Guild Wars 2

darkace.8925:

Peppit.9057:

Secondly, I think that gaining items through the open world is an excellent idea but it is also a golden opportunity to add housing items to existing trade-skills, for example, armorsmiths could create decorative suits of armor, tailors could create cushions, beds, etc. These items could then be a way for these trade-skills to make a profit. In addition to this, consider allowing people to add crafting stations to their houses, which would add utility.

I’d personally rather have a full-fledged furniture-crafting craft utilizing wood, metal, leather, and cloth to make furniture of all types and qualities (tiers) than to see existing crafts try to fill our home-furnishing needs. Such a craft could also make bags in the same vein as the armor-making crafts (a “soulbound items go here” or “consumable items go here” bag would be most welcome).

When housing would come in yeah then this would also be a gread addition as a ‘fun craft’.

VOLKON.1290:

Devata.6589:

VOLKON.1290:

I still think for player housing we should consider that the Consortium has a lot of real estate for sale in Southsun… just saying. The karka could be pushed back from the north, the area developed and there you go. Of course… there’s always the risk that the karka try and reclaim their lost lands in the future… could be event-full.

Open world housing like that would indeed be fun in your case with a PvE element where the karka can attack. However, the place you are referring to would be to small.

I don’t know how much space would need but I think it’s a least 3 maps fully dedicated to it. Plus I would then also give the option for PvP maps for housing so guild can fight over land and members can build there house on that land. That adds something for the people who like PvP.

Unless there was a full town type of structure there with a variety of homes to select from and once you “owned” one the interior was more of a personal instance. May the artists forgive me, but say there were 20 different styles of houses there for sale, you’d buy one and get the key to access it. They could even steal a little Timelord technology and make them bigger on the inside.

Could work but would also take something away from the feeling of your personal house. You now see 20 people entering ‘your’ house.

Nike.2631:

Morrigan.2809:

Both the Norn and the Charr would see it as an insult to ride a mount because it implies they are to weak to use their legs…

Norn have a mount already. It takes up their elite skill slot and its called ‘Become Snow Leopard’.

Which actually suggest a workable trade-off for mounts that doesn’t completely short-change people who are already built for sustained speed buffs. Go look up the Superior Rune of the Traveler on the Trading Post – people are willing to pay big gold and a hefty opportunity cost for what “mounts” would typically provide…

If mounts were Elite skills that worked like signets that gave an out-of-combat-ONLY passive speed buff (likely no greater than the +33% we know the system can handle now…), you might be able to build a reasonable argument for their inclusion being horizontal. Trade-off is if you get into a fight with a mount slotted, you’re not running an Elite for the duration of that fracas. You could collect/earn mounts and then slot them when you want to use them.

It would take away the game element of collecting them in the world. So while it would be nice next to it I would not use it as the only system. BTW like that Asura have the Golem mount.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

DarksunG.9537:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They were variable and new, in they aren’t always up and in the same place.

If that’s what we call variable then we’re in worse shape than I thought. When I say variable I mean: There are 4 different outcomes to a fight with one of these guys: 2 win 2 lose. branching various outcomes where you chase the defeated foe, fight back-up, take him to a cell while attacked etc etc.. I shouldn’t know how it will end when I win or lose.

Well it is variable, just not the same way you meant it. Should have tacked “outcome” after it, and I’d have known what you meant.

Variable outcome events are an interesting proposal, and it might work to freshen things up. I’d also like the ending outcome to check whether players were even present for the event so something different happens if nobody contested it at all versus just not managing to beat it.

But i’ll save this whole conversation for if they do a CDI on events. I think it’ll be better received there and I’ll get a chance to get my wits and notes together. (Because, frankly, my mind isn’t on the events right now, but on the rewards/progression associated with them. Something which also needs brushing up but . . . as AB says, “That’s another show”)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I loved Lost Shores. It was a lot of fun. Half my guild liked it too when we tried it. We were the lucky ones. For every person who enjoyed it and participated, I’d say four more got stuck in “Overflow City” where events were out of sync, where lag was atrocious, and disconnections were common.

yeah but equating how they should design game fun & progression based on tech is… ehhh… i dunno..

I think it’s very simple. If people can’t play in an event or something because of technical issues, it is not fun. Bluntly, Lost Shores wound up being a stress test of live servers and they probably got a lot of good information on what those systems could handle that weekend.

I would kind of like to see what it would have been if it had been designed as a Living Story chapter in scope (that is, over two weeks and with the big events as instanced things you could enter) as opposed to “one time only event open to everyone who can cram into Lion’s Arch”.

Probably would have gone over better.

Also, and to a lesser extent, if the tech/software isn’t able to produce progression as desired, it needs to be known why and if it can be fixed. If it can’t be fixed then one or the other needs to get changed so it works. That is an engineering decision only the people who are actually looking at the whole of the data can make, not us the end users.

In any case, I agree mostly with your point. Much similar, I’d like to see more DEs, and I’d like to see more diversity in them, and while I’m at it I’d like to see a catapult which fires asura. (I’ll settle for two out of three here.)

(Disclaimer: The last may not be an opinion you hold, or dare say publicly but don’t worry about it.)

Yes and no. Doing it in an instance would feel not as world changing as it did with the open world event. But they should indeed make a better system. The idea was great but the fact that it did only happen at once specific time was a problem.

We already have an overflow system. Maybe work with server before and after the change and have an event running every hour for 24 hours. When you log in and you did not have the event yet you will be put in a overflow that will soon start with the event.

In addition I would record the first event per server. Literally record it. Then put that in some log-file you can see back. The people that where there might even see them-self. That would really give the feeling of being part of it.

Then after such a event leave behind content.

I would love that.. You have a living world indeed where you see things change but no temporary achievements or rewards. That stuff is all added after the change.

In a way Karka invasion and then going to the island is how imho the LS should have been. Of course there where some technical difficulties that have to been solved.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

Here is the proposal I believe we are making, please discuss and let me know if anything should be added or removed. Note many of us have read the thread internally and thus there has already been valuable impact.

Our Horizontal Progression Proposal

The Reward and Associated Journey

— Sociopolitical Diversification: Player housing (Customizable from rewards gained in the open world), Guild Halls (Customizable from mass play rewards) and Map Wide Meta events unlocked through Faction progression (Leading to both individual and group rewards such as titles and skins)

— Role Diversification: ‘Grail Quest’ (Personal rights of passage) style adventures through the open world (testing the player in combat, discovery, and puzzle solving) which others can engage in once the activities are activated which could reward the Hero with New skills/traits, new weapons, access to inaccessible existing weapons, and infusions.

— Hero Recognition (Reward) is a by product of the above two types of Horizontal Progression leading to Unique Skins, Titles, Rewards, followers and NPC reactions/opportunities based on the players individual feats in the world of Tyria regardless of how he/she chooses to play the game.

Global Rule Proposal governing the above:

- Where possible use the above design paradigm to reinforce and evolve the existing world.
- Players should be able to have multiple methods of achieving ‘Grail Quests’, rather than a section of the journey being based on Jumping Puzzles and that alone for example.
-A reworked (cleaner) version of Signet of Capture would work very well for Role Diversification.
- Sub-classes will be discussed again in a CDI once Arena finishes its current balance work in regard to roles.
- QOL features such as a wardrobe should support this global design.

Once we have discussed the proposal and the thread reaches conclusion we will sticky it and move onto CDI Process Evolution Phase 2.

Note this is the formulation of a collaborative proposal for discussion. Once the proposal is finalized it will be discussed internally. However there will be no promise of associated actions or schedule.

Thank you all so much for your hard work and your passion toward making GW2 awesome. This has been a really good CDI and I want to thank you on behalf of Arena for caring so much about the world we love.

Chris

Bump. The following reminder added:

Note this is the formulation of a collaborative proposal for discussion. Once the proposal is finalized it will be discussed internally. However there will be no promise of associated actions or schedule.

Chris

I did react on it but you might have missed it because you Bump?

Anyway, here it is again.

Add the more RP elements. As being discussed also on this moment.

Make collecting mini’s more of a play element (so put them really in the game behind bosses, dungeons, drops from group of people) add in other items in a similar way (fun items, recipe’s even dyes and if we ever get them mounts).

Make collecting ranger pets more a play element by making it more dynamic, puting also rare pets in the game.

Fun crafts.. see the man suggestions on the last 2 pages. Where you also really have to go into the world to get your stuff (not from a gold or other currency grind). Fun crafts should also be fun from level 1 to max if they even work with levels.

Lastly, make exploring the world a journey / a quest where you also meed and learn NPC’s. Not a list of locations to cross of your list.

I think that are some important RP-elements for horizontal progression that also many casual players will love.

Morrigan.2809:

Devata.6589:

Morrigan.2809:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

timmyf.1490:

~

Hi TimmyF,

I agree:

‘As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.’

Chris

Mmm I love exploring but I also have limited time- so when I am in the mood, sure I ignore way points and explore- that happens more than you would think.

I do sometimes want to maximize my time and make use of the way points I have unlocked to hit events in far flung locations though.

What I Absulotely do not want to do, is to spend my 1 hour play time running to where I want to be- I want to get there and play.

thing is I have a choice now you see?

It’s not so much a choice because walking is not a viable option. It just takes way to long. Now with mounts it would indeed be more of an option. Just reducing the number of way-points and adding mounts would also be an option. Then there really are options.

First of all it is an option because if you think it takes too long -take a way point.

I don’t understand how you can complain about taking too long and then in the same breath in another post say, that we do not have time to check the scenery- or that there are no interesting places to explore.

I have been poking my head in holes, caves and falling down cliffs for over a year and I got to all those places on foot because I wanted to see what is there.

but let us take a look at mounts-
first- the terrain in GW2 is the best I have ever seen- it is also not very conducive to mounts since the terrain apart from being uneven, are often a mechanic in the game. Jumping puzzles are just the most obvious example

Second?- Have you ever considered that there are no mounts in the world?
No one uses them- and there is no mention of them anywhere that I have seen.

Take a look at the races for example- the Norn, Charr and Asura.
Both the Norn and the Charr would see it as an insult to ride a mount because it implies they are to weak to use their legs, the Asura would see it as an insult to their intelligence because they made gates after all.

I just cannot imagine a Sylvari riding anything tbh.

The only race who would make remotely sense is humans- but nowhere in thier lore is there such a thing.

So I get that you like mounts- but to imply the system is broken is not only untrue but taking something away to add some other questionable thing (mounts) is not a good idea.

“First of all it is an option because if you think it takes too long -take a way point.
I don’t understand how you can complain about taking too long and then in the same breath in another post say, that we do not have time to check the scenery- or that there are no interesting places to explore.“

It was all based on the idea of removing way-points or having maps without way-points. In that case walking would take to long. I think you missed the beginning of that discussion, that might be why you are confused about this.

Not that I want to go into the mount discussion again but I will answer your comment.
Like I commented on VOLKON here https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/3490392

I still don’t see the terrain as any problem. Yeah you would not do a JP on a mount no. We have many animals that already walk like mounts do… or run like mounts do.

Yes there are many mounts in the game. We have cars, bikes (and actively building them), we have airships, air balloons (now above you in LA), normal ships, helicopters, transport vehicles (Dredge), horse carriages (Being used to get supply to Kessex Hills for toxic LS), on this image you see people riding horses https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/january-2013/ , we have dolyaks used to carry supply and brooms we can already mount on. The whole game is full of mounds. So from that lore view it does not even make sense we don’t have them. Not sure how you can see they are.

“Take a look at the races for example- the Norn, Charr and Asura.
Both the Norn and the Charr would see it as an insult to ride a mount because it implies they are to weak to use their legs, the Asura would see it as an insult to their intelligence because they made gates after all.“ Really? Just say you don’t like mounts thats fine. Charr have an active factory building mounts and I have seen Charr and Norn on airships I have have seen them all on brooms.

About the humans. Nowhere in there lore with the exception of all the horse carriages all over Tyria?

VOLKON.1290:

I still think for player housing we should consider that the Consortium has a lot of real estate for sale in Southsun… just saying. The karka could be pushed back from the north, the area developed and there you go. Of course… there’s always the risk that the karka try and reclaim their lost lands in the future… could be event-full.

Open world housing like that would indeed be fun in your case with a PvE element where the karka can attack. However, the place you are referring to would be to small.

I don’t know how much space would need but I think it’s a least 3 maps fully dedicated to it. Plus I would then also give the option for PvP maps for housing so guild can fight over land and members can build there house on that land. That adds something for the people who like PvP.

mrstealth.6701:

If I wanted a certain fancy sword, I knew where I had to go for a chance to get it. It’s still RNG, but I think I do prefer that to random full-world item chase of a GW2 legendary. A single lucky drop, compared to stack upon stack of crafting materials and an even less likely single drop (precursor).

Agree. It’s to much of a general grind.. Mainly gold to get your items then being able to go for an item itself.

I also rather have to kill one type of mob 1000 hoping to get that one item or do a dungeon 100 to get that mini, or kill that boss to get that skin then that I have to grind for gold to then being able to buy them.

I am however afraid that this has to do with a focus on the gem-store. If they put items like that in the game people could just go for it, this way gold is the main way to get it and you can buy gold with gems.

In the CDI thread we are also talking about this sort of what I call RP end-game. Going for that item in the game or having that fun craft that lets you just make fun items every level in stead of crafts that you need to grind to level 400 / 500 to then finally being able to make that one item you need. Like the legendary or the ascended stuff.

DrDivine.5378:

I always find it strange when people say “no end game content” because i nthe least, it’s the same as other mmos. When I played Warcraft (a game I still respect), what were my end game goals? Doing raids and dungeons of course, but for what? Rare armor and rare weapons.

It baffles me sometimes when other games do the same thing but aren’t criticized for it as much. I still feel like this is a great game well worth my money and more. As far as raids go, I feel like World Versus World is a spiritual successor to that and it’s really fun.

Have a look at the CDI thread. There we are now talking about things like fun crafts or collecting mini’s and other items in fun ways (not by grinding gold). That are elements that WoW has more and is also a form of end-game. Especially a form of end-game casual players like and GW2 did say it also wanted to focus on casual players.

So I guess it’s the RP endgame that is missing.

xXxOrcaxXx.9328:

If this doesn’t fit to the horizontal progression I would ask to ignore ths post or rather move it into the right CDI thread.

I would like to see a new (actually old) form of questing. The player goes to a NPC, activates a quest, fulfills all requirements and visits the NPC again to complete the quest.
However this should not be used to replace the current questsystem. The devs should rather use this type of questing to implement map overlapping quests.

Yeah that did came up a few times. I think it fits in horizontal progression because exploration is a form of horizontal progression and if the quest are made to help you explore they do fit in.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi All,

Here is the proposal I believe we are making, please discuss and let me know if anything should be added or removed. Note many of us have read the thread internally and thus there has already been valuable impact.

Our Horizontal Progression Proposal

The Reward and Associated Journey

— Sociopolitical Diversification: Player housing (Customizable from rewards gained in the open world), Guild Halls (Customizable from mass play rewards) and Map Wide Meta events unlocked through Faction progression (Leading to both individual and group rewards such as titles and skins)

— Role Diversification: ‘Grail Quest’ (Personal rights of passage) style adventures through the open world (testing the player in combat, discovery, and puzzle solving) which others can engage in once the activities are activated which could reward the Hero with New skills/traits, new weapons, access to inaccessible existing weapons, and infusions.

— Hero Recognition (Reward) is a by product of the above two types of Horizontal Progression leading to Unique Skins, Titles, Rewards, followers and NPC reactions/opportunities based on the players individual feats in the world of Tyria regardless of how he/she chooses to play the game.

Global Rule Proposal governing the above:

- Where possible use the above design paradigm to reinforce and evolve the existing world.
- Players should be able to have multiple methods of achieving ‘Grail Quests’, rather than a section of the journey being based on Jumping Puzzles and that alone for example.
-A reworked (cleaner) version of Signet of Capture would work very well for Role Diversification.
- Sub-classes will be discussed again in a CDI once Arena finishes its current balance work in regard to roles.
- QOL features such as a wardrobe should support this global design.

Once we have discussed the proposal and the thread reaches conclusion we will sticky it and move onto CDI Process Evolution Phase 2.

Thank you all so much for your hard work and your passion toward making GW2 awesome. This has been a really good CDI and I want to thank you on behalf of Arena for caring so much about the world we love.

Chris

I would add the more RP elements. As being discussed also on this moment.

Make collecting mini’s more of a play element (so put them really in the game behind bosses, dungeons, drops from group of people) add in other items in a similar way (fun items, recipe’s even dyes and if we ever get them mounts).

Make collecting ranger pets more a play element by making it more dynamic, puting also rare pets in the game.

Fun crafts.. see the man suggestions on the last 2 pages. Where you also really have to go into the world to get your stuff (not from a gold or other currency grind). Fun crafts should also be fun from level 1 to max if they even work with levels.

Lastly, make exploring the world a journey / a quest where you also meed and learn NPC’s. Not a list of locations to cross of your list.

I think that are some important RP-elements for horizontal progression that also many casual players will love.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

However I would rather involve them in getting a recipe or unique items. So you ask “what sort of doll would you like” and she gives you a paper.. “one yellow eye, one green, very long legs….” there is your recipe.

Hm, maybe. But more to the idea was similar to how Tixx worked on his toys. Like the charr want toy weapons or “training aids” as they could put it. Or you could make them a Mini Rox. (Whereupon they will now explode from those eyes made even cuter.)

(And humans will go “not another Queen Jennah”, because they are sick of the players having forced them off on them to get rid of the tons which were made.)

Of course, that would be basic stuff. If you wanted rarer things, turning out to be things from the parents for cheering up their children, give them rarer toys or specially created things. Maybe you could during Wintersday even impress Tixx with your ability (“for a bookah”).

As thank you there could indeed be the drawing you talk about. Rather then a way to get karma or a loot bags.

That’s referencing the infamous Thank you drawing from Flame and Frost.

Well as long as it would be like a one-time thing. But I would not like it to become a rng element where people keep giving toys to that kid hoping something drops. Then I rather kill 100 mobs from a type of mob that drops it then reducing the RP value of that NPC. It would take the ‘kid’ element out of the NPC and make it more like a tool. If you know what I mean.

I don’t know why that letter is infamous but I do like an element like that in a game. (I kept it until they changed the boosters for karma). The fact that it then is just a karma item reduces it’s value for me. I rather would have it was just a gray item or indeed an item you can hang in your house. I like those sort of elements in an RPG game. It gives it much more immersion.

There where also letters you could collect in the MF dungeon I think it was. I did really like them. Collecting them. I though they would send me on some epic quest. But they also where just something that gave you some karma. Big downer.

tigirius.9014:

This actually sounds more along the lines of what I was expecting to find when I purchased the game and what I’d find in a game that could actually be called casual (not what most of these people are calling casual just because it’s not so difficult that only 5 people can complete anything worthy of completing atm.)

So I was not the only one understanding that as part of the casual.

Shadow Blade.1324:

Orpheal.8263:

GW2 needs more craftign jobs..

not when the existing crafting needs to be improved

the entire profession of jewelcrafting is currently obsolete, when will this be fixed?

Well we are talking about many crafts that would be obsolete / not needed. But fun!

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

VOLKON.1290:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

VOLKON.1290:

Why? Because we can, of course, and it could flesh out tinkering a bit more, that’s all.

We . . . are fleshing out . . . Tinkering, something which doesn’t exist yet, with more things which also don’t exist yet, and we don’t even know if Tinkering is something we should be looking at?

Sure why not?

:)

Though it bears to question just what exactly is “Tinkering” supposed to do which “Artificer” can’t as a flavor thing?

The thought was to have a crafting profession for “fluff” items, such as furnishings for halls or homes, town clothing, etc. The posts go into ideas, such as drops off boss mobs being used to make items (dragon scale table for ex.). Tied into housing and all that it builds on the overall concept and helps players have more of a hand in progressing their place plus pulls the world into it by using items found on certain mobs, etc.

Artificing is tied to combat, as are all the professions. This would be ‘out of combat’ fluff.

Fun crafts as I call them. Yeah thats nice addition that I have been suggesting for a long time. Does not only have to been about housing. Just making fun items. Think of items like the SAB music box or a mini and so on.

It however also could mean raising mounts (not going into the mounts discussion again, just an example here) or taming / raising ranger pets and so on. Many ways to make fun professions. Important element is that you get the requirement really from game mechanics. Not so much from grinding gold to buy it. That means, put them in specific places. Can indeed be a boss but might also be a group of mobs. But not from something like.. it’s a general drop but champions are more likely to drop them.

This however should be mainly for the recipes. Not for every ingredient of course. Most ingredients would be more easily farm-able (wood, metal and so on).

Honestly if we’re talking about minis and being able to craft them . . .

New Crafting Profession: Toymaker
- Craft living dolls resembling real creatures. Killing a creature type enough to earn Rank 1 Slayer for it will open a blueprint for a Common miniature, Rank 4 for an Exotic one. Each mini in a rank is different, so collect them all.
- Refine “Junk materials” such as ‘tattered fur’ or ‘dark stained claw’ into toy parts! Toys require internal mechanisms from “gear” junk, stuffing from “fur” type junk, frames from “bone” type junk, and one other refinement for each type of critter relative to their forms. (Hooves for centaurs and such, warm stones for destroyers, et cetera.)
- Craft toys and other fun diversions for other players to use. Make playable instruments, or confetti guns, fireworks, toy weapons, or even disguises to appear differently. (Note: Disguises disabled in WvW and PvP.)

New NPC options: Bless the Children
- Talk with young children around Tyria and find out what they are interested in most. Present them a toy for karma and a loot bag of a level applicable to the area.
(Tentative: if housing gets implemented, maybe they send a “thank you” drawing you can hang up on the wall for a one-time Karma reward. Instead of eating it. You monster.)

Like those ideas. Also the part where you interact more with the npc’s.

However I would rather involve them in getting a recipe or unique items. So you ask “what sort of doll would you like” and she gives you a paper.. “one yellow eye, one green, very long legs….” there is your recipe. As thank you there could indeed be the drawing you talk about. Rather then a way to get karma or a loot bags.

The Lost Witch.7601:

Orpheal.8263:

New Crafting Jobs that GW2 should receive are:

• Writer
• Tinkerer
• Peasant
• Artisan
• Enchanter
• Musician

Just a few I can think about, that would be fitting.

I would add the alchemist to that list. With temporary recipes that are on a mysterious rotation. The crafting process is filled with riddles and guesswork.

I wrote about it earlier here.

What do you think that these crafting jobs should produce btw?

I did talk about some in my last comment but might also add them to the lost here.

-Inventor or engineer (a guy who just make general fun stuff)

-Pet breeder (can tame ranger pets, then cross them to get special colors (hard system to build btw) or breed for abilities and then sell them to rangers)

-Mount breeder (if you would ever get mounts similar to pet trainer)

Funny enough in most mmo’s crafting was my main game element together with collecting mini, pets, mounts and collecting special items. Things like orb of invisibility or a item that spawns an animal or something like that.

In GW2 I have done pretty much none of that. Crafting are only the standard weapon and armor stuff. Something I don’t really like. Plus it does feel so much like a grind in the way that it requires mainly gold and the goal is the highest level. Fun crafts have a fun element all the way up (if there even is a real way up.. pet our mount breeding does not really have a level).

Mini’s are also a grind because most of them you get from grinding achievements in the living story or by grinding gold and buying them. There are only a few that really require game mechanics. The Tequatl one being one of them but because it’s not possible to collect them all (or 99% of them) I such a way then the few that are in the game in a ‘good’ way also lose interest.

Pets are just a list of predefined (you can see the full list in your pet view) animals that don’t really require any interesting mechanic to tame them. It’s not like you can go into the world and find rare pets, maybe some that developers haven’t even tough of you being able to tame. It’s not dynamic enough while that by itself is a whole game mechanic by itself.

Lastly the game does not have mounts and does also not really have such items. And those items could even be a set of rare but totally useless stones “Yellow shiny stone”, “Red shiny stone”, that adds something nice to the game.

All forms of horizontal progression that I did in other mmo’s but are not really available in GW2.

VOLKON.1290:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

VOLKON.1290:

Why? Because we can, of course, and it could flesh out tinkering a bit more, that’s all.

We . . . are fleshing out . . . Tinkering, something which doesn’t exist yet, with more things which also don’t exist yet, and we don’t even know if Tinkering is something we should be looking at?

Sure why not?

:)

Though it bears to question just what exactly is “Tinkering” supposed to do which “Artificer” can’t as a flavor thing?

The thought was to have a crafting profession for “fluff” items, such as furnishings for halls or homes, town clothing, etc. The posts go into ideas, such as drops off boss mobs being used to make items (dragon scale table for ex.). Tied into housing and all that it builds on the overall concept and helps players have more of a hand in progressing their place plus pulls the world into it by using items found on certain mobs, etc.

Artificing is tied to combat, as are all the professions. This would be ‘out of combat’ fluff.

Fun crafts as I call them. Yeah thats nice addition that I have been suggesting for a long time. Does not only have to be about housing. Just making fun items. Think of items like the SAB music box or a mini and so on.

It however also could mean raising mounts (not going into the mounts discussion again, just an example here) or taming / raising ranger pets and so on. Many ways to make fun professions. Important element is that you get the requirements really from game mechanics. Not so much from grinding gold to buy it. That means, put them in specific places. Can indeed be a boss but might also be a group of mobs. But not from something like.. ’it’s a general drop but champions are more likely to drop them’ or the gem-store.

This would however mainly for the recipes or in rare cases one special ingredient. Not for every ingredient of course. Most ingredients would be more easily farm-able (wood, metal and so on).

Vayne.8563:

Bad players will be carried through easier dungeons and they will remain bad players. I’ve played with people who have their dungeon master title and are still bad players. And I’m not judging them. I’m sure they have reason to not be that good at the game. Bad internet connection maybe, on prescription meds, dyslexic, having kids running around in the background who they have to deal with….

Having linear progression doesn’t insure good players. I’ve played with bad players in every game that has linear progression. Those who are interested in playing better will get better. Those who aren’t, aren’t going to get better.

Dyslexic makes you a bad gamer?

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Great game. Mediocre MMO.

Funny I’d have reversed that.

Mediocre game, great MMO for me.

I’ve played games I like better, but no MMO has come close. lol Actually pretty good, rather than mediocre.

I just don’t see a lot of long term progression mechanics to keep players in game.

The LS for me has always been a stop gap measure till they had those mechanics in place. During the year that the LS has been active, I just haven’t seen the progression mechanics being implemented besides the achieve point awards.

For me, it’s a better game than an MMO simply because I really enjoyed the core game and exploring every zone and I had a lot of fun doing it. Now that I have done those things I just don’t have as much reason to play.

I don’t need ascended, WvW to me is just a huge mess of zergs, spvp isn’t fun due to a lack of game modes, the Legendary process relies more on rng than anything that I actually have some kind of involvement in, there is no reason for me to craft except to gear myself, the LS lacks meaningful story, gameplay or lore for me. I look at the game and see no progression, either horizontal or vertical. Even the guild missions don’t have progression… you don’t work your way up to a mega encounter with a great boss, you just pull some names out of a hat and go kill stuff or run around.

To me, that’s what an MMO needs. A way to set myself apart from anyone else. I don’t see another challenge to set myself against and overcome. Just log in, join a zerg train and grab some mats. That doesn’t make me feel accomplished, it’s just busy work like farming for mats in any other game…but for absolutely no reason.

The only reason I still play isn’t because of the game, it’s because of the people I’ve met. And I’ve quit games for less. It has a lot of potential, but for now, that’s all it is.

Potential.

While I don’t mind so much that I am not required to craft I do agree on there are not really being goals to work towards. Well not without a grind.

Does then not matter if your goal is a boss or a mini-collection. It’s not in the game or it’s a grind. Would be a major improvement if they could do that.

They don’t have that working towards bosses because they consider it horizontal progress and in a way it might be but it does not have to be that way. You could also work your way up to some boss with your guild or by doing dungeons unlocking content without having to work for stronger armor (what I consider more of vertical progress).

Not having the PvE goals like mini’s (but also crafting) is because they focus heavily on the gem-store. If they would make it possible to play your way towards that sort of goals there would be less reason to buy them or buy gold to get the. So such goals are now mainly a gold-grind.

timmyf.1490:

Devata.6589:

However if you talk about reducing way-points (That was, what was being talked about) then the question becomes if you need to replace it with something and then mounts come to tough.

I want to be very clear here: you misunderstand. I was not talking about reducing waypoints. I was talking about adding additional zones without waypoints and events/missions/quests that take you from the entrance to somewhere else.

Mounts are not at all a part of this. It would be things like escort quests where you can’t just skip ahead.

If people seem like they’re hostile toward your mounts discussion, it’s because you’ve misunderstood the original suggestion and taken it on a very different path.

Well I reacted on Chris and he quoted that one sentence.

I also don’t mind people being hostile. In the many mount threads you see that the people who are against them tent to be sort of hostile about it.

Difference is that this topic does not attract the people who so like them so it’s like I alone need to defend them. Thats why I also have suggested to have that discussion for another CDI where you also do get the people against and in favor so it can be more of a discussion.

About the mounts.

I think it would be better to spend a other CDI on that as it might not fit into the Horizontal Progression CDI. Just a little bid. In another CDI people you might also have a better discussion between people who want them and who don’t. I think I did say everything about them that there is to say.

timmyf.1490:

Devata.6589:

timmyf.1490:

You don’t travel to reach the endpoint, you travel. Period. That’s it. The exploration is the gameplay.

You spend your 1 hour exploring. And then you’re done.

I feel like I’m failing at explaining it, sadly.

While I might not have totally agreed on the way you visioned the temporary instanced maps and no mounts I do 100% agree on this.

It’s what I am trying to say when I talk about how ‘exploring’ now is crossing of a list of locations in stead of really exploring.

Well let’s work together, Devata. Mounts are an awfully divisive topic, perhaps we can find common ground.

What ways can we encourage exploration without speed boosts? What gives somebody a reason to travel from point A to point B? What, specifically?

Is it about the journey or about the end-point?

If it’s about the journey, then what should be on the journey? If it’s the end-point, then what should be at the end?

Maybe I can guide discussion by mentioning one of my favorite events in the game: the Penzan pirate treasure hunt. Has everybody here done that one?

I think exploration-like quest. Does not have to be exactly like traditional quest if thats not oke because WoW. But something like that.

You get a task, talk to an NPC, he ask your for a favor for that you need to go to his brother how lives on the other side of the map. That NPC then ask you to please go find his son who went into the swamp to catch frogs. So then you are exploring the swamp. Once you found him the son says his grandma can make potions from frogs so you take the frogs and go to his grandmother who happens to live in another maps.. and so on.

Romo.3709:

Devata.6589:

Like I said before, running to a list of locations (poi, vista’s and so on) crossing them all of like you do now and not going somewhere else because it takes so dam long kills exploration more for me.

So mounts would fix that how? Make that “cross-off” of yours a lot faster? True meaning of exploration… You’re not exploring, you’re taking a taxi. You have an option to use waypoints, if you take that option, don’t complain that it kills “your” exploration.
Mounts is not a fix. It never was. In any game. Trying to push the subject on something that actually made quite a lot of sense once it has been cleared up of the whole mounts idea by original poster, is quite selfish. They don’t bring anything new to the game. At all. All they’d do is make it look like one of tens of other MMOs out there. It’s practically asking Anet: “Make GW2 like WoW!!”.

That was more related to quest then mounts.
About you saying “It’s practically asking Anet: “Make GW2 like WoW!!”.
Funny, I feel like what you are saying is “No, because WoW”

Here a nice video about that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NedWPHZCcik&feature=c4-overview&list=UUJTE1U_RsWh9Nl2hMZxMu5w

Romo.3709:

Devata.6589:

But then the questions is.. Isn’t it broken?

By adding mounts you are not making it much more inconvenient. If you would just remove all way-points (or don’t add them in a new maps) yes then you are correct but if you replace it by something else it’s not that big of a inconvenient anymore. Of course it would always take longer then a way point but does that mean it’s better?

We could also just give you everything in the game from the start. No need to level or do events or explore or collect or whatever. You have everything from the start. much more convenient but that does not make it more fun.

And to come back to don’t fix what isn’t broken.
Maybe that is exactly what Anet did here. Many mmo’s have a good solution for it and then Anet did try to fix it while it wasn’t broken. Now some people do think this new system might be a little broken.

How is it broken? You keep saying that mounts will fix it. But fix what exactly? The need for Role Playing? The need for faster movement so you don’t have to fight anything on your way because you can simply just outrun them? You’re not giving any examples or reasons beyond having a shiny mount.
Exploration is a choice. It is not forced upon you, but waypoints are not taking it away from you either. I don’t understand your definition of exploration since with mounts you’re not exploring, you’re running everywhere at extra speed. And “maybe” something catches your eye as you’re steamrolling through the map. That’s not exploration in any means. It’s like taking a drive through the major city and saying: “Yeah I explored it”.
Mounts are nothing more than unnecessary clutter that would make it like every other MMO out there that had no imagination to create what Guild Wars 2 created. One more extra thing to render as you’re loading the map. If you want mounts ask them to make a town clothes that have mounts attached to them. Don’t tie it to exploration.

Somebody stated that way-points do trivialized exploring. Chris agreed and I did as well. In that way you can say there mechanic is broken. So thats what I was referring to.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

But then the questions is.. Isn’t it broken?

By adding mounts you are not making it much more inconvenient. If you would just remove all way-points (or don’t add them in a new maps) yes then you are correct but if you replace it by something else it’s not that big of a inconvenient anymore. Of course it would always take longer then a way point but does that mean it’s better?

Assuming you mean “does that mean it’s not better?” otherwise this makes no sense. I outlined a few reasons Waypoints are used, but here’s some reasons more why mounts might not work well:

- Terrain is often variable or uneven. As I said, trying to get a horse or whatever through Caledon Forest in places, or Metrica Province seems like an incredible hassle. Not to mention a very likely trouble with Bloodtide Coast and Sparkfly Fen, or a large part of Mount Maelstrom.

- Invariably, they’re a status symbol. Always. Even in games where mounts were plentiful (Ultima Online) there were, yes, mounts which held higher status than others. Not so much a definite problem so much as something to be aware of . . . they carry rather deep ingrained negative connotations in the genre to so many. Much like the actual, honest profession of “Player Killing in the wild”.

- Travel times become invariably, inescapably inflated to the point it can be exclusive to take part in things simply because “i’ll never get there reasonably fast”.

We could also just give you everything in the game from the start. No need to level or do events or explore or collect or whatever. You have everything from the start. much more convenient but that does not make it more fun.

This is a bit hyperbolic as a counterargument, and weakens your case a bit to resort to it.

By the way, you also just nearly described Ultima Online. And yes, it was fun right up until you were traveling and got “halberd to the face” for whatever you might have on you. Or for the laughs.

And to come back to don’t fix what isn’t broken.
Maybe that is exactly what Anet did here. Many mmo’s have a good solution for it and then Anet did try to fix it while it wasn’t broken. Now some people do think this new system might be a little broken.

No, it was a broken thing. There is long a tradition of travel needing to cost time or else the player isn’t punished enough. The boat rides and massive open areas of Everquest, primarily come to mind. Which only got worse until they chucked it out the window in “Planes of Power” with the travel books.

It was broken, it was patched together with some solder and duct tape. Guild Wars 2 manages to do it better with some superglue and a clamp to get a tight fit.

Let’s not go back to “waiting for the boat to ride it for a half hour”.

- Terrain is often variable or uneven. Chars also walk on 4 feet so don’t see the difference there. Think it should work just fine.

- Invariably, they’re a status symbol. So what? Everything can be a status symbol. Legendaries are status symbols just as some other weapons. Don’t see a problem there. I don’t feel any negative connotations many people don’t. Really don’t see the problem here.

Travel times become invariably
You can easily reduce that by having fast travel locations (like on a air-ship) spread out over the map.

This is a bit hyperbolic as a counterargument, and weakens your case a bit to resort to it.
Not really. What I try to say with this is that with that argument you can dismiss everything that is not as convenient as something else while ignoring everything else. And so it’s an invalid argument imho.

I never played UO so can’t argue on that.

No, it was a broken thing.
That might be how you see it. I never did see having to travel as a broken thing. It makes sense and that is very important element for me in a game.

Or maybe it was broken in your games. Most I ever had to wait in a game after I just mist a boat or something like that was maybe 3 min. Never half an hour.

Not sure how long loading screens can take in GW2 but it’s still a wait. With some smart programming you can already start loading the new area when the game sees you are waiting for a boat reducing the loading time.

VOLKON.1290:

Devata.6589:

skullmount.1758:

VOLKON.1290:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

timmyf.1490:

I’ve felt this for awhile, though I still don’t quite know how to phrase it. Wondering if others might have an opinion.

As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.

I’ve suggested zones without waypoints as a way around this. Does anybody else feel the same way? Or am I romanticizing the runs from towns to far-flung locations in GW1?

Edit: should have said this originally, but all the credit to Sir Arthur for expressing my feelings better than I’ve been able to. This post was meant as a huge +1 to his.

Hi TimmyF,

I agree:

‘As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.’

Chris

What’s funny is that after playing for years in the original Guild Wars I disagree. I mean, you have to explore as it is to get to the waypoints, but the thought of tedious runs across zones to try and get somewhere you’ve already been… it seems like a step backwards, and if that were to happen in GW2 you’d find the very next hour people demanding mounts or some other means to get around faster. Map travel has always been a part of GW, even included in the lore of the game (there’s a quest you get from a kid who claims his mother invented map travel in Elona if I recall).

I don’t think any exploration is trivialized at all… you still need to walk to where you’ve never been. But the added convenience to get to where you’ve already been… I love that.

My thoughts mirror this as well.
What happens if you are doing the exploring that you want, and a friend wants/needs help doing something. First they’ll have wait till you run there. Then after you finish helping the friend, you’ll need to: 1)remember where you were (granted that already kinda happens even with the waypoints) and 2) run all the way back there. All that time running could mean much more exploring you could get done.

The wilderness zone idea is interesting, but what happens if an actual zone is released that takes up the space next to where those portals into the wilderness zones “lead” to? Are those zones temporary? or do they continue on in that next map released (thus kind always ‘leading’ out to unexplorable portions of the world map?

Maybe a travel to a friend option could help in some situation. At least a travel to guild options (having at least a few guild-members in one spot) would be nice. But overall I never found this getting to a friend a big problem, also not in other mmo’s without way points. Thats where mounts come in.

You seem to have this need to add a buttload of different little systems in order to accommodate the unnecessary and unneeded mounts. We have a system in place that works well with the existing lore of the game, and on top of that you add the nightmares of any other game with mounts relating to the kittening, the trolling (placing mounts on NPCs for example so people can’t access them) etc. Sir Occam is twitching nervously in his grave at the very thought of this.

No I don’t need that to accommodate the need for mounts. Mounts are something many people like. You can leave in all way-points and still add mounts.

However if you talk about reducing way-points (That was, what was being talked about) then the question becomes if you need to replace it with something and then mounts come to tough.

I really don’t need to have way-points to be removed in order to suggest mounts.

And no, it does not fit with the lore. I know you don’t want to see it but mounts fit better with the lore. That does not mean you might not be against mounts. Thats up to you but the lore arguments just does not fit.

I never had any problems in any other mmo’s with mounts and many people liked them. You might have missed the many topics about them.

People can now also block the way of NPC’s. If you want to remove that you need to implement hit-detection on users and NPC’s (but that would create other problems that would require flying mounts to fix.. just saying). Thats totally unrelated to mounts.

Romo.3709:

timmyf.1490:

Morrigan.2809:

What I Absulotely do not want to do, is to spend my 1 hour play time running to where I want to be- I want to get there and play.

thing is I have a choice now you see?

I totally agree. The idea here is that the journey is the gameplay. You don’t travel to reach the endpoint, you travel. Period. That’s it. The exploration is the gameplay.

You spend your 1 hour exploring. And then you’re done.

I feel like I’m failing at explaining it, sadly.

The problem isn’t your idea. The problem is that some people use your idea to push their love for mounts which would in the end completely go against the idea you have in the first place.
They see “exploration” as getting though the map on a shiny mount. I see exploration as going around, jumping on boulders and mountain sides while falling down cracks and holes. Two worlds clash unleashing an argument we’re having right now.

Use the idea to push mounts. How about just many people like mounts and it would be useful to do something with that knowledge. The only thing here is that GW2 is not designed for no way-points while like Chris said they might make exploration feel trivial. So what would then be a good solution.. mounts. Has nothing to do with people using his idea to push mounts.

People are asking for mounts pretty much since the beta of GW2.

VOLKON.1290:

Devata.6589:

VOLKON.1290:

Devata.6589:

Besides, you talked about lore before. They totally fit into the lore. We have cars in the game, airships, horse carriages, use animals to carry supply but we don’t have mounts we ride on / in. That just does not fit with the lore.

Of course it does. When you don’t need to train creatures to be mounts then you don’t train creatures to be mounts… it probably never occurred to them to go that route. Pack animals move slowly, so walking along side them only makes sense (they can’t use a waypoint), and fast travel always is an option for when you don’t feel like walking.

Map travel is a part of GuildWars lore, mounts aren’t.

It never occurred to them? You never noticed that they build cars and airships and helicopters. Plus why would mounts not be able to travel with it? People take a lot of stuff with them when going into a gate or using a way-point. And then there are the horse carriages all over the place. Also have a look at these pictures https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/january-2013/ I see Tyria citizens riding horses.

The link you gave is nothing more then a mechanic to help the player learn how it works. Pretty much the function of a tutorial. Building your whole idea of a lore around fast-travel on that while denying there is a lore for mounts seems silly to me and I really feel like you are fooling yourself here.

You might just disagree on the idea that mounts would be fun. Agree to disagree but this idea that mounts don’t fit in the lore while way-points do is just silly imho.

They build machines of war, not personal travel. There’s a difference. I want to carry this humongous gun over there and blow something up… dolyak says no.

While many cars and stuff in the game seem indeed war-related thats thats not the case for all of them.

Like the horse carriages and the picture I did show you with people riding horses (and you now ignore) and how about the big Wintersday balloon that now hovers above LA?, there are ships that aren’t war related, I think I have also seen airships that are not war-related, the char have some bicycles that might have some spikes on them but also don’t see very war-related with guns or whatever and there is a helicopter somewhere (event related) that is also not a combat helicopter if I remember correctly and even the dredge seem so have some machines just meant to transport people.

Besides, I never said that all mounts where not allowed to have some combat mechanism. I would not mind if they didn’t but would also not mind if they did. Depends on the situation / location I think.

timmyf.1490:

You don’t travel to reach the endpoint, you travel. Period. That’s it. The exploration is the gameplay.

You spend your 1 hour exploring. And then you’re done.

I feel like I’m failing at explaining it, sadly.

While I might not have totally agreed on the way you visioned the temporary instanced maps and no mounts I do 100% agree on this.

It’s what I am trying to say when I talk about how ‘exploring’ now is crossing of a list of locations in stead of really exploring.

Romo.3709:

Devata.6589:

It never occurred to them? You never noticed that they build cars and airships and helicopters. Plus why would mounts not be able to travel with it? People take a lot of stuff with them when going into a gate or using a way-point. And then there are the horse carriages all over the place. Also have a look at these pictures https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/january-2013/ I see Tyria citizens riding horses.

The link you gave is nothing more then a mechanic to help the player learn how it works. Pretty much the function of a tutorial. Building your whole idea of a lore around fast-travel on that while denying there is a lore for mounts seems silly to me and I really feel like you are fooling yourself here.

You might just disagree on the idea that mounts would be fun. Agree to disagree but this idea that mounts don’t fit in the lore while way-points do is just silly imho.

Riding mounts is not “exploration”. It’s a fast forward for people that hate exploration.
Mounts would be fun for people that hate running around maps and RP-ers.
Mounting would practically kill exploration as we know it.

Well I always liked exploring on a mount. You see something in the distance and then go there on a speed thats not annoyingly slow. Then you see something else and go there and so on.

Like I said before, running to a list of locations (poi, vista’s and so on) crossing them all of like you do now and not going somewhere else because it takes so dam long kills exploration more for me.

Morrigan.2809:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

timmyf.1490:

I’ve felt this for awhile, though I still don’t quite know how to phrase it. Wondering if others might have an opinion.

As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.

I’ve suggested zones without waypoints as a way around this. Does anybody else feel the same way? Or am I romanticizing the runs from towns to far-flung locations in GW1?

Edit: should have said this originally, but all the credit to Sir Arthur for expressing my feelings better than I’ve been able to. This post was meant as a huge +1 to his.

Hi TimmyF,

I agree:

‘As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.’

Chris

Mmm I love exploring but I also have limited time- so when I am in the mood, sure I ignore way points and explore- that happens more than you would think.

I do sometimes want to maximize my time and make use of the way points I have unlocked to hit events in far flung locations though.

What I Absulotely do not want to do, is to spend my 1 hour play time running to where I want to be- I want to get there and play.

thing is I have a choice now you see?

It’s not so much a choice because walking is not a viable option. It just takes way to long. Now with mounts it would indeed be more of an option. Just reducing the number of way-points and adding mounts would also be an option. Then there really are options.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

Sir Cusfreak.5971:

I’m sorry, but how could waypoints “trivialize exploration” when you can only open waypoints in places you’ve already explored? If you haven’t explored somewhere, you can’t waypoint there.

They mean after the first time. You run to it once to unlock it and after that never come across much of the land because you simply way-point to your location.

I have lots of places I go once and never ever go back to again. This is not because I can just waypoint through, it’s because I don’t want to go there.

And I think you overestimate how mounts will help – I can look at the maps and see there are plenty of places it simply won’t be possible to use them to travel reliably with. Bloodtide Coast, Sparkfly Fens, Frostgorge Sound . . .

Not to mention places where the terrain isn’t level and will wind up hampering it, like through parts of Kessex Hills and Brisban Wildlands . . . not to begin with Caledon Forest and Metrica Province, where clear roads are kind of a luxury and not a given.

Thats the whole problem. You do not want to be at another location then your destination. But when you would go by road you might see something new along the way and decide to have a look. At least thats what happens to me a lot when using a mount to go somewhere in other mmo’s. Plus you also notice how big the world is.

Personally I don’t know why mounts would not work in those locations however I can imagine that no way-points and the introduction of mounts would be more something for new maps.

timmyf.1490:

Khisanth.2948:

How does it trivialize exploration? They don’t magically become available to you(except some of the ones next to zone entrances). You still have to get there yourself at least once.

Are you saying you NEVER used fast travel in GW1?

If/when Cantha is added to the game are you going to swim through the Unending Ocean every time you want to go there?

…

How much exploring have you done in Orr? How about Southsun Cove? Sure there are waypoints but most of the time they are all contested anyway so it’s like they aren’t even there.

Just to reiterate, because I feel like nobody is understanding me:

1) I’m not saying waypoints should be removed from the existing content.
2) I do not think mounts should be added.
3) I certainly used fast travel in GW1.
4) I do not think you should have to swim across the ocean every time you want to go to Cantha.
5) I don’t explore Orr much because everything there has CC and it drives me crazy.
6) I don’t explore Southsun much because Veteran Karka = owwwww.
7) My suggestion is for INSTANCED GROUP CONTENT as a TEMPORARY way to introduce new zones and provide a sense of exploration
8) After a period of months, those zones would have Asuran waypoints and become more like the zones we have now.

Edit: and here’s the link again: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/CDI-Character-Progression-Horizontal/3416638

hmm personally I don’t like this so much..

Romo.3709:

VOLKON.1290:

Devata.6589:

Mounts and other fast-travel options would then come to mind. Fast travel points to a few towns in a map (we have those big airships in GW2’s lore that would do just fine for that) and then on the ground you use mounds for the last part.

Then you still have the feel of exploration but are also still able to get to your friends pretty fast.

No you wouldn’t. You’d have the feeling of “kitten , this is taking too long to join my guildies for guild missions” or you’d have a case where something that wasn’t broken was replaced for something less convenient and totally unnecessary. There’s no sense of exploration when you’re passing through familiar territory to meet up with someone. Exploration is going somewhere new or unfamiliar, and we do that now quite nicely on foot. Mounts would actually remove some of that sense of exploration because we’d be covering new ground much faster, and even worse, we’d be missing the little things in our rush to see it all. Little hidden caves, holes in the ground that start events, they’d all be raced past in a hurry during “exploration” when you’d be more likely to find things on foot, as we do now.

If a new, waypoint-free zone opened up and people had fast mounts they’d be back in no time saying they explored the entire zone, yet odds are they wouldn’t have seen a thing while doing so. Mounts ruin exploration by hurrying you through places you hadn’t been before.

I couldn’t agree more. Exploration is a choice. Some of us make that choice by actually exploring the areas to their fullest. Some of us complain that Waypoints somehow take away will of exploration. Some of us see it as an excuse to get mounts. There’s an old saying that’s been around for years.

“If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”

And I can’t stress that enough. Just like Aye.8392 stated:

Aye.8392:

Do you love it when you open a map of Orr and 3/4 of the WPs are contested? Do you think, “Oh yes, finally, I get to run around on this map!” Or do you groan to yourself?

To introduce mounts while taking Waypoints away would make this game into another WoW. It’s basically saying: “How can I make this more inconvenient for you?”.
Mounts that would speed up travel would completely diminish what you’d state as “Exploration”. We wouldn’t see a map as an area we can go around and explore, it would be more of a highway of mounts, where the map would be considered as a “travel distance” rather than a place to explore.
So again, exploration is a choice. If you really want to explore the maps, do so. Don’t use it as another reason to bring up mounts.

But then the questions is.. Isn’t it broken?

By adding mounts you are not making it much more inconvenient. If you would just remove all way-points (or don’t add them in a new maps) yes then you are correct but if you replace it by something else it’s not that big of a inconvenient anymore. Of course it would always take longer then a way point but does that mean it’s better?

We could also just give you everything in the game from the start. No need to level or do events or explore or collect or whatever. You have everything from the start. much more convenient but that does not make it more fun.

And to come back to don’t fix what isn’t broken.
Maybe that is exactly what Anet did here. Many mmo’s have a good solution for it and then Anet did try to fix it while it wasn’t broken. Now some people do think this new system might be a little broken.

VOLKON.1290:

Devata.6589:

And it might be fine for your the statement of lore and immersion just don’t seem to fit the facts. How is clicking on a map and then seeing a loading screen in any way more immersion then needing to really travel there inside of the game. About the lore I also said enough. It simply does not fit the lore that we do not have mounts.

Well that’s blatantly false. The lore is map travel, as demonstrated in the link you seem to have willingly ignored. Mounts aren’t in the lore at all. They’re not in the original Guild Wars nor are they in GW2.

You’re also rather dishonestly ignoring the fact that mounts actually detract from exploration by allowing you to quickly go through unexplored areas, which results in you missing the things that you’d find on foot. You speed through on a mount, think you’ve explored it all and ultimately you haven’t actually seen a thing. I’ve come across so many things walking about in new territory that would have easily been missed had I been racing by.

I did not ignore anything. I go b the comments one by one and at the point you write this simply had not come to your comment. By now I have already reacted on both. So maybe just give me some more time to react before accusing me of willingly ignored you. In all honestly, I do think it’s kinda rude to talk that way.

timmyf.1490:

Devata.6589:

And there might also be less need to in a way ‘force’ people to explore. You know that when you are completing a map by running to all the vista’s, POI, hearts and so on. They could remove many of those letting exploration feel much more as something you keep doing while you go instead of it being a list that you have to cross of as you level up to then never visit it again.

It also means that you are even less likely to really explore the area. You just run from one point to another when crossing of the list.

Very true. To extend the conversation, Orr has unique mechanics: there are no Hearts, there are Temples, and there are huge DE chains which must be done to open certain areas.

When we start to venture out into new areas, should the mechanics be the same as Orr? Or should they be different?

I’m no fan of Hearts, so I’d prefer leaving them out. As far as the DE chains, what we’ve seen is that players tend to ignore them. Or worse, they try to exploit the events by not completing them or letting them fail. What other options are available?

Having zones with events that are more like traditional quests could be one interesting option. Let me stick with my idea of waypoint-less instanced “wilderness zones.”

When you enter the zone, there could be a few NPCs. Each has a different objective: rescue somebody who is lost, kill a champion, escort a group, etc. You can talk to them and fire off an event. These events would probably have special rewards beyond normal events – perhaps like you get with world bosses.

You could stay in the zone and keep completing these events as long as your party remains alive. Because there are no waypoints, a wipe means you have to leave the zone and start over.

Because each of the events starts from the entrance, there’s no need to “run” to the events. You don’t need mounts. It’s just a launchpad for other content.

I only played GW1 for a couple years, but this is a bit like the Underworld content, if I remember correctly.

While I do like your idea of way-pointless maps with dynamic events but also more traditional quest. As long as it are really quest-chains. But there are 2 elements I personally don’t like about the idea.

1 it being an instance. Why not real maps that are build like that? Many (traditional) quest can be done individual but also as a group so I don’t see the need for it being an separate instance (it’s that instanced based element that I also did not like in GW1). I like an mmo because of the open world idea and while I agree some elements should be in instances like dungeons and raids and maybe some other stuff. This for me personally would be good just for a normal map.

2 It’s only one map in stead of part of the whole world (because it’s in instance) so the quest would not help you to explore the whole world just this one area. I always liked it how you start doing a quest and that leads to another quest and so on and so on and by the time you end the quest-chain you went from a crowded place in a city through multiple maps ending up in some abandoned sunken ship. Thats the fun of exploring for me. Something I do mis in GW2.

skullmount.1758:

VOLKON.1290:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

timmyf.1490:

I’ve felt this for awhile, though I still don’t quite know how to phrase it. Wondering if others might have an opinion.

As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.

I’ve suggested zones without waypoints as a way around this. Does anybody else feel the same way? Or am I romanticizing the runs from towns to far-flung locations in GW1?

Edit: should have said this originally, but all the credit to Sir Arthur for expressing my feelings better than I’ve been able to. This post was meant as a huge +1 to his.

Hi TimmyF,

I agree:

‘As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.’

Chris

What’s funny is that after playing for years in the original Guild Wars I disagree. I mean, you have to explore as it is to get to the waypoints, but the thought of tedious runs across zones to try and get somewhere you’ve already been… it seems like a step backwards, and if that were to happen in GW2 you’d find the very next hour people demanding mounts or some other means to get around faster. Map travel has always been a part of GW, even included in the lore of the game (there’s a quest you get from a kid who claims his mother invented map travel in Elona if I recall).

I don’t think any exploration is trivialized at all… you still need to walk to where you’ve never been. But the added convenience to get to where you’ve already been… I love that.

My thoughts mirror this as well.
What happens if you are doing the exploring that you want, and a friend wants/needs help doing something. First they’ll have wait till you run there. Then after you finish helping the friend, you’ll need to: 1)remember where you were (granted that already kinda happens even with the waypoints) and 2) run all the way back there. All that time running could mean much more exploring you could get done.

The wilderness zone idea is interesting, but what happens if an actual zone is released that takes up the space next to where those portals into the wilderness zones “lead” to? Are those zones temporary? or do they continue on in that next map released (thus kind always ‘leading’ out to unexplorable portions of the world map?

Maybe a travel to a friend option could help in some situation. At least a travel to guild options (having at least a few guild-members in one spot) would be nice. But overall I never found this getting to a friend a big problem, also not in other mmo’s without way points. Thats where mounts come in.

VOLKON.1290:

Devata.6589:

Mounts and other fast-travel options would then come to mind. Fast travel points to a few towns in a map (we have those big airships in GW2’s lore that would do just fine for that) and then on the ground you use mounds for the last part.

Then you still have the feel of exploration but are also still able to get to your friends pretty fast.

No you wouldn’t. You’d have the feeling of “kitten , this is taking too long to join my guildies for guld missions” or you’d have a case where something that wasn’t broken was replaced for something less convenient and totally unnecessary. There’s no sense of exploration when you’re passing through familiar territory to meet up with someone. Exploration is going somewhere new or unfamiliar, and we do that now quite nicely on foot. Mounts would actually remove some of that sense of exploration because we’d be covering new ground much faster, and even worse, we’d be missing the little things in our rush to see it all. Little hidden caves, holes in the ground that start events, they’d all be raced past in a hurry during “exploration” when you’d be more likely to find things on foot, as we do now.

If a new, waypoint-free zone opened up and people had fast mounts they’d be back in no time saying they explored the entire zone, yet odds are they wouldn’t have seen a thing while doing so. Mounts ruin exploration by hurrying you through places you hadn’t been before.

Funny enough I miss more stuff in GW2 (like little caves) then I did in most MMO’s because when leveling it’s a list of location I need to go to so I just run to all of them to unlock them, crossing of the list (at least after my first character) and it’s much more of a rush. Many mmo’s don’t guide you true the world with locations you have to vised but by giving quest you do so then you are much more exploring.

Now once I have unlocked the locations and way-points you are much more likely to then just use a way-point. So in practice I notice quite the opposite.

Because you are covering ground much faster with a mount when you are going somewhere and you see something in the corner of your eye (what will not happen if you way-point somewhere) you might investigate it. Especially because you go faster.

So you can say mounts ruin exploration by hurrying you through places but thats not a fact in any way. For my I hurry more with ‘exploration’ or rather crossing of a list of locations in GW2 that exploration on mounts in other mmo’s. And after that if I missed something in GW2 it’s much more likely I will see it another time because I won’t come there another time.

Sir Cusfreak.5971:

I’m sorry, but how could waypoints “trivialize exploration” when you can only open waypoints in places you’ve already explored? If you haven’t explored somewhere, you can’t waypoint there.

They mean after the first time. You run to it once to unlock it and after that never come across much of the land because you simply way-point to your location.

VOLKON.1290:

Devata.6589:

Besides, you talked about lore before. They totally fit into the lore. We have cars in the game, airships, horse carriages, use animals to carry supply but we don’t have mounts we ride on / in. That just does not fit with the lore.

Of course it does. When you don’t need to train creatures to be mounts then you don’t train creatures to be mounts… it probably never occurred to them to go that route. Pack animals move slowly, so walking along side them only makes sense (they can’t use a waypoint), and fast travel always is an option for when you don’t feel like walking.

Map travel is a part of GuildWars lore, mounts aren’t.

It never occurred to them? You never noticed that they build cars and airships and helicopters. Plus why would mounts not be able to travel with it? People take a lot of stuff with them when going into a gate or using a way-point. And then there are the horse carriages all over the place. Also have a look at these pictures https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/releases/january-2013/ I see Tyria citizens riding horses.

The link you gave is nothing more then a mechanic to help the player learn how it works. Pretty much the function of a tutorial. Building your whole idea of a lore around fast-travel on that while denying there is a lore for mounts seems silly to me and I really feel like you are fooling yourself here.

You might just disagree on the idea that mounts would be fun. Agree to disagree but this idea that mounts don’t fit in the lore while way-points do is just silly imho.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

You act as if you have a point here because you did say people would say that and then they do. Yes people will say that and have been saying that because it’s something many people like. And because of that it might be a very good idea.

It’s a circular thing though. See, the solution mounts would bring doesn’t solve anything other than a problem created with another solution which isn’t even necessary to impose.

It’s felt Waypoints trivialize exploration, so maybe get rid of Waypoints. But now the world is so big we need a way to get around quickly since we got rid of the Waypoints so let’s add mounts . . . which now trivialize exploration and travel time . . .

Big difference is that with a mount you are still exploring and moving around the world and you don’t have a loading screen. Same for a few fast-travel location with for example air-ships.

So where a way-point is pretty much no exploration and not seeing any land (after the first time) with mounts you simply do it faster but are still having the feeling of traveling and exploring keeping the world big.

Not to mention it adds a whole new gaming element. So yeah, you are replacing one with the other. Question is, witch one is better. In my option, traveling on mounts makes more sens, fits better in the lore, is more immersing and so is better because of that.

Aye.8392:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

timmyf.1490:

I’ve felt this for awhile, though I still don’t quite know how to phrase it. Wondering if others might have an opinion.

As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.

I’ve suggested zones without waypoints as a way around this. Does anybody else feel the same way? Or am I romanticizing the runs from towns to far-flung locations in GW1?

Edit: should have said this originally, but all the credit to Sir Arthur for expressing my feelings better than I’ve been able to. This post was meant as a huge +1 to his.

Hi TimmyF,

I agree:

‘As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.’

Chris

Remember Prophecies? There was only a rez shrine right next to the zone to the town. By Nightfall the developers had realized that it wasn’t enough and put several rez shrines in an area. I hope to God they don’t forget that lesson.

Do you love it when you open a map of Orr and 3/4 of the WPs are contested? Do you think, “Oh yes, finally, I get to run around on this map!” Or do you groan to yourself?

No because the current system is build for waypoints. That is what I have been saying the whole time. Taking them out just like that would not work. You had to replace it woth another system like having mounts. Then it would not be a groan anymore.

I never had a problem with traveling somewhere in other MMO’s and I still don’t. But indeed if in GW2 all the way-points are contested it’s very frustrating because on foot it takes you a long way. And of course Orr also has the problem then you are contently getting slowed down by mobs making it even worse.

VincentDW.9376:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

I agree:

‘As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.’

Chris

Agreed. Many of my best gaming memories are not about achieving expected goals at the end of a journey, but about the unexpected things that happen on the way. With so many waypoints, there is very little room for unexpected encounters with other players/events because after going there just once, you can teleport to almost any destination with near pinpoint accuracy.

Despite having plenty of people playing the game, I would guess this is at least part of the reason I keep hearing people say that so many zones feel “empty.” Even if there are a hundred other players in there with you, chances are you won’t see any of them because they teleport to their exact destination, do their business, and then teleport out again, leaving 95% of the map untouched by human feet except for the slow trickle of people attempting map completion.

I love the wilderness zone suggestion. I would also suggest the following as a method of horizontal progression to reward additional exploratory visits to zones (forgive me if it has been suggested before): event discovery/completion tracking. Just because you’ve visited a place once doesn’t mean you’ve seen everything there is to see there, especially since so many events are timed or trigger conditionally. Show players how many of the different events that occur in each zone they’ve participated in, and reward them for discovering and completing them all.

And there might also be less need to in a way ‘force’ people to explore. You know that when you are completing a map by running to all the vista’s, POI, hearts and so on. They could remove many of those letting exploration feel much more as something you keep doing while you go instead of it being a list that you have to cross of as you level up to then never visit it again.

It also means that you are even less likely to really explore the area. You just run from one point to another when crossing of the list.

VOLKON.1290:

Devata.6589:

In the current system it would indeed be a tedious runs across zones. Thats you then indeed need mounts and fast-travel options (and then I talk about a train or whatever). then it would not be a tedious runs anymore but you would still see the world making it not feel so small and giving more immersion then way-points.

I also am not sure how you feel they fit into the lore. We have the Asura with there gates that require you to enter one gate and then get out another gate. That it part of the lore. Also having some way-points that let you just teleport all over the place totally breaks down the lore around the Asura gates. The whole Asura gates do not make any sense anymore.

The problem is that you now only need to go there once. After that it becomes trivialized. Like I said, mounts an fast travel points will also help to get you fast to the location where you want to be but without braking the immersion and making the world feel smaller.

If you played the original GuildWars you’d be familiar with the concept of map travel. Basically, open your map and travel to any city you wish, whenever you want. Now, a few hundred years later, the Asura have expanded on the whole idea not only with their gates but with the waypoint system.

One huge problem with mounts and fast travel systems, whatever they be (we already have waypoints after all) is that all you’re doing is replacing something that works and works well with something… else. Not just something else, but something from outside the GuildWars universe and in doing so taking away one of the unique feeling features of the game and lore and replacing it with something more ‘been there, done that in the archaic MMOs’.

I disagree that waypoints make the world too small. Little sucks the fun out of a game more than having to work excessively in order to get somewhere to have fun. Back in WoW, if the guild was someplace doing something it really sucked having to ask them to wait 15 minutes while I hop on a gryphon and get to the closest point only to have to hop on a mount and try and ride the rest of the way there… more often than not you don’t bother. It isn’t worth making everyone else wait on you, no matter how much fun it would have been for you to be there. Then there’s the issues with people kittening over their mounts, people using mounts to block access to NPCs and other assorted methods of mount-trolling that plague games like WoW that depend on them. Yuck, no thanks. Troll-free waypoints, easy access to where I’ve been and the run on foot to finish the travel… that’s plenty fine by me, and well within the lore and immersion of the GuildWars universe.

The whole idea as in GW1 or at least how I experienced it was that you pretty much told your character to to to that town and he would do that.. walk there basically but you just skipped that part. Much like what is the idea behind the fast travel in Skyrim.

I have not see any lore that says Asura made waypoints, I really haven’t seen any lore about Waypoint at all. According to you there is some person talking about it. That might be but fact stays that it’s not in line with the Asura gate lore that is very much away. Why are they still building Asura gates if you can travel to some location by clicking on a map? I mean, they are visual objects, not like the town fast travel.

Fast-travel would be for example using air-ships or a train or something like that to travel to a far location. And you might feel it works fine but as you see there are also people who disagree on that.

Besides it does not in anyway come from outside the Guild Wats 2 universe. It’s very much part of the Guild Wars 2 universe. We do already have airships, helicopters, cars, Dolyaks and horse carriages! Only for some strange reason only NPC’s seem to be using them.
And been there done that .. well way-points are now also part of the been there done that. If there is a more fun mechanism why not.

Oow the WoW example again. It’s boils down to.. It’s bad, why? Because WoW.

Norn can block access as well, you don;t need a mount for that. And you can simply implement a fast travel option for guilds. As soon as x guild-members are in a location other guild-members can fast-travel there. How about that. Thats not a “been there done that”. Dear to think outside of the box if you see a problem but don’t feel force to do thinks different for the sake of doing it different.

And it might be fine for your the statement of lore and immersion just don’t seem to fit the facts. How is clicking on a map and then seeing a loading screen in any way more immersion then needing to really travel there inside of the game. About the lore I also said enough. It simply does not fit the lore that we do not have mounts.

Romo.3709:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

Hi TimmyF,

I agree:

‘As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.’

Chris

I don’t know about this Chris. Waypoints are part of Guild Wars 2; part of it’s very core. Without them, the whole community would practically fall apart. For example if your friend wants you to help him out with a certain map or a champion he cannot kill himself, or even come with you map exploring. It would involve a whole lot of running and time to get to that friend just to see him log off 15 minutes later.
GW1 was a different breed. With so many towns and outposts you could go between them with ease and just meet at certain areas with your friends. In Guild Wars 2 we have 6 Towns. Six. And none of them are located nowhere near Orr. If you’d want to consider Fort Trinity as a Town, it’s still a pain to get down to Cursed Shores.
On that topic though, I like the idea of exploration. I spend hours upon hours getting map completion on many of my characters because I simply like going around exploring different areas. But I also like the ability to be anywhere at any time without missing out on anything that’s happening.
Maps without waypoints would be a nifty idea, but they would definitely become deserted within days. I mean let’s take Soutsun Cove for example here. Having six Waypoints in which 3-4 of them are contested 90% of the time make the whole area deserted to everyone except for farmers and Karka Queen Slaying Zerg once in a while. Why? Well, the waypoints are one thing since if you die, you really don’t feel like running all the way back to where you died. Especially if you were few more seconds away from the next reachable waypoint. But the main thing is that the area is very unforgiving. You can’t really take your time and walk around gazing at the marvelous-ness of the design because everything is trying to kill you. And when they hit, they hit hard. Making the whole “exploration” part of it very annoying if you’re by yourself.
And I’m sure that if you ever release a new map, you won’t make it another Queensdale, but another unforgiving grounds. Without waypoints in said map many of us will only go there once.
The idea fast traveling being taken away would break the game for me personally in many ways. It would limit the time I spend exploring to minimum. And it would practically force me to “park” my toons all over the place so I wouldn’t miss out on events.
Not to mention that taking out Waypoints would completely destroy the idea of guild missions making them close to impossible within allocated time frame.

Yeah you could indeed not just take away way-points in GW2 and be done with it. you are 100% correct with that. you do then have to come up with an different system.

Mounts and other fast-travel options would then come to mind. Fast travel points to a few towns in a map (we have those big airships in GW2’s lore that would do just fine for that) and then on the ground you use mounds for the last part.

Then you still have the feel of exploration but are also still able to get to your friends pretty fast.

VOLKON.1290:

Devata.6589:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

timmyf.1490:

I’ve felt this for awhile, though I still don’t quite know how to phrase it. Wondering if others might have an opinion.

As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.

I’ve suggested zones without waypoints as a way around this. Does anybody else feel the same way? Or am I romanticizing the runs from towns to far-flung locations in GW1?

Edit: should have said this originally, but all the credit to Sir Arthur for expressing my feelings better than I’ve been able to. This post was meant as a huge +1 to his.

Hi TimmyF,

I agree:

‘As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.’

Chris

I agree as well. Have had some discussions about this in the many mounts threads. Didn’t feel it fit into the horizontal progression discussion but from a journey viewpoint I guess it does.

There are many places I never see anymore because I way-point directly to where I need to be. The whole world gets so small because of it. Traveling all by foot on the other hand might take to long and becomes boring, thats why it came up in the mount threads. Combination of mounts and fly-points would increase the size of the world (the feeling), and add some more Immersion (no loading screen).

Talking about mounts. In a way you could also see that as a form of horizontal progression. Collecting them but you can even build fun crafts around mounts.

Ha! See? We haven’t even removed waypoints and people are already asking for mounts! Mounts and a lack of waypoints… really doesn’t fit in the GuildWars universe.

Ha! See? Discussions about mounts and taking away way-points are going on on the forums for months.

You act as if you have a point here because you did say people would say that and then they do. Yes people will say that and have been saying that because it’s something many people like. And because of that it might be a very good idea.

Fact that you ‘predicted’ that people would say that does not any any way proof your point, sorry. It’s something people tent to use a lot in discussions as if it would then reduce the value of that idea.

Yeah you do need a different system when taking away way-points and mounts are a way to do that.

Besides, you talked about lore before. They totally fit into the lore. We have cars in the game, airships, horse carriages, use animals to carry supply but we don’t have mounts we ride on / in. That just does not fit with the lore.

VOLKON.1290:

Chris Whiteside.6102:

timmyf.1490:

I’ve felt this for awhile, though I still don’t quite know how to phrase it. Wondering if others might have an opinion.

As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.

I’ve suggested zones without waypoints as a way around this. Does anybody else feel the same way? Or am I romanticizing the runs from towns to far-flung locations in GW1?

Edit: should have said this originally, but all the credit to Sir Arthur for expressing my feelings better than I’ve been able to. This post was meant as a huge +1 to his.

Hi TimmyF,

I agree:

‘As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.’

Chris

What’s funny is that after playing for years in the original Guild Wars I disagree. I mean, you have to explore as it is to get to the waypoints, but the thought of tedious runs across zones to try and get somewhere you’ve already been… it seems like a step backwards, and if that were to happen in GW2 you’d find the very next hour people demanding mounts or some other means to get around faster. Map travel has always been a part of GW, even included in the lore of the game (there’s a quest you get from a kid who claims his mother invented map travel in Elona if I recall).

I don’t think any exploration is trivialized at all… you still need to walk to where you’ve never been. But the added convenience to get to where you’ve already been… I love that.

In the current system it would indeed be a tedious runs across zones. Thats you then indeed need mounts and fast-travel options (and then I talk about a train or whatever). then it would not be a tedious runs anymore but you would still see the world making it not feel so small and giving more immersion then way-points.

I also am not sure how you feel they fit into the lore. We have the Asura with there gates that require you to enter one gate and then get out another gate. That it part of the lore. Also having some way-points that let you just teleport all over the place totally breaks down the lore around the Asura gates. The whole Asura gates do not make any sense anymore.

The problem is that you now only need to go there once. After that it becomes trivialized. Like I said, mounts an fast travel points will also help to get you fast to the location where you want to be but without braking the immersion and making the world feel smaller.

Chris Whiteside.6102:

timmyf.1490:

I’ve felt this for awhile, though I still don’t quite know how to phrase it. Wondering if others might have an opinion.

As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.

I’ve suggested zones without waypoints as a way around this. Does anybody else feel the same way? Or am I romanticizing the runs from towns to far-flung locations in GW1?

Edit: should have said this originally, but all the credit to Sir Arthur for expressing my feelings better than I’ve been able to. This post was meant as a huge +1 to his.

Hi TimmyF,

I agree:

‘As convenient as I find the waypoints all over the place, I feel like it trivializes much of the exploration we would be having without them.’

Chris

I agree as well. Have had some discussions about this in the many mounts threads. Didn’t feel it fit into the horizontal progression discussion but from a journey viewpoint I guess it does.

There are many places I never see anymore because I way-point directly to where I need to be. The whole world gets so small because of it. Traveling all by foot on the other hand might take to long and becomes boring, thats why it came up in the mount threads. Combination of mounts and fly-points would increase the size of the world (the feeling), and add some more Immersion (no loading screen).

Talking about mounts. In a way you could also see that as a form of horizontal progression. Collecting them but you can even build fun crafts around mounts.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

timmyf.1490:

This discussion brings up something I think should be a rule: your character decisions and build should not determine your ability to progress or the paths you choose through (non Personal Story) content.

I respectfully disagree.

If someone decides to build to where they can take damage all day long and has their output of damage severely mitigated, I would expect them to have severe problems trying to take a path where it’s expected they have four more people with them.

I wonder how you would implement any of this without almost unding the whole current system.

Everybody already has a lvl 80. Image that now suddenly people need to start ‘leveling’ it again.. Build leveling then.

It would be nice if it was in the game at release but adding it in now will make many people very unhappy I am afraid.

Aye.8392:

I am simply not able to keep up with this thread, but I do come in and read it as much as I’m able, and I see some things that are suggested as if they are brand new ideas when in reality they are already in the game:

“Hey, I know, we could have long DE’s that culminate in being able to buy a special reward from an NPC!” … Temple of Balthazar anyone?

“Oh yeah, a DE chain that ends in special dungeon content that you can’t enter unless you do the DE first!” … CoF? CoE? Arah?

We already have those things and I do sometimes enjoy them. But, sometimes I just want to hop into a dungeon as quickly as possible and play. If I have set up a time with guildies to do one of the longer paths of Arah, I don’t really want to have to do the DE Chain before I can get in.

Being able to repair my HoM and earn new things in this game to go into it would rock for me. That’s the kind of player housing that I’d like to see.

I think the DE’s rewards somebody was talking about was more mend to be in the way you have that in traditional quest. You do an event and then get some unique reward for it. The temple example is more like unlocking a vendor. However, because events keep repeating one unique reward would not work so good for it, so when trying to make that you soon end up with something like we already have.

Thats another example of where the one is not a substitute for the other.