Guild Wars 2

CureForLiving.5360:

Devata.6589:

lordkrall.7241:

Can I have your stuff?

Why You don’t like the game enough to play (sorry, grind gold to buy) the stuff for yourself?

Well in my case it’s just that if I were to get his stuff I’d have even more stuff to have fun with.
So can I have some?

‘Playing’ to get the stuff is supposed to be the fun part.

So in a way everybody who is asking for OP’s stuff is agreeing with him.

Maxite.6102:

I appreciated the message. I don’t constantly watch the gemstore, so a heads up was nice.

You are taking on like they repeatedly sent out a "Buy gems now, pls!!!’ spam. Thats silly. When it gets to that point, sure complain. But acting like this simple message spoiled your evening makes you look goofy.

Yeah very goofy if you forget for a moment that most of the negative stuff in the game is because the cash-shop focus. So no that sort of advertisement I do not like to see in a B2P game.

It’s the same with the giveaways to gem-buyers. The ‘we love you more’ don’t mind this game is sold as B2P not F2P still we love you gem-buyers more. And good job helping to destroy the game.. Keep up the good work because you know, we love your more. And now advertisements in your face in a B2P game. Extremely rude.

Anyway lets hope it’s indeed desperation and that the cash-shop sales are going even more down. That could result in a better game in the long run.

Well maybe sales are going down and they are desperate.
Lets hope so then maybe this hole cash-shop focus might end and they might turn back to expansion-focus leaving the cash-shop behind in the history achievement tab.

And yes when I did see that message I also did see it as a new low for the cash-shop focus. In a game that is supposed to be B2P not F2P.

Farming or grinding gold? Because to me it looks like you are referring to grinding gold.

Anyway the only reason I can think of that they dislike farming is because then people van work towards the item they want them-self, directly. If make sure you have general loot that drops low then everything gets traded between people with gold. So gold is everything in this game and now guess what they sell.

PS I am not a gold-grinder myself but I don’t like the fact that everything is so focused on currencies and then mainly on gold.

Facepunch.5710:

Like you OP, I no longer have any desire to play the launch content. I’ve long since gotten the dungeon sets I’m interested in, the legendary I wanted, leveled all the classes and races I wanted, and generally had my fill of map completing and even WvW.

If ANet were to release an expansion, I would gobble up that content within a few months and then be bored once again. The only reason I’m still here is Living World. Whether this content is most often temporary or permanent isn’t the issue, IMO, because the model creates a permanent source of temporary content. That appeals to me, even now that we’re seeing repeats of temporary content we’ve had already. The only rough times are when the update cycle goes on hiatus, like the first quarter/half of 2014. Massively bored.

Thats funny I feel completely opposite to the LS, the breaks is when I have more fun.

With the other content I still have more then enough to do. Have no craft at max level, no map completion, only one lvl 80 (another one almost) and no PS completed. Many because it required a boring from of game-play (gold-grind) and World-completion is skipping of a list.
Because I did not like to do the gold grindy stuff I was always in low supplies of gold so then you will also not play on an lower level alt because whatever you do there rewards even less gold.
Also no legendary but I did stack up on a lot of crap so might in fact be close to getting one if I really wanted… except for the gold-part what is like 50%+ of the legendary.

I do however have many hours in the game mainly spending it in other ways (JP’s, doing stuff with the guild and so on). The LS did have some content in them but overall I don’t like the pressure of having to play or lose out on it forever. The 3 breaks we have had so far have been much more fun and there is still enough to do for me in the game but the way you do most of it is just to boring for me.

In a way it makes sense. If you like the grind or striping of a list then you would have completed the stuff in the game pretty soon and might in fact like what the LS offers.

lordkrall.7241:

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

Stop spreading FUD. GW1 did it, so why can’t GW2. Plus they could keep the store just not have to focus every second of development time on it.

Because of several factors:

1: They have a massively amount of more employees now.
2: GW2 is a MMORPG, GW1 wasn’t, and as such GW2 require much more resources.
3: GW2 is a much bigger game.

So, tell me how they could survive using the same model as GW1 with that information?

Not to mention the fact that GW1 didn’t really work out for long like that either, seeing as they stopped after about 1,5 years with it.

1: They have a more employees because they are bigger what also results in more income.
2: And such it attracts more players again resulting in more income.
3: Same a 1.. Yes bigger game so more income.

It’s really funny that you point out that the game is bigger to proof they have higher cost but forget to mention that that in fact also results in higher income, usually resulting in a higher profit!
So if it’s about money they should now have more space then they had with GW1.

The numbers also say it all.
Numbers: https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/151443/1q14_NCSoft.jpg Calculation: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/NcSoft-earnings-1Q-14/page/3#post4029793

That shows that if they used the exact same model (releasing every +- 6 months) they would have earned more. However I don’t expect them to release every 6 months but every year. In that case they would have started to earn more (then the model they now use) at the time they sold the second expansion what now would have been just around the corner.

Lastly the comment that GW1 did not work out. Seriously? The reason you now have GW2 is because of GW1’s success. The reason they build a new game was because they wanted a true MMO with a open world and GW2 could not offer that. But it’s GW1’s success that made that possible.

Galen Grey.4709:

well according to wikipedia they’re rockstar north together with studio X

anyhow 900 employees over 8 games would still be close to 120 per game!

I see what you mean. I did get my information from another site (other language). According to the page your refer to they indeed did work on multiple games however other studies also helped with there project. So I don’t know what is and what isn’t correct.

Anyway, I made the previous post complete so if you are interested have a read:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/What-happened-I-just-don-t-find-any-real-reason-to-play/page/4#post4048557

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

~

~

Good change Rockstar North would work on Max Payne? They never worked on that series. Thats from Rockstar Toronto.

“Rockstar is a bit of a complicated case because technically speaking while working on GTA 5 they were also working on 8 other games”
Now I see what you are doing wrong. You mix up Rockstar North (or any of it’s sisters) to the overall Rockstar. They have different sister companies (all part off the over Rockstar) working on separate projects. I checked and they have 8 of those studio’s (some smaller some bigger) and in total over 900 employees.

Now imagine is many of that ‘game-play’ (going into the world collecting those things) is your preferred play-style / is your preferred game-play then you might understand where I (and with me people with similar complains) are coming from. Also don’t forget that GW2 is trying to attract those people. From a marketing point it might then seem logical to monetize exactly that part but from a game-play point it isn’t.

And I am not exaggerating by saying it’s ‘the way I play’ and it’s the biggest part of my game-play. I did play multiple other Mmo’s (not a huge list btw), next to GW2 I did play L2 for a while but couldn’t stand the click to move, I did play The Chronicles of Spellborn and I did play WoW. I also visited some other mmo’s but really playing it for a longer period I am talking about. All those game has this type of game-play I like in a different way in them, but let me take WoW as example simply because most people here then know the examples I am talking about.

So how did I play that game. I never went to a dungeon to do the dungeon, I never leveled to level and I never did explore just to get map-completion or anything like that.

No my game-play existed of smaller goals and while doing that my character did grow and I got to visit those dungeons and so on.

For example my favorite profession was engineer. So I was always looking for the next item to build (always some fun thing, a ‘toy’ or a mini or something like that). Farming the maps was never a problem however sometimes you needed an item that you could only get from one or two places so I checked where to get that and went on my way. On the way there I did see a little house in the distance so went by there to check it out and thats how I explored. Once I got that item and crafted the toy there was a next item on the list but I needed a recipe for that however that only dropped in a dungeon so I went into the dungeon. Half of the time solo not even playing the dungeon but simply try to sneak by some mobs to only get to the mob that did drop or sell the recipe I needed. The sneaking part itself in fact also had it;s own game-play because I used an orb of invisibility for that want only dropped in one place so I first went there to get that. In fact I did also collect that sort of fun items in the game. One of my favorites a unconscious rat. Extremely rare and all it did was spawn a critter rat but I did stay very nice in my bank.
While leveling my craft that way my personal level did grow by itself and I did get to see most of the world by itself.

With the hunter I also liked to go try and get rare pets. Those where available all over the game and the next one was always close enough (required level) that while getting the previous one you would level up of the next one.

Going into the world to collect mini’s was a thing I loves to do. Much the same story as I said about the crafting recipe. Same for mounts.

Now thats my preferred game-play. Now you should understand why I feel the way I do about the cash-shop focus. This could all have been in GW2 but it isn’t and much of it because of the cash-shop.

Not all btw, it’s also why I would love to see bigger maps (seamless zones preferably) and no map-completion with poi and vista’s and so on. It for me takes the fun out of exploring and no way that you see a house in the distance that in fact not many people visit because if it’s interesting it has a poi and people had to run by it skipping it of there list for world-completion. But that completely to the side. It might help you (and hopefully developers) to understand why I (and i’m not alone) am against or in favor of the things I am so against or in favor of.

Xenon.4537:

frans.8092:

A Massive Headache.1879:

as i’m sure was stated before. there is no grind for anything necessary. Leveling curve is absolutely fine, and exotic gear drops enough. As for fractals and ascended gear, that’s a bit of a grind but it’s not too bad, especially if you enjoy eotm

That is just not true. First of all, exotic gear does not drop enough. Second, best in slot is ascended and ascended is a grind to get. First to get the materials (and gold) to level up the required crafting disciplines, then again to get the material and gold to craft the actual gear.

Yes ascended is best in slot, but the difference between a full set of exotic and a full set of ascended is often less than a single socket jewel. You don’t need it to play 95% of the content in the game. The caveat that everyone conveniently misses is the part where you don’t need to grind to play any of the content (excluding high level fractals). Is there grind in the game? Yes. Do you need to do it to access any content? No (unless the only content you care about is fractal 10+ in which case I posit that you are the kind of person who doesn’t mind, because high level fractals is for hardcore players).

What people who use your argument conveniently seem to miss is that not everybody cares about the fractals (replace that with highest lvl raid and so on) or kills but some care for things like skins, looks mini’s… In fact it’s what this game builds up on. So for people who like those thinks the grind is just as bad as for somebody else who wants to do some content that is lock behind a tier-grind.

Grind is grind. It’s a game so you NEVER need to do anything but if it effects your preferred game-play it’s just as bad for you as it is for somebody else if it effects his different preferred game-play.

Umut.5471:

Grind is just for legendary skins, so it’s not obligatory.

And for mini’s, and for skins, and for crafting, and for dyes and for.. well everything you can almost only(or much faster) get with gold / gems.

But you are correct it’s all not obligated. In fact it’s a game so nothing is obligated.

Galen Grey.4709:

What Id forget to mention in the last post is that in fact development is ‘easier’ in a way because you simply add content to the game. Most of the foundation is already there. That is a big difference from working from scratch.
Rockstar North has only one other game they work on (Agent) and I think it’s fair to assume GTA is there main game other games get set on hold for (what explains why Agent is already in development for like 7 years). So those 360 working on it is a fair estimation I think.

In a way Rockstar North is a good example here. They develop for multiple years and then release it to then go work on the next project while maintaining the old one. GTA 4 released in 2008 Then they started to work on GTA 5 (with only Agent and making converting GTA 4 to the PC as side projects). Then they released GTA 5 5 year later. That is about the same period as it took Anet to develop GW2. Now Rockstar will start working on GTA 6 what they will then likely release also 5 years later.
GW2 should really be able to push out an expansion every year. So if people say focusing purely on expansions can’t work because Anet can’t have a period of a year without income, to me seems like the same as saying as that Rockstar North with there GTA series is a failed concept, or really saying they can’t exist.

About if it makes more money. With the numbers we have we can do some calculating showing that after a year using the current model (selling the game then heavy focus on cash-shop) they would have earned a little more then if they had sold an expansion, after the second expansion they would have made more money going only up from there. Numbers: https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/151443/1q14_NCSoft.jpg Calculation: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/NcSoft-earnings-1Q-14/page/3#post4029793
Personally I always did think it would take at least 3 years for it to become more profitable so those numbers where even more positive for the expansion-based model then I thought.

The difference with your calculation is that you think it takes them at least 1,5 year for an expansion (what I can agree on for the first year but really after that imho a year should be feasible). Another factor you don’t calculate in and I personally do (not in those calculations above) is that you simply get a higher quality product so likely more players and a longer live-spawn also resulting more profit over it’s total live-spawn and better merchandise income.

You say they manage to increase sale with a fix or some marketing and I think they can but at the same time those things also scare people away. The smaller spike you see (I think that’s what you are taking about) is an expected spike you see in every Q4 results because of Christmas and so on.

Having both (with a heavy cash-shop focus as GW2 has now) would imho also not double the income because you alienate to many people. But I do agree that an expansion-based model does involve higher risks.

“We dont know for sure some design decissions are done purely for cash shop reason” No but some common sense can come in handy here. Beside I said it does compromise the game and that’s fact (depending on your play-style). I can take the mini examples that would be way more fun to collect in the world. By putting most in the cash-shop they effectively removed that element (collecting mini’s in the world) from the game. Most of the better looking skins are cash-shop related and don’t drop in the world automatically turning that into a gold-grind. No barber in the game where you can cut your hair for 15 silver because they want to make money on hair-cuts.
But yeah you can’t guarantee they would not make the same decisions, they could not put mini’s in the game (or only sold by npc’s), no barber, most skins only sold by npc’s but I do think that simply because there is no need to try and get those cash-shop sales they can and so will develop a better game.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

~

Because like you said single player games dont have the same costs as MMOs. MMOs are able to launch new content before single player games not because developing for MMOs is somehow faster but because they employ more resources since they dont have the same luxury of waiting 3+ years between releases. Just to compare GW2 has a team of about 350 people, skyrim has a team of 100 and fallout 3 of 70 people. I am sure salaries are part of the biggest expense a game has. Then there is also support. Dont know for sure but I imagine an MMO gets a ton more work in that area since you need to deal with hacking, cash shop issues, people’s behavior towards one another and such that a single player game does not. While the server costs are probably not so big and I do agree with you there, its still an added cost even if a small one.

But perhaps more then all of this is the risks involved with running an MMO. I dont think you’ll disagree with me that MMOs are risky business. Their success doesnt depend solely on you and its not easy keeping players engage for years on the same game, But when you’re falling on hard times you might actually have to bite the bullet run at a loss just not to alienate your player base. SOE for example ran states they’ve been running vanguard at a loss for years just to keep the player base happy. Now keep in mind all these games most of the time depend on external investors. I dont imagine many studios start out with the ability of sustaining the wage of 100s of people for 5 or so years without any income to launch their first MMO. But why would investors invest in a business thats generally considered much riskier then a single player game. plenty of opportunities for investors to invest there that’s for sure. So why do it? well its for the change MMOs give of higher returns. If MMOs simply went B2P they’d have higher costs, bigger risk and thus lower returns than single player games that are more likely to succeed. I would imagine that would make getting funding a whole lot harder!

That employees also have to do with the size of the game. I also don’t know how exact those numbers are. Are those 70 only the in-house people are also those that worked on it externally? And how is that for those 300?

I know for example that GTA (yeah that is a huge name so not completely fair comparison) has 360 in-house employees working on it and in total over 1000 people worked on the game.

Besides I did say non-mmo I did not say single-player and on most multiplayers you have to check for cheaters. Of course that’s more an issue in an mmo and I do agree it’s running cost are higher but I don’t think that would be the reason why it would not be possible. Numbers show that expansion sales make more money then a cash-shop so from a money perspective it should be just fine. So if those cost would not allow to be supported by a cash-shop they would also not be supported by expansions and while indeed most mmo’s do also have a cash-shop there are many mmo’s that in fact only have a cash-shop. That would mean those games could not exist or be making any money and they do.

“But why would investors invest in a business thats generally considered much riskier then a single player game.” Because it’s possible reward is much higher. But risk is indeed the main reason why I think we see the cash-shop focus. Using a cash-shop to squeeze out more money is less risky then using expansions because if a game fails within a year with a have cash-shop focus you could still have squeezed out some nice money while with an expansion you by that time would have already also invested in the next expansion and that would then not sell very well meaning you would likely lose money. On the other hand if it’s a success it might result in even more money return especially in the more longer run. (so I disagree with you that it would result is less money)

B2P can easily result in a better quality game because your don;t have to compromise the game for cash-shop sales. That can result in better sales and a longer live-spawn and also more merchandise sales.

It’s also a matter of being afraid to use a fairly untested system in the genre or (incorrectly) thinking the other option generates more money. It wasn’t so long ago that those investors weren’t going to invest in F2P games because they believed it was to risky our it would not make enough money.

All that to side I personally look at it with two eyes. Yes I do understand it’s a company that needs to make money and do take that into consideration. On the other hand as a consumer I also want a high quality product and is this product not a money-machine for me.

Iki.4062:

I’m very disappointed with the lack of permanent content. The problem for me with the Living Story (LS) is that, every time it pops up, instead of being excited about new content, I just feel pressured into doing it right now because I know its going to get deleted shortly. So I end up not even bothering logging in the game for the duration of the event. I like to consume content on my own schedule, not the developer’s.

At this point, I would gladly pay 20€ for one expansion every year, like we did with Guild Wars, if that meant more actual content.

And shame on the guy that counted hair styles and UI fixes as content. Pathetic.

100% agree. It’s also my main problem with the LS.
I however would also be fine with paying 50 or 60 Euro and if Anet would start doing things ‘better’ from my perspective more for an CE would also be fine.

What are you referring to with hair styles UI fixes or content? In this thread you mean?

I do not consider it content as it is. However I would consider a barber in the game where you can cut your hair for a few silver as content or at least an improvement of the game.

jheryn.8390:

Devata.6589:

jheryn.8390:

OMG! People were complaining constantly about wanting permanent content out of the LS, and when ANet says that the new LS content will be mostly permanent, these same compainers start nay saying before they even get the new stuff. Unbelievable.

Most people are mainly doubtful because Colin in fact said similar things for S1, just after the beginning when complains started rolling in and then again half way S1 (after more complains) but it did not happen. So now people are doubtful if it will happen. Sure some new maps will be thrown in but will the LS really become permanent? I do hope so (for as if they continue with the LS anyway) but we will see.

Well, since this is a whole new season, why don’t we give them a chance before we start griping? I understand what they said last year, but that is last year and a completely different story line. Some of the content from LS story has no reason to be permanent content. How could the marionette be permanent content? Some of the LS1 story I wouldn’t want as permanent content. I just say, lets see how things go with the new season before we start in with the hate.

Well I am willing to see but it’s not like people did not wait. They promised to do things different many times. But we will see. I hope it did change.

About some stuff having to be temporary with the marionette example.

It’s ArenaNet who makes the story. Yeah in the current story it would not make any sense if it was permanent (as with most of the LS stuff) but they could have written the story a little different making it completely normal it would stay.

Here is my pool example again.
When they build a pool near your house (irl) you first see the building stage and then when it’s done you can go there to swim

Now in a game you can build the story mainly about the building stage. You help to build, there are achievements and rewards for helping to build. Thats all temporary and then when it’s there thats is all the activities and achievements and rewards in gone. (GW2 story’s where mainly destroying things but that to the side)

However they could have also just adding in some NPC workers and you would see them building. No real activities (or not much, maybe you can help but there should be no achievements or rewards that people feel they need to do) no achievements and no rewards but you did see the world change. Then when the pool is there make activities like who can swim the fastest and so on and link achievements and rewards to that. That can stay forever. So for a changing world it’s not to have all this temporary content. Only come cosmetic change (the building phase) is temporary. Pretty much the opposite of what they do now.

This is what I have been suggesting like since LS1 started.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

I did say “Not to argue about the amount of content” so not sure why you then want to. It’s not the big issue for me. But to answer the question. I think that because expansions in general have more to offe (including those from GW1, and I don’t expect it in 6 months but about 1 year what should be realistic. Yes details have gone up and that does increase the work but tools have also become better decreasing the work. So the 1 year should work.) The LS does also cost a lot of time, it are all groups working on a little part of the story that then gets removed again. Lets see all the instances and mini dungeons we have had. If they where building an expansion then that would have been maybe 3 new big dungeons. But now it are different smaller groups that deliver all small chunks of content that gets removed afterward so it’s content does not have the same amount of overall value. You might do a dungeon multiple times but many of the mini instances we have had is something you would and could only do once so has a way lower content value.
snip..

Also there is a little flaw in your comment. You say that it would take longer so if they released now we would have the same amount of content but next season we will see the new maps. That makes no sense as those people have been building the LS. So that time is gone, maybe there is another team working on expansion-like content but then if the LS people would also have worked on a expansion then it might have been done in a year.

Tools have gotten better no doubt but its still a ton of a lot quicker to create a low poly model then a high poly model not mention having to create many more object to populate the same space which tools dont help you with.

If they did an expansion I would hope all the various content types would get the same attention, IE they’d still create new mini games, new jps etc..

Why would you say Voice acting that was shown only once is wasted? Most of the voice acting goes into story telling in all MMOs anyway and most of it you see it only a few times (depending on the number of alts you start) does it not count there either?

No there is no flaw in my argument because like they said a lot of times the teams working of the living story were just a fraction of the overall team size. They also have other teams some working on projects like EOTM that wasnt build by the living story team and they also reported there are 2 teams working on 2 big projects since at least january 2013. Of course its entirely my own speculation by personally I am pretty confident at least one of those teams was working on new zones that I imagine we’ll be seeing in Season 2 of the LS.

kept it short because of the not wish to argue part let me know if you want me to elaborate on anything

I am not sure what you mean with ‘more models’ but yeah copying a model and changing it a little is possible so tools can help. However I did say it would take longer and I did not ask for anything in 6 months but in a year.

If it would be for your personal story yes your right. I am more talking about NPC’s in the world, being it NPC’s that talk with each other or with the player for an event.

There did go a lot of time into the LS, if that would have mainly gone into an expansion it’s likely that should have been done sooner.

Celtic Lady.3729:

The real question is whether Anet feels new life is needed here. The obvious answer is no. They’re not adding content because they consider their gem store sales to be sufficient right now. Player opinion has nothing to do with it because players are already voting with their pocketbooks and the numbers are fine from Anet’s point of view.

I did vote as well, just as many people with me. At release I did buy the CE and with me many other as it was completely sold out. Also was GW2 the best selling MMO so many many people voted for those box sales.

After release I did vote by not buying a single gems, some people did vote by buying gems but overall the money they got at release was much higher.

Then there was the time that we could vote ingame for the girl or the cash-shop guy. The girl won and then we where a year later and I liked to vote again by buying an expansion but I did never got that option while the cash-shop people did get a lot of votes.

It does not seem like a real fair voting and if anything the votes seem to be more pointing towards box-sales then cash-shop sales.

Don’t take this post to serious all I am saying is that the voting idea ‘you vote with your wallet’ is not as it seems. The only thing that might work is if the gem-buyers would suddenly start voting against the cash-shop. If not no other votes count. So only a part of the people have voting rights.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Jasper.9341:

Tho this is a buy to play game, so we are willing to accept it

Strange that you look at it that way. The way I look at it. Because this is a B2P game we should not get the F2P cash—shop focus but get an expansion every year we have to pay for if we want the content.

That is how I look at it. sadly it tunred into a cash-shop game that has the F2P negatives.

btw, I meant to ask this but never got around to it. Every single B2P game has a cash shop what makes you say B2P games should not have a cash shop? Now a days even P2P games have cash shops! But save for Gw1 at the beginning which technically isnt even an MMO every single B2P to ever come out had a cash shop!

So I have to ask, whats the bases of your statement?

If you pay good attention I mainly (sometimes I talk about a cash-shop focus. I am fine with a cash-shop if it sells only out-of-game items / services. Like changing your name, a full make-over kit, race-changer that sort of stuff. I could even be ok with a vip-service if it only gave out-of game things (Like beta access).

It’s the focus that is the problem. And while you could say GW1 was not a true MMO because it had all instances you can say the same about GW2 with the difference that in GW1 only the city was ‘public’ and in GW2 it’s per map but also not a true open world. That however does not change much for the feasibility to use a true B2P model so without a cash-shop focus.

Now a days even P2P games have cash-shops indeed yeah. That does not mean it’s needed or good, it means companies will try anything to get as much money as they can (what I do understand) and especially MMO’s are seen as moneymakers and so sadly they also get more and more purely treated as that.

That does not mean the companies and there so called smart business people know what there doing. No this is not me telling I am smarter as them, this is me pointing out some facts. After WoW got released many companies tried to copy the income. All creating sub-based games. What did is result in so far? That over the last 10 years (all after WoW) they where forced to go F2P or even got closed down. So just because something is the standard or just because something is done a lot does not mean it works or it is the best. They do it because they think it’s the best way to get the highest income and even if that’s true then I personally are also looking at the game from a game and quality viewpoint.. you know being the customer and stuff.

only every single MMO thats b2p and you can include Gw1 if you want include far more then that, they all sell cosmetic stuff, mini pets, etc… Gw2 isnt the only b2p that runs this type of cash shop they all do!

As for if said content is effecting game play and thus making the game worst then it could be thats all speculation no one can say conclusively if thats the case or not. Every coin has 2 faces after all.

GW1 did at least in the beginning not have a cash-shop at all.
And why only look at MMO’s? Most non-mmo’s use a B2P model and while many people like to believe it’s so different because of having to maintain the servers is not big of a difference as they might think. Yes an MMO has higher running cost but would also be able to push out expansions more often while non-mmo’s soon have to go work on a sequel that will be released 3 years later.

If it hurts the game depends on your play-style / preferred game-play.
I can conclusively say that is does effect my preferred game-play in a negative way.

It is one of the reasons I did go for this B2P game in stead of the many F2P games out there.
AA is coming out soon and the game looks great but it’s F2P and purely for that I am not as happy with it as I could be because it likely means a lot of grind and items locked behind the cash-shop. Items I would like to earn (in a reasonable way) in game as doing that is what I like in an MMO.

mjhungness.8059:

I’ve played since headstart weekend pretty regularly, at least for a casual. I’ve capped 5 characters, done map completion on one, finished the Personal Story, done most of the achievements for the Living Story content … I could go on but I’ve done everything in this game that interests me and tried everything else the game has to offer. I’m not pinning my current disappointed state on losing the Champ Train. It’s just the continuous agressive removal of things to do by the devs … and for what?

I can’t farm too much because I hit Diminishing Returns. I can’t go crazy with doing Achievements because there’s a cap on how many. I can’t play Living Story content past the designated time that it’s live. I can only build so many pieces of ascended items a day. Loot scaling, I can’t this and I can’t that – the list goes on. Why has a game that showed so much promise and innovation at release done nothing but seek ways to penalize their players with one Control Freak thing after another? If botting is a problem, why does the active player base suffer the consequences by DR? Some people like to farm to make gold – that’s their play style. DR is the same as telling a map completion player he can only do 5 hearts a day, unlock 3 waypoints and do 2 vistas – then he’s done. DR is like telling a TP junkie he can only make 10 transactions a day. DR is like telling WvW players that they can only get 50 player kills a day. PvP players get 5 matches a day. Living Story players get 60 minutes in the instance, “starting … now! Go go go!” You can easily find ways to limit everyone’s chosen play style.

with a game that is the size that it is, area-wise, and with not much lasting new content since launch (as in, if I log in today versus headstart weekend, what new content is there, current Four Winds content aside – and I’m talking new, playable content, not LA’s destruction) why has the game taken to self-patrolling players who are eking out ways to have fun?

It’s fine to step up on the pulpit and shout down players like me who are dissatisfied with this constant active restriction of ways to play the game, to tell me that I should take my dark cloud and go elsewhere – very cavalier and it probably makes you feel better for saying it and defending the game’s honor. But that’s a dangerous attitude to take. Any product, that ceases to find ways to improve and instead continues to decrease its functionality on a regular basis will become obsolete, replaced with a product that is superior. Guild Wars 2 was superior when it released. Now it’s just another game with an obscene number of Dev inflicted restrictions.

Yeah, I’m going to move on now. And before the “Don’t let the door hit my fanny on the way out” calls come, take a moment to think about what you’re really defending – how would you feel if the ways you’ve played for 2 years is suddenly time gated or removed completely (again, I’m not talking Champ Train, I’m talking about ALL the restrictions imposed over the last 2 years)? Thanks for the run GW – I still love this game and will likely check in from time to time.

Yeah the force is strong in this game. I do feel the same but with other examples. Like rangers, in many mmo’s (yeah also WoW) there is a real dynamic way of getting mounts. In some cases that even means you can get a pet developers did not intent you on getting. But thats no problem, that is what makes the game more interesting.

Invisible walls over the place because omg he may not be able to stand on the other site of this little fence.

I do like a dynamic world where you can find out your own things. It’s like with Landmark, that is designed in a very dynamic way. Then players will and did find out new things and ways of doing things. Those developers embraced that, I do feel it that would have been GW2 it was patched out.

I don’t know why it is but they really want to control the way you do thinks.

Galen Grey.4709:

~

“Oh come on, of course its a reward to specific content, sure you dont have to go after a specific champion true but you have to go after a specific class of champions which can only be found in a specific area. If it was one champion it wouldnt change the fact people do go and farm the item directly.“
It’s a pretty big group of champions and even if people don’t farm them many people run into them many times meaning they have a bigger change it drops from them on accident (while not trying to get it).

That is very different from if lets say the bandits in some cave somewhere have the change to drop an specific item and it only drops there from that group of bandits. Then people are much less likely to get the drop accidentally.

One specific mob is indeed also an option.

Now imagine you do that with most loot in the game. Now if I want item X that is dropped from mob Y why would I not just go kill mob Y if I want it but in stead go kill mob Z hoping he drops his special item so I can sell that and then buy the other item. The only time I would really do that if I really don’t want kill mob Y.
(replace killing mob by any type of content you can do)
So you still.. no now you really have your ‘play the way you want’. Also people who just like to grind gold can still do that but it’s completely different from champions have in general ‘good’ loot and there are many places where there are many champs so we go there to grind them for gold.

In fact if you would try to use the zerg-grind tactic (what is really hard because drops are much more spread) it would not work because then suddenly that one item gets dropped more and so gets put on the TP more lowering it’s value meaning you would be making less gold.

“as for the low drop rate, if it is so low and people dont farm them how exactly are there 112”
Thats it exacly one of the problems, and I did explain this in the sentence you reacted on. It has a very low drop-rate and has a general drop so you can’t really work towards that specific item. But many people just grind many champions because in general they have good loot that means many people (not interested in that item) still get it and put it on the TP meaning the value on the TP drops. So while the drop-rate might be to low to work effectively towards it alone because many people are grinding those mobs all day long the TP will still have many of them on it.

“Also I dont get how you feel its a very low drop rate if you farm specifically for it ”
No people do NOT farm specificly for that item. They just grind champions because in general it has good loot. There are many of those rare drops that it can drop and also other stuff. They are not farming the champions for that one item. Not one person is having a high change but if a lot of people do it there is a high change multiple people (who don’t specifically want that item) do get it.

If we pick a number under the 10 and 10 people pick all a different number the change that I have the correct one is very low but the change that any of us 10 has it is 100%.

“I hope you realize there are just 6 champions in all of tyria that could drop this. 4 are in 1 zone and 2 in another.”
As far as I know those get farmed a lot by people running it in trains much like the queens-dale train. So so much for that one item but for it;s frops in general. But I must say I am not really into the grinding scene as you might understand so I could be wrong.

“and wouldnt that make it worst rather then better? I mean if in 1 zone you get 4 chances arent you more likely to try and farm it then if you only get 1 chance per zone? “
Thats not how it works. Sure have 4 mobs that drop one specific item will work as well. Champions are farmed because they in general have good loot and people need money because they can’t get most the items they like in any other way then gold.

“Which brings us back to rarity. if you only need to kill a champion a couple of times ”
It might be rare, I never say it drops easily rather have one the change that one mob drops that one good item the same as it is now that you have the change that a champion drops any of it ’ good’ items. Then it becomes ‘farmable’ but not easy. And for the overall longevity is does not do any bad (in fact it might increase it as many people get bored of grinding gold pretty fast) because there would be many items in the world. So one you do manage to get that one item there are still many other to go for. People who now grind gold usually also don;t stop after they have both (the first time) what wanted.

And because people are less likely to get it as an accidental drop (so while it’s not an item they are really looking for) the rarety is only higher, not lower. I do care about rarety thats also something the current system undermines. Many of those so-called rare exotics are not rare simply because so many people grind champs just for gold.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Not to argue about the amount of content (I do think an expansion would have likely delivered more content).

How so ? do you think that by doing the LS and sticking to a 2 week schedule some developers were more relaxed and thus less productive then if they had to deliver content in 1 – 2 years time? Cause i have a feeling the oppsite is likely true. People keep comparing this to gw1 and thus expecting an expansion to be delivered in the same 6 month time frame which isnt realistic. Gw2 content requires a lot more work, just compare LA in Gw1 and Gw2, in Gw2 not only every building / structure contains more detailed topoplogy and more textures and added detail but there is also a ton more models. Same goes for the open world, terrain is more complex, more models all around, outposts arent simply a few houses together but a whole lot more work etc.. Even back in the Gw1 days they said releasing expansions every 6 months was too hard. I am sure you know as well as I if not even more that in 10 years processing power shot up and that means that we now expect a much higher graphical fidelity in our games which in turn doesnt simply mean program your engine to display 10 year old stuff nicer but things now have to have very fine detail and tons of secondary movement and stuff and thats all stuff that takes a ton more time to create.

Simply speaking if they had done no living story an expansion would still have taken 1 – 2 years to create most likely and no employee remained idle in the meantime so yes the big expensive stuff to create like zones probably took longer to create then if there was no living story but in the meantime we got stuff to enjoy! Provided this year they release new zones and all the good stuff what Anet did is absolutely ideal in my opinion and I am confident people will be more open to LS too because lets face it no one like to wait. even 1-2 month break created stress imagine 1 – 2 year breaks. with minor repeatable stuff in between. Nightmare!

As for the temporary content, I know your opinion on that and I respect that so nothing to add to that.
~

I did say “Not to argue about the amount of content” so not sure why you then want to. It’s not the big issue for me. But to answer the question. I think that because expansions in general have more to offe (including those from GW1, and I don’t expect it in 6 months but about 1 year what should be realistic. Yes details have gone up and that does increase the work but tools have also become better decreasing the work. So the 1 year should work.) The LS does also cost a lot of time, it are all groups working on a little part of the story that then gets removed again. Lets see all the instances and mini dungeons we have had. If they where building an expansion then that would have been maybe 3 new big dungeons. But now it are different smaller groups that deliver all small chunks of content that gets removed afterward so it’s content does not have the same amount of overall value. You might do a dungeon multiple times but many of the mini instances we have had is something you would and could only do once so has a way lower content value.

The many mini games fit great in the LS content but how much overall value do those add to the game? Maybe if they added fighting with mini’s it would because then you also had to train the mini’s but then it would not fit into the LS because it’s stuff to do in that two weeks period.

It’s like building 100 small toy cars or one big real car. In time and effort it might be the same but in product value the car gives me much more then 100 toy cars.

Much of the activities we did see in the LS could have gone into events and quest on new maps and so on.

Voice-acting for story-telling that you see once (and so has no real content value just story-telling value) and then is gone vs voice-acting for stuff (npc’s, events and so on) on a new map or for a new race.

So yeah in time it might have been about the same (maybe that is the saddest part) but in content value it’s not. I don’t consider many of the mini instances as content (more as a little story telling or somewhere you had to go to quickly to get your achievement) and at this moment they are factual no content anymore but they all did take time to build.

Also there is a little flaw in your comment. You say that it would take longer so if they released now we would have the same amount of content but next season we will see the new maps. That makes no sense as those people have been building the LS. So that time is gone, maybe there is another team working on expansion-like content but then if the LS people would also have worked on a expansion then it might have been done in a year.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Jasper.9341:

Tho this is a buy to play game, so we are willing to accept it

Strange that you look at it that way. The way I look at it. Because this is a B2P game we should not get the F2P cash—shop focus but get an expansion every year we have to pay for if we want the content.

That is how I look at it. sadly it tunred into a cash-shop game that has the F2P negatives.

btw, I meant to ask this but never got around to it. Every single B2P game has a cash shop what makes you say B2P games should not have a cash shop? Now a days even P2P games have cash shops! But save for Gw1 at the beginning which technically isnt even an MMO every single B2P to ever come out had a cash shop!

So I have to ask, whats the bases of your statement?

If you pay good attention I mainly (sometimes I talk about a cash-shop focus. I am fine with a cash-shop if it sells only out-of-game items / services. Like changing your name, a full make-over kit, race-changer that sort of stuff. I could even be ok with a vip-service if it only gave out-of game things (Like beta access).

It’s the focus that is the problem. And while you could say GW1 was not a true MMO because it had all instances you can say the same about GW2 with the difference that in GW1 only the city was ‘public’ and in GW2 it’s per map but also not a true open world. That however does not change much for the feasibility to use a true B2P model so without a cash-shop focus.

Now a days even P2P games have cash-shops indeed yeah. That does not mean it’s needed or good, it means companies will try anything to get as much money as they can (what I do understand) and especially MMO’s are seen as moneymakers and so sadly they also get more and more purely treated as that.

That does not mean the companies and there so called smart business people know what there doing. No this is not me telling I am smarter as them, this is me pointing out some facts. After WoW got released many companies tried to copy the income. All creating sub-based games. What did is result in so far? That over the last 10 years (all after WoW) they where forced to go F2P or even got closed down. So just because something is the standard or just because something is done a lot does not mean it works or it is the best. They do it because they think it’s the best way to get the highest income and even if that’s true then I personally are also looking at the game from a game and quality viewpoint.. you know being the customer and stuff.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

You know we talked a lot about how I find the cash-shop is bad for the game. Well here is one of your examples.

No you need specific rewarding loot in specific places. Problem is that the type of loot they should put there is the stuff they are selling in the cash-shop.

For example, the Karka can drop one specific color that does not drop any-ware else and is not in the cash-shop (but can be sold on the TP) and it can drop a mini-version of itself and it can drop a specific skin.

Now another boss drops another mini and another color another skin.

Yet another boss only drops a specific skin and so on.

Meanwhile you make sure you have less general drops and don’t have that sort of rewards in the cash-shop.

That would mean that the game would become less of a gold-grind because you can get most items in the game-word itself and running around with a zerg is not so rewarding anymore because if everybody starts to loot one type of content the value of that item will drop because it overflows on the TP.

Besides gold would then also be not as important to get anything as it is now.

In addition make mats farmable as well and gone is your vicious circle.

Yes I know how you like to fit the cash shop is bad into every argument… not sure how cash shop is bad fits into champion trains or killing veterans but anyhow…

what you’re asking for is already there. Say for example the Crystal Guardian skin. You’re not going to get that from a champion drop in queensdale it only drops from branded champions but guess what because it can be sold on TP people will farm what makes them money fastest and just buy it rather then go farming it directly. Thats just one example, every type of champion has its own special skins that drop only from that type. Yet it didnt incentivize people to spread out.

It might work if you make them untradable but then that creates other issues and destroys what is at the core of Gw2 which ofcourse is you’re free to decide that kind of content you like to play. If they were untradable and I wanted say the scepter of the highborn I would be forced to go kill champions from the animal kingdom but thing is I dont enjoy farming champions I enjoy doing events, jumping puzzles etc… With them tradable I can do that, do my events, do my jumping puzzles earn my 2.5g and buy it.

I dont know, I Cant judge of course. Perhaps people who farm champion trains all day are having a lot of fun and perfectly happy with how stuff is, I just dont know but I dont think they’re going to change what they’re doing unless the game forces them to (making stuff untradable and such) and thats really worst then the status quo.

I don’t fit it into everything, I do mainly go to threads about the subject, so you will see it coming back a lot in my comments that’s true. (I also dislike invisible walls but don’t say that’s cash-shop related) I do say one of the main things is the gold-grind that comes with the cahs-shop because you can’t get specific rewards (many are in the cash-shop or require gold what is also good for the cash-shop because of gems to gold). And you know that as we did talk a lot about that.

People mainly do champion trains to grind gold.

So you really can’t see the connection between the two? Sure you can.

There are some skins behind specific content but mostly it’s a general drop.

Your Crystal Guardian is not a good example because it’s not a specific drop from specific content. It’s a general drop that comes in boxes that are dropped by multiple different champions. That means people will farm it and / or are more likely to simply get it without really going for it. It’s in fact not even really an item you can go for. Sure you can focus on that type of champions but the drop-change is extremely low but because it’s a general drop the change of somebody who is not interested in it getting it is pretty high meaning there will be enough on the TP meaning grinding for gold yourself is the faster option.

If it would be an item that dropped from one type of mob in one area then it would be a specific drop, this is not.

I think there is a rare drop for an item in the latest added dungeon path. That would be a good example. Crystal Guardian is an example of how it should NOT be.

I don’t think most should be account-bound because I don’t mind if people want to sell them / grind gold for them. The problem is that if you want such an item it’s now really the own viable option.

Galen Grey.4709:

Vix.6730:

Half of your list should have been included during launch. Aside from balancing and bug fixing the game is barren of new content. Re-skinning maps and buffing existing world bosses is NOT new content. Yes, some of the Living Story was fun, but it was quick and very possible to complete in two hours or less at a casual pace. And when those two hours of fun were over so was the “new” content.

Seriously can we stop this should have been included at launch whatever you want to call it. How do you determine what should have been included at launch or not? Its not like there is a set standard of what should be or what should not be at launch of any mmo. Should LFG be there at launch? yes then why do so many MMOs launch without LFG, why do some have no LFG years after they’ve launched.

Thing is its like people just want to believe Arenanet did absolutely nothing with the game since launch so they go out of their way to 1. forget all the content we got, 2. downplaying content by calling it a re-skin of other content 3. Conviniently focus on the minor stuff and ignoring the big stuff (example revamping a world boss is not new content conviniently forgetting about Karka queen and Wurm) and worst yet 4. dismiss it as shouldnt have been there at launch anyway.

And you know what even if we only get 2hrs of gameplay out of every release and its way more then that when you factor in NPC dialog, exploration, replayability etc.. but lets leave it at 2hrs like you suggest… that means 104 hrs of new gameplay a year… thats more then single player RPG blockbusters that generally advertize they offer 80hrs – 100 hrs of content if you exclude replayability.

These are games that generally take years of development to delivery those 100hrs and all that time you cannot do anything but wait. Yet with Gw2 you get 2 hrs of stuff to do every 2 weeks. However while people praise those single player rpgs development teams for providing tons of content here we bash Arenanet for essentially not doing a thing even though they’re actually doing just as well.

I am sorry if I sound a bit too harsh but people seriously, you dont like the content fine, you wish for a different type of content fine, you want it all permanent fine but please stop trying to twist things or coming up with contorted reasons to make it sound like all the content we were given never really exsited.

Not to argue about the amount of content (I do think an expansion would have likely delivered more content). My personal problem with the LS is that it’s all a temporary rush against time to do your temporary available activities to get your temporary available achievements to get your temporary available rewards. And with the theme of the LS there are the temporary available cash-shop items. All of it giving you the feeling of do it now our lose out forever. That is my main problem of how the LS itself works.

My other problem with the game is how the cash-shop focus does impacts the game in a negative way and the LS is related to that as it fits with there approach of making money that way in stead of expansion.

So really for me it’s not just about the amount of content. Even if the LS would deliver everything an expansion would that would not solve the problem. As long as it’s a rush against time and we keep having the cash-shop influence on the game I will dislike that.

Still I do think there are indeed thinks that should have been in the game during launch like a LastOnline function for example.

A good expansion can easily keep me happy for a year. The LS could make keep me busy but not keep me happy.

Btw a year has 52 weeks, content every two weeks makes that 26 and they did have a few breaks so lets say 23 weeks of LS patches, times 2 hours is 46. Not really important but I don’t understand how you get 100 hours.

Galen Grey.4709:

Xenon.4537:

Actually I like the veteran loot bag idea. Think about it. Where are the vets in this game? All over the place. You couldn’t really form a solid train for them. People would spread out and hunt them down. It could potentially break the PvE zergs up. The problem with doing this is more of a concern about the economy, but lets be real. Would things really be any different? 900 people zerging 5 champs 24/7, or 900 people spread out across the game killing hundreds of vets?

You could have a train for veterans as well. I mean the same argument is true for champions as well. Champions are all over the place as well yet people focus on queensdale and frostgorge mostly. Thing is if you look at the game from a purely reward perspective there will always be that content rotation that provides the best return for the time invested its simply impossible to make all content equally rewarding and all taking exactly the same amount of effort.

No, but you could make it possible to hunt down items / rewards themselves and by that making gold not as ’ required’ to get those items as it is now. For me I don’t care that people run farm-trains I just don’t like to play that way.

Oow and I know the gold-excuse “well you can simply do the content you like and earn gold that way” what would be valid if hunting down and the rush of being able to get that item is your gameplay. However GW2 proves that’s an invalid argument.

When something does not reward enough people stop doing it so they where not doing it because they liked it but pure to grind gold. That will get boring (for most people) and so those people will leave at some point.

I stay at my point that specific rewards behind specific content is the solution (but almost to do right in GW2 because they want to sell those items in the cash-shop or at least make money out of them using the cash-shop). People can get the items they like so no need to grind gold and those who still really want to grind gold still can. Now it’s mainly general drops that make people money that they then have to use to buy the item they want simply because there is not a real other way. So if people want something they search for the most easy way to grind the gold they need for the item.

jheryn.8390:

OMG! People were complaining constantly about wanting permanent content out of the LS, and when ANet says that the new LS content will be mostly permanent, these same compainers start nay saying before they even get the new stuff. Unbelievable.

Most people are mainly doubtful because Colin in fact said similar things for S1, just after the beginning when complains started rolling in and then again half way S1 (after more complains) but it did not happen. So now people are doubtful if it will happen. Sure some new maps will be thrown in but will the LS really become permanent? I do hope so (for as if they continue with the LS anyway) but we will see.

So no temporary activities with temporary achievement list (the achievement-history list will stop to grow) and temporary rewards linked to it coming with temporary available cash-shop items?

It would be a nice improvement, a little late as many people asked for that since the beginning of LS1 but we will see.

Still it would not solve most problems that come with the cash-shop but it would be a good improvement for sure.

What I am afraid of with the LS S2 is that basically everything stays the same but they also throw in a few new maps and maybe a new race and then say “you see it’s now permanent”, No you then did throw some permanent stuff in during the LS but the LS is still mainly temporary giving you the feeling to do it now or lose out forever.

I guess we will see at the first LS S2 patch. I still rather just have expansions I have to pay for and then getting rid of the cash-shop to fund things.

lordkrall.7241:

Devata.6589:

Strange that you look at it that way. The way I look at it. Because this is a B2P game we should not get the F2P cash—shop focus but get an expansion every year we have to pay for if we want the content.

That is how I look at it. sadly it tunred into a cash-shop game that has the F2P negatives.

And you look at it like that because you are completely unable to understand how much work and money an expansion would take and thus it would not be possible to survive on expansions alone.

Well we did see that expansion based would likely earn them more money.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/NcSoft-earnings-1Q-14/page/3#post4029793

Then there is ArenaNet’s statement that they deliver expansion-like content with the LS.

Haven’t seen much of it but that means that according to them it is in fact possible to deliver the same amount of content using the cash-shop focus that does not generate more money as pure expansions every year. Suggesting it should be possible but in your defense since ArenaNet did not deliver it might support your point.

Lastly there is GW2 that purely exists because of the success of GW1 that in fact did use expansions as there main source of income.

So you are making an interesting statements but does not seem to fit the facts as we have them.

Amere.9607:

Jasper.9341:

Remember when it used to be okay for people who play a game to be successful in it? Right now, the only fast and reliable way to make game gold is to go to your real life boss and ask him for some overtime to buy gems and convert to gold. Which may give Anet some boost short term.
Personally I never buy gold like this. So what if I could get that shiny legendary? I would not deserve it and it would feel like cheating. And lets say next week they launch some nice armor skins….do I rush to buy more gems? I think not…
I believe that Anet really went too far with the commercialization, given how competitive the MMO market is.
Buying gold for real life cash should not exist at all. Tho this is a buy to play game, so we are willing to accept it as an alternative for the slackers and those who earn too much to care about the cash. However there has to be a way for the people who actually play the game to be successful at it too. Farming should not be a crime.
This last patch, 20th may, is a good indication of the direction this game is heading…

you are, in my opinion, so… mistaken about stuff, that’s it really hard to comment. there are ways to bump or vice versa gem/gold convertion. game isn’t stiff about it, even more – u can gain everything with gold and gold/playtime value changes all the time.

the game, gw2 is fair, good, cool whatever. it is amazing in all its core components, some ppl dislike asura voice acting for story, i love them – it’s like how i would like to sound when english is my ‘main’

nah, game itself is good, in my opinion – close to perfect.

but, without economy, organic demand/supply understanding and legendary system, that burries so much content in favor of grind/rng/luck..

you know, it’s just sad, game with such amazing visuals, ideas and even stuff around ‘code’ goes for ‘rng’ here’s problem

‘rng’ is not always bad. I don’t mind that a boss has an x drop-rate for a y skin.
Problem here is that it’s all such a gold grind. You say ‘you you can get gold to buy it’. Yeah you can grind gold to get the skins you like, the mini’s you like, to level crafting, it helps you get the legendary. But direly working towards something is not possible because stuff is behind general drops or the cash-shop.

That is the whole problem, everything has become a gold-grind in favor of the cash-shop.

And is it not grinding gold then it is farming achievements against time before the end of the LS.

You know how cool the whole dye system could have been if they just had put them in the world behind specific content. Or if crafting meant you could early easy farm the mats but had to collect the recipe’s all over the world (again as specific drops). It would give people stuff to do for over a year and people would naturally be exploring the world even > lvl 80.
Then after a year an expansion for more stuff to do.

Stark.1350:

Devata.6589:

Stark.1350:

I play every day. I lead a great guild that’s constantly growing. We have guild events every other day. Always find something to do.

What sort of stuff do you guys organise?

Arah nights for Dungeon Master runs. Diving Goggle runs. Mini dungeon runs. Guild pvp night. Guild WvW night. Dungeon nights. Silly things like costume brawl races or beach parties. Event nights for alts. 1v1 tournaments. No UI nights (that’s a riot). World boss nights. Guild missions every Saturday. Jumping puzzle nights. Jumping puzzle races. Guild hide n’seek. Edge of the Mists night. We’ve had a costume contest. Last day in L.A. party. Pink Day in L.A. for breast cancer awareness. Belcher’s Bluff nights. The list goes on.

We did do more events in the pass but it has become hard getting all the people to sign up for events.. and well most can’t play at night.

Gonna try some of these out, thnx for the idea’s.

Jasper.9341:

Tho this is a buy to play game, so we are willing to accept it

Strange that you look at it that way. The way I look at it. Because this is a B2P game we should not get the F2P cash—shop focus but get an expansion every year we have to pay for if we want the content.

That is how I look at it. sadly it tunred into a cash-shop game that has the F2P negatives.

Stark.1350:

I play every day. I lead a great guild that’s constantly growing. We have guild events every other day. Always find something to do.

What sort of stuff do you guys organise?

Brother Grimm.5176:

Trouble.3859:

…… I remember a few years ago when Arenanet insisted that Guild Wars 2 would be a game with no grind…..

You remember wrong. It was stated that the game would not have REQUIRED grind. No MMO can exist without some sort of progression that requires time and effort at the end game. Still, you don’t HAVE to perform the grind to obtain sufficient equipment to actually PLAY the game.

Some of the OPs statements are not untrue, but the repeated misquote of this one item (NO GRIND) is stated FAR too many times in FAR too many posts as rallying cry of POed players and it is factually incorrect.

I am pretty sure they said no grind. Anyway the term ‘required grind’ would be nonsense anyway. It’s a game nothing is required. However I would like to collect skins. That is my game-play. If I would want to do that it means grinding gold.. because of that it’s not my game-play in GW2 as I don’t like grinding gold but yeah to get those things I would be ‘required’ to get gold. Of course it’s a game so you do not have to get those skins and so are not ‘required’ to grind. And thats so for everything in a game as it’s a game.

Amere.9607:

That would mean that the game would become less of a gold-grind because you can get most items in the game-word itself and running around with a zerg is not so rewarding anymore because if everybody starts to loot one type of content the value of that item will drop because it overflows on the TP.

nope just, it’s not how it works and even if you still have to deal with, minimum 2 different mindsets out there. skins aren’t expensive because they are rare, they are expensive because most of community doesn’t give a **** about skins, they just want to play the game.

and there’s abstract demand/suply “economy” for rare pink swords, when not that much ppl need them. biggest game problem is that, there no “unite” good for all players (ecto globe let’s say), that would evaluete all stuff on market…. na, market is built around hunting some rare stuff. and in the end every1 is hunting gold just to stay in touch.

so economy goes around bags and salvagalable stuff, but legendaries and precursors are flipped by ac flippers. easy as that – if there was economy based on grind and, you know, supply chains with mats and bag – precursors are just random like, you know, some1 was crafting hammers for weeks,days, years and crafted a “legendary whatever-hammer” ::)

because that’s how economy and production works gw2 tries to keep prices (+/- it does that, if ur not buing silks that is)… and in the end you have “state economy”, something that communism shouldn’t be, but became in the end. :]

Exacly how it works. If I want and specific skin or item I can not work directly for it so what is the only option? Grinding gold. And if people would not care about hem prices would be lower in fact. Not higher.

Galen Grey.4709:

Thats preciesly the source of the problem ProtoGunner but I disagree that shifting reward will ever solve anything. It will just spiral in a vicious circle. Think about it so you make Veteran loot just as good if not better then champion loot, now you get a veteran train and those veteran karka will be child’s play to kill. So now If you want a challenge you have to fight champions, in small groups of 2 or 3 players champions are a joy to fight.

But now we’re back to square one champions arent worth fighting because veterans have such good rewards so we improve their rewards once again and now we’re back to square one. Repeat ad infinitum.

What I Am trying to say is this is not something that can be fixed through rewards this is about what players really value.

Arenanet made a game that empowers players by not limiting them in anyway. In your typical MMO there will not be a zerg train making champion mobs trivial to kill because your typical mmo has mob tagging. Your typical MMO uses such rules to force you to play by its rules not by how you want to play it.

Your typical MMO will have players enjoying the difficulty of its veteran level equivalent not because it drops better loot then the champion equivalent but because veteran level is more accessable. Its more accessable not because Gw2 does anything wrong but because your typical mmo creates barriers for players to tackle the champion equivalent. You need the proper group composition, if someone else engages the boss you need to wait for it to respawn you cant simply join in. If you dont have a party you need to create one can simply join a party thats already there etc…

But all this freedom comes at a price. The game doesnt force any direction on the player but the player now has to take the direction they want themselves and seems to me a lot of times they find themselves conflicted between extrinsic rewards and intrinsic rewards. In a lot of cases a lot of people seems to choose extrinsic over intrinsic even though generally intrinsic is more fulfilling.

You know we talked a lot about how I find the cash-shop is bad for the game. Well here is one of your examples.

No you need specific rewarding loot in specific places. Problem is that the type of loot they should put there is the stuff they are selling in the cash-shop.

For example, the Karka can drop one specific color that does not drop any-ware else and is not in the cash-shop (but can be sold on the TP) and it can drop a mini-version of itself and it can drop a specific skin.

Now another boss drops another mini and another color another skin.

Yet another boss only drops a specific skin and so on.

Meanwhile you make sure you have less general drops and don’t have that sort of rewards in the cash-shop.

That would mean that the game would become less of a gold-grind because you can get most items in the game-word itself and running around with a zerg is not so rewarding anymore because if everybody starts to loot one type of content the value of that item will drop because it overflows on the TP.

Besides gold would then also be not as important to get anything as it is now.

In addition make mats farmable as well and gone is your vicious circle.

Yeah I do agree. In fact I suggested this like 1,5 year ago, it’s more freedom and allows for more freedom (new tactics). Especially if you can also sit and have the collision then also be lower. There are however some problems like people being able to block an entrance to something so it would not work well in city’s. For the rest it should not be a problem. Sure it’s an extra troll option but simply add it to the report list. If people troll all the time they can get a temporary ban or whatever.

Another cool option but a problem in GW2 is that you can stand on top of each other. It would make for way more interesting WvW game-play as a small group would be able to climb up a wall. More tactics!

However GW2 has invisible walls all over the place and they do not want you to get over that.

I know AA has collision detection but it’s a big open world and everybody has a hover mount so things like blocking or getting to a place you are not supposed to get to is not an issue there.

Still I do think it would be a good idea to have collision detection but Anet does not seem to like the freedom it gives. Most systems in GW2 are extremely controlled not giving the players a lot of freedom to be inventive and when they do, it usually get patched out. (like using consumables in WvW)

About the enemy collision detection. One of the thinks that are so frustrating in this game is the way you are most likely to die because of ’ bad design’ feeling you are being cheated all the time, like jumping on a wall that has no collision detection or mobs that keep re-spawning before you cleared the group (they should try to prevent mobs from spawning near you or in you LoS as much as possible) or mobs that suddenly run back to there spawn-place in the middle of a fight and another one (coming to the point) has to do with pushing. A mob can push me of the edge of a cliff killing me and that’s fine however I should also be able to do the same to him but I can’t. So if that then also would be possible that would be nice.

About collision detection being hard for the servers. It’s mainly done client-side.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

I don’t think it’s fair to suggest that the people who make this sort of posts are the ones that jump from mmo to mmo. Sure it’s true that GW2 was lucky with not have many other mmo releases so far however it did. FF and ESO and I did not see many of those threads / comments then, much more now.

Is it really so hard to accept a lot of people like Gw2 as is?

Gw2 had to fight a lot more then 2 releases and each and every time there were threads about how the new MMO was going to make the player base jump ship.

Tera, The secret world, ESO, FFXIV, Neverwinter, rift going F2P, dragon prophet, Raiderz, Swtor going F2P, age of wushu, darkfall unholy wars,

not to mention the many minor/different genre blockbasters releases like city of steam and planetside2.

And to mention expansion packs for other popular MMOs.

The problem with listening to player’s feedback is you’ll always get two polar opposites:

-We need raid content
-No to raids I dont have the time to be a dedicated raid player and so no guild will ever have me.

- we need more hard content
- Tequalt is ridiculous, its impossible to win unless you’re in one of these organize servers

- we need the trinity back
- no to the trinity

etc…

Arenanet do the sensible thing they try to design content that addresses player needs without ruining for other people that like the opposite stuff.

Tequalt and the Wurm for example, requires raid like co-ordination to succeed but casuals can still join and contribute.

The marionette arena was a good example of content that required co-ordination without introducing the trinity. When you were lucky to share the arena with a group that knew the game is not just DPS fights went smoothly and we’d be done with enough time to spare that we’d do a commentary of how the fight of our lane was going for the people outside.

Unfortunately a lot of people seem to forget this is an MMO and in an MMO you have a great variety of people who like different things. If people dont get exactly what they ask for letter for letter then its Anet not listening to a single suggestion we give cause you know Tequalt and Wurm arent hard content, or content that requires co-ordination etc..

Well define ‘a lot’ but lets take initial sales (and how many people liked GW2 the first 6 months) as 100% and a lot being then at least 75%.

Looking at GW1’s expansions sales that in fact stayed around 100% (some might have left but new might have come in)

No it’s not hard to accept but it is hard to believe. I think < 50% of the people that where really liked GW2 back then still like is that much. Most will have dislikes and would like to see elements different to make it more fun. You think it’s still a lot. Well we both can’t really know.

“Gw2 had to fight a lot more then 2 releases and each and every time there were threads about how the new MMO was going to make the player base jump ship.”
Been active here for over a year now and no I have not see many of those threads.. I did see threads like “if x does not change people will jump over when another game comes around”. I am also not sure what other releases you are talking about. I did forget about Neverwinter but the other games you name don’t really count. TSW was released around the same time as GW2, I did mention ESO and FF, rift and Swtor was older and only went F2P (what is not a good sign), the other games you mentioned are no big names and / or not at all comparable to GW2.

“
-We need raid content
-No to raids I don’ t have the time to be a dedicated raid player and so no guild will ever have me.
”
And then they listen to the ‘no raid’? How about if you don’t have time you don’t do them?

“
- we need more hard content
- Tequalt is ridiculous, its impossible to win unless you’re in one of these organize servers
”
Main complain about Tequatl I have seen is that it needs organization but that’s not easy to organize on a map. For sure there might have been people who complained about it but that never really sicked very long (so not much support)

“
- we need the trinity back
- no to the trinity
”
More hearth complain is that everything is dps and so comes down to just smashing keys missing teamwork. So make more specific roles. That do not have to be the trinity roles.

The threads that keep sticking are usually not the No trinity vs trinity but the ones that can easily make both groups happy.

The way they do it makes both groups unhappy, as your own examples show. You mean it as positives but many complains about Teq are that organized groups have troubles killing it because of pugs.

The marionette, you say yourself “if you get in a good group”. Now you see why some people want raids? So they can compare the groups themselves.

Azrael.4960:

One of the problems that Anet is having with GW2 is that a lot of the player base were avid fans of GW1, including myself. Anet put out 2 extra campaigns 1 and 2 years after the first campaign was released. This spoiled a lot of the players since two extra campaigns within 2 years of the first release is an enormous amount of content. Translating that expectation over to GW2, which has had significantly less content compared to GW1, has of course meant disappointment.

While not a huge GW1 fan there name Anet they had with the B2P model was indeed something that did draw me in. However I (and I think with me many) do not expect an expansion every half year (about with GW1 did). I did one every year maybe the first expansion a little later because of extra work after initial release. But we are closing in on two years and there is not even an expansion planned.

So it’s not so much as being spoiled (as I personally are not a Gw1 fan) but it’s more expecting a true B2P model but getting a cash-shop game with all it negative side effects.

Exactly trying to avoid that was what pulled me to GW2.

The cash-shop focus happened.

Algreg.3629:

Devata.6589:

Algreg.3629:

winterchillz.2564:

And why is this topic not on their forums? :o

oh, it is, but of cause, you have to switch the GW2 position for WS and WS position for some next big upcoming thing :P

I don’t think it’s fair to suggest that the people who make this sort of posts are the ones that jump from mmo to mmo. Sure it’s true that GW2 was lucky with not have many other mmo releases so far however it did. FF and ESO and I did not see many of those threads / comments then, much more now.

The thing is that people have been on the forums giving feedback to GW2 for almost two years now (including beta) and it has pretty much been ignored. People did ask for more raid-like content, people did ask for more hard content, people did ask for more specific roles to have more team-play, they asked for more horizontal progression. All pretty much ignored. The people are still here two years later so they did give Anet time. However at some point people stop waiting and of then another game comes by that promises those thinks and then people will move on.

I looked for a MMO to play for many years as I don’t like hopping from mmo to mmo. About half a year after release I become more active on the forums giving feedback. Back that most of the problems weren’t yet as big as now it where more warnings all ignored. Now we are getting to the point where I can say “I told yo so” however I would rather have that Anet did something with the feedback they got in stead of ignoring most of it.

For now I stay and have a look but also for me there will also be a moment that I won’t wait any longer if nothing changes. In that case my list of things an mmo (and it’s company) has to comply has become way longer.

I would love to see the good times I have had in GW2 with many guild-members relive but stuff really has to change for most of them to come back to GW2 as many of them seem to already have leaved for-good. And no many did not hop on to another MMO, they just got bored by GW2.

The thing is, it is a good thing for Anet they did not listen to those players. GW2 is very succesful, it has a comparatively huge player base and it appeals to the people it was made for. GW2 oozes and breathes “casual”. Even with some additions for “hardcore” players, this will remain its heart and soul and it will always affect the “hardcore” content. Sure, they can give us insanely difficult challenges, but they can never make it worthwhile – otherwise, they would exclude their key audience of comparatively unskilled players. That is not a bad thing. GW2 is not a bad game. GW2 is just not for me, I hung on so long because of a mixture of nostalgia, friends starting with me at launch and then the typical MMORPG trap: “I have invested so much time, all will be wasted when I quit”-nonsense.

PS: What is it with this Wowstar nonsense? If anything, WS combat is closer to GW2 or maybe TSW/TERA and could not be further from WoW.

Define casual? But isn’t going for skins also defined casual by many people? Isn’t going for skins exactly what GW2 focuses on and so what player-base it focuses on.

That however is exactly what they monetize effectively taking it out of the game. No teamwork also gets boring for more casual players. Easy content also gets boring for casual players. The only thing I can come up with that would be really something for hardcore players if having to put a lot of time into the game. Well with all the gold-grind and LS that keeps coming up that might be more something for the hardcore player then for the casual.

They indeed try to focus on the casual player, and then they try monetize exactly that effectively taking away the game-play for those people.

So I have to disagree with you on that. It’s not so great for many casual gamers any-more and Anet could have fixed that by listening to the feedback.

About the raids and so on. Yes if you just want hard raids then there is also WoW, of course stuff is different in Wildstar and so it is in every game.

Nick.6972:

Devata.6589:

Nick.6972:

I personally don’t care about the dialogues or story, or quests, or anything lore, I want "bad kitten battles.

Try Battlefield?

I think in GW2 it’s mainly the teamwork that is missing. I do not know how that will be in Wildstar.

Huge raids and dungeons?

No, for the battles.

I suggested that it’s likely the teamwork you (and many now moving on to WS) are missing.

GW2 has dungeons but they do not require real teamwork making them boring pretty fast. And the world-bosses are supposed to be the raid stuff I guess but once again because of the way it’s set up teamwork is not a real option.

It’s something GW2 has to work on (and people have said that for over a year on this forum).

We need more defined roles. I am not necessarily taking about the holy trinity, there are many ways. You can make a role for minions, a role that helps to be sneaky and a portal role (just using classes that are already in the game) and with some good AI and level design you can make them an essential part of team-work. Of course there can also be tanks and healers or / and look at the way roles work in Pokemon. Different types have there own speciality and the one is strong against the other but weak against yet another (I do think it’s strange that I can fight a fire mob with fire in GW2, makes no sense). Put multiple types in a dungeon and don’t allow to switch classes from the initial group (one ranger leaves or one person from role x leaves and only a ranger or other person with the same role can come in). Then you can also make roles that are stronger against other roles while weaker against yet another role.

Then you would have teamwork and stuff would again get really interesting.

Algreg.3629:

winterchillz.2564:

And why is this topic not on their forums? :o

oh, it is, but of cause, you have to switch the GW2 position for WS and WS position for some next big upcoming thing :P

I don’t think it’s fair to suggest that the people who make this sort of posts are the ones that jump from mmo to mmo. Sure it’s true that GW2 was lucky with not have many other mmo releases so far however it did. FF and ESO and I did not see many of those threads / comments then, much more now.

The thing is that people have been on the forums giving feedback to GW2 for almost two years now (including beta) and it has pretty much been ignored. People did ask for more raid-like content, people did ask for more hard content, people did ask for more specific roles to have more team-play, they asked for more horizontal progression. All pretty much ignored. The people are still here two years later so they did give Anet time. However at some point people stop waiting and of then another game comes by that promises those thinks and then people will move on.

I looked for a MMO to play for many years as I don’t like hopping from mmo to mmo. About half a year after release I become more active on the forums giving feedback. Back that most of the problems weren’t yet as big as now it where more warnings all ignored. Now we are getting to the point where I can say “I told yo so” however I would rather have that Anet did something with the feedback they got in stead of ignoring most of it.

For now I stay and have a look but also for me there will also be a moment that I won’t wait any longer if nothing changes. In that case my list of things an mmo (and it’s company) has to comply has become way longer.

I would love to see the good times I have had in GW2 with many guild-members relive but stuff really has to change for most of them to come back to GW2 as many of them seem to already have leaved for-good. And no many did not hop on to another MMO, they just got bored by GW2.

The way I levelled alts in other mmo’s was very different. I love to explore but never went exploring to explore, that more happened along the way.

I usually has my goals. For example, I started one character with some fun-craft (they do not exist in GW2 but think of something like engineering in GW). I was mainly focused on doing that. I needed an item or a recipe an so I would slowly level up the craft and at the same time I was levelling my char.. Not really busy levelling it simply happened.
When I was somewhere and I saw something interesting in the distance I went to check it out. That was my exploring and I hat fun all the way.

Another alt like a ranger I would start looking for race and special pets usually combined with trying to collect mini’s in the world. Then again also send me all over the world finding the pets and collecting the mini’s.

Then you take another alt on another faction who has it’s own mini’s or fun-craft and mounts and so on.

Most of those things are just not possible in GW2. Skins, mini’s are all behind just a gold-grind (best to do at lvl 80), fun-crafts don’t exist, exploring is also not that great because of the smaller maps, no seamless world and no mounts and also crafting is mainly a gold-grind what mean you better have a lvl 80 to grind to gold for your crafting.

Nick.6972:

I personally don’t care about the dialogues or story, or quests, or anything lore, I want "bad kitten battles.

Try Battlefield?

I think in GW2 it’s mainly the teamwork that is missing. I do not know how that will be in Wildstar.

It’s both Ncsoft so you will likely see the same type of cash-grabbing. On the other hand Wildstar seems to be more open about it. They have a cash-shop model with the requirement to buy or optional buy a subscription. You can also earn time ingame but I’m not sure if that’s really a good option.

Really if you don’t like what happened with GW2 you should not go play Wildstar and so effectively support the same company.

There are also other alternatives that seem to be even more like what GW2 said it would be. A game like AA for example. However I would not be surprise if that also will be a lot of grinding with there F2P model.

For me Wildstar don’t work. I have no problem with the cartoon style, that makes it more timeless. However it’s like they copied WoW and then did throw in aliens (bad fit imho). In addition they took a look at games like Team Fortress and tried to copy that humor. What is nice but I just don’t see it work in an MMORPG.

If none of that bothers you the combat might be fun idk. But then there is still WoW that has proven itself. Movement is however kinda outdated so that might be an pro on Wildstar vs WoW.

Still know that you are basically supporting the same company.

While the game has become much more alt-friendly then it was there is still one problem. Everything is gold, (seems to be cash-shop related but that’s yet another discussion) and because everything is gold one would like to get the best possible drops to sell.

However loot is depended on your level so lower level alts will always get lower level drops (that is normal but in most mmo’s is not a big problem, in GW2 is is a problem because of the gold is everything design) what makes levelling alts very unrewarding.

So is that the reason you don’t want to level the alts? Because if you simply don’t like the game-play of those alts why would you want to level them in the first place?

Rynn.1324:

darkace.8925:

Nick.6972:

Rezz.8019:

What is the point of expansion….

It’s like movie sequels. No quality but just there to make extra money. I prefer it the way it is now without any expansions or anything like that.

Living Story is exactly what you described and worse.

Much worse. The content released via Living Story is of significantly lower quality and contains significantly more bugs than that released via expansion.

No, no it’s not. The only difference is that it comes in short intervals, and thus you don’t get the “OMG SO SHINY AND NEW” effect as an expansion.

Expansion in most games tend to have the singular purpose of raising the level cap, resetting progress markers, and throwing everybody back on the hamster wheel. Given GW2’s game design, it doesn’t lend itself well to that, and quite frankly I would drop the game very quickly if I thought they were going down that route. If you want to play the power creep shuffle, there are plenty of other games for that.

While I did see many people here ask for expansion I did not see them ask for things like raising the level-cap and resetting progress markers. If you have a second look it seems most are mainly asking for horizontal progression.

The LS did not add much of that. In fact much of the horizontal progression (you know like getting skins) is taken out of it to put in the cash-shop. An expansion could hold a new set of mini’s like we did but if it’s in the world it could take you a year to collect them all. Put them in the cash-shop and it’s all a gold-grind if you even still care. I don’t care much about them as collecting is not fun anymore. There are just a few sets of mini’s I like because of the looks.

All in all the LS is a grind of events and achievements against time to complete the achievements and get the rewards. All the time having a timer over your head. It’s really interesting.. I don’t like sub-based games because they put a timer over your head (play for when you payed) and GW2 has a cash-shop game that managed to create that same feeling and has the negatives of F2P games and still needing to buy the game. Going from one the best model with GW2 to creating maybe the worst model. It’s impressing.

Anyway, that’s really very different from what most expansions give. At least horizontal progression is still a game-play element and is fun in those games and can keep you busy up until the next expansion. In GW2 that part is taken out (moved to the cash-shop) or all boils down to a boring gold-grind. More thanks to the cash-shop focus then to the LS but one can see how the two go hand in hand.

hedix.1986:

Moss.5371:

“As for expansion, we are now focused on the Living World production, have not considered this issue.”

Mike O’Brien, yesterday
http://news.17173.com/content/2014-05-17/20140517123651663_1.shtml

Wait what?! “Not considered the issue”? After a negative reception to the Living World, noted by the CDI, and playerbase’s pleas for an expansion. Really.
A pity, I liked this game.

What issue is he talking about in the first place (there are so many)? My Chinese is not what it used to be.

southbeatz.2780:

I believe Anet will make an expansion but it could be a year or more out still, if they do it at all. Since Anet wants to work on the LS, they need to make more of the LS content permanent. I don’t say permanent just so that people can replay it over and over but also for people that may have missed some of the LS. Not everyone has the time to get on a MMO daily or even weekly so they shouldn’t have to miss out on content due to having things in the real world take up their time.

I can make time whenever usually but I would like to see Anet improve the LS since they want to use that. There’s no point in wanting an expansion month after month in different threads when Anet has clearly said they would not make an expansion yet.

I think the current model is probably best. Buy the game, play the game. Cash shop is optional but nothing really pay to win but surely creates profit for Anet. Completely free to play is a bad idea because it allows far too many annoying people in the game, especially young kids.

My only complaint about the cash shop is that I wish Anet would add better looking skins. If you’re short on money then there’s a chance you’ve got free time so you can farm gold and buy gems. Also for anyone that rushes through a LS update in an a few hours is probably in the minority.

I remember people doing LS stuff well into when the next bi-weekly LS update would be added so either all those people in the game are just doing it just to do it or they enjoy it and are not rushing through it. This is nothing new on MMOs though. A dev releases new content and there are always some people that will rush through it and then complain about being bored, not enough to do, not enough content, update was too small.

While this happens there are still many people enjoying the content.

“Cash shop is optional but nothing really pay to win” “My only complaint about the cash shop is that I wish Anet would add better looking skins.”
So it’s just fine for the game that you take stuff out of the game (that skin) and put in in the cash-shop eliminating the game-play of hunting down those items in the game-world?

And what is your definition of P2W? If that item was in the world dropping from a boss or whatever would that not be a win, at least for those people hunting it down. And would putting it in the cash-shop then not be a form of P2W as you pay for what you would else win?

Yeah you might not get an easier kill (P2Kill) but not everybody cares about killing or stats. So what is P2W to you and why is taking those elements out of the game and so eliminating game-play no problem?

KarlaGrey.5903:

Why make an expansion when there’s enough kittens feeding the gem store.
Besides, the marketting hoax only works the first time. No way they can conjure up the same hype and expect ppl to fall for it AGAIN (not all of them, at least).

Well if they promise to go really B2P starting with the next expansion it’s possible. But if they would stay cash-shop focused again sales will be much lower. And hyping it by saying it would not go B2P might help but if it turned out to be a lie sales of expansions after that will be much lower.

They already destroyed there good name. Maybe they don’t care but only a switch back and a mea culpa would help. So far however there is no mea culpa but just stubborn.

Smith.1826:

I do want an expansion, but more than that I want the gameplay and reward progression not dictated by the ‘free-to-play’ model – because while the game is ‘free-to-play’, it’s also to gain a buck, and running into such payment-model dictated gameplay is the same reason I can’t enjoy sub-based games.

I feel that expansion packs are not only the least intruding to gameplay and reward progression, they also make the most sense. “Like the game? Well how about buying more game?”

If I had to choose between the two – subscription or completely free-to-play – then sure, I’m gonna pick f2p, but neither are what I signed up for.

Yeah I completely agree.