Guild Wars 2

Suddenflame.2601:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Suddenflame.2601:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Well congratulations on starting an opinion based topic that anyone who’s played the game can easily see as ridiculous. MMOs are largely about the loot. You’ve asked a few times when trying to make you opinion sound like fact for someone to name a game that has less grind and better RNG than GW2, so I’ll answer…. World of Warcraft. I left WoW 3 years ago but I played it non stop from beta until I left. If you want something in WoW you can get it by killing mob X or by running dungeon Y until you get it, this goes for anything you want. In GW2 let’s say I try to farm lodestones, I may get 1 or 10 or none since its RNG, and until DR kicks in even though I may not have had even ONE drop. And there is no way to guarantee a precursor drop, I’ve never had one in all of my time in game, and I’ve played hard since beta.

So killing Mob X over and over is still RNG and no different from GW2 as the killing does not gurantee that desired result. Same with Dungeon Y. Both have RNG. So whats your point in stating it has the exact same type of RNG as GW2? There is no way to guarantee a drop from what you just said about WoW either since its still under RNG. Precursors as stated above are not set into a location due to their availability to everyone (expect PVP). Only difference between GW2 RNG and WoW RNG that you stated so far is WoW has rare items set to locations where as GW2 does not.

This means there is higher access to this object than in WoW. Since there is higher access to it they countered it by placing it under a lower value to keep its economic value higher. If it was guaranteed the weapon essentially would be worthless and common which in turn makes legendaries lower in value in comparison to other exotics that are harder to acquire.

Your response indicates that either you did not or cannot comprehend what I wrote, or that you no experience with WoW, at all, which why you dare claim that resources are more accessible in this game than in that one. Very funny.

Do you know what accessibility is? In WoW it is true that certain armour and weapons exist in certain locations. Which means it has low accessibility. Since there is only one way to get that gear. Higher accessibility means there are more ways to get that gear. GW2 dungeon armour has low accessibility. Precursors in GW2 have a high accessibility but extremely low availability due to their drop rates being low but can be found in all parts of the game.

No, the fact that it drops at many places does not make it more accessible. The opposite if it drops in one place (a little more) it’s more accessible for the person interested in that item then a very general drop anywhere.

And for as far as items are not account-bound the grind for gold option is always available in an MMO but in GW2 it’s to often the only way to really get it / work towards getting it.

Suddenflame.2601:

Devata.6589:

ronpierce.2760:

Devata.6589:

ronpierce.2760:

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Why would it be worse for vertically then for horizontal? Like if a gold-grind suddenly becomes more fun when it’s horizontal.

The only reason YOU personally don’t mind that is because you don’t care about those items.

“Grinding for ever for visuals, be my guest. For the most part I’d probably skip out on it, but I wouldn’t mind it existing.”

So when complaining about your game-play please also don’t forget about others people game-play.

It’s just as bad horizontal as vertical it just depends on the persons game-play if it hurts him.

I agree the grinding is bad, really across the board. But it’s more acceptable to have longer term goals when they don’t hinder basic game play (ie making you less of a competitive player). But like I said, honestly most of the “purely visual” grinds in this game already aren’t that bad… It’s almost entirely Ascended armor/Legendary that takes grinding to a whole new level, which IS (I’m agreeing with you) waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long even for just visual grinds… But also, incredibly too long for the sake of a vertical progression specifically. I won’t take back that grinding for visuals taking a bit longer than vertical isn’t bad nor uncommon. That’s one of the many ways to increase the “value” of horizontal progression armor, by making it more exclusive/harder to get. But in the case of GW2, yes, it’s WAY too much. At this point, 1.5 years into the game, pretty much everyone should have been able to gotten a legendary weapon without ever spending a single dime or gold, just by playing the game. And in turn, new stuff should have come out, for more NEW things to grind for (albeit much much SMALLER grinds/farms/goals, what ever you want to call it). The time it takes to get ascended items and legendary items is beyond decent design, but I still firmly believe it is a money-grab.

Nice that we seem to agree on the most part but you say “But it’s more acceptable to have longer term goals when they don’t hinder basic game play” you really have to rethink that.

It hinders basic game-play when you are into the combat. But some people are into collecting those skins or mini’s that is there game-play. So as much as the vertical stuff hinders your game-play that horizontal grind hinders others peoples game-play.

“But like I said, honestly most of the “purely visual” grinds in this game already aren’t that bad…" With this one you are referring to dungeon sets and so I guess. And thats true those aren’t that bad. At the same time I also don’t think they are fun. Doing dungeons to get tokens to buy it is not my type of game-play but indeed they are not that hard. 20 runs or so to get a complete set? Thats en perceptible farm.

However think of the mini examples I gave Suddenflame. If you like to go in to the world to collect mini’s thats not really possible (they are not in the world) and as far as you get get them it’s an never ending gold grind. Some others are in temporary achievements what does not make it any better, that makes it “get it now or never get it.. and there go’s your collection” same for some of them in the cash-shop and then 2 weeks later again, and then again and again and… well you get the point.

“but I still firmly believe it is a money-grab.”
Yes, all that is thats where my dislike for the cash-shop focus comes from.

Just to point out there are minis that exist in the world and only in the world.

I know I referred to them before. There are the mini’s you can get with grinding temporary achievements. Not really in the world but half you could say. Wasn’t it for the fact that it are temporary achievements then those where fine. Making it temporary and so a grind makes them just as bad not to say even worse because of the time-pressure.

And there are now about 4 ingame. Tequatl, The new worm world boss, a dungeon and I think one can drop in Southsun (not 100% sure).

The bosses have there own problem (spawning once in every two hours and being to much depended on just random people there doing the same event) but lets for a moment act like they solve that problem.

Then there are about four really mini’s ingame. However the whole collecting of mini’s has already been destroyed. No way you can still get a full or almost full collection because you likely missed out on some (the temporary ones, being it in the cash-shop or in achievements) and even if you didn’t miss any so far except for those 4 the rest are a grind.

So sadly those 4 aren’t fun anymore because Anet sucked the fun out of collecting mini’s.

If it was the other way around (4 out of the game the rest in-game) I would have been fine with it.

Suddenflame.2601:

Aidenwolf.5964:

Well congratulations on starting an opinion based topic that anyone who’s played the game can easily see as ridiculous. MMOs are largely about the loot. You’ve asked a few times when trying to make you opinion sound like fact for someone to name a game that has less grind and better RNG than GW2, so I’ll answer…. World of Warcraft. I left WoW 3 years ago but I played it non stop from beta until I left. If you want something in WoW you can get it by killing mob X or by running dungeon Y until you get it, this goes for anything you want. In GW2 let’s say I try to farm lodestones, I may get 1 or 10 or none since its RNG, and until DR kicks in even though I may not have had even ONE drop. And there is no way to guarantee a precursor drop, I’ve never had one in all of my time in game, and I’ve played hard since beta.

So killing Mob X over and over is still RNG and no different from GW2 as the killing does not gurantee that desired result. Same with Dungeon Y. Both have RNG. So whats your point in stating it has the exact same type of RNG as GW2? There is no way to guarantee a drop from what you just said about WoW either since its still under RNG. Precursors as stated above are not set into a location due to their availability to everyone (expect PVP). Only difference between GW2 RNG and WoW RNG that you stated so far is WoW has rare items set to locations where as GW2 does not.

This means there is higher access to this object than in WoW. Since there is higher access to it they countered it by placing it under a lower value to keep its economic value higher. If it was guaranteed the weapon essentially would be worthless and common which in turn makes legendaries lower in value in comparison to other exotics that are harder to acquire.

That does not mean a higher access. That all depends on the drop-rate.

But indeed the big difference is that it’s available in a specific spot vs a more general drop. In GW2 it’s not in a specific spot so you can’t hunt for a specific item, resulting in that to get the item it’s all a gold grind.

Thats indeed the exactly problem I am trying to tell you.

Now you seem to see the difference but fail to see why this makes it a problem. And thats of course for the items ingame. Items out of the world (mini in the cash-shop) can’t drop at all. But in the end that does not change much because it still comes down to a gold-grind to get what you want.

Like I said before. When you are hunting down an item (in one spot) it’s aways that feeling of “will is drop?” and then if it drops they epic feeling that it dropped.

While with a gold-grind it’s just that a gold-grind seeing your gold (or other currency) slowly go up to eventually being able to buy the item. No so much fun.

ronpierce.2760:

Devata.6589:

ronpierce.2760:

The grind most people are upset about aren’t the visual grinds. I’m pretty sure you know that by now… In fact most of the “visual” grinds aren’t very bad at all. Dungeon sets, T3 cultural, etc all of these are fairly easy to grind out. But when you need 250 each of several t6 mats, this and that, AND your best route is to buy them, and it’s to progress VERTICALLY (not horizontally for looks) and in no realistic way could you do it without either buying gold or (less efficiently) farm the gold… That’s the problem. Grinding for ever for visuals, be my guest. For the most part I’d probably skip out on it, but I wouldn’t mind it existing. But these kind of farms to be competitive/on the same playing field as others, it starts to push the boundary of pay to win.

Why would it be worse for vertically then for horizontal? Like if a gold-grind suddenly becomes more fun when it’s horizontal.

The only reason YOU personally don’t mind that is because you don’t care about those items.

“Grinding for ever for visuals, be my guest. For the most part I’d probably skip out on it, but I wouldn’t mind it existing.”

So when complaining about your game-play please also don’t forget about others people game-play.

It’s just as bad horizontal as vertical it just depends on the persons game-play if it hurts him.

I agree the grinding is bad, really across the board. But it’s more acceptable to have longer term goals when they don’t hinder basic game play (ie making you less of a competitive player). But like I said, honestly most of the “purely visual” grinds in this game already aren’t that bad… It’s almost entirely Ascended armor/Legendary that takes grinding to a whole new level, which IS (I’m agreeing with you) waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long even for just visual grinds… But also, incredibly too long for the sake of a vertical progression specifically. I won’t take back that grinding for visuals taking a bit longer than vertical isn’t bad nor uncommon. That’s one of the many ways to increase the “value” of horizontal progression armor, by making it more exclusive/harder to get. But in the case of GW2, yes, it’s WAY too much. At this point, 1.5 years into the game, pretty much everyone should have been able to gotten a legendary weapon without ever spending a single dime or gold, just by playing the game. And in turn, new stuff should have come out, for more NEW things to grind for (albeit much much SMALLER grinds/farms/goals, what ever you want to call it). The time it takes to get ascended items and legendary items is beyond decent design, but I still firmly believe it is a money-grab.

Nice that we seem to agree on the most part but you say “But it’s more acceptable to have longer term goals when they don’t hinder basic game play” you really have to rethink that.

It hinders basic game-play when you are into the combat. But some people are into collecting those skins or mini’s that is there game-play. So as much as the vertical stuff hinders your game-play that horizontal grind hinders others peoples game-play.

“But like I said, honestly most of the “purely visual” grinds in this game already aren’t that bad…" With this one you are referring to dungeon sets and so I guess. And thats true those aren’t that bad. At the same time I also don’t think they are fun. Doing dungeons to get tokens to buy it is not my type of game-play but indeed they are not that hard. 20 runs or so to get a complete set? Thats an acceptable farm.

However think of the mini examples I gave Suddenflame. If you like to go in to the world to collect mini’s thats not really possible (they are not in the world) and as far as you can get them it’s an never ending gold grind. Some others are in temporary achievements what does not make it any better, that makes it “get it now or never get it.. and there go’s your collection” same for some of them in the cash-shop and then 2 weeks later again, and then again and again and… well you get the point.

“but I still firmly believe it is a money-grab.”
Yes, that is where my dislike for the cash-shop focus comes from.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

85 WvW ranks and the results:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ova0HffwPeU

I’m not sure, does anyone think this is fun? Sure, handing out free rares and exotics isn’t fun either, but when I’m looking at those guaranteed rares for world boss metas…

Even guaranteed rares seem dull to me. I rather have a change for a item that I want then guaranteed a rare I don’t want. Because what then happens is that you sell that rare to then buy the item you want making those bosses nothing more then yet another gold-grind.

Never the tension feeling of “will it drop??” and the epic feeling of “Yes it dropped!!”.

Suddenflame.2601:

Devata.6589:

Ok finally we agree it’s a grind.

Can you now imagine that some (more ‘RPG’) people like that sort of stuff? Collecting mini’s, going for a specific skin doing all that sort of stuff.

And didn’t Anet say GW2 was a good for casual gamers and is it so wrong to think that this is especially something the casual gamer do (collecting mini’s and so on)?

Can you then also see that for those people everything is a big boring grind?

I agree that we did know they had many mini’s in the game during the beta and I did say in the beta-forums that they should have less. Back then it was impossible to know they ONLY had the mini’s in the cash-shop. Also the fact that this was already the case during Beta does not make it any better. You only had access to the beta if you already both the game.

GW had set a big name for itself as a game that generated income with the selling expansions. GW2 was released as a B2P game. Yeah it did have a cash-shop. But at this moment GW2 is much more a micro-transaction based game then a B2P game because it focuses on the cash-shop to generate income. Not on box-sales (including expansions).

I was interested in GW2 mainly because of that B2P and the name they had with GW1. Because I know how micro-transaction based games always hurt the game. Isn’t it P2W then it are these sort of things but it always effects the game in some negative way. So I am very disappointed that GW2 also turned into a micro-transaction based game in stead of a true B2P game. It’s not B2P + micro-transactions where the focus is micro-transactions, not B2P.

Well there is a reason for this focus on the micro-transaction over boxed expansions. The main reasons given by Anet (they have been consistent since before beta about it as well) is that they do not want to fragment the community by releasing expansions. So to generate lost revenue from not selling those expansions (We shall see some major updates in the future I hope that expand the game world) they have to use the cash shop.

Unless you can think of a way for them to generate revenue without them selling boxed expansions and not using the cash shop this is how their business model is going to work.

Anet stated long ago that cosmetics will be a grind to get. What they defined as casuals are people who just log in to complete the daily or have 30mins to 1hr to play each day. With that definition in mind would that person care about digital pixels that they can only see 1hr at most each day (or less)?

That fragmentation would be true for the way GW1’s expansions work. For expansions like you can expect them in GW2 thats not so much true. Yes a new continent might not be accessible for a part of the community but thats all. They can still play the same game and can play together in most of the world, it are not separate games like GW1 expansions. That also why you never hear this complain by any other MMO developers.. I never did at least.

The type of fragmentation you would have is not more then what the overflow-system or WvW (in stead of open PvP) now creates.

What they said (or I hear them say) is that they would not make expansions the way they did in GW1 because there it fragmented the player-base. Before release however they did say they would for sure make expansions and everybody was expecting that until about 6 months after release they suddenly said that the game might never get an expansions.

Thats the actual story. They way you tell it is how many fanboys (not saying you are one.. maybe they told you) are now trying to defend the idea that GW2 might never get an expansion.

“Unless you can think of a way for them to generate revenue without them selling boxed expansions and not using the cash shop this is how their business model is going to work.”
I am saying they should sell expansion to generate the money.

“Anet stated long ago that cosmetics will be a grind to get.” No they never said “oow we have this great game without grind. Except for mini’s and skins and other fun things, that will be a boring grind”. No they never said anything close to that.

“What they defined as casuals are people who just log in to complete the daily or have 30mins to 1hr to play each day.” A casual gamer might indeed play less hours but at the same time he might also do other things ingame. The the one does not excludes the other. Funny enough, if time ingame was the only reason then they still failed with the temporary available rewards and achievements.

“With that definition in mind would that person care about digital pixels that they can only see 1hr at most each day (or less)?” Why not? If thats what they like. Isn’t one of the main goals here nice looking pixels (the legendary weapon)? What in my opinion proofs they did also refer to people who like that sort of stuff as casual players.

ronpierce.2760:

The grind most people are upset about aren’t the visual grinds. I’m pretty sure you know that by now… In fact most of the “visual” grinds aren’t very bad at all. Dungeon sets, T3 cultural, etc all of these are fairly easy to grind out. But when you need 250 each of several t6 mats, this and that, AND your best route is to buy them, and it’s to progress VERTICALLY (not horizontally for looks) and in no realistic way could you do it without either buying gold or (less efficiently) farm the gold… That’s the problem. Grinding for ever for visuals, be my guest. For the most part I’d probably skip out on it, but I wouldn’t mind it existing. But these kind of farms to be competitive/on the same playing field as others, it starts to push the boundary of pay to win.

Why would it be worse for vertically then for horizontal? Like if a gold-grind suddenly becomes more fun when it’s horizontal.

The only reason YOU personally don’t mind that is because you don’t care about those items.

“Grinding for ever for visuals, be my guest. For the most part I’d probably skip out on it, but I wouldn’t mind it existing.”

So when complaining about your game-play please also don’t forget about others people game-play.

It’s just as bad horizontal as vertical it just depends on the persons game-play if it hurts him.

Suddenflame.2601:

Devata.6589:

Suddenflame.2601:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Suddenflame.2601:

maddoctor.2738:

ronpierce.2760:

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very true argument. There is nothing more I can add to this one.

If the good player always wins and gear matters little, why are you grinding out the mats for ascended? Why not sell them and make a lot of money? Since you know, ascended doesn’t matter?

I already have enough money. Also like I said I am not grinding the materials. I am gathering them through normal gameplay.

That only works for lower tier materials.

With normal game-play I managed to get about 3 Charged Lodestone and maybe 15 Charged Core’s. Now with two ingame friend (one being a dungeon runner) sending me there’s as well I have 12 Charged Lodestone and 63 Charged cores. That make a total of 43 Charged Lodestone. If I am correct the minimum you need of them (for a legendary) is 100. I need 250 for what I wanted to make.

Now this is without farming just game-play (and not only mine) because you can’t really farm them. I did google and there is one place where there is a little more change to get them so I did try to farm them there. Problem was that it’s not always possible (depends on some event) and when trying to farm them in about 4 hours total I did get 1 charged core. So while that might have been the best option it’s not really farm-able especially not if you need 100 or 250 of them.

Looking at the other lodestones I have (including 2 cores counting for 1 lodestone) I have about an average of 7. I must say I think I gave some of the Molten Lodestone away and that where the ones most easy to get so lets make it an average of 10. Of normal game-play over a year (been in the game since the beginning but last half year less and less active). So no, you can’t get them with normal game-play and most you also can’t really farm.

The way to then get it is to grind gold and buy them. And that is what I have not been doing.. as can been seen by the low number. Also all the people I know that have legendaries grinded gold to buy the mats they needed. Nobody really got the mats themselves because thats simply not an option.

FOTM has a high rate of Lodestone and core drop rate. If you dont care about which one your getting. Cause in my normal gameplay i gotten more than you just from FOTM.

I do care about which one I get and I know FOTM now has the highest general drop for them (not specific ones.. so then in a way it again becomes a gold grind.. grind FOTM for lodestones and sell the ones you don’t want to buy the ones you want) but then still it’s doing a lot of FOTM before you get what you need.

And it’s not like I don’t want to do a lot of work to get an item (that makes an item more special) that I need but as I said I don’t like grinding currency to get an item and you might see how needing 100 or 250 of a specific lodestones turns that lodestone also into a form of currency.

So when it comes to mats (where you need many of) it should be easier to farm them imho. Like what happened with some mats in the past and then Anet patched it out.

But farming a specific item (also if you need that 1 item to create something.. so like mats but then you only need 1) I don’t mind if it’s very hard and to get it. However when collecting a whole bunch of it.. being it gold or lodestone that is just not fun for me many many of the people complaining here.

If it’s one item every time you know that item may drop. So every time there is this feeling of “will it drop now?!”. You might be lucky and get it the first go or unlucky and need many more then runs that the average but every time there is that feeling.
Thats what makes it fun and epic when you get it.

When grinding gold or mats then when it finally drops or you get the gold there is only the feeling of “ok 99 more to go.. pfff” and when you then finally create the item you want it might be partly “epic” but also partly “nice to be done with that”.

Suddenflame.2601:

Devata.6589:

Suddenflame.2601:

ronpierce.2760:

Suddenflame.2601:

ronpierce.2760:

chemiclord.3978:

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I am wondering so much I don’t know what to say but that is some carrot chasing. The only time I repeat the process is when I am trying to increase my skill at that task, such as jumping puzzles.

If I remember correctly there was a psychological test done on animals for this.

Farming can be relaxing but ONLY if it feels rewarding. How in the world are you going to “wonder about me” feeling okay with SOME level of grinding/farming, when you’re the one defending the grind in GW2, the same grind that I (someone who even CAN get behind grinding) feels is too much. Sounds like you need to be worrying about yourself… This ascended armor very much is a carrot chase. Once Legendary armor comes out, you’ll have another long run for the carrot. And guess what, it’ll be just as if not more grindy than this one. The problem isn’t that there Is a grind, its that it’s so much based on gold grinding and not farming the actual materials you need. They can’t up the drop rates because it would hurt the economy, thus yes. This game IS economy driven, and it is a very-very bad thing.

As I said before I don’t grind in this game cause there isn’t a need to grind. Your creating your own grind. Your trying to change the game to match your grinding gameplay which in the long run would hurt the core of the game. If you stop trying to force a grind into a game that does not want or need it than the game becomes fun. Why are you even trying to grind? Legendaries are a long term PvE goal as stated by Anet. The issue is that people are trying to force Long term goals into short-term time frames.

So if I want the Jack-a-lop mini. How do I get in in the game? Because thats what I like to do. Go on a hunt for that mini. That is what I think is fun. So please tell me how do I do that without a need to grind gold? Please enlighten me.

Since the mini can only be found the TP you need gold. Which means you do need to grind for it. This has been known from the start of the game (even in beta we knew as they told us even then) that certain cosmetic items will needed to be grinded to gain them. Minis are one of those items. I can not deny that they are a grind to get as that would be against what Anet said. I am talking more on the weapons and armour tiers. Cosmetic versions of each (such as Teq) will need to be grinded to get his weapons.

Ok finally we agree it’s a grind.

Can you now imagine that some (more ‘RPG’) people like that sort of stuff? Collecting mini’s, going for a specific skin doing all that sort of stuff.

And didn’t Anet say GW2 was a good for casual gamers and is it so wrong to think that this is especially something the casual gamer do (collecting mini’s and so on)?

Can you then also see that for those people everything is a big boring grind?

I agree that we did know they had many mini’s in the game during the beta and I did say in the beta-forums that they should have less. Back then it was impossible to know they ONLY had the mini’s in the cash-shop. Also the fact that this was already the case during Beta does not make it any better. You only had access to the beta if you already both the game.

GW had set a big name for itself as a game that generated income with the selling expansions. GW2 was released as a B2P game. Yeah it did have a cash-shop. But at this moment GW2 is much more a micro-transaction based game then a B2P game because it focuses on the cash-shop to generate income. Not on box-sales (including expansions).

I was interested in GW2 mainly because of that B2P and the name they had with GW1. Because I know how micro-transaction based games always hurt the game. Isn’t it P2W then it are these sort of things but it always effects the game in some negative way. So I am very disappointed that GW2 also turned into a micro-transaction based game in stead of a true B2P game. It’s not B2P + micro-transactions where the focus is micro-transactions, not B2P.

BTW the Teq mini and skin is a example of how it should be. Go kill that boss to be able to get that skin or mini.

Problem is that collecting them is already destroyed so why then still go for the 3 mini’s ingame. And the Teq fight is to much based on the luck of getting in a group of players that know what they are doing (not to mention having to wait maybe 2 hours for it to spawn). But that is a whole other problem. In essence the Teq weapons and mini that drop from him are how they all should be. Then you are not required to grind gold but are able to farm that specific item in that specific way.

Suddenflame.2601:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Suddenflame.2601:

maddoctor.2738:

ronpierce.2760:

You know whats better than skill OR gear? Skill AND gear. Also yes, it’s a team effort but you do know when 1 TEAM outgears another TEAM, the difference REALLY starts to add up… In a team environment the gear differences can make a BIGGER difference than 1v1, not smaller. A team of full ascended gear consisting of 2 support guardian, a condi necro, hammer/longbow warrior, staff ele, and say an engineer could kill probably 20 people in full exotics… (This isn’t an exaggeration)

Skill AND Gear > Skill of course
Your example works both ways, a team of 2 support guardians, a condi necro, hammer/longbow warrior, staff ele, and say an engineer all geared in greens, could kill 20 people in exotics. It’s the team strategy, combination of skills etc that will give them the extra edge. I know what you are saying, if both sides are equal in terms of skill, obviously the side with the most Ascended will win, but skill can’t be measured so easily.

A bad player is a bad player, even if he wears ascended. A good player is a good player even he wears greens (or maybe rares). The good player will always win.

very true argument. There is nothing more I can add to this one.

If the good player always wins and gear matters little, why are you grinding out the mats for ascended? Why not sell them and make a lot of money? Since you know, ascended doesn’t matter?

I already have enough money. Also like I said I am not grinding the materials. I am gathering them through normal gameplay.

That only works for lower tier materials.

With normal game-play I managed to get about 3 Charged Lodestone and maybe 15 Charged Core’s. Now with two ingame friend (one being a dungeon runner) sending me there’s as well I have 12 Charged Lodestone and 63 Charged cores. That make a total of 43 Charged Lodestone. If I am correct the minimum you need of them (for a legendary) is 100. I need 250 for what I wanted to make.

Now this is without farming just game-play (and not only mine) because you can’t really farm them. I did google and there is one place where there is a little more change to get them so I did try to farm them there. Problem was that it’s not always possible (depends on some event) and when trying to farm them in about 4 hours total I did get 1 charged core. So while that might have been the best option it’s not really farm-able especially not if you need 100 or 250 of them.

Looking at the other lodestones I have (including 2 cores counting for 1 lodestone) I have about an average of 7. I must say I think I gave some of the Molten Lodestone away and that where the ones most easy to get so lets make it an average of 10. Of normal game-play over a year (been in the game since the beginning but last half year less and less active). So no, you can’t get them with normal game-play and most you also can’t really farm.

The way to then get it is to grind gold and buy them. And that is what I have not been doing.. as can been seen by the low number. Also all the people I know that have legendaries grinded gold to buy the mats they needed. Nobody really got the mats themselves because thats simply not an option.

Suddenflame.2601:

ronpierce.2760:

Suddenflame.2601:

ronpierce.2760:

chemiclord.3978:

RNG and grind are two of those necessary evils in MMO games… they’re an easy way to make content repeatable, and content in an MMO pretty much has to be repeatable because there is no way a company can make content as fast as players can consume it.

I think players know that and understand that; the issue tends to be the degree and scale of RNG and grind.

I love farming and grinding. But you have to be able to OBTAIN these items, not farm gold to buy them because RNG is soooooo bad that there’s no other way… If I could go out and say have a 50% chance to get 1 (ONE) of the 250 (TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY) of a single PART of… ugh, you get the idea… If I could realistically farm these fragments, sure… But kitten buying them all… zzzz.

If you love farming and grinding I am going to wonder about you for a bit. Repeating the same process over and over is repetitive and boring no matter the rewards involved. If that is your fun is repeating the process just to obtain a reward I just got to wonder.

I am wondering so much I don’t know what to say but that is some carrot chasing. The only time I repeat the process is when I am trying to increase my skill at that task, such as jumping puzzles.

If I remember correctly there was a psychological test done on animals for this.

Farming can be relaxing but ONLY if it feels rewarding. How in the world are you going to “wonder about me” feeling okay with SOME level of grinding/farming, when you’re the one defending the grind in GW2, the same grind that I (someone who even CAN get behind grinding) feels is too much. Sounds like you need to be worrying about yourself… This ascended armor very much is a carrot chase. Once Legendary armor comes out, you’ll have another long run for the carrot. And guess what, it’ll be just as if not more grindy than this one. The problem isn’t that there Is a grind, its that it’s so much based on gold grinding and not farming the actual materials you need. They can’t up the drop rates because it would hurt the economy, thus yes. This game IS economy driven, and it is a very-very bad thing.

As I said before I don’t grind in this game cause there isn’t a need to grind. Your creating your own grind. Your trying to change the game to match your grinding gameplay which in the long run would hurt the core of the game. If you stop trying to force a grind into a game that does not want or need it than the game becomes fun. Why are you even trying to grind? Legendaries are a long term PvE goal as stated by Anet. The issue is that people are trying to force Long term goals into short-term time frames.

So if I want the Jack-a-lop mini. How do I get it in the game? Because thats what I like to do. Go on a hunt for that mini. That is what I think is fun. So please tell me how do I do that without a need to grind gold? Please enlighten me.

ronpierce.2760:

Suddenflame.2601:

ronpierce.2760:

chemiclord.3978:

RNG and grind are two of those necessary evils in MMO games… they’re an easy way to make content repeatable, and content in an MMO pretty much has to be repeatable because there is no way a company can make content as fast as players can consume it.

I think players know that and understand that; the issue tends to be the degree and scale of RNG and grind.

I love farming and grinding. But you have to be able to OBTAIN these items, not farm gold to buy them because RNG is soooooo bad that there’s no other way… If I could go out and say have a 50% chance to get 1 (ONE) of the 250 (TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY) of a single PART of… ugh, you get the idea… If I could realistically farm these fragments, sure… But kitten buying them all… zzzz.

If you love farming and grinding I am going to wonder about you for a bit. Repeating the same process over and over is repetitive and boring no matter the rewards involved. If that is your fun is repeating the process just to obtain a reward I just got to wonder.

I am wondering so much I don’t know what to say but that is some carrot chasing. The only time I repeat the process is when I am trying to increase my skill at that task, such as jumping puzzles.

If I remember correctly there was a psychological test done on animals for this.

Farming can be relaxing but ONLY if it feels rewarding. How in the world are you going to “wonder about me” feeling okay with SOME level of grinding/farming, when you’re the one defending the grind in GW2, the same grind that I (someone who even CAN get behind grinding) feels is too much. Sounds like you need to be worrying about yourself… This ascended armor very much is a carrot chase. Once Legendary armor comes out, you’ll have another long run for the carrot. And guess what, it’ll be just as if not more grindy than this one. The problem isn’t that there Is a grind, its that it’s so much based on gold grinding and not farming the actual materials you need. They can’t up the drop rates because it would hurt the economy, thus yes. This game IS economy driven, and it is a very-very bad thing.

I agree only the last element I disagree on. Upping the drops would maybe be bad for the economy but it would not solve the problem.

To solve the problem you have to put the items and mats into the game at specific places. Now items are not in the game (many skins and mini’s are just gem-store) and many mots are to much world-loot drop. So you can’t farm for the items of mats you want but you just grind for gold and getting items you do not want (but other people do) and other people get the items you want. So then you earn gold and buy the items you want.

But indeed that does not feels rewarding, it feels boring.

Gold it then only important for some vendor items. But Anet is trying to make money on the cash-shop so they can’t change that until they make money in another way. Like on expansions in stead of on a cash-shop.
But just upping the drops would not help. They should simply put it in specific paces in the game. You can farm those mats at that location from those mobs, you can get that color (dye) from that bos (100%) and another color (10%). That mini will drom from that quest (as far as there are quest) and so on.

Then you can farm the items you like in a fun way.

Suddenflame.2601:

Devata.6589:

nagr.1593:

Stop thinking it as ‘grinding’. find a way to make gold that u have fun with. for instance I run dungeons (only the ones I like though) for an easy 15-20g/day and am satisfied with that. haven’t jumped on a single train and dont ever plan on it.

But that is not fun for me. I have no fun doing something to get money. I have fun going for a item. That is what I consider fun. And because every item then requires another route I get to do different things all the time. Fun again.

But GW2 simply required a gold-grind. You can’t really go for an item. And if you ,after a patch, are able to farm some mats it gets patched out in a few hours. They don’t want you to farm items or mats because they want you to buy items or gold. When you are having fun playing the game to get to your goal (those items) you are not buying it so they make sure you can’t do that. Sadly there are then enough people foolish enough that they will indeed buy it.

What now happens is that many people dislike to have to grind gold for items so they search for the easiest way. What was CoF P1 and now it are the champ trains. And it keeps them busy but are they having fun? Enough of them are doing it just because they have set the goal of getting that legendary or because they are in the game to talk with there guild-members or simply because they don’t have an alternative game (yet).

But many haven’t fun doing it and thats why you also see so many negative reactions on the forum.

An exploit is an exploit. Anet has added many ways to farm for awhile now and even added locations to farm at during certain LS. Anet does not want people just to play in a single area for all the money, but rather you spread out across the entire world (they still failing at that, but they are working on it).

Anet is not forcing people to play as they do. The goal the developers are wanting the players to do is to have fun. The players on the other hand are forcing their own unfun grind.

Let me ask you this what do the majority of the people do after they get their legendary? Since that was their only goal, and now they have achieved it what do they do?

That where no exploit (some might, but the majority wasn’t). Something simply dropped enough to be farmable in stead of the rare world drop loots they usually have meaning you cant farm them but just need to grind gold to buy them.

“Anet does not want people just to play in a single area for all the money,” I am talking about farming. Not about grinding for gold. And Anet very much want this gold-focus because you can buy gold with gems. Thats the whole problem. If people can farm the mats they have less reason to buy gems to convert to gold or buy the items them-self from the gem-store.

Besides if there are items to farm they are in many different places (at one place you can farm this mats and in another place you can farm another mat) so there would be a reason to go to many differed places, not to go to one place, that what they are doing now.

“The goal the developers are wanting the players to do is to have fun. The players on the other hand are forcing their own unfun grind. "
Sorry but what a nonsense.
The players are forced into a gold-grind. How do you get most of the mini’s? By grinding gold. They are in the TP (coming from the cash-shop).

I want to have fun, go into the world on a hunt for mini’s, or collect dye colors (if it was account-bound) or go on the hunt for a specific skin. But Anet makes the game so that if I want to go for mini’s (what I don’t want anymore because of this) your only option is to grind gold. I don’t want to do that Anet forces me to do that if I want that mini or a specific dye or a legendary or a skin.

I have no idea what your question about the legendary is about.. But you are right for many thats the only goal why simply because everything is a gold-grind so once you grinded you legendary you don’t feel like also grinding for a dye collection or a mini collection or… well you get the point.
And what they do. Some go for a second legendary, some do some WvW and some leave.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Devata.6589:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

no. the gem store is fine as it is now.

Except for the fact that is has ruined the game for many people.

not my problem.

also, the guild wars 2 gem store does not ruin the game for me.

It has taken a lot of items out of the game.. You can’t go on the hunt for mini’s, dyes (specific colors) skins and so on. That has all been turned into a gold grind.

Going into the world to do such things is exactly what I consider fun.

I did have some fun with WvW and some jumping puzzles but that gets boring at some time. Going into the world to collect those things is fun and can keep you busy for a long time. But it just isn’t in the game except for a gold-grind because of the focus on the gem-store.

And to make thing worse as far as some of these things are in-game it’s behind temporary available achievements. Giving people the feeling they have to do them to not miss out, and then again the 2 weeks later and again 2 weeks later and again 2 weeks later and so on. Great way to burn out people.

But heey, at least they also have an excuse to then also put some new also temporary available item in the gem-store. You want that? Buy it now or you miss out on it.

Oow and it may not be your problem (or it might because as soon as those people start to leave the game will get less and less support) but it makes your statement false. It’s not fine as it is. It’s fine for you (or so you think). Thats something else.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

no. the gem store is fine as it is now.

Except for the fact that is has ruined the game for many people.

WatchTheShow.7203:

Meehael.8240:

~

~

While I agree that in most cases no cash-shop is best (because they tent to turn bad) it’s really the focus on the cash-shop (to generate money) that is the problem.

I went to the WoW shop to have a look.
It has 11 mini’s (what might be to much but the game is also out for 9 years so if they would release one every year you would already be close to those 11)

It has 7 mounts (should really not be any more)

It has 3 helms and 5 payed services: Name changer, full make-over, character transfer and Race Changer, faction change.

Ingame there is in no way a push to buy anything from the cahs-shop. You can collect a few hundred mini’s ingame. And with ingame I don’t mean you need to grind gold to then buy them. Now they are ingame. So when you are done with collecting them all then there are those 11 left in the store (maybe thats then the only push there is?). All in all thats not that big of a problem. However I do think 11 is a little to much still it’s not that much.

Exactly the same is for mounts and helmets.

The services are exactly the kind of things that might be in a cash-shop. It are things that are outside of the game. Changing your name or changing the complete look or changing race and so on is not an element of the game. It’s that sort of services I always point at as an example of the type of items that can indeed be in a cash-shop without effecting the game.

The people behind ESO also stated that they would not have a normal cash-shop but just some things like a name-changer.

So I am sorry but your comparison is very flawed. There are many different types of cash-shops. But the cash-shop always becomes a problem when the company focuses on the cash-shop to generate income. Not saying that there might be P2P games that still had a bad cash-shop and I also agree that the mini’s, mounts and helms should not be in the cash-shop of WoW but overall it’s still very limited.

You act like if every cash-shop is the same. It isn’t. Some people say GW2 cash-shop isn’t one of the worse because it does not have P2W items but thats only true if your main game-play is combat. For other people (that like the more RP elements like collecting mini’s) GW2’s cash-shop and how they influence the game to get you to buy items makes it among the worst cash-shops there are.

The whole game is a gold-grind making the game much less fun but trying to convince you of buying gems to convert to gold.

GW2’s cash shop and the focus on it and how it effect the game is simply not the same as with some of the games you refer to.

Have a thread about exactly this: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/A-focus-on-micro-transactions/page/3#post3593248
It’s the focus on the cash-shop that guarantees to make it a problem.

BTW, this is not to say I want subscriptions. I don’t. I just wanted to point out that what you where saying is not really valid and that cash-shops do effect the game.

I would much rather have them focusing on expansion to generate income. That could potentially solve many problems.. if they then indeed undo all the stuff with the cash-shop.

Because while a focus on the cash-shop is a guarantee for a bad cash-shop and a game negatively effect by it. No focus on it is not a guarantee for that to be gone. Some of your examples where indeed P2P with a bad cash-shop. But not all.

nagr.1593:

Stop thinking it as ‘grinding’. find a way to make gold that u have fun with. for instance I run dungeons (only the ones I like though) for an easy 15-20g/day and am satisfied with that. haven’t jumped on a single train and dont ever plan on it.

But that is not fun for me. I have no fun doing something to get money. I have fun going for a item. That is what I consider fun. And because every item then requires another route I get to do different things all the time. Fun again.

But GW2 simply required a gold-grind. You can’t really go for an item. And if you ,after a patch, are able to farm some mats it gets patched out in a few hours. They don’t want you to farm items or mats because they want you to buy items or gold. When you are having fun playing the game to get to your goal (those items) you are not buying it so they make sure you can’t do that. Sadly there are then enough people foolish enough that they will indeed buy it.

What now happens is that many people dislike to have to grind gold for items so they search for the easiest way. What was CoF P1 and now it are the champ trains. And it keeps them busy but are they having fun? Enough of them are doing it just because they have set the goal of getting that legendary or because they are in the game to talk with there guild-members or simply because they don’t have an alternative game (yet).

But many haven’t fun doing it and thats why you also see so many negative reactions on the forum.

Akari Storm.6809:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

“In most games, you go out and you have really fun tasks occasionally that you get to do and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. I swong a sword. I swong a sword again. Hey! I swong it again and that’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that, no one finds it fun, we want to change the way that people view combat.”

Anet must find their own game horribly boring as what they described as no fun is what most of their game is made of.
They said other games have boring grind and they want to make their game fun.

Do the math:

Grind = boring = no fun
Therefore:
No grind = not boring = fun

Now to say, that there is a bit less grind than in other games is:

A little bit less grind = A little bit less boring = a little bit fun

A really fun game they said…

In Anets defense, the quote you put up looks to me like the context was speaking about combat.

There are 3 truly horrible grinds in this game for me:
1. Spvp rank grind. Scaling between brackets pains me every time I look at it.
2. WvW title grind. Scaling between brackets pains me every time I look at it + majority extend to numbers no one will ever reach.
3. Legendary required material grind. Game forces me to farm gold because I can’t realistically farm the materials myself because of dismal drop rates. Sad that it’s easier to just farm gold and be forced to use the TP.

Loot wise…almost every other game I have played have had better loot systems….that includes GW1. Simply put….if I want to farm an item, I go out and farm it. Can’t be done here. Killing in the open world has devolved into champ only kills and not really doing any events cept the metas here and there. I’m finding it hard to gather motivation to pve at all.

Side note: Wish there was a way to grind laurels. Right now I would accept it. They are just tied to too many things that I would use them for.

Your number 3 is not only true for legendary weapons but for all ‘RP items’ (hard to define that group of items, I usually refer to RP).

You want to collect mini’s. It’s the same problem (in combination with grinding achievements before they are gone forever).
Same for skins, dyes and finishers.

Problem is that they are mainly monetizing that area of the game. And the fact that you can’t farm the items you need because of the way the loot works means you indeed (like you say) have to grind gold. That makes gold more important and thats in the hope people are more likely to buy gems.

I think the thread is nice but nobody seems to be pointing to the source of this problem and thats simply the focus on the cash-shop.

Have a read: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/A-focus-on-micro-transactions/first

Yes I did play many MMORPG’s.

You said “stuff u get will be out dated with new tier of gear while in gw2 your legendary will last forever” and thats nice but there is much more grinding of mini’s and skins in GW then in many other games.

Because in many other MMORPG’s it’s a game-play element while in GW2 it’s a grind.

An MMORPG is simply an RPG with many people active in the open world.

saye.9304:

i totally agree with op, but there are always haters and people who are complain in all games and they have no proper logic for their complain they are just like 12 years old kid who wants something now,and when he is not getting it starts with complain.
however ill add more games that i played long enough to know them well to your examples: rift and swtor much more grindy than gw2 and stuff u get will be out dated with new tier of gear while in gw2 your legendary will last forever and actually easier to get than some of those so called best in slot gear of those games.

Never had a problem that a mini or a mount got out dated.

The problem here is that there are people like you who only care about stats and don’t understand that many people are interested in other type of game-play in an RPG.

They are monetizing much of the PvE or better RPG element of the game. Gold grind gold grind gold grind and temporary achievements grind.

But heey you can buy gold with gems..

To bad that the game was aimed at casual gamers but it seems to be mainly aimed at there wallets, not by giving them the more casual game-play elements. Thats exactly what they took away.

If you want my money just give me the full game without tricks (gold = everything because of world loot and cash-shop) making the game less fun. You want my money, then sell me an expansion every year / year and a half. Then I might be willing to give you some money.

But I am not going to spend anything in the gem-store that is helping to make this game worse.

You forget about less world drops and more specific drops.

But no I would not pay a subscription. I would however be very willing to buy an expansion every year / year and a half to get this. The way Anet marketed GW2 (“B2P!” not “Micro-transactions!”) and it’s name it had with GW1 was also my main reason to buy GW2.

Sadly the focus on micro-transactions has been destroying this game.

Suddenflame.2601:

Devata.6589:

Suddenflame.2601:

Devata.6589:

Suddenflame.2601:

~

Yes and no. The achievements one you could see as not grinding because you need to do different task for every reward / mini. However the problem is that you can’t also just see it as farming because it’s temporary so you pretty much have to do it or miss out on that mini in total, also it’s always a list of achievements you need to do. Meaning your task is really completing that list. Making it a process of engaging in repetitive task, the completion of the achievements.

So in a way it fits maybe in both definitions and in a way it doesn’t fit in any of them. But simply because of the fact that it’s temporary it really feels like a never ending grind. Complete your list of achievements.. oow there is another list.. completed it, there is another list.

But I agree. The achievements one is one you could also define as not grinding.

The other ones are very much a gold-grind.

But like I said, the definition is always a little vague. Because if you want to collect all mini’s (Not in GW2) in many games one mini might require you to simply kill one type of mob many times. So then it might look like a grind but looking over the complete collection every mini requires a different approach meaning it is not so much a grind anymore in total but more farming. In the end everything in an MMORPG requires some repetitive work.

The way I like to define it to make a more clear line between the two is the question if there is a currency in between. If you are not directly working for the item you want but just doing repeating task to get the currency to then buy the item it’s more grinding.

If you are doing repeatable work for the specific item it’s farming because different items require different task.

Then only the question is, what are currencies. Tokens and gold are. But can you see crafting mats as currency’s? and how about achievements?

Normally I would say achievements would be farming because you are pretty much farming for that one item but because it’s temporary it becomes an ongoing repeat that makes me define it as a grind.

Also see your own link: “Related terms include farming (in which the repetition is undertaken in order to obtain items, relating the activity to tending a farm field)”.

I tend to think that farming and grinding are the same thing, but one is positive and the other is negative. Grinding to me is a negative term where as farming is a positive term. Both are used in the same context to display different emotions towards the task.

Well it’s not the same but I agree that grinding is more negative then farming. For me at least. But there are also people who prefer grinding over farming.

Suddenflame.2601:

Devata.6589:

Suddenflame.2601:

World of Warcraft (WoW) a subscription based MMORPG that makes you spend weeks to months performing raids to get best-in-slot gear. This is repeated often for new best-in-slot gear is added often. During these raids it is not guaranteed that you will get the piece you need. Some raids you can only perform once a week making you wait for another chance (hence chance) at getting the piece you need. To get other items in the game you need to compete with other players (as drops are not shared between the players) to grind to get items since drop rates are low to force you to grind.

Been talking a lot about this in the micro-transactions thread and let me tell you this.

If I want to collect mini’s in GW2 there are 3 main ways.

1 Grinding achievements against the clock because they will be removed within a few weeks.

2 Grinding gold to buy the mini’s from the TP.

3 Buying items or gold (to buy the items) with cash.

If I was to do the same thing in WoW I would do a quest for one mini or create another mini with a craft or do a dungeon (sometimes completing sometimes farming a dungeon) for another mini, or farming a specific type of mobs for yet another mini.
Oow and if you want to grind gold to then buy it from the TP that is in many cases still an option but not required.

I am very sorry to say but if it’s this sort of game-play you like GW2 is the most grindy game out there and no, your WoW example does not require the same amount of grind. It might require some farming but at least you can then farm for one specific item and every item does then require another farm. But here it is almost all gold grind, gold grind, gold grind ,and achievement grinds.

I also have the feeling you are mixing up farming and grinding but to be fair the definition is a little vague.

Main thing to blame. The focus on the micro/transactions because this way they make buying gems to convert to gold much more interesting.

I think your mixing up the terms a bit lol

Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding_

Farming is grinding as you are repeating the same process over and over. The Achievement minis are not a grind since you do not repeat the same process over and over. I own a large number of minis without grinding. To get all the minis i will have to farm (aka grind) for it such as mini karka.

Yes and no. The achievements one you could see as not grinding because you need to do different task for every reward / mini. However the problem is that you can’t also just see it as farming because it’s temporary so you pretty much have to do it or miss out on that mini in total, also it’s always a list of achievements you need to do. Meaning your task is really completing that list. Making it a process of engaging in repetitive task, the completion of the achievements.

So in a way it fits maybe in both definitions and in a way it doesn’t fit in any of them. But simply because of the fact that it’s temporary it really feels like a never ending grind. Complete your list of achievements.. oow there is another list.. completed it, there is another list.

But I agree. The achievements one is one you could also define as not grinding.

The other ones are very much a gold-grind.

But like I said, the definition is always a little vague. Because if you want to collect all mini’s (Not in GW2) in many games one mini might require you to simply kill one type of mob many times. So then it might look like a grind but looking over the complete collection every mini requires a different approach meaning it is not so much a grind anymore in total but more farming. In the end everything in an MMORPG requires some repetitive work.

The way I like to define it to make a more clear line between the two is the question if there is a currency in between. If you are not directly working for the item you want but just doing repeating task to get the currency to then buy the item it’s more grinding.

If you are doing repeatable work for the specific item it’s farming because different items require different task.

Then only the question is, what are currencies. Tokens and gold are, I think a level is as well. But can you see crafting mats as currency’s? and how about achievements?

Normally I would say achievements would be farming because you are pretty much farming for that one item but because it’s temporary it becomes an ongoing repeat that makes me define it as a grind.

Also see your own link: “Related terms include farming (in which the repetition is undertaken in order to obtain items, relating the activity to tending a farm field)”.

Suddenflame.2601:

World of Warcraft (WoW) a subscription based MMORPG that makes you spend weeks to months performing raids to get best-in-slot gear. This is repeated often for new best-in-slot gear is added often. During these raids it is not guaranteed that you will get the piece you need. Some raids you can only perform once a week making you wait for another chance (hence chance) at getting the piece you need. To get other items in the game you need to compete with other players (as drops are not shared between the players) to grind to get items since drop rates are low to force you to grind.

Been talking a lot about this in the micro-transactions thread and let me tell you this.

If I want to collect mini’s in GW2 there are 3 main ways.

1 Grinding achievements against the clock because they will be removed within a few weeks.

2 Grinding gold to buy the mini’s from the TP.

3 Buying items or gold (to buy the items) with cash.

If I was to do the same thing in WoW I would do a quest for one mini or create another mini with a craft or do a dungeon (sometimes completing sometimes farming a dungeon) for another mini, or farming a specific type of mobs for yet another mini.
Oow and if you want to grind gold to then buy it from the TP that is in many cases still an option but not required.

I am very sorry to say but if it’s this sort of game-play you like GW2 is the most grindy game out there and no, your WoW example does not require the same amount of grind. It might require some farming but at least you can then farm for one specific item and every item does then require another farm. But here it is almost all gold grind, gold grind, gold grind ,and achievement grinds.

I also have the feeling you are mixing up farming and grinding but to be fair the definition is a little vague.

Main thing to blame. The focus on the micro/transactions because this way they make buying gems to convert to gold much more interesting.

Judge Banks.9018:

Vayne.8563:

Judge Banks.9018:

Vayne.8563:

Judge Banks.9018:

Guild Wars 2 Flat PvE Square miles = 58
Vanilla WoW Flat Square miles = 80

Using the same methods found in this infograph
Which spawned from this thread

Do note that this simply a flat surface measurement.

Relevance?

To the back and forth kitten posting between you and devata, none.

To those discussing the world size, project size, and whatever worthless derailment they can attempt to grasp at, a small reminder.

So, aside from map size, how many quests did vanilla WoW launch with? Because Guild Wars 2 is much bigger in that sense with over 1500 dynamic events, at least 50 personal story quests per character, 300 hearts.

There is so much more content in Guild Wars 2 than there was in vanilla WoW it’s not even funny.

Which is interesting, because I distinctly remember spending more time with the general leveling experience in vanilla wow. Yet my first playthough with GW2, 1 week Zhaitan dead and story missions complete, 2 weeks oh look all explorable dungeons cleared. Then came the point where you were map completing because there was simply nothing else to do, after that came the endless farming(Also known as the waste of time).

Unfortunately this isn’t really the thread to discuss how dynamic events only serve the purpose of spoon feeding exp and rewards to the player. Whilst making sure that players get to participate the most non-competitve PvE scene to date. However 300 hearts seems in-line with the original planning for WoW’s quest line.

“Then came the point where you were map completing because there was simply nothing else to do, after that came the endless farming(Also known as the waste of time).”
Ok so you are saying that while it might have as many content it feels less because there is ‘nothing to do’ and its all grind grind.

What links to what I was telling a some time back that I like to go into the world and collect mini’s in stead of grind grind gold for them. Because going into the world and collecting them is my end-game and that is pretty much non-existing because of the cash-shop focus (the main reason those elements are not in the game)?

But I think there point about the size was mainly that they think that expansion-based would not work or be to risky for a project / game of this size.

From a development viewpoint that size is still the same, even if it might feel smaller because of those thinks.

chemiclord.3978:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I get that you think an expansion model would work better for you, and for those who think like you. However, the proliferation of cash shops — even in games that sell boxes, sell expansions and have a sub — suggest that the companies think shops work better for them.

You really can’t compare MMO business models to non-MMO business models, either. Shops are less likely to work in non MMO games because the players are paying for a much shorter experience (with PvP games being a possible exception). If a game is providing 100 hours of play or less, the consumer is going to expect everything to be included for the box cost. MMO players expect their MMO to provide many thousands of hours of play, for the same cost.

Find a quality MMO that is B2P and makes money only on expansions and we can talk further.

Hell, even non-MMO games are getting into the “cash shop” business. CoD, for example, allows you to buy different and exclusive weapons and ammo with cold, hard cash. EA games are littered with little perks you can buy (not even counting DLC content). I believe Bethesda toyed with it for a while (but I don’t know if it stuck).

As far as I know Bethesda did then get the community all over them because they felt it would harm the game. And then Bethesda decided not to proceed in that way. So you see, there is hope.

I just checked my claim and here it is:
http://elderscrollsotr.mymiddleearth.com/2013/08/23/elder-scrolls-online-will-have-microstransactions/

Funny enough he says ‘Maybe we sell a few thinks like a name-changer’ one of the few things I here also mentioned as something that would not harm the game.

The big difference is that they want to make money with a subscription (Don’t have high hopes for that but we will see) so the cash-shop is only an extra and like I said (also see the topic-title) it’s the focus on the cash-shop that creates the problem.

Vayne.8563:

Judge Banks.9018:

Vayne.8563:

Judge Banks.9018:

Guild Wars 2 Flat PvE Square miles = 58
Vanilla WoW Flat Square miles = 80

Using the same methods found in this infograph
Which spawned from this thread

Do note that this simply a flat surface measurement.

Relevance?

To the back and forth kitten posting between you and devata, none.

To those discussing the world size, project size, and whatever worthless derailment they can attempt to grasp at, a small reminder.

So, aside from map size, how many quests did vanilla WoW launch with? Because Guild Wars 2 is much bigger in that sense with over 1500 dynamic events, at least 50 personal story quests per character, 300 hearts.

There is so much more content in Guild Wars 2 than there was in vanilla WoW it’s not even funny.

I understand that Judge Banks sees a relevance as in how big the project was (because we said we did not have the numbers) but because WoW was a sub-based model it’s not really an interesting comparison.

More interesting would be GW1 vs GW2 or maybe also other games like GTA or games closer to the size of GW2 and then also taking the servers into account.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

chemiclord.3978:

~

But you don’t really know that would be enough money to support a game today. You only suspect that would be enough money. And I suspect it wouldn’t be.

It’s nice to theorize that if a company did that, they’d manage to stay afloat, but I’m guessing that if you were putting up your millions and millions of dollars to make a game, you might put a cash shop there….just in case.

Gambling with other people’s money is easy.

If it would be my money I would want to also create a good name for myself so deliver a high-quality product and so would go for expansion-based model. But thats not really the question, is it.

And yes I do think it would work and base my idea partly on GW1 partly on the many non-MMORPG games that use such models.

You think it won’t work and based your idea on the fact that the marked is bigger and many MMO’s are using F2P.

In the end we indeed both don’t have factual numbers to back it up, so it’s kind of useless to keep arguing about that.

Yet I am happy to see that at least we seem to agree that quality wise a micro-transaction based game is not the best option.

I don’t agree on that at all. We never talked about quality specifically. I don’t think you can blame all the woes of this game on the cash shop. Some, maybe. But I don’t think it’s any worse than a subscription based games.

Other games in other genres have no bearing on this conversation. They make a game, they put the game out, and that’s pretty much it. The staff afterwards is miniscule.

Take a driving game. YOu make the game, people buy it. Very often it is a console AND computer game. You sell to everyone and the sales cover the cost of making the game. But most games take far less time and money to make than an MMO aned most games have far last after cost…that’s why other games that use the model are useless to compare. And even Guild Wars 1 wasn’t a true MMO. How much different is it? How much more server power do you need to have 100 people all playing at the same time? Because you didn’t really have this problem in Guild Wars 1. I mean you could get 100 people in cities, but generally they couldn’t use their skills there.

I think that I’ve seen games that have a model like you’re talking about that sucked badly. So should I then conclude that all games that work on selling boxes every few years suck badly.

Dragon Age was a great game. Dragon Age 2…not so much. Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 were great games. Mass Effect 3, not so much.

Making game sequels or adds on and selling them doesn’t mean making a better game.

If I were making a game today, I’d want it funded so I could do great things. I don’t think the model you’re suggesting would fund an MMO…not enough to push the boundaries….which costs money.

I was mainly referring to this statement of you.

Vayne.8563:

For everyone person who takes games seriously, there’s someone who thinks that taking out your credit card is a valid way to play. More to the point, younger generations of players are trained this way.

Both of my sons, in their 20s, think nothing of taking out a credit card to buy stuff to use inside a game, instead of “earning” it, which is what I prefer to do.

I think you’ll find that the shift is toward people buying wins, not away from it. More’s the shame.

Vayne.8563:

You’d not only have to convince a company that this could work but the company would have to convince investors that this would work. The problem with that is no one is doing it. The first question an investor would ask is why.

Well I guess in a way thats exactly what I (and a few other) ar then doing in this thread.

Why, because you can deliver a higher quality product what will improve your name in the business (so people truss your company better so are more likely to buy another game of you) and when done right it will give a more steady flow of income over a much longer period.

It’s not like squeezing out money and going to the next game isn’t without risk. If two games in a row fail the company might be in big financial problems.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

chemiclord.3978:

I think what Vayne is getting at here is that you’re NEVER going to see an MMO solely run off an expansion model again (and even by the end of GW1 it was running a cash shop as well). It’s going to be tied with something else that will provide you with a more stable and constant revenue stream. And I’d argue it has to… the cost of making a game has gone up nigh exponentially, and requires much larger staffs to accomplish what the player base demands.

So the question now becomes, “what constant stream do you prefer”, because each one has their strengths and weaknesses. It’s not “cash store or expansion” because pretty much EVERY MMO maker’s answer is going to be “Both.”

The question is “cash store or subscription?” And even THAT might not be accurate, because Activision/Blizzard answered THAT question with “Both” as well.

I know what Vayne is getting at but an expansion every year / year and a half is also a steady flow of income. In a way it’s even similar to a subscription based model because you can expect to pretty much having to pay an x amount every year / year and a half. Biggest difference is not having a timer over your head.

BTW having a cash-shop next to that that only sells some extra services like access to beta events and name changers and character slots would be fine. But the moment you are generating you main income from a cash-shop you really will have to try and get people to buy stuff from the cash-shop (by game-play tactics of specific items) and then it will effect the game.

Yes games have become much bigger but so have the communities. That levels each other out pretty well.

So no, I don’t believe it has to be sub or cash-shop but expansion-based won’t be an option. I think is very well is an option and I think there are enough games proving it is. It’s just not being used a lot in the MMORPG genre.

But you don’t really know that would be enough money to support a game today. You only suspect that would be enough money. And I suspect it wouldn’t be.

It’s nice to theorize that if a company did that, they’d manage to stay afloat, but I’m guessing that if you were putting up your millions and millions of dollars to make a game, you might put a cash shop there….just in case.

Gambling with other people’s money is easy.

If it would be my money I would want to also create a good name for myself so deliver a high-quality product and so would go for expansion-based model. But thats not really the question, is it.

And yes I do think it would work and base my idea partly on GW1 partly on the many non-MMORPG games that use such models.

You think it won’t work and based your idea on the fact that the marked is bigger and many MMO’s are using F2P.

In the end we indeed both don’t have factual numbers to back it up, so it’s kind of useless to keep arguing about that.

Yet I am happy to see that at least we seem to agree that quality wise a micro-transaction based game is not the best option.

IndigoSundown.5419:

chemiclord.3978:

I think what Vayne is getting at here is that you’re NEVER going to see an MMO solely run off an expansion model again (and even by the end of GW1 it was running a cash shop as well). It’s going to be tied with something else that will provide you with a more stable and constant revenue stream. And I’d argue it has to… the cost of making a game has gone up nigh exponentially, and requires much larger staffs to accomplish what the player base demands.

So the question now becomes, “what constant stream do you prefer”, because each one has their strengths and weaknesses. It’s not “cash store or expansion” because pretty much EVERY MMO maker’s answer is going to be “Both.”

The question is “cash store or subscription?” And even THAT might not be accurate, because Activision/Blizzard answered THAT question with “Both” as well.

I agree. Making games may be a passion as well as a job for game developers, but for the backers, it’s a way of making money. We can debate all we want about the value inherent in subscription, B2P+expansion, B2P+shop or F2P. That doesn’t change the fact that the companies behind the developer have one goal, and the developer will be nudged to whichever model looks more profitable.

Since virtual items in cash shops sell, the more profitable model will most likely include a shop. I expect that if GW2 were to sell expansions, the game would still include a shop. Blizz has a sub, a shop, and charges for expansions, after all.

Given that shops are not going away, I believe the best we as consumers can expect is a shop that does not sell in-game advantages. On that front, the GW2 shop has done pretty well. If you aren’t selling in-game power, pretty much the only things left to sell are cosmetics and convenience, and for the most part, that’s what we get.

Like I said before. I do think there is still a market for the B2P+expansion and it would also be interested for a company when it’s looking for long-term income in stead of fast money.

About the way a cash-shop works. You say this is the best but it’s just where you are coming from. You might not might that GW2 is extremely money driven gold gold gold and collecting mini’s ingame is not really a option. But for people who like exactly that part of the game it is.

nightwulf.1986:

Devata.6589:

The expansion model can not be compared to a VCR, thats just silly.
For non MMORPG it’s also today the most used model (I count a game that releases a new version every 2 years in stead of a expansions also in the same model because it’s very similar)
{snip}
And nobody here was asking for a subscription based model, but I guess you refer to that because the question to pretty much have anything in-game. And you are right thats not possible with a F2P model, only with subscription or expansion-based model. Thats also why just suggestion improvements for the micro-transaction based model will simply not work.

To that first statement, if you are excluding cell phone games for a reason, please elaborate. One of the biggest single player and multi-player, non-mmo consumer base expansions into the videogame market (a.k.a. cell phone games) has adopted the microtransaction model almost as a standard across the board. Not to mention that many of those non-mmo games that don’t primarily use microtransactions have adopted the DLC model which is meant to support the game beyond the standard expansion model. Often times creating content which consumers believe to be far less than an expansion, and yet still finds some financial success. That is to say, I disagree with the premises on which you base using non-mmorpg games as a golden example of a working model for an expansion only game that you keep referring to. Even traditionally “expansion only” games like Tekken, Dead or Alive, and Soul Calibur are experimenting with moving into the microtransaction funded model and, so far, it appears that they are finding success with people supporting them. Times are changing and even that market has new competition in payment models.

And to this second point, some people in this thread have said as much that they wanted to move on to a subscription game because they feel that it offers them pros and cons that they prefer to deal with over those of a B2P/F2P. And again, it’s already been argued that the subscription game model and expansion models have variations from company to company and other drawbacks to them, just as a free to play model does and can negatively impact the gameplay and community as well. That is not to say that it is all negative, but I still feel like you are pushing the expansion model as an objectively better choice when it clearly isn’t. I think someone said it earlier, and I agree, but what I think you are really hoping for is for a company who doesn’t have a profit motive behind their design choices. Because with that, you can have an awesome free to play model, subscription model, etc. that doesn’t negatively impact the game in the ways you describe. It’s just, well, that I feel it’s unlikely you are going to find these choices implemented in the manner you describe in any company/publisher who’s not willing to take a big risk. Ideally, the company would just create a game that has an awesome story and gameplay and you can play for an unlimited amount of time without having to worry about spending money. But they have to get your money to keep going, and however they implement it, someone, maybe not you, isn’t going to like it.

Yeah companies might indeed be using the the F2P model because they see they can squeeze out most money in the easiest way. So from an financial viewpoint it might be a good idea.

Expansion based model would be less good as doing that so from a short-run financial viewpoint that might be less interesting. But it not that I am searching for a company that wants to create a good game but non-profit. The big difference in my opinion is the life-spawn. I think expansion-based models have potentially a higher life-spawn.

So what I am indeed then looking for is a company that wants to create a high quality product and whats that product to keep the company running for many years but is not just looking for fast money in the short run.

Thats also why I said that maybe a lessen learned is that when ever looking for another game it might be wise to see if a game belongs and it paid by one and the same company.

Looking at the games that manage to set up long-running MMO’s that seem to be a good idea. Eve-online is developed and published by the same company, WoW and Lineage 2 is (Ncsoft funny enough).

So it’s not that I want a company that is not looking for money but I might indeed need a company that is not just looking for the quick money. And while I think Anet might not be the problem here, Ncsoft might be.

And as long as there are a lot of people that are letting themselves being fooled in buying some useless items ingame there will indeed be a big market for that. But that does not mean there is no market for for expansion-based games.

chemiclord.3978:

I think what Vayne is getting at here is that you’re NEVER going to see an MMO solely run off an expansion model again (and even by the end of GW1 it was running a cash shop as well). It’s going to be tied with something else that will provide you with a more stable and constant revenue stream. And I’d argue it has to… the cost of making a game has gone up nigh exponentially, and requires much larger staffs to accomplish what the player base demands.

So the question now becomes, “what constant stream do you prefer”, because each one has their strengths and weaknesses. It’s not “cash store or expansion” because pretty much EVERY MMO maker’s answer is going to be “Both.”

The question is “cash store or subscription?” And even THAT might not be accurate, because Activision/Blizzard answered THAT question with “Both” as well.

I know what Vayne is getting at but an expansion every year / year and a half is also a steady flow of income. In a way it’s even similar to a subscription based model because you can expect to pretty much having to pay an x amount every year / year and a half. Biggest difference is not having a timer over your head.

BTW having a cash-shop next to that that only sells some extra services like access to beta events and name changers and character slots would be fine. But the moment you are generating you main income from a cash-shop you really will have to try and get people to buy stuff from the cash-shop (by game-play tactics of specific items) and then it will effect the game.

Yes games have become much bigger but so have the communities. That levels each other out pretty well.

So no, I don’t believe it has to be sub or cash-shop but expansion-based won’t be an option. I think is very well is an option and I think there are enough games proving it is. It’s just not being used a lot in the MMORPG genre.

Vayne.8563:

Devata, casual players often don’t have time to work for stuff in game and WANT to buy it.

You keep saying there are more casual players in the game than hard core players. I agree with that. But many casual players really don’t want to grind. As much as I play I’m more of a casual player than you’d think. I care more about minis and cosmetic stuff than I do about stats, and always have.

But I don’t want to be stuck running the same content over and over to get it, because that’s not fun for me.

I spent a boatload of time running Bogroot Growths in Guild Wars 1 for a Frog Scepter. I never got one. Never. Talk about a waste of time.

And many casual players can’t compete with time but by the same token, many have jobs and can compete with money.

But taking those things out of the cash shop, I’m guessing you’d inconvenience more casual players than you’d help.

Getting those items now is indeed buying or grinding by doing the same thing over and over again (grinding gold or grinding temporary available achievements).

Yes casual players might play less hours but they still want to play the game don’t they? Buying an item is not playing, it’s not having fun. It’s nice to then have the items but that’s it. The main reason they would buy imho is because they want that mini and indeed don’t have the option to get it because it will be gone soon (as why we see the many temporary available items.. the monetize team does know exactly what they are doing) or because they need to grind grind and grind even more gold to get them, for every mini pretty much the same content but never going for the mini directly.

That will work but only to a point where people start to get annoyed by it and stop doing it.

When collecting mini’s that are in the world it does not feel dull.. Yeah for sure if one mini requires you to kill one type of mob in one area for +- 5000 times then that gets very boring. But then you kill it 100 times and then go for another mini that requires other ways to get it and when you up to it then you return back to that ‘5000 kills mini’.

Once you then indeed do get the mini you want you will have this epic feeling of getting it and are very proud to have it. A feeling you will never get from buying it.

So yes casual gamers have less time but the time they are online they want to play. Not buy the collections.. thats not fun, is it? Going into the world to collect them is the fun “playing” many are looking for imho. And it would also mean Anet has enough time to create there expansion because collecting the mini’s will keep people busy for a long time.

One again.. I use mini’s here as an example for many item.. but you know that by now

Vayne.8563:

I think my point here and I’ve made it elsewhere as well….the entire industry has changed. Expectations of the playerbase has changed. More is demanded now.

If you add all all the voice acting in Prophecies and compare it with all the voice acting in Guild Wars 2, you’d find Guild Wars 2 had TONS more voice acting that Prophecies, which is massively expensive. The cost of making games today is higher than it was years ago.

Guild Wars 1 had a staff of 50. Guild Wars 2 has a staff of over 300. It meant moving to bigger digs, probably with higher rent.

There is also a bigger audience (thats the main reason the gaming industry changed) so that levels each other out pretty well one would think.

Vayne.8563:

So today, due to cost, every game has to do something to be competitive. What works eight years ago isn’t likely to work today. Buy to play in a time when everyone is charging subs, is very different from buy to play at a time when there are dozens of free to play MMOs floating around.

There are indeed many F2P models. Thats exactly why a expansion-based model could work. Those who don’t like the quality or F2P games but also don’t like a timer over there head (sub-based) will go to the ‘real’ B2P game. Thats the main reason I did come to GW2 but sadly enough I did then see GW2 also turn into a micro-transaction based model and so getting the same problems as all the F2P games have.

Vayne.8563:

You need more content faster, or you lose the low attention span crowd and the content burners.

People who want a deeper game are going to have problems moving forward in general I think.

Wait you are basically saying here. ‘Yes you are right, the quality does suffer from it. But heey thats how the world works today, learn to life with it’.

Well it’s nice that you agree but I am not the sort of person who watches things become worse and then does not say anything about it or does try to do anything about it. Even if it’s something small like making this thread.

I am glad to see that we do agree on the fact that it effects the way but I we disagree on the idea of waving the white flag. I’m not willing to.

Even if this game does not change and a ‘developer’ from another game reads this and decide to give that the expansion-based model a try for his upcoming MMORPG and thats a success then this thread has a positive effect. But I would prefer it if GW2 made the needed changes. But there will be no white flag here.

Rhyse.8179:

nightwulf.1986:

I mean, really, these arguments about how the cash shop affects GW2 would probably be better suited towards suggestions about how to improve it and improve your experience with it (as some people have been doing already) instead of the merits of an expansion only model. Or simply find a game with a subscription, because realistically, that seems to be the only real world analog to what some people seem to be asking for.

This is pretty much how I feel as well. I really don’t expect any of this discussion to have any relevance to the game now. It’s done; it’s not changing. At best, perhaps people from Anet will read it and try to minimize the areas we are complaining about when they develop future content. They haven’t given any reason so far to think that they will; we’ll see how this CDI thing turns out when there’s been a full dev cycle or two behind it. Here’s hoping, I guess.

But with this attitude you could just as well also not ask to improve the cash-shop (as far as thats even possible). Because it is the way it is.

Well I think thats the wrong attitude.

Like I said before, they promoted this game as B2P, they promoted this game as casual and they had a big name with expansion-based models. So then I think it’s fair to ask for what you might have expected. An expansion-based model. The might indeed not change it but at least they can not say that people never asked for it when things start to go downhill. And maybe, just maybe they will change it and turn this game into the right direction again. I really don’t see that happen as long as the main question for the monetize people is “how do we get them to buy gems” and that is the whole problem.

nightwulf.1986:

Vayne.8563:

Corpus Christi.2057:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Maybe, the model that ‘worked so good’ for GW1, was working because GW1 was a much smaller game, and a different kind of game. Maybe, having used that model before, ArenaNet has information (that we do not) indicating that model would not work so well with GW2. Maybe, as a compromise, they included the ‘gold-to-gem’ transaction method as a way to ‘marry’ the two. Maybe, they have a long-term plan we know nothing about. Maybe, as experienced game developers, they know more about the whole subject than we do.

Maybe, ….just maybe.

GW1 was by no means a smaller project than GW2.

The best idea is to launch GW1 and you will, de facto, feel how small GW2 feels compared to GW1.

Not to mention, quite off the topic, that GW1 is one of the best selling PC MMOs ( if I remember correctly, 2nd best selling MMO ) with over 8 mln copies sold.

Except that it wasn’t an MMO and launched at a time with no competition. If WoW launched today it wouldnt’ be what it is now. Neither would Guild Wars 1.

I’d have to agree with this statement if only because Jeff Strain basically said that they were positioning themselves in a market where they were the only big game in town not charging a subscription fee when they were launching Guild Wars 1. That just isn’t true today. The market is vastly different with MMOs that offer subscription only, subscription/cash shop, F2P/cash shop, and B2P/Cash shop. The numbers and what people find acceptable have changed. I mean, really, these arguments about how the cash shop affects GW2 would probably be better suited towards suggestions about how to improve it and improve your experience with it (as some people have been doing already) instead of the merits of an expansion only model. Or simply find a game with a subscription, because realistically, that seems to be the only real world analog to what some people seem to be asking for. With how payment models, customer perception, and MMOs have transformed, you may as well be asking for a VCR when everyone else is using blu-ray. Ain’t nothing wrong with a standard def VCR, but it’s a relic of a different era of experience and values.

The expansion model can not be compared to a VCR, thats just silly.
For non MMORPG it’s also today the most used model (I count a game that releases a new version every 2 years in stead of a expansions also in the same model because it’s very similar)

The whole idea of improvements for the cash-shop is nice. I also said that if you would only sell access to beta content and items like name-changers or character slots (so items that will not be from inside the world) you would not effect the game-play for anybody. However if the company generates there main income with only such items they won’t generate enough income. That would be nice as some extra income maybe next to a expansion-based model but won’t work as a main source of income.

The only way to make the cash-shop good enough to generate main income it will always effect some part of the player-base.

This game has been promoted and released as B2P (While at this moment it’s more micro-transaction based with the required to buy, but the main income is not from the box-sales so you can’t really call it just B2P anymore) and was released as a game for casual gamers (who usually like the things now most effect by the cash-shop focus) and came from a company that had a big name mainly because of there true B2P payment-model.. so expansion-based as we came to name it in this thread.

Then I think it’s a valid question to indeed rethink the cash-shop focus and switch to a expansion-based model.

And nobody here was asking for a subscription based model, but I guess you refer to that because the question to pretty much have anything in-game. And you are right thats not possible with a F2P model, only with subscription or expansion-based model. Thats also why just suggestion improvements for the micro-transaction based model will simply not work.

Justice.3608:

Hey Gaile,

Just want to let you know, for many others and myself this type of vertical progression is A-OK. It’s much better than say furthering item tiers with Ascended stats, which has a profound impact on WvW and how future PVE content will be designed.

Please ignore the vocal minority, as this new pick has literally ZERO pay2win impact, as it does not affect WvW/Dungeons/or Fractals in any way and gives people a good incentive to accumulate gold.

Look forward to seeing more exciting items in the gemshop.

Funny right. Thats what I was talking about before and in the micro-transaction thread.

It all depends on what is your personal game-play element. An MMORPG has so many it’s not one group of players with the same style.

The focus on the cash-shop has from day one been a problem for the more RPG players (those that like to go into the world to do quest, collect mini’s and so on). And for them it only became worse (big part of that group might have already left the game because of that reason, and that might also mean Anet did see sales on normal picks drops so went for the next step??).

This added stat to the pick hurts mainly the grinders. Those people who like to go in to the world and like to grind for materials and such.

But this does not yet hurt the combat. What is obviously Justice’s main game-play. He won’t lose a kill about it so it’s no problem for him. It would require real P2W items for him to get upset.

Oow and because it usually only hits only one group it always seems to hurt a minority. Except when you combine the groups.

The group thats best of in GW2 (at this moment) are the combat players and that might be the biggest group of players but at the same time it might also the group that (in general in GW2) buys the least items from the cash shop. What makes sense because all the stuff in there does not matter for there game-play.

I like to do all types of the game-play and many will but most people have the element they do or prefer most.

chemiclord.3978:

Corpus Christi.2057:

GW1 was by no means a smaller project than GW2.

The best idea is to launch GW1 and you will, de facto, feel how small GW2 feels compared to GW1.

Not to mention, quite off the topic, that GW1 is one of the best selling PC MMOs ( if I remember correctly, 2nd best selling MMO ) with over 8 mln copies sold.

Uh… yes… it was. GW1 was a LOT smaller project, in fact.

More goes into a game than just the “physical size” of the world (and even then, if you were to take off the rose-colored glasses, you’d discover Prophecies, which is the closest analogy to the base GW2 game, is smaller even on that score).

Arena.net increased their employment something like 500-600% for this game. It was a much larger investment in manpower, time, and size. To claim otherwise shows you have no idea what game development entails.

But like we said before the size does not really matter. Expansion based models (or models that look like it, like many non MMORPG games that release a new version ever 2 years) have proven to work for smaller and bigger and middle-size projects.

Because that’s what the whole “size of project” question was all about. Inculpatus cedo commented that maybe the model that worked so well for GW1 would not work for GW2 because GW2 was a bigger project. Then I did refer to some really big projects like GTA and Battlefield that use similar looking payment-models.

So the question if GW2 is a big project or not is not really the question anymore as that seems less relevant for the question how micro-transactions effect the game and how the expansion-based model might be better (in my view).

Suddenflame.2601:

Such long arguments without bringing up the main game that is the successful model of FTP with micro-transactions. The one game that has influenced and shown that FTP with micro-transactions is more profitable than Subcription and Expansion models.

League of Legends is the most played game in the world with more people spending money on it than World of Warcraft subscription model from what I read somewhere (if i can find that article i well post it).

We never said it would not be profitable and we did talk about how RPG game have many elements and thats why micro-transactions will always effect a MMORPG. So thats different with LoL. I don’t know enough about there cash-shop to go into details there.

Suddenflame.2601:

GW2 is using BTP with a microtransaction model. This means you have pay to play the game first than after that only items in the gem store are cosmetic or convenience items. Not sure why you guys are saying this is a bad model considering they are in no way forcing you to buy anything with real money from the gem store that you can not get inside of the game itself. There are 0 P2W items in the gem store to date.

P2W is “Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have the skill in the game without paying.” http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win

If you had read the thread you would have seen that it’s not about P2W but how a focus on micro-transactions (Also with NO P2W items) will effect the game (and depending on your play-style) in a negative way.

To stop the champ trains they would have to stop the high amount of world loot drop and make it all specific drops. One skin drops from a specific dungeon the other from a specific mob. Dyes would not be unidentified but just colors and many colors would also drop in specific places just like the skins.

This however would mean gold would be not as important as it is now.. where you pretty much need to buy what you want because you can not go for a specific dye or skin or whatever in the game.

But if gold is not so important anymore then there would be less reason for people to buy gems to convert them to gold, what brings us to the point why it is the way it is. So as long as Anet makes there money mainly from cash-shops I don’t see this happen.. or well maybe it gets replaces by another grind.
Have a read here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/A-focus-on-micro-transactions/page/3#post3586850

Especially this reaction: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/A-focus-on-micro-transactions/page/2#post3586647 and the two below it. Where I basically refer to this sort of threads.

I am gonna change the question a little bid and then answer it

“What would GW2 be like with more specific roles.”

Like the Wintersday Snowball Mayhem.

Now it’s up to you to decide what type of combat you prefer.

Vayne, I want to show you something.

In the last CDI (Horizontal progression) he had been talking about multiple ways of horizontal progression. One of the things that came up where the hunt for ranger pets. When talking about that I was searching for some examples and came across this website. http://www.wow-petopia.com/browse/browse.html

It’s a whole site purely dedicated to ranger pets in WoW. And much is purely about the a different skin and it then tells you where to get them. While many of those pets just have the same stats.

It does proof that there is a very very big player-base interested in exactly this sort of activity. Not just stats but hunting down rare or fun or cool or full collections of items or in this case ranger pets. A pink moa might not be any stronger then a yellow moa but still some people might want that pink moa because it’s pink or because it’s rare or whatever. That is there idea of fun. That is there game-play. For some it’s about stats for some it’s about these sort of things.

And trust me, if many people really think skins are just crap Anet would not be selling enough of it so that also proofs it’s more then just extra junk. But after some time people will get burned out of grinding gold and buying the rare / cool looking skin/ mini / dye (they might be already seeing that now and that might be the reason to now add stats to items). Thats also why I said this might be a good tactic to squeeze out money now and then move on to the next game, but that it’s not a good tactic for the long run.

Vayne.8563:

I would have no problem if they offered specific drops from specific bosses, like they did in Guild Wars 1. There are some in the game, but not nearly enough. Same with minis. You can get a rare chance for a Tequatl mini by doing Tequatl. You can get a rare chance at a clockwork moa by doing the new Marionette event. There have been plenty of minis in the game already that you can win.

What you want isn’t realistic. I want a game where they keep giving me content, for which I don’t really have a cash shop that sells stuff that people might want, and I want it in such a way where I can play this specific way. Do this one thing to farm for that one thing.

It’s nice that you want this, but it’s really too specific a request in my opinion. I think your cash shop desires, in particularly, are completely unreasonable. It seems the community, for the most part, in any game or board I’ve ever seen, has agreed only cosmetic stuff should be in the cash shop.

This isn’t some small thing I made up, it’s been discussed to death. For any company to go against that grain and give you stats instead of skins, would immediately label them pay to win.

If you would have read the thread you would have seen I did refer to those few that are in the game. Saying they should all be in the game like that.

“What you want isn’t realistic. — think your cash shop desires, in particularly, are completely unreasonable.”

Oow it’s very realistic but not when they focus on a cash-shop / micro-transactions as income.. That might be the reason why in this thread I say that is bad and that they should focus on expansions for income? I don’t desire anything from the cash-shop. I desire that they use expansions to generate income not a cash-shop because a cash-shop will always influence the game itself.
Like I did show in the examples and I have the feeling you do now understand. Even do it might not be a problem for your personal game-play.

“It seems the community, for the most part, in any game or board I’ve ever seen, has agreed only cosmetic stuff should be in the cash shop.”
I have to disagree. There are enough people complaining about things that are very much related to the way the cash-shop works now. One of the many complains you hear is “grind grind grind” and that can very much be related to this “cosmetic cash-shop”. Also the complain about no end-game.. For some that might be raids but for enough people it’s the things I talk about.. hunting for items. So many of those complains are indirect complains toward this “cosmetic cash-shop”.

“This isn’t some small thing I made up, it’s been discussed to death. For any company to go against that grain and give you stats instead of skins, would immediately label them pay to win.”
Of course it would. You don’t hear me saying they should do that.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

@ Rhyse

So let’s look at your list of pretty bad things. Let’s start with dyes.

There are 400 dyes in this game. 400. There are dyes like Abyss which is black black and would cost you over 30 gold on the TP right now. But just black dye (which IS black) and I use is only 8 gold or 8 dungeon runs to unlock it on a character.

For me the fun would then be going into the world doing that dungeon or quest or whatever to get that black or Abyss dye.

That’s my idea of fun. Not going into the world, finding a way to grind gold and then use the gold to buy the item and then do the same for the next color (or mini, or kin) and again for the next item and again for the next item and so on and so on, not to forget to grind all temporary achievements to make sure I do not miss out on a item.

No, going for the item specific (at my own time) and every item has it’s own way. That is what I like to do. Thats my idea of fun, that my game-play element and thats impossible because of the design that things “how do we get people to buy gems”, “well not by making everything available in the game”.

With the skin, if I see a cool skin (personally for ME collecting all skins would not be a game-play element.. for somebody else it might be!) the my idea of fun would indeed be again the same as I just explained with the other items. Going into the world and find it. Not coming to the conclusion it’s not available anymore or having to buy with real money it or having to grind gold to buy it. Thats not fun to me.

But you get tons of dye drops just playing… and some of those might be those colors. I have gotten both black and abyss dye drops. You dont’ have to buy them. You can play to get them.

So I’m not sure what the complaint is about here. I mean in guild wars 1, dyes were in a similar situation. They’d drop randomly anywhere in the world…but you could also go to a dye trader and buy them.

Dyes indeed drop anywhere. It was also just one of the examples. Dyes are still not fun for me because like I said ‘I like to go and hunt for the item I want’, that is my game-play. That is not possible with open world loot drops.

You will always have some open world loot in games but it takes away part of the fun. In GW2 however many thinks are open-world drops. Meaning you can’t really farm for anything meaning it all becomes a gold grind. You grind gold (by getting world loot drop you don’t want and selling it) and then buy what you want. Making gold more important meaning people are more likely to buy gems to convert them to gold. (See the connection here)

Well thats not my type of game-play. My type of game-play if going for that one item that I want (so not cash-shop item, no open world loot, just one item in one specific place). Being it a specific dye color or a specific mini or a specific skin or a specific mount or a specific crafting recipe.

Now that might not be where your interest is but I think it’s hard to deny that that element is pretty much gone in GW2 and you might also see how the cash-shop has much to do with that.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

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So the minis in WoW, subscription cash shop and the mounts aren’t fair game? Because that seems to be what you’re saying.

Whatever subscription games are left are also getting cash shops now and putting that very stuff in cash shops. Are there any purely subscription games out right now that don’t have cash shops.

Stuff likes mounts and minis and skins…that was always supposed to be what a not P2W cash shop is. Why? Because they offer no power.

For weeks and months before the game came out, in every speculation thread I can remember, everyone said cosmetic items are fine. Minis are fine. No one lifted a finger against them.

WoW charges fifteen bucks a month and still has mounts and minis that people would have to buy if they wanted them. Rift is free to play now, because it couldn’t sustain a sub. SWTOR has a hybrid model that’s greedy as hell but still allows you to sub. Eve has a sub and a cash shop…with cosmetic items.

If sub games can have cosmetic items in their shops, why shouldn’t a buy to play game? And what would they have if not cosmetic items.

Do you realize the outcry that you’d here if they put gear with stats in the cash shop?

I indeed think they should especially in a game with a subscription not put that in a cash-shop but like I also said before. If there would be like 10 mini’s in the cash-shop you would not hear me complain I can life with that. I don’t know how many are in the cash-shop but I do know by far most are in the game. So if it comes to the way to get mini’s then I guess WoW wins this match.

“Stuff likes mounts and minis and skins…that was always supposed to be what a not P2W cash shop is. Why? Because they offer no power.”
However, the casual or more RPG players (not the combat player) is not looking for power but for mounts, mini’s skins. So just as the combat player would not like a cash-shop to interfere in the combat (there game-play) a RPG player would not want the cash-shop to interfere with there game-play.

“For weeks and months before the game came out, in every speculation thread I can remember, everyone said cosmetic items are fine. Minis are fine. No one lifted a finger against them.” Well I do and I know many people who like to collect such items don’t like it. The fact that many people said “if it does not add power it’s ok” might be because a lot of ‘combat players’ had been bothered with P2W elements in many other games so they say as long as it’s not P2W it’s fine. Thats nice for them but not for the other type of players.

I did go for GW2 because it was B2P and it had a name of mainly focusing on expansions for sales with GW1. Because I don’t like cash-shop because they always effect the game. Sadly GW2 then turned out to also be a cash-shop game but one you had to buy into.

So you are now referring to other cash-shop and how they also do the same. While some of them in much less quantities. I really think the WoW cash-shop does not add that much because it are just a few items (just when to have a look on the there site) and the game also not seems to be trying to get you to buy anything from it. But yes many cash-shop do that, some more, some less. Thats maybe the reason I don’t like cash-shops???

“Do you realize the outcry that you’d here if they put gear with stats in the cash shop?”
Yes I do realize that very much. Because then suddenly all the combat players get exactly the same problem as the casual / RPG players already have. So that group suddenly also starts complaining.

Same as why now suddenly many people are complaining about the pick. The people for who’s grinding is the game-play are now suddenly also hit by it so that group started to complain about it.

Vayne.8563:

@ Rhyse

So let’s look at your list of pretty bad things. Let’s start with dyes.

There are 400 dyes in this game. 400. There are dyes like Abyss which is black black and would cost you over 30 gold on the TP right now. But just black dye (which IS black) and I use is only 8 gold or 8 dungeon runs to unlock it on a character.

For me the fun would then be going into the world doing that dungeon or quest or whatever to get that black or Abyss dye.

That’s my idea of fun. Not going into the world, finding a way to grind gold and then use the gold to buy the item and then do the same for the next color (or mini, or kin) and again for the next item and again for the next item and so on and so on, not to forget to grind all temporary achievements to make sure I do not miss out on a item.

No, going for the item specific (at my own time) and every item has it’s own way. That is what I like to do. Thats my idea of fun, that my game-play element and thats impossible because of the design that things “how do we get people to buy gems”, “well not by making everything available in the game”.

With the skin, if I see a cool skin (personally for ME collecting all skins would not be a game-play element.. for somebody else it might be!) the my idea of fun would indeed be again the same as I just explained with the other items. Going into the world and find it. Not coming to the conclusion it’s not available anymore or having to buy with real money it or having to grind gold to buy it. Thats not fun to me.

Vayne.8563:

Guild Wars 2 has a cash shop and that cash shop offers mostly crap…and mostly crap you don’t need. Does it matter that there’s new minis in the cash shop? Well, not unless you’re a mad addicted mini collector. Does it matter if there’s a new weapon skin or new armor skin…not really, it’s a skin. You can play the game without the skin and there are nice looking armor sets in game that you can get. Your game isn’t depending on having THAT specific skin.

Vayne, you are now only looking at it from your personal perspective. You say “what is in the cash-shop is crap” because you think so. I personally don’t try to always get the BIS item (strongest) because I don’t care about that so much. I would not agree if they put that in the cash-shop but for me personally it probably would not hurt me much, while it might hurt you (reading what you consider bad).

“Does it matter that there’s new minis in the cash shop? Well, not unless you’re a mad addicted mini collector.”
Yes it does for many casual gamers (thats how they promoted this game right). It has nothing to do with an addiction. In many MMO’s going into the world and doing dungeons, doing quest, doing crafts where you could create mini’s, killing mobs and so on to get those mini’s is what I do as game-play. Thats how I play an MMORPG. Not by trying to get the highest AP, Not by tring to get the most kills in PvP.
Fun thing about that is that it would let you do every aspect of the game because every mini (or whatever item) would require another way to get them but that would them simply be the road to get it for me. While the dungeon for you maybe is the goal itself.

That IS my game-play. That is what I prefer to do in a MMORPG. Collecting mini’s, finding rare items, collecting mounts. That’s what the game is to me. It might not be what the game is for you, for you mini’s and such are just crap items that don’t add anything to the game (because they don’t higher your stats) but for the people who like the RPG element of this MMORPG that is very much part of the game-play.

Thats now all grind grind grind or buy, so the cash-shop destroys that part of the game it’s as simple as that.

Arghore.8340:

No i don’t agree with that point of view. In a game that has no expansions or subscription and thus has to have a cash-shop. You add things to the game that add value to the game, and have value to the players. And offer ways to pay ‘you’ back for it.

Yeah you are completely right. Thats why I also say this (a cash-shop as income) is bad.

When you rely on a cash-shop you need to add such things and that on it’s turns has a negative effect of the game..

And again not so much the individual item but the effect of the focus on getting people to buy it. That can be by making the items of a certain value (for some people) or putting in specific game-mechanics but however you do that it always effects the game and imo not in a good way. But like I said that also depends on the type of content you play.

People who just do PvP don’t have much to complain about if it comes to this for example. A way to get them to buy items would be to put P2W items in the cash-shop.

Arghore.8340:

That way every release becomes a mini-expansion. A mini expansion that you can choose to pay for to get even more out of it.

If you would have both all those ‘mini expansions’ how much money would you have paid by now? No sorry, I can not see it a a mini expansion people choose to pay for or not.