a gold-grind while stats in the cash-shop make the game more P2Kill) but if it effects your personal game-play depends on the person.

I do think that it would be enough to sustain, it as it’s how most game-companies work and very recently we got some numbers that also seem to indicate that a model based on expansion would be enough and in fact would earn more compared to what they earn now (after a second expansion when pushing out an expansion every year).
See: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/KongZhong-Details-about-GW2-China/page/2#post4077017

Yes the game-world has gotten bigger but so has the company and so has the number of total sales. So that should level each other out pretty well.

Of course it would mean they would not have the same amount of LS as they do now. Basically you replace most of the LS (development time) for Expansions.

As far as I know (but I don’t know for sure) the cash-shop in GW1 came at the time they did decide on making a GW2 and is was meant to be there to keep supporting when the expansions would stop. Still the problem I have with it thats it has a focus on it. If they had a cash-shop that would just sell some out-of game items (name-changers) maybe even something like town-cloth (if I am correct thats mainly what they did sell in GW1) then it would not be a big problem. The problem is that it has the focus on the cash-shop and you notice that in game-design as well as that most mini’s are in the cash-shop just as many of the new skins, dyes and so on. Most of that should in the world and if they would sell a few things to the side in the cash-shop without effect the game-world itself I would be fine with it.

Aither.2859:

thaooo.5320:

Proved no such point, as I’m playing the game less than a casual, as I’ve proven on many threads. But you’re one of those people who mistakes posting and offering free advice to a failing company as ‘still playing’, so I can’t change your mind here.

The reason I said ‘formal education’ is because we don’t know about any self taught education, since the person of topic did not mention anything about it, I’d say it is non existent. Usually when a person rights a CV of themself, they include things like that to look their best. But you can argue against this all you like, to no effect.

Servers and networks cost next to nothing, so sorry but that’s a moot point.

I originally came in here to support the OP’s opinion, but after reading your posts I have to scream out the sheer ignorance of what you have described in your statements.

First of all you blame “capitalism” for the reason of GW2’s downfall. This is not the case as if the developers were true capitalists they would actually listen to the consumers in expanding to make GW2 a better experience, not continue the road with this linear nonsensical LS garbage.

While it may be true that some people like LS, it is quite apparent that the community wants a permanent expansion much like delving back into the areas of Cantha, or Elona. Anet had some very good material with GW such as; the ever expanding skills for each class, new armor, weapons, and dungeons with each new expansion. While it wasn’t perfect, the lore of the original GW was so much more interesting than the LS we have now through GW2. Learning of the human gods and fighting the likes of Shiro, and the destroyers was so much more intriguing and mystical than Scarlett ever could be.

To put it all in perspective capitalism is not the “evil” you believe it is, otherwise Anet wouldn’t have been able to develop like what GW is, and GW2 once was. In fact if capitalism didn’t exist you wouldn’t be playing the games those “passionate” developers as you put it had created because there would be no such things as a PC, video game console, or even tablet or Iphone. Capitalism is about profit and loss, I loved GW2 which is why I put hundreds of dollars into the gem store, but after going so long with no new areas, dungeons, or armor produced from the developer I stopped playing and stopped giving Anet my hard earned money until they come out with something new that I will enjoy. If Anet doesn’t comply than that will be one less customer for them as I will move onto the next best thing such as Everquest Next where the developers are listening to their consumers, or Black Desert online which looks absolutely amazing.

Well you then also made a mistake being not capitalistic (is that even a correct word) about it.
You wanted new content like maps and dungeons and so you put hundreds of dollars into the cash-shop. But the cash-shop does not give you any of that. So you helped to push them into the wrong direction. Then leaving leaving us with the mess. You see if you wanted that sort of stuff you should not have put money into the cash-shop but you should have both the content by buying an expansion (CE edition). Obviously that never came but if not enough people would have put money into the cash-shop pushing them towards more cash-shop focus we might have gotten an expansion.

I did buy the CE edition of the hoping to be able to buy the CE edition of an expansion about a year later meanwhile making sure to not buy gems as I do not want to support that.

lordkrall.7241:

Devata.6589:

Lordkrall do me one favour. Don’t ask or say I refuse to explain something I already explained to you (multiple times) before. You can simply read it back.

I said the money comes from the sale of the game itself, that pays for the first expansion and then the money for the second expansion comes from the first expansion.

The LS story cost money as well you know.

“The fact remains that it is rather unlikely that the box-sales alone would be enough to give salaries to 300+ employees during the whole time it takes to create, market and sell an expansion. ”
Lol, Well have a look at the link I gave as answer to what I said you would be asking next.. as that’s where your answer is to this question.

Summarised what is being said there: When looking at the numbers an expansion-based model could generate more money then the cash-shop. It’s also how many games finance the sequels.

“You are removing a continuous source of income (gem-store) with a one-time source of income with rather long time in-between. ”
No I replace the gem-store income (what at this moment is about 21% every Q of what the game earned at release) with an expansions-based model that generates money once a year (when releasing every year). What, looking at the numbers, would generate about 100% of the original sales in a years time. (when released today it would likely not also generate the 100% as to many people have already been alienated from the game).

Anyway you asked what I predicted you would ask and gave the link to the answer. If you would have read it you would have gotten your answer (again). Yes the numbers suggest it’s enough, in fact they suggest it might be more. (when releasing an expansion every year)

Yes, you claim that the money games for the game-sales. But do you really think that they did get enough money on game-sales alone in order to pay salaries for 300+ employees + all other required fees, such as server-clusters, working-stations, consults and marketing among other things, for OVER A YEAR without any additional income?

On an average in the gaming industry a single employee (as of last year) $84,337 per year.
If we assume that everyone (which is not true, there are people earning more and people earning less) earns exactly that and assume that they currently have 350 employees that would mean about 29,5 MILLION dollars per year. For salaries alone.

Now lets say that an expansion takes 2 years to complete and release (because releasing yearly real expansions is rather unlikely, most MMOs doesn’t get their first expansions until several years in) that would mean about 60 million dollars spent on only salaries.
Do you really think they would be able to survive in the long-term with costs like that (and that is not including costs outside of salaries) based on only releasing an expansion now and then?

An expansion would most likely not cost the same as the original game, and people have (as you seem keep to point out quite often) left the game, and as such it is extremely unlikely that every expansion would generate 100% of the original income from the original game.

Isn’t this a copy paste of your own post before?
Anyway, yeah an expansion a year should be possible and yes that should be able to finance the game (I won’t go into specific numbers because we don’t have the exact numbers) as that is how most (non-mmo) games make there money. Sure cost for an MMO are higher but they should be able to push out an expansion every year while those non-mmo games it can take longer (like 3 years) before they have a sequel.

I did also say this before. Asking me the same thing as if I never countered that before does not make it right you know. I really wonder why you keep doing that? Repeating / asking the same as if I did not already answered that. Or are you just trolling? Or do you hope I will not react at some point so you can feel victorious? If that is what makes you happy I will not react anymore on something you already said or asked before (and I answered on before).

And no at this point an expansion would likely not create the 100% any-more. That is what I said. However it might help to get people back or stop a possible decrease of people. If it improves the game enough the expansion after that might raise the number of sales more. Less people just as well also means less cash-shop sales. No difference there.

Anyway it’s cool of you to agree that enough people to leave already because of the current state of the game that they would likely not be able to generate the 100% they did with GW1. What would proof the expansions-based model is able to keep more people happy.

lordkrall.7241:

Devata.6589:

I refuse to suggest how they would get the money? Pretty sure you said that already multiple times to me and I answering it multiple times.

Like here https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/KongZhong-Details-about-GW2-China/page/2#post4076878

However I will state it more easy here. (as you had to get the information form multiple places on that comment)

You earn money with the game and invest part of that into the expansion (like most companies invest part of there income) then that expansion earns money and you can invest part of that into the next expansion and so on and so on.

I don’t remove most of there income (what I have also said multiple times to you). I just replace it with another source of income. Expansions in stead of cash-shop.

Here is the answer to the question you might be asking next:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/KongZhong-Details-about-GW2-China/page/2#post4077017
If you keep following the same trend.

But you time and time again completely ignore the fact that making said expansions will COST MONEY, money that you claim will come WITH said expansion. So where would they get the money to make said expansion in the first place?

The fact remains that it is rather unlikely that the box-sales alone would be enough to give salaries to 300+ employees during the whole time it takes to create, market and sell an expansion.

You are removing a continuous source of income (gem-store) with a one-time source of income with rather long time in-between. Sure they would get a big boost of income with the release of expansions. But would that income be enough to keep the game and company going between those expansions?

Lordkrall do me one favour. Don’t ask or say I refuse to explain something I already explained to you (multiple times) before. You can simply read it back.

I said the money comes from the sale of the game itself, that pays for the first expansion and then the money for the second expansion comes from the first expansion.

The LS story cost money as well you know.

“The fact remains that it is rather unlikely that the box-sales alone would be enough to give salaries to 300+ employees during the whole time it takes to create, market and sell an expansion. ”
Lol, Well have a look at the link I gave as answer to what I said you would be asking next.. as that’s where your answer is to this question.

Summarised what is being said there: When looking at the numbers an expansion-based model could generate more money then the cash-shop. It’s also how many games finance the sequels.

“You are removing a continuous source of income (gem-store) with a one-time source of income with rather long time in-between. ”
No I replace the gem-store income (what at this moment is about 21% every Q of what the game earned at release) with an expansions-based model that generates money once a year (when releasing every year). What, looking at the numbers, would generate about 100% of the original sales in a years time. (when released today it would likely not also generate the 100% as to many people have already been alienated from the game).

Anyway you asked what I predicted you would ask and gave the link to the answer. If you would have read it you would have gotten your answer (again). Yes the numbers suggest it’s enough, in fact they suggest it might be more. (when releasing an expansion every year)

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

Nope they did not. Your attempt at trying to find a statement where they do (and failing in it) only seems to proof that more.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. They have said, on a number of occasions, things that can be taken in a number of different ways. You choose to interpret them in a manner that supports your opinions and position. This is perfectly understandable.

I guess this statement is an improvement as before you where still trying to proof that they stated to go for a cash-shop focus before. Or well something like that.

I did say all the time that they where vague only that if anything (That’s not saying it literally what they said!) then it would point more towards expansion-based focus with something as a cash-shop to the side. Simply because they said the the game would be B2P (that part was known pretty early), and because what they did with GW1, because a statement as “there will be expansions for sure”. Yes it was also pretty obvious they would have a cash-shop but to what extent has always been vague, just as how they would support the game as total. So I don’t really interpret them in any other way as vague as that’s what they where. Except for using the B2P model. And a true B2P model of course is one with expansions but not to extent the discussion to much I will leave that to the side.

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

So if I talk about “people” it must be you?

If you are quoting me, and only me, not a single other person, when making the statement I think that it is reasonable to take the statement as refering to me. If it was meant as a general commentary about people on the forums in general there would have been no need to quote me, and only me, specifically.

No it means I am talking to you not (only) about you. If you look back in my first paragraph after I quote you I talk about ‘people’ and then in the second paragraph I refer to ‘you’. So I do split the two pretty clearly. Anyway, no I was not talking to you.

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

~

And yet the player who does like minis can get them, through gameplay, without them being on the drop table. No matter what drops the player who likes minis gets something he can use or sell. The reverse is not true for a player who dislikes minis.

Also keep in mind that my point was that the individual who does not like minis is getting a drop that he dislikes and has zero use for. If the mini comes up you know that you hit that very tiny ultra-rare drop chance…and got something worthless to you. Kind of a bummer IMO. Again, make it tradable (or give an alternate reward choice: Mini or X) and I see no concern whatsoever.

I personally don’t care much for the emphasis on gold farming to the exclusion of hunting specific rewards from specific content, but I know others that do like being able to get whatever they want by playing whatever they want.

To clarify, I am not arguing for the removal of minis and the like from drop tables. I think that having interesting things to hunt in game adds to the game. I was however responding to a comment to the general effect of how few people would find having them drop in game to be a negative thing. I pointed out how it could be so for some people.

“And yet the player who does like minis can get them – The reverse is not true for a player who dislikes minis.” Sure it is, why wouldn’kitten Also you do understand that one of my complains about the cash-shop focus is turning everything into a gold-grind. You say you can get them gameplay but you can’t get them directly with game-play but by grinding gold (with game-play). So that does not make it any better it’s in fact the problem I am talking about. (one of them)

“you know that you hit that very tiny ultra-rare drop chance…and got something worthless to you.” The ultra-rare drop chance for that mini yeah, not for that other item you would have preferred. And yes if it’s up to me most items (so also most mini’s) should be tradable. We agree on that part.

“I know others that do like being able to get whatever they want by playing whatever they want.”
As long as items are tradable playing directly for them is possible but grinding gold for them is as well as they will end up on the TP.

“I think that having interesting things to hunt in game adds to the game.”

“I was however responding to a comment to the general effect of how few people would find having them drop in game to be a negative thing. "
Yeah that was clear but you have an extreme example as to “if case x and if exception and if case y” then it might be negative for a group of people. To me the benefit of having interesting things to hunt in game in general far out-waits this very exceptional possibility in what in some cases it can be negative for some people.

Lucifers Heaven.2167:

Nerelith.7360:

tolunart.2095:

What about the 97% or so of players who never even read the forums, let alone start posting here?

Oh yes, I agree. Only about 3 % of players bother posting in the forums. about 97 % don’t.

Those that do not bother posting and are dissatisfied because they notice how the game is steering the average player to the gem store for gold… and nerfing any decent repeatable, consistent way to earn money, which means any of those Limited time only items on the cash shop will have to be bought with Gold Bought with gems, will skip steps 2 through whatever… and just leave.

I completely and utterly disagree with this.
I play this game with quite a few friends. About 15% of us read the forums. I probably post the most out of us, the others mostly just read.
So the other 85%, just don’t bother with the forums. Not because of anything like what you’ve said. They don’t bother with the forums because to them this is just a game that they enjoy playing. It’s not something they feel they need to spend time on other than actually playing the game. They have fun in game, that is the only side of this there is to them.
They’ll get excited about coming updates and LS. But they find out about this through Faceboob announcements from GW2, map chat, or obvious next steps found in the game (“LA is under attack, we’re evacuating and protecting people, this is awesome, I’m looking forward to when we go on the offensive!”), and I fill them in on the extra details and tidbits mentioned on the forums. Heck most of them don’t even read the patch notes, I fill most of them in on that info too.

I’d wager THIS is what most players are like. Probably the vast majority.
GW2 is a game, and to most of it’s players it’s that first and foremost, and to many it’s only that.

(Edit: Because I forgot to address my disagreement with the other stuff the quotee said)
Oh and I also entirely disagree with your assumptions about wealth. Only one or two of us have ever converted gems to gold, way more have done it the other way around. We play the game, have fun, get what we can afford. When people want more money we do some dungeon runs. Most of us who have spent money on the game have been for new character slots and things (in my case I did it with real money in part because I figured GW2 had entertained me enough to well and truly deserve it).
Quite a few of us have been playing since launch (several of us in the beta). And we have had more friends joining and staying along the way. Sure some people take a break for a bit, but in many cases that’s because something else is taking up their time not because GW2 drove them away. And that’s fine. It’s part of what makes this subscriptionless thing great, you’re free to do this. Only a couple of people have left and not come back.

All he is saying is that if people are not on the forums it don’t mean they have no problems with the game, and if they leave they also just leave but without posting on the forum. The “The forum are not all the players” seems to be used as an argument like if all other people have no complains and that of course is not true.

dodgycookies.4562:

Gold grinding is a skill in the way that an accountant can be skilled and rewarded for that skill. Or else everyone would have loads of in game gold super easy. While I find grinding for gold boring and just do not do it, some players do find enjoyment in TP trading or gold grinding and have gotten good at it. I respect their playstyle, even though it could make a few things more expensive for me but not overly so. I am pretty poor in game and sometimes(recently for hugely expensive strength runes. Boo for non craftable/non npc buyable runes) have to rely on a few certain guildes who are good at that kind of thing for a bit of assistance.

Though most things imo in game are not that big of a gold grind other than legendaries which is only a gold grind because the time investment required is unrealistic. For most things in the gem store it comes down to if you want an item and are not willing to pay with real money it becomes a gold grind. Some see that as a negative, while I see it as anet giving players a choice in not spending real money if they have excess gold rather than requiring payment. Plus the gem to gold conversion allows players like me to convert cash to gold to save time while avoiding those shady third party sites.

The cash shop is not perfect nor is the pricing (upgrade extractors!). One thing i disagree strongly with in the cash shop is the gambling system for dyes and weapon skins and don’t partake in part of that. BL chests and dye kits should go away and let us buy the skins and dyes we want directly with gems rather than rely on rng.

As to the health of the game, i leave that to the devs with hard data to look at.

I don’t mind people who like to grind but thats also an option without the way it works now. If items drops in game and you can put them on the TP people still can grind gold and buy the items.

I was not only talking about the items in the cash-shop but yes they are part of it. I think they should be available in-game.

So yes now they have the option to grind gold for them or buy them. The way I preferred it (expansion – based model with no ore a more limited cash-shop) they would have the option to grind gold for them or play directly for them. They also have the option to buy an expansion that throws in many new items they can then get by playing for or grind gold for.

lordkrall.7241:

Devata.6589:

I would want them to remove most of the cash-shop increasing the choice and experience for everybody in the game itself. It is however nice of you to agree that apparently the cash-shop does take part of that out of the game by stating you get can it by buying items from the cash-shop.

And how would you finance your beloved expansion if you remove most of their income?
You keep shouting about how much the gem-store sucks and how they should remove it and add expansions instead, but you refuse to actually suggest how they would get money to develop said expansion without the money gained from the gem-store.

I refuse to suggest how they would get the money? Pretty sure you said that already multiple times to me and I answering it multiple times.

Like here https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/KongZhong-Details-about-GW2-China/page/2#post4076878

However I will state it more easy here. (as you had to get the information form multiple places on that comment)

You earn money with the game and invest part of that into the expansion (like most companies invest part of there income) then that expansion earns money and you can invest part of that into the next expansion and so on and so on.

I don’t remove most of there income (what I have also said multiple times to you). I just replace it with another source of income. Expansions in stead of cash-shop.

Here is the answer to the question you might be asking next:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/KongZhong-Details-about-GW2-China/page/2#post4077017
If you keep following the same trend.

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

~ In fact looking with all the information you had it would make sense that expansions would be the ‘predominant source for income’ as that is what made ArenaNet big with GW1.

Except that they have made statements that implied as much.

By the way that quote is an example of what you say you do not like. You say, “In fact,” when the truth is, “in your opinion.”

Nope they did not. Your attempt at trying to find a statement where they do (and failing in it) only seems to proof that more.

I state that it’s a fact that ‘If you look at the information it would make sense’. Meaning it’s the best you can get from the available information.

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

I am happy to see people here trying to proof that mini’s in the cash-shop are in fact better for the game-play. Because it shows they are not trying to be objective about it but trying to make up excuses (what was not needed if it would be better for the game-play in any way). One person who starts about how money can make new game-play.. well that does not say anything about how the mini’s in the cash-shop are better for that part of the game-play itself.

Another example of that thing you do not like. I made no such effort to prove anything of the sort.

So if I talk about “people” it must be you?

The part about money makes new game-play and so it is good was not referring to you. However part of what I said there was referring to your statement here.
“https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/KongZhong-Details-about-GW2-China/first#post4075258”
(people is plural so if I say people it means I am not just talking about you)

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

~What make no sense whatsoever. So those people who like those other thinks could still get there drop and sell the mini’s got that drop. While in fact now there are people who do not get that sort of drops they like because they are not in the game in the cash-shop.

Another one of those things you say you do not like. I did not say what you claim. This may be a language issue so my apologies if such is the case but, “people might not get drops they do not care about,” means the opposite of what you claim due to the double negative. Drop either, “not,” and your quote captures the essence of my statement.

If a mini-pet takes up a slot on a drop chart then generating that numerical result on the drop chart means getting the mini-instead of something else.

The sentence was a little strange indeed but I did mean what you said. Depending on the way the loot-system works you might be right and you might be wrong. It’s not necessarily true that it would take up the slot. However if it would true it would still be a very small change it would effect a person because in that case it would only effect him if he would have gotten both the rare drops but the mini being first in line (50 / 50 change of that without knowing the code) it would take up the slot of the item the person would have wanted to drop.

So you do take that into consideration (poor guy there is a slim change he might not get the drop he wants because he got the mini instead) meanwhile totally ignoring the fact that the way it is the person who would want the mini (or other item) to drops has now 0% change of getting it to drop and will always end up with that other item… the one he might not be interested in.

So yes there might be a group of people that would have a slim change of not getting the drop they wanted. Versus the other group that now in fact for sure does not get it. Sorry but that slim change for that group (because it’s only true for those wanting that other item) compared to the fact that now another group is for sure not getting it, then that last totally outweighs that slim change that one group might in some circumstances not get the item they want. And thats even only true if the loot-system works that way. Else it it totally invalid.

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

And yes at least most items that drop should be tradable. Including mini’s. Maybe you want have a select few that are account-bound but by far most drops should be tradable.

Personally I do not care for account or soul bound items. I prefer to have the option to trade anything that I get as a drop that I might not desire to someone who does desire it but couldn’t get it as a drop for whatever reason. But, I understand others’ preferences do not match my own and think that a middle ground of some sort is reasonable.

Like I said I mostly agree with you on this. I do understand that some items are account-bound (so not tradable) but for sure most should be.

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

From there statement you could not say that the cash-shop would have been the focus or it would be the predominant source.

10/11/2010

“We’re going to try to do some alternative business models, like microtransactions, where we sell totally optional clothing items and things, you know, we’ll go into more details on microtransactions down the road. We’ll try to sell some stuff that can help us out and are cool things that players might want, but they don’t need to play the game. own the road. We’ll try to sell some stuff that can help us out and are cool things that players might want, but they don’t need to play the game…

…You know whatever additional content we release down the road, be it by expansions or content packs, we don’t really know how that’s going to work yet,"

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/feature/4603/page/1

You mean where, almost two years prior to launch, Anet stated that they were going to try microtransactions as a business model ? Where they said that they didn’t even know how content packs would work but that they knew that they were going to try the microtransaction business model ? They may not have used the word, “predominant,” but they did say, “microtransaction business model,” not, "microtransactions as a filler to augment expansion sales.

And…. (note that he says buy it, “once,” not, “buy it once and then buy the expansions in order to play the whole game.”

09/2011

“Games like Guild Wars 2where you buy it once and play it for free. Inevitably, it is going to be the customers that decide all that. The developers are just literally doing what the customers are willing to pay for. "

http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/09/exclusive-interview-arenanets-colin-johanson/

Even so, they have said a lot of different, sometimes contradicting, things at different times so I totally understand if a given player got one impression from one interview while other players developed a different opinion based on a different company statement.

So where did they exactly say they would use the cash-shop or micro-transaction business model?
I would say this statement is so vague you can’t get any information out of it but if anything it would point towards the micro-transaction as being just one of the many thinks they try. Far from being the way they would generate there income.

I mean literally the sentence you quoted yourself “We’re going to try to do some alternative business models, like microtransactions,” This to you sounds like. “yeah micro-transactions are the way we are going make the money? To me it sounds like they are tossing around with some ways to earn some (additional?) money. The only thing that is for sure is that the game will be B2P. So you got B2P for sure and next to that they are looking into some other models as well.

It’s not contradicting to what they said in the interview I liked before. It’s similar maybe more vague (not strange a year ahead) but pretty similar. However it does not say they will use micro-transactions to earn there money. Far from it.

About the buy it once.. yeah you buy the game once? And then you can decide.. again I don’t see how this points to the one or the other. I Buy the game and then decide if I want to later by an expansion. How does that not fit? I do not expect people to buy the game multiple times. Colin is talking about sub-models where people pay a subscription every month vs GW2 where you buy the game once and then it’s free. That does not mean expansions are free or there won’t be expansions or the cash-shop will then generate the money.

dodgycookies.4562:

I am fine with expansions. As long as they keep the cash shop in the game for choice and for those who are willing to further spend for a better experience.

The skill part i was referring to can be 2 parts.
1)There are plenty of things in game that are skill locked for many “unskilled” players such as liadri rewards, spvp rewards, or any of the harder dungeon rewards. In those cases people do need to up their skill if such things are currently unobtainable for them.

2) Skill in playing the TP for gold which some people is fun and rewarding apparently.

I, like everyone else, bought a game to play for entertainment. I understand people like playing for rewards, who doesn’t. But again your rewards are limited by your skill to accomplish in game tasks or earn in game gold, or your resources outside the game in order to turn cash into gems or gold.

I do not mind not being able to obtain rewards, as some of them are more time i am willing to commit or are more expensive than what i would value them as. But i do not mind those who do put the time in or spend the money to buy such items.

I would want them to remove most of the cash-shop increasing the choice and experience for everybody in the game itself. It is however nice of you to agree that apparently the cash-shop does take part of that out of the game by stating you get can it by buying items from the cash-shop.

I did think we disagreed on that but we didn’t, you simply are fine with that.

There are not many of those ‘skill rewards’, liadri is likely one of the only ones while I say that pretty much all rewards (item) should be obtainable that way. And as long as the items are not account-bound they will still end up on the TP so if you prefer to grind gold you can still get them that way.

“But again your rewards are limited by your skill to accomplish in game tasks or earn in game gold” So buying gold with cash or running around with a zerg grinding gold equals skills?

No it turns the game into a boring gold-grind. You want anything? No problem just grind gold. That’s not skills my friend.

You see it’s that gold-grind in this game that I see as one of the negative side-effects of the cash-shop. Again you seem to agree with the effect (cash-shop / gold-grind), you just don’t find the required gold-grind to get most things a problem. In fact you see it as skill.

So it looks like we agree in most parts and how the cash-shop effects the game, just not as what is considered fun, or skill.

In my opinion the business model should not effect the game, anything in the game, the game-play or design-decisions. As soon as it does it’s bad for the game.

dodgycookies.4562:

For the buy price, i would say that the delivered product is pretty decent, not perfect by any means, but definitely worth the cost. I appreciate the fact that there is an in-game choice if i want a slightly better experience at a higher price while keeping the baseline product a great value. Whether they could achieve this with gw2 as f2p is debatable and would require their analytics data to really answer.

Devata.6589:

dodgycookies.4562:

I am completely ok with pay to win in a competitive environment as it is prevalent in all competitions irl as well. People place value on winning. Searching for and paying for advantages with in the rules is by nature competitive and is ok by me.

As for cosmetics, there is a value to that as well. Sometimes a product is inferior/same in performance but has better looks and charges a premium. If I want that look to my personal items then I would have to either make my own or buy. In either case there is always an inherent cost due to the value people place on visual design

Status symbols are a part of human society and the digital realm is no exception to the rule. Design is all about the looks or what the design represents so the difference between atoms and pixels is irrelevant.

Yeah however this is a game so you buy the game and then should be able to play for the rewards. The higher value item drops from the harder to kill mob / boss dragon.

So your right, just forgot to translate it to the game world.

I would say you should be primarily playing for the experience rather than the rewards. Rewards are just an extra bonus to make your experience feel satisfying. The sense of accomplishment is great, but really only pros should be playing solely for rewards. As they say amateurs: pay to play while pros get paid to play.

As for rewards, in most endeavors in life you are playing for rewards within the grasp of your own skill/resources. If you want better rewards than what you can currently reach you usually have to up your skill (mainly through time or paying for training) or increase your stock of resources buy purchasing more.

We are not asking for anything to be free. Just let us pay by buying expansions.

In fact playing for the reward is part of the fun and also gives the reward more value.

“If you want better rewards than what you can currently reach you usually have to up your skill” You can’t really.

“increase your stock of resources buy purchasing more.” We are playing a game. Or trying to. I do not consider buying items playing.

I stay with my previous statement that you forget to translate it to a game-world.

I did not get a game to be able to increase the stock of resources by purchasing ingame items. I got it to play the game and part of that (for me) is working toward rewards in the game.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

nexxe.7081:

lordkrall is the biggest fanboy ever. You defend Anet for everything! Come on man, be realistic. Everything they do isn’t perfect. Stop defending them from every criticism. Fanboys make games worse, because then the developers don’t think anything is wrong and they won’t improve the game.

There is a difference between someone who is rational and thinks through things and someone who is a blind fanboy. Lordkrall is extremely rational in his thinking… Just because someone is a fan of the game doesn’t mean their opinion is invalid – that is stupid reasoning because it would basically mean that the only people who should decide what should happen are people who don’t like the game – and everytime something happened to make them happy the game would be bad again because they would be fans…

Here’s an idea – if you are going to criticise the game be CONSTRUCTIVE about it. Constructive criticism involves acknowledging what is done well, and what you think isn’t done well – while acknowledging that it is YOUR opinion – and then proving what you think could be a good solution. Any non-constructive criticism is not worth listening to.

I won’t talk about anybody specific and you are right it does not matter if somebody id a fan or not. Everybody can have good reasoning.

But lets take a random discussion of me as example:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/KongZhong-Details-about-GW2-China/page/2#post4076768

If I say something and the reaction is totally not based on what I said to in that way tackle what I am saying (by disproving what I never said), then it starts to look like making excuses in stead of rational arguing.

dodgycookies.4562:

I am completely ok with pay to win in a competitive environment as it is prevalent in all competitions irl as well. People place value on winning. Searching for and paying for advantages with in the rules is by nature competitive and is ok by me.

As for cosmetics, there is a value to that as well. Sometimes a product is inferior/same in performance but has better looks and charges a premium. If I want that look to my personal items then I would have to either make my own or buy. In either case there is always an inherent cost due to the value people place on visual design

Status symbols are a part of human society and the digital realm is no exception to the rule. Design is all about the looks or what the design represents so the difference between atoms and pixels is irrelevant.

Yeah however this is a game so you buy the game and then should be able to play for the rewards. The higher value item drops from the harder to kill mob / boss dragon.

So your right, just forgot to translate it to the game world.

I agree with OP. I also remember the beginning of LS S1 when many people where already complaining about the LS and it’s temporary content. Then there was a live-stream with Colin who said e listen to the complains and the patches would be more frequent and the teams would become bigger meaning the content would be bigger.

Back then I already said that would not make thinks better but worse. If more and bigger temporary achievements list to grind down. I did here that S2 might get bigger intervals but then again not everything you read is true so we will see. If however it is true well they should have listen to me (and many people with me) back then.

Also the feeling of them being stubborn about mistakes or thinks that don’t work out so well is something I see a lot.

Anyway, I agree with OP. They should focus on expansions to create content and to generate income.

Sure with the start of LS2 we will likely get a few new maps but all in all the quality (and content) of the game could have been so much better.

Dusty Moon.4382:

If people want the cosmetics, then they know they have to pay. That doesn’t affect the ABILITY to play or being competitive in play. They are not equivalent. The game is NOT about cosmetics – it is about choice your choice on HOW you want to play or look. You are defining the game that way, not A.Net or myself.

As I said, that is all extra and does not affect the way the game plays. YOUR CHOICE – isn’t that what you want?

You make the mistake of assuming all people play it to be competitive. No you don’t need it to play. But I do not see how that makes it better? As I see now, you are a competitive player so I think you are heavely against P2W items in some games but you know.. you don’t need them to play. They are only useful to be competitive what not everybody cares about in an MMO. So would you then also be fine with P2W items?

“The game is NOT about cosmetics – it is about choice your choice on HOW you want to play or look. You are defining the game that way, not A.Net or myself. "
Funny you say you don’t define it as being about cosmetics, because you do it that the sentence before it.

“it is about choice your choice on HOW you want to play or [b]look[b/]”. Oow and how is buying a cash-shop item ‘playing the game’?

I am also pretty sure Anet did make a statement like that, anyway the main item to go for in the game (legendary) is a mainly cosmetic thing. That by itself says enough. And of course everybody playing GW2 can see that it’s heavely cosmetic focused.

“As I said, that is all extra and does not affect the way the game plays.” It’s only extra to YOU and it only does not affect they way YOU play the game. For many people it’s the main thing to go for in an MMO and by taking it out of the game or making it a gold-grind it is effecting there game-play.

Why are people like you not willing to also think about other people preferred game-play? Or do you really not understand that an MMO RPG can be played in many different ways, not all being your way. I am not asking for cosmetic items to be replaced with P2W items while it would likely effect my preferred game-play (in an mmo) less. Because I do also think about your preferred game-play.

Maybe you just don’t understand that your way is not the only way, I don’t know.

I do not have the choice to hunt down many of those items in the world. I don’t have the choice to directly work to pretty much anything in this game without being required to have a gold-grind to get that item. It’s all stuff that you consider extra but for me and many with me being competitive in an MMO is extra. If I want to be competitive I prefer a FPS.

This is a Role Playing Game after all. So by that definition alone being competitive comes second.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Devata.6589:

Behellagh.1468:

Devata.6589:

Behellagh.1468:

B2P is like the admission price to an amusement park. You can ride all the rides but that doesn’t mean you can get that stuffed unicorn at the ring toss for free.

Well in that case F2P would be better as it’s the same but without admission price? Obviously the comparison is not completely accurate from a business model perspective.

People with a sub would then get in every day but still need to pay for the hunicorn.

But to keep the same example, how much fun is then one of those grab machines if you don’t get the stuffed unicorn you manage to drop into the hole?

The F2Ps I’ve been exposed to lock playable content away behind pay walls. This includes areas, classes, races and normally start you out with an inventory capacity smaller than a lunch pale with only cash can expand into something useful since you can’t sell anywhere close to where you are and if you leave to do so then the content resets. So you are forced to either travel back to a vendor or bank (which costs) to save and sell your stuff or delete some stuff in the field to make room or buy more inventory for cash. Here you can cheaply get 80 slots per character and with the ability to TP or deposit collectibles or salvage and deposit collectibles, you don’t normally encounter a time when you have to take a break and trek to a bank.

So we pay up front for the game. We get all classes, races and access to all areas. Nothing in the gameplay mechanics is locked behind a pay wall. The rides in my analogy. But if you want that park T-shirt or chance to win that fluffy stuffed unicorn, yeah, that’ll cost extra.

I have seen some F2P games where thats the case but also many where it isn’t.
There are more ways to do thinks, thats the case for F2P and B2P obviously. Not all are just as good (or bad) for the game.
However if you buy your rewards you remove the element of playing for it. That is why some people (including me) complain about how thats bad for the game.

I think you are mainly talking about how it currently works in GW2 and I (and I think most players) don’t really disagree with most of that. However I am talking about how that negatively effects the game.

You seem to be fine with that, other aren’t.

There are also sub games that lock items and races behind a pay wall and a cash shop also.

The CS in GW2 doesn’t bother me at all. What do I have to buy from the CS, other than cosmetic items, that I can’t find in game? This is the key, there is nothing in the CS, that I have to buy. Heck, I can craft all the dyes I want with cooking.

Uhh yeah thats what I said “There are more ways to do thinks, thats the case for F2P and B2P obviously. Not all are just as good (or bad) for the game.”. Everything can be done in multiple ways but fact is that if you focus on the cash-shop to make money you need to get cash-shop stuff to sell. If you focus on expansions (or subs in your example) you don’t.

And here we go again.. No you do not NEED anything. It’s a game so everything is optional. If it effects your game-play depends on your personal game-play. If you like to hunt down / collect mini’s thats a game-play element that now it gone. To keep it to the mini example again. Maybe no problem for your preferred game-play but a problem for many other’s preferred game-play. Especially since this game is all about cosmetics.

Behellagh.1468:

Devata.6589:

Behellagh.1468:

B2P is like the admission price to an amusement park. You can ride all the rides but that doesn’t mean you can get that stuffed unicorn at the ring toss for free.

Well in that case F2P would be better as it’s the same but without admission price? Obviously the comparison is not completely accurate from a business model perspective.

People with a sub would then get in every day but still need to pay for the hunicorn.

But to keep the same example, how much fun is then one of those grab machines if you don’t get the stuffed unicorn you manage to drop into the hole?

The F2Ps I’ve been exposed to lock playable content away behind pay walls. This includes areas, classes, races and normally start you out with an inventory capacity smaller than a lunch pale with only cash can expand into something useful since you can’t sell anywhere close to where you are and if you leave to do so then the content resets. So you are forced to either travel back to a vendor or bank (which costs) to save and sell your stuff or delete some stuff in the field to make room or buy more inventory for cash. Here you can cheaply get 80 slots per character and with the ability to TP or deposit collectibles or salvage and deposit collectibles, you don’t normally encounter a time when you have to take a break and trek to a bank.

So we pay up front for the game. We get all classes, races and access to all areas. Nothing in the gameplay mechanics is locked behind a pay wall. The rides in my analogy. But if you want that park T-shirt or chance to win that fluffy stuffed unicorn, yeah, that’ll cost extra.

I have seen some F2P games where thats the case but also many where it isn’t.
There are more ways to do thinks, thats the case for F2P and B2P obviously. Not all are just as good (or bad) for the game.
However if you buy your rewards you remove the element of playing for it. That is why some people (including me) complain about how thats bad for the game.

I think you are mainly talking about how it currently works in GW2 and I (and I think most players) don’t really disagree with most of that. However I am talking about how that negatively effects the game.

You seem to be fine with that, other aren’t.

Behellagh.1468:

Note: the use of you is you in the plural sense and nobody specific.

Except I don’t see this “change” everyone is complaining about. Players are simply, finally, realizing that the gold to gem rate isn’t ever going to go down significantly due to overuse and ANet isn’t going to up the in game coin drop. They point out how to reduce the exchange rate buy converting bought gems into gold and everyone starts screaming as if this was some horrible conspiracy to turn the game into some F2P wannabe. It’s always been reliant on Gem sales but most of those upset by this sudden realization are finally facing the harsh truth. This isn’t the first Guild Wars. There aren’t going to be a string of reskins of the game every year under the guise of a “campaign”. That the longevity of the game is dependent on sales of gems, for cash. In Guild Wars if you wanted “purdy” skins you had to pay cold hard cash. Why is that so difficult to understand in Guild Wars 2? Why is that suddenly “ebil”?

Yes, yes, you all wanted expansions just like Guild Wars. But they denied considering or working on expansions since the game’s release. Even correcting NCSOFT’s own investor call statements. It’s not like they were hiding it.

And now, due to it’s overuse converting one way, the exchange rate is 3x higher than a year ago. And most of the crazy brain schemes to bend the game’s mechanics and reward system for “phat” loot have been thwarted for now, there is a dawning that there’s not enough hours in the day to earn gold for “free” cash shop items. It was never meant to be “free” indefinitely for everything. It was a way to supplement your cash for gems. What did you all think? Only stupid people bought gems with cash? Look up “tragedy of the commons”. That’s the Gem Exchange in a nutshell. So you all poor every last copper into gold to gem conversion every time something new pops up or return that you want. Then you complain you will never have enough gold to buy a precursor or weapon skin on the TP, all the while those players buying gems are converting them to the gold that you spent, that they then use to supplement their gold to buy those same precursors and skins on the TP.

Nope, you all steadfastly insist that everything offered in the game should be free with just game play. You all might as well order the tides back because it ain’t gonna happen. And it’s not because of China. The game has always been this, from day one. That fact that you all finally woke up to that fact is a sad statement how long people can play with blinders on.

I think the complains are more that it’s negative for the game itself. Not the question if ArenaNet is doing it this way.

It’s better for the game itself if it’s available in the game in stead of in the cash-shop (to take your specific example).

The question is not what ArenaNet is doing but the complain is that it’s not good what they are doing.

Maybe more people do realize that now, that can be true.

You say people did think they could convert gold to gems to get what they want ‘for free’ but I think it’s more accurate to say they don’t want to have to convert gold to gems but just want to play for it ingame.

Behellagh.1468:

B2P is like the admission price to an amusement park. You can ride all the rides but that doesn’t mean you can get that stuffed unicorn at the ring toss for free.

Well in that case F2P would be better as it’s the same but without admission price? Obviously the comparison is not completely accurate from a business model perspective.

People with a sub would then get in every day but still need to pay for the hunicorn.

But to keep the same example, how much fun is then one of those grab machines if you don’t get the stuffed unicorn you manage to drop into the hole?

Behellagh.1468:

But he’s like the reoccurring heavy on a TV series that monologues before escaping, leaving the hero with something to think about. While his PoV is important as all player’s PoV are, I not sure what percentage of the active population (not sure if he’s truly active) share his opinion.

Well you know what it is. While lately I see more and more people complaining about the cash-shop (focus) itself what I also still see and used to see are complains about elements of the games that imho are there because of the cash-shop focus.

Like people complaining about the game being such a grind or no fun rewards or complaining that many thinks are only limited available or the focus on specific elements of the game and so on.

Imho many of those problems (the ones I react on) are directly or indirectly related to the cash-shop focus. I then give my idea, and am willing to go into details.

In a lot of cases you do get similar discussions (what is no problems if it are different people) like ‘they have to make money’ on what I answer that they can also make money with expansions. Or that there are no items in the cash-shop that you don’t need on what I say that it you do not need anything but it can still influence your game-play and so on and so on. So I do understand it if you get tired of reading the same over and over again but mostly it are discussion with different people.

Now if people complain about something in the game it is useful to know the cause of it. It’s like debating the many fatalities in traffic, but it only becomes useful if you know the reason. Else you might be reducing the speed-limit while the problem is that all traffic light are not functioning properly.

So I provide people with my vision on it and then it’s up to them do decide for themselves if thats also the cause for there ‘problem’.

Because it’s not the case for everybody’s game-play. I think overall WvW and PvP have not a lot of negative influence from the cash-shop focus. You could argue that they get less attention from Anet because it’s not a direct source of income (No real reason for WvW people to buy gems) but thats about it. The game-play as it is does not get effect a lot by the cash-shop focus. So it’s obviously not a problem for every player. Mainly for the PvE RP player and then still depending on there play-style.

I just give the input and am willing to talk about the subject when people react on it and then it’s up to the people to make up there own minds.

Poplolita.2638:

Here we go again, a thread turned into a “Devata” thread once again. You guys are new in this forum? Maybe you should consider to check he/her post historic.

I don’t so much turn it into this I look for threads that touch the subject. (Like this thread did because of “on the long run the shop will be the predominant source for income”. What is exactly what most of my comments go about.. check my history). I did not put that sentence there you know. It are people that go with it or against it creating the discussion with me.

Check back in this thread. I started with only one smaller comment:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/KongZhong-Details-about-GW2-China/first#post4073023
Then there was a reaction on that: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/KongZhong-Details-about-GW2-China/first#post4073122

On what I reacted:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/KongZhong-Details-about-GW2-China/first#post4073252

On what somebody else reacted (without quoting) and thats how the whole discussion started. It’s not like I am looking to turn threads into anything like you suggest. But I do leave my opinion and it’s obviously a subject that go’s to many people hearts / thoughts because it usually turns into a discussion.

Besides there are more and more threads with this subject popping up and I don’t create them. Last thread I created myself about this subject what this. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/A-focus-on-micro-transactions/first So in December of last year.

It’s what I care about (It’s what I see as one of the biggest core problems with GW2) so it’s what I post about. If I post some initial reactions after that I mainly react on comments to me. But I also getting tired of repeating the same thing over and over again to the same people (what also happens a lot). I give you that.

Anyway, all I want to do is give people something to think about because a lot of times I so see people complain about the effects of that cash-shop focus so then I give the perspective as to what could the the reason of the effect they complain about (that focus).

(Many comments of me also go about the temporary nature of the LS btw, something else I care about. Guess that are then also Devata threads?)

I also don’t really know what your problem is with me mainly talking about this subject? Is that a problem? Or you rather not have me reacting on people that react on me? Rather keep it shallow?

I see more and more people complaining about exactly this so be happy that I am willing to go deeper into the subject (yes then it can become a discussion) then just comment a complain and leave not to be seen again.

It’s you who commented to somebody else ‘just the comment before this one’, “You assume way too much… Why don’t you try to prove him wrong with actual arguments, instead of using ad hominem?”.
Then there is somebody going into discussions with arguments (me) and you complain about that because it turns threads into discussions.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

If the time and money they spend on Living Story is the same as what they would spend on an expansion, then the quality would be the same. Either Living Story is ‘good quality’ (since it takes the same time and money), or your expansion is not worth much (as many people complain about the quality of the Living Story releases.

I guess there would be little difference, then. Just how long one would have to wait. You’ve said the game is already ruined because of the Gem Store, so even if they release an expansion, the income will be the same. I still prefer not to wait so long between content releases. It’s not like an expansion will give something better, as they spend the same time and money doing either.

Thats not accurate because the way you spend money effects your output. Same money in does not equal always same quality out.

Just take one of the many little instances we did have with the LS. Usually there was one character. That means voice-acting. That can easily cost a day of work recording (depends on the lines). Maybe people from Anet have to go to the voice-actor, maybe they send it over online (as I know it they have voice-actors from multiple places). Then that audio needs to be edited, the character needs to be animated and scripted, the instance need to be modeled. Mobs need to be created or animated or scripted / programmed (depending on the type of content and what is new). There go’s a lot of work into that. And then? A player go’s in. The people who do not care about the story don’t even listen to what the NPC is saying just wishing she / he stopt talking so they can start fighting. They kill a few mobs and they leave to never see that content again. Meanwhile the forums explode because those people who wanted dungeon-like content got only a small instance, the story people (who really got most attention) complain that the story is shallow and a few weeks later nobody really remembers the instance anymore. So it’s seen by many as none content and really it isn’t content anymore.

Lets say they would have been building a dungeon that would have been more work but likely the same amount of work as multiple mini instances we did see in the LS. The story could have been told better because there was more time / content in the game itself to tell it. The person wanting a dungeon would be happy, the person wanting a good story would be happy and it would be re-playable so it would have added content value.

Voice-acting and scripting could also have gone into new NPC’s on a new maps. Some of the voice-acting could have been reused multiple times. Adding to a bigger world. Much of the time that went into the small temporary activities could have gone into hearts, DE or maybe traditional quest (as we have seen some of them in the LS) for those maps. Overall giving more hihger quality content to play with that stays and should keep more people happy.

But you would have to wait a year before getting your expansion not have a lot in-between. Maybe one bigger patch and a very small ongoing story. But nothing like we did see with the LS. That is true. Higher quality but no bi-weekly LS patches.

Meanwhile because they make money that way they could put much of the cash-shop items as drops from specific mobs and events and bosses making it fun and worth while exploring it. No need for everything to be a gold-grind and no temporary stuff!, increasing the overall fun and quality of the game.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Devata.6589:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I’d rather a min in the cash shop (no impact on game play) vs having something like ascended stats in the gem shop (impacts game play).

They have to put something in the shop to generate income. GW2 isn’t build to work like GW1. I’m perfectly content with cosmetic, trivial items being there.

It does not effect YOUR game-play. In fact if they put ascended stats in the cash-shop it would not effect my game-play. However I would still be against it as it does effect the game-play for other people.

You might be fine with those items because they don’t effect your game-play. I’m not because overall it still effects the game-play just not your game-play. There are only trivial for your gameplay not for game-play in general.

And what I am saying is not that they have to do anything for free. Simply that they make there money with expansions in stead of with the cash-shop so they don’t have to put any of those things in the cash-shop.

How do you know they can make enough money with expansions alone?

Well because they did it with GW1, most non-mmo’s use a similar model where they release an expansion or a sequel like 3 years later. But maybe the best way to conclude that is that the numbers Ncsoft released.

Here are the numbers:
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/151443/1q14_NCSoft.jpg

What you can then do is see how much the income peaks with every expansion compared to the original sale for GW1. That’s on average 100%. Then you look at GW2 where you consider all income after the Q it was released as cash-shop and compare that to the original sale. Then you see it slowly drops and now seems to be steady at about 21% per q of the original sale. So an expansion every year (when having used a true expansions-based model.. I do think numbers would now be lower because they already alienated to many people) would likely generate about 100% of initial sale while the cash-shop generates about 84%. Of course you can never know completely sure but thats what you get from interpretation the numbers.

When I did see these numbers I was surprised myself., I figured the expansion model would really benefit in the long run so after 3 years it would slowly increase taking over from the cash-shop model and it would have a longer life-span so also generate money longer. These numbers suggest it’s even a bigger change putting the expansions-based model ahead already after it’s second year.. when releasing an expansion every year.

lordkrall.7241:

~

“The fact that they are adding completely unnecessary stuff that people can chose to buy if they want to? ”
Here we go again.. Everything is completely unnecessary! It’s a game. It’s just there for fun. And those thinks you refer to can be fun to collect in the world but are just as every element completely unnecessary.

I also gave the examples multiple times to you in multiple threads. And taking such items out of the game and into the cash-shop is indeed a good example. No hunting for that skin, or that mini or that dye. Not going to a barber to change your hairstyle. None of that as it’s mainly in the cash-shop.

Turning everything also into a gold grind because most stuff does not drop in the world (so you want something you buy it with cash or gold) and of-course they sell gold so if gold is important that could increase there gem-sales.

Also the temporary nature of the cash-shop (and likely more elements of the game) are simply a marketing trick. Create the sense or urgency to get people to buy items. Not something you want to be put up with when playing the game. Somebody sees a nice skin and ask you how to get it. Answer might very well be “sorry friend can’t get that anymore”. While if it was still in the game he could go and work towards it. Playing the game, having fun. Now he is more likely to walk away annoyed or unsatisfied. So no strangely enough I would not see that sort of things as positives.

Again, yes they make money what we are talking about is how they make the money, not if they need to make money. I prefer them making it with expansions in stead of with the cash-shop.

I never said an expansion is easy or cheap but I do think that the time and money that go’s into the LS every year is indeed enough to release a good quality expansions yes.

pdavis.8031:

From what I can tell, the OP, and others want more PERMENANT content in season 2. I guess we need to clearly define what that means. There was permenant content added in in season 1, but people don’t count it as content for whatever reason. There was a new explorable zone (2 if you count the queens pavillion), with a whole series of DEs, at least 2 JP in the new zone and the aetherblade JP, 2 new world bosses, a new dungeon path, a new fractal, a new gear tier, more crafting recipies, a new wvwvw map, new crafting materials, and thats what I can think of off the top of my head. Post season 1 brought us new traits and trait system, a whole new stat, new pvp reward track system, new ways to aquire mats for legendary weapons, and more.

If this isn’t “Permenent content” I don’t know what it. It’s much of the same stuff you’d find in an expansion, just brought out in smaller chunks. Yeah the story elements were left temporary, but again, as its been brought up before, thats the very nature of a “Living Story”. Also if you are looking for a story recap, because you missed parts of season 1, you CAN watch the recap videos here . I believe there are also some NPCs still around that can give you a full recap of the story as well. I know there was one in LA at some point, but you’ll have to look for them.

Some want expansion-like content like maps, races, guild-halls, professions (I rather see that as an expansions) and then also in the same amount as you would see as an expansion.

Other complain about the temporary nature of the LS. Temporary available activities, achievements and rewards pressuring you do grind it now or lose out on it forever.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Funny, in that article about expansions they specifically state:

‘Despite Flannum’s assurances, NCsoft and ArenaNet say they have yet to confirm plans for retail expansions.

“At the present time the ArenaNet team is entirely focused on ensuring that Guild Wars 2 is delivered to the highest possible standards at the earliest opportunity, as such future plans for expansions, campaigns or additional content are still to be confirmed,” read a statement from NCsoft and ArenaNet.’

Leaving out pertinent information is kind of an untruth, as well. One Dev said ‘Yes, expansions’, the company and the publisher said ’We’ve not yet decided.’ I guess both sides could use that article as proof, then. ; )

It’s an article from about one year before release of the game. Obviously they can not officially yet confirm expansions at that time as they would not confirm that until they had made the concrete plants for the expansion. Something that would likely happen around release, not a year before release when they are still working on the game.

Thats in fact even what the article says as to why they can not confirm it.
“At the present time the ArenaNet team is entirely focused on ensuring that Guild Wars 2 is delivered to the highest possible standards at the earliest opportunity, as such future plans for expansions, campaigns or additional content are still to be confirmed,”

Also I don’t see how this would proof that they said a year ahead that they would focus on the cash-shop to generate income. As you say it is proof for both sides.

lordkrall.7241:

Devata.6589:

More money from mini’s means more mini’s in the cash-shop and other bad cash-shop behavior. They see the cash-shop making money so focus even more on the cash-shop. Overall it does not do much good for the game but worse. Meanwhile thinks like mini’s are out of the game what might not be a problem for your game-play but is for many other players. Of course you can replace mini’s with a lot of things..

Oow and that still does not show how mini’s in the cash-shop is better is good for your game-play vs them out of the cash-shop. You simply ignore the mini’s here as game-play and talk about if they have money (what they can earn in multiple ways) they can make new game-play elements so in a way you are only confirming that it’s a negative from the game-play perspective surrounding the mini.

So any money made from the gemstore (which seems to be the majority of the income for GW2) is simply put back into creating more stuff for the gemstore? Might I ask how they have financed all development since released in that case? Because I find it very unlikely that box-sales alone have been able to manage salaries for 300+ people for almost two years.

It is better for my game-play since more money for ArenaNet means more money to spend on improving the gameplay. Just as I said in the earlier post.

We all know that you detest everything that requires some sort of payment, and will do anything to invalidate it as a source of income, but the fact remains, it DOES help pay for you as well. Or do you suggest that they can improve everything without getting money?

Come on man, just react on what I say, don’t translate it to your own story and then attack your own story as if it was mine. If you have to do that it only proofs you are right.

First of all I never said all money.

They create content with the cash-shop in mind. So if they make new content there is always the question “how do we get people to buy gems”. Thats what I mean bad cash-shop behavior. As that is what I said, not that it went back into the cash-shop as you translated it.

“Because I find it very unlikely that box-sales alone have been able to manage salaries for 300+ people for almost two years.” You do understand that putting money into the game means paying those salaries right??

“It is better for my game-play since more money for ArenaNet means more money to spend on improving the gameplay. Just as I said in the earlier post.”
You only say that more money is better for your game-play (what btw would suggest pure expansions focus would have been better looking at the numbers but that to a side) not why mini’s in the cash-hop improve the quality of the game as that was the original questions. There are multiple ways to make money. They whole point here is to what is better, not the fact that more money is better.

“We all know that you detest everything that requires some sort of payment,” Yeah that is why I did buy the CE, that is why I dislike F2P games and that is why I am asking for expansion every year (to finance there product) meaning I would have paid more by now then with this cash-shop focus as I have never and will never buy any gems. So by asking for something that in fact would mean I had to pay more you (wait everybody) can conclude I detest everything that requires some sort of payment.

You know with that sort of conclusions I like it that we are disagreeing here, because it gives a lot more credibility to my side of the story.

lordkrall.7241:

It is interesting how many people here seems to be fully aware about how ArenaNets development works.

Another thing that is funny is that when they don’t change things based on feedback (as in not follow their plan and do “on the whim ideas”) people whine about them ignoring feedback.
But now apparently they shouldn’t listen to feedback and just do their thing.

Make up your kitten minds.

I think a company always needs to listen to customer feedback and for a game the suggestion forums should be one of there main sources for idea’s.

Obviously they have to way our different idea’s and opinions and look at what they can but.

I don’t see a lot of people saying they should not listen to feedback. Only think I do see coming back to that extend is ascended gear. (Something I have not much of an opinion about) many say ArenaNet did listen to player feedback and should not have. As far as I know ArenaNet did not have that idea from players feedback but from themselves (or at least thats what ArenaNet said). Some people say ArenaNet came to that idea because people got there exotic gear sooner then they anticipated or because people complained there was nothing to do.

In all honestly I have never seen many threads requesting ascended gear and looking at how many people are against it it is also unlikely they would have gotten that from player feedback. Anyway I have no opinion about that.

Anyway other from that where some players say ArenaNet should not have listen to players I don’t see many people say ArenaNet should not listen to player feedback. So I don’t know where you see that.

Raolin Soulherder.3195:

Devata.6589:

Belenwyn.8674:

Devata.6589:

“on the long run the shop will be the predominant source for income”
Poor people will get the same breakdown of the game as we, but at least there they are honest about it. Hope they also said that before release, not only a week after.

This is a normal process. An expansion with costs would produce a straw fire . A sharp peak in income for on quarter and a sharp declension after that quarter. After a more or less short time the shop will become the main source of income again.

Define ‘normal’.

GW1 mainly used the expansions-sales so do most non-mmo games.

You are correct that if you use expansions as income you get a drop after the q where you sell the expansion and then your next peak will be when you sell the next expansion. That however does not have to be a problem. You simply get a steady income on a yearly base. That is fine.

In fact when we look at the sales of GW1 and compare it’s expansion-peaks to it’s initial sale it’s about 100%. GW2’s cash-shop sales start to drop and are now at a steady +- 21% every q. That means that after the second expansion GW2 would have started to earn more money with a pure expansion-based model then with the pure cash-shop model they use now.

And then I am not even talk about the fact that the compromises you need to make to the game for the cash-shop to work scares away people so that number might drop even lower and if they now would sell an expansion it would likely also sell less and less people playing a game also results in less opportunity to make money with merchandise. Lastly is does not benefit the game and so in also not a benefit for the long-term perspective of the game.

The cash-shop model however is a fairly easy, risk-low, proven, cash-grab approach. That is likely why it’s the way but it does not benefit the game or the customers and when done correctly it does even not benefit the company.

earning money is only half the equation for a business. how much a company earns in sales is meaningless if you don’t know how much they spend in generating those sales. I would guess that creating expansions costs significantly more than running a cash-shop

That is true, just holing up a cash-sop would be cheaper but apparently ArenaNet has a team of +300 people working. Not all developers obviously. But looking at the LS a lot of work went in there. If most of that would have gone into an expansions I think they could have released a pretty good expansion every year. The LS does not might seem much for many people if it comes to content but all the voice-acting, all the mini instances if you take all that work together I am pretty sure it would be enough man-hour to make an expansion. How many cash-shop items did we get in the first year? That could have all been new items to drop in the new expansions. So all in all I think they could have created an expansions with the same team / money and still have a small LS team to deliver an ongoing story, of course that would then be more like we did see the first few weeks of the LS.

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

“on the long run the shop will be the predominant source for income”
Poor people will get the same breakdown of the game as we, but at least there they are honest about it. Hope they also said that before release, not only a week after.

Or perhaps a year or more before launch as was the case for GW2.

Devata.6589:

There are indeed things that are personal depending on the person but no I don’t believe there are many people who say “Yeah I love mini’s in the cash-shop and not as drop because it makes the game so much better” .

I would certainly rather minis be in the cash shop where they can generate income from the players who desire them than have them be assigned as rewards for content so that anyone who does not care about minis is guaranteed to get nothing they care about as a reward from said content.

Make all minis tradable and my concern disappears as then those who dont care for minis can trade them for something they like..

You mean they said they would have a cash-shop to generate money not that it would be ‘predominant source for income’. You know that is a huge difference! In fact they said they would have expansions ‘for sure’ to finance the game and would also the cash-shop to generate money in-between (during development of the next expansion). From there statement you could not say that the cash-shop would have been the focus or it would be the predominant source. And after launch they pretty much dropped expansions as a total by stating “if we do this right we will never have an expansions”.

You know I never like it if people tell untruths to get there right because by doing so they put the onus at me and need I to show the facts and search for the resources. On the other hand, if people need to tell untruth to be right it pretty much shows they are wrong.

Here is where they made there 180 about a year ago. (Yeah officially it’s still on the table but it does show what there main plans are)
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-07-03-its-unlikely-guild-wars-2-will-ever-get-an-expansion-pack

And here is what they said about how they use the cash-shop AND expansions to generate income.
http://www.videogamer.com/news/guild_wars_2_expansions_a_sure_thing_says_arenanet_2.html

So with the knowledge of how GW1 worked and what they said there is no reason to believe cash-shop would be the main focus or predominant source for income. In fact looking with all the information you had it would make sense that expansions would be the ‘predominant source for income’ as that is what made ArenaNet big with GW1.

“I would certainly rather minis be in the cash shop where they can generate income from the players who desire them than have them be assigned as rewards for content so that anyone who does not care about minis is guaranteed to get nothing they care about as a reward from said content.”

I am happy to see people here trying to proof that mini’s in the cash-shop are in fact better for the game-play. Because it shows they are not trying to be objective about it but trying to make up excuses (what was not needed if it would be better for the game-play in any way). One person who starts about how money can make new game-play.. well that does not say anything about how the mini’s in the cash-shop are better for that part of the game-play itself.

You say that else people might not get drops they do not care about what is just well the worse excuse. As if, if mini’s would drop something else would not drop anymore.??? What make no sense whatsoever. So those people who like those other thinks could still get there drop and sell the mini’s got that drop. While in fact now there are people who do not get that sort of drops they like because they are not in the game in the cash-shop.

And yes at least most items that drop should be tradable. Including mini’s. Maybe you want have a select few that are account-bound but by far most drops should be tradable.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I’d rather a min in the cash shop (no impact on game play) vs having something like ascended stats in the gem shop (impacts game play).

They have to put something in the shop to generate income. GW2 isn’t build to work like GW1. I’m perfectly content with cosmetic, trivial items being there.

It does not effect YOUR game-play. In fact if they put ascended stats in the cash-shop it would not effect my game-play. However I would still be against it as it does effect the game-play for other people.

You might be fine with those items because they don’t effect your game-play. I’m not because overall it still effects the game-play just not your game-play. There are only trivial for your gameplay not for game-play in general.

And what I am saying is not that they have to do anything for free. Simply that they make there money with expansions in stead of with the cash-shop so they don’t have to put any of those things in the cash-shop.

lordkrall.7241:

Devata.6589:

Those examples are indeed improvements or tell me how it’s better for the game in general to have a mini in the cash-shop vs in the game from a game-play perspective.

There are indeed things that are personal depending on the person but no I don’t believe there are many people who say “Yeah I love mini’s in the cash-shop and not as drop because it makes the game so much better” .

So if it comes to those examples I do feel it’s general not personal. But if you prefer temporary content every two weeks or not that’s indeed personal. There are for sure some people who love that stuff.

Mini in cash-shop = more money.
More money = more resources for developing stuff for the game.
Mini in cash-shop = more gameplay stuff develop.

More money from mini’s means more mini’s in the cash-shop and other bad cash-shop behavior. They see the cash-shop making money so focus even more on the cash-shop. Overall it does not do much good for the game but worse. Meanwhile thinks like mini’s are out of the game what might not be a problem for your game-play but is for many other players. Of course you can replace mini’s with a lot of things..

Oow and that still does not show how mini’s in the cash-shop is better is good for your game-play vs them out of the cash-shop. You simply ignore the mini’s here as game-play and talk about if they have money (what they can earn in multiple ways) they can make new game-play elements so in a way you are only confirming that it’s a negative from the game-play perspective surrounding the mini.