Guild Wars 2

Dafomen.7892:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Dark Jackson.3417:

- It’s all about : What majority wants..

And this is what I cannot fully fathom – how can so many players enjoy games that sell them ‘content’ that is not only cheap (read: superficial&recycled) and relies on terrible game mechanics (zerging, mass events), but often enough require additional rl payments for something that is only temporary – what does that tell about those players?

Please, don’t give me the ‘casual’ argument. Being a casual player doesn’t and shouldn’t translate to ‘we welcome any rotten tomatos and potatoes thrown at us with open arms’. How can people be SO lacking in the sound judgement department – so easily tricked – that they will reluctantly stick to what devolved into little more than a P2P in sheep’s clothing is seriously beyond me.
Why do people dish out money for mediocre content in a mediocre game, which is ridden with spam, superficial story, temporary features, lag, recycled content, and has a minigame called pvp, and a mish&mash of pve&pvp that is wvw?

I remain absolutely b.a.f.f.l.e.d. and eagerly await the many fanboys in this thread to perhaps try shedding some light on their thought process on this phenomenom (yea, not happening). I think it’d make most interesting a subject to study.

Its called Behavioral Conditioning

Its not a conspiracy, its the result after decades of ‘western’ mass media, commercial and government education.

Basically they are fullfilling their designated role as consumers, while being very limited in their critical thinking abilities and take over and retell agruments from that company, suggesting its them critically thinking but in fact they are just repeating what that company and media branded into their minds.

Just look at the “hype” phaenomena. There, BC is renamed to PR, but the goal remains the same and the results speak for themselves.

Superficial and willing to spend money, thats how most companies want and like their cough ….. “customers”.

Of course, Anet is the exception here ….

So you do something you don’t really like and you do it on a daily basis so you can earn a currency that you can later spend on an item you might like.

Am I describing somebody playing a game here or somebody with a real bad job?

You tell me.

Andred.1087:

Devata.6589:

Azrael.4960:

It’s basically a way to get you to buy BL keys instead of buying the skins directly. Players were given the opportunity to get the skins for a very long time. Sclerites dated from the other Southsun Cove event series from last year after all. It’s like any business. You don’t keep a stock of dated merchandise forever, you need to continually revamp your merchandise to keep people buying stuff.

Granted, this stuff is virtual but the concept holds the same

No it doesn’t because the reason you don’t keep a stock of dated merchandise is because it’s not useful anymore (outdated) and because the room cost money and so can better be used for other stuff that does sell.

Both are not true for this.

It’s more the ACTION!!! Only now!!! sort of stuff where you compare this with.

Only problem is that people want to play a game, not a commercial.

Do those ACTIONS just when selling expansions.

It’s the classic MMO cash shop scheme. Players have been conditioned to believe Anet is different than the other MMO developers, but they’re really not. They avoided some of the more obvious pitfalls of the cash shop, but in the end, it’s still all about them getting more money, and leaving the items in the shop indefinitely doesn’t sell them as much as putting a deadline on them does. And they will always be coming out with new stuff people will want, so they really lose nothing for taking stuff away.

Biggest problem here is that I signed up for a B2P game.. You know a game that focuses on selling expansions in stead of focusing on the cash-shop. All those items in the cash-shop should be in the game providing game-play. And then we pay for it by buying expansions.

Max Lexandre.6279:

I’m actually not playing much anymore, the lack of new content kills me so i’m playing only for the daily now.
:(

I stopped doing dailies (on a daily base) months ago. Not sure why people keep doing that.

nekretaal.6485:

They will be back I’m sure.

I hope so to and the annual stuff so far all did return I think. But you do have this problem for much of the temporary LS stuff. And that so far did not return. (to stay forever)

Azrael.4960:

It’s basically a way to get you to buy BL keys instead of buying the skins directly. Players were given the opportunity to get the skins for a very long time. Sclerites dated from the other Southsun Cove event series from last year after all. It’s like any business. You don’t keep a stock of dated merchandise forever, you need to continually revamp your merchandise to keep people buying stuff.

Granted, this stuff is virtual but the concept holds the same

No it doesn’t because the reason you don’t keep a stock of dated merchandise is because it’s not useful anymore (outdated) and because the room cost money and so can better be used for other stuff that does sell.

Both are not true for this.

It’s more the ACTION!!! Only now!!! sort of stuff where you compare this with.

Only problem is that people want to play a game, not a commercial.

Do those ACTIONS just when selling expansions.

Not sure if they removed any skins lately but see my answer more in the general sense.

Maybe the plan is to get you to next time better make sure you do get the keys before they are gone. Even if that means you need to buy gems for it. You do need to have that feeling of limited time availability. Buy it now our miss out forever.

For as long as they make money with cash-shop in stead of expansions they will to try to get you to buy items.

Palador.2170:

I wouldn’t count on it happening.

ANet seems to have a very strong (and growing) disconnect from what a lot of players want in the game to make the experience more enjoyable. They keep focusing and refocusing on a few aspects that they consider important, without grasping that the “unimportant” parts are important to us.

It’s like a sports car. Imagine having one made just for you by some auto company. It’s fairly good, though the paint job’s a bit questionable. You drive it for a bit, and tell them that it’s fast, though it’s not the fastest, and the seat could be better. They take it in, and improve the speed. You try it for a while, and tell them that it’s even better now, though you’d like the seat looked at. And the hot pink trim kind of detracts from the metallic red paint job.

Thus begins a pattern of you taking it in for improvements, and they improve the speed, the handling, and the braking. Meanwhile, you can’t enjoy the (technically superior) car due to the discomfort of driving it. You ask and beg about the seat being improved, and maybe that paint job, but they don’t seem to hear you. And then, one day, you pick it up to discover that they’ve removed the seat entirely to make the car lighter for more speed, and fixed the uneven paint job by painting the whole thing puke green.

This is ANet, so focused on building a technically superior game that they can’t grasp the other issues. Things like proper adjustment of town clothes or guild halls? Those are “other issues”.

“technically superior game”? There are games with collision detection that’s more advanced, there are games with more advanced graphical settings (GW2 is just DX9) there are games who do have a big open seamless world.

I think you mean they try to be different or innovative or focus on things like the LS?

Dark Jackson.3417:

More Instanced stuff ( 5 man )

Thats not what Arenanet wants.
Atleast thats what they are projecting on us.
Let’s be more direct or be deeper about it.

They are just focused on open world rather than instance, so it’s different…
So basicly break what made guild wars 1, in Theory ?
I’m saying the game is adventure less.. and Guild wars is a Team/Guild adventure.
For them ? It’s just a name… Guild wars.. name doesn’t matter.

Another thing is many people : Dont want 5-man elite instancing

Why you’d say ?

-Some people are not good in the game, or they just play on weekends and they just want to be able to do everything without gear check or whatever.
-Like any MMO there is always way more Casual than Elite players.

-Arenanet are focused on Casual players, indeed and why would they care if 100-200 hardcores players leave the game if they can keep thousand of casual players who just wanna Zerg and stuff.

- It’s all about : What majority wants..

In my opinion, if there wasn’t any hardcore player in this game.
This game would be played on facebook.

Another question would be how many casuals are anti-cash shops?

But there another certain things, how many Guild wars fans are proud to invest into something they like.

Another thing when guild wars 2 launched there was alot of people for the 3 very 1st months.
-How many never logged back for years ?
- What did they disliked ?
- Where are they now ?
In my opinion they are alternating between alot of mmo’s so nothing is really lost.
As i told you before. Something is missing.

I am not sure why you say the 5 man dungeons are to hardcore. They are to easy not to hardcore.
Remember Molten Facility and the pirate dungeon. Those where very popular back then. Multiple reasons, not to long, not to short, nice rewards could drop and nice mechanics but also way more challenging then most dungeons.

Another question is what is a casual? Is it defined by if you like easy vs hard content? (then I am hardcore I think) or if they like the best stats vs skins and other fluff (then I am a casual I guess) or how many hours they play (then I am average I think)?

Can casuals not be in guilds? Of course they can then why would raids not be interesting for ’ casuals’? Because it’s to hard or because they would need to grind gear for it? And if they don’t need to grind gear for it what then?

I think dungeons are not to hardcore but could use some more spice or teamwork. That would require more roles.. no I am not necessarily talking about the holy trinity. There can be many roles. See pokemon for example. Every pokemon has 2 roles I think. Fire is strong against ice, water is strong against stone and so on. You can make a minions role (so classes who have minions or pets or clones) and the portal role (mesmer) and the invisibility role (thief) and really give bosses AI that will require you to use them.

Example, one boss teleports the whole group to one place where they will be stuck for 10 sec and will then drop down hell on that area killing everybody. How to get out of that situation.. Shield-roles could come to help there or portal roles if they placed a portal just before the boss ported everybody in that trap then the portal guy places a second portal and everybody teleports to safety.

So make more roles, make dungeons harder and in that way you have more teamwork and more interesting fight. In addition put in dungeon and boss specific rewards. I think many types of players will like that. Including many ‘casual’ players.

Dark Jackson.3417:

-Open world

Came to admit a full Open world cant make you feel worthy or Heroic.
a Hero alongs 150 is he still a hero ?.
Initinally guild wars 1 was Fully instanced, the zone, the missions ( past personal story ) the dungeons, pvp.
Open world are instanced zone of around 150-200 players. Zones are excellent has they are right here and its a future plus for the future living world.

A little comeback of the guild wars origine. You were a hero from ascalon, all of you heroes of ascalons. Witch by doing your quest, your path along the map could go with mercenaries with who you were sharing your looted golds. During harder times, human team work was better than using those mercenaries and could lead your mission much more sucessfull. And later you could customise your own heroes aka building your own teams.

To conclude that full human teams would lead better results ‘’ More brains are better than just one’’ And to say that we dont need heroes since it’s an open world and during larger events the masse of players is there.

All this to say that in the guild wars story, team work is imperativly needed, a great team work for the best results. Team work that with ’’Zerging’’ and also masse events ( teq + 3 headed worm ) cannot be felt.
( You feel like a tagger trying to tag over everyone. Fighting for credits. )

Is guild wars team work dieing ?
Is being in a team dieing ?
Or does massive events are too massive ?

Because when you are in a dungeon and have a team, that team compose of either your guild members or LFG tool players. They are still , Tyrian heroes.

Leading to : Do you feel you make a difference in a Zerg ?

Zerging who is now more than common by, Champions run, WvW, PvP Team deathmatch, Massive event, Guild missions.

If you feel like zerging is the new guild wars 2 gameplay, you are not wrong yet.
But it wasn’t initially. And i believe this is one mistake we fell in. With time, deeper every month. More will be explained on Zerging later, keep reading.

One of the main reason I did not like GW1 was because it was not one big open world and I would even prefer it if they make GW2 even more of an open world by making seamless zones.

You really want that hero feeling then you can put in the more traditional quest with linked to it a personal story. You complete it once so it’s your story. However maybe we should stop the idea of being hero’s and in stead being explorers who end up in a lot of situations, including heroic situations. That is how I have always felt in any mmo and that’s fine.

Kalarchis.8635:

spritefire.5234:

It’s ready when it’s ready.
I don’t know why people feel so entitled to have something new to do.

For me personally, it’s because I’m a GW1 player. I’ve been with this series since a couple months after GW1 released. I’ve seen it through nearly every single update, every iteration and evolution of the game. I’m coming up on nine years of play.

We’re close to two years since GW2 release. Two years into GW1, we already had Factions and Nightfall. That’s two new continents, four new classes, two new skillsets for all classes, new PvP modes, two entirely new stories, multiple elite dungeons, and bunches of other things. These were enormous, gorgeous, and fully engaging expansions. I am seriously invested in Cantha and Elona, significantly more so than I am Tyria. I have very deep attachments to those places and the peoples that I met there.

When GW2 released, I assumed (as many did) that things would go like the first game. First release is Tyria, then a year or so later we’d get a Cantha expansion, then Elona. Or maybe reverse order. Now we’re about to hit two years and we’re just now getting to new zones. Don’t get me wrong; I have a lot of attachments to Maguuma as well and I’m happy that we’re headed back there. But I feel like this should have happened six months to a year ago.

I know this team. I know what they’re capable of. At least, I thought I did. But release after release, I’m more and more disappointed. The volume of content compared to the first game is just not on par. Instead of content previews we get maybe a paragraph and thirty second teaser videos. It’s all been building to a steady disillusionment in myself and others, and the Megaserver turmoil + the lack of any real communication with the devs right now are seriously exacerbating the problem.

So many of us are reaching tipping points. All we really want is for the devs to drop all this “hint and hype” nonsense and give us a straight up, real conversation about permanent, expansive new content in the future of the game. They stated a while back that they intended to deliver an expansion’s worth of content, but that they weren’t sure how to go about doing it. Well, I think they’ve had enough time to decide. It’s time to let us know what’s up. Hopefully the Festival release next week is the start of that happening.

While not a veteran GW1 player I have know about GW1 and the way they released content from the beginning. So when GW2 released and more important when they announced it would also be B2P I also did expect similar releases as you. Not that we would go to Elona or Cantha necessarily but an expansion every year to year and a half max. That would also mean no negative influence from a cash-shop focus. I mean what is more fun, having a barber in the game where you can cut your hair for a few silver or having to get a haircut kit from the cash-shop (that gold-2-gem rate cost a lot of gold), or having mini’s drop in the world.. a dolyac drops a mini dolyac, a dungeon boss can drop another special mini and so on.
Without focusing on expansions it makes sense they have to earn money this way but it does not do the game any good.

Maxite.6102:

How dare ANet slow down our free content. Those greedy jerks. If they weren’t holding this gun to my head, then by golly I’d go play <NextHypedMMO> right now and never not buy gems ever again. Harrumph.

If you did read the thread many people here would love an expansions.. That means paying for an expansion. And of-course everybody did pay for the game itself. So no it’s not a cry for more free content. That does not even exist.

If everybody would just jump to any next hyped MMO then people where also not in this forum as there have been two big hyped games released between the release of GW2 and now. (FF and ESO) I should say there is one upcoming MMO that I am interested in checking out (No it does not start with a W) and I have never and will never buy gems as with that I would only support the cash-shop focus what I am so against and what is part to blame for the type of content we did get (and so many people disliked). I am willing to pay for content if only they would release some good high quality (and fully ingame) content in the form of an expansion so I could pay for it.

Not asking for ‘free’ content here.

spritefire.5234:

It’s ready when it’s ready.
I don’t know why people feel so entitled to have something new to do. Maybe it’s because after hitting lvl 80 in the first few weeks two years ago the world now feels tiny and you feel confined and seeing/doing the same stuff over again isn’t your thing, but hey.. it’s an MMO. It’s always going to be repetitive. New content when it comes out will be completed and they everyone will be back to the same old boring cycle.
If you want new things, go find something creative to do like go create some music, create 3d models in blender etc.. find something where you are not limited by what’s given to you, but what your mind limits you to do.
This game isn’t meant for hardcore MMO players, it’s for the super casual.. just like mario cart.. and you don’t hear people complain to Nintendo asking for new mario cart maps.

Would the super casual not be one of the groups that also would like to play for fluff like mini’s? However getting a mini is not so much being achieved by doing dungeon x of mini y, it’s grinding gold or buying it with cash. So effectively taking away the game-play for those casual and everybody else who like that sort of stuff. That is also the type of content that can keep you busy for a year / 2 years. Before you collected them all (in the world). Feel free to replace mini’s by dyes, skins, mounts and so on.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devata.6589:

SkylightMoon.1980:

Season 2 should be Anet’s chance to redeem the mistakes they made in Season 1 aka too much temporary content. Last season was 80% temporary, 20% permanent. Don’t believe me? Look at how much actual permanent content is in this game. Its a joke. Those temp/perm ratio’s should be switched.

SAB should be permanent and so should the queens gauntlet. These other festivals and what not are annual activities.

No offense but Season 2 should not be Anet’s chance to redeem the mistake, the second half of season 1 should. Since the beginning (back when releases where once a month) these complains about temporary content, and grindy content (lists of achievements to complete) have been there.

Colin first said.. well we go to two weeks but also have bigger teams so the content will become better. In fact it got worse because the list of temporary stuff got bigger and there was a shorter time before the next patch was there. Exactly that what so many people disliked. Then after complains kept poring in he did say we would see more permanent content. What we did get where some additions like the JP and the World boss and some cosmetic changes that where permanent but the LS stuff itself was still just temporary.

Of course you can always say ‘well the next time’ but in all honestly, the ‘time to get it right’ was the second half of season 1, not season 2.

The CDI threads concerning the LW took place late in 2013, long after the second half of LS S1 had begun, and probably too late to have a lot of influence on the rest of S1, which ended in March, 2014. With four teams, development begins far in advance of current releases. Complain all you want about the content offerings, but when discussing overall management of the program, please consider the realities of content development.

Like I said, those complains where well known long before. Colin addressed some of them in the same live-stream where he announced / talked about going for two weeks and upping the teams working on the LS.

That means that most of the content we did see was build after those complains where known at ArenaNet.

So that information was available long before the CDI thread and really the CDI thread is just one thread where a few people contribute to so while it’s very good it’s there it’s not the only source. As if Anet never god input before the CDI or outside of the CDI thread.

Let me also state that I am not sure who is to ‘blame’ (wrong word but can’t find a better one) for the current road Anet is taking.

Are all developers happy with this road or are they indeed agreeing with me (and many people here)? Even is they do they obviously can’t come here and say “yeah we totally agree”.

At release some things where already to much cash-shop. Mini’s in the cash-shop and soul-bound dyes for example. However I do know that the dyes where first mend to be the way they now are. Somewhere during development that changed. (I also know when but threads with links to more information about that tent to get closed so I leave that out of here.)

I have also heard that Anet started basically by Blizz WoW developers that where not happy with the payment model Blizz wanted for WoW. Then they came up with the B2P model and because of that GW1 was for a long time the big alternative for many people. If that story is true I can’t imagine those people are happy with it’s current model. GW2 is not anymore the alternative for the other.. it’s just in there with the F2P games.

Also look at the first big event.. Karka invasion. Yeah there where problems, people got Dc’t the event took a little long and many people missed it because of different time-zones. But overall the event was awesome. One of the best GW2 memories I have. Was maybe that what Anet envisioned as a living world and maybe back when many of them still did have a real B2P model as idea? Before release they did say we where going to get expansions. Later that became ‘no need for expansions if we do this LS correct’. Maybe some of the monetize people decided that this LS was the way to generate income instead of expansions and so the events turned from Karka invasion like events of what we maybe should only have 1 or 2 in-between expansions to the LS we have now?

If that is the case at least those people now have some leverage with the upcoming MMO releases and seeing how the ‘soul-bound dye system obviously did not have the effect the monetize people wanted’. Only problem still are the gem-sales, but as soon as that would drop the people that do want a real B2P model within the company might have the leverage they need. Question then is if it’s not already to late.

WasAGuest.4973:

I think the best description I have heard for the LS was this:

“It’s a playable commercial” meant to encourage sales from the Gem Shop.

I agree with that.
The LS and it’s “content” (drops, items, shineys etc) was either behind horrid grind and massive time sink/investment or a tortuous RNG system meant to discourage playing the game and rather open the wallet and simply buy in to enjoy the current theme of the LS – at least, IMO as that’s what I experienced with the LS.

Seeing this “Festival” return makes me wonder; will we see earn-able content that is FUN to get? Or will it be a massive grind and/or based off crappy RNG? Will we be able to partake in said festivities and walk away with some of the no doubt Limited Time offerings without having to hit the Gem Store? —- If not, then this is again fitting to the description of the players “Playing a commercial” – again, IMO.
This is opposite of how GW1 was pre-cash shop too. Grabbing a few friends and running through some fun, light hearted content and walking away with that seasons goodies was a blast. I never felt I had to “Work to enjoy” the festival, and nor did I feel I had to “Buy in” to have a good time.

I’m guessing though, that’s it will be more of the same old same old here. Festival is ON! YAY! New skins in Gem Shop this week only! Everyone is happy… not.

In the spirit of fairness; here’s how you monetize a festival. You hold the festival and make ALL items easily obtainable IN game. Not through grind, not through RNG, but through IN game activities. Then, next year when the festival is up again, you put up last years items IN the Gem Shop for those that either missed out on last years items or simply didn’t, at the time, want them.
With that, you have a happy player base that is enjoying the content without feeling they are being nickle and dimed WHILE providing a service to those that missed out on last years events. You also now show you have your eyes set on long term stability vs short term gains. — as always though, IMO.

That is indeed a good description. I also say it’s mainly there to have an excuse for offering temporary available cash-shop stuff. Or like you say it “open the wallet and simply buy in to enjoy the current theme of the LS”. And even if the LS would be used to implement real expansion-like content or more permanent stuff, this would stay as long as Anet generates it’s income with the cash-shop.

Thats why I as for them to generate money with expansions, as a real B2P game should do.

SkylightMoon.1980:

Season 2 should be Anet’s chance to redeem the mistakes they made in Season 1 aka too much temporary content. Last season was 80% temporary, 20% permanent. Don’t believe me? Look at how much actual permanent content is in this game. Its a joke. Those temp/perm ratio’s should be switched.

SAB should be permanent and so should the queens gauntlet. These other festivals and what not are annual activities.

No offense but Season 2 should not be Anet’s chance to redeem the mistake, the second half of season 1 should. Since the beginning (back when releases where once a month) these complains about temporary content, and grindy content (lists of achievements to complete) have been there.

Colin first said.. well we go to two weeks but also have bigger teams so the content will become better. In fact it got worse because the list of temporary stuff got bigger and there was a shorter time before the next patch was there. Exactly that what so many people disliked. Then after complains kept poring in he did say we would see more permanent content. What we did get where some additions like the JP and the World boss and some cosmetic changes that where permanent but the LS stuff itself was still just temporary.

Of course you can always say ‘well the next time’ but in all honestly, the ‘time to get it right’ was the second half of season 1, not season 2.

Besides that I have never been a big fan of the LS since the beginning. I do believe that it is possible to release the stuff temporary, simply make the story so that the event has no activities and rewards linked to it but what is left has. I also believe they could kitten expansion-like content in the LS like races and maps. To be honest I am surprised they didn’t because they promised they would.

Biggest problem I would still have even if they did all these things is that if they release it like that it means there main focus on generating income would still be the cash-shop. And a focus on that keeps having it negative side-effects. Collecting mini’s is not a game-play element but a gold-grind, farming things is not really an option, everything is a gold grind because heey you can buy gold with gems, no barber in the shop because they want to sell haircut kits and so on.

I rather have them releasing that sort of stuff in expansions so it can all be in the game and they don’t have to focus on the cash-shop to generate income.

Maybe with the upcoming MMO’s releases that compare with GW2 we might see a change there. They offer new classes and races for people who got tired of GW’s current classes and races, they offer open world PvP, raids, housing, mounts, sandbox elements, guild-halls and so on. Many of the things you have seen people asking for in those forums for a long time. Meaning that Anet almost must do something with that if it does not want to lose many players to those games.

Behellagh.1468:

Blude.6812:

lordkrall.7241:

And here we have it: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/prepare-for-the-festival-of-the-four-winds/

Happy now? ^^

Not really—seems to be another recycle.

What a surprise. Annual events occur annually.

[sarcasm]

What? How dare they! Only new permanent content is true content. We demand all annual events to occur at all times! Wintersday, Halloween, Dragon Bash, the Bazaar everything should occur at all times.

[/sarcasm]

Oow annual events are fine. Only complain about that is that parts where temporary, better add new stuff (like with Halloween and Wintersday just add events, don’t remove stuff and decorate also the rest of the world, not only LA). But except for that I am fine with annual events. It however is not the added new permanent content many people are asking for in this thread.

lordkrall.7241:

Blude.6812:

Not really—seems to be another recycle.

And yet it is something people have wanted since last time it was around.

And to be fair the thread seems to be more about the silence and lack of updates, and now we got updates and thus most people should be happy.

Did you really read the thread? It’s mainly about some new permanent content. So expansions and that sort (and how it should / could be implemented). It’s not about the next iteration of temporary content known as the LS. And even yearly returning events in GW2 are half temporary because half of the activities and rewards do not return.. At least they didn’t for Halloween and Wintersday. Still I am happy it’s not yet LS S2 as that may stay away for as long as possible. Don’t want the feeling of ‘need to be done now or else you’ll lose out forever’.
In a way Anet was able to combine the worse effects of sub-based games (timer over your head.. play now you did pay for it) and the cash-shop focus from F2P games.

Just would like a nice good expansion or at lease expansion-like content. But not like the ‘expansion-like’ Anet definition content we already got before. Preferably just an expansion because even if they would put that content in the LS you would still see many negative side-effects from the fact that they need to generate the money for that content with the cash-shop. With an expansion there is at least no need for that.

Frostfang.5109:

If u take a look at the minis in u’r bank. There is a “mysterious Dragon” (or something similar – looks like an asian dragon) there that havn’t been released yet. If u do the math on the latest minis release dates of the minis, one can figure that there could be release of new content or information on new content in two weeks.

That is my speculation at least….

Probably dragon-bash.

Galen Grey.4709:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Galen Grey.4709:

You’re attributing stuff to me I never said. For example I never said you can remove reward any you’ll be fine. I merely said reward cannot change the state of content like some suggested.

In short cause this is getting too long what you need to show is how introducing a reward can make content that’s boring suddenly become exciting again (the content itself not the fun that is to be had in opening up said reward) I just don’t think it does in any scenario.

I’ve seen no one claiming you said, “You can remove reward and you’ll be fine.” The claim was that you said rewards don’t make content fun. You’re apparently still claiming this, unless, “Reward cannot change the state of content” means something else. Reward does not change the “state” of content, whatever that is.

Reward can change the way the content is experienced, though. I’ve already described how reward can facilitate a fun experience, and that the process of completing content consists of before-during-after, with the whole generating the fun experience. I’ve given examples. You’re postulating that the parts of an experience can be separated from the perspective of every individual who could undergo a given experience. The burden of proof is on you, though we’re probably getting way off-topic.

Okey lets forget psychology for a little while.

let me come up with a task most people will most likely find boring say killing 1 million dolyaks. now lets come up with the best reward I can think of… say a token that can be exchanged for any item in the game including a legendary. Do you really believe now some people will have the time of their life killing dolyaks? Cause I am sure some will endure it and go through it but i am also sure in this fictitious scenario we’d see tons of posts about swinging swords and not one suggesting they do the same thing but this time with moa cause they really had fun going after the dolyaks.

“say a token that can be exchanged for any item in the game including a legendary”
Specific reward for specific content remember, not currency. And ‘you have to kill it 1 million times’ is exactly the same as the grinding gold.. You see it slowly go up plus 1 million is a little (extremely) over the top I think’ on the other hand that number is also depended on how much you would find the mobs.

Lets say there is one dolyak mount available (many mounts but one dolyak) and it can only drop from dolyak who are available or farmable in a specific area in PvE. Only those dolyaks can drop that mount with a drop-rate of 1 / 5000. So then the task is farming dolyaks. Pretty boring. And yes I think the activity will become more fun for many people simply because of rush that you know it might drop on the next dolyak you kill.

Galen Grey.4709:

Ashen.2907:

Galen Grey.4709:

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Galen Grey.4709:

Galen Grey.4709:

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Okey fair enough..so lets make this really simple. You did say " I experienced plenty of situations where I enjoyed a task that would have been boring without the associated rewards. I have interacted with others whose experience was comparable to mine." Now you never stated how many others you were talking about so its up to you to come up with how common this phenomena is in your opinion. Lets say for the sake of argument its extremely uncommon That would still imply it happens a few times. So lets take whats arguably the most sought after reward in Gw2 Ascended gear (not saying it is the best reward only that because of the feedback and how much uproar it caused its clearly one of the most sought after rewards. Not my opinion but the forums opinion. And just so there is no misunderstand and you dont think I am projecting my believes on others as usual please be aware I dont care about ascended gear at all. I only have 3 pieces which I got a couple of months ago just to help some guildies with fractals. Anyhow back on subject. If what you’re saying is true the most sought after reward should at least have some people who are happy with the content they have to play in order to get that reward. Now one can find a ton of posts against said content. All I am asking you to do is find 1 that defends the content as is.

Now keep in mind like you correctly say people like all sorts of content so there are people who naturally like the content irrespective of the reward. Yet I personally never seen 1 single post defending the content as is. Even people who defend Ascended gear do so by providing alternative strategies (such as dont farm but play what content you enjoy and you’ll ultimately get enough to get your ascended gear)

how would you explain that if in deed the reward makes content fun?

Ashen.2907:

Galen Grey.4709:

And again there is a catch 22, grind requires boredom, if the content is engaging people will not consider it grindy.

Of course what is engaging to one person might very well be boring to another. Grind, fun, engaging, boring, etc are all completely subjective.

What content feels grindy / repetitive / fun / engaging / boring is subjective
what grindy / repetitive / fun / engaging and boring mean is not.

First of all the ascended example is likely the worse one as it’s an item many people did not want in the game. People did not want a tier-grind. But lets forget that for a moment.

This whole discussion started with placing specific rewards behind specific content. Ascended stuff is not a specific reward behind specific content. Best you can do to get it as a reward for doing content is doing fractals (what is already not specific because you get just thrown in a random game) and then there is a possibility some ascended thing drops (nothing specific).

It’s not like, do JP x and there it is possible that ascended item Y drops. No, it are general drops. Or the other option is grinding gold to level your craft to 500 and then grind gold for mats, farm mats and with time-gated limitations you can then make the item you want.

So this is not the specific rewards for specific content we where talking about. Plus it are items people do not want in the game.

Another thing is that the rewards need to feel special, Better said.. you should want the reward. Special or rare being one of the criteria depending on the person, looks can be another.

Oow and yes it’s possible to have content that is fun just for the content (for me that are JP’s, but that won’t get me an ascended set). Still specific rewards would make that specific content even more fun. The ’ play what you want’ was one of the reason why we had the discussion if you remember. Y:’ Play the way you want’ Me:‘I like to hunt down rewards, that’s how I like to play that’ s what it makes the content fun’ Y:‘rewards don’t make content fun.’

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

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are you sure whats fun there is picking the numbers ? Again if you dont win will you look back and say ohh boy I didnt win but I sure had fun picking the numbers! In a lottery all the joy and excitement one gets is simply the anticipation of getting the reward not the activity itself. In fact in my observation its often frustrating picking the numbers which is why websites like random.org have sections dedicated to lotteries so they come up with the numbers for you. This is especially true if you pool with other people. I did it several times, I would imagine most people did it at some point in time. In anycase its generally people trying to offload the number picking to someone else rather then trying to make sure they’re the ones to pick the numbers simply because they’re not finding the activity itself fun they only care about the reward.

A better argument would be checking your numbers with the winning numbers now everyone wants to do that and that might indeed prove you right as I can see people who even lost actually saying they had fun checking the numbers. that being said I do think its a bit tricky to say conclusively just because checking the numbers is basically touching with the reward, there is the rush of being so close to the reward and psychologically on a subconscious level what we know is we’re getting a rush you cant tell whats really causing the rush.

You are not picking the number yourself. You are waiting for somebody else to pick the number. And that is fun because there is tension.. will you win (that reward!) or will some other person win (that reward). Take that reward out of the equation and no there really is no fun any-more.

“In a lottery all the joy and excitement one gets is simply the anticipation of getting the reward not the activity itself.” So you have an activity that by itself is not great. However because of the anticipation of getting the reward it becomes excited. There you go. That is what I (and some others here) are saying. And when you combine the both it can get even better.

“because they’re not finding the activity itself fun they only care about the reward.” but still you have fun doing it because of the excited for the reward.

So a good reward can increase the fun on an activity and might even get you excited while doing an activity that by itself is boring.. Like grinding one type of mobs for a drop (to go back to the example this all started with).

Now we are back where we stared. “there is the rush of being so close to the reward and psychologically on a subconscious level what we know is we’re getting a rush” Every time you kill that mob or do that dungeon or whatever there is that rush and every time you do it again there is another.. or mathematically a bigger change it will drop.

While with money (or any other currency like a list of achievements) you simply see it’s going up slowly and then you buy it so no excitement or rush whatsoever, with specific rewards this rush, this tension this excitement is added to any activity. To boring activities and to nice activities. Of course that’s only if you are going for the reward but that’s how I like to play. Working toward goals and that goal is then the reward. That can be mini’s, mounts, skins whatever. Not grinding gold (or another currency) to buy my ‘goal’.

In addition it adds value to the reward. You did this work, most people where not willing to do that so they do not have it but you where rewarded for you efforts and so now are one of those who has that skin / mini / mount whatever.

And for those who prefer to grind gold that’s still an option for all items that are not account-bound. It might however be more expensive because there are less people getting the drop by pure luck. Most drops will be for people working towards the items.

saalle.4623:

I also dont see any point in housing.Total waste of time.Im up for having guild halls or something like that but player housing is just a waste.

It does not need to have a point. It’s customization and so it’s there just for fun. There is no point in skins or dyes but it’s there for fun. It’s a game it’s only point is ’ fun’. Or it should be.

I would also like to see guild-halls but that preferably in a similar way as player housing can be done. Really being busy with your guild to build the guild-hall or castle. Not just one instance where people can meet. It should add more to the game.

shredder.3698:

After they nerfed the champ train and the ori-farm, there is no way, except dungeon sc and worldboss farm , where you can earn a good amount of gold.
Do you guys have any idea, what to do beside dungeons to earn some cash ?

Don’t you get it? You are supposed to buy gems to convert to gold.

Question. What is so fun about grinding gold? Why are you grinding gold? To buy an item? And would it then not be more fun to work / fun for that item itself.

Shizlam.4310:

Seriously, stop wasting money on crap completely unrelevant to the lore and history of guild wars and start giving us something that we really want. Also you better hurry cause well wildstar with their housing feature + the combaat system will probably steal part of the GW2 community, i mean i have been playing their open beta and the game (even though its quests and thingies are boring) looks pretty great and i just won’t play it casue of the subscription.

Or just let people just pay for the content in stead of for cash-shop items. Throw all those items in the game.. making it game-play and release expansions to generate income.

There are indeed a few other mmo’s releasing soon (or have been released). One I am not even allowed to mention as I am then ‘derailing the thread’. So it seems that they are very much aware of those games. However for Anet to consider it a thread it needs to be F2P or B2P needs to have a living world creating much what Anet promised (so something like a sandpark where people change the world) and need to be focusing on more ‘casual’ gaming. And then I do not mean casual as ’ only plays a few hours’ but people who care about skins, housing, mounts and so on.

Then again, most of the games that are getting releases their own problems. Grindy (even more then GW2), of subscription or simply a complete different audience.

About the Wildstar example. People who switch because they are unhappy with the road GW2 took you should understand that both games are from Ncsoft. So as far as steering towards getting more income vs create a good game and get money that way it will likely be the same.

Serophous.9085:

I don’t get it either. Rift has housing, and I never touched it.

I guess people are tired of seeing armor, weapon, and quaggan back pack skins in the trading post and want to see stuff quaggan statues instead.

Who said anybody wanted it in the cash-shop. We want it to be part of the game. That takes the cash-shop out of the equation. Once again an expansion that adds this to the world is the solution.

psyckos.6893:

KarateKid.5648:

psyckos.6893:

Amalia.2879:

In Game Housing…. sigh I miss SWG and the sandbox goodness it used to be.

I agree!!! Also, I would like the ability to build my house out of mithril ingots, bloodstone dust, blade shards and mystery tonics. Can I just throw all of those into the MF and get back a house blueprint that allows me to choose the style of house when I double click it? I’ll take a log cabin in Timberline Falls please.

In-zone housing could be dangerous… take putting a cabin in Queensdale: You wake up, grab coffee, step out onto the front porch to stretch and enjoy the fresh morning air… BLAM!!! stampeded by a massive zerg!

Lol! With the megaserver, open world housing wouldn’t work very well. Buildable land would be in short supply. They would more than likely have to create either instanced zones or new open world zones strictly for housing….which kind of feel like concentration camps now that I think about it.

It happens in more games what I apparently am not allowed to mention because then I an derailing the threat lol. Anyway, there you indeed will see open world housing in specific area’s, not all over the place.

Mitch.4781:

Ok first up..in GW2 it ain’t gonna happen..secondly..why should it???? Why should Devs spend their time creating stuff that hardly anyone will use or port too except a few Rp’ers. I just don’t understand..This ISN’’T the Sims…

Need more zones/classes/weapons/races before trivial fluff like housing.

It’s a goal to work towards that many people like. Not only RP players. You can also make it open world so then it adds something to the world or build a castle with guilds in a open pvp / WvW map.

It adds a lot of game-play. That is why people like it.

I don’t know what a type of player you are if you think that only RP players will be interested in it but it’s just something as dyes, mounts, skins and so on. Customization / building / working towards something.

In a way an MMO RPG is a huge adventure building game. You are always building something.. being it your character and being it looks or stats or whatever you are interested in. So homes make perfect sense there.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Let me give one example to show that rewards do effect the way you have dun with an activity.

Imaging a fair without rewards or better imagine a lottery without rewards.

Okey sure. Now imaging if the fair instead of proving engaging activities had boring activities. Such as instead of hitting a target with a toy gun you had to count pebbles on a beach or leaves on a tree. Something that takes time and that’s an activity you dont enjoy. Maybe you really like that teddy bear and go through counting those pebbles but you’re not going to say wow generally I really hate counting pebbles but today I am having the time of my life.

Same thing with lotteries. No one enjoys paying the ticket price (which is like the only activity you get to do in a lottery) so much so how many times did you hear people stating the ticket price are cheap or fair? Or better yet assuming you dont actually win how many times did you hear people going ohh that was totally worthed! Simply speaking the joy of a lottery comes entirely from the prize (never mind there is no activity there for the prize to actually make fun)

I never denied rewards can be fun or be motivators for people to engage in activities they’d otherwise not get involved in. I just said if said activities are boring rewards are not going to change that.

I don’t say ‘the activities should be boring’ But the one enhances the other and yeah there are some activities where the activitie is boring but it can get exciting because of the reward. Like the lottery. There is no fun in picking a number and waiting to see if somebody else then names your number.. if that’s all there is. Now add a price and suddenly people get excited.

But overall the one simply enhances the other.

Vasco.8072:

Devata.6589:

Vasco.8072:

I come from a decade of Ultima Online (I started playing gw2 from May of last year) and there were no mounts with no bonus but beautiful to look at and everyone tried to use what he liked most to create their own a style (as is done in gw2 for weapons, armor and back)
you could also enter the profession of the tamer, a class that uses animals to fight and can tame them and sell them (there is already a ranger but we are talking about a class that focuses more on pets such as using three pets at a time and mainly deals with cure them)

Tamer things is fun. In fact I suggestion crafts like that in the ‘horizontal progression’ CDI.

The tamer would be a good class, server Unofficial where I played Ultima Online tamer could be accompanied by a large beast and two children or two medium-sized beasts.
He was mainly responsible for keeping the beasts with spells from a distance or up close with bandages and in dungeons was the best character …
On gw2 would be a hybrid between a Ranger and a Elementalist …
Here, I think it would definitely be the most important new classes of mounts!
I’ve always loved the games full of classes and combinations to do … if you do not understand as well as customize my characters I like even more aesthetically customize them in their abilities!
I’ve played (in offline) in many RPG full of classes and combinations (Baldur’s Gate 1 and 2, Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2, Dragon Age Origin’s 1 and 2) … if there were so many classes in gw2 I think I would be forced to leave the work and my girlfriend to try them all! lol

I thought you where talking about a tamer craft. Not a class.

Vasco.8072:

Devata.6589:

Vasco.8072:

I think mounts should be included but without bonus (or at most with a paltry bonus)
in short, that fantasy is without mounts???
even then would agree to ArenaNet, could put the base mounts purchased from npc breeders and special mounts can be purchased with gems …

And then where is the fun in collecting special mounts if they are all cash-shop items. Yhet another game-play element down the gone.. just like with mini’s. Going into the world to collect those special mounts is half of the fun of mounts. So I say it again, leave the cash-shop out if it. Yeah they need to make money, start selling expansions.

I do not speak from a collector but as a player who likes to customize their avatar as much as possible, I would take a mount to my every character according to his style.
Given that there are people who spend money to buy gems (I unfortunately due to the economic availability can not afford it but I would do if I had the availability rather than me hours and hours of boss to buy gems with gold … I would only WVW!) ArenaNet because it was an idea to give us a great game by paying only once …
Expansions? The buy it again but not for mounts, at least there should be new classes!

Obviously an expansion should have more then just mounts, I would not name it an expansion if it only added mounts. And you basically say, you would want to buy gems so you would not have to grind gold. Why you think you have to grind gold? Maybe so buying gems becomes an interesting option? That the cash-shop focus influence.

Personally I also like the customizing part. But also the collecting and how awesome is it to customize your character with something you earned in the game by killing a specific boss or whatever… instead of grinding gold or buying it with cash.

Gearbox.2748:

Devata.6589:

Gearbox.2748:

Louveepine.7630:

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Hmm some rather good points there. Definitely worth thinking about.

I don’t have the financial info on it, but lets make a guesstimate.

Making a New MMO costs (X) . (you can reduce some cost if you have a previous game with developed lore and such to attach it to. (x) )

Since it is an MMO and not an offline game- some monthly cost is involved. (Y)

Making an expansion will cost far less than X as mechanics are developed etc. but it still needs to be substantial, or players will not feel its an expansion, rather than say; new content- as fractals, dungeons etc)
For the arguments sake lets call it (Z)

So GW2 is X-x and without monthly subscription meaning Y needs to be handled in another way. That is done by Micro-transactions.

Will a new expansion cost extra money-? yes likely that seems to be the consensus business model. and would need to be there to pay for the Z.
Does it take time to develop Z? yes quite a lot.. as you say a few years.
Since it is an MMO and no offline. I assume they need those transactions to run while they develop an expansion instead of subscription.

It also means that we have a bit of choice as to what our money is used for.- . negative part is as you say- resources are spend there instead of developing Z.

My experience from other MMO have been that new expansions come- and a large amount of players again rush through it. (max level or end content) – in a matter of weeks…— again far faster than you can develop for.
It creates a negative spiral. where you can never develop fast enough.-

So instead you create features and smaller content to keep player base active. (its cost efficient) and GW2 did that. plenty of new stuff comes all the time.. (not all good, but heck)

Do I want expansion.. hell yes.!. I want a new race and new maps etc. Higher max level.- No! absolutely not. its ruined a lot of other games.

But from a financial solid foundation , as a developer you have to try to get players to spend as much time as possible in the X before Z. and even jump through hoops to get old players to re-try old content so that new players feel that the game is active—

and before you start- no- Mega servers etc is not the way to do it… Do I have a solution.-…. No…..

I’ll have to think through the Micro Vs Subscription and yes your point is excellent on- when are we feeding the machine that works against an expansion. at what point is it better for devs to get kitten s in gear.

“I assume they need those transactions to run while they develop an expansion instead of subscription. “ Why? Non-mmo games have never needed it. Sure MMO’s have higher cost keeping stuff running and updated so they might make a little less in those first years then non-mmo’s do but after maybe 3 years (releasing an expansion every year) they are even with the non-mmo games and after that they would be starting to make more money. (that time is just a guestimate).

Of course it has a higher risk because if it fails after a year you did lose or at least did not make a lot of money. Short term cash-shop is safer.

That is long-term investment planning.

And then there are cash-shops and cash-shops. If they put only things in the cash-shop that are really not part of the game it’s not a problem. Think of total-makeover kits (except if the lore would dictate that the people would morph into any shape), name-changers, (not hair-cuts.. that belongs in the game as a barber), sex-changer, race-changer, guild-name changer and if they give you at least the amount of character-slots you need to have all races or professions (whatever you have most) then additional character-slots could also be oke. So they could use that as a side income supporting the game meanwhile.

You can even sell vip-subscription. Now this might sound strange coming from me. However even that can be done right. A temporary title (only while the sub is active) and access to beta servers. Maybe even if you add items as drops (if it’s nothing special where time is important) the vip people might be able to get those drops 3 days sooner. But that last one is tricky. Still that’s an example how you can even make a subscription harmless and might still attract people who like to have access to the beta severs.

In addition you have merchandise. Something an average MMO (especially when it has a longer lifetime) can benefit of likely even more then your average non-MMO.

vana.5467:

Devata.6589:

3. Do not spend a single dime on cash-shop / gems as that only helps to push towards a cash-shop focus what is bad for the game. So as supporter I make sure I don’t steer them in the wrong direction. I don’t want to be part of the reason stuff go’s bad.

Sadly enough there are to many people who do buy many gems (falling for marketing tricks) helping the game come to the bad state it is in currently. Anyway, I did what I could to support this game.

Fully agreed.

Before I saw this thread I genuinely didn’t understand why Anet puts so much focus on arguable useless items in the gem store, simply because I couldn’t fathom any scenario where I would personally buy them.
It’s surprising to me to see how much some people actually spend. Can’t blame ANet on this one, though – if I could bring in piles of cash money by periodically launching game skins that I could cook up in a few days, I no doubt would. I do wonder what they’re doing with the rest of their time, though..

As far as the topic goes, I have not spent any money in the cash shop. Nor will I.

I do not blame the financial people behind the game. For them it’s just a source of income. I do however expect a company to also want to make a quality product and while the cash-shop stuff is easy and works (on the short run). Selling regular expansions should work as well and can hold a higher quality for the game. So to that extent I do blame Anet.

Compare it with non-MMO games. They create a game what takes 3 to 5 on average to build (Development time can be very different per game but I think 3 to 5 is a good average). They sell it for 60. Maybe an expansion a year later for 40 and then they start creating a new game that gets released multiple years later. Most games have bugs and have MP so they also have to do bug-fixes and keep servers running. For sure that’s less then in MMO’s but it’s not like they are done after release.

Then take an MMO. Initial build-time might be longer. 5 to 7 on average. You need to do more fixes, balances and some small releases (most mmo’s have at lease one bigger patch inbetween expansions) and have higher cost running the server. On the other hand, they can push out expansions every year, building and expanding up on what they already have.

So they should even with 100% expansion sales be able to generate the income (and more) of what non-MMO’s gaming-companies generate. The longer the game is successful the higher the profit. And you can even put core upgrades (graphical upgrades and so on) in the expansion. No need for a sequel you have to build from scratch and you can do it in parts. One expansions you upgrade the model of x, and the other expansion you upgrade the model of y.

Sadly the MMO’s has become a money grabber for companies and that’s also why you see so many games and franchise going MMO-RPG. But as soon as that happens the quality shoots down. It’s then up to the company that makes the game to keep it high.

Vasco.8072:

I come from a decade of Ultima Online (I started playing gw2 from May of last year) and there were no mounts with no bonus but beautiful to look at and everyone tried to use what he liked most to create their own a style (as is done in gw2 for weapons, armor and back)
you could also enter the profession of the tamer, a class that uses animals to fight and can tame them and sell them (there is already a ranger but we are talking about a class that focuses more on pets such as using three pets at a time and mainly deals with cure them)

Tamer things is fun. In fact I suggestion crafts like that in the ‘horizontal progression’ CDI.

Vasco.8072:

I think mounts should be included but without bonus (or at most with a paltry bonus)
in short, that fantasy is without mounts???
even then would agree to ArenaNet, could put the base mounts purchased from npc breeders and special mounts can be purchased with gems …

And then where is the fun in collecting special mounts if they are all cash-shop items. Yhet another game-play element down the gone.. just like with mini’s. Going into the world to collect those special mounts is half of the fun of mounts. So I say it again, leave the cash-shop out if it. Yeah they need to make money, start selling expansions.

Gearbox.2748:

Louveepine.7630:

rather they could offer us the expansion … it would be better for that good, armors skins of 50 Euros …

:) well to be fair; the cost of developing a quaggan hat versus a good actual expansion…. well….
Naturally a game as this with no monthly will have to make a lot of very small items for players to buy to function economical.

As a large group of players rush through whatever content to get to max- and then complain of lack of content- catering to that group of players is pointless.
You can’t develop as fast,- as the most end-game players reach end game.

From a commercial standpoint you are correct. Why create good content while there are people you can persuade people to spend it on other stuff. Like buying mini’s (what is fun about buying a mini? I love to collect mini’s, but ingame.. What is fun on buying them? Yes there might be a few you like but getting them all or many for cash or even gold..?), skipping the grind you first make so people can skip it and more of that stuff.

For the short term (3 years?) that’s great. Fairly easy income, but for the quality of the game is does not do any good. That is also why I really don’t get that people buy that stuff. Then again, I also don’t understand why people spend a lot of money in casino and so on… and no it has nothing to do with fun. A game of higher quality is more fun.

Biggest problem is that it negatively effects the game for everybody, and most of the buyers in fact think they are supporting the game. Then after two years they start complaining the game is going in the wrong direction. No kittenpo sherlock.

Then they move on to the next game and so for the company (Ncsoft in this case) it’s no problem there model works for the short term. Those people then go to a game like Wildstar (again from Ncsoft). Why care about long-term and high quality games?

Wetpaw.3487:

Devata.6589:

Wetpaw.3487:

I treated this game like a sub model (used to that mmo model anyhow) 10-20$/month in support of Anet, gave that up due to the direction and content about 9months ago.

I did drop $20 in response to the Feature Pack, back to f2p mode til they figure out a direction that I consider worthy of support.

By treating this B2P game as a sub-based game you did push them in that direction.
You want some higher quality content then spend some extra bucks on the expansions. Not on a cash-shop.

This is a b2p game, I understand this game has to have some revenue w/o a sub model to be successful in the age of gaming where players think content, development, and wages come for free, and yes this may be new news for you but expansions have and tend to be the norm in mmo’s even b2p/f2p models.

I think after the first year Anet gave me a good indication that they were not going the route of GW1, or other mmo’s w/xpacs & solid content so withholding the financial support of this game was a personal decision I came to.

But implying supporting this game in the way I did ($10-20/m) was the reason we see no expansions, faster and earlier QoL updates, and content is just ignorant.

The direction of GW2 falls on Anet and Ncsoft. If they choose to continue down this path and has a community that enjoys this path and support it, all that means is the game is not for me.

Yeah they have to make money and expansions are the norm. But they are not just as important for every model. Cash-shop sales are more important for F2P games so they often get less expansions and more little additions you can buy. Sub-based games do also not rely on expansions for income but will release an expansion on average every 2 years, in multiple MMO’s for free as people pay the sub.

Then there is the B2P model that should make money on people buying the game. That also means expansions and as you say they have to make money so you should expect expansions on a faster release then F2P or sub-based games. One a year max 1,5 year. So not sure why you say ‘even in B2P games’. They are there to support a true B2P games. It should be the core of a B2P game as (as you say) a company has to make money.

That also means that the direction a company go’s is influenced by the way it gets it’s money. If they would have sold many copies (they did) but would have very low gem-sales they would have to focus on an expansion knowing that would likely generate income but if they see gem-sales are high that is what they focus on.

Nate Anabe.6091:

Nerelith I borrowed you sig

“Never try and teach a pig to sing. You waste your time, and annoy the pig.”

Which is what posters on either side of the argument are doing in trying to sway the other person to their point of view. If anet decides to add mounts the will, if they decide not to they won’t. Either way does not matter to me I will still continue to play how I want and get things that appeal to me and not because it is what all the other people have.

Yeah the whole compromise thing has become a little funny. As if it’s worth anything. But it’s so funny that I am willing to go along with it.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Nerelith.7360:

Devata.6589:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Devata.6589:

Nice examples of how mounts can be implemented and what they can add.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_fLW-Ic5C0#t=632

AHH yes – the infamous ArcheAge – that video shows me the mounts DETRACT from the experience not adding anything.

Detract? They add a lot of game-play. For example, those ships you see they add the whole quest of building them and when you have them they can be used for open see battles or to transfer goods.

That is not detracting anything. It is enhancing and adding a lot. Especially for a game that is based on stuff like fluff and build for casuals.

Big throwback with that game is that it’s F2P so then you can imagine it’s implementation. On the other hand. GW2 has now reach that same level of cash-shop focus negative side-effects.

Maybe you should be playing Archeage then?

He would actually have to pay 150 USD right now to play it. Too rich for their blood, easier to whine here.

I did pay 160 Euro (that’s more as 160 dollar) for GW2. But no, I am not paying that amount of money for a F2P game. And in retrospect .. oow well.

Nerelith.7360:

Devata.6589:

Nerelith.7360:

Devata.6589:

Nice examples of how mounts can be implemented and what they can add.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_fLW-Ic5C0#t=632

Cosmetics only, as far as I am concerned. If you understand compromise then the way it works is… you start with 99 % speed boost, I start with zero. And we meet at " quickness" speed. The devs do not want any players being able to run faster than quickness speed, unless it can be traited faster, or gain additional benefit from runes and sigils, I do not Know of any speed faster than quickness. I may be wrong. If they did, we would see it by now. So this is the most I am pretty certain any anti-mount player would be willing to see as a speed boost exactly because it is a permanent one. Chances are…most might not budge and go above 25 %, since it is a perma-boost.

As I said. I am sure many anti-mount are unwilling to even think about cosmetics Only mounts, and then, ONLY if they are " hideable."

So let me see some real limitations from you, and Not this strategy of " I really want 10,000% speed boost… so let’s compromise and agree on 99 %."

Let’s be realistic. Quickness buff speed, and no higher is a fair compromise.

The 99% was not my start-point. It was my compromise. I am fine with the way mounts are implemented in many MMO’s and there 200% is not an exception.

“Chances are…most might not budge and go above 25 %, since it is a perma-speed-boost.” So that means no compromise as there is already a perma-speed-boost of 25% for many professions. perma-boost is not new to this game. You act as if it is.

And cosmetic only mounts are also already in the game. (not hidable) So they are not willing to compromise. At least I am willing to find a middle ground.

So all in all 3x current quickness as perma on mounts seems to be a nice middle-ground to me.

You misunderstand, the main compromise is any mount at all.

After that since the opening position is cosmetics only mounts,… anything higher than 0 % is a concession.

Lastly 200 % speed boost in other games has no relevance whatsoever to this game.

I do not care that a Billion other games have 500 % speed boost. the question is THIS Game.

So your opening is still 99 %. and MY opening is 0 %. The amount you will be LUCKY to have is… 33 %. Since you will be Lucky to get anything that is Not just a cosmetics mount.

As I said, sine My opening position is " Pure cosmetics mount" 33 % quickness buff speed is being generous.

The idea that other games have faster mounts is irrelevant to this one. If you need a speed boost mount I am sure there are plenty of other games that have it.

Like Archage.

“You misunderstand, the main compromise is any mount at all.”
You consider a cosmetic count as a mount and that’s already in the game. So how is that a compromise in the discussion of adding (real) mounts?

“Lastly 200 % speed boost in other games has no relevance whatsoever to this game.”
Not because it’s in other games but it has because that is what most pro-mount people are fine with or might even want.

No my opening is 200% as I am one of the pro-mount people who are perfectly fine with a 200% perma speed-boost. 99% is my compromise.

“As I said, sine My opening position is " Pure cosmetics mount" 33 % quickness buff speed is being generous. ” Yeah so your opening is nothing extra as what is already in the game. The ’ opening’ for most pro-mount people are mounts like you see them in many other mmo’s. That means a 200% perma boost. That is why it is relevant as that’s what many people use as standard. But you can forget about the other games. Just know that pro-mount people often think of 200% perma speed-boost and then it’s indeed not so important where they get that idea from.

Assassin X.8573:

No.

15 characters

Lol

Wetpaw.3487:

Devata.6589:

I see two statements coming back in these sort of threads.

1. I spend X but won’t spend any-more for now because they don’t add any interesting / I don’t like where the game went.

Well why the heck would they invest time and money in making real content if they can simply make the game a grind or add some fluff to the cash-shop and people are dropping tons of money in there direction for the fluff or to get out of the grind?

2. It’s just a game for me so I don’t mind spending money on it. I just want to have fun, don’t want to grind for everything I want.

So the game is a grind and you can buy yourself out of that grind making it more fun.

If only people would refuse to spend money on cash-shops and DLC and other nonsense (yeah fun nonsense but it being a game fun nonsense should be in the game) and in stead pay it for real content (the game itself, good expansions) then quality of games (including GW2) would be much better.

Of course it’s up to everybody how he spends he or her money. However people should be aware how it effects a game and that throwing money at a company does not mean you are supporting the game.. you are supporting the company and support them to make cash-shop stuff even more interesting in many times by making the game without cash-shop products less interesting.

Welcome to the f2p/b2p mmo model, you nailed it in your post.

If a mmorpg is worthy of a sub model every player has a voice when they dislike the direction by withholding their sub.

In the f2p/b2p mmo model five players can spend nothing while one drops $100 plus in one click. I don’t see any reason for them to change their direction sadly.

I would rather name this a cash-shop model. What is the pretty much the same as a F2P model but then I get people telling me it’s really a B2P model because you have to pay for the initial game. So cash-shop game.

A true B2P model does not have such a heavy focus on the cash-shop but on box-sales (including expansions). So you should say ‘Welcome to the cash-shop model’. Problem is, I did sign up for the B2P model. What is in the way you describe it the same as a sub-model but without the timer over your head.

Wetpaw.3487:

I treated this game like a sub model (used to that mmo model anyhow) 10-20$/month in support of Anet, gave that up due to the direction and content about 9months ago.

I did drop $20 in response to the Feature Pack, back to f2p mode til they figure out a direction that I consider worthy of support.

By treating this B2P game as a sub-based game you did push them in that direction.
You want some higher quality content then spend some extra bucks on the expansions. Not on a cash-shop.

I see two statements coming back in these sort of threads.

1. I spend X but won’t spend any-more for now because they don’t add any interesting / I don’t like where the game went.

Well why the heck would they invest time and money in making real content if they can simply make the game a grind or add some fluff to the cash-shop and people are dropping tons of money in there direction for the fluff or to get out of the grind?

2. It’s just a game for me so I don’t mind spending money on it. I just want to have fun, don’t want to grind for everything I want.

So the game is a grind and you can buy yourself out of that grind making it more fun.

If only people would refuse to spend money on cash-shops and DLC and other nonsense (yeah fun nonsense but it being a game fun nonsense should be in the game) and in stead pay it for real content (the game itself, good expansions) then quality of games (including GW2) would be much better.

Of course it’s up to everybody how he spends he or her money. However people should be aware how it effects a game and that throwing money at a company does not mean you are supporting the game.. you are supporting the company and support them to make cash-shop stuff even more interesting in many times by making the game without cash-shop products less interesting.

Sounds interesting. I did suggest multiple times to record Karka invasion like events (like in-game, so you might even see yourself) and make those available. Same for other lore stuff. The lore system is more like a lore quest line I guess what could be nice indeed.

Sartharina.3542:

We don’t need mounts. But, what we DO need is Tanks, which are restricted to guilds only, and would require a full party to summon through a waypoint. From there, Guildmates can travel in style, with at least five full seats in each tank (A driver that can run mobs over and move the tank. A commander than can shoot with a machine gun and give temporary boons to the tank, a gunner that uses the difficult-but-awesome Artillery mechanics on the main gun, and two auxiliary positions), and several hotseats that allow others to take potshots at mobs (Or enemies in WvW) and grant Aegis to the tank every 30 seconds or so.

In PvE, the tank would be a nice way to get around while taking the scenic route and blowing the wildlife to bits (And for the occasional drunken joyride!). In WvW, it would be a big, shiny deathtrap that probably can’t pull its own weight without an expert core crew that is more awesome than it is practical to field.

We do not NEED anything. It’s a game. It would however be a nice addition.. mounts.

And your tank is a combat mount. So you say.. We do not need mounts and then tell we need a mount. A guild-mount. I prefer personal mounts but a guild-mount would be a nice addition to that.

Dusty Moon.4382:

As for mounts in GW2, I found this article.

http://www.guildmag.com/community-interview-with-colin-johanson/

“GuildMag: In the newly released trailer, we saw the presence of airships flying above Lion’s Arch. What is their role in the story? Do they relate to the Dominion of Winds or otherwise?

Colin: Laughs Look at you, everyone wants to know about the airships.

So the airships do not have anything to do with the Dominion of Winds, no. They are different things. I’m not going into any other details, I will say there will be at least one airship in Guild Wars 2, there might be more than one.

(We then reminded him of the fact that there were more than one featured in the trailer.)
Colin: Yeah, I guess the trailer shows more than one, huh. They may play into the game and some of the gameplay of Guild Wars 2, but there are no mounts in Guild Wars 2. You can’t have an airship as a mount on initial release, but mounts will play into some of the gameplay in the game."

We have those mounts now – in PS, in EotM, etc. – they are part of the story not ‘FLUFF’ (sorry couldn’t help myself).

Yeah I know that article but what is your point? There are no mounts (usable I guess he means) and you won’t have an airship as a mount on initial release.

In fact I think he later stated there would never be flying mounts, not only not on release. Not 100% sure he said that. He also later stated that if mounts would be implemented it should be more then we see in other mmo’s. It would have to be GW2 mounts. For example mounts with combat.

So yeah I am aware of what Colin has said about mounts. But what is the point you are trying to make here? With this?

Dusty Moon.4382:

Devata.6589:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Devata.6589:

Nice examples of how mounts can be implemented and what they can add.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_fLW-Ic5C0#t=632

AHH yes – the infamous ArcheAge – that video shows me the mounts DETRACT from the experience not adding anything.

Detract? They add a lot of game-play. For example, those ships you see they add the whole quest of building them and when you have them they can be used for open see battles or to transfer goods.

That is not detracting anything. It is enhancing and adding a lot. Especially for a game that is based on stuff like fluff and build for casuals.

Big throwback with that game is that it’s F2P so then you can imagine it’s implementation. On the other hand. GW2 has now reach that same level of cash-shop focus negative side-effects.

LOL – Cash shop is not needed and you don’t have to buy anything to play GW2, it is all extra items. But, people make a huge deal out of it. That is probably just one small team working on that, more than likely. Y’all are making a big deal out of the CS, A.Net is just trying to entice you. It is kind of like buying a Ferrari when a Chevy will do. They both get you to the same place. If you ignore the CS, except for selling items (like I do) it not a big deal.

There are the classic phrases – ‘fluff’ and ‘built for casuals’ – I love when people say that. It seems that people who say those terms think of games as a career or a job.Those terms are not negative and both are very subjective based on your frame of reference. I play to have fun and play with online friends. If a game seems like a job, then I don’t play it any more. Rift was like that with the 20 man raids, grinding for gear. Some people may think that is fun, it is a chore to me.

A friend of mine is playing AA, and while those mounts, you may think are interesting, the amount of time and resources (in game) to build them is ridiculous and they can also be destroyed.

So, if GW2 doesn’t get mounts, would y’all leave or just whine and complain on the forums? Just asking a real honest question, because so many threads seem to be people just whining about this or that.

You do not NEED anything. It’s a game you know. You don’t need P2W items and people complain about that. Well I don’t care about stats or kills I care about fluff and it’s what Anet focuses on even more then getting kills. So it does not matter if you do not need it. Putting in fluff items effect the game (no fun in collecting mini’s for example) and so it’s bad for the game imho.

“It seems that people who say those terms think of games as a career or a job” No the opposite. They see it as fun and so see fluff as just as important as stats. It’s all just for fun. Those who think you ‘need’ anything see it as a job. Oow and I did not mean it negative. I prefer fluff, thats why I also like mounts, yeah they add speed-boost and can add much more but there are mainly fluff. (You know with your second aline you undermine your first?)

Yeah I know that of AA. That is part of the cash-shop focus effects. Money is the short cut (same in GW2, almost everything is gold and you can buy gold with gems). Maybe it’s not s bad as AA, still have to see how it;s implemented here after the beta.

Anyway, while a little related to mounts (how to implement them) not really what this thread is about so I will leave it with that.

No, mounts are not the main thing. My biggest complain has to do with that cash-shop focus. So funny you ask that question in this post.

There is not one single thing that would make me leave. It’s a combination of things I guess. Normally I might have already left but I have a great guild that is what makes me stay. I still have fun doing JP’s from time to time or play a little on my alts. Waiting for SAB to return. That sort of stuff. Problem is there is no core game that really keeps me busy like in other MMO’s.

My main things in other MMO’s where collecting mini’s (in a fun way, not grinding gold), collecting ranger pets (usually there are many skins and stuff, you would have rare ones and so on. None of that in GW2), same for mounts (none of that in GW2) lastly I love to have a fun-craft that also sends me all over the world getting recipe’s and making fun items. GW2 has no fun-crafts and leveling your craft is mainly grinding gold and then level up to lvl 400 or 500 you can make what you really want. So thats not fun.

(and as ‘gold is everything’, seems related to the cash-shop-focus you can see why I dislike that a lot)

Like I said there are other things in GW2 that I like. A little WvW, The guild, JP’s and SAB. But no core stuff that keeps me occupied for a long time.

Anyway, this whole post was unrelated to mounts. Hope you got the answer you wanted. Now lets focus on mounts again.

Nerelith.7360:

Devata.6589:

Nice examples of how mounts can be implemented and what they can add.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_fLW-Ic5C0#t=632

Cosmetics only, as far as I am concerned. If you understand compromise then the way it works is… you start with 99 % speed boost, I start with zero. And we meet at " quickness" speed. The devs do not want any players being able to run faster than quickness speed, unless it can be traited faster, or gain additional benefit from runes and sigils, I do not Know of any speed faster than quickness. I may be wrong. If they did, we would see it by now. So this is the most I am pretty certain any anti-mount player would be willing to see as a speed boost exactly because it is a permanent one. Chances are…most might not budge and go above 25 %, since it is a perma-boost.

As I said. I am sure many anti-mount are unwilling to even think about cosmetics Only mounts, and then, ONLY if they are " hideable."

So let me see some real limitations from you, and Not this strategy of " I really want 10,000% speed boost… so let’s compromise and agree on 99 %."

Let’s be realistic. Quickness buff speed, and no higher is a fair compromise.

The 99% was not my start-point. It was my compromise. I am fine with the way mounts are implemented in many MMO’s and there 200% is not an exception.

“Chances are…most might not budge and go above 25 %, since it is a perma-speed-boost.” So that means no compromise as there is already a perma-speed-boost of 25% for many professions. perma-boost is not new to this game. You act as if it is.

And cosmetic only mounts are also already in the game. (not hidable) So they are not willing to compromise. At least I am willing to find a middle ground.

So all in all 3x current quickness as perma on mounts seems to be a nice middle-ground to me.

Gimli.9461:

Even wildstar has it. And I hate that game. I hate everything about it.
Yet I play it – only because it has lore system.

I wonder, are there really so few players out there who enjoy exploring the world and finding lore, and reading it? Because I did search on ‘lore’ in this forum and came up nada (maybe the search is just bad).

Anyway, lore system – would also provide a way to get those short stories into the game, more achievements, more reasons to explore the map; would just add more depth (on the lore side) to the game and make all of us explorer bartle types out there oh so happy. (or at least me)

Pretty please?

What is a lore system?