Guild Wars 2

chemiclord.3978:

I’m not disproving anything because you’ve offered nothing to disprove. And if I was insulting you, believe me, there’d be little doubt. You’re a smart person, but with these massive blinders on that you refuse to take off.

Your entire problem has NOTHING to do with the gem store. There are items you want that you don’t want to have to pay for. You want them for free. And you think, “Oh, if we only had a traditional expansion model, all this stuff in the store would be in game!”

Or is it “quick and dirty” development that’s your problem? I can never tell, your rationalizations change so frequently it’s hard to keep up sometimes.

You want expansions. Nothing else is acceptable to you. That’s all there is to it.

No I don’t want them for free, not in a pay way and not in a no effort in-game way. I am willing to pay for it (you do understand that I expect an expansion to cost money) and I WANT to do effort for it in-game.

That effort is my game-play. I love to go into the world to find rare mini’s and work to get them. If i’m a ranger I love to search for rare or special looking pets. I don’t want to get them handed to me and I don’t want to grind gold for them because I think thats boring but I want to go into the world to get them (and that may be very hard) because that is one of the things that I like to to in a MMORPG. That is my type of game-play. For some it might be getting high gear items or sPvP for me it’s those sort of things.

I do hope that if they use expansions they would indeed change that. Knowing it for sure you never do but they are now forced to try and get people to buy gems because thats how they generate there income. If they are not forced to do that anymore because they generate income with regular expansions then they are more likely to indeed change that. Do I know for sure they will? No. Do I expect they will? Yes because I do still have that much trust in them.

The “quick and dirty” is something else. I keep running into things that bordered me in this game and at some point I figured out what where the root causes for those things.

Biggest was being caused by a focus on micro-transaction (like the once talked about here).

Other seem to be related to “quick and dirty” development and yet other to doing thinks different pure for the sake of doing it different. Stuff discussed here has many to do with the cash-shop focus.

And other things are acceptable to me. But it also has to be possible and those thinks that I want will likely mean less cash-shop sales what will not work for them if they use that to generate there main income.
I don’t want expansions I want those things I said but the one of the only ways to make that possible is if they use expansions to generate income in stead of micro-transactions.

chemiclord.3978:

Then there is no problem with a gem store, because the quality will come through their updates.

Again, the “problem” is not the gem store. The problem is that you don’t think the quality of the content is there. That quality will not magically appear with a change in revenue stream except in your own head.

The “problem” is you have a bias towards boxed expansions, and it’s tainting your judgement of anything that does meet your narrow wants.

The quality of a product. I am mainly talking about game-play elements. Define quality?
There is a gold-grind in this game. The gold-grind helps to generate income by the cash-shop because people are then more likely to buy gold.

Most mini’s are in the cash-shop that means they are not in the game-world. So the game-play element of collecting mini’s in the world is gone because of that.

Want to get them anyway, there is the gold-grind again.

Same for many skins or dye-colors.. Why are they mainly general drops of unidentified dyes? Why not put a specific color in a specific place so people can do that content to hunt down that color? Maybe because then people can get colors they like that way? Now the best way to get the color you want is again grinding gold. So gold is everything and that is important for the cash-shop.

There are some specific colors available.. in the cash-shop. Want them? Grind gold or buy it with cash.

You pretty much have to be blind to not see the link.

If i’m ‘bias’ towards boxed expansions then thats because of you see these sort of things in micro-transaction focused games. I don’t want it just for the fun of having that. I want that because of these sort of things.

Anyway, try to insult as much as you want. The fact that you are now coming with these sort of things not trying to disprove what I say about missing game-play elements and gold-grind (can’t really disprove it, it’s there) proves enough by itself.

And no we can’t know for sure that it would stop without because nobody can look in the future. But now they are pretty much forced to do these sort of things and that would be gone. So maybe if they are a company that wants to deliver a great game then it will change. I guess I still have that much of trust in them. You don’t it seems.

chemiclord.3978:

Devata.6589:

chemiclord.3978:

Devata wants a traditional expansion model.

Feel free to cut out the rest of his/her meandering posts; it’s all flimsy rationalization.

I want that because the micro-transaction based model is messing with the game.

The rest of the post is telling why or / and how it is doing that..

And you have yet to explain how changing to an expansion model changes the company’s behavior outside of, “Because I say it will.” A lazy developers who cranks out cheap content isn’t going to become a nose to the grindstone publisher looking to studiously create quality content because they’ve switched production model. They’ll produce lazy, cheap expansions.

I say that when they focus on micro-transactions they will have to turn to this sort of things. Else they don’t sell enough gems. With a focus on expansions at least the main incentive to to that is gone.

I never said they will but when the incentive it gone then maybe they will. Now they pretty much have to do these things. If they want to sell expansions quality is more important so in a way the incentive to create quality even go’s up.

I don’t think they are lazy developers.

Reichbane.6297:

Devata.6589:

I can easily make 63 gold but I don’t want to grind golf to buy the items that I want!

Then you don’t REALLY have the right to complain. There’s an exchange rate available. You’re too lazy to do it. You want everything handed to you. Go play games that give that to you instead of mucking up our community with complaints and anger over the most ridiculous things.

Lol so you read or only rant? I want to get the stuff in the game (nice how you did not quote that part). That does not mean I want to get it for free, or get it handed to me or whatever. It might be more work to get it in-game then it would now need to grind the gold. Still I would want to get it that way because thats more fun! And you might have forgotten that as you seem to be a grinder, but games should be about fun.

Removing a whole game-play element, turning everything into a kitten grind (what so many people are complaining about) is far from a ridiculous thing to ‘muck’ about.

Reichbane.6297:

So far by the logic displayed in this thread even a freaking expansion is P2W. Since they usually come with better items. So everyone who buys expansions is just a P2W noob. You know what? Let’s take it a step further. Since apparently the fact that there’s a kittening exchange rate between gold and gems is an invalid point and that doesn’t matter, the cash shop is still P2W, let’s say that buying the game at all is P2W.

And I’m sorry but if you don’t have the the ability to make 63 gold (currently what 1k gems is worth), maybe you don’t deserve the item anyway, and you’re probably the type of person that complains about how, long legendaries take to make.

Yes. The achievement isn’t permanent, but it’s been here for a pretty long time already, and I started on it last week, just got it today. After seven runs of the Marrionette. So complain more. But you’re just being ridiculous.

You talking to me? Last part would suggest you did but I did not say anything about P2W what you are talking about in the first part.

I can easily make 63 gold but I don’t want to grind golf to buy the items that I want! Already said that multiple times.
For many people the fun is going into the world and there going for that items. By doing a quest, by doing a dungeon hell by farming a specific type of mob. But the fun is going for that item, and doing so whenever you feel like it.
Not grinding gold day in day out to buy the item. Have been doing that for a while and it gets boring very soon. Now that might be the whole point because then some people might start buying gold with gems.

By itself all temporary achievements are very doable. However that does not help because it keeps coming. 1 week from now a new list then 2 weeks later a new list then again and again all do it now or miss out forever.

chemiclord.3978:

Devata wants a traditional expansion model.

Feel free to cut out the rest of his/her meandering posts; it’s all flimsy rationalization.

I want that because the micro-transaction based model is messing with the game.

The rest of the post is telling why or / and how it is doing that..

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

@Devata – Considering most of this isn’t about the pick anymore, not gonna run off topic further.

But I point out again, in this topic now the only new thing is the Gems-to-Gold conversion when looking between the grind in GW1 and the grind in GW2. It’s still for “the shiny hotness”, it’s still for a questionable amount of edge sometimes, and it’s still not even really needed to get through the game as it exists currently.

Considering GW1 offered skill unlock packs for sale which reduced the tedium and expense of going around to find and unlock them all (which could be a substantial amount of platinum and grinding skill points), the whole “pay money to avoid the grind” isn’t new at all to this company.

If you couldn’t (legitimately) convert Gold to Gems and then into whatever you felt like, you could do it illegitimately which happened in GW1. (Not commonly, but if you knew where to look . . .) This isn’t new from this company, and trying to place it on the Gem Store for how things are going . . .

It just doesn’t hold up.

As for “do it now or lose out forever” options? There were Festival Hats in GW1, which still were pretty limited in availability. Especially since they required you to be present on one exact day at an exact time or miss out.

I do find it’s related to the topic because it’s about how the cash-shop works but indeed it might be a bid to much into details not directly related. So will also not go on much longer abound it.

Still like I said. for enough people going for the fluff is the game-play they like. So the fact thats it’s ‘not needed’ does not really care. I would love to see fun-crafts in GW2. Crafts where you can make fun items.. not items you need just fun. That is also a type of game-play.

I did not play a lot of GW1 but as far as I did I think there was less need for gold-grind.

The problem is not so much that you can convert gold but the way they try you to buy it. As long as they would put mini’s in the game-world (of course now they can’t because it’s how they make money) and also many weapons and skins so you can get them in specific places then you can do specific content to get them. Farm the items.

Now in many cases you can’t because it are world drops so it becomes a gold-grind. Thats one of the problems.

The hats where a line of items that indeed worked like that. I see that as something different because it was this separate line (only cosmetic hats). They are now doing that with all sort of items and all the time.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

So you buy, grind gold or grind achievements.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

“Grind achievements”.

11 days out of 28 fighting either the Marionette or Great Jungle Wurm, maximum. And if you happen to be in on a good successful Marionette run, it’s probably shortened to around 7. And if you do more than one Marionette fight and vary things a bit, you can get down even further I’m sure. That’s a grind?

I mean, I get people want to slap the word “grind” on “they want me to do stuff more than once” but . . . seriously? Seven days out of a month with some active play, or eleven where you just show up for a half hour. I just want to reiterate this point. There was nothing ANet was doing stopping people complaining here about not having sprockets from getting their bonus node.

So you need to play this month to get the sprockets advantages.

A break? no can’t do. And every 2 weeks they add a new achievement list (last time a very small one but still) and then 2 weeks later again and then 2 weeks later again and then again and then again and then again now already for over a year.

Yeah even if it’s not a lot of work that still makes it a grind. If it would not be temporary that would be a whole other story but now it keeps on going thats why it’s a grind.

Next to that is the constant gold-grind. Being it for the normal things (mats and so on) but they also always have temporary available items. There is a mini pack now, the pick, valentine stuff, not completely temporary but more ‘grind now or grind much more later… or buy!!!’.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They gotta make their money somehow, and they decided (for whatever reason) they wanted the cash shop route instead of constant expansions. I’m still not sure why achievement grind has to mean anything about the cash shop, but hey, that’s not the topic on hand so we’ll leave that question in the “never to be answered” box.

Still don’t understand why people want to subject themselves to grind in this game anyway. There’s really not a reason to, aside from chasing shiny cool stuff. (Notably, exactly what you ground for in the previous game but again, who cares about that?)

Yeah and the problem maybe is exactly that decision and they should rethink that. Many of the complains you see can be related to that decisions.

It’s most likely to try and keep people in the game. Make everything temporary so you have a good excuse to put temporary items in the cash-shop all the time. That to create the feeling of buy now or lose out forever.

People are subjected to grind because there is no other option for many things. You want to get a specific mini? Well most are in the cash-shop and end up in the TP. You can’t go hunt them down in the world so you need to grind for gold to then buy them.

Want high tier mats to create a legendary. You can’t really farm them in the world because they are mainly world loot drops or just to rare. best way to get them is grinding gold.

You want a specific skins. Again, many are world loot drops or cash-shop related so going for them in the open world in not an option except for buying gold.

Luckily you can of course buy gold with cash. wink wink.

Do you ever consider that chasing shiny cool stuff is what the game-play is about for many people? Not everybody is only looking for stats. BiS might be about stats for you but about a look / skin / shiny for somebody else.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Yes, except . . .

We all knew this going in, it was clearly stated last January about things being time-sensitive and limited-release. And while things were temporarily available they’ve also come back at least once now.

So you can’t even claim it’s a certainty they’ll offer it once and never again.

What has there claim from last January to do with anything? They have been doing this for over a year now and I dislike it for the beginning. Yes by now we know they do it that does not make it even a little bit better.

No it might come back. Likely also temporary so then you have a second change. Of course you can not be sure of it might not come back. Still does not make it better. Only thing what would make it better was if we knew it would come back later and then would be I the gameworld-forever. So getting it now would just give you that extra for lets say half year to a year. But even if that was the case it would only help if that was a known fact and it isn’t. Also it would still not be optimal. But better.

What I am asking for is get everything back, put it in the game-world where it belongs and make your money with expansions so we do not need to have more of this annoying ‘grind grind grind, or buy gold wink wink’ and “do it now or lose out forever” marketing stuff that doesn’t do the game any good.

Shakkara.2641:

Kjeldoran.3849:

you can’t decide for this, if anet decided to give all for free it is all for free and you are always free to spend your money for in game “P2W” (which aren’t) items. This thread is no-sense and the whole discussion is only damaging this great game for those who approach to the game for the first time.

Lol fanboy alert.

He made a great comment: Get rid of the cash shop and just release paid expansions every X time that have all the content we want.

Basically how GW1 operated.

It’s because they did that with GW1 that I expected them to do the same with GW2.. And the fact that they put it on the market as P2B not as micro-transaction based while thats what GW2 is now for the most part. That is how they generate there main income. Not with box-sales (including expansions).

Kjeldoran.3849:

Devata.6589:

Let me quote myself:
“So then they release an good quality expansion every year / year and a half. No cash-shop that effects the game-play and we pay them by buying the expansion.”

you can’t decide for this, if anet decided to give all for free it is all for free and you are always free to spend your money for in game “P2W” (which aren’t) items. This thread is no-sense and the whole discussion is only damaging this great game for those who approach to the game for the first time.

Problem is that it does effect the game. There focus on the cash-shop made it a big gold grind and taking multiple game-play elements out of the game.
I can;t decide but I can complain about what they do and you know, maybe some people there will change there mind. It’s really a shame for this game. It could have been much more then this never ending gold-grind.

Kjeldoran.3849:

Devata.6589:

How about not having the cash-shop effect the game.

why don’t you start to work for free for the rest of your life? …

Let me quote myself:
“So then they release an good quality expansion every year / year and a half. No cash-shop that effects the game-play and we pay them by buying the expansions.”

Why don’t you start to read the whole comment before placing reactions?…

Kjeldoran.3849:

Seriously guys, i don’t see any problems with this kind of gem shop’s item.
I only want to remember you that you are playing a P2B game, updated every 2 weeks (no matter how and if well or not) with the possibility to buy from gem store with in game money. Guys came on! Until these “advantages” (P2W ? really? you must play other MMO to learn what Pay To Win is) are “a bit more RESOURCES” (do you consider gatering as an advantage? it isn’t… not in gw2) it is perfectly fine for me because ArenaNet really deserve some money for their hard work, even if this isn’t their aim. The only thing we can ask more to ArenaNet is a little discount on gems with $/€ and in game golds this will make shop less “omg it is Pay To Win!!!” (kids…) and more “new stuff on the store… i can give them a try”.

That’s all for me.

How about not having the cash-shop effect the game.

Besides I am not waiting for 2 weekly updates with temporary achievements grinds and more of the same most of the time.

So then they release an good quality expansion every year / year and a half. No cash-shop that effects the game-play and we pay them by buying the expansions.

Rengaru.4730:

I invite everyone to visit my thread on Reddit I created on this issue, where I summarized the main issues with this Pick.

tbo I think the official forums are the main place to say something to the developers. I personally see Reddit more as something to just discuss things with the community.

Gene Archer.8560:

chemiclord.3978:

and they aren’t going to dignify the complaints with a response.

At this point, this is what hurts the most. Apparently telling the forums that the Seahawks won is more important than at least communicating with customers that have concerns, saying something, anything, in regards to something like this. Allaying fears, and the like.

But when all a company gives is silence?

Apparently Tier 3 Cultural Armor is important enough to get Anet’s attention, but the precedent of something like the pick is meaningless.

Reichbane.6297:

Why is this even an issue anyway?!

I’d explain, for the hundredth time, but you won’t get it. You’ll never get it.

I’ll try and put it in simple words for you, though, in the hopes that maybe you’ll get it this way: For all my complaints, I still see a lot of potential for this game. I wouldn’t criticize the watchwork pick if I didn’t think GW2 was capable of better. I don’t want to see a good game become another Maple Story or TOR.

Funny enough, the person who made Maple Story the Maple Story you are talking about is now working for Anet being the person that makes most of these decisions (or at least comes up with the idea.. I don’t know who has the finale word.

Reichbane.6297:

Second, taking into account that there is literally a way to exchange gold for gems, you are not gated from getting anything in the “cash shop” even if you are 12 and don’t have parents permission to use real money because you can use freaking gold. Why is this even an issue anyway?! Do you actually have nothing better to complain about?

Of course that does not change the fact that the cash-shop does effect the game-play in a negative way. But you can convert gold to gems if thats an excuse why not just start putting P2W items in there. You can buy it with gold anyway.

Just guessing here that P2W is the trigger for you but maybe it isn’t. Maybe you are the type of person that can’t handle money, so spend it on cash-shops and are even hoping for P2W items so you can buy them and show of how great you are.

No sorry the gold 2 gem excuse is not valid. It does not change the fact that the cash-shop effects the game in a negative way.
Before mainly for people who like the RP elements of the game like going into the world to collect mini’s and so on. Now it’s also hurting the people who care about this sort of stats and meanwhile it has hurt people who don’t like never ending grinds, temporary content and zerg fest / champ trains in PvE

Reichbane.6297:

I love all the arguing in here because it really shows the average intelligence level of the gamers here.

Ignoring the fact that you can literally buy one of those sprocket picks for less than 70 gold on any given day, you are given a node of sprockets in your home instance for daily use as a reward for an achievement. So I don’t care HOW you define “pay to win” this is not it. Like what the actual kitten?

So you buy, grind gold or grind achievements.

Funny thats exactly what I said how the cash-shop focus was destroying this game. Making everything a gold and achievements grind while trying to push people to pay money in the cash-shop.

Oow and I complained about the time-gated nature. Well the achievement to get that node it temporary available and the pick I am not sure about but is likely also temporary available.

Latinkuro.9420:

Meehael.8240:

So, would you pay $10 a month for the game if the Gem Store ceases to exist, no need to buy bag and bank slots, expand this, expand that. Pay for boosters of various kind. Buy unlimited mining picks. What not…
That would probably also include less time gating, maybe a bit higher drop rates… You name it!

In short, you get a full service for $10 a month. I’d say if the game’s good, I’d pay that money.

if you want a sub based gw2 just pretend it is and buy $10 worth of gems every month.
there problem solved, now stop ruining the game for the rest of us.

While I am not in favor of subs that would not solve the problem the cash-shop creates. It does not stop the gold-grind it does not allow you to go into the world to collect the mini’s or much of the skins and colors. It also does not make those items special because everybody can just buy them.

It would not solve anything if it comes to those elements.

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

p2w is here and always has been since the game launched. But now they are molding content around the cash store so you feel like you have to buy gems/gold to keep up. I am actually for having a cash store and don’t really care about the gem to gold transfers. I don’t care if someone wants to spend real money to buy a legendary, the option I actually think is good for the game since those with the money will buy it from an outside source anyways. That on its own I don’t think bothers most people. I think most would agree with me if its just a shortcut like when the game started then its not a big deal.

No I don’t agree.
First of all, it’s not new they they build stuff around the cash-shop or / and try to make you feel you have to spend cash.

People whole like collecting mini’s or other cosmetics in the world have a problem because they put most not in the open wold would you still like to have them then it’s grind gold grind gold grind achievements or buy them with money. Thats a push towards spending money. So that trying to get you to buy has been there for a long timer but it did become more and more indeed.

Secondly. Buy allowing the short cut you take away any feeling of accomplishment. It’s just an item that maybe somebody did a lot of work for but maybe he just both it. Same for the mini examples, even if they where all in the world but at the same time you could easily buy them with cash would take away much of the value of the item.

frans.8092:

Devata.6589:

… So when you are done with collecting them all then there are those 11 left in the store (maybe thats then the only push there is?).

For a collector it really doesn’t matter if it’s 1 or 11 mini that is missing, the collection remains incomplete and anyone collecting them is basically forced to spend real money.

Edit: $10 gets you 800 gems, for $10-15 p.month you can get a lot of RP items from the cash-shop. At least you have the choice.

Thats not completely true. For myself I said in the few games I did play for a while (including WoW) I said well the mini’s in the cash-shop and those they give as game-conventions do not count.

It’s a very small part that you can set yourself aside because they are only obtainable out of the game. Funny enough, GW2 did try to do this for you at launch. Meaning some they count as in-game while some they did not. Thats why some don’t count for the achievements and are in other tabs. The big difference is the amount. If you have a few of those mini’s in the cash-shop it’s easy to say “ok they do not count” but if there are only a few in-game that the hole idea of collecting them is ruined.

Problem is that there are pretty much non in-game but they simply count all the ones that are not account-bound and are in the cash-shop as in-game. But collecting them is not fun because it’s all a gold-grind. So even if you consider them as in-game (as I not really do because you can’t get them in the open world) the problem is that because of there implementation they are not included in a fun way. It;s all gold grind gold grind and gold-grind.

About buying them.. Well first of all I am not a fan of sub-based I prefer expansion-based. But like I said before (you might have missed that comment) what I consider fun is going into the world to hunt down my mini’s. That is my game-play. That is how I have fun, how I play an MMO. (not only that, but it’s part of it) So buying it is not a solution. Yes I have a collection but it does not feel nice because I did not do anything for it.

Besides if you where not able to play for 4 weeks in GW2 that might mean you missed out on a mini or a skin or something like that forever what makes it worse for 2 reasons. If you missed it you missed it but it also sort of ‘forces’ you to grind the achievements burning you out very fast.

Go in a party and then ask a party-member to target you.

I think you should not be able to see enemy name-tags in WvW because they stick out the side of a wall when somebody is behind it. However the whole anti-culling Anet made means in some cases you can only see the tag meaning they can’t take it out.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Anyone who wants something that’s in a cash shop in any game — and who prefers to “earn” it by playing versus by paying — is going to perceive that cash shop negatively. This goes for mounts in WoW or minis in GW2. I certainly have issues with GW2, but not with the way they’ve monetized their game.

Indeed and GW2 has lots and lots of items in the cash-shop and many of it only in the cash-shop so by default many more people are going to have a bigger problem with that cash-shop.

You are also forgetting one part. The part where the focus on the cash-shop changes part of the game-play itself
(usually to benefit the cash-shop sales, like how in GW2 they mainly use world-drop loot so gold because the most effective way to get items you want.. trying to get you to buy gold, but also the temporary nature of many things is a example of that in GW2).

People negatively effected by those game-play ‘changes’ also will have a more negative feeling about the game.. Not all maybe understanding where that game-play comes from.

Ashen.2907:

It would make it better than it is now, but not better than GW2’s shop because currently a subscriber is already paying for the development of those cash shop items. Asking him to pay a second time is not better than the GW2 approach IMO.

But it’s not about the subscription. I was now purely comparing the cash-shops.
It’s very nice that this cash-shop support this game if it wasn’t for the fact that for many people it sucks the fun out of the game the way is does so.

What you are basically are saying is. Well the GW2 cash-shop is never worse because you don’t need to pay a subscription because of it.
But that fact has not made the cash-shop better. The cash-shop is still bad. And the reason it is so bad is exactly because they use the cash-shop to generate income instead of another model like a sub (no fan of that) or expansions sale.

GW2 can not have a cash-shop like WoW if GW2 would not focus on subs or expansion sales to generate income because the WoW shop would not generate them enough income.

Ashen.2907:

Again that agree to disagree thing. Completely subjective. I don’t find the game to have been made worse by the cash shop. I know others that feel the same. It is unfortunate that some feel that the game has been lessened or even ruined for themselves by the existence of the cash shop, but the reality of the matter is that there would be people for whom the game would be ruined by the addition of a sub fee or the addition of paid expansions, etc.

Since the game was advertised and sold as having a cash shop, and lacking a sub fee…

Thats what I said.. depending on your game-play.

It was soled as B2P game. They never said it would focus on micro-transactions to generate income nor did Anet have a name as doing so with GW1, the opposite.

Having a cash-shop does not mean much yet. It could be a cash-shop like WoW has for example (but then they would not be able to run the game on that).

Yeah different models might have there own problems but in all honestly I think expansion-based models would effect the game the least for the most people.

The only people you are hitting are the people not able to buy expansions I think, then again they would likely even not be able to buy the first game so would also not have GW2 only F2P games (so compared to GW2 it’s almost nobody). Besides it’s reasonable to pay for a product.

Now in GW2 things have literally changed the game mechanics. I can not get mini’s or skin or colored dyes in a way I deem fun. I could pay and buy it but thats not fun for me.

Ashen.2907:

Not sure you can argue that we were comparing the cash shop, “by itself,” while also speaking about the cash shop’s impact on the game.

For me the sub fee does change something about the cash shop. It makes the cash shop look like a means of squeezing extra cash out of players who are already paying for the game’s future development as opposed to a means of allowing people, who are not required to fund ongoing development, to do so if they wish as we see in GW2.

I mean how the cash-shop itself effects the game. And that indeed is related to what model the company uses. I just mean to say that what you say there is not really a change to the game or the cash-shop. It’s more a feeling of justice is guess. I agree that it’s not ‘good’ from WoW to do that but it does not literally changes the cash-shop or how it effects the game.

About supporting the game I already said I really don’t see the cash-shop as a good way to fund ongoing development because yes you will but while steering it in a bad direction. Rather have nobody would buy cash-shop items so companies can’t earn money that way and they earn money in ways that don’t effect the game quality in a negative way as this does.

Ashen.2907:

I agree, to an extent. The two cash shops are different in that one’s existence allows people to continue playing a game that they potentially love without requiring additional payment that they may not be able to afford. The other asks people already paying for the development of the contents of the cash shop to pay for them again.

No the cash-shop does not make that difference. That is the sub-model vs no sub-model.
And in GW2’s case it’s indeed that they focus on a cash-shop to generate income so that cash-shop support a game without a sub (and for it to do that you get the stuff we have now and I dislike so much) but a focus on expansions would just as well be an alternative. So yes this cash-shop is one way to make that possible (if thats what you mean).

Ashen.2907:

I say, “to an extent,” because the differences exist on the micro level. On the macro level they are essentially identical. They produce revenue by enticing funds from those with the ability to pay more than the minimum requirement to play the game.

But the micro level does effect the way it works, how it effects the game and so on. What the whole discussion was about

Ashen.2907:

Well I would agree if the cash-shop and the game would be the same except for this change. But it’s completely different. The game is effected a lot.. WoW has many mini’s in the world with the exception of a few (including the 11 in the cash-shop) while GW2 has most in the cash-shop with the exception of a few in the world and a few behind temporary achievements.

That’s put everything in totally different perspectives. Yes the one fact that you can not get WoW cash-shop items with gold while the GW2 cash-shop items you can is better for the GW2 cash-shop then for WoW. That one fact is indeed better. But there are more things that just that one fact. GW2 has a lot of things in the cash-shop WoW almost nothing, GW2 puts a lot of things in there temporary as far as I know WoW has everything forever. GW2 makes the gold very important trying to get you to buy gold. WoW does not anything in the game trying to push you to buy it except for having those few items in the cash-shop. So it’s not so simple as looking as just one elements. The question is how it effects the game and that in total is effect more with GW2.

And the agree disagree. Again. The thing that was about was if different cash-shop effect games in different ways. Thats a fact, thats not a agree disagree thing. If it effects a game is a bad way is a agree disagree thing. I also said that if people don’t care about cosmetics or going into the world to collect them and so on then they might not dislike the GW2 cash-shop as it does not effect there personal game-play.

lordkrall.7241:

Factions was released in April, in-game store (which required you to pay real money) was released in July and Nightfall was released in October.
That would put the in-game store release about 3 months from Factions and about 3 months from Nightfall, which would mean it was just as close to Nightfall as it was to Factions.

And suddenly not counting Eye of the North is quite silly. If you are going to compare something you should compare it fully and not just ignore the bits that doesn’t support your view.

I did not ‘not count EofN’, I just pointed out that they then already focused on GW2 so they knew GW1 expansions where coming to an end and so they put in a cash shop to still support some income when GW1 expansions stopped to exist, or at least thats how I see it. But all this still does not change the fact that GW1’s main income was generated with expansions (that was there model) and GW2 uses mainly the cash-shop to generate the income so they changed there model from GW1 to GW2 and that was what my comment was about.

lordkrall.7241:

Devata.6589:

Uhhm they haven’t. For the most part GW1 focused there income on expansions. It was much later that the cash-shop was introduced and still had a much smaller impact on the game.

Interesting how your “much later” refers to something that was released just a few months after their 2nd campaign (Factions) and before both Nightfall and Eye of the North.

So clearly it wasn’t added “much later” than the expansions. In fact it was added before the majority of them.

If i’m correct it was released just before the Nightfall and Nightfall really was the last expansion. Eye of the North was more of a thing to link GW1 to GW2. The main focus had then already shifted to GW2 what explains why they added the cash-shop around Nightfall.

Still it did effect the game less then GW2’s cash-shop does simply because it did not have a focus on the cash-shop but on expansion, thats why they did not have a cash-shop in the first place and that was what I was talking about.

GW2 focus completely on the cash-shop and had it’s cash-shop from the beginning.

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

how bad WoW cash-shop is. That one for example is not even close to as bad as GW2’s cash-shop. But that makes sense because they don’t need to generate there money with it.

And this is why its a matter of agree/disagree not right/wrong. I find WoW’s cash shop to be much worse than GW2’s.

If it’s bad or not yes. Not if it effects the game in different ways.

btw please explain why you think WoW’s cash-shop is worse? Only thing I see worse in a way is that you can only buy from it with real cash. But the way it effects the game is nearly non-existing while in GW2 that is huge.

1) WoW requires that I pay a sub fee. If I am paying an ongoing sub fee to support servers and fund future development I consider charging extra for cash shop items to be worse than a game that does not charge a sub fee but has a cash shop. Note that this does not mean that I find the sub plus cash shop to be some great evil that must be destroyed or anything, just that I find it to be “worse” than no sub plus cash shop.

2) GW2 allows one to trade time for currency to purchase cash shop items. I rather like the fact that my purchase of gems is somehow making the game better for someone else. I like the win/win/win (gold buyer, gem buyer, ANet) aspect of gem/gold conversion. In WoW if some kid doesn’t have the cash to buy the mount that would totally make the character for him….tough luck.

1 I agree but we where comparing the cash-shops by itself. You now say “it’s worse because you are paying a sub” and while I agree that does not change anything about the cash-shop itself.

The whole point of the discussion I was having was that the fact that GW2 uses the cash-shop to generate income does make the shop different from WoW’s cash-shop where they generate money with subs.

2 (that are 2 in in one) So the fact that you can buy gems with gold. Yes it’s worse in WoW that you can’t do so, I agree. But at the same time it does not make it much better in GW2 because it has so many things and temporary that it’s almost impossible to get all the stuff buy transferring gems to gold and it really has turned the whole game into a gold-grind. So in a way it made it worse in GW2.

So if you take the WoW shop do not change anything ingame or in the cash-shop and then allow to transfer ingame gold to buy the cash-shop items it would make that shop better.

In GW2 however that by itself does not make the cash-shop better because of the way it works. It would make it even worse if you couldn’t but it by itself does not make it better then WoW’s cash-shop.

About that your purchase makes the game better. Sorry to say but no. It makes the game worse. If nobody would buy gems they would not focus on it to make money. It’s the fact that people buy gems that they can focus on the cash-shop and that has turned GW2 in a terrible big grind. So you help to destroy it (at least for some peoples game-play) not to make it better.

Yaj.5973:

NTY!

I like the current model. I don’t like the heavy focus on gemstore, but it’s ok. I don’t mind.

I loved guild wars 1 for its no subscription/ no b2win model. and blindly followed arenanet to guild wars2 cause of the belief they would still deliver with a similar model.. and they have.

Uhhm they haven’t. For the most part GW1 focused there income on expansions. It was much later that the cash-shop was introduced and still had a much smaller impact on the game.

GW2 focuses mainly on the cash-shop to generate income. So no they did not deliver with a similar model. I did go for GW2 expecting the GW1 system but sadly they came with this stuff.

Im Mudbone.1437:

frans.8092:

Spiuk.8421:

frans.8092:

Spiuk.8421:

Karizee.8076:

I don’t rent games.

Yes, you do.

No, you don’t. You can buy it, use it and then sell it. You can not do that when you rent.

Read the Guild Wars 2 EULA “again”, you rented an account until Anet says so.

And no explanations will be given upon termination.

Do read them, I am sure there’s something about applicable law in most, if not all EULA’s. I can sell my copy of a game no matter what you think about it. We have shops buying and reselling used games and software.

Just because there are shops that sell used video games doesn’t make it legal to do, the GW2 EULA says you can’t.

Depends on your country. The GW2 EULA is just that an EULA. But if there is compulsory law that says you are allowed to sell a copy thats the law. EULA is no law and will then not overrule that law.

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

how bad WoW cash-shop is. That one for example is not even close to as bad as GW2’s cash-shop. But that makes sense because they don’t need to generate there money with it.

And this is why its a matter of agree/disagree not right/wrong. I find WoW’s cash shop to be much worse than GW2’s.

If it’s bad or not yes. Not if it effects the game in different ways.

btw please explain why you think WoW’s cash-shop is worse? Only thing I see worse in a way is that you can only buy from it with real cash. But the way it effects the game is nearly non-existing while in GW2 that is huge.

WatchTheShow.7203:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

The mounts in the WoW cash shop are purely cosmetic and do not offer a speed, or any other, advantage. Yes, they also sell minis but you forget that players are able to collect hundreds of pets in the open world.

Yes, and you forget there are hundreds of minis you can collect in Guild Wars 2 without spending a dime of real money on them. Most minis are less than a gold each on the trading post. Some minis are from achievements and special events. Some minis drop from mobs (Southsun Cove minis).

Whenever it’s in the cash-shop but not account-bound you consider it in-game. But no you can’t collect them in-game. You collect gold in-game to then buy them

So getting the mini’s is all a gold grind (indeed there are a few exceptions) and that gold-grind is how it effects the game.

Some people like to go into the world and do a quest or a dungeon or farm a mob to get that drop.. the mini. That is there game-play. Thats how you can get hundreds of mini’s (ad other items) in WoW. In GW2 you can get idk 4/6 mini’s like that. Some others by grinding temporary availible achievements and then another few hindered by grinding gold.

You see the difference?

WatchTheShow.7203:

Again, I disagree, I think I hit the nail on the head. GW2’s cash shop is purely cosmetic. It is no different than WoW’s, except the fact WoW has mounts in its cash shop.

It’s not something to agree or disagree in. Games get effected in differed ways.. or not effected at all. Thats a fact, not something to agree or disagree on. You say you disagree well you don’t disagree you are just wrong.

And like I said before many times. It does not matter if it’s just cosmetic. If it’s your type of game-play to go into the world and collect those cosmetics then it very much effects the game for you.

WatchTheShow.7203:

They only affect the game with cute minis and pink heart shaped weapons that offer no increase in stats. Cmon, they’re not selling legendaries for cash here.

Finally we come to agreement!!!
It DOES effect the game!!
Thats what I said.
No maybe not with stats. Did I not said many times before it depends on your game-play.
Can you really not understand that some people are not just focused on some kitten stats?

That some people enjoy going into the world to work there way to heart shaped weapons. Just because they like that? you really can’t understand that for some people thats there game-play?
Well it is and so for the people with that game-play this cash-shop effects the game big-time.

WatchTheShow.7203:

Devata.6589:

I would much rather have them focusing on expansion to generate income. That could potentially solve many problems.. if they then indeed undo all the stuff with the cash-shop.

Wow has had many expansions and still has a cash shop. How will making an expansion eliminate the need for a cash shop? It clearly has not worked in other MMOs. Aion, Rift have also had expansions and they still have cash shops.

I said FOCUS on expansions to generate income. You know what GW2 is doing.. Focusing on micro-transactions to generate income. Yes WoW has expansions and a cash-shop. But WoW focuses on subs to generate income. There cash-shop does not have the focus it’s just an extra. Thats also why they don’t need to think of ways to get people to buy items from it (Like GW2 HAS to do) and thats why there cash-shop does effect the game way way way less then GW2’s cash-shop effects GW2.

WatchTheShow.7203:

Devata.6589:

Because while a focus on the cash-shop is a guarantee for a bad cash-shop and a game negatively effect by it. No focus on it is not a guarantee for that to be gone. Some of your examples where indeed P2P with a bad cash-shop. But not all.

Please try any MMO out there. I can guarantee their cash shops are far worse. I’ve played the worst MMOs out there and the best MMOs out there and I can tell you this cash shop has been the tamest one. Heck, even Assassin’s Creed and Red Dead Redemption, (WHICH ARE NOT MMOS!!!!!!!!) have had “expansions” and a “cash shop” with things like overpowered new weapons that break the game, new clothes and unlockable characters, upgrades not normally accessible through gameplay, etc.

Why do you split up the because. Thats why I have to explain everything twice. I did explain it in the last post but here you comment on the part before the explanation with a question that is already explained. And then you comment on the explanation.

Anyway, to answer you question:
I did play multiple MMORPG’s and I am not denying some are worse but not they are not all worse and while you try to tell me the whole time how bad WoW cash-shop is. That one for example is not even close to as bad as GW2’s cash-shop. But that makes sense because they don’t need to generate there money with it.

WatchTheShow.7203:

I’ve played many MMOs. I’ve been around the block a lot. I can assure you cash shops have many faces but their agendas are all the same.

Even if that was true it would still not make them the same.
But it’s not true. They are always there to generate money but they are not always there as main source of income.
And of course I was taking about how some cash-shops effect the games while some cash-shops don’t.

Devata.6589:

Some people say GW2 cash-shop isn’t one of the worse because it does not have P2W items but thats only true if your main game-play is combat.

WatchTheShow.7203:

Please give me an example of what you think is pay to win in GW2’s cash shop. I don’t see any pay to win items. Maple Story’s cash shop has an item you can buy for $30 that you can use to automatically make yourself level 100. I don’t see anything in GW2’s cash shop that makes you instantly level 80. Heck, I don’t even see anything that makes you instantly level $20. There are games where the fastest mounts are available in the cash shop for $40 (I’m looking at you Neverwinter and Dragon’s Prophet) which clearly gives an advantage over players who do not want to spend $40 on a mount. So what exactly are you seeing in GW2’s shop that is so pay to win?

I could name you a few items but please read again. I did not say it was P2W. I said some people say GW2’s cash-shop is not bad because it’s not P2W. I say, no it can still be bad depending on your game-play. If you like to go into the world to collect mini’s and skins then GW2’s cash-shop is till bad, even if it’s not P2W.

WatchTheShow.7203:

Devata.6589:

For other people (that like the more RP elements like collecting mini’s) GW2’s cash-shop and how they influence the game to get you to buy items makes it among the worst cash-shops there are.

Ok, we’ve already established WoW’s cash shop has exclusive minis inside of it, yet their cash shop is fine according to you. Guild Wars 2 has a few exclusive minis via cash shop, and that makes it “…among the worst cash shops there are”.

You see, here I even went into the details of saying why it was bad for some players.. So makes no sense to ask for P2W items.

WoW has 11 exclusive minis. GW2 has most mini’s in the cash-shop meaning you can’t get those in any other way then grinding gold (or buying with cash). Thats how it influences the game for people that like to go into the world and collect them (not possible in GW2, only way to get that is by grinding gold) In WoW most mini’s are available in the game-world itself so you can go into the game to hunt for your mini’s.

And just for the record. I use mini’s as an example. On that place you can put many cosmetic / horizontal progression type of items, like skins, dye colors and so on.

WatchTheShow.7203:

Oh come now. Have you played any other MMO out there in the past 10 years? MapleStory, Mabinogi, Vindictus, Diablo III, WoW, Aion, Tera, Rift, Guild Wars 1, only to name a few all have gold grinds. Inflation is rampant in at least 4 of those games. Where it costs 1,300,000,000,000 (yeah you read that correctly) mesos to buy a level 100 weapon in Maple Story, when 5 years ago that same item only costed 1,000,000 mesos. Every MMO is a gold grind. Every. MMO. Is. A. Gold. Grind. Period.

Weren’t we talking about how a focus on micro-transaction influenced the game? Yes we where so why you you use so many F2P games (games that have a focus on micro-transactions to generate income) as examples? Yeah they are likely to indeed do. Especially if you can buy the money with cash. Thats how it works. They make a gold-grind ingame and then sell gold.
Well I will just ignore those examples and go back to the WoW example (luckily you also listed that here)

If I want a specific mini in WoW there is almost all of the time a specific way to get that mini. I have the option to grind for gold and get it but I can also just go for the mini itself. A quest, a dungeon-drop a mob-drop. Now let do the same in GW2. With the exception of 4 / 6 mini’s? The only way to get them is to grind gold and get them.

WatchTheShow.7203:

These things are also in GW2’s cash shop.

I first though this was some deliberate tactic of you to try and debunk my comment by simply not going into what my comment was about but by going into specific items but you really don’t get it do you?
It’s not about specific items it’s about how the cash-shop effects the game. In WoW the 11 mini’s, 7 mounts and 3 helmets effect the game only a little bid while in GW2 the hole way it’s set up and how game-play is build around the way that they try to get you to buy items hurts the game.

These things don’t effect the game. Does not matter if they are in or are not in the cash-shop. They don’t hurt the game. Thats why I said that.

WatchTheShow.7203:

It is still a cash shop, and you still have to buy a name changer which could cost anywhere between $10, and $25. The point of this thread is, pay to play should not, and does not, have a cash shop of any kind at all. This clearly is a good example. Shouldn’t this service be free since everyone is a paying subscriber? Yes, it should shouldn’kitten So why a cash shop at all?

It’s about how it effects the game! Not if they have a cash-shop or not. The question is how it effects the game!! And if they need to earn there money with the cash-shop they need to get people to buy from it. Thats why it’s more likely to effect the game. As we see in GW2 compaired to for example WoW.

WatchTheShow.7203:

I think I was dead on.

I think you don’t get it.. or don’t want to get it.

WatchTheShow.7203:

All cash shops are the same, you can pay for something in game with real money. This is why a cash shop exists, to generate income. Why should every pay to play MMO have one if you are paying monthly? Because they can generate even more money with a forced and unnecessary subscription.

You see you don’t get it. No they are not all the same. Yes they all generate income for the company. Thats something they have in common. There are many birds that can fly. That itself does not make all those birds the same.

The difference is that in GW2 there main income comes from the game while with expansion-based or sub-based models it’s just an extra income, so no need to try and push people to the cash-shop.. like in GW2 and many F2P games.

Devata.6589:

Not saying that there might be P2P games that still had a bad cash-shop and I also agree that the mini’s, mounts and helms should not be in the cash-shop of WoW but overall it’s still very limited.

WatchTheShow.7203:

Ok, first, every P2P game I can think of has a cash shop. If you know of any at all that has no cash shop, please mention it, because I frankly don’t know of any. You just said earlier that WoW’s cash shop wasn’t so bad because it was mostly cosmetic items, but then you list all the cosmetic items as being bad and you think shouldn’t be in there!

I said a BAD cash-shop as in “in influence the game”. But then again, that was the part you did not get. So it’s not about a P2P game that does not have a cash-shop but about a cash-shop that does not influence the game in a bad way and the cash-shop we used as comparison (WoW) does not influence the game a lot. Only very slightly buy requiring you to buy 11 minis, 7 mounts or 3 helmets if you want to have the full collection of any of those. Thats literally as far as the influence go so thats extremely limited.

“You just said earlier that WoW’s cash shop wasn’t so bad because it was mostly cosmetic items”
What? I never said that.

WatchTheShow.7203:

Ok, so far GW2’s cash shop is exactly like WoW’s cash shop. Most of the minis are available in game, BLTC, special events, meta achievements, or convert gold to gems. Only a few minis are available in the cash shop (holiday minis). What about RP elements in WoW where people collect all the minis? I’m sure they love the fact they have to pay $ for those 11 minis in the cash shop /sarcasm. At least in GW2, they can convert gold to gems, unlike WoW. This automatically makes GW2’s cash shop substantially better to WoW’s.

Haha you are really gonna try this? No most are NOT in game. Most are in the cash-shop. And yes you can get them by grinding gold ingame. Wasn’t that what I was complaining about as well? How it was all a gold grind in stead that you could play the game to work for the mini you want. I like to hunt down the items. Thats my game-play not grinding gold. So most of the mini’s require a gold-grind to buy them from the cash-shop or a achievement grind thats time-limited. Get it now or never. And two weeks later again and then again and again and so on. Still they are semi-ingame as it’s an achievement not as a drop. But I could live with that if it wasn’t temporary. But it is.

No they will not like that but they can easely exclude 11 mini’s from the collection and no you can’t get all mini’s in GW2 without paying.. well not if you have a life. There is so much gold-grind and much is temporary that you will never be able to grind all that gold all the time.

And I already said it was not good that it was like that in WoW. That does not make this better in GW2.

WatchTheShow.7203:

Why does WoW have any mounts in the cash shop? I’m sure these mounts are better than all the lvl 30 starter mounts in game. Anyone who pays for these mounts will have a better mount at an earlier level than those who do not. Guild wars 2 has one item that some consider a “mount”, the broom. It can only be worn as town clothes, and offers no speed boost. I think that is much more fair than WoW’s. Again, it looks like GW2’s “cash shop” is significantly better.

WoW should not have it. But that still does not make up for the way GW2 is totally influenced the game-play making everything a gold grind and having many things temporary.

No it does not make GW2’s shop better because WoW’s shop does not effect the game-play as much. In GW2 it effects it big-time (gold grind, temporary stuff) while in WoW the worse is missing out on 11 mini’s, 7 mounts and 3 helms. And no, the mounts in the the shop are not better then the one ingame.. yeah maybe then the lvl 30 ingame but then you are likely not able to use it on a lvl 30 character.

The comparison to broom is a little silly because I am not comparing specific items but comparing how the cash-shop effects the game / game-play. So far thats extremely limited in WoW while in GW2 it effects it a lot.

It’s funny what you try to do here. Oow and about a mount at lvl 30 and the broom if you really want to make that comparison. While in WoW you might have the advantage of not having to get a mount ingame in GW2 you can buy gold to buy items you want ingame. Giving you the benefit of having those stats without having to get it ingame.

WatchTheShow.7203:

So does Guild Wars 2. GW2’s cash shop offers name changes, full makeover, character transfers, and cosmetic armors. No race/profession changers at this time. So in this respect, WoW cash shop and GW2 cash shop are exactly alike.

Lol no now finally there is a point where GW2’s shop is better with one point (but like said, the problem is how the cash-shop in general effects the game-play not about specific items what you are trying to make of it) and you say they are similar. Those thinks don’t hurt the game-play so those things are fine to have in a cash-shop. Benefit of GW2 is that you can get them with ingame gold.

WatchTheShow.7203:

There is also no push to buy ANY of the GW2 items in the cash shop.

Yes there is. Getting many of those items requires a endless gold-grind what pusses you to simply buying gold with gems and then there are the many items that are only available temporary pushing you to get it now or lose out on it forever. Not to forget that they make the gold-grind for those items almost impossible.

So it turns the game in a gold-grind and pushes you to buy items and gold.

And that is what that WoW-store is not doing.

Ashen.2907:

Seera.5916:

I’d rather have acquisition like it is now but unlocking them is account bound.

As would I.

I just wanted to point out that the system that existed prior to the current one was actually worse. What we have now is an improvement, changed because of beta player feedback, than what was originally designed.

However I was not comparing it to the original dye system.

“During the first beta weekend event, players were required to obtain Colorful Dye Seeds that required cultivation back in the “Home” area. Cultivation took either 24 real world hours, or the purchase of an item from the Gem shop. Once cultivated it would drop a soulbound, unidentified dye; that dye would unlock a new color. This system has since been replaced.”

I said they should drop as colors in specific places so you can go on a hunt to get the color you want.

Ashen.2907:

Seera.5916:

So you actually like having to get your favorite dye numerous times if you have alts and want to use it on them?

Having to spend time to “grow” each dye that I might want individually, one at a time, could mean spending months to be able to properly outfit a single character. Having those dyes then be available for alts is only beneficial if I intend to use the same exact colors on multiple characters.

Why would I be interested in pursuing color options for multiple characters if the system was so completely obnoxious for one ?

Seera.5916:

Once you unlock a dye on one character, it’s only unlocked for that character. You have to get lucky or buy the dye again to unlock it on another character and again and again and again.

Spending a few copper or silver, perhaps even a gold, to buy colors for an alt is much less restrictive than having to spend days.

The previous iteration of the dye system time gated dye access to the point that the current system, with character bound dyes, is much more alt friendly than the old system despite it being account bound.

Yeah I think it should be account-bound.

But the comment that you don’t like to grow one dye at a time is strange because thats is also the case in the current system. Only difference is if you can actively go for one specific color or not.

Also you say “Having those dyes then be available for alts is only beneficial if I intend to use the same exact colors on multiple characters.” When you hunt for a specific color you do get the dye colors you want (while maybe also some that you have no interest in).

Now you might get colors (multiple, the same ones) that you are not interested in at all and not get the ones you do want.

“Spending a few copper or silver, perhaps even a gold, to buy colors for an alt is much less restrictive than having to spend days. ”

This statement is also strange. The amount of gold you pay for a color depends also on the drop-rate (or / and popularity). So some require you to grind for gold longer and other require you to need less gold-grind.

That would not be different for when they are in the game. Some colors might be very easy to get other very hard. Difference is that in GW2 a lot of things are that boring gold grind while else you could go for the item you want. Thats just more fun imho and even if it isn’t more fun in your opinion there would still be the option to buy it from the TP after you would grind gold. That option would not go away.

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

It has taken a lot of items out of the game.. You can’t go on the hunt for mini’s, dyes (specific colors) skins and so on.

Which specific dye colors, skins, and minis were in the game world but were removed to be put into the gem shop ?

Do you have anything at all to show that they would have existed at all if not tied directly to a source of funding such as the gem shop ?

I said “It” so this cash-shop focus, has taken a lot out of the game. Because they are in the cash-shop and not in the game (where they else would have been) because of that cash-shop focus. So they have been taken out since day one.

No I do not have anything at all to show that they would have been in the game else-wise.

Ever heard of common sense? It are the kind of items that are in pretty much all MMORPG games. So it makes sense they would have been in GW2 as well.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Devata.6589:

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

Neural.1824:

~

I was going to post something but this blows anything I could write up out of the water.

Yeah that post from Neural and Dark Catalyst reaction on it pretty much sums it up all.

It’s why I dislike the focus on micro-transactions so much. I also made a thread about the focus on micro-transactions to basically say exactly this.

But some people seem to not want to see it.

What is really mind-numbing is when you go to the threads where they ask “how much money did you spend on gems”. People are there very proudly telling the spend hundred of dollars on gems.

Like it gives them any status (this is also what the prices are all about Anet gives to gem-buyers. Make them feel special) and how they are helping to support there game.

While they fail to see they they simply can’t handle money, monetize people are just using those sort of people (as milk cows) to get money out of there wallets and in fact they are not helping to support the game but helping to destroy it. Because without such people the game would not have been such a gem-store focus (as it would not work) what only could benefit the games quality.

Yeah. GW2 was my first, and last, “free to play” game because the cash shop left such a bad taste in my mouth. It’s why I prefer to just pay a sub and have access to everything instead if getting nickel and dimed on things like bag slots and bank tabs.

Honestly, I should’ve followed my intuition when I first started. I remember feeling disappointed when I found out you had to buy bag slots and with the way items pile up I quickly found myself hurting for space. I gave it a shot anyway, because hey! No sub.

Yeah well I have never been a fan of F2P but I was interested in GW2 because they put it on the market as B2P and ArenaNet had a very good name for using a expansion-based model with GW2.

I’m not a big fan of sub because it puts a timer above your head. I did try it for a while but then I payed for a month and then did not feel like playing after a week. Then 3 weeks later I did feel like playing again but the month was over.

So I’m a very bid advocate for expansion-based models, no timer above your head and the ability to deliver a high-quality product like sub-games can as well. Thats what pulled me to GW2 but then it turned out to be just a micro-transaction based game like the many F2P games out there.

Lets hope that GW2 changes it’s way or else maybe another good MMORPG game will use the expansion-based game. However I am not somebody who switches form the one to the other MMO all the time.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

I love what they did with the Marionette: give key-fragments for participating in the event and combine those to keys which open various chests. It’s really fun to open those chests again and again and again, even though it’s mostly greens.

What I’d like to see as a further evolution of this: combine all the 5 keys to open a new chest which has at least a guaranteed rare and a good shot at (some) exotics (+ a really good chance for something non-combaty – like the Mini)

This is exactly what I consider boring. It’ early the same as grinding gold and then buying it (or in your example buying the change to get it). It’s a currency grind and the key-fragments are the currency.

It’s not bad to have something like that as an ‘extra’ (without the change part) so you know that when you do it you will always get rewarded for it (like the tokens in dungeons) but at the same time there should also be some unique drops that are not related to a currency.

But then again, I don’t like how the world-bosses work. To much depended on people you don’t know and the kitten timer of 2 hours. Better make it a instance raid dungeon.
That makes it more tactical organized play in stead of luck to be with a good group of players. But of-course the marionette would also drops those things when just participating so thats a little different.

laokoko.7403:

You dont’ need to grind anything. Just play the game normally. Most people can make 10 gold easily by just playing the game.

In 2 month you can have your precursor by just playing the game.

The way I like to play is to hunt for the item. Thats how I play a game. Not but just doing some stuff to get gold (also knows as grinding) to then buy the item I want. Thats not fun. Or at least not for the people who have a similar game-play style as me and complain about the grind..

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Trying to analyse the topic:

Does GW2 have a worse RNG than it’s competitors? Let’s take a look at one of the larger games out there: WoW

Best in slot items droprate compared to Ascended Gear (BIS in GW2):
Here is a list of drops from one of the raid bosses in WoW: http://de.wowhead.com/npc=71865#drops:0+17-3-18+1

items of itemlevel 572-574 have a droprate from 0.06 – 0.17 (which means 1-3 out of 1754)

There was a post on Reddit from a guy who opened Champion Lootboxes (which should contain Ascended Gear Boxex), see:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1tphls/analysis_opened_646_gilded_coffers_and_605_gilded/

he opened 646+605= 1251 boxes and got 1 Ascended Gear Box

If you ask me…

• GW2 shows a better droprate
• in WoW you can get BIS only from Raidbosses, in GW2 you can craft it by yourself, no specific content required. Fractals/Dungeons not required.

The problem imho isn’t the droprate but the quantity of items that can drop. Looking at the WoW boss in the link above, he can drop 178 different items, most of it quite good (in GW2 terms: specific exotic stuff). A lot of good items have a droprate above 5% up to 20%… in GW2 on the other hand exotics are still really rare.

PS: what adds to this is the “seen droprate”. What I’m trying to say: In WoW you see the drops of 25 people, then you roll the dice for these items. You might not get a lot, but it looks like you have a quit good chance of getting something.

You seem to forget a few huge things in your comparison.

1 In WoW you can farm that one boss to get the item you want what by itself is more fun because you are more directly working for an item. (Most important of it all if you ask me)

2 In WoW you can farm that one boss to get the item you want meaning when it drops you get the item you want. In GW2 yes you did get a Ascended Gear Box, very nice.. if it does have the stats you need.
There are 18 possible stats so 1 Ascended Gear box drops from 1251 boxes but the change you have the stat you want is then 1/18 so to be sure you get the drop you want it’s not 1 / 1251 but 1 / 22518
Still I don’t think the drop-rate itself is the most important thing, it’s the form of grind. In GW2 much is gold-grind in WoW it’s more farming for a specific item.

3 This fact is hard to use as a comparison because we don’t know the exact drop-rate from GW2 but if you have a drop-rate of 0,06 that would be 1 in 1754 but that means that when you are playing that at 877 runs you already had 50% change it dropped and after that the change it drops becomes bigger then that it does not drop. So to get an idea of when it drops you should always half the number you get when knowing the drop-rate.

4 In WoW that might be the case for the BiS items but in GW2 the problem is that everything is a grind. Not only the BIS but everything, and not just a grind but a gold-grind. So a very boring one.

chemiclord.3978:

ronpierce.2760:

I can help answer this in my POV, while, of course I’d love to see his as well. My reason is that ANet had a wonderful IDEA and pitch that they gave. It sounded great, but they failed on execution. Being one of the bigger MMO creators, it gives room for hope that things can be changed with enough feedback. Especially feedback with substance/direction. I love GW2 combat because it loosens up the tab target MMO standard, weapon swings cleave like you’d expect a two handed sword to do, etc. There are ways to fix the issues in the game to make it a great game. It ultimately comes down to “will they do it?” I’d say none of the other current MMOs would do me better because either they have similar issues, worse issues or in the case of WoW, I’ve just played it out over the last 8 years. I needed a change in scenery, plus a break for the traditional tab targeting. GW2 has hope, the developers just need to act on it if they want to salvage it.

Okay, so in other words, you DON’T think Arena.net is conspiring to cheat you or bleed your wallet dry. You just think they’ve “lost their way” I guess is one way to put it. Good on ya; I find I disagree with a lot of the things you want (based on previous things I’ve seen in other threads), but that’s fine.

But that doesn’t really answer my question. He seems to believe that Arena.net is simply out to fleece their customers before the inevitable collapse once other titles launch. Personally, the Arena.net that he paints… there’s no redeeming them. There’s no bringing that company back. That company would be rotten to the core.

In other words, the Arena.net Neural sees… there’s no hope. So why is he still here?

You are not only dealing with ArenaNet. You are just as well dealing with Ncsoft. What I would love to know is who makes what decisions.

I know who said “dyes should be soul-bound” but who says “we work with world / general loot drops in stead of localized drops”, we put 99% of all mini’s in the cash-shop, for the dyes we do not put colors as drops bun unidentified dyes, we make items in the game and cash-shop temporary available, we make farming impossible, we focus on the cash-shop to generate money, not on expansions (what is the core for the other decisions).

These sorts of decisions, who makes them? Thats are the decisions that are so bad but we don’t know if it’s Anet or just a few people inside Anet of Ncsoft or maybe some other stakeholders? Without knowing thats it’s hard to say if it can change. But lets hope it can. Else it would be a waste of a game that had good potential.

Neural.1824:

Suddenflame.2601:

DR was introduced due to bots. I was playing back then. Not sure if you were, but there was a lot of bots back then. DR if your being hit with it you really need to rethink what your doing cause it doesn’t kick in for hours of you playing in place without logging out and switching zones. Also, you aware there is more and more games having RNG boxes. WoW from what i am aware is going to add them if they have not already. So do not think this is just Anet. It is only pressure if you allow it to be. If you allow it pressure you should go get checked out by a councilor or a therapist for an addiction issue.

As a few people pointed out they do not feel pressured but if you do then you have a problem that should seek professional help with it. I have missed dailies, LS, and other things without much of a care as I do not feel pressured to keep playing. If I was paying a subscription fee i would feel pressured to play to get my moneys worth. Since GW2 does not have you should not feel pressured.

I’m not really in the mood to answer this but I will try to do so clearly. First, it’s clear that you are the type who will never be shown any other way than what you think is true. That much is obvious from your comments on this and other threads where you are given plenty of evidence contrary to your statements but you continually argue semantics.

Thats not completely true. He already agreed in this topic that indeed there is a lot of grind while his OP was about exactly the opposite.

However it’s now about if grind is worse then the possible ‘fragmentation’ expansions would give and that grind has been there since the beginning (still fail to see how that makes it better). But he did agree that indeed there was a lot of grind. So I can’t say he does not want to see anything else that is original idea.

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

Neural.1824:

The RNG and grind in GW2 is mind-numbing. NCSoft and Anet are obsessed with squeezing as much money out of the playerbase as possible in the shortest amount of time. The end result is a game that comes across as kitten in the “finished product” department, and a loot system and economy built soley on the push to get players to open their wallets. For the majority who fall on the “lose” side of the kitten RNG, everything is a grind. Want T6 mats? Grind gold to buy them. Want a special skin? Grind gold to buy it. Want a mini? Grind gold to buy it.
The entire game is focused on forcing people to grind for gold, and it is deliberately designed that way. They are creating a high pressure environment where the only thing that matters is gold, because psychologically it has been proven to bring in more real cash.
You know why we don’t have a large number of emotes/animations? Because they were seen as superfelous to the end goal of making money. They were additional development work that was seen as “no cash flow”. Same applies for fixing a number of QoL issues. The Monetization Lords see it as a waste of time because players aren’t leaving the game over it and it doesn’t bring in more money.
By design everything is forced into being an issue of gold. Diminishing Returns is not about bots, it never has been. It’s about limiting loot drops so that players need more gold to buy the items they want, because needing more gold is another pressure to open the wallet and just buy gold.
Then there’s the “urgency” pressure. They introduce gem and gold valued items that are only a round for a short period of time. “buy now, or miss out!”. People feel pressure to open their wallet to get that item they want. RNG plays a massive part in this. “Buy black lion keys with gems and you could get a Black Lion Claim Ticket!”. Anet is actively, and knowingly, feeding off of people who have money and don’t know they have a gambling addiction. It’s worse than gambling, in fact, because all the items are virtual and have no real value. So people are not even gambling real money to get a possible cash prize.
Every aspect of it works together to apply as much pressure as possible on the players to pay real money.

Yes, Anet needs to make money to stay in business. What they are doing however is abuse. It needs to stop.

I was going to post something but this blows anything I could write up out of the water.

Yeah that post from Neural and Dark Catalyst reaction on it pretty much sums it up all.

It’s why I dislike the focus on micro-transactions so much. I also made a thread about the focus on micro-transactions to basically say exactly this.

But some people seem to not want to see it.

What is really mind-numbing is when you go to the threads where they ask “how much money did you spend on gems”. People are there very proudly telling they spend hundred of dollars on gems.

Like it gives them any status (this is also what the prices are all about Anet gives to gem-buyers. Make them feel special) and how they are helping to support the game.

While they fail to see that they simply can’t handle money, monetize people are just using those sort of people (as milk cows) to get money out of there wallets and in fact they are not helping to support the game but helping to destroy it. Because without such people the game would not have such a gem-store focus (as it would not work) what only could benefit the games quality.

Suddenflame.2601:

Devata.6589:

Suddenflame.2601:

Devata.6589:

@Suddenflame
Anyway you already agreed that indeed it is a heavy grind and thats what this topic was about was it not?

The reason for it (cash-shop / monetizing) and that maybe not all elements of the game are as grindy does not really matter for this topic.

There is many grind, you agree but don’t have the problem so much for the type of game-play you like.

My gameplay style is hard to put a grind into it. There is a grind for money not for the gem shop but for cosmetic items in the TP sure. As many of them can only be gained through the TP (since they been removed from the gem store) or they are RNG in the gem store. This however is not the issue since this has been known since before the start. The cash-shop has nothing to do with the current “grind” as the recipes for Legendaries has not changed since launch.

edit: Its only become an issue on the forums since the launch of ascended weapons and armour.

There have been talk about this for a much longer time. Pretty much right after the first people hit 80. When they added ascended weapons the threads about vertical progression started. Thats something else.. well it also requires a grind but it where other threads.

And that the grind-problem (or as you say it “other grind” because now you only referring to ascended grind) was here since the beta does not make it any better.

Threads about vertical progression existed back in November 2012 when they first announced ascended. The grind-problem as you call it did not exist in beta for the majority of the population since majority of people did not care. The majority of the forums here do not care about cosmetic grind but are complaints about legendaries and ascended. This is why I am addressing this.

Your complaint however and solution requires a radical unnecessary change that you should have looked up prior to even buying the game.

Maybe not in the beta. It takes a little bid of gaming before you start to notice that. Like some people also pointed out in this thread.

Plus they never said they would have had a focus on the cash-shop to generate income. So there was nothing to look up prior to buying. All you could work with was what they did with GW1 and there statement of releasing it as a B2P game. What is more in the line with expansion-based then with micro-transaction focus (something you expect from F2P more).

Suddenflame.2601:

Devata.6589:

Suddenflame.2601:

Devata.6589:

~

~

Like I said. The problem of fragmenting the community is not as big of a problem as you make it seem. Besides most people will buy the expansions anyway.

The current system that is sucking the fun out of the game is a much bigger problem then the limited fragmentation of the community a expansion-based model would give. So that easy outweighs it.

But again. The thread was not about if expansions would have another problem then the cash-shop. It was about the grind and that we concluded is here a lot.

“This is no different from any other video game that contains micro-transactions.” Thats why I never play F2P games.. or well I try it and then stop again.

“Unlike other games however GW2 allows you to use in-game gold conversion to get those items as well.” So grind gold or buy.. wait wasn’t that the point I was making?

“Its your choice on how you want to go about getting those cosmetic/utility items.”
Grind or buy. I want to have fun getting them ingame. That is my game-play.

“You can also get most of those items including minis by using Black Lion Chests with keys (which can be found mind you I think they should really up their drop rate a bit). "
Yeah I know the best way to get it and then it’s about 1 key every 25 min. And then you don’t get a ticket there is a very very very slim change you get a ticket and a +- 20% change you get a ticket part, you then only need 10 of them.
Nice so you found another way to grind them.. by grinding keys.

“Not many games offer this many ways to get items in the store.”
It’s all grind. I want to play the game. Not try and get something from there store. It should be in the game.

“From what I been reading is you want to change the entire gem store removing its profitability, fragmenting the community with expansions and changing its economic model all of which were in place long before launch and was fully known, all for minis and cosmetic/utility items to be in the game for your play style.”
Well fragmentation is not as bad as you make it and for the rest mostly yes. Not so much “for the cosmetics” but “to make the game fun and horner the name Anet had from GW1”. Also it’s not just for my play-style but for many.. And you know it are many because you created this thread to talk about all the complains about grinding.

The issue of fragmentation is a large part and #1 reason why Anet is questioning if they should even make an expansion. They learned from GW1 the fragmentation of the community with many different campaigns and expansions is a bad thing. it also conflicts with LS as if the LS takes place in an expansion area but some people can’t play there since they do not have that expansion.

My friends and I went through community fragmentation GW1 where I had all the expansions but my friends did not. So no Anet would not want to fragment the community again.

It doesn’t make sense to perform such a drastic change that your asking for especially when it was known before people even bought the game.

Indeed the expansion in GW1 thats what I said before. It has never been seen as a problem by any other MMORPG but it was a problem in GW1. The big difference there an expansion was a separate game. Not one world where an expansion would add many new items, a new race and a few new maps and a new continent to the world. It was pretty much a second game.

And no it was not known that GW2 would focus on the cash-shop so heavy. It was sold as an B2P game and Anet had a good name with there expansion-based model. It was know there was a cash-shop but thats about it.

So with all the knowledge you had you would expect they would once again focus on expansion and just having a cash-shop as extra. But they didn’t they heavily focused on the cash-shop pretty much making it like any F2P game.

The drastic change would makes a lot of sense because it is the only way to make the game what it should have been in the first place. A game without this much of grind, lots of fun and also good for casual gamers.

Suddenflame.2601:

Devata.6589:

@Suddenflame
Anyway you already agreed that indeed it is a heavy grind and thats what this topic was about was it not?

The reason for it (cash-shop / monetizing) and that maybe not all elements of the game are as grindy does not really matter for this topic.

There is many grind, you agree but don’t have the problem so much for the type of game-play you like.

My gameplay style is hard to put a grind into it. There is a grind for money not for the gem shop but for cosmetic items in the TP sure. As many of them can only be gained through the TP (since they been removed from the gem store) or they are RNG in the gem store. This however is not the issue since this has been known since before the start. The cash-shop has nothing to do with the current “grind” as the recipes for Legendaries has not changed since launch.

edit: Its only become an issue on the forums since the launch of ascended weapons and armour.

There have been talk about this for a much longer time. Pretty much right after the first people hit 80. When they added ascended weapons the threads about vertical progression started. Thats something else.. well it also requires a grind but it where other threads.

And that the grind-problem (or as you say it “other grind” because now you only referring to ascended grind) was here since the beta does not make it any better.

Suddenflame.2601:

Devata.6589:

~

I can’t think of any type of expansion that wouldn’t fragment the community which is what they are against and have been for a long time. Living Story exists as a compromise as they want everyone to play with their friends anywhere (as long as they are at appropriate level). Plus the minis were known since beta that they were going to be in the gem store along with some of the fancier armour sets.

Like i said before if you can find a way to generate revenue that does not involve fragmenting the community and does not need the gem store I bet Anet would be glad to hear you out. So far you been focusing on the demand for an expansion.

As well only cosmetic and utility items exist in the gem store. It does not force people to use it once you desire an item from it. This is no different from any other video game that contains micro-transactions. Unlike other games however GW2 allows you to use in-game gold conversion to get those items as well. Its your choice on how you want to go about getting those cosmetic/utility items. You can also get most of those items including minis by using Black Lion Chests with keys (which can be found mind you I think they should really up their drop rate a bit).

Not many games offer this many ways to get items in the store.

From what I been reading is you want to change the entire gem store removing its profitability, fragmenting the community with expansions and changing its economic model all of which were in place long before launch and was fully known, all for minis and cosmetic/utility items to be in the game for your play style.

Like I said. The problem of fragmenting the community is not as big of a problem as you make it seem. Besides most people will buy the expansions anyway.

The current system that is sucking the fun out of the game is a much bigger problem then the limited fragmentation of the community a expansion-based model would give. So that easy outweighs it.

But again. The thread was not about if expansions would have another problem then the cash-shop. It was about the grind and that we concluded is here a lot.

“This is no different from any other video game that contains micro-transactions.” Thats why I never play F2P games.. or well I try it and then stop again.

“Unlike other games however GW2 allows you to use in-game gold conversion to get those items as well.” So grind gold or buy.. wait wasn’t that the point I was making?

“Its your choice on how you want to go about getting those cosmetic/utility items.”
Grind or buy. I want to have fun getting them ingame. That is my game-play.

“You can also get most of those items including minis by using Black Lion Chests with keys (which can be found mind you I think they should really up their drop rate a bit). "
Yeah I know the best way to get it and then it’s about 1 key every 25 min. And then you don’t get a ticket there is a very very very slim change you get a ticket and a +- 20% change you get a ticket part, you then only need 10 of them.
Nice so you found another way to grind them.. by grinding keys.

“Not many games offer this many ways to get items in the store.”
It’s all grind. I want to play the game. Not try and get something from there store. It should be in the game.

“From what I been reading is you want to change the entire gem store removing its profitability, fragmenting the community with expansions and changing its economic model all of which were in place long before launch and was fully known, all for minis and cosmetic/utility items to be in the game for your play style.”
Well fragmentation is not as bad as you make it and for the rest mostly yes. Not so much “for the cosmetics” but “to make the game fun and horner the name Anet had from GW1”. Also it’s not just for my play-style but for many.. And you know it are many because you created this thread to talk about all the complains about grinding.

@Suddenflame
Anyway you already agreed that indeed it is a heavy grind and thats what this topic was about was it not?

The reason for it (cash-shop / monetizing) and that maybe not all elements of the game are as grindy does not really matter for this topic.

There is many grind, you agree but don’t have the problem so much for the type of game-play you like.

Suddenflame.2601:

Devata.6589:

I know I referred to them before. There are the mini’s you can get with grinding temporary achievements. Not really in the world but half you could say. Wasn’t it for the fact that it are temporary achievements then those where fine. Making it temporary and so a grind makes them just as bad not to say even worse because of the time-pressure.

And there are now about 4 ingame. Tequatl, The new worm world boss, a dungeon and I think one can drop in Southsun (not 100% sure).

The bosses have there own problem (spawning once in every two hours and being to much depended on just random people there doing the same event) but lets for a moment act like they solve that problem.

Then there are about four really mini’s ingame. However the whole collecting of mini’s has already been destroyed. No way you can still get a full or almost full collection because you likely missed out on some (the temporary ones, being it in the cash-shop or in achievements) and even if you didn’t miss any so far except for those 4 the rest are a grind.

So sadly those 4 aren’t fun anymore because Anet sucked the fun out of collecting mini’s.

If it was the other way around (4 out of the game the rest in-game) I would have been fine with it.

several in southsun i think 3. So you have 6 out of it. Anet needs to make money some how as a large portion of the money goes to NCsoft. Your concerned over minis but you should be happy that they actually put in minis that you can find cause since launch they were gem store exclusive.

They have to make money indeed and I did gave an option for that expansions. Then I am also willing to pay. Not gonna spend a dime on the cash-shop that only has been sucking the fun out of this game.

I also told you they they also destroyed the fun in collecting minis so why should I be happy for those 6 (if you are correct.. I think a few where only during the LS there)? It does not make it any better. I haven’t been trying to get them because it’s not fun collecting mini’s anyway. Those 4 or 6 don’t make it any better, full collection still is a big grind. kitten even if they added another 100 to the game it would not make it better. Only way to make it better is to take all those that have been in temporary achievements, and the ones that had been and are in the gem-store and put those in the world (in specific places).

Only then it makes collecting the mini’s fun again and only then I am happy.

Yes they are indeed now not able to do that because they focus on the cash-shop to generate income. Thats why I made a topic about that: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/A-focus-on-micro-transactions/page/3#post3593248

I am very much aware of the root cause of the problem. So they need to change that before they are even able to solve the problem. The only good option I see is focusing there income on expansions.

Only then are they also able to throw all those mini’s in the game (in specific places!). And not only mini’s but also the skins and making dyes account-bound and putting the colors in the game so you can hunt for that and same for the finishers and so on.