Guild Wars 2

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

And a lot of people enjoy the cadence, what does that mean? I didn’t ignore what you said, you’ve said it countless times before, so that’s not possible.

I didn’t say you were an exception, just that you don’t speak for everyone when you say that would definitely ‘improve’ the game. That’s how you see it, not how it may or may not actually be.

We know this is your pet peeve, and you are welcome to it. =)

Those examples are indeed improvements or tell me how it’s better for the game in general to have a mini in the cash-shop vs in the game from a game-play perspective.

There are indeed things that are personal depending on the person but no I don’t believe there are many people who say “Yeah I love mini’s in the cash-shop and not as drop because it makes the game so much better” .

So if it comes to those examples I do feel it’s general not personal. But if you prefer temporary content every two weeks or not that’s indeed personal. There are for sure some people who love that stuff.

Stuff (word changes) can leave as long as the activities, achievements and rewards stay. Maybe you like to grind against time but many people don’t. I also don’t get why you compare it to the personal story. I am asking for it not to be temporary but I for sure am not asking for it to be like the personal story. I did not yet complete that on any character because as you say I am playing an MMO not an single-player game.

Having it not temporary is not the same as the personal story.

“More than this I enjoy the fact that, because I was here playing from a lot, I have rewards other can never have. What is the point of let everyone have everything? “ Nobody said everybody should get everything and why should you get something just for being here now? How about lock it behind specific content and make it rewarding that way. Then it adds value and then it will still be rare and then if a new player comes to the game and he sees a nice skins he can start working towards getting it. Maybe you like to tell him he can’t get it any-more but it also means that’s content that is missing for him.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

A better game for you. I’m not sure an expansion model would be better for Guild Wars 2. I enjoy the bi-weekly release cadence. I know you do not, but you can’t really speak for everyone when you (again) claim that an expansion model would be better for the game.

To each his/her own. =)

Well looking at the many complains it’s not only me but a lot of people.

Besides I did give very specific examples to show it would a better game in general. The fact that you ignored those examples says enough really.

Also I don’t say they may put in bi-weekly updates. All I dislike about them is the temporary nature of it. One again I’m not the only one but many many many people are complaining about that. Maybe it’s you who is the exception here? Who knows?

Even Anet said they would make it more permanent because of all the feedback. Lets hope they indeed do so in LS S2.

But obviously to each it’s own. For sure there will be thinks you like and I dislike and the other way around.

Behellagh.1468:

~

No they did not say it. They sold it as B2P and had a good name with a B2P model in GW2. So I trusted them to do the same with GW2. That does not make it any better however.

It’s also not completely the same as DLC but I am also not a big fan of DLC. Prefer a good expansion.

“And stop using the “do not NEED because it’s a game” line.” It was you who asked why I would need anything? I just answer that. So if you don’t want to hear that don’t ask me.

“Nothing in the cash shop has any long term benefits to your character’s ability to do anything in the game.” Yeah I figured that’s your definition of need (and with benefit you talk about stats right?). But that completely depends on your personal play-style. I don’t care so much for stats I prefer it to have a nice mini or nice skin or something like that. So it benefits in looks for exmaple.

“You’re the one who can’t resist the pretty baubles in the cash shop and sticking to the “buy and play for free” Considering I did not buy any gems nor do I grind gold I guess I can resist. It’s just that I prefer to play for those things in game. That’s obvious a game-play you don’t like but that’s how it works. Also not sure how you get the idea that I grind for gold?

“gold to gems will make it cost more the next time you use the exchange you have decided that will be the only way you will get an item from the cash shop even as the amount of work required to earn the same amount of gems skyrockets (3x in a year). ” If I really want something from the cash-shop I would indeed buy it with gold if I would have the gold but as I don’t grind gold I never have a lot of gold. Not sure what you want to say here.. I should just buy it with cash because it’s to expensive.. and then where would be the part where I play?? You see I have this game to play it, not to buy skins for my character in it. That’s a silly idea of playing a game imho.

“You do have to admit that this game doesn’t nickle and dime you over content, slots, storage, outfits like many F2P games do.” What are you saying here? But as far as I understand your sentence. Yes there are some F2P games that are even worse. That does not make it good you know.

Your last assumption about what I dislike about it is true. The problem is it started pretty good and then they made a turn for the worse. And I am not the only one disliking that as you might have noticed.

Oow and I just like GW1’s payment model. Not the game. You make many assumptions that are complete nonsense like that I love GW1 and that I grind gold and that I can’t resist the cash-shop items and so on.

But yeah I dislike for the road Anet went into, I think it’s bad for the game and Anet. I dislike them focusing on the cash-shop and so influencing the game with it all completely true. Isn’t the game not for me.. In it’s current state not anymore but at release it was and would they turn back to a true B2P model it might very well become the game for me anymore and it would become a better game overall for it. Because nobody is going to convince my that many of things that happen to the game because of the cash-shop focus are good for the game. Sure they might not harm you personal game-play but they are not good for the game. Having haircuts behind a pay-wall or gold-grind is in no way better then having a barber in the game where you can cut your hair for a few silver.

Having mini’s in a cash-shop is is not way better then having them drop from specific content. So all in all, all I am asking for is a better game.

“No charge to play, and play as much as you like.” What you describe now if F2P. I did have a charge to play.. you know there is no access to the game without buying the game. One of my main reasons to go for GW2 was because of the B2P model because I dislike the F2P / cash-shop model.

“On top of that, there is absolutely no argument to be made that you need the cash shop to play or to compete with other players.” You do not NEED anything in any game. Because it’s a game. Also not everybody plays a game just to compete with other players. For that I prefer FPS games. I prefer to hunt down nice items in the world. That however has been turned into one big gold-grind with most of those items not even being in the game but in the cash-shop.

“the game is being updated quite often with new story content and features.” Of what most was temporary content that only created a feeling of pressure to do it now because else you would lose out forever. And then there of course where all the temporary available cash-shop items. I preferred to do pay for new content (That’s the B from B2P) by buying a new expansion every year. Rather then have a cash-shop focus in this not F2P (F for not having to pay) game.

“If the updates are not to your liking, that’s another matter, but I don’t see the argument that this is not a B2P game.“ Well you could read B2P literally. Buy it to play and since you need to buy GW2 you could then say “you see it’s B2P.”. However what are we describing with B2P? We are describing it’s payment model and that does not end after the initial sales. What is now the main source of income? Them selling the game (yeah expansions belong to that) or them selling cash-shop items. Indeed cash-shop items. Just as it states in the list in OP’s post. So that’s why I say it’s not a true B2P game. At this moment it’s a cash-shop game you had to buy first.

Like I said I do not NEED anything it being a game. The game itself is optional so with that everything in it is. But you are right to point towards the game-play mode because depending on the game-play mode it may or may not hurt you. Do I NEED a mini? No. Would I have a lot of fun hunting down mini’s in the world? Yes. Do I have fun needing to grind gold or buy them with cash? No. Does it then effect the game-play? Yes it does.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Devata.6589:

Rezz.8019:

The whole point of GW2 is to be open world rather than instanced. You can go play WoW or any other generic MMO game if you wanted it to be instanced. GW2 is supposed to be different.

Also, only content that’s only for TTS/Att guilds (on NA) is wurm.
Tequatl is very easy on any megaserver map really, as long as you are there half an hour or so before the start. And you should be there earlier, it is an epic fight and not something where you should show up last minute and grab the reward.

You do understand that WoW feels more open world with it’s seamless zones and mounts to travel in it vs GW2 with it’s instanced zones and loading screens when using fast-travel options?

Throwing a world boss in the ‘open world’ does not change much to that.

When you fly in WoW, you do realize that is a loading screen. They just made it nice a glossy.

You mean the area around you is loading in the back-ground (so NO loading-SCREEN)? Yes I completely realize that. But because you don’t see it it’s much more immersive and you do see and feel a real open world.

Not sure what your point is.

Facepunch.5710:

I’m surprised by all the cynicism here. I’m not trying to be a fan boy, but it seems to me that a very successful GW2 in China means more resources will be allocated to ANet than otherwise. More resources means more design time means more content. It doesn’t mean that ANet will change direction, though, it probably means more Living Story and more gem store updates, so if that’s not your cup of tea then I guess it’s not good news for you, but if that’s the case you probably should’ve dropped the game a year ago.

Well I did buy a B2P game so that gives me the right to ask for a B2P game not a cash-shop game. But yeah it’s been pretty bad for over a year so I could have simply dropped it and never looked back. Also leaving behind an awesome guild we build up and so on.

Not that these numbers have much to do with that. Why would good (or bad) numbers here means no change? GW2 in China is now where we where almost 2 years ago.. not where we where a year ago when things took a turn for the worse. Not to mention that China is a complete different market.

rincewind.9528:

tolunart.2095:

Astralporing.1957:

The players didn’t ask for gear stat progression (well, some did, but it was a tiny, tiny minority even on forums). They asked for more endgame content, new zones, new skins (as well as raids, mounts and holy trinity). Anet decided to go that way on their own, barely two months in the game (less, if we consider that they had to start developing it some time before the November 11th patch).

Wrong.

You do not have access to Anet’s data, internal communications, or any such thing. Why would they make such an incredibly unpopular move on the basis of a few forum posts, then continue months later with ascended weapons and again with ascended armor?

If that were true, if Anet made changes to the game based on forum posts, the game would be completely different now. There would be no Living Story (most forum posts are against it) and an expansion would have already been announced, if not released. Every player would have a precursor if not a free Legendary given to them, and exotic gear would be as common as dirt. There would be tons of new weapon and armor skins, many new weapon types and skills and items like the infinite use tools would never rotate out of the gem shop.

They make decisions based on many things, and the reactions of the forum posters are barely considered at all. We are a tiny percentage of the player base, and the hardest to please. Given the ease with which posters can troll the forums, I would imagine most devs don’t consider the forums at all when creating new content or discussing future plans. About the only useful information that comes from here are bug reports.

I know no one will change their minds about this, but at least I know that all your complaining and demanding and pleading has no effect on the game.

I guess that then not buying gems and not playing are the other options to show that you’re displeased about how anet handle content.
But… how they know wich of the issues makes you not buying gems or what makes you stop playing?

Just post your problems and never buy gems, only by expansions. If only everybody would do that.

tolunart.2095:

Astralporing.1957:

The players didn’t ask for gear stat progression (well, some did, but it was a tiny, tiny minority even on forums). They asked for more endgame content, new zones, new skins (as well as raids, mounts and holy trinity). Anet decided to go that way on their own, barely two months in the game (less, if we consider that they had to start developing it some time before the November 11th patch).

Wrong.

You do not have access to Anet’s data, internal communications, or any such thing. Why would they make such an incredibly unpopular move on the basis of a few forum posts, then continue months later with ascended weapons and again with ascended armor?

If that were true, if Anet made changes to the game based on forum posts, the game would be completely different now. There would be no Living Story (most forum posts are against it) and an expansion would have already been announced, if not released. Every player would have a precursor if not a free Legendary given to them, and exotic gear would be as common as dirt. There would be tons of new weapon and armor skins, many new weapon types and skills and items like the infinite use tools would never rotate out of the gem shop.

They make decisions based on many things, and the reactions of the forum posters are barely considered at all. We are a tiny percentage of the player base, and the hardest to please. Given the ease with which posters can troll the forums, I would imagine most devs don’t consider the forums at all when creating new content or discussing future plans. About the only useful information that comes from here are bug reports.

I know no one will change their minds about this, but at least I know that all your complaining and demanding and pleading has no effect on the game.

Well if I read your post and would believe you then it would be a big mistake. Because with the exception of giving everybody a free legendary and making exotics accessible as dirt (both things I did not see mention in the forums while I did see all your other examples) the game would have been better for it with all those things.

Belenwyn.8674:

Devata.6589:

Some people say the story can’t be permanent because it would not be a real story. That however is nonsense. Anet makes the story itself and so it’s easy to make the story in a way so that all stuff is permanent. Lets take the destruction of LA. They put the activities, achievements and rewards around the destruction and the direct consequences. However they could have also make Scarlet destroy LA and make the LS (the stuff we do) around building up LA and the long-term effects of the destruction what could take multiple years. So doing it exactly the other way around as what they did now. Story wise it would make perfect sense and you get rid of the temporary nature of the LS.

Lets hope that is how they will do LS S2.

A Living Story located in the presence can’t be permanent. It has a start and an end. Compare it with an live event or show. To make it permanent you have to remove the story from the presence/current time frame and transfer it into the past. Flashbacks are still temporary but permanently available like the PS or the videotaping of a live show or event. What was missing in season 1 was the videotaping of key elements/scenes that could be replayed whenever you want. My assumption is that they introduce a PS/Flashback version of the LS after season 2 or certain arcs are closed.

Even your suggestion to build the LS around the restoration of LA would be temporary. It would have a start and an end. Arenanet could assign the vast majority of the achievement to permanent content like new zones or dungeons. I think they did it partially with Tequatl and the new Aetherpath.

But there would still be a different between attending season 2 in real-time and replaying it via PS. Some rewards/activities will be live rewards/activities like competitions for certain prizes or votings are only active/senseful in the live show and not in the videotaped version.

Best example is the election during Cutthroat Politcis. This election would not make any sense in a videotaped version of the chapter. There are more examples. There will be always moments where the live event gives you more immersion than the recorded version.

Replaying flash-backs is indeed also an option and at some point LA would have been rebuild but if you would take real-life time for that it can take years and after that you might want to extent LA and you can link many of those activities and achievements and rewards to that.

Obviously a part of it will have an end it’s just how you link the activities to it and to what part. With the tower of madness they they linked all activities to the destruction of the tower what took 1 month to 2 weeks (last patch was 2 weeks first was available for a month or so) but with my examples they could also just let that have happen a little different and without much of our input (just as we had no input in getting the people back to LA) and then put a JP or dungeon in the ruins of that tower and let us fight mutated animals.. well all the examples I gave before. Then you would still have that ongoing story and you would still have an event that ends, it’s just that all the content players can do is permanent (or at least for multiple years).

Belenwyn.8674:

Devata.6589:

“on the long run the shop will be the predominant source for income”
Poor people will get the same breakdown of the game as we, but at least there they are honest about it. Hope they also said that before release, not only a week after.

This is a normal process. An expansion with costs would produce a straw fire . A sharp peak in income for on quarter and a sharp declension after that quarter. After a more or less short time the shop will become the main source of income again.

Define ‘normal’.

GW1 mainly used the expansions-sales so do most non-mmo games.

You are correct that if you use expansions as income you get a drop after the q where you sell the expansion and then your next peak will be when you sell the next expansion. That however does not have to be a problem. You simply get a steady income on a yearly base. That is fine.

In fact when we look at the sales of GW1 and compare it’s expansion-peaks to it’s initial sale it’s about 100%. GW2’s cash-shop sales start to drop and are now at a steady +- 21% every q. That means that after the second expansion GW2 would have started to earn more money with a pure expansion-based model then with the pure cash-shop model they use now.

And then I am not even talk about the fact that the compromises you need to make to the game for the cash-shop to work scares away people so that number might drop even lower and if they now would sell an expansion it would likely also sell less and less people playing a game also results in less opportunity to make money with merchandise. Lastly is does not benefit the game and so in also not a benefit for the long-term perspective of the game.

The cash-shop model however is a fairly easy, risk-low, proven, cash-grab approach. That is likely why it’s the way but it does not benefit the game or the customers and when done correctly it does even not benefit the company.

“on the long run the shop will be the predominant source for income”
Poor people will get the same breakdown of the game as we, but at least there they are honest about it. Hope they also said that before release, not only a week after.

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

Devata.6589:

For LA I already gave an example. They could have destroyed LA without many activities linked to it. But then link the activities to building up LS what could take multiple years. At this moment they are building up LA (see last patch) without our input. They could have done it the other way around.

Similar for Tower of madness. I mean it’s fine if we can fight them when it’s going on just don’t link real achievements and rewards to it so people don’t feel pressured to do it then. Now that the tower is gone the players can get involved in the after effects. Maybe the poison created mutated animals so we need to clean the world and fight the mutated animals while the fallen tower might have been turned into an new JP that we can do and has it’s own achievement and reward linked to it. Now that’s how I would like to see the LS and then we have an ever changing world but the temporary nature and it negative side-effects are gone.

Don’t forget Anet makes the story. The way the tower of madness story was written it would make sense we where part of the destruction and there are only limited after effects but because they create the story they could have easily done it in a way that it would make more sense that we are more involved in the after effects or at least link most events and all achievements and rewards to that part.

“I have played so many MMO’s where I defend a city but fails and in the story it gets ruined and captured and after the story I can return there as if nothing ever happened.”
That is the same in GW2. If nobody or not enough people cleaned the poison on that tower it would still be cleaned. It is not like your input makes a real difference. But I do understand what you mean. You are mainly talking about cosmetic changes in the world and I am not against that. It’s the temporary nature of the LS I have a problem with and then I am talking about the activities for the players, not the cosmetic changes to the world.

You should understand that most people that complain about temporary content are not complaining about the fact the LA got destroyed or anything like that. The problem is that the story and the activities are created in a way that those activities are temporary.

“I think that the LS improved alot and as I said before there where alot of permanent content introduced after they promised to have more permanent content. ”
The problem is that your definition of permanent is not the same as many of the complainers. Like I said. It’s fine that they destroyed LA and it’s fine that they build that tower but link the activities to the after effects of the poisoning or to the rebuilding of LA. Building up LA might eventually also be done (but can take many years) but turning the tower into a JP or maybe even a dungeon would mean permanent constant and activities that make up the LS. We would still have the LS and changing world you like so much. Just without the pressure of doing things now and not next month.

Obviusly we are so far apart on different opinions so this is no use.
I don’t understand what you want and you apperently don’t understand me. Sorry.

I stand by my word, I like the LS as it is… It can be improved but I wouldn’t wan’t LS to be less “living” than it is now.

I am not so sure we are so far apart. We are far apart if it comes to if it’s fine as it is or not but all your examples are fine for me (and many of those that dislike the LS as it is).

In your example you talk about a destroyed LA, I’m fine with a destroyed LA. You talked about the tower of madness, I am fine with the tower of madness. All I say is link the activities to the stuff that stays behind, or make the stuff that stays behind an activity like turning the tower into a JP or dungeon and link the activities, achievements and rewards to that in stead of to the temporary destruction itself.

All your examples would stay and it would not make the world less ’ living’ because of that.

Rezz.8019:

The whole point of GW2 is to be open world rather than instanced. You can go play WoW or any other generic MMO game if you wanted it to be instanced. GW2 is supposed to be different.

Also, only content that’s only for TTS/Att guilds (on NA) is wurm.
Tequatl is very easy on any megaserver map really, as long as you are there half an hour or so before the start. And you should be there earlier, it is an epic fight and not something where you should show up last minute and grab the reward.

You do understand that WoW feels more open world with it’s seamless zones and mounts to travel in it vs GW2 with it’s instanced zones and loading screens when using fast-travel options?

Throwing a world boss in the ‘open world’ does not change much to that.

How about it they make the world it self more a real open world in stead of all instanced maps. But put more raid-like content (like what they try to do with world-bosses) more in instances. If you throw that in the open world it becomes to hard to really coordinate with a group meaning you need to make it easier. Then however people complain it’s to easy. Make it harder and it becomes to hard because coordination is missing.

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

Devata.6589:

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

~

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And to let most players be able to enjoy the content it still anyway has to be repeated for a few weeks but most times the story has still been made to actually build up each day until the end of that LS part. Like with the Tower of Madness.

I know that many players like the LS and I am one of those who defends it becouse I don’t want it to be scrapped so I want to give my opinion at it.

Edit:

Devata.6589:

Frostfang.5109:

Why are u starting to complain when u dont even know what season will hold yet, OP? Wait till its realeased at least Before u start…. Geez, plz givee the devs a break already.

Well, I’m looking forward to it with excitement!

He did not made a complain about LS S2 he made a complain about LS S1 and asking if we would get the same for LS S1 stating he would not like that, telling what he would like. So he is just giving feedback.

It can be useful to read more as just the title. Obviously many people don’t have high hopes for LS S1 because Anet said to improve LS S1 somewhere during it’s first half. It however didn’t really improve.

What I expect is that LS S2 will start with one or more new maps and I am will be happy for that. While not delivered in my preferred way. However I do expect the LS itself to stay temporary of nature. However, lets hope they indeed make the needed changes and we will see the LS being permanent of nature.

Living Story Season 2 is a Big Mistake, sounds like a complaint to me… Also that most of the critics to the LS2 is based on how LS1 has been.
I think that the LS improved alot and as I said before there where alot of permanent content introduced after they promiced to have more permanent content.

For LA I already gave an example. They could have destroyed LA without many activities linked to it. But then link the activities to building up LS what could take multiple years. At this moment they are building up LA (see last patch) without our input. They could have done it the other way around.

Similar for Tower of madness. I mean it’s fine if we can fight them when it’s going on just don’t link real achievements and rewards to it so people don’t feel pressured to do it then. Now that the tower is gone the players can get involved in the after effects. Maybe the poison created mutated animals so we need to clean the world and fight the mutated animals while the fallen tower might have been turned into an new JP that we can do and has it’s own achievement and reward linked to it. Now that’s how I would like to see the LS and then we have an ever changing world but the temporary nature and it negative side-effects are gone.

Don’t forget Anet makes the story. The way the tower of madness story was written it would make sense we where part of the destruction and there are only limited after effects but because they create the story they could have easily done it in a way that it would make more sense that we are more involved in the after effects or at least link most events and all achievements and rewards to that part.

“I have played so many MMO’s where I defend a city but fails and in the story it gets ruined and captured and after the story I can return there as if nothing ever happened.”
That is the same in GW2. If nobody or not enough people cleaned the poison on that tower it would still be cleaned. It is not like your input makes a real difference. But I do understand what you mean. You are mainly talking about cosmetic changes in the world and I am not against that. It’s the temporary nature of the LS I have a problem with and then I am talking about the activities for the players, not the cosmetic changes to the world.

You should understand that most people that complain about temporary content are not complaining about the fact the LA got destroyed or anything like that. The problem is that the story and the activities are created in a way that those activities are temporary.

“I think that the LS improved alot and as I said before there where alot of permanent content introduced after they promised to have more permanent content. ”
The problem is that your definition of permanent is not the same as many of the complainers. Like I said. It’s fine that they destroyed LA and it’s fine that they build that tower but link the activities to the after effects of the poisoning or to the rebuilding of LA. Building up LA might eventually also be done (but can take many years) but turning the tower into a JP or maybe even a dungeon would mean permanent constant and activities that make up the LS. We would still have the LS and changing world you like so much. Just without the pressure of doing things now and not next month.

I think the idea of trait hunting is good and should have been there from the start. But it should not be behind time-gated content. It’s more something for what you can always do (or well almost always, if you have to kill an specific mob it might just be killed so you might need to wait a bid for it to re-spawn) also traditional quest (lines) would be good for this.

The current event system might not be so great for it.

Frostfang.5109:

Why are u starting to complain when u dont even know what season will hold yet, OP? Wait till its realeased at least Before u start…. Geez, plz givee the devs a break already.

Well, I’m looking forward to it with excitement!

He did not made a complain about LS S2 he made a complain about LS S1 and asking if we would get the same for LS S1 stating he would not like that, telling what he would like. So he is just giving feedback.

It can be useful to read more as just the title. Obviously many people don’t have high hopes for LS S1 because Anet said to improve LS S1 somewhere during it’s first half. It however didn’t really improve.

What I expect is that LS S2 will start with one or more new maps and I am will be happy for that. While not delivered in my preferred way. However I do expect the LS itself to stay temporary of nature. However, lets hope they indeed make the needed changes and we will see the LS being permanent of nature.

Milferd.3780:

Just went into Keg Brawl and group of players were not playing the game instead they were cooperating in doing achievements. To me achievements earned this way are worthless so I have no interest doing them that way. So basically I am robbed of the chance to enjoy a good Keg Brawl round of competition as these achievement without earning it types hog the game. I guess I could stay and be a troll and interrupt what they are doing but I choose not to.
What to do about this? Now that daily does not contain activities this might be a problem.

I don’t know what the achievements are but in many cases the nature of the achievements (and the reward) are to blame for such things.
Lets for example take a capture the flag example. If you would have a game with capture the flag then an achievement should be something like deliver x flags, not get killed x times. The first one would still be possible to cheat if the game allows you to set up your private parties (so then disable achievements for private parties) but the second one provokes you letting yourself get killed and so ’ cheating’.

So best is to make better achievements in the future, or not making achievements for this sort of 1vs1 activities.

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

Whas writing a long text here but the forums crashed or something when I posted it… So I don’t wanna sit for ten more minutes to write a new reply.

So short reply is ‘I realy like the Living Story and I don’t ever want it to go away. More Permanent content was promised in the middle of LS1 and as promiced it was delivered. Just becouse you don’t find it enough does not mean it isn’t there and permanent. Now they have said that they have learned alot from doing LS1 and will make LS2 even a better experience. So saying that there will be no Permanent content in LS2 is what I think total BS but I don’t mind becouse I am one of those who realy liked LS1 and I like the temporary content as it ups the feeling of an ever evolving world and that the story goes on and isn’t just trapped in time.’

Can you explain me how the LS (the activities that the players do) being of a temporary nature gives it more the feeling of an ever evolving world in stead of if the stuff the players did would be permanent?

For me adding new activities, achievements and rewards (basically the 3 elements that make up the LS at this moment) that are permanent including with other permanent staying content makes the world just as evolving. So please tell me why in you idea removing those activities after 2 weeks to a month makes it feel more of an evolving world?

I am also happy for you that you like the LS as it is the the fact is that many players dislike it the way it is.

ekimsfree.9406:

Woe is you. There hundreds of thousands of players and people always seem to want this game catered for them.

On your time, when you can, what you want; I keep reading this over and over. And then add the fact that we don’t know S2 entails at all so assuming they aren’t new dungeons or zones or bosses or whatever else you want is just silly.

“On your time, when you can, what you want.” You just forget that ‘you’ should be replaced with any players. You, me, them everybody! Fact is that there are many people complain about this.. or like you say “I keep reading this over and over.”.

“Assuming they aren’t new dungeons or zones or bosses or whatever else you want is just silly.” Me to, I also don’t see many people assuming that.

tolunart.2095:

IndigoSundown.5419:

If you’re looking for an example of devs actually changing their tune, look at max stat gear.

So you expect the devs to lay out their plans for the game years before release and never deviate from that plan, even when the players ask for something different?

They have a responsibility to create a game for millions of players, not just you. The devs are only human and don’t always make the best decisions, but these decisions are made for the health of the game as a whole to increase gem-sales, not to pacify whoever yells the loudest.

Not that the devs are to blame for anything. They likely would love to just make the best game they can. I think SAB is a good example of what type of content you get if you just give devs room to do what they want without having to worry about monetizing. However because this game has because a cash-shop game the reality is that the devs can’t just deliver the best content they would like.

They can’t make content and just say “I want my content to drop / reward this and that” because then the monetize people say "no we need to sell that in the shop.

After the success of the SAB 1 the monetize people also had there go with SAB for release 2. Not saying release 2 was bad, far from but you did notice the changes and they where not for the better.

Wanze.8410:

DreamyAbaddon.3265:

1. Opening up with new permanent zones is awesome with tons of new Dynamic Events and jumping puzzle to experience.

2. Keeping contents permanent is exactly what I want so the game expands with more things to do instead of taking things to do out.

3. Experiencing the Story should always be part of the permanent content to allow everyone to experience it at their own time so character development is told properly.

But for now, assuming Season 2 will be like Season 1 in terms of temporary content driven story… I think it’s a big mistake…

How often do you enjoy dynamic events and jps in Southsun Cove these days?

The Dynamic events there are zergy so I never do them. The JP is one of my favourites so I do it weekly (mostly multiple times a week) and once in a while we also get there for the guild-missions.

But what’s the point of your question? How often do you go to any specific many. Many maps you will likely not visit very often however it’s still good that you can visit them and do the activities. You might never go to south-sun because you don’t like that JP, I however do and I do it whenever I want. You might go somewhere else to do what you want and if there would be a reward that I would like to have I always have the possibility to go do that whenever I feel like it.

With the living story you have to do it now or miss out on the activities, achievements and rewards. No matter if you like to do it (now) or not. Coming back because you liked it or because you want to do it at another time is no option.

Corax.7381:

Why do people seem to think nothing permanent was added in S1? Because TA Aetherpath is hard/annoying and no one runs it, so it wasn’t actually added? That wasn’t all that was added. You don’t need a whole new zone (though it seems like we’re getting at least one with S2) to add more Dynamic Events/Renown Hearts, Jumping Puzzles, etc, which ANet did in S1. I saw enough changes upon my return – like kittening Lion’s Arch being completely destroyed, the new Events/ruins of the Nightmare Tower in Kessex Hills, the Aetherblade JP – to know that, hey, something happened in the time I was gone. I didn’t need a whole new zone to understand that ANet had actually updated their game.

On the topic of temporary content though, I like that they’re bringing at least some of it back (Festival of the Four Winds, maybe Dragon Bash) so that I can get those achievements I missed. They should continue in this way, so long as it makes sense story-wise.

Even if the story part of S2 is temporary, ANet may increase the time you have to experience this content. 2 weeks is a bit short, but a month is better. The question is, will people get bored of it or will it offer enough rewards to keep them interested for all that time? Hopefully.

Who said nothing permanent was added? The nature of the LS S1 was temporary content and yes they did throw in some permanent stuff along the way. But the very nature is temporary.

You say they can increase the time for the activities in LS S2 so you expect the same in S2 as in LS1 if it comes to temporary content. Well that’s what many people here are saying. Not that nothing permanent is or will be added.

Some people say the story can’t be permanent because it would not be a real story. That however is nonsense. Anet makes the story itself and so it’s easy to make the story in a way so that all stuff is permanent. Lets take the destruction of LA. They put the activities, achievements and rewards around the destruction and the direct consequences. However they could have also make Scarlet destroy LA and make the LS (the stuff we do) around building up LA and the long-term effects of the destruction what could take multiple years. So doing it exactly the other way around as what they did now. Story wise it would make perfect sense and you get rid of the temporary nature of the LS.

Lets hope that is how they will do LS S2.

Nerelith.7360:

Maybe Living Story permanent content will be Like the destruction of Lion’s arch? I mean it’s still destroyed right?

But the LS itself where the activities, achievements and rewards surrounding the destruction. Those are all gone.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Considering a Dev stated Living Story Season Two will consist of permanent content, what is your source of information stating Season Two will be only temporary content?

He said they did listen to the community and that there would be permanent content in LS S2. He did not say that the LS would consist out of permanent content and he said the same as Anet said after the first complains (very early in LS S1) about the temporary content of LS started to roll in.

The problem seems to be that if they throw in a new JP or a new map they consider the LS to be permanent and while throwing in such permanent content (expansion-like content I guess) is positive is does not make the LS itself permanent. Lets hope they make that change with LS S2 but it’s not what that dev said.

The LS season 2 will for sure get some new zones in fact I am pretty sure it will start with opening one or more new zones. What in all honestly does not make me so happy as I would rather see them putting that in a expansion and step away from the cash-shop promoting LS.

Anyway, that said, while I am sure we get some new zones I am not so sure that the nature of the LS itself will not still be temporary content.

Me and with me many others did suggest permanent content as LS since the beginning of the LS and did foresee the problems of people getting burned out by the temporary stuff. Anet said they listened and would do something about it but they didn’t. Complains only grew and well ’ we where right’.

So now with LS S2 sure they might throw in a new zone (and I am happy for getting new zones, let there be no mistake about that) but I am afraid most of the LS will just stay temporary. Temporary activities, temporary achievements and temporary rewards. Basically the worst about the LS because it gives you the pressure of doing it now or losing out on the activities, achievements and rewards forever.

So far for ‘play the way you want’. However that is something that is the least in this game. If you play the way you want you get punished for it, or to be more exact you get rewarded for doing it another way. Don’t want to grind gold? Well then you are already multiple steps behind, don’t run with the zerg in WvW then you won’t get the 10 required achievements (This season I decided to just play WvW the way I wanted and now I have 5 of the required 10 achievements), don’t complete the LS achievements list now? Miss out on the activities, achievements and rewards forever.

So I do hope that they learned of it and that the LS S2 will be permanent but I am afraid it won’t. However I am sure we will get new zones and I think we will have at least one within a few days.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Sub or no sub, cash shop or no cash shop. The beauty of GW2 is that if you quit, you can always come back. The account exists until you get banned, or request a termination. The only problem by leaving is that if you choose to come back, you’re further behind everyone else in terms of wealth.

Getting back to the cash shop discussion, a lot of complainers don’t understand that everything is optional. I know of people who never spent money beyond the initial box price, and are enjoying the game as much as big Gem buyer like myself. I can afford microtransactions, so I choose to spend on fluff. If Anet does something really great (i.e. Cantha), I spend more. My money goes to NCSoft, which I hope in turn goes back to Anet to develop more content.

It’s a game everything is optional that does not make it right.
BTW it’s funny how you say you want to support them and so buy gems. I want to support them and so will not buy gems. Now if they would release a good expansions I would buy it and maybe even the CE (that maybe was for sure like a year ago but I sort of lost my trust a little, will depend on the expansion and there story how they continue).

And again, if it effects you completely depends on your play-style. The cash-shop focus did take elements from the game and did turn the game into a gold-grind. I don’t think that are positives but maybe some people are fine with that.

Amnariel.3659:

Lheimroo.2947:

Amnariel.3659:

-The lack of chalange:Let’s see the current event the Gauntlet’s last boss Liadri the Concealing Dark:I think she made plenty of Neurons got destroyed from every player who tried her and many angry Alt+F4 or broken keyboards.
But she is actually not hard at all or hardcore gamecontent as many fans say.If you know the right pattern it’s pretty easy even with gambits.To be honest I spent over 200 ticket on her but I done her.
What I wish to point out the game can be hard for first,anything but if you get the knowledge you can manage to defeat any enemy without a single hit and I am not joking and I think many can approve this.

I’m sorry to derail this a bit by nitpicking this one point, but this is a personal pet peeve of mine.

You spent two hundred tokens practicing Liadri and YOU CLAIM SHE WAS EASY?

Kitten. Man. Get some perspective. There are people who log fewer hours to learn how not to crash a helicopter. Of course everything gets easier with practice; that doesn’t mean it was always easy from the start.

I personally think the whole gauntlet was and remains a breath of fresh air. It’s exactly the kind of content we should be getting – and getting rewarded for finishing. What do we get, though, for Liadri? A mini and.. jack else. Heck, I wouldn’t be complaining about ascended if it was earned through a series of Liadri-style challenges instead of dull-kitten boring grind.

Yes,she IS easy but I was stupid to not read the guides on dulfy and other sites.Now I got how to fight her and how to ’’dance’’ with her and it’s easy peasy(I could been finish her in maximum 30-40 tokens if I start reading instead of noobing :-( ),in my opinion challenge means something kitten every try not just accomodate yourself to a standard.I really dislike this mechanic in MMORPGs like that pattern style…bosses should have casting animations or just instant hits(not instant kills)against you can prepare and anticipate and not fights like:Step1:Now Move left. Step2:Now move Right.Step3:Now attack.Step4:Now Dodge.I think Wildstar will be my game too,with living action not just patters.

More randomness in AI is indeed good and something I suggested before. BTW what I have seen from Wildstar it will have the same, maybe even worse as you are not fighting the boss but the telegraphs.

Zylonite.5913:

Lheimroo.2947:

Ionut.2307:

I agree. This is why I would prefer a sub. Paying those 15 bucks a month and being sure that the devs are working to make the game better and fun, instead of creating the next bunny ears in the cash shop. If the game is poor, I simply stop paying.

There used to be some great MMO’s with subs. Not one of those games was working against you. Because that’s how I feel about GW2. I’m playing against the game and not the content.

I wish I could agree with you, but subs games are duplicitous too.

Usually a sub game or sub player offers a couple different justifications for the sub price – premium content or increased quantity of content, and inclusivity; ie that rewards are all included ‘in game’ for the sub price.

Neither of those is true nowadays.

Take WoW – a nine month hiatus on ‘content’ before the release of it’s Cataclysm expansion, and currently what is it – 8 months and on-going? before the release of it’s next. Subscription prices are ongoing during all of that time; you also don’t receive any kind of discount for the expansion prices for paying a sub for all those content-less months.

There’s no sub game that releases more content objectively than many of the f2p/b2p games out there. As for premium quality, that’s subjective but .. let’s just say that I’d lean towards content being of a relatively evenish quality between sub and f2p/b2p games.

As for inclusivity of content for the sub price – don’t make me laugh; sub games sell services and special items in their cash shops too. No such thing.

I’m not even going to get into the topic of how subscriptions can force a game to be designed with deliberate and meaningless timesinks.

So.. take it all together, and what do you get for your sub fee? Bupkiss aside of access, which most games – not even MMOs only! – include for free to their multiplayer.

The difference between a sub MMO and cash-shop MMO is not about which one has more contents. In a sub MMO, the focus is the design of attractive contents that satisfies the player’s demands (hardcore or casual) to keep those subscribers happy. In a cash-shop MMO is goal is to design contents around the cash-shop items and sell more gems. Both models work can work great IMO, but don’t have the same expectations from a cash-shop MMO compared to a sub.

But the people playing GW2 did not go for a cash-shop game they went for a B2P game but got an cash-shop game.

While I would still dislike it I would expect this from a F2P game and so would not be complaining about it on the forums. Just maybe suggest they use another model in the beta forums but thats about it.

cesmode.4257:

Devata.6589:

“But its not a game breaking experiencing killing issue.” That completely depends on your game-play.
In most MMO’s the way I played was usually driven by chasing down rewards or items in the game. Being it while crafting and hunting down recipes or items I needed, or hunting down mini’s or mounts and so on.

That has simply been removed from GW2 and turned into a gold-grind to benefit the cash-shop.

So yes it can very well be a “game breaking experiencing killing issue.”

“Things like dev direction, mechanics, etc…those are gameplay breaking.” Yeah and those get influenced by the way a game gets monetized. Is the question “how do we get people to buy gems” then you implement other mechanics and take another direction then if the question is “how do we get people to buy out next expansion”. Living world being a perfect example of a direction that seems to be related to the cash-shop focus.

Would they focus on releasing a new expansion every year then you would likely already have seen new maps with new DE and new dungeons and have a better overall game because a game-play element as hunting down items in the game would be there. In addition you might be able to visit a barber to cut your hair instead of grinding gold to change the hair. (I don’t count buying gems as game-play).

After there released they suddenly went completely cash-shop. That became apparent about half a year in. There where some negatives at launch already (like all mini’s being in the cash-shop) but most where not extremely bad or where not noticeable (I for example did expect there where also mini’s in the game itself) but then after about half a year things really started to take a turn for the worse.

So most of the thinks you talk about may very well be linked to that cash-shop focus.

I am not waiting for GW3. That was in reaction to another person talking about GW3.
And no GW3 would sell way less. That was my point.

If what you say is true then the game teeters on pay to win and I dont think anyone would agree with that assessment.

The fact that they push ads in your face to purchase from the gemstore has no bearing on whether or not you’ll enjoy killing a baddy in a dungeon or wasting your time in LS. The fact that theres a new dress to buy in the gem store has no impact on your fun in WvW.

Now, if youre talking baout the gem to gold conversion, thats slightly different but still very much debatable. When I played, I acquired tons of materials from efficient farming routes and spots. I just played the game, very boring because of the grindy nature, but I was able to accumlate a ton of materials without dropping a dime into gem to gold conversion to purchase off of the TP. I stopped playing seriously about 5 months ago, for half year prior to that I played on and off, amassing maybe 1100 hours. So in 2 years, 1100 hours is pretty average for someone that bought the game at launch. I didnt play 24/7. Its not hard to accumulate what you need, aside from precursors.

For you maybe it doesn’t for other it does. An item in the cash-shop is not in the world and it devalues the items that are in the world. So if you like to hunt them down you take away that content. If it’s P2W also depends on your goals, if you go for cosmetics then I guess you could consider it P2W but if you go for kills then it’s less the case.

And like you say “When I played, I acquired tons of materials from efficient farming routes and spots. I just played the game, very boring because of the grindy nature,” The cash-shop helps to create that grold-grind and like you say that is boring. So it effects the game in many negative ways.

Rauderi.8706:

-_- Cash shop is not the problem. …Well, not entirely. Development will likely follow the dollars, which leads to more stuff sold in the cash shop.

The bigger problem is a lack of solid, enduring content being put out for us. Possible correlation to the cash shop, but not proven cause.

That Other Game (y’know, the one whose head-start beings kinda soon) has a development team doing what Living Story should have been. Rather than make global, disjointed events, they have a separate story track and are adding to it over time.

So, instead of downing Zhaitan as the end-game accomplishment, we should be getting more Personal Story and less Living World.

Or an expansion, we should get one of those. That’d be nice.

“-_- Cash shop is not the problem. …Well, not entirely. Development will likely follow the dollars, which leads to more stuff sold in the cash shop.
The bigger problem is a lack of solid, enduring content being put out for us. Possible correlation to the cash shop, but not proven cause.”

So what you say here is: ‘The cash-shop is not the problem. Well it is but we just can’t proof it.’

You are correct, we can only use common sense to get that conclusion. However when GW2 came with the news “if we do this right there will be no expansions” I did get worried because common sense told me it would mean a cash-shop-focus and we would get much of.. well the stuff we did see over the last year.

I am not a fan of the personal story as don’t play a mmo to play a single-player game but I do agree on the expansions. What we would have gotten if they had focused on expansions to generate the income.

cesmode.4257:

Devata.6589:

Corpus Christi.2057:

@cesmode Totally agree both with you and the OP. I loved the idea of GW2 at the beginning, but with time, the direction taken by the devs proved to be demolishing for the game.
I do hope, though, that GW3 is better thought out in advance.

Only thing they can do is improve GW2. I say it for over a year now and keep repeating it. There main problem is the cash-shop focus. 2 other big problems is the quick and dirty solutions (development term), most in your face examples are instanced maps and invisible walls but many of the bugs are likely also coming from that as well. Lastly wanting to be different just for the sake of being different and being stubborn about it.

GW3 would likely sell really good so improve those core problems and then we might end up with a better product. Don’t and we might end up with a failed product.

I dont think the “in your face” cash shop marketing and ads are essentially a problem. Its annoying, and its definately noticeably being pushed at you when you load up the launcher. But its not a game breaking experiencing killing issue.

Things like dev direction, mechanics, etc…those are gameplay breaking. Sigh. The game launched and was so fantastic. I was in heaven. Finally a game made for someone like me. Then they turned their focus to the new tier of gear, and then living story. All attention from open world DEs that the game launched with, and dungeons and all..all of that attention shifted to ascended and LS. Everything that I truely enjoyed was and still is neglected. 2 years later, parts of the core that the game launched with are neglected because arenanet has a vision, because they know better than we do. They say they listen, but really they just hear noise from us and ignore everything we are telling them.

And don’t hold your breathe on GW3 We are only 2 years into GW2. If they had any aspirations for GW3, I think they could start thinking of concepts in the next 2 years, but dev will take 5…so at earliest, 2019 or 2020. By that time, Im done with MMOs(or I better be).

Besides, after all the people they burned with GW2, all of the core Guild Wars fans, do they really want to take a stab at another Guild Wars game?

“But its not a game breaking experiencing killing issue.” That completely depends on your game-play.
In most MMO’s the way I played was usually driven by chasing down rewards or items in the game. Being it while crafting and hunting down recipes or items I needed, or hunting down mini’s or mounts and so on.

That has simply been removed from GW2 and turned into a gold-grind to benefit the cash-shop.

So yes it can very well be a “game breaking experiencing killing issue.”

“Things like dev direction, mechanics, etc…those are gameplay breaking.” Yeah and those get influenced by the way a game gets monetized. Is the question “how do we get people to buy gems” then you implement other mechanics and take another direction then if the question is “how do we get people to buy out next expansion”. Living world being a perfect example of a direction that seems to be related to the cash-shop focus.

Would they focus on releasing a new expansion every year then you would likely already have seen new maps with new DE and new dungeons and have a better overall game because a game-play element as hunting down items in the game would be there. In addition you might be able to visit a barber to cut your hair instead of grinding gold to change the hair. (I don’t count buying gems as game-play).

After there released they suddenly went completely cash-shop. That became apparent about half a year in. There where some negatives at launch already (like all mini’s being in the cash-shop) but most where not extremely bad or where not noticeable (I for example did expect there where also mini’s in the game itself) but then after about half a year things really started to take a turn for the worse.

So most of the thinks you talk about may very well be linked to that cash-shop focus.

I am not waiting for GW3. That was in reaction to another person talking about GW3.
And no GW3 would sell way less. That was my point.

Corpus Christi.2057:

@cesmode Totally agree both with you and the OP. I loved the idea of GW2 at the beginning, but with time, the direction taken by the devs proved to be demolishing for the game.
I do hope, though, that GW3 is better thought out in advance.

Only thing they can do is improve GW2. I say it for over a year now and keep repeating it. There main problem is the cash-shop focus. 2 other big problems is the quick and dirty solutions (development term), most in your face examples are instanced maps and invisible walls but many of the bugs are likely also coming from that as well. Lastly wanting to be different just for the sake of being different and being stubborn about it.

GW3 would likely not sell really good so improve those core problems and then we might end up with a better product. Don’t and we might end up with a failed product.

Chuo.4238:

I think the point of all this is:

I’d rather pay a sub for a GOOD game than play a crappy one for free…

Yeah maybe but GW2 was not for free. In a way a true B2P game is like a sub but you pay your sub about once a year by buying a expansion and you don’t have the timer over your head all the time. Want to buy the expansion a month or 2 later then you do that.

Iluth.6875:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Devata.6589:

It’s why I prefer a true B2P game.
Subs are putting a timer over your head and don’t really work anymore (after WoW there has not been one MMO so far that was successful with a sub model, thats 10 years of fails)

I hoped GW2 would be that B2P game but they turned cash-shop.

Can you name me one B2P MMO that doesn’t have microtransactions?

Can you name me one subscription based mmo that doesn’t have microtransactions? Both WoW and ESO have them.

The argument that sub based mmos are better because they don’t have korean mmo style cash shops no longer applies, because they all do.

That is not really fair as you can’t really compare for example WoW’s cash-shop and how it effects the game with GW2’s cash-shop. Of course WoW should not do that being a sub but they do sell mainly out of game items. Only ingame stuff they sell are something like 11 mini’s, 8 mounts and 3 hats. I am not saying that that is good but with likely > 100 of all those things in the game itself and no focus on selling them it’s not comparable to gw2’s cash-shop.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Devata.6589:

It’s why I prefer a true B2P game.
Subs are putting a timer over your head and don’t really work anymore (after WoW there has not been one MMO so far that was successful with a sub model, thats 10 years of fails)

I hoped GW2 would be that B2P game but they turned cash-shop.

Can you name me one B2P MMO that doesn’t have microtransactions?

GW1 did for a while at least. But I am not sure what the point is of your question? Most MMO’s are used as purely money grabbers we already came to that conclusion so now most MMO’s try to attack money in every possible way.
And why ask specifically for MMO’s because most non-MMO games (including games with MP) use a B2P model without any micro-transactions. Yes running cost on a MMO can be higher but putting out expansions and selling them would be easier and faster.

Besides there are forms of micro-transactions (to the side) that I am fine with and that are not bad for the game. Sell ‘out of game’ stuff like name-changer, world transfer, sex-changer, race-changer, full make-over (not only haircuts, that belongs in the game) and if provided enough characters from the start (so the same number as races or classes you have, whatever is highest, and getting an extra character slot when that number gets upped in an expansion) then even selling additional character slots can be fine.

I can even be fine with a form of VIP sub model if also that is completely ‘out of game’, I would then name it a beta sub as that is what it would provide, access to beta / test servers and maybe a temporary title or if new drops becomes available ingame that those people are able to get the drop (or buy the item if it sells from a vendor) a week sooner (as long as that does not effect the economy!).

So I am fine with those sort of things as long as they stay within some borders. Problem is most companies have shown they can’t handle it and will expand it way outside of those borders negatively effecting the game itself.

Main thingis that the box sales including expansion need to have the focus and the cash-shop is pure extra side-income.

Ionut.2307:

Lheimroo.2947:

Chuo.4238:

Basically, I believe the truth to be thus:

You don’t have to make a good MMO, or a fun MMO, to make tons of money off of people who forget what fun really is, and want to buy or grind their way to some collection of digital pixels that they don’t even actually own.

All you have to do is offer said pixels for money – and put a pretty face on it.

It’s sad, but I think that this is what most MMO’s have become. It’s no longer about the game – it’s about how much money you can make for the least amount of effort.

Which is why I find myself playing less and less…of all MMO’s…but especially this one

Preach on, brother. More and more – I just have this feeling that MMOs as a totality, the entire genre, is bunk. I don’t see any other game genre – single or multiplayer – using such persistently manipulative, cheesily anti-player tactics, and thriving for very long.

I agree. This is why I would prefer a sub. Paying those 15 bucks a month and being sure that the devs are working to make the game better and fun, instead of creating the next bunny ears in the cash shop. If the game is poor, I simply stop paying.

There used to be some great MMO’s with subs. Not one of those games was working against you. Because that’s how I feel about GW2. I’m playing against the game and not the content.

It’s why I prefer a true B2P game.
Subs are putting a timer over your head and don’t really work anymore (after WoW there has not been one MMO so far that was successful with a sub model, thats 10 years of fails)

I hoped GW2 would be that B2P game but they turned cash-shop.

Lheimroo.2947:

Chuo.4238:

Basically, I believe the truth to be thus:

You don’t have to make a good MMO, or a fun MMO, to make tons of money off of people who forget what fun really is, and want to buy or grind their way to some collection of digital pixels that they don’t even actually own.

All you have to do is offer said pixels for money – and put a pretty face on it.

It’s sad, but I think that this is what most MMO’s have become. It’s no longer about the game – it’s about how much money you can make for the least amount of effort.

Which is why I find myself playing less and less…of all MMO’s…but especially this one

Preach on, brother. More and more – I just have this feeling that MMOs as a totality, the entire genre, is bunk. I don’t see any other game genre – single or multiplayer – using such persistently manipulative, cheesily anti-player tactics, and thriving for very long.

MMO’s have become the money-makers in the eyes of money investors mainly because of WoW’s success. In reality many MMO’s fail to deliver (and thats mainly because the pure reason was to create a huge income. First MMO that is mainly based on creating just an awesome MMO and that ask fair prices will be the big money maker)

It’s also why you see so many games / franchise go MMO.

However I would not say you don’t see manipulative, cheesy anti-player tactics in other games. The whole DLC stuff is right in there as well. But I agree MMO’s are being used the most in that way.

It’s not strange that the one thing that was put in as a joke (so not with money as focus but just by some developers wanting to make something fun) is considered by many the best addition to GW2 so far. (SAB)

Star Ace.5207:

Devata.6589:

Star Ace.5207:

To be honest, the “permanent content” will 100% surely come. There are way too many new map entrances that are currently blocked, and too many already mentioned areas on the universal map that haven’t been opened yet. Only ONE Dragon has officially been “vanquished”. A new one was added to fight. There’s plenty of GW2 universe to be expanded upon. Just wait for it, for it will surely come in due time.

Can you seriously tell me that you don’t expect them to open up all of those inaccessible areas in the future (those will be tons of maps!) I actually am even hoping they open the Torment Realm (not on the official map, of course) at some point, which was fun back then.

Adding in new maps does not mean the temporary LS content becomes permanent. People ask for expansions or some for expansion-like content. That’s asking for maps and new races and so on. However when people ask for the LS to not be temporary anymore it’s exactly that. The LS not being a patch that releases some temporary available content, activities and rewards.

You’ll see-eventually many more maps will-open up. I am not talking about the “evolution” of maps like Kessex Hills or Lion’s Arch. Nor maps ala Southsun Cove. I am referring to those maps currently blacked out, but with named regions. They will surely open up permanently in due time (my “surely” is mostly my opinion rather than any “facts” I may have, but I am fairly convinced this will be the case.)

Living story is fine, IMHO-it’s also not mutually exclusive with future permanent content, as many of you seem to believe. They would know better than that, and we should know better than to think that all they will do moving forwards in this game is giving us LS updates with no more map expansions and “zero” permanent content (which isn’t factual either, as some permanent content and sizeable changes have been added over time.)

I did not say they would not come. They will come in fact most people had expected them already in season one. Personally I would even prefer them in expansions so Anet can earn money with expansions in stead of the cash-shop.

My point was just that if people complain about “temporary content” that it does not equal the lack of new expansion-like content. Most people complain about both but you said “To be honest, the “permanent content” will 100% surely come.” and then talked about new maps. So you seemingly referred to complains about temporary content and then said there where maps coming like f that would solve the temporary content problem but it doesn’t.

Summarized: The problem of temporary content is not just the lack of permanent content.

LS might be fine to you but not to many other.

Star Ace.5207:

To be honest, the “permanent content” will 100% surely come. There are way too many new map entrances that are currently blocked, and too many already mentioned areas on the universal map that haven’t been opened yet. Only ONE Dragon has officially been “vanquished”. A new one was added to fight. There’s plenty of GW2 universe to be expanded upon. Just wait for it, for it will surely come in due time.

Can you seriously tell me that you don’t expect them to open up all of those inaccessible areas in the future (those will be tons of maps!) I actually am even hoping they open the Torment Realm (not on the official map, of course) at some point, which was fun back then.

Adding in new maps does not mean the temporary LS content becomes permanent. People ask for expansions or some for expansion-like content. That’s asking for maps and new races and so on. However when people ask for the LS to not be temporary anymore it’s exactly that. The LS not being a patch that releases some temporary available content, activities and rewards.

CHIPS.6018:

Retsuko.2035:

JoeytheHutt.1742:

I dont understand why ppl have a problem with goodbye posts. I understand why Anet dont want them, but other players?

Because 99% of the goodbye posts are simply QQ posts (just like this thread), where OP is crying over what he/she didn’t like about the game. So instead of just moving on, he or she has to keep on posting and giving their reasons for why this game supposedly sucks.

Nobody cares if you dislike the game. If you can’t let go, it just proves you’ve been highly addicted.

Their reasons for not liking the game are often not even valid. Take for example the OP’s reason for the role a class play’s (The OP’s essay on multiplayer play). From half reading his/her post, it seems that queensdale champ train or Orr train, some casual dungeon and living story content was the most this OP has ever done.
Go into WvW and experience real combat at first hand and you’ll learn how important certain class roles are in real PvP based battles.

Only yourself can make the game as boring or as interesting and exciting as possible.

I was hardcore WvW on high tier servers. I was a commander that lead though TeamSpeak. But I eventually I got burnt out/bored. As fun as it was when I started, it eventually become the same thing over and over again.

Stack, Fire+blast, fight, stack, water+blast, portal bomb, fight, stack, fire+blast, etc

I am not saying WvW is not fun. But after doing “too much” of it, I realize it is indeed the same thing over and over again. The skill ceiling, even for WvW, is very low.

If the WvW skill ceiling is high there should be multiple type of zerg. Each zerg type would fulfill totally different roles in battle.

LOLWUT?

Yes it is true. If you look at RTSs like Rome: Total War, you see the players use a combination of different type of units. Each unit type has its strength and weakness. And each unit are to operate separately. They only come together if it is beneficial.

Instead, we only see in one kind of zerg in WvW. There are elementalist fields and mesmer portals. But there is only one kind of zerg. There is only one kind of zerg design. And in them there are elementalists and mesmers doing their thing.

There is no army formation possible. And after running this only ONE kind of zerg every day, using very similar tactics (after a while you would have seen everything), WvW gets boring.

That has a lot to do with the lack of roles in this game. No not saying we need the holy trinity I say we need roles and that can be more then just tank, healer and dps.

In addition there should be room for more tactics in GW2. Other ways to get inside a keep (colour your own dolyak in another colour and hide inside it, player collision detection to create a human stair and more of that sort of things) lastly it would be good to have a more sandbox map where guilds build there own castles and fight / defend that. Possible even with guild-member housing inside there borders. Then there would be a reason to fight and defend in stead of only just flipping flags and moving on.

CHIPS.6018:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Nerelith.7360:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Drakent.9605:

I also agree with the OP,

GW2 feels more like a facebook video game version, is all about collecting dyed and customs and then show them off . GW2 should be call the other facebook, is just a social game.

The question is then, what should it be? I mean, why do we play MMOs? To play with other people. Why do we collect loot? To show them on our characters.

Doesn’t that make every MMO ‘just a social game’?

Not quite. See when I play World of Warcraft it is to level up My character, see what skills she developes. See How those skills Interact with Mobs, so that I can improve my skill… I am playing 3 Monks. Yes 3. there is a reason that if you Know World of warcraft you don’t really need explained, if you don’t or haven’t played well..no need to explain.

In gw2. By level 25 or 30 I have seen all the skills. Mostly after that it’s all refinement. Applying the right traits with the right polishing of already seen and experienced skills.

“ok so Now aftert I use skill A, I get 5 seconds of vigor…. umm… " Yes, I am sure that those 5 seconds of vigor will be useful…but it’s NOT the same thing as Playing to level 85, and seeing an entirely new skill you’ve never seen before.

I think what makes this game more a 3d facebook is…after you have seen ALL the skills… you can Mostly spend your time chatting.." so…How was that Birthday party? " * Kill Troll*.." was good I got a new Blender.." * Kill Oak*… bla bl bla… * Kill bacon*…

The way I think of it…. World of Warcraft and the games that came before it, Including the Original Guild Wars…were games… and you socialized In them as a secondary thing..the primary thing was…exploring the game..and it’s skills.

for me Guild wars 2… feels Like… an excuse to get together with friends you make in the game… the Game itself is beginning, at least for me… to feel Like…something attached to a 3d social engine.

Not sure if I made sense….

When I Played EverQuest… a friend of Mine asked me that played with me." How would you discribe World of Warcraft?" I said " hmmm… as EverQuest Lite… with pretty colors."

I Guess I would describe gw2 is…" World of warcraft lite… with a More casual social, hey let’s all hang out while we kill karkas" feel."

Playing the game is beginning to feel like an afterthought.

To me, the socialising is the primary thing in MMOs, because frankly, gameplay is normally subpar to that of console games.

I havn’t played enough of WoW to understand what you mean, but even at 80, I’m still thinking of new builds. I do agree that the theory crafting is not very deep in here, its all just DPS stacking in PvE, and it’s quite awkward to do without a DPS meter however.

But to the average player, I’m not really sure it actually matters. For example, if you ask around in why people camp GS on warriors now, most people will just basically go ‘because Nike said so’. The average player doesn’t theory craft, because frankly, it takes hours to do on a spreadsheet and that’s not everyone’s cup of tea.

In pure action games, yes consoles are superior. But for many other types of games, like RTS, a computer is the only way to go.

So it all depends on what type of game, and how they are implemented.

What do you mean with pure action? Arcade brainless shooting? Then yeah maybe on the other hand UT (PC) was still one of the best in that genre.

But overall a console is more build for ‘relaxing’ while PC-gamers want more depth and tactics and challenges in a game. So if with ‘pure action games’ you refer to ’ brainless shooters’ I can see where you are coming from but then I still look at a game like UT that proofs that even in that genre the PC can lead. But totally off-topic (or I do not see the connection?) I think so lets leave it with that and turn back to the topic.

The terminator,
Big momma,
My little friend,
Apocalypse,
Little whiner

Beldin.5498:

Devata.6589:

It’s the same with the giveaways to gem-buyers. The ‘we love you more’ don’t mind this game is sold as B2P not F2P still we love you gem-buyers more. And good job helping to destroy the game.. Keep up the good work because you know, we love your more. And now advertisements in your face in a B2P game. Extremely rude.

Oh come on .. really ? Do you also complain that you never get free drinks in a bar or restaurant where you never give any tips, while the regular guests that always give good tips gets sometimes maybe a free drink ?

I did give good tips by buying the Collectors Edition. The way to give a good tip in a B2P game. They simply never wanted to sell me another drink so while willing I was not able giving them another tip.

Nerelith.7360:

I Just feel that for every player that actually puts uip a goodbye thread..maybe 10 others don’t bother, and just leave. The forums are FULL of players that tell the devs where there is enough weakness to dissatisfy, but the player still stays. it seems to me that information from Players that are so dissatisfied that they go over the line, anmd actually walk away, would be more valuable information, In My opinion.

I agree with most with the opposite of the last part. Don’t only look at it when people go away but also when they give early warning. I complained about the cash-shop focus more then a year ago. Now it is a hot topic and partly the reason why many people leave.

People who ask for expansions or permanent content is also something that many people did ask for at the beginning of LS S1, not a year later there are likely people that leave because of it.

More specific roles (I think thats what OP in a way also talks about) is a complain on the forums for a long time. When you start listening when people leave you are to late imho. They should indeed listen to him / her but just kitten well to those that do not yet leave.

About the question if the devs should want this information. I often get the request to fill in a form to tell them why I install a product. So that shows that many companies to want that information.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Nerelith.7360:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Drakent.9605:

I also agree with the OP,

GW2 feels more like a facebook video game version, is all about collecting dyed and customs and then show them off . GW2 should be call the other facebook, is just a social game.

The question is then, what should it be? I mean, why do we play MMOs? To play with other people. Why do we collect loot? To show them on our characters.

Doesn’t that make every MMO ‘just a social game’?

Not quite. See when I play World of Warcraft it is to level up My character, see what skills she developes. See How those skills Interact with Mobs, so that I can improve my skill… I am playing 3 Monks. Yes 3. there is a reason that if you Know World of warcraft you don’t really need explained, if you don’t or haven’t played well..no need to explain.

In gw2. By level 25 or 30 I have seen all the skills. Mostly after that it’s all refinement. Applying the right traits with the right polishing of already seen and experienced skills.

“ok so Now aftert I use skill A, I get 5 seconds of vigor…. umm… " Yes, I am sure that those 5 seconds of vigor will be useful…but it’s NOT the same thing as Playing to level 85, and seeing an entirely new skill you’ve never seen before.

I think what makes this game more a 3d facebook is…after you have seen ALL the skills… you can Mostly spend your time chatting.." so…How was that Birthday party? " * Kill Troll*.." was good I got a new Blender.." * Kill Oak*… bla bl bla… * Kill bacon*…

The way I think of it…. World of Warcraft and the games that came before it, Including the Original Guild Wars…were games… and you socialized In them as a secondary thing..the primary thing was…exploring the game..and it’s skills.

for me Guild wars 2… feels Like… an excuse to get together with friends you make in the game… the Game itself is beginning, at least for me… to feel Like…something attached to a 3d social engine.

Not sure if I made sense….

When I Played EverQuest… a friend of Mine asked me that played with me." How would you discribe World of Warcraft?" I said " hmmm… as EverQuest Lite… with pretty colors."

I Guess I would describe gw2 is…" World of warcraft lite… with a More casual social, hey let’s all hang out while we kill karkas" feel."

Playing the game is beginning to feel like an afterthought.

To me, the socialising is the primary thing in MMOs, because frankly, gameplay is normally subpar to that of console games.

I havn’t played enough of WoW to understand what you mean, but even at 80, I’m still thinking of new builds. I do agree that the theory crafting is not very deep in here, its all just DPS stacking in PvE, and it’s quite awkward to do without a DPS meter however.

But to the average player, I’m not really sure it actually matters. For example, if you ask around in why people camp GS on warriors now, most people will just basically go ‘because Nike said so’. The average player doesn’t theory craft, because frankly, it takes hours to do on a spreadsheet and that’s not everyone’s cup of tea.

“because frankly, gameplay is normally subpar to that of console games.”

You mean ‘as non MMO games’? Consoles are rubbish with a game-play mechanism meant for people that are lying on a bank while playing a game. It may not be to hard to to much in depth. For games in general depends on what game-play you are looking for. Personally I don’t play an mmo for the action of killing (then I prefer FPS games), more for group-play and building / customizing some nice things.

Nerelith.7360:

I think that we may need to define our terms about what " Permanent Content" means to different people?

See for me “Permanent” means a new part of the map has been opened up for exploration… that wasn’t there before… even if that is subsequently destroyed later in Living Story… that doesn’t mean that it was not " permanent" when it was opened up.

Also “Permanent” for me means New skills… or New weapons, or… new classes.

All of these for me sum up what I mean when I say " Permanent."

Now if the devs decide to add a new Laurel merchant and put her in the Swamp camp near Shadow Behemoth.. and never remove her…she may very well BE “Permanent.” but… that isn’t what I mean when I say " Anet is slow in adding “permanent” content to The game.

Some may consider the “destruction” of Lion ’s Arch" as permanent for the Living Story…. but for me.. that kinda falls with adding a new laurel vendor to the swamp camp Near Shadow Behemoth. Maybe it IS permanent but… meh….

That’s MY opinion.

Obviously I would like to see new maps, classes, weapons, new (fun) crafts, other additions like guild-hall, housing, mounts, PvP PvE maps and so on and so on. However I would much rather see that in an expansion every year then during the LS, that they can use that to earn the money instead of this dammed cash-shop focus that is destroying the game for a long time time.

However if we are talking about the LS patches then permanent for me is mainly NOT temporary. The whole problem with temporary is that people feel the pressure to do / get things now before it’s gone. From a marketing perspective that’s of-course the hole point if it come to cash-shop items. However from a game-play standpoint it’s just not fun. The feeling is annoying, if you then start doing it all it becomes a grind and feels like a bad job and if you ignore it you miss out on the stuff. That’s why it is so bad.

And then the bad excuse that it is needed to create a living world what is total nonsense. Have an event just going on (you see npc’s build something) and then add in the activities and rewards later when it’s build then you have an changing world but all the stuff is permanent. An NPC that sells something temporary is the same problem.

What you describe is more an expansion of the game what obviously is also a from a permanent content but when I complain about the temporary nature of the LS I am really talking about the problem that all that stuff is temporary in stead of permanent.

Nerelith.7360:

Dee Jay.2460:

I agree wholeheartedly with the OP.

Core game-play in Guild Wars 2, aside from WvW which has some redeeming qualities, is absolutely weak.

And it’s a shame, because at the core the game is good. But it’s like ANet has no concept of what to do with it, no comprehensive vision or understanding of what they hope to achieve. The core game-play is simply not evolving. And that’s just not good enough.

When I think back at my time playing WoW or SWTOR, I have a number of great memories to draw from. Memories of great moments, of great successes or embarrassing failures.

But in Guild Wars 2 I have no such thing. Even after 15.000 achievement points, 3 Legendaries and completing pretty much all of the content I find the entire experience to be very forgettable.

As said, WvW is the only exception to this and it’s embarrassing how neglected it has been.

Sadly I Must concur about lack of memorable gw2 moments. I remember my first day arriving at " The Outlands" at " a game which shall not be named. " I remember my first train ride from Ironforge,… Going before that I remember being paid enough for a hew Naboo mansion as an image designer in Star wars galaxies. I remember Playing My Storms Controller against kittens on City of Heroes.. when it was Pay a monthly to play. I remember getting eaten by Grimfeather in North karana druid rings as I waited for someone that offered me 50 Platinum for a TP out of the place… Losing my level.. and the ability to do group TP’s to the karanas.

I think back, and what do all these games have in common? All of then required a Monthly. The ONLY game I remember a lot of that had no Monthly… was Guild Wars.

I used to say GW1. As opposed to GW2. But lately as i look back, aside from the names of the classes… the names of some skills, I see very little to connect Guild Wars to Guild wars 2. It’s almost as if the two games were made by different people with different philosophies.

Guild wars sold you Boxes… then sold you expansions… each which was a complete game…. Guild wars 2 has…Living Story. Not an expansion…. But it DOES have RMT… so there’s that.

If you love RMT then Guild wars 2 is an awesome game….. If you love RMT.

Seamless maps also help a lot for memories. At least I do remember from multiple mmo’s when I went into a new map for the first time.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Devata.6589:

Maxite.6102:

I appreciated the message. I don’t constantly watch the gemstore, so a heads up was nice.

You are taking on like they repeatedly sent out a "Buy gems now, pls!!!’ spam. Thats silly. When it gets to that point, sure complain. But acting like this simple message spoiled your evening makes you look goofy.

Yeah very goofy if you forget for a moment that most of the negative stuff in the game is because the cash-shop focus. So no that sort of advertisement I do not like to see in a B2P game.

It’s the same with the giveaways to gem-buyers. The ‘we love you more’ don’t mind this game is sold as B2P not F2P still we love you gem-buyers more. And good job helping to destroy the game.. Keep up the good work because you know, we love your more. And now advertisements in your face in a B2P game. Extremely rude.

Anyway lets hope it’s indeed desperation and that the cash-shop sales are going even more down. That could result in a better game in the long run.

Knowing NCSoft, they’ll just shut the game down.

The problem isn’t with this one advert. If they read the forums at all, which they do, they’ll know that tension on the gem store at the moment is at an all-time high.

Yet what dot hey do? Oh that’s right! Let’s put an in-game advert at the players just to see how vexed they can reaaally be!

But hopefully, if the gem shop is indeed becoming unsustainable, then they’ll start thinking of DLCs and expansions.

The “problem” is players flipping out over the “focus on the gemstore” in the last month or two because there’s no living story content for them to latch onto and kitten about. How are the advertisements of new, and returning, items in the gem store any different than advertisements of new and returning items in say…. Walmart? Do you complain about all the advertisements at the outside doors when you walk in? Or do you ignore them like some players do what’s on the launcher and social media? And do you then flip out when they run an audio track to the general store announcing that there are new limited edition items as well as the return of previously popular items?

Nah I did go for this game because it was B2P not F2P and I started complaining about the cash-shop focus a long time ago. Have a look at my first post where I talked about the cash-shop. Back when the focus did not yet seem to high and I still believed GW2 was a true B2P game.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/suggestions/Additional-Game-Version-Pay-Per-Month/first#post831775

Here is my first complain about the cash-shop focus.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/RL-rich-ingame-Rich-and-vice-versa/page/2#post1840985

That was April 2013. More as a year ago. Then I did still get many resistance but you are right lately finally more people start to notice that much of the thinks they dislike are connected to the cash-shop.

Well at least there is one nice thing about that. I can now say. “I told you so!”. You know to all those people who then where still disagreeing with me and by now left the game or are complaining about it as well.