Guild Wars 2

pdavis.8031:

Devata.6589:

pdavis.8031:

Balsa.3951:

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They went with the cash shop for a reason. The expansion model is a fading trend, and cash shops are where most games are going. Not just mmos, every type of game you can imagine. Facebook type games are making millions, and its solely a cash shop revenue. There is no proof that money is being lost, or they arent making enough, and everything points towards a sustainable amount of income from the current model even if we dont have the exact numbers.

I did read that wrong but it does not really change what I wanted to say. There is something in the cash-shop that you like. Now is buying that really fun or would be playing for more fun? Many people say “well you can convert gold to gems” so then the question would remain, did you not like to play to get the gold?
So what I am trying to point out is that by putting something in the cash-shop they do take something away from the game. Now you could still get it (grinding gold) but not really in a fun game-play way.

“Also those numbers don’t show how much revenue was game sales, and how much was gems. ”
No it doesn’t but it’s the best we can do with the numbers we have. However you may expect that the initial spike is mainly box-sales and there will for sure be people who did mediately buy gems for character slots and so on there will also be many box-sales in the quarters after that. So to level that out I did count the initial sales (that spike at the beginning) as pure box-sales and all income after that as pure cash-shop sales. That should easily level everything out the best we can with those numbers.

“With over 3 million games sold in the first 9 months. That’ s why you see a large drop off of sales toward the present. ” Yeah that only supports that it are mainly box-sales and that a B2P game (that is how many people did see GW2 on release because they released it as B2P and what they did with GW1) does have the potential to sell very good.

I am afraid that now they turned cash-shop focus even if they would be releasing an expansion they will not get close to sell that many while with GW1 they where able to almost sell as much copies of the first expansion as they did sell original copies.

I leave China out of it because it’s unrelated. There would be a China release whether they would use a true B2P model here or use the model they do now.

I never said they are losing money or where not making enough. I am not sure where you did read that?

You said “like getting paid a 6 month salary at the start of that period, then nothing for another six months. You can have that, or have a Daily income that has much more of a potential of making more during that same 6 month period. ” All I did show is that the numbers do no show what you are saying.. It does not seem to have much more of a potential of making more then the expansion-based model. In fact it seems to be the other way around. You are right about the fact that there is more or a period of no (lower) income in-between but that should be no problem. You simply work with the money form the last release. That is in fact how most businesses work. You invest and then later (and a year is not even that much) you earn, part of that you invest again and so on.

“The expansion model is a fading trend ”
Not sure why you would call it a fading trend. It is used a lot in non-mmo (counting sequels in the same model) and has never been used much in the mmo world but GW1 was successful with it and it made ArenaNet big. Then less then two years ago GW2 got released as B2P model (turned out to be a little different after release) and it became the fasted selling mmo on release in history. It’s not a popular model from a business standpoint likely because it’s more risky. Squeezing out money with a cash-shop is more easy using many marketing tricks. A successful B2P model means you also need to have a good product that people are willing to buy. Hyped would works for the initial game and it’s first expansion but want to keep selling expansions then you just need a good product.
So no the term fading is not correct.

Again, I never said they where losing money not earning enough or that they don’t have a steady flow of income. I only countered your comment that this would likely generate them more that a expansion based model would. I do however think that for the long term (3+ years) it will be more of a difference. I do think that a true B2P model has much better prospectives for in the long run simply because it alienates less people.

Wanze.8410:

If Anet want to make $$, they should release in China. Oh wait….

The one does not excludes the other.

Phy.2913:

We do you guys think the quality of an expansion would be any better than the quality of the LS? They released an expansions worth of content, for free, and you guys complained about it.

Well it does not have to be good but it sure can be much better.

You see, the LS is not free as you claim. It’s payed with cash-shop sales and is there partly to increase cash-shop sales.

So if they make money with cash-shop sales they have to try and sell us cash-shop items. But every item that is in the cash-shop takes away from the game-play in the game. An item that is in the cash-shop is not in the world to hunt down. And if they would put items in the cash-shop and in the game then why would people buy the one from the cash-shop? Likely only because it looks better what once again would take away from the game-play because now you are better rewarded by buying something from the cash-shop then from killing the end-boss (as an example).
Put the same item in the world and in the game behind hard content and it totally devalues the item in the game-world.. Yeah nice that items from that hard content but you can also just buy it.

Then there is making everything in the game a gold-grind. Many people dislike it but it does improve gem-sales to be converted to gold.

If they would focus on expansion sales to generate income there would at least not be a need for these sort of things. In fact as it might scare people away and make them unwilling to buy expansions you would like to prevent this sort of things. The question they then mainly have to answer is how do they get people to keep buying expansions and the best way to do that is to give good quality content (expansions) that keep people happy and willing to pay for it.

Ultimately that should increase the quality of the game.

But you are right, it would not guarantee anything. A B2P model (focusing on expansions) would only push them in the right direction but would not guarantee anything. Many people however do hope that that push will be enough.

KOPPER.1458:

I do not understand why some players think it has to be one or the other and not both. You can either only do expansion or only do gem store. Why can’t it be both?

Why do some think an expansion would drive players away? Expansions bring players in, even if only temporarily. The content has to make them want to stay, but a traditional expansion hypes the game up. Does LS do this? I’m not sure that it does. Perhaps a few of the LS patches do. Maybe.

Of-course you can have both but that does not yet mean you optimize sales or quality.
When you focus on a cash-shop it influences the game in a negative way for many game-players. Now if people do not have to pay for the game (what in case of GW2 they had) and expansions people may be more willing to accept it. In fact in many ways it mainly effects you if you don’t buy, that’s the way it’s designed. While not completely true. For example I love to hunt down items in the world but most of them are in a cash-shop in GW2. Sure I could buy them but what’s the fun in that?

Now if you focus on box-sales and expansions but have no or almost no cash-shop people must be willing to pay for the product and so are likely more picky and so are less likely to be oke with the way a cash-shop influences the game.

Meaning that with a heavy cash-shop focus you will have less people playing and so less sales. Something you want to optimize to increase cash-shop sales if that’s your main source of income, that would of course be level out with the income of those expansions.

However it means that having both does not also means higher income so from that viewpoint it might not be interesting.

Because I am willing to pay for content but do expect a high quality product that has everything in it I prefer a true B2P model. So no heavy cash-shop. (at best a name-changer, race-changer and a few more of those ’ out of game’ services.

I will not buy gems and if they don’t make changes to the model at this point with the current state of the game because of the cash-shop influence I am not even sure if I al willing to buy an expansion. It all depends on if they would make a change to a more expansion-based model. While if all those (directly and indirectly) cash-shop related issues weren’t there I would most likely buy a CE of an expansion without any problem because I would have much fun playing it.

So yeah you can have both, but that does not mean it’s optimal for sales or for the game. I do think it might be better for the game that cash-shop focus only but if it does not increase income enough and it would rise cost (because now you need to be busy with all the cash-shop related stuff like the LS and so on, and you need to develop an expansion) then they might prefer not to do it.

Wizzey.7845:

Devata.6589:

snip to prevent quote wall

Comparing GW1 and GW2 is a bit flawed because the market then was completely different from what it is now. Back then, every game was subscription and had the expansion model so the one game that has an expansion model without subscriptions would do pretty well. However, nowadays, there are so many F2P games that making people buy new expansions will probably make people leave and also prevent new players from coming in as well. If you need any evidence of why players would leave, just look at how WoW is hemorrhaging players in spite of having much more addictive mechanics that make you keep playing.( I really don’t agree with the whole gear treadmill mechanics of WoW and am biased against everything Blizzard because of everything they have done after D2.) As to why new players would stop coming, GW2 is a great value for it’s one time purchase and gives way more content and has much more longevity than any other game you can buy at it’s price. However, if there were say 2 20 dollar expansions. A player that might want to get into GW2 would see the 50 dollar initial price for GW2 and 40 more dollars for the expansions. The most sensible way to approach it is decide if the 50 dollar base game is worth it, if it is, buy it, play it and then decide if, individually, the 20 dollar expansions are worth it. However, for better or for worse, a possible new player would be thinking about things in a binary buy all or buy none point of view. A huge 90 dollar pay wall is enough to scare away the vast majority of possible new players, especially when compared to all the F2P games that GW2 has as competition. (Even if those games are usually pretty low quality and try to scalp players with extremely unfair pay for power options. but that is another discussion entirely.)

There are indeed many F2P games (there where also when GW1 was released but there are more now) but it would still stand out if it used a true B2P model just as it did with GW1 because thats a model you almost don’t see in MMO games.
Many people don’t like that because of how the cash-shop influences the game.

In fact with what they did now they made them compete with all those F2P games + having the initial box-price. People who don’t mind the cash-shop focus can still go to those F2P games.

And obviously when you release an expansion you reduce the price for the previous expansion (or game).

If you would not it would indeed hold of new players.

lordkrall.7241:

Devata.6589:

No not the hole system only how they changed the account-bound vs character-bound.
No problem.

But would you really have preferred the pre-release system just because it was account-bound?

Not the full system but I would have preferred it being account-bound at release.

I am also not really happy with he system that we have now. Still better that what they planned before.

However I much rather would have seen that they would have put the dyes (as colors, not unidentified) in the game behind content. A orange mob dropping the orange color, an pink boss being able to drop that pink one. An event that can drop it’s own color or an hearth or quest that rewards it’s own color and so on. That would make collecting them and exploring the world way more fun.

Phosphyr.1704:

Ok there are a few points to consider:

1. Expansions would not make more money than cash shop. There would be a short period of time where profits might spike but beyond that, no. Expansions are a one-time shot whereas cash shop is a continuing source of income. A player spending money for quality of life items in the cash shop over a period of 2-3 months will already give Anet more money than a player buying an expansion.

2. Given where the story is right now, an expansion wouldn’t exactly make sense. Anet clearly has a plan with the Living Story, which MAY set them up to release an expanded personal story. An expansion at the current time would really just be…out of place. “Here, take some new zones and shut up!”

Just my two cents.

For 1 the numbers simply show different.
The sales on expansion (at least in a popular game, not one that scared away half of it’s player base) earn more money on average then 1 year of cash-shop income.
So releasing an expansion every year would earn more money. (This is only not true for the first year)

And for the long-term it’s also better because they can put there attention into making a good game / expansion instead of trying to get people to buy gems.

A better game with more players will also result in a better name for the company and better merchandise sales. Thats stuff I don’t even count in yet.

For 2 why would it not make sense? The dragon that did awake is in a new area. Bigger problem is that expansion-sales would be much lower then they could have been because they scared away to many people already. And if they keep going this way, even when releasing an expansion sales for a second expansion would be even worse.

pdavis.8031:

Balsa.3951:

seriously china just got gw2 u honestly think they release a new box directly ??

and who say anet dont make money ?

I’m with you. It takes a huge amount of money and resources to launch a game in a new market, even if the game has already been launched. If anet was losing money they wouldnt even consider such a huge launch as the cost would be far more then the overall gain. Love it or hate it, the gem store does make money. While we dont have access to the actual numbers, we can see the exchange rate of gems to gold increasing. Which means lots of people are buying gems, using some and converting to gold. It takes so much gold to get gems, many people, myself included, will just spend 15-20 dollars and get the gems that way. Its faster and youll always get the same amount of gems.

Having an expansion model does mean that sales spike at the launch, there is little steady income until the next expansion. But the sales from a cash shop keep coming in. Its kinda like getting paid a 6 month salary at the start of that period, then nothing for another six months. You can have that, or have a Daily income that has much more of a potential of making more during that same 6 month period. I don’t know about you, but I would take the latter.

The only problem is that your numbers don’t add up.

But let me first ask you something.. You buy gems to convert to gold. So you don’t like the game enough to play the content?
You did not buy the game to play it but to be then able to buy ingame items?

No to the numbers. We do have some of the numbers and here they are:
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/151443/1q14_NCSoft.jpg
We can compare GW2’s graph with GW1’s graph to see the relevant incomes for the two.
Calculations here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/NcSoft-earnings-1Q-14/page/3#post4029793

What we see if that GW2 had done it the same way as GW1 (no cash-shop and regular expansions) they would likely have earned more money by now. Now maybe GW1 was a little to fast for a game like GW1 with expansions so lets say they would release an expansion every year then GW2 would have been earning more money with that model from the second expansion sale.

That is a steady income with a years interval. That should work just fine, numbers seem to show that it would generate more money and there would be no need for cash-shop focus so everything can be ingame resulting in a better game, more people and a better name for ArenaNet.

And then we haven’t talked about the period after that (longer term). This cash-shop focus alienates many people. That is not good at all for the long-term.

It might be just fine for you (since you are a buyer). You might not might that game-play is made a gold-grind to get more gem-sales you just buy the gold. But many people do care and do leave.

Dark Jackson.3417:

China ‘’Getting in movement’’ Could finance an expansion.. More likely every1 would end up buying that expansion so it’s a direct markettin hit for Anet, They would make money, and we would appreciate the content. The thing is they’re not ready for it right now.

The map is getting old. ( All re-re-seen content on a shuffle/repeat )

I am afraid that what they did with the game (for a big part because of there cash-shop focus) has alienated so many people that by far everybody would end up buying the expansion. Like happened for GW1.

Yargesh.4965:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

They make enough money indirectly selling in game currency and dress up costumes that should’ve been obtainable through completing content.

This.
No need to make expansions when they make more than enough money already.

No need to make a boxed expansion. They will definitely be expanding into new areas and content.

How would that help getting rid of the bad cash-shop influence?

Yeah I would also love to see SAB coming back. Funny really that the thing they put in as a joke is one of the best things they did put in since release.

About nerving rewards. I do hope things like the wind-catchers backpack will drop again. Seeing how it went before you might expect it not to drop but lets hope that they finally learned from there mistakes.

DelusionsOfGrandeur.9287:

Manasa Devi.7958:

An expansion is the only thing they can offer that I’ll pay for.

Then it’s a good job for Anet that you don’t represent 100% of their player base, or else they’d all be out of jobs by now and GW2 would have been shut down.

Or they would have to been forced into making expansion, there would be no need for a cash-shop focus leaving us all with a better game, they would keep a better name and they would still make the money they needed because of expansions-sales.

The problem is that indeed not 100% of the player-base does that. Now we end up with a worse game that more people walk away from, results in a worse name for ArenaNet and might eventually mean many people will be out of jobs.

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

A game that does not have a sub and does not earn their money to have players coming back to play for a mounth a year… I don’t think an Expansion is a good profit for GW2 I put my bets on Living story that makes players coming back every two weeks and put’s their money on minitransactions that they just need to have before that living story part ends.

That is just what I think. But it realy bothers me when people start threads claiming Anet/NCsoft doesn’t know how to make the best money, I mean it is the companies that has the numbers and just becouse you read the numbers on the internet it doesn’t have to be accurate or even true and also moslty it is not enough numbers.

I can’t answer your question so I guess this post was directed at Anet who have stated that they will talk about expansions later so wait til that day.

My answer about expansions, I wouldn’t mind an expansion but if I had to choose expansion or Living Story I would choose Living story (Bi-weekly update that is).

In fact we do have the numbers. (or at least the best we can get them)

https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/151443/1q14_NCSoft.jpg

If they would have done the same as with GW2 (Only expansions, no cash-shop) they would likely have made more money then they now did.

Now maybe it’s a little to much to ask expansions that regular so lets say they had released an expansion every year then at this moment they have made a little more but at the release of the next expansion they would have overtaking the income and made a higher profit that way.

See calculations: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/NcSoft-earnings-1Q-14/page/3#post4029793

This is based by looking at the initial release of GW1 and GW2 and then comparing the income per quarter after that compared to the initial release.

Problem now is that they have a cash-shop that seriously influences that game for many people so even if they where to release an expansion now, if they would keep the cash-shop focus they might get way lower sales (compared to GW one that had got +- 95% and 110% of initial income at the release of the expansions) because of the people they alienated.

There would still be a spike but the question is how much more or less they would then still earn overtime. And they damaged thee own name. GW2 initial sale it thanks to ArenaNets name it set for itself with GW1. Overall you can’t say they took the best route however when looking from Ncsofts perspective they did have the most safe route and NCsoft simply moves on the next game when GW2 does not make enough profit anymore.

lordkrall.7241:

Devata.6589:

We where talking about account-bound vs character-bound. Not how you had to earn them. Yeah original planned way to earn them was pretty bad and that changed after a storm-load of negative feedback.

Oh, I thought we were talking about how they changed the system from pre-release to release and how much it sucked that they changed it.
My bad then.

No not the hole system only how they changed the account-bound vs character-bound.
No problem.

Asmodeus.5782:

I work in gaming and I do love to throw money at games I like. In a way, I perceive it as supporting my own industry. I imagined this cash will go into making the game even better. Made a mistake. They’ve taken a megadump on my trust. My bad.

Well usually games also have something as collectors editions. That is also a nice way to throw in some extra money. (My preferred way, only then be careful with per-order stuff. The next thing them seem to be using to fool people into spending money on a bad game / content that is hyped / marketed very well. You don’t want to support bad behavior in the industry you like so much.)

However crawlerxp is right about the fact that it go’s to much off-topic so lets leave it with that.

I do wonder what ArenaNet is going to do about all the complains.
There are just to many to ignore.

I still think an auto-guesting system with grouped server plus the option to manually guest between those servers is the best solution.

crawlerxp.1536:

Devata.6589:

So first you pump in 60k on gems to support the kitten cash-shop focus that is a huge part of much of downfall of this game (not mega-servers by the way, they are not related to the cash-shop) and then you leave us with the mess.

I do hope this is a lessen and you will never ever spend any cash in any cash-shop anymore. Just pay for good content by buying games and expansions. No more cash-shop.

I really don’t think this is the time or the place to get into a cash-shop debate. There are threads for that; this isn’t one. There also isn’t any need for that level of hostility or binary posturing. This is a feedback thread related to the megaservers. Try to keep it on-topic, constructive, and non-confrontational.

No hostility at all. He did bring up the 60k gems so I did feel the need to react on that.
I sincerely hope it is a good lesson. Don’t push money in a game for ingame items because you can never know what they might do. (including mega-servers) Buy the content itself instead.

Jski.6180:

@ Devata.6589 (its getting to long)

I do not run champ trans and when i did at worst i did 1hr and i talked to ppl running it and they talked back ppl even get on ts and talk when they are running it your fooling your self if you think online games are for any thing else but human contact all mmo online games etc.. (how ever you phase them) are about talking with other ppl they are super advantages chat rooms.

Did I ever say anything that even remotely comes close to that you have to play it alone or something? No I did not so I’m not sure why you now seem to suggest I did.

Jski.6180:

I am telling you what system you have in other mmorpgs and how they compare to the system GW2 has and how GW2 system is much more open then these other system. RNG drops are nothing compared to random gold drops and gold items drops i am talking on the lines of one mob that pops every 24hr+ that has a very rare chase to drop an item that can only be used by 3 classes and really only one of these classes want it. RNG mob drops are overspecialized drops. Token systems are specialized dungeon or zone drops where you can only get items from doing one event like only getting say karma armor from one zone karma not the karma over all from all zones.

Again I am not an advocate for tokens. I do think the token-system GW2 has for it’s dungeons is a nice extra but thats about it.
You are now also suddenly adding new variables. Now it’s suddenly about time-gated content (I am no fan of that) or class specific drops (not so much a problem for me).
Still if that time-gated problem would be the case you could do another dungeon / boss and also if items are class specific you would still be able to sell it. So if you prefer grinding gold or at least have a reason to do it with a friend thats still an option.

If an item drops 1/ 100 times there is an average number of timer on what most people will get it. That is also linked to an amount of time. In that same way it is also for grinding gold. You grind x hours for y gold then you buy it.
Only difference is that on average the gold-hours will be more stable while with the specific drops the one time you will get lucky and it drops faster and the other time it will take longer then the average.

Jski.6180:

Like real life gold and or money is the best system of trading goods from one person to another.

Yeah in the real world where you don’t kill a dragon that drops a cool mini-version of himself and where you do not have a bag that can hold many pig hides money is indeed a better system of trading goods. But that does not make it the most fun one in a game. And this is a game and fun is important there.

Jski.6180:

I am trying to say once you get the major drops from dungeon in an pure token system there is no more reason to go back to the dungeon other then to “help” but even that becomes a stran on a friendship because it makes the person who wants the item the person who making other help them do there events it crates and haves and have nots and over time it will destroy community.

Again.. I am not here to support the token system as a main system I am talking about specific drops. And again.. in the case of specific drops if you like to grind gold it’s still useful to go with the friend because if one of those items drop for you you can sell them at the TP and make a lot of gold on them.
Please don’t let me repaint this same explanation again. I now already said that like 5 times to you and you keep saying the same totally ignoring it.

Its about giving ppl insensitive to running events with other ppl ALL EVENTS even the low level ones there is a reason to do every thing in GW2 there is never truly a death event for ppl even if they played this game from day one. Every one from a new to old player gets something from these events and they can use this to get any thing in the game that they want. So all content is good content or at least useful content.

Well all those people who prefer going directly for an item don’t. And all those who want to do it for gold would also be able to do all that content if it rewarded specific items because they can then sell those items for gold. (6th time)

Asmodeus.5782:

I’m also gradually leaving this game behind, searching through new ones. 60k gems and a year later we’re both leaving, with my gf. The most enjoyable events in the game turned into mindless farm spots due to messed up map caps and lack of scaling. And not a word from anet to make us believe it’s going to get any better. Good game, goodbye.

So first you pump in 60k on gems to support the kitten cash-shop focus that is a huge part of much of downfall of this game (not mega-servers by the way, they are not related to the cash-shop) and then you leave us with the mess.

I do hope this is a lessen and you will never ever spend any cash in any cash-shop anymore. Just pay for good content by buying games and expansions. No more cash-shop.

lordkrall.7241:

Devata.6589:

Account-bound dyes is worse then character-bound dyes?

The original system (finding seed, put seed in home-instance, wait for 24h or pay for gem-store item for instant growth) was worse than the system we had at release yes.
The release system made it fully possible to get every single dye without every spending any real money in a few weeks, while the BWE1 system would make that impossible, seeing as each dye took 24h or costed gems.

We where talking about account-bound vs character-bound. Not how you had to earn them. Yeah original planned way to earn them was pretty bad and that changed after a storm-load of negative feedback.

Jski.6180:

Devata.6589:

What you do not get is that in a game some people like to directly work towards an goal or an item. That is the way they like to play, that is content for them and that is what gives that item more value.

By making gold everything.. you want to level crafting? grind gold, you want a skin? grind gold, you want a mini? grind gold, you want a legendary? mainly grind gold. If you prefer hunting down items, if you like the added value of an item because of it’s specific drop then this gold is everything is not fun, it boring and it feels like a bad job. Yeah you can still do any (well many) type of content to earn the gold but you can not do specific content to get the specific drop. All I say is that as long as you do not make it account-bound those who prefer to grind gold still can.

It’s the loot-system and the cash-shop (both related) that make everything = gold in this game and it’s one of the reasons a group of players is not satisfied with the game. Believe it or not.

And GW2 system make it so playing with other ppl dose not make you less gold like other mmorpgs but makes you more gold so yes getting gold IS TEAM CONTENT and by doing it with a team those skins are more meaningful to you as a player.

Yeah I am sure all those champ-train runners feel there rewards are much more valuable because they urned the gold by running champ trains.. Really who are you fooling here? Me or yourself?

Jski.6180:

Devata.6589:

Its a gold system that you can buy any thing you want and there by do any thing you want to get this gold with out the fear of only getting a set number of items (so you can help your friends do one event and still get meaningful loot as in gold or items to make gold and they can do events with you and get the same). The other system is a pure RNG as in you must kill this mob to get a drop or you must run this even to get a drop (meaning if your friends do not need it then they are less likely to help you because they are being left out and punished for doing events that do not help them self.) The last main system is a token system much like a gold system but more like an RNG system (so in a way its the worst of both worlds.)

I am not advertising a token system here so lets forget that for a moment.
Earning gold is for much of the content also still just RNG. Running champ trains as some do will RNG drop random items and they sell them to make money.

If items drop from specific content and you run that content with a friend because he needs it it will still be able to reward you because if one of those items drop you can sell them for gold. Your story would only hold true if all those items would only be account or character bound what I already said multiple times does not have to be the case for most items.

I am not taking away the gold-option I just add another one (and yes then gold might not be the most optimal anymore but it;s still an option).

Jski.6180:

Devata.6589:

Let me leave you with this: You run a dungeon in any other game you run that dungeon mostly for items that drop from that dungeon so only ppl who want these items go to this dungeon once they get these items they are done with it. In GW2 you run a dungeon to get items from that dungeon AND the gold that it give you because you can use this gold to get things you want so once you get what you need from dungeon in GW2 you can keep going back to get more items you want from the gold generated from these runs.

With getting items from a dungeon you mean the token system I guess? Yes that is a nice EXTRA that as EXTRA I do not say is bad. But so far there are not yet many specific drops in dungeons.
And you can do exactly the same in those dungeons in MMO’s where you have specific drops if that is what you wish to do. The fact that indeed most people don’t only seem to proof that grinding gold is not the preferred game-play for many. But also in those games you could run that dungeon over and over again and then simply sell those items on the TP to make money.

Jski.6180:

Corpus Christi.2057:

One poster some time ago said something like this in another thread: “GW2 in its pre-release plans had dyes as account bound. Then, an opinion came, from a marketing division, to make them character bound.” ( no idea what his source was, though, so approach it with a distance )

Please, remember, the skins were made into a “wardrobe system” only after tons of complaints from the playerbase recently.

It kinda negates all your arguments.

Still, I loved GW – still consider it the best MMO of all time, next to Lineage – and I do have hopes for GW2 that they will, as you say, finally listen to the crowds and give us expansion-worthy content this year. Permanent stuff, above all.

No sry it dose not negate any of my argument my point is that if Anet truly wanted to make more money then skins and dye would not be account bound because it makes ppl buy more who want them because ppl buy things because they want to not because they need to in GW2.

[/quote]
I am afraid it does not work that way and Anet found out that for them-self. With char-bound dyes most people will likely not try to collect them all because then they would have to do that for all the chars. So in stead they only take the colors they really want.

Now if they make it account-bound people are more likely to try and collect them all.

in fact I personally did get much more dyes after the patch that made them account-bound then in the 1,5 years before.

Jski.6180:

Corpus Christi.2057:

BTW a lot of ppl out right lie about there info you realty do need to have some backing even if it a logic backing that i am trying to present.

There been a lot of permanent stuff added in that are expansion-worthy but the story do end and the progression of the story must keep moving forwarded. Each LS is part of a bigger story this is an expansion of the GW2 world. And all story are permanent even the GW1 story is still part of GW2.

Many people seem to feel different about that.
Just as many people seem to feel different about the gold = everything and how great that is according to you.

lordkrall.7241:

Corpus Christi.2057:

One poster some time ago said something like this in another thread: “GW2 in its pre-release plans had dyes as account bound. Then, an opinion came, from a marketing division, to make them character bound.”

I suppose the same poster “forgot” to mention the fact that those account-bound dyes were much worse than the character bound system we had at release, right?

Account-bound dyes is worse then character-bound dyes?

You know what would have also been better. If also dyes would not be a gold-grind but specific colors would be available for specific content. So some orange mob can drop that orange color.

Now there is reason to go explore the world and hunt those things down. But sadly also getting dyes is just done by grinding gold. Or buying gold but that does not count as that is not playing the game.

Corpus Christi.2057:

Jski.6180:

Devata.6589:

“If getting gold as best as you can is something you like to do”. I do not like to do that.

“I mean how often do you want to be payed for work you have done in real life with eggs or food or any thing other then money?” Exactly my point. This gold-grind makes it feel like work.

I don’t want it to be like real life. How often do I get to kill a dragon in real life?

I have now also said multiple times that as long as you do not make all items account-bound gold will always be an option to get those items. So I don’t take that part away.

Tokens is the same. it’s farming for an item. However the token system is not bad as an extra. If you would have specific drops from bosses in dungeons that would be great and while you do that dungeon multiple times for that item in the meanwhile you at least get the tokens and so eventually get a full dungeon-set. So it’s a nice extra but not so fun as working directly for an item.

And maybe the fact that everybody can make money and then buy everything is what devaluates all those items.

Anyway with making items drop from specific content you do not take the gold-option away. At least not for the items that are not account-bound.

You seem to think its the only way to play the game or you would not view the gem story as being that big in the game.

You comply miss my point this is a question of gold vs tokens gold is universal tokens are only for a small number of things there for tokens system become more restrictive in what you can do to get something where gold is something that allows for any use. This is the def of what money in real life was ideally to work and that why we use it over a barred system.

You often do not get too far from real life in a game or you would simply be unable to relate to that game. Every day that you have a challenges in real life is fighting a dragon just because its not a real thing dose not make getting over something less like “fighting a dragon.”

But all skins ARE account bound from here on forever stop making things and saying thing the way they are not. We are talking about skins and skin alone all gemstore armor are nothing but skins much like you would buy skins for LoL they do nothing for the game but are simple add on that ppl can get.

Your so comply confusing your self here GOLD AND MONEY ARE A TOKEN SYSTEM they are just universal tokens unlike getting tokens from a dungeon that you can only spend on that dungeon.

See at one point you sound like you want every one to be able to get these items and then the next you sould like its a good thing that they cant or you want to make it so they cant. Money is a way to make sure both things can happen.

If: The cost is greater then the cost to get something then no one will get it If: the cost is equal or less then the cost of getting something then ppl will get it ppl have gem store items therefor the cost must be less or equal for these ppl to get these items. If it was truly boring to make gold in GW2 then ppl would not do it same with evens, zergs, etc… your trying to hold hostages (with a very small pop. of gw2 point of view) the game.

In a game like GW2 items mean nothing only the skins from though items and all thoughts skins are account bound. If this game was truly a money grab that ppl like to make it out to be then skins would of not been made account bound nor would dyes nor would even top level gear. Anet is really trying to work with the GW2 communally and these forums are doing every thing they can to get in the way.

One poster some time ago said something like this in another thread: “GW2 in its pre-release plans had dyes as account bound. Then, an opinion came, from a marketing division, to make them character bound.” ( no idea what his source was, though, so approach it with a distance )

Please, remember, the skins were made into a “wardrobe system” only after tons of complaints from the playerbase recently.

It kinda negates all your arguments.

Still, I loved GW – still consider it the best MMO of all time, next to Lineage – and I do have hopes for GW2 that they will, as you say, finally listen to the crowds and give us expansion-worthy content this year. Permanent stuff, above all.

While nobody can say for sure it came from the marketing team (as they don’t tell that) it came right after they hired a new monetize person coming from a game infamous for it’s cash-shop approach. Whenever that link get’s posted the thread tents to get closed with some bad excuse so if you like to see the source google for “nexon buys arenanet monetize dyes” then it should end up pretty high.

Jski.6180:

Devata.6589:

“If getting gold as best as you can is something you like to do”. I do not like to do that.

“I mean how often do you want to be payed for work you have done in real life with eggs or food or any thing other then money?” Exactly my point. This gold-grind makes it feel like work.

I don’t want it to be like real life. How often do I get to kill a dragon in real life?

I have now also said multiple times that as long as you do not make all items account-bound gold will always be an option to get those items. So I don’t take that part away.

Tokens is the same. it’s farming for an item. However the token system is not bad as an extra. If you would have specific drops from bosses in dungeons that would be great and while you do that dungeon multiple times for that item in the meanwhile you at least get the tokens and so eventually get a full dungeon-set. So it’s a nice extra but not so fun as working directly for an item.

And maybe the fact that everybody can make money and then buy everything is what devaluates all those items.

Anyway with making items drop from specific content you do not take the gold-option away. At least not for the items that are not account-bound.

You seem to think its the only way to play the game or you would not view the gem story as being that big in the game.

You comply miss my point this is a question of gold vs tokens gold is universal tokens are only for a small number of things there for tokens system become more restrictive in what you can do to get something where gold is something that allows for any use. This is the def of what money in real life was ideally to work and that why we use it over a barred system.

You often do not get too far from real life in a game or you would simply be unable to relate to that game. Every day that you have a challenges in real life is fighting a dragon just because its not a real thing dose not make getting over something less like “fighting a dragon.”

But all skins ARE account bound from here on forever stop making things and saying thing the way they are not. We are talking about skins and skin alone all gemstore armor are nothing but skins much like you would buy skins for LoL they do nothing for the game but are simple add on that ppl can get.

Your so comply confusing your self here GOLD AND MONEY ARE A TOKEN SYSTEM they are just universal tokens unlike getting tokens from a dungeon that you can only spend on that dungeon.

See at one point you sound like you want every one to be able to get these items and then the next you sould like its a good thing that they cant or you want to make it so they cant. Money is a way to make sure both things can happen.

If: The cost is greater then the cost to get something then no one will get it If: the cost is equal or less then the cost of getting something then ppl will get it ppl have gem store items therefor the cost must be less or equal for these ppl to get these items. If it was truly boring to make gold in GW2 then ppl would not do it same with evens, zergs, etc… your trying to hold hostages (with a very small pop. of gw2 point of view) the game.

In a game like GW2 items mean nothing only the skins from though items and all thoughts skins are account bound. If this game was truly a money grab that ppl like to make it out to be then skins would of not been made account bound nor would dyes nor would even top level gear. Anet is really trying to work with the GW2 communally and these forums are doing every thing they can to get in the way.

What you do not get is that in a game some people like to directly work towards an goal or an item. That is the way they like to play, that is content for them and that is what gives that item more value.

By making gold everything.. you want to level crafting? grind gold, you want a skin? grind gold, you want a mini? grind gold, you want a legendary? mainly grind gold. If you prefer hunting down items, if you like the added value of an item because of it’s specific drop then this gold is everything is not fun, it boring and it feels like a bad job. Yeah you can still do any (well many) type of content to earn the gold but you can not do specific content to get the specific drop. All I say is that as long as you do not make it account-bound those who prefer to grind gold still can.

It’s the loot-system and the cash-shop (both related) that make everything = gold in this game and it’s one of the reasons a group of players is not satisfied with the game. Believe it or not.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Devata.6589:

Xae Isareth.1364:

I would very much prefer DLCs. The problem with expansions is that they don’t allow the developers to adjust. They take years to make, so if the community turns out to hate an aspect of what’s planned, well, tough luck.

With DLCs, you can tune in to what people like.

I’m fine with the LS concept, apart from it being temporary. Expansions happen like every 2 years and give you what, a month or 2 of actual content? So if you add all the LS actual content up, it actually might be better than an expansion, IF we can go back to play them.

I personally don’t like DLC it always feels like a scam. But you could make a mix, sell an expansion but also sell parts of it separate. If you buy the expansion you get the whole package including all those separate DLC things.

an expansion does not have to take 2 years. One year should be enough. GW1 did it even faster but for GW2 it might indeed take a little longer. however if you focus on expansions as sale 1 year should be sufficient. You can still easily shift because the upcoming expansion is that always a year maybe max a yeah and a half away.

I don’t really see how DLCs are a scam though. If there’s 4 DLCs in a year, you pay $10 for each of them, whch is basically what most MMOs charge. then you’re basically paying an expansion in instalments, but getting content in more frequent bits.

The problem as I was stating is that you have to get it right the first round, otherwise its basically 1/2 years of work down the drain.

For example, if Anet released an expansion, cutscenes in it probably would be still like the talking heads in your PS, and the story the quality of LS Season 1.

It does not have to be but if you look at what many games release as DLC it’s the sort of patches they would release for free a few years ago and something it’s obvious they on purpose left that part just out of the game so they can sell it later as DLC.

It can be done right yet personally I would still prefer expansion. And there is also the type of content that is really hard to put in DLC simply because it´s to big.

I do get your point but we are talking about a year, prefer other content next years expansion will have that. Even with smaller parts you can´t just throw away everything to go in another path because the it would be to expensive. Also for DLC´s.

A way to counter it is working on one part (of the expansion) at a time and keep in contact with the community.

Jski.6180:

Devata.6589:

I am not a boring person who can only think in terms of best gold. Not sure where I said I did that. I said grinding gold for everything is boring. And so I do not do it.

I like to work towards an item. It makes content more fun. Every-time you do it the rush of getting the item. That is what is fun for me and many people. Doing some content and seeing you gold-number slowly go up is not fun. In addition it gives the item itself more value. It’s something you did especially that content for in stead of something many people might have just gotten by grinding gold with champ trains or whatever is most profitable at this time (I don’t know as that is not what I do). I simply am less interested in the items taking the game-play “working toward items” away.

I am also not sure what you mean with saying that I ‘take it out on others’? I did say, as long as items are not account bound those can still be both with gold so people who prefer to play that way can still do so.

I also said I did level an alt and do JP’s. That would then be “the way I like to play” in your explanation I guess (in reality ‘playing th way I want’ is working towards those items) but that will never get me the gold I would need for most stuff.

I think your first statement is saying that you are a boring person (if getting gold as best as you can is something you like to do but you find getting gold boring that makes you in your own view a boring person) and we can only truly judges our self.

There also more ways to get “items” then just simply gold farm but gold still needs to stay important to the system to keep gold at a high valuable. I mean how often do you want to be payed for work you have done in real life with eggs or food or any thing other then money? By keeping gold as an important part of the system for getting “items” you open up a chose for every one to do any thing they want to get to some type of “item” any item. In more of a token system like you see in dungeons you must run though dungeons over and over to get the skins or the items from it.

Its an attk on points of views every time you say i want more of a finite system to get items being that money or gold is the most open system of getting “items.” It just happens everyone can make gold in GW2 well not every one can do all the content.

“If getting gold as best as you can is something you like to do”. I do not like to do that.

“I mean how often do you want to be payed for work you have done in real life with eggs or food or any thing other then money?” Exactly my point. This gold-grind makes it feel like work.

I don’t want it to be like real life. How often do I get to kill a dragon in real life?

I have now also said multiple times that as long as you do not make all items account-bound gold will always be an option to get those items. So I don’t take that part away.

Tokens is the same. it’s farming for an item. However the token system is not bad as an extra. If you would have specific drops from bosses in dungeons that would be great and while you do that dungeon multiple times for that item in the meanwhile you at least get the tokens and so eventually get a full dungeon-set. So it’s a nice extra but not so fun as working directly for an item.

And maybe the fact that everybody can make money and then buy everything is what devaluates all those items.

Anyway with making items drop from specific content you do not take the gold-option away. At least not for the items that are not account-bound.

Xae Isareth.1364:

I would very much prefer DLCs. The problem with expansions is that they don’t allow the developers to adjust. They take years to make, so if the community turns out to hate an aspect of what’s planned, well, tough luck.

With DLCs, you can tune in to what people like.

I’m fine with the LS concept, apart from it being temporary. Expansions happen like every 2 years and give you what, a month or 2 of actual content? So if you add all the LS actual content up, it actually might be better than an expansion, IF we can go back to play them.

I personally don’t like DLC it always feels like a scam. But you could make a mix, sell an expansion but also sell parts of it separate. If you buy the expansion you get the whole package including all those separate DLC things.

an expansion does not have to take 2 years. One year should be enough. GW1 did it even faster but for GW2 it might indeed take a little longer. however if you focus on expansions as sale 1 year should be sufficient. You can still easily shift because the upcoming expansion is that always a year maybe max a yeah and a half away.

Taygus.4571:

Devata.6589:

They should completely focus on expansions. Dropping the cash-shop as that only hurts the game for many people.

Even if they would put out an expansion now they would likely get way less sales then what if they would have gotten of they did not alienate many of those people with the cash-shop focus.

And if they will continue doing that after an expansion that a possible second expansion would likely sell even worse. It’s really time for them to go back to a real B2P model throwing all the cash-shop stuff back into the game.

An expansion would be the perfect time to make that shift.

exapansions..with no cash up, will not bring in enough money to keep a game like this running..it’s cash shop or sub.
and I’ll take cash shop over sub any day.

---

Who made you believe that it’s cash-shop or sub?

Most non-mmo’s work with expansions or sequels and while they have lower running cost they usually have up to 3 years in-between releases (when talking about sequels) while a B2P MMO can release an expansion every year.

Also recently released numbers seem to proof differend.

Have a look at this chart: https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/151443/1q14_NCSoft.jpg

Some calculations can give an idea how much they would have earned if they went for the GW1 approach (at the beginning B2P only) by comparing the line compared to initial release over the same period.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/NcSoft-earnings-1Q-14/page/3#post4029793

While I would have say they should release an expansions every year (in GW1 they did it faster) it should have taken a little longer for the B2P model to overtake the cash-shop model in income (second expansion so 2 years after release) it does give a nice indication of how it could have worked with expansion-sales.

Oow and a good expansion can easily keep you busy for a year or longer. Temporary content only gives you the annoying feeling of ‘do it now or miss out forever’. When I play a game I want to have a good feeling not a annoying feeling. That is why I indeed also dislike sub-models who also put a timer above your head.

Jski.6180:

Devata.6589:

Jski.6180:

Well here a question i should ask why should end game “items” (not the end game it self because items in any game dose not equitable end game they are just what comes from the end game) be only obtainable though RNG from mob drops or from a added token system that is not apart of any other main token system such as GOLD and or MONEY for the game?

Working towards those items can be end-game. So because of that it’s part os the end-game. Having the activity without that reward can make the activity less interesting for people to do.

There may be many ways it can be obtainable. And some can simply be sold by NPC’s for gold. But you are playing a game and so for the best result the best stuff should drop from the highest bost basically.

Making everything a gold-grind is boring, buying it with money makes it effectively not part of the game. I buy a game to play it, not to be able to buy skins to put on my character.

Having one and the same item available in multiple ways devalues the item from a game-play element. It’s not anymore that drop you can get from that boss.

Besides, as long as you do not make it account-bound it will always be available also for gold on the TP. So for most options that will still be an option.

So most important is just that it’s in the game mainly as reward for playing the game basically. Yes some can be sold by npc’s but not so many should be a gold-grind and buying it with cash makes in no game / game-play.

That the thing its up to you how you get this gold if it was a pure token system then you would have to do one even and only that one event over and over to get the “items” you want. If you want to get gold the fastest way then your always going to chose that way but that is YOUR chose if you find that way boring then the items you want must be worth the time you put into it or your fooling your self into thinking they are.

That the way GW2 is made you chose your own path and its not forced on you how you should go about it yes there are faster ways of doing things but they tend to be more boring not because the events them self are boring but because ppl tend to over do them. I am sry your a boring person who can only think in terms of best gold out put but that is no excuse to take it out on others who can find fun in other less productive ways of doing things.

I am not a boring person who can only think in terms of best gold. Not sure where I said I did that. I said grinding gold for everything is boring. And so I do not do it.

I like to work towards an item. It makes content more fun. Every-time you do it the rush of getting the item. That is what is fun for me and many people. Doing some content and seeing you gold-number slowly go up is not fun. In addition it gives the item itself more value. It’s something you did especially that content for in stead of something many people might have just gotten by grinding gold with champ trains or whatever is most profitable at this time (I don’t know as that is not what I do). I simply am less interested in the items taking the game-play “working toward items” away.

I am also not sure what you mean with saying that I ‘take it out on others’? I did say, as long as items are not account bound those can still be both with gold so people who prefer to play that way can still do so.

I also said I did level an alt and do JP’s. That would then be “the way I like to play” in your explanation I guess (in reality ‘playing th way I want’ is working towards those items) but that will never get me the gold I would need for most stuff.

They should completely focus on expansions. Dropping the cash-shop as that only hurts the game for many people.

Even if they would put out an expansion now they would likely get way less sales then what if they would have gotten of they did not alienate many of those people with the cash-shop focus.

And if they will continue doing that after an expansion that a possible second expansion would likely sell even worse. It’s really time for them to go back to a real B2P model throwing all the cash-shop stuff back into the game.

An expansion would be the perfect time to make that shift.

Jski.6180:

Well here a question i should ask why should end game “items” (not the end game it self because items in any game dose not equitable end game they are just what comes from the end game) be only obtainable though RNG from mob drops or from a added token system that is not apart of any other main token system such as GOLD and or MONEY for the game?

Working towards those items can be end-game. So because of that it’s part os the end-game. Having the activity without that reward can make the activity less interesting for people to do.

There may be many ways it can be obtainable. And some can simply be sold by NPC’s for gold. But you are playing a game and so for the best result the best stuff should drop from the highest bost basically.

Making everything a gold-grind is boring, buying it with money makes it effectively not part of the game. I buy a game to play it, not to be able to buy skins to put on my character.

Having one and the same item available in multiple ways devalues the item from a game-play element. It’s not anymore that drop you can get from that boss.

Besides, as long as you do not make it account-bound it will always be available also for gold on the TP. So for most options that will still be an option.

So most important is just that it’s in the game mainly as reward for playing the game basically. Yes some can be sold by npc’s but not so many should be a gold-grind and buying it with cash makes in no game / game-play.

vincecontix.1264:

I?d say end game is WvW and fractals not getting skins. In wvw and fractals you are able to test your skills and use all the gear you have grinded. In what way is obtaining skins end game?

In an MMO there are many different type of players and everybody has it’s own preferred game-play and so it’s own preferred end-game.

In many mmo’s my end-game is usually going into the world and working towards goals like a min-collection, mounts, a cool skin, as ranger / hunter looking for rare pets, getting funny items and if available doing fun-crafts also by going into the world to get recipe’s and so on.

In GW2 it’s not btw as all those elements don’t exist or are just a boring gold-grind. Here it’s for me nor mainly doing stuff with the guild, leveling an alt, doing a JP or WvW but that has gotten old.

GW2 did focus a lot of skins (look for example at legendaries) so you could say that they mainly focus on those players. So end-content is different for everybody. Thats also why the whole P2W argument is strange because if something is P2W is also completely depended on the person. For somebody who likes to collect cosmetics, having cosmetics in the cash-shop is just as much P2W.

Beldin.5498:

We would have sooo much better games out there and also so many more rich people i think, if some of you guy build up your own MMO company and create the MMOs that give us all everlasting fun without having to pay anything for it.

C’mon guys .. make it happen

Some of us guys? So far I have seen nobody who said people would have not to pay for anything. In fact many people here ask for expansions (other want a mix of cash-shop / ingame) but nobody said everything should be free. Or maybe I missed a few post.

Who are you referring to? Who said everything should be free? Please in-light me.

lordkrall.7241:

phys.7689:

your theory might be correct, if it wasnt proven wrong by almost every game made in the last 30 years, which built a product, and then sold it.

Now im not saying cash shop isnt an option, or not their chosen way to monetize, however to claim that one cant make money from selling a finished product is really unlikely since that is how most products are created.

I mean essentially the complaint is, the gem shop philosophy in its current incarnation, is effecting the games evolution in ways that dont appeal to the consumer.

And how many of those games were MMOs that got very frequent updates?

You can’t really compare lets say an single player RPG game that is released and then more or less done, with an MMO that constantly changes. The RPG studio can more or less shut down after their game is released because they no longer need to do any major work on it, whilst an MMO still need to maintain a rather large developer group in order to keep the game going.

I have never claimed they can’t make money.
I have claimed that they most likely can’t make ENOUGH money. That is a rather major difference.

No. The non-mmo would just as well have to fix bugs and in fact you usually see at least one bigger (free) patch being released. But I agree those cost are a lower then on an running MMO.

Then there are server maintenance. Every game that has MP’s has those cost as well after release once again that might be higher for MMO’s.

That non-mmo game developer will however not shut down but start working on a sequel (a completely new game) that released about 3 years later.

The MMO can start building on an expansion that releases a year later. So those extra cost to maintain the game should not be a problem.

I have no problem if we would then not have the LS type of in-between. Maybe one bigger patch would be fine. They could also set up a very small story leading towards the next expansion (like how the LS started.. just some minor things did change). That should all the doable.

lordkrall.7241:

Andred.1087:

China release. Also, that expansion money will go a long way.

And between the first and second expansion?

You are aware that paying 300+ employees does tend to cost a rather massive amount of money, right?

Without ongoing income there won’t be a company to make expansions.

No company, except for about every non-mmo game-maker out there that is. They release an expansion or a squeal a few years later using the money they earned on the previous version of the game.

Yeah paying many employees does cost a lot of money but when done right selling a game / expansion will also earn a lot of money and that should cover the cost.

That model in fact made GW2 possible by applying it to GW1.

And then there are other incomes like merchandise and so on.

lordkrall.7241:

Andred.1087:

Expansions.

And what revenue should they use in order to pay for their employees between those expansions?

A part of the profit they earned from the original sales.

That how it works. You invest, you earn, you take part of that to invest again, earn again and so on.

VampyreJack.9183:

laokoko.7403:

farm gold -> trade gold for gem-> buy skin.

there’s your endgame.

LOL, yep, this is exactly what i do. I have 12 level 80’s and all i do every day for the past 2 months now is grind dungeons for gold, convert them to gems, buy skins, and the occasional wvw (wvw is boring the past couple of weeks now because we’re guaranteed 1st place this season….so why even try now)….

Problem is that many people do not consider that fun.

laokoko.7403:

lordkrall.7241:

laokoko.7403:

Only thing Anet care is how much money they make, and how many people still play their game.

they don’t really care if forum are spam with how shallow the game, as long as those person dont’ quit (yet).

we vote with our wallet and online time. that’s apparently what anet cares.

OMG a company cares about how much money they make! How dare they?!?

Is this really a surprise for anyone?
Companies are mainly made in order to make money. Of course making money will have a high priority.

How do you think the game would survive (and develop) if they didn’t have any money to spend on it?

What I’m getting at is if the game is so boring or sucks, why are you still playing the game.

The only thing Anet saw is you are still playing the game. They dont’ care if players think their game is trash. If the game is trash why are you still playing.

Question is not if they are playing but if they are paying.
I may hope that nobody that feels this way will be buying gems.

ArenaNet should be thankful that at least they still hang around hoping for better times. Many likely have already moved on for good.

Biohazard.7523:

lordkrall.7241:

How would you suggest they fill the gap in revenue from removing the skins though?

They can still add armor skins in gem store, and armor skins in game so you can earn them.
I dont see the problem… It doesnt mean that they need to quit putting skins in gem store..
Just add them in game..

That is one of the reasons why you should not play guild wars 2.

Would likely not work so well. Lets say they put different ones in the game and in the cash-shop. That would mean they would want to put the better looking (or more flashy) in the cash-shop, why else would people buy it. But that would just as much effect the game.

Then the complain is “I killed that dragon and was rewarded with a skin for it, however the guy that grind some gold / put in some cash did just buy one from the cash-shop and has a better one”. That takes much away from the game.

Putting the same in the game and in the cash-shop and in the game would also be a problem because then you devaluate the skin from a game-play standpoint. Same example with the boss. Well cool that you have that skin but was it’s not special because yeah it can drop from that dragon but you can just as easily buy it. And as that skin is the reward for your kill being able to buy it is like P2W).

They should have put everything in the game behind specific content. That would result in a better game, more people players, and so resulted in more expansion-sales what would eventually mean they generate more money over time.

So the whole idea that without the cash-shop they would not be able to make money is invalid.

lordkrall.7241:

laokoko.7403:

Only thing Anet care is how much money they make, and how many people still play their game.

they don’t really care if forum are spam with how shallow the game, as long as those person dont’ quit (yet).

we vote with our wallet and online time. that’s apparently what anet cares.

OMG a company cares about how much money they make! How dare they?!?

Is this really a surprise for anyone?
Companies are mainly made in order to make money. Of course making money will have a high priority.

How do you think the game would survive (and develop) if they didn’t have any money to spend on it?

Nobody here says they are not allowed to earn money. And looking at the numbers they would have made about the same amount of money if they would have released 1 expansions after a year (little less) and had no cash-shop (vs what they did now). The next expansion sale would have made the expansions-based model without a cash-shop more profitable then what they are doing now over the same period of time.

As far as we can see from the numbers we have that is.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/NcSoft-earnings-1Q-14/page/3#post4029793

Meehael.8240:

Leeto.1570:

Gear is content, there is alot of things to do but noone cares to do them cause there is no reward.
Add timer to 6 jumping puzzles, reward with tokens for doing it so people can buy lawless set for them… BOOM people kept busy for week +
But no instead they take lawless set and split it into pieces and sell each for 300 gems cause why sell 1 set for 800 gems if you can sell it for 1800 gems…

Yes, but where is money in that for anet? Ppl just use bandwidth.

Keeping people happy to make sure they buy the upcoming expansion.

lordkrall.7241:

How would you suggest they fill the gap in revenue from removing the skins though?

While they could keep a very limited cash-shop that only sells out of game items like a name-changer, sex-changer, race changer and that sort of stuff there would not really be a need for filling up the gap.

Have a look at your average non-mmo. They release a game.. then go build a sequel and 3 years later they release that. They simply use the money from the last sale to invest in the new one (fill up the gap) and still make a profit. Yes MMO’s do require some more running cost and maintenance but thats why they should release already after a year what should be doable because they are simply expanding the game, not building a total new one.

You always have gaps that is not really the problem.

In addition have a look at this chart: https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/151443/1q14_NCSoft.jpg that somebody posted in another forum. It does show that GW1 was able to get nice incomes for it’s expansions that where about equal to it’s initial sales.

100% agree with OP. By doing this they effectively turned the whole game into a boring gold-grind.

It’s a good example how the cash-shop focus does influences the game in a negative way.

Also have a look at these two threads:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/NcSoft-earnings-1Q-14/page/3#post4030557
and
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/A-focus-on-micro-transactions/first

They should have gone for focusing on expansion. Releasing an expansion at least every year / year and a half and should then have put all the items (skins, mini’s, haircuts, dyes and so on) in the game as specific drops from specific content. It would have been a better game and they would earn the money with the expansion-sales and would have kept a good name for themselves.

Astral Projections.7320:

Devata.6589:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

If the model so influences the game to encourage more people to exchange Gems for Gold, then I wonder why the exchange rate keeps rising. I would think it would drop, as there would be so many more Gems exchanged than Gold. Ah well, I’m sure there is some fact that will surface.

If it’s to low I think less people would be billing to buy gems for gold, especially with prices for items rising. If it’s to high there would be less need to buy it. So it’s an matter of finding the correct balance to get best sales. Thats what I would think at least.

It sounds like you are saying ANet is actively involved in the gems/gold prices. However John Smith says it is simply the ratio of gems versus gold in the currency exchange.

from this thread here
John Smith
“There seems to be some confusion:
The currency exchange has a supply of Gems and Gold.
If players are converting Gold to Gems, then the Amount of Gold player will receive for their gems goes up.
If players are converting Gems to Gold, then the amount of Gems players receive for Gold goes up.
The exchange rate changes based on the scarcity of each supply. You cannot inflate it, it’s an exchange rate. As players purchase in one direction, it entices purchases in the other direction.”

What I am mainly saying is that I do think that they benefit of a gold-grind as that would improve gem-sales. The way ‘John Smith’ describes it is also how I always hearth it. And it indeed might be a good way to get it balanced out nicely.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

If the model so influences the game to encourage more people to exchange Gems for Gold, then I wonder why the exchange rate keeps rising. I would think it would drop, as there would be so many more Gems exchanged than Gold. Ah well, I’m sure there is some fact that will surface.

If it’s to low I think less people would be billing to buy gems for gold, especially with prices for items rising. If it’s to high there would be less need to buy it. So it’s an matter of finding the correct balance to get best sales. Thats what I would think at least.

Aidan Savage.2078:

So is there anything worth reading in this thread (thus it can be left unlocked) or is there just the bickering that’s been going back and forth for the last 2.5 pages?

Yeah the chart is worth reading.

Behellagh.1468:

Devata.6589:

Well how about the fact that everything is a gold-grind. The fact that getting an mini or many skins are not behind specific content but in the cash-shop or / and require gold-grind? how about temporary stuff?

All stuff that might not bother you personally. The watchwork pick is not something that effected me personally. It all depends on what game-play you personally prefer the best.

It’s only a gold grind if you want to by Gem Shop items with gold. Gem Shop is a cash shop and they “finance” their RMT Gems to Gold with Gold to Gems.

If this was a subscription game players would have dumped some $240 (at the $12/month yearly discount) to $300 to play. Of course you all will counter that nobody would be still subscribing based on your dislike of LS content, TP meta game, etc.

`It’s only a gold grind if you want to by Gem Shop items with gold. Gem Shop is a cash shop and they “finance” their RMT Gems to Gold with Gold to Gems.`
If that was true it would be a gold-grind for the many people interested in those items, and if the those items where behind specific content it was not a gold-grind. So by putting it there is effectively influences the game at least for those people. That was indeed the point I was making.

However you forget one thing. Gems can be converted to gold so ArenaNet has a benefit of having a gold-grind. In the game it’s extremely hard to farm / work towards specific items or mats. Thats mainly because most stuff is in general world or map drops but not behind a specific content meaning you can’t directly work towards it. This mean that with most elements in the game grinding gold is still the best option. Want to get crafting to lvl 500 then grinding gold, buying the mats and leveling up is more efficient then in fact going into the game to collect everything you need directly.

Of course we can never proof it but is it really so strange to think this mechanic is so that gold gets so important as to increase gem-sales from people who convert it to gold? It’s all just marketing and answering the question “how do we get people to buy gems”.

So it go’s a little further then just directly those items in the cash-shop however still that is a part of it indeed.

Then there are examples as having no barber in the game. Something that will effect many RP / PvE players, or the picks with added stats that will hurt the farmers and so on.

I do not know if people would still be subscripted if they had expansions. I do think the content would have been different so you can’t compare that with the LS we have seen. However I do think that initial sales would be way lower and looking as other mmo’s there indeed has not been a single MMO after WoW (ten years ago) that has been successful (so lets say maintained it with success for more then 2 years) with a subscription. All mmo’s still successfully using subscriptions are WoW and pre-WoW. Of course I do not count the recent ones as they still have to proof being successful. So one could indeed think that there would not be that many subscribers left. However I was not comparing a cash-shop to a sub-model but I was comparing a cash-shop model to a true B2P model.

Ashen.2907:

phys.7689:

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

Ashen.2907:

Pretty much everything else is supposition…

To get an idea how GW2 might have work with expansions

Exactly so. Thank you for demonstrating my point for me.

If are not going to apply logic/reason/analysis to facts, they are pretty useless.

If one is going to invent scenarios to fit one’s personal bias regardless of what the facts actually are they are essentially useless as well.

You are talking about me.
I did not invent anything. I did give my idea’s based on logic. It was then somebody else who provided a chart that did seem to confirm what I was saying. Well in fact it topped it.

That you name my logic of “putting mini’s in the cash-shop hurts my game-play and so also other’s (not everybody’s) game-play and as I don’t see how it will benefit a lot of players game-play I have to call that a negative influence” biast because I do not have all data to proof that that is indeed accurate that is up to you. It makes sense and without data thats the best we can do. Data we later got seem to proof my overall statement. But you apparently still don´t want to see that pointing towards absolute numbers.

And then somebody accused me of tunnel vision.. lol.

IndigoSundown.5419:

phys.7689:

if they basically could make the same for each expansion, they would in fact make more money than they have with the cash shop.

Unfortunately, I believe that going forward what we’ll see is not either/or but both/and. Box plus store. Box plus sub plus store. Box plus expansions plus store. Even box plus expansion plus sub plus store.

Why? Just look at the GW2 forums. Over the last month we’ve seen posts suggesting the players pay extra for content, dueling or even bug fixes. One might argue that all of these game additions were once considered part of the initial purchase, part of the sub, or part of an expansion box fee. However, people want what they want, they get impatient and want to throw money at the company to get what they want fast. As long as consumers are willing to pay extra for what was once part of the product or service, companies will be more than happy to let them — or even entice them. I believe it’s only a matter of time.

As phys stated (and I did before) your explanation about how it’s more successful because of it’s model is inaccurate.

In this last statement you forget that because of the fact that they use the cash-shop te generate income they end up with another product. So even when they do an expansion it’s not garanteed to make as much sales as if they would not do so.

Of course it’s once again a what if because there is no GW2 expansion yet. After GW2 would have released to expansion the best you could do it set it against GW1 expansion sales.

I do believe that because of the way the cash-shop influences the game it will result in less expansions sales… IF they don’t make a change. Now if Anet was to say “ok with the introduction of the new expansion we are going fully B2P throwing everything in the game” I do think that would be a big difference. However like said before there will be people who left GW2 because they disliked the game but don’t know it’s indirectly because of a cash-shop focus. They might not come back anyway.

There is no arguing that is influences the game (having stuff in the cash-shop that would else be in the game simply is a influence). One could only debate how much and in what way it would influence it.

The numbers show that with GW1 after 1,5 year 110% of the number of initial buyers was willing to buy an expansion. For now we don’t know how many would buy a GW2 expansion.

WoodenPatatoes also added some feedback: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98YSue1OCG8&list=UUYUY9_i44IDNOs_Ja815mlA

In many video’s you hear him making negative remarks about elements of the game but this is the first time I really hear him mad. I do know the feeling.