Guild Wars 2

Azukas.1426:

NeXeD.3042:

Azukas.1426:

Crinn.7864:

Azukas.1426:

StAllerdyce.3941:

What is this test trying to prove? That using hybrid stats with a hybrid weapon kills faster than using zerk stats with a hybrid weapon? Seems logical.

I’m sorry but Carrion out performed the power amulet. In fact it performed just as well as zerker until zerker got an extremely good run of crits.

…until it got a good run of crits.

Of course it didn’t, power unlike condi has a RNG chance to perform better, because of this power must therefore be weaker to condi without favorable RNG since otherwise condi would be strictly inferior.

You fail to see that carrion is out performing the power amulets using only bleeds. This is 8-9 stacks of bleeds and only in the viper amulet did we see 12. Guess which had the fastest times?

Now when you look at the OP of this thread it actually supports his statement.

Why don’t you compare a zerk with a GS, against carrion with sword if you really want to do a fair comparison….

Go ahead be my guest. I went with eliminating as many variables as possible.

You also picked a weapon auto that has a low power coefficient. To be honest, I’m not sure if there are any weapons that have a damaging condition on the auto and have good Power coefficients. Maybe Reaper Greatsword with Deathly Chill? That’s the best I can come up with. That’s still a serious outlier, though, since condition builds don’t use the weapon and damaging Chill is an odd case to begin with.

flow.6043:

3. Parasitic Contagion:

Doesn’t work through Shroud, therefore it sucks.
And before anyone says it would be op: allow it to work through Shroud first, tweak numbers later.

No, this definitely wouldn’t be OP to work through Shroud as-is. I didn’t feel Blighter’s Boon was either, but that’s irrelevant at this point.

Just do a bunch of events. They’ll flow in quite well.

Maxzero.4032:

Lopez.7369:

Yeah. Like I said, I’m asking if Epidemic is the only reason to go conditions over power.

The reason I’m asking is because it doesn’t really seem like adds are hard enough to deal with to justify the overall DPS loss to the raid, unless you’re running double Epidemic.

How much of a loss of DPS is it? Do you even know how much its capable of?

As far as I know there isn’t even a spreadsheet on condi Necro DPS so what exactly are you comparing?

Any spreadsheets we had I can pretty well guarantee haven’t been updated with the Feast of Corruption change, and definitely not with our Chill damage.

Lopez.7369:

Yeah. Like I said, I’m asking if that’s the only reason.

The reason I’m asking is because it doesn’t really seem like adds are hard enough to deal with to justify the overall DPS loss to the raid, unless you’re running double Epidemic.

Because condi Reaper isn’t that much of a loss to DPS, really. Not until you’re below 50%, but Necro is hardly the only class with execute damage.

With one condi Reaper, you trade some DPS for the ability to basically ignore all mobs. Two is ideal, though, for bouncing it back on the main boss.

Lopez.7369:

I still don’t understand the push for conditions. It’s much worse DPS than power on a single target, and has to sacrifice more damage (although not by much) than power to be a tank. Is there any other reason for it besides Epidemic being good on adds in Gorvesal and Sabetha?

You need condi builds to deal with one of the splits of the Vale Guardian in a timely manner. You can kill it without, but it’s slow going and almost certainly causes the boss to enrage.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

If the Reaper is on Staff, they have okay life force generation (try strafing to dodge the auto, it works quite well), but low pressure. Reaper’s Mark is the important one to dodge and has a very unique animation. Conversely, if they’re on Scepter, they have high pressure, but low life force generation.

Chillblains is as dangerous as Reaper’s Mark and it looks exactly the same as other marks. And the casting animation from staff 5 itself isn’t much different from other marks (I even tried necro/reaper myself to learn the animations, but couldn’t see much difference on staff animations).

And i wouldn’t call staff low pressure, chill alone forces you to cleanse.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

On either one, chill application is limited to just two skills outside of shroud (nobody runs Spectral Grasp) if you’re outside 600 range. Both skills are on staff and have decent cooldowns.

Don’t forget sigil of ice, traited signets, chill of death, …[/quote] So you’re running a lot of Resistance? Because that’s the only way signets can create Chill. Chill of Death, amusingly, can actually be blocked, just not by Aegis. Not helpful, I know, but it does come up sometimes. Sigil of Ice does create long range Chill opportunities, but it also means they don’t have some other useful sigil (like energy).

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Even so, Chill in PvP caps out at ~800 DPS, which is hardly difficult to deal with. Heck, Burning did more than that before the condition changes.

Burning did about the same, not more. And unlike chill it has no additional effects aside dmg, yet burning was on of the strongest conditions even back then.[/quote] Burning also didn’t require a specific Grandmaster trait to deal that kind of damage and was (still is) much more common than Chill.

Cogbyrn.7283:

What exactly are you doing while the Necro is spending several seconds applying chill, minor poison, some torment, and starting to stack bleeds? Nothing? You aren’t dodging the main condi applicators? You aren’t blocking/blinding? You aren’t applying any pressure whatsoever while the Necro is vulnerable outside of shroud?

Dodging which main condi applicators? Marks which look all the same (well almost)? Unavoidable procs like chill of death or sigils? Blocking unblockable marks? Blinding from 1200 range? Pls tell me how to do all this, i really want to learn how to counter condi reaper.

Feast of Corruption and Grasping Dead are the big condi applicators on Scepter while Staff has Chillblains (sorry, 4 seconds of Chill is easy to deal with, even with it dealing damage) and Reaper’s Mark (I don’t know how you can say this is similar to the rest of the staff skills on animation, as it’s the only one where the Necro swings the staff and doesn’t wave his hand).

However, I think people are talking about two different builds entirely. Condition Reaper and Power Reaper have to be approached differently.

In both cases, don’t stand in the ice field Executioner’s Scythe creates.

Power Reaper, keep your distance. They can’t do anything worthwhile to you then.

Condition Reaper, get up in their face and pressure them HARD when they’re not in shroud. Other than staff auto (which is weaksauce), range doesn’t make their stuff any easier to avoid. However, their actual defense is rather low, basically limited to just Weakness. Most are even running full glass on their gear (both runes and amulet) right now.

Sol.4310:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Sol.4310:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Sol.4310:

Maybe Reaper wouldn’t be so bad if they bloody fixed Signet of Vamp, it’s a joke.

What about it needs to be fixed? The fact the active can’t be dodged? Keep in mind that it doesn’t do anything by itself and you can prevent the debuff from doing anything.

Making it so the active can be dodged would probably actually add too much counterplay to the skill. It already has a longer cooldown for a heal skill and a long cast time, plus doesn’t heal for much unless he can use most of the debuff stacks.

Plus, most Reapers are running Consume Conditions or Your Soul is Mine!

Are you clueless to the fact it can go through walls and has infinite range? to top it off take notice of how many conditions it applies.

Like most would agree just remove the through wall and stupid range factor and it wouldn’t be a problem.

It applies…no conditions. Seriously, none. At all.

Also, it has 1200 range. The debuff stays on you if you leave that, sure, but it doesn’t get applied if you’re that far away.

How do you not know how Signet of Vamp works? you sound rather clueless I advise you go test before you start ranting false facts.

Probably because you are simply wrong. I’ve run SoV a lot. Heck, I was doing it before Signets of Suffering was even thought of.

Signet of Vampirism does not have unlimited range, nor does it cause any conditions whatsoever. The only signet that does cause conditions is Signet of Spite.

Now, can there be a bug with Signets of Suffering? That I can buy. There’s not a reason the range should work differently with SoV compared to Signet of Spite or Plague Signet. All three are single-target with the same range. The debuff on SoV functions properly in respect to range, so why Signets of Suffering doesn’t is beyond me.

Going through walls I think might have some coding issues due to the lack of checks (like dodging).

Sol.4310:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Sol.4310:

Maybe Reaper wouldn’t be so bad if they bloody fixed Signet of Vamp, it’s a joke.

What about it needs to be fixed? The fact the active can’t be dodged? Keep in mind that it doesn’t do anything by itself and you can prevent the debuff from doing anything.

Making it so the active can be dodged would probably actually add too much counterplay to the skill. It already has a longer cooldown for a heal skill and a long cast time, plus doesn’t heal for much unless he can use most of the debuff stacks.

Plus, most Reapers are running Consume Conditions or Your Soul is Mine!

Are you clueless to the fact it can go through walls and has infinite range? to top it off take notice of how many conditions it applies.

Like most would agree just remove the through wall and stupid range factor and it wouldn’t be a problem.

It applies…no conditions. Seriously, none. At all.

Also, it has 1200 range. The debuff stays on you if you leave that, sure, but it doesn’t get applied if you’re that far away.

@Morwrath: Metabattle is hardly representative of what “most” people run and lower MMR’s tend not to have the coordination to really use SoV. It’s used frequently, sure, but not even 50% of the time. As you go up in rating, it gets more common.

Sol.4310:

Maybe Reaper wouldn’t be so bad if they bloody fixed Signet of Vamp, it’s a joke.

What about it needs to be fixed? The fact the active can’t be dodged? Keep in mind that it doesn’t do anything by itself and you can prevent the debuff from doing anything.

Making it so the active can be dodged would probably actually add too much counterplay to the skill. It already has a longer cooldown for a heal skill and a long cast time, plus doesn’t heal for much unless he can use most of the debuff stacks.

Plus, most Reapers are running Consume Conditions or Your Soul is Mine!

Sol.4310:

Maybe Reaper wouldn’t be so bad if they bloody fixed Signet of Vamp, it’s a joke.

What about it needs to be fixed? The fact the active can’t be dodged? Keep in mind that it doesn’t do anything by itself and you can prevent the debuff from doing anything.

Making it so the active can be dodged would actually add too much counterplay to the skill. It already has a longer cooldown for a heal skill and a long cast time, plus doesn’t heal for much unless he can use most of the debuff stacks.

MAN.9046:

everything feels so bloated IMO so everything needs toning down/nerfing (in the CC department especially) execpt daredevil and berserker? Then again I’m a vanilla pleb, i shouldn’t be competing with the $50 boiz am i

Quite a few core specs that compete quite well with elite specs, actually. There are actually a fair number of core builds that counter the elite specs, but these tend not to be run because in the prior meta, they were seen as “bad.”

For example, a shortbow Ranger will actually stomp all over any Reaper build. By outranging Shroud + shouts and being able to easily kite the Reaper, plus decent condi clear, it has the upper hand. However, you won’t find anyone running it because it wasn’t great in the prior meta. Also, the shortbow trait isn’t that great :/

Best you have right now is Wanderer’s. Also probably the best we will get.

I never really thought of it like that. Using attrition to down a boss with a hard limit sounds like fun.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Cogbyrn.7283:

There is counter*play*. Cleanse and kite when the Necro is in Reaper Shroud. Keep slows up and simply dodge away from the Shroud #2, or just make sure to dodge Shroud #5. When the Necro isn’t in Shroud, apply burst/damage/focus/etc. Dodge the LF generating abilities, if you feel inclined to keep the Necro out of Shroud, or dodge the highest damage/condi applying abilities if you want to mitigate the damage potential.

And counterbuilding is part of the game. You expect every class spec to be balanced against every class spec in 1v1? Is that what you think this game is about? If you don’t expect that, then it’s necessarily the case that certain builds will be better against certain other builds. That’s the way the cookie crumbles. If you do expect that, then I think you’ve been misinformed.

You are talking as if reapers can’t deal any dmg outside of shroud. Staff has 1200 range, scepter 900. Chill, poison, few bleeds, fear, torment, and even more chill … Everything can be applied without shroud. Doesn’t need high stacks, just some condis to cover the chill. If the take sigil of ice they can apply chill even with autoattacks.
Dodging the LF generating abilities? Such as staff auto and marks? Oh wait, marks generate LF even if you dodge them …
And pvp maps offer plenty obstacles to block ranged attacks so it is often not possible to attack from outside of 600 range …

If you can’t attack the Reaper from outside 600 range because of obstacles, he can’t attack you either.

If the Reaper is on Staff, they have okay life force generation (try strafing to dodge the auto, it works quite well), but low pressure. Reaper’s Mark is the important one to dodge and has a very unique animation. Conversely, if they’re on Scepter, they have high pressure, but low life force generation.

On either one, chill application is limited to just two skills outside of shroud (nobody runs Spectral Grasp) if you’re outside 600 range. Both skills are on staff and have decent cooldowns.

Even so, Chill in PvP caps out at ~800 DPS, which is hardly difficult to deal with. Heck, Burning did more than that before the condition changes.

Alekt.5803:

How do you cleanse condition when you’re chilled back everytime you do that condi cleanse? You eventually run out of options.

So stop trying to melee them while in the ice field?

Also, this comment kind of sets up exactly how Necromancers should be functioning. They were intended to be the attrition class since day 1, but to be “attrition” in this game, you eventually need to be able to cause your foes to run out of options. Fighting a Necro should basically have always put you on a timer; the longer you let the fight go on, the less likely you are to win.

Maelwro.7562:

I’m curious to hear this as well — currently, is power or condition preferred in raids and fractals? I currently have an ascended zerker set on my Necromancer/Mesmer, and while I like the GS/power in general, the lack of ranged options on a Power necro and the slow animation has caused some problems. I also like a playstyle that I can adopt for both PvE and PvE (e.g., Condi or Power). Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Both are viable, for the first time in practically ever. Zerker Reaper has a tougher time for the first 50% of an enemy’s health, but once they drop below that? They drop fast. Especially if you break their defiance bars.

Condi builds are more consistent all the way through, and are probably the better pick right now for WvW or PvP.

Scootabuser.4915:

You can only have 2 minions from death nova up at a time (unless alacrity effects the cooldown which I doubt), and those do NOT deal more DPS then even just deathly chill (1000-1400 DPS). Death Magic is trash tier for condition builds.

Not true in the slightest. Jagged Horrors don’t have timed life, they just lose a set amount of health each second. Even without healing, the tooltip showing 30 seconds is still inaccurate, as they actually last about 33-35 seconds. If you have Flesh of the Master equipped, this time is increased by 50%. With healing, it’s possible to keep them up indefinitely.

It’s possible, but nothing is for certain. The main thing with Reaper is that every aspect to it has clear counterplay options. Usually, this just means “kite” as there’s not a lot a Reaper can do to you outside 600 range.

I will say it’s bruiser specs are hellish to deal with, but that was kind of the focus of the specialization anyway. Slow, tough, and gods help you if they catch you. These specs actually do worse in 1v1’s than 1v2’s if you’re not properly coordinated, so if you’re having trouble bringing one down, try soloing it. It sounds counterproductive, but it really can work.

Also, the CC that Reaper brings has 1.25 second cast times. Watch for the animations and dodge/blind/block it. If you don’t, they can’t be stunbroken, so you really are in serious trouble.

ragnarokda.1805:

Israel.7056:

Saiyan.1704:

I’ll summarize what OP is trying to say

• Game is hard when i’m on a bad, randomized, team.
• SoloQ is full of builds that are unviable in Tournaments, yet, I’m not good enough to beat them.
• I don’t like a certaint build type, so lets just remove it from the game.

Yea, I don’t like bunker sustain classes but you don’t see me making a QQ post about it.

Morwath.9817:

All we need is toughness reducing condi damage.

It’s not an issue so why do you need more help against it?

Solid troll post.

Except it isn’t a troll post. Any time the game changes functionally where the typical player is introduced to play styles they aren’t used to combatting everyone flips their kitten. It is a L2P issue and everyone will eventually get used to having to think about more aspects of the game.

Supreme has been on an anti-condition crusade for a long time now. This isn’t a case of him “getting used to it”, he just doesn’t want to slot condi cleanse. Or learn which hits are the big ones from a condi build. The later of which would solve the vast majority of problems people have with condi builds.

Morwath.9817:

All we need is toughness reducing condi damage.

Then what counters high Toughness?

Ryouzanpaku.1273:

Thx this is good to hear!
What is more viable – power (I like GS in general, but am bit afraid of animation speed on necro) or condi (scepter/x + dhuumfire)?

Yes.

So the energy cost is not the best balanced. I can still get behind Revenants overall having lower cooldowns due to the energy costs. Just means more work needs to be done balancing the costs.

roelvanesch.2817:

Saiyan.1704:

DS is a Hard Counter to ALL condi build variant, with the exception of hybrid builds and I guess Necros.

Necros too. Viper is a hybrid amulet (both power and condition damage are equal).

Viper is by no means a hybrid amulet, it invests only in the stats that boost condi damage in one way or another

So the 1050 Power is my imagination?

Kulvar.1239:

My mistake ^^

Is the self-harm instant or ticking each second?
Are you not afraid that too much burst will end in nearly instant fight with the pressing of every key on the keyboard? Gambling on the result “either I kill him or I kill myself”.

Self-harm is up-front, but “power” does not necessarily mean “burst.” For example, Plague is a powerful skill, but I wouldn’t qualify it as “burst.”

Starfall.6425:

Another, hopefully last question:

You mention that Vampiric aura gets on to 15 different allies. How does it work? The tooltip does not really imply it is possible to get it on more than 5 people/pets.

Does it pulse with a lower CD than the aura (9sec) lasts?

Pulses every 3 seconds. The aura effect lasts 9.

Senario.2038:

So here is a fun question, assume that you get what you want (regardless of whether or not it is good for the game) and Diamond Skin is removed from the game. What effects will this have?

Who is asking for it to be removed? I’m only seeing two groups here:

1. those blindly defending the current trait, not wanting to see any change even when they themselves say the trait is “bad.”

2. Those wanting to change the trait to provide openings for condition builds to use while also making the trait relevant against all opponents.

Ascended Sinister trinkets actually provide more for condition damage than Exotic Viper’s do, especially if you have Curses line. Given how poorly staff and scepter scale with Power, that’s your route to optimal damage.

Viper’s weapons, amulet (how do you get this, by the way?), and armor, Sinister Rings and trinkets, Rabid backpiece. All Ascended. If you have the legendary backpiece, go Vipers on that, but currently, that’s your only option to have anything but Rabid for condition Ascended in that slot.

Zetsumei.4975:

Altoid.9104:

It uses the necros, you are the new source so it uses your stats but it uses the time remaining as the duration.

Is that the same with the revenant spreading or does that work the same way as a transfer?

Revenant applies new condis, so they use the Revenant’s stats. Including condition duration, since the base duration is 3 seconds.

Kulvar.1239:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

but the baseline power level I’m shooting for on basic utility skills is 60 second cooldown elite skills.

What an ugly idea… Basically you spam AA and sometimes you get something else to do…

No, that’s the power level of the skill I’m looking at. These are average utility skill cooldowns, ranging from 20-35 seconds. Basically, you can have an entire bar full of “elite” skills, but you have to be careful with use due to the self-harm.

Beldin.5498:

slpr.2647:

did they nerf this thing?!?! I used to get from 6 to 10 out of 3 strikes, now I get……. 3. yep, 1 each strike. barely pays to have the darn thing.

Quartz has always been mostly just 3 for me. Seldom you get 1,1,5 or maybe just
one charged crystal.

My personal best was 2 charged crystals plus the bonus 5 in one day with my own home instance node. Before that, I didn’t even know it was possible to get a bonus roll more than once. Haven’t gotten another roll like that since, so I’m chalking it up to extremely rare fluke.

infantrydiv.1620:

Rezzet.3614:

I just love how this exact trait was deemed overpowered in engineers and they had theirs removed while theirs only activated while they had 25% hp or under and did not removed currently applied conditions

‘this exact trait’?

…I can’t even… these forums, endless facepalms

Automated Response did originally function identically except for the health threshold. That was while below 25% instead of above 90%.

Xillllix.3485:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

What’s funny is that the build everyone was complaining about used Celestial amulet and hasn’t really seen nerfs, rendering your first paragraph meaningless in the face of history, but I digress. Fresh Air ele is the only time they went glass, but was by far the definition of “glass cannon”, bursting down even Warriors before they could react, but dying to a stiff breeze themselves.

The might on cantrip nerf was a huge nerf for celestial eles that relies on stacking might, and before that might was nerfed and the sigil of battle as well. Burning was nerfed and our condi damage comes form the celestial amulet.

Fresh air ele is destroyed, it’s no longer viable because it no longer has the burst to down anyone, and now heavy and medium classes have a better burst than light classes and light classes are tanking, so the entire balance went down the drain.

Fresh Air did get destroyed (no bolt to the heart access really, really hurts), but given it wasn’t really viable to begin with… To be clear, I’m a fan of build diversity across the board, but unless thief, mesmer, and Shiro get nerfed to oblivion, glass ele will frankly never be a thing in PvP.

As far as “light classes tanking” and such, ANet stated that each profession should be able to perform each role. They’ve succeeded in some cases (Eles being some of the best tanks, for example, despite having the lowest health and armor), not so much in others (ever seen a thief tank?).

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

You don’t need to crit to break DS.

Y’all need to L2P seriously. NONE of the professional players have any issue with this.

You surveyed them all?

I’d wager that many of them do have an issue with it. Not in its strength, but on its polar nature. It’s either winning the fight for you, or worthless. I’d bet that most high level players would like to see it become more applicable against Power builds and in teamfights (conditions are big deals in both), and would happily trade the auto-win vs. condition builds to get it.

That said, neither of us will know.

Xillllix.3485:

What you need to realize is that bunker ele is the only viable ele build right now because Anet listened to all the ridiculous anti-eles complaints from people that couldn’t adapt. The ele needs hard counters, it’s just that squishy of a class now. The class used to be playable with a Berserker amulet, now even Marauder is not usable on ele.

What will you ask to be nerfed after Diamond skin? Stoneheart? If you nerf more of the defensive mechanism of the class the class is just dead. It has already been cornered into this bullkitten bunker meta that is just no fun to play at all (which is why I switched to Reaper).

What’s funny is that the build everyone was complaining about used Celestial amulet and hasn’t really seen nerfs, rendering your first paragraph meaningless in the face of history, but I digress. Fresh Air ele is the only time they went glass, but was by far the definition of “glass cannon”, bursting down even Warriors before they could react, but dying to a stiff breeze themselves.

Stone Heart is better designed than Diamond Skin based on two reasons:

1. It doesn’t totally negate direct damage. Even if that backstab didn’t crit, it still did damage. You can kill a stone heart ele in earth attunement using only direct damage. Not the easiest thing in the world, but it’s definitely possible.

2. Stone Heart has natural openings that an opponent can use. When the ele shifts out of Earth, he can be crit. If he stays in earth, his damage is much lower, so you can play around that fact instead.

Plus, “condi-only” and “teamfight” don’t belong together in the same sentence anyway.

It’s worth keeping an eye on, but it’s not a thing I would personally balance around. I definitely wouldn’t assume it for balance purposes.

Dadnir.5038:

Not sure I would enjoy a spec that would help ennemy to kill me. Corruptions are already in a tight spot and aren’t that unforgiving so…

It wouldn’t be for everyone, but the skills have to be powerful enough to justify the self-harm. Unlike the way Corruptions are set up, though, health costs are easier to balance, as that cost can’t be transferred to make it a “strength” of the skill. It is, and only can be, a payment.

PowerBottom.5796:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Diamond Skin: Gain Resistance for 4 seconds when attuning to Earth.

The counterplay here is to either strip the Resistance or to condition burst the Elementalist after the boon has run out while Earth Attunement is on cooldown. This also rewards effective play on the Elementalist’s part better, as they can counter an incoming condition burst by saving Earth and swapping to it when it hits.

I see some Problems regarding PvP:

Diamond skin is a necessity currently against reapers to stand a chance of winning the 1v1, but it’s also the class that gives the least farts about boons such as resistance. Yes it’ll make the MU harder for the Necro if you run it compared to like stoneheart, but the class against you need diamon skin the most will have the easiest time to deal with it, while other classes like engi will likely have just as hard of a time, if not harder, against resistance as with the resistance.

What I like about it is that it requires more skill and isn’t completely useless in teamfights.

4 seconds of resistance alone might be too weak though, they should add some other effect to it, like for example 4 seconds of resistance for you and 2 seconds for allies in a small radius (like 240). It would make the skill even more interesting to use, it wouldn’t change 1v1’s a bit. It would also require very good timing, so unorganized teams (that have a harder time with getting rid of resistance because of communication and a well worked-out team setup) wouldn’t be faced with a way too strong skill, but Top-teams could make great use out of it, but also have the skill and organization to deal with it better.

I like the idea of giving a bit of Resistance to nearby allies when it procs. It does improve teamplay and creates a fun play/counterplay mechanic. The one thing I’d keep an eye on is multiple eles cycling through to keep perma-Resistance on the team, but the proposed radius is small enough that it doesn’t allow for that to happen without opening themselves up to a variety of other attacks.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Again this is seriously a L2P issue. If your build cannot deal ~1500 power damage your build is simply bad and you should feel bad.

Can you deal that ~1500 power damage before the Ele heals it all back up?

A pure power build can fail to do that, especially with boosted Protection. A 2k hit (easy for non-crits, and even many smaller crits) fails to break that threshold. The ele basically farts and pops up to full again.

If you fail to do 1500 damage with a pure power build all hope is lost for you and you might be better suited for pve.

Also 2k hits break the treshold.

Also, have you heard of CC and interrupts? No? Maybe go back to PVE.

2k after the 40% reduction from Protection is only 1.2k actual damage dealt, which gives the ele another 300 health before DS is broken.

You also failed entirely to read what I said. Even as a pure Power build, you’re not guaranteed to break it quickly as not all of your hits will crit. Heck, even a Gravedigger that fails to crit can potentially not break that threshold once you factor in Protection (and either Earth or Frost aura’s damage reduction). You get unlucky by not critting, and they’re still above that threshold. Some of the weaker attacks (not many), even critting won’t break it. But as a Power build? You usually don’t care, because Diamond Skin isn’t really doing anything to stop you anyway.

CC and interrupts are things, yes, and they get used. But how do you stop the instant-cast heals from shouts with aura healing? Or the cantrips that core D/D Ele uses?

Do I think Diamond Skin is unbeatable? Heck no. I think it’s godawful design that needs an overhaul. I want to see it changed so that it’s buffed drastically in teamfights and against Power builds, but gives condi builds an opening to do anything at all to the ele running it.

Diamond Skin needs to have its health threshold removed, but with that, a change in how its protection works as a whole. Again, we have the Resistance boon now. This is a tool ANet has to work with when altering things in the game. Making Diamond Skin grant Resistance on some particular trigger (not a health threshold!) will let it be useful in far more circumstances than just “I’m fighting a condi build that doesn’t have friends around.”

Xillllix.3485:

Crinn.7864:

Xillllix.3485:

This thread is just the best: People complaining about Diamond skin then we get 1-shot all over the place by skills that hit over 10k/sec from heavy classes.

Really, you’re gonna complain about a 10% threshold when you can just 1-shot the class down?

I didn’t realize condi builds had power attacks that hit for 10k.

My condi Reaper can do 6k Gravediggers. Just get one of your friend to cleave or adapt your build. Condis are passive and constant damage, they initially were not meant be your main source of damage.

It’s quite normal that the squishiest class has the best counter to a 1-sided build.

Anyway that trait isn’t even good.

You’re not running Condi Reaper. Not with Greatsword, and those numbers require at least Vipers amulet, which is hybrid (or did you forget that it gives just as much Power as condition damage?). No, at best, you’re running hybrid Reaper, and even then, you’re more focused on Power than condition.

And Conditions have been intended since alpha to be an option for your main damage source. ANet has been stating that since their first articles on the stat system and boon/condition system for GW2.

Conditions are no more “passive” than power is. If you don’t hit, you do nothing. Cast times are no shorter, unmitigated damage is pretty much identical, and they have just as many counters and defenses as Power damage does.

Is Diamond Skin good? Not from a design standpoint. This trait, more than any other, is binary: you either win almost automatically, or you don’t have a grandmaster trait. The way it works now is too polar and it can definitely be reworked to be more applicable without giving auto-wins.

Tadsoul.6951:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I’ve actually been working on a Cultist spec with the same theme. The amount of health I’m using for sacrifice costs is significantly higher, but the baseline power level I’m shooting for on basic utility skills is 60 second cooldown elite skills.

I’m not finished, though. Got the weapon skills to design as well as two more utilities and 5 traits.

cool i will look forward to seeing it. How much health are you planning on sacrificing?

It varies with the skill, but it’s a flat amount rather than a percentage (scaled down when downlevelled). For example, the Heal skill, Blood Renewal (yeah, I’m taking a lot of GW1 skill names for it), costs about 3,500 health. The elite costs ~6k health.

So roughly 15-33% of a Necro’s max health who hasn’t invested in Vitality, depending on the skill. Blood Renewal in particular is an absolutely massive heal, but it doesn’t work at all for tight situations as the main healing portion is delayed 7 seconds. Total heal is currently set at around 12k+150% healing power, but I’m looking at bumping it up higher.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Again this is seriously a L2P issue. If your build cannot deal ~1500 power damage your build is simply bad and you should feel bad.

Can you deal that ~1500 power damage before the Ele heals it all back up?

A pure power build can fail to do that, especially with boosted Protection. A 2k hit (easy for non-crits, and even many smaller crits) fails to break that threshold. The ele basically farts and pops up to full again.

At least in the case of Necro, ANet can buff the base class without changing Reaper. This is done by changing the Death Shroud skills. Guardian is harder to do so with the virtue actives, but still theoretically possible.

Can’t do that at all with 7/9 elite specializations we currently have, since they don’t lose access to any particular thing.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Power builds work quite well with just Power. Precision and Ferocity aren’t really needed to kill things, they just make it faster. This is especially true for Reapers and Revenants, who can get high crit chances without Precision, but really, it can work out for anyone (Sigil of Intelligence exists, and there are multiple classes with strong Fury uptime).

Absolutely not true for Mesmer.

I admit to not being the most experienced Mesmer player, but pretty sure Mesmers have plenty of access to crit chance without Precision on gear. Between sword trait, phantasmal fury, and improved shatters, the options exist.

Now, I don’t say these are great, just that they exist. The opportunity cost on those traits is high.

Saiyan.1704:

DS is a Hard Counter to ALL condi build variant, with the exception of hybrid builds and I guess Necros.

Necros too. Viper is a hybrid amulet (both power and condition damage are equal).

Actually it has nothing to do with opportunity costs and everything to do with phantasms and weapon skill coefficients. Not to mention how Mesmer bursts work.

Actually our best option for what you’re talking about has only come with Chronomancer, and is based purely on ones ability to maintain slow on his target (this one is viable and legit). Never the less, viable builds are having to give up the likes of dueling and illusions, so again, absolutely not true for Mesmer.

Works great on classes whos primary source of sustained damage comes directly from the user though.

The opportunity cost is still there, as to use the traits you not only have to pick them over other options, but you also have to use perhaps sub-par weapons (though the Phantasm Fury is a slightly different story, since every build has at least two phantasms).

As I said, I don’t claim to be an expert Mesmer player. Phantasms being the only summonable entity that scales off of player stats does make them different from the usual. On most professions, the AI build is the one that gets great Soldier kill times, but Mesmer I will fully admit is different.

Diamond Skin doesn’t need a nerf, it needs an overhaul. The anti-condition theme is all that is really salvagable for this trait, but it needs to be something other than “you slotted this trait, you win!” or “Haha, you wasted your grandmaster trait choice!”

I’ve actually been working on a Cultist spec with the same theme. The amount of health I’m using for sacrifice costs is significantly higher, but the baseline power level I’m shooting for on basic utility skills is 60 second cooldown elite skills.

I’m not finished, though. Got the weapon skills to design as well as two more utilities and 5 traits.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Power builds work quite well with just Power. Precision and Ferocity aren’t really needed to kill things, they just make it faster. This is especially true for Reapers and Revenants, who can get high crit chances without Precision, but really, it can work out for anyone (Sigil of Intelligence exists, and there are multiple classes with strong Fury uptime).

Absolutely not true for Mesmer.

I admit to not being the most experienced Mesmer player, but pretty sure Mesmers have plenty of access to crit chance without Precision on gear. Between sword trait, phantasmal fury, and improved shatters, the options exist.

Now, I don’t say these are great, just that they exist. The opportunity cost on those traits is high.

Saiyan.1704:

DS is a Hard Counter to ALL condi build variant, with the exception of hybrid builds and I guess Necros.

Necros too. Viper is a hybrid amulet (both power and condition damage are equal).

Power builds work quite well with just Power. Precision and Ferocity aren’t really needed to kill things, they just make it faster. This is especially true for Reapers and Revenants, who can get high crit chances without Precision, but really, it can work out for anyone (Sigil of Intelligence exists, and there are multiple classes with strong Fury uptime).

Power builds are just as likely to be ranged as Condition builds are. Condition Warrior, Ranger, Guardian, and Revenant are all melee builds. Condition Engineer is also in melee for decent lengths of time. Only Necromancer, Mesmer, and Thief get to enjoy ranged condition builds.

Conversely, you have shatterburst Mesmers, Longbow Rangers, Hammer Revenants, and more for ranged Power builds. So yeah, arguments for positioning difficulties are total bull.

The risk/reward is extremely similar between condition builds and power builds. The difference is that people are horrible at knowing where high condition damage actually comes from. As such, the “reward” part gets artificially inflated.

It’s no harder to avoid condi burst than power burst. Heck, you don’t even have to change your build (two exceptions: Signet of Stone and Defy Pain, although Defy Pain usually is run alongside Berserker Stance)!

I have an alternate proposal for changing Diamond Skin:

Gain Resistance when you swap attunements.

Now, this would take one of two forms:

1. 1 second of Resistance, no ICD. This one plays more into the constant swapping of attunements, but the duration is short to keep uptime reasonable. Cons to this are that the short duration will rarely feel very impactful (even though it very well could be), and that boon stripping is ineffective entirely, removing the counterplay point of the Resistance boon in the first place.

2. 3 seconds of Resistance, 10 second ICD. This is long enough to feel impactful as well as offer boonstrip counterplay opportunities, but loses some of the “on demand” nature of the trait.

Both versions, however, open up counterplay opportunities for condition builds that currently don’t exist while also making the trait useful when fighting Power builds, rather than a wasted grandmaster. They also are both useful in teamfights, where the current Diamond Skin is, again, a waste of a trait.

Supreme.3164:

As somebody said before in this thread : diamond skin is a hard counter to hard counter

The real problem is not even the condi spam which is manageable with enough practice, the issue is chill which affect the ele main profession mechanic attunement swap

The entire class is designed around attunement dancing even if this is less prevalent with tempest, ofc I understand the design point of view of having something affecting ele in particular, something like chill that completely shut down the whole profession; this was fine pre-HoT because it was not possible to maintain perma chill in any way.

FYI, Rangers and Necros could perma-chill since launch. Eles could too with a bit more effort.

But nobody did this because those builds were so focused on chill uptime that they did very little damage. Ranger, for example, has to use mainhand axe, which is pretty low damage (especially single target). Necros made less of a tradeoff, but suffered so badly from only having 3 utility slots (due to needing double-stunbreak) that Sectral Grasp couldn’t fit on in a viable build.

Reaper still makes tradeoffs, but less of them, since their Shroud provides pretty decent Chill application on its own (on 4/5 skills).

Don’t Reapers do better condition damage than Engineers against moving targets? Not just because of Torment, but also because they don’t rely on pulsing fields for any of their damage?