Guild Wars 2

Zaxares.5419:

One huge QoL change I would like for Bone Minions is for when I activate Putrid Explosion, it blows up the minion closest to the target, instead of the minion closest to me.

Either that or the lower health minion.

CureForLiving.5360:

I’d love to wield a greatsword on my necro. However if ANet is going to do this, they’re not going to do it for just one class which means more work and more time needed. Maybe in a future feature patch, but we’ll probably only see a new feature patch next year.

New weapons are Feature pack material anyway. I have no issues waiting until then.

At least in the case of the cloth rack, it seems to me that helps people who have only high level characters get some low-level cloth without buying it off the TP, since loot drops will mostly be higher level stuff.

Over the last four months, plaing mostly on my necro and life blasting a lot more often than I had been, I have yet to ever see this bug. Even against the world bosses, I still have perfect Life Blast accuracy.

On Maw, though, it might be the stupid cyclones he summons that are body-blocking your life blasts.

Dalanor.5387:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

InfernoHero.5687:

Dalanor.5387:

InfernoHero.5687:

More of my thoughts:

Just farmed the heck out of SW.

Did just fine in Soldier’s gear. Others did just fine in Berserker’s gear.

Stop fighting. Go have fun.

But you started the whole argument with this thread … Oo

I didn’t want it to turn out like this, though.

I just wanted some people to come out and talk about how to fix the two extremes (Zerk extremists and anti-meta extremists)

Probably the best way to fix it would be for some dungeon paths to have different optimal setups. They would still have a “path meta,” there’s no avoiding that, and that’s fine. However, there are things that could be done to give different dungeon paths different speedrun metas rather than 5-zerk. Mechanics that force a longer fight inherently favor other gear setups, for example. Karka, Husks, or other high-toughness mobs would result in one or two of the zerkers getting replaced with condition builds as another possibility while not artificially limiting speedruns like timed events would.

But thats not diversity it’s outright excluding certain styles and gear sets for no apparent reason. World bosses are enough for this.

I don’t see how it excludes anything. Favors different things, sure, but that’s no different than how dungeons currently work.

For example, using Husks as the trash mobs in the dungeon. You can take them down just fine in Zerker gear, but you would do so much faster if you had a condition build or two in the group. Zerk gear isn’t excluded, but now, for that path, at least, the “meta” includes condition builds.

The “variety” is gamewide meta, not pathwide meta.

InfernoHero.5687:

Dalanor.5387:

InfernoHero.5687:

More of my thoughts:

Just farmed the heck out of SW.

Did just fine in Soldier’s gear. Others did just fine in Berserker’s gear.

Stop fighting. Go have fun.

But you started the whole argument with this thread … Oo

I didn’t want it to turn out like this, though.

I just wanted some people to come out and talk about how to fix the two extremes (Zerk extremists and anti-meta extremists)

Probably the best way to fix it would be for some dungeon paths to have different optimal setups. They would still have a “path meta,” there’s no avoiding that, and that’s fine. However, there are things that could be done to give different dungeon paths different speedrun metas rather than 5-zerk. Mechanics that force a longer fight inherently favor other gear setups, for example. Karka, Husks, or other high-toughness mobs would result in one or two of the zerkers getting replaced with condition builds as another possibility while not artificially limiting speedruns like timed events would.

Everyone but Warriors has to devote half of their sigil slots to Battle sigils to use them at max efficiency. The tradeoff is pretty much the same. Eles and Engineers may not have to use a second one, but they also only get two to start with instead of the four everyone else gets.

And yet, Warrior might stacking isn’t that problematic. Mainly because Warriors comparatively have few boons (rarely more than 4).

While that’s nice info and all, I really just wanted to know if it was affected by any of those traits. The build editor isn’t perfect (for example, Ranger pets F2’s showing scaling from master’s stats, condition/boon duration caps not observed, etc.), and this would likely be a case where it’s mistaken. The toolbelt skill isn’t showing the reduced cooldown from Tools line either.

I know Shrapnel Mine isn’t affected by cooldown reduction traits because those all specify a skill type (which it lacks) or a weapon (irrelevant). However “explosion” modifying traits affect bombs, grenades, mines, and even Detonate Flame Blast (according to the build editor).

Pretty sure every gearset other than magi’s has a use in WvW and is viable there.

Magi’s is just…bad.

The Charr racial skill Shrapnel Mine is what I’m referring to. I seem to recall a patch note in the past making this skill be treated as an explosion, which would interact with some Engineer traits.

Can anyone confrim or deny if it works with:

• Shrapnel
• Forceful Explosives
• Explosive Powder
• Steel Packed Powder

I would test myself, but my engineer is Sylvari.

I think I recall seeing Marjory using something similar to Whirlwind Attack, but I did still see necro-esque animations on the auto. I’d have to replay that instance and watch more carefully.

BlackBeard.2873:

Most high-level eles and engies don’t even actively blast their fire fields, and just get might from swaps with an occasional fire-field.

Just watch someone like Denshee or Phantaram play. Most of their might comes from Battle Sigil.

What else do the top “might stacking” professions (Ele, Engie, Warrior) share: Fast weapon-swaps to use on-swap sigils with maximum effectiveness….

Fire fields are NOT the problem.

And yet, with exception of Warriors being able to use 4 on-swap sigils at max efficiency, every profession uses Battle Sigils to the exact same efficiency. The ICD on those is very important. Engies and Eles can’t activate them any more often than other professions, even though they can “swap” much more often.

Warriors can’t use Sigils of Battle more efficiently either, because the ICD is for all Sigils of Battle. What they can do that nobody else can is run different on-swap sigils on both weapon sets and use them all at max efficiency.

Sigils are definitely NOT the problem because nobody can use them to any greater effect than anyone else. Every time someone say s “but they have fast weapon swaps” they completely ignore the fact those sigils have a cooldown that limits activation to being no more often than theives, mesmers, rangers, guardians, and necromancers can activate them.

Lily.1935:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Lily.1935:

I wonder what type of weapon it will be. The way Marjory uses it suggests power. But that would be dull in my opinion. And even with a heavy power melee weapon we still wouldn’t be as good as a warrior or anything like that. Seeing as we probably wouldn’t be given a gap closer because we are necros. I’m talking PvE of course.

A gap closer is far more likely than a simple dash. Necros won’t get general mobility skills on a weapon (outside of swiftness), but gap closers are rather possible.

A pull I can see. But a teleport or leap is highly unlikely.

A teleport or leap would be unusable without a target, I would imagine. That way, it can only be used as a gap closer and not an escape.

Which is perfectly fine with me. If I wanted to run away all the time, I wouldn’t be playing a Necro.

Lily.1935:

I wonder what type of weapon it will be. The way Marjory uses it suggests power. But that would be dull in my opinion. And even with a heavy power melee weapon we still wouldn’t be as good as a warrior or anything like that. Seeing as we probably wouldn’t be given a gap closer because we are necros. I’m talking PvE of course.

A gap closer is far more likely than a simple dash. Necros won’t get general mobility skills on a weapon (outside of swiftness), but gap closers are rather possible.

darkaheart.4265:

is called dogging and avoiding the red under line circle where the field blast is at -_-

Which has zero effect on the Might stacks from blast finisher in fire field…

Seriously, have you even read a single post in the thread?

Lightsbane.9012:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Bhawb.7408:

Not sure how it’d work, since the main “drawback” to whirls (which are otherwise very strong) is that they are fairly difficult to hit. It’d be kind of crazy to have a 9x whirl that can stack that much of the whirl effect so easily compared to other whirls.

Have the whirl centered on the Necromancer, or just in front of them where the axe spins? I agree having it apply on the target would be incredibly strong (since 8x dark field whirl combo actually hurts a lot).

that would mean the axe has to be melee.

Not really. I’m sure they could code the whirl finisher to take place at the Necromancer’s location instead of the target’s.

Nope. Fort Mariner in LA still has a destroyed waypoint. All Taimi did was make it so the other waypoints were not attractive to Mordremoth. She didn’t repair anything.

lordhelmos.7623:

All participants would be rifle warriors with killshot, we would line up in rows and have bannermen + marching bands using the gemstore instruments while we shoot each other.

In the backline we would have engineers with Mortars down for cannons.

You do realize that in no war in American history did combat actually work like that? It’s a large portion of why the Americans won the revolution: the British had their “rules of engagement” which included lining up and trading volleys as their commanding officers sat off to the side. The Americans took potshots at them from behind trees, bridges, and walls while snipers took out the British officers.

TLDR: the Americans won the revolution because they fought dirty. This style transferred to the American Civil War with even deadlier results (and the invention of new weapons like the gattling gun didn’t help).

Gyler.8150:

Make spectral wall absorb projectiles?

Nah, Corrosive Poison Cloud should be the necro’s projectile negation skill. Since, you know, it’s corrosive. Plus the skill needs a reason to bring.

Bhawb.7408:

Not sure how it’d work, since the main “drawback” to whirls (which are otherwise very strong) is that they are fairly difficult to hit. It’d be kind of crazy to have a 9x whirl that can stack that much of the whirl effect so easily compared to other whirls.

Have the whirl centered on the Necromancer, or just in front of them where the axe spins? I agree having it apply on the target would be incredibly strong (since 8x dark field whirl combo actually hurts a lot).

Katary.7096:

Most of the stat-combinations are viable and only one can be optimal in any given situation.

This is true. However, what if the optimal situation for gear set A and the optimal situation for gear set B were in the same dungeon path, each taking equal proportions of the run? Do you go purely with gear A, purely with gear B, a mix of the two, or go gear set C which isn’t optimal, but performs all right in both situations? Actually swapping armor takes some time, so I doubt you would see speed runners taking two separate sets of armor and choose one of the four options I listed above. Swapping opportunities are dependent on the dungeon design itself, though.

Right now, in all dungeons, all paths, the optimal gear set is Zerker for a very significant majority of the path. What if, on a new dungeon path, that got changed?

NoTrigger.8396:

InfernoHero.5687:

The issue is when players that believe everyone should have zerker gear and everyone should focus on damage either attack, invade, or otherwise harass new and casual players.

i agree with you. but this issue has nothing to do with the game. this issue has something to do with anti social behavior. the same stupid behavior however, can be found in this thread from some anti berserker elitists.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Let me restate: All that it proves is that he has mastered the DPS race. It’s quite possible he has mastered all aspects of the game, but all that is proven by running zerk in dungeons is that he’s mastered the DPS race.

let me re-ask:

have you ever tried to solo lupicus or arah paths in offensive gear without defensive stats? and if yes, is there a dps race? is it “kill it before it can kill you” ?
if no, would you mind to try to do so and tell me about the outcome/how you feel about it when you have done it?

Technically speaking, any time you have to kill something, it’s a “kill it before it kills you” DPS race. Even when playing conditions, I think I’ve gotten maybe 5 kills after death out of several tens of thousands of mob kills. I suppose I should have put my definition of “DPS race” as “dealing enough damage to defeat your opponent before your active defense runs out”

Have I soloed an Arah path? No. That does take a level of skill I don’t posses. A very small percentage of people have actually accomplished it. Speedruns are always easier than soling a dungeon, however. Roughly 6-7 times the damage output of a single person plus at least 5 times the skill cooldowns tends to do that.

However, if you have a free recording program you like to use, could you send me a PM regarding it? I’m trying to get set up for recording/streaming myself.

Bad players that you know are the first ones to run to the forums and whine about conditions being OP when they do nothing about mitigating them.

Nova Stiker.8396:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Ghotistyx.6942:

I’m not even sure what’s being argued here anymore. There’s a lot of statements going here, some that even contradict each other in the same posts.

However, I’m of the opinion that duration stats, as a concept, are fine. Even their implementation is mostly fine. Someone mentioned Food as being an issue, and that I’ll agree with. Its rather odd to see general food ( +-40% duration) more powerful than specialized food ( +-15%). I’d change things around, so that generalist food becomes +-15% Duration, while Specialized food moves to +-30%.

Yeah, at this point I’m not even sure either. The OP seems to be rambling that every percieved balance issue is due to boon and condition duration, but has no evidence to back it up.

There is no DIRECT evidence but there is plenty of evidence to back up my claim stated in my previous posts.

But here is a fun one for you. What makes condition and boon duration good design?

An extra element of control and specialization. More variables on a single item makes that item easier to balance, not less. In addition, it lets people actually do things like Chillomancer or perma-protection Guardian builds, allowing for better build variety.

While Guardians and Necros only really make use of one of the two (boon or condition duration), everyone else enjoys the ability to meaningfully specialize in how they want to swing battle in their favor, whether through longer buffs, longer debuffs, more inherent toughness, better healing, or just more damage. Removing condition and boon duration limits the number of possible builds and decreases variety in the name of removing a balancing variable, which actually makes it harder to balance because it is one fewer point of control.

NoTrigger.8396:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

NoTrigger.8396:

this post then leads to my next question.

why should builds that revolve around the highest risk and 100% player skill not be the most optimal choice, given that the player has mastered the game?

Because he hasn’t mastered the game. He has mastered the DPS race. There is far more to the game than just that.

Except, you know, in current dungeons.

this post then again leads to another two questions.

who tells you that the player hasnt mastered the game? do you know every player of our beautiful community personally?

Let me restate: All that it proves is that he has mastered the DPS race. It’s quite possible he has mastered all aspects of the game, but all that is proven by running zerk in dungeons is that he’s mastered the DPS race.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

TLDR: I want dungeons where the most optimal route is a mix of builds, not optimized purely for group DPS. This will invlove different enemy mechanics as well as different dungeon mechanics as a whole.

You’re asking a difficult thing.

Once people complete the dungeon enough to know where everything happens, the only reason to go back that isnt to help someone who hasnt completed it/nostalgia is for the reward. At that point, you are not playing for the entertainment so much as you are playing for the reward, and the less time you can spend churning through repeat content, the better.

Forcing people to do gated content that they’ve already done numerous times is more annoying than you might be aware of, which could easily lead to more “LFZerkletsgetthisoverwith” parties that know what needs to be done to finish that dungeon as fast as possible.

If it bleeds, you can kill it. If you can kill it, hitting it harder means it dies faster.
In a game centered around “Kill this get reward lol”, People that are already experienced arent going to willingly go slower than they need to.

and again, this “killitfast” only works in specific dungeon groups.

While true, that doesn’t mean the mechanics of said dungeon need to reward 5-zerk over another setup. As I mentioned before, it’s possible to design enemies where even making it a DPS race means it’s optimal to bring in 1 or 2 condition builds, rather than 5-zerk (simply having a lot of Toughness does that).

I get that speedruns always will exist and each path, no matter how the mechanics are, will always have a “speedrun meta”. That doesn’t mean that Zerk gear has to be the most efficient set for everything in every dungeon.

NoTrigger.8396:

this post then leads to my next question.

why should builds that revolve around the highest risk and 100% player skill not be the most optimal choice, given that the player has mastered the game?

Because he hasn’t mastered the game. He has mastered the DPS race. There is far more to the game than just that.

Except, you know, in current dungeons.

In response to your edited post, I never once said how I do play my Necromancer. Just for playing Necromancer, I have a hard time getting groups. I do make my own groups when I want to do dungeons simply because it is so difficult to find a group that will accept a Necro at all. I do shift my build around a lot, but even as zerker, a necro has a tough time getting in.

dsslive.8473:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Rebound.3409:

The more interesting question is who gave the egg to the Peace guy. Either someone/thing other then the dragon gave the egg to the Master of Peace guy, or that dude is over 200 years old.

That’s why the last question of the LS was “did u see who gave it to him?”

Glint only died 7 years ago. It’s not out of the question for him to have received the egg before she died and be nothing special in the terms of lifespan.

But we know Glint is female, we know how her voice sounds and it wasn’t the heavy male voice we heard here, so while glint may have been alive when he received the egg (there is currently no timeframe for that), it wasn’t her who spoke to the master of peace and told him to protect it.

True. Unless those memory crystals distort voice or something, which is possible. I was referring more to the “200 years old” comment. There’s no reason why he would have to be anywhere near that age.

NoTrigger.8396:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Describing you perfectly. Your point?

i am not the guy who wants to force you to play something you dont like.
its the other way around.

Wow, reversed from the truth, it seems.

I want to play my necromancer in dungeons, but the elitist attitude makes that very difficult, for example. What I want is for there to be dungeon paths where 5 zerkers is not the optimal setup. Why? That not only creates openings for different builds, but it also will involve much more interesting mechanics in the dungeon. More decisions to be made and interesting mechanics will make the entire experience much better. Want to play Glass Cannon? You can, just don’t expect to set speed records in there doing it with 4 others that do the same.

For example, having a part of a dungeon path that requires holding a capture point for a certain amount of time would favor team comps other than 5 zerker because the goal isn’t “kill the enemy before it kills you.” You could still do it, sure, but it would be tougher. This is a very simple example of something that could be done to add variety to dungeon paths and make the whole experience more interesting. Another possibility would be saving prisoners, getting better rewards for having more escape. Again, it favors builds that are not zerker, but you can still accomplish it with 5-zerk.

Again, I don’t have an issue with 5-zerk being the optimal choice for a dungeon, the issue is that it’s optimal for every dungeon.

TLDR: I want dungeons where the most optimal route is a mix of builds, not optimized purely for group DPS. This will invlove different enemy mechanics as well as different dungeon mechanics as a whole.

oxtred.7658:

So you don’t mind being kicked from the parties you leeched from the meta players? As they formed the group with expectations that were being met. Or are you so special this rule doesn’t apply to you? I guess so, according to what you said.

Did I ever say I joined speedruns if I wasn’t running a meta build? No, I did not. If they’re advertsing for a speed run and I don’t feel like meeting that expectation, I don’t join. You’re doing an excellent job of shoving words into someone else’s mouth.

oxtred.7658:

If standards doesn’t matter as no one has to care about them, why are you attacking the meta? Keep yourself away from it. Until Any berserker player comes into your group and kick you, because it’s perfectly his right to do so, since he had different standards than you but it doesn’t matter. Right?

If a Zerker player comes into my group and kicks me, he is very much in the wrong (unless I was being an kitten to someone in the group or I advertised a speedrun and forgot an important aspect). My own setup doesn’t matter in this instance, because I formed the group with expectations that were being met.

NoTrigger.8396:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The issue with that is from elitists like yourself.

can you try to google the word elitist and try to realize what the difference between elitist and elite is? thank you

e·lit·ist
??l?d?st,??l?d?st/
noun
adjective: elitist; noun: elitist; plural noun: elitists

1.
a person who believes that a system or society should be ruled or dominated by an elite.
synonyms: aristocrat, blue blood;
snob
“the elitists wield too much influence”

adjective
adjective: elitist

1.
favoring, advocating, or restricted to an elite.
“the old, elitist image of the string quartet”
synonyms: aristocratic, snobbish, snobby, superior, supercilious; More

Describing you perfectly. Your point?

NoTrigger.8396:

Conncept.7638:

They would prefer to just make the new content ‘around’ that flaw, rather than fixing it.

have you ever spend a second to think about if you are maybe just wrong and your way of seeing things is wrong?
have you ever spend a second to try to realize that the devs dont need to fix what isnt broken?
have you ever spend a single second to try to realize that just because you feel something is “flawed”, it doesnt mean its a fact?

Have you?

Clearly, you’re 100% convinced that, because this is how it has been, it is clearly the way it should be. Is it broken? Not really, as the game does function properly. This doesn’t mean it is not flawed. Dungeon tokens taking up inventory space wasn’t broken, but it was flawed. The old transmutation stones worked perfectly, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t have issues.

The reason why the devs are developing new content “around the issue” is because fixing it in existing content requires a complete enemy overhaul. That is far more work than is necessary when the content functions just fine. The issue with that is from elitists like yourself. New content they have to develop from scratch anyway so they might as well improve upon earlier stuff and actually try to solve the flaws.

NoTrigger.8396:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I think I understand it a lot better than you do.

No, where you see true skill is when you can’t avoid everything. Then you see the skill of picking what you avoid instead of just saying “lol, enemy’s attacking, let’s avoid it completely.”

That said, being unable to avoid everything will require lessened damage per-hit from the mobs to keep unmitigated DPS about the same. It will, however, bring out real skill.

read your first sentence, and then the others. you do realize that something is not right?

“lol, enemy’s attacking, let’s tank it completely.”
fixed this for you.

So, what you’re saying, is that avoiding absolutely everything is somehow more skilled than choosing which X of Y (when Y>X) attacks to actually avoid and which to just take? One involves decision-making. The other is a simple If-then statement. Last I checked, skill was about correct decisions, which means there actually has to be a decision made.

NoTrigger.8396:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The only way this “zerker” meta will ever see a shakeup is enemy overhauls. I realize this is a lot of work, but it really does need to happen.

what needs to happen is overhauls of the way people like you are thinking.
and this post is proof that you dont understand the gw2 combat system.

if you think passive damage mitigation > player skill then gw2 is probably not for you.

I think I understand it a lot better than you do. Passive mitigation is lesser than active defense. Always has been, always will be. Taking 0 damage is always better than taking a greatly lessened amount. However, active defense is only ever balanced if it eventually fails. In current dungeons , this doesn’t happen. Active defense outsrips incoming attacks by a significant margin.

No, where you see true skill is when you can’t avoid everything. Then you see the skill of picking what you avoid instead of just saying “lol, enemy’s attacking, let’s avoid it completely.”

That said, being unable to avoid everything will require lessened damage per-hit from the mobs to keep unmitigated DPS about the same. It will, however, bring out real skill.

Patxiku.9312:

Shaogin.2679:

Engineer with Mesmer clones.

Imagine if the clones where able to copy your abilities. And know add the bomb kit to that. Michael Bay would be proud

I think you can have bomb kit clones right now anyway. Reflect Ether Clone with Magnetic Shield/Toss Elixer U, then switch to bomb kit before the projectile hits the Mesmer.

Talyn.3295:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Lifestealer.4910:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

NoTrigger.8396:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Why should “all glass cannon” be the most efficient way to run every dungeon?

because
1. its the way with the highest risk involved
2. its the only way that makes full use of the combat system
3. its the only way that 100% depends on player skill, teamwork and nothing else.

1. Almost true. When you kill enemies before they can even fire off their third attack (and a GC ele can even tank the first two), not so much. That’s pretty close to the lowest risk.
2. Well, no it doesn’t. The “combat system” involves a lot of parts that never see use in speedruns currently, such as conditions, boon removal, snares, etc.. Balanced groups actually make full use of the combat system.
3. Not so much “player skill” as “rotations”, but I will agree with teamwork. Enemies in dungeons are currently too simplistic for player skill to be a large factor. It relies more on the limitations of enemies rather than player skill.

As an aside, has anyone done speedruns of Aetherpath? I’m curious about that one because it does feature more challenging enemies.

Anyone can pull off some wierd scenarios to make X look bad.

How about fighting lupicus zerker vs cleric or pvt gear?.. see which is higher risk? hint hint, its not the cleric or pvt gear

Now that they nerfed Firey Greatsword, true. The sub-15 second kills, not so much.

Again, I don’t have an issue with 5 glass cannons being the most efficient group for a dungeon. I have an issue with it being the most efficient for every dungeon.

If by efficient you mean fast then no, nothing should beat out a high damage, high risk, high rewards.

Why would anything else be more efficient? Zerker gear should be the most efficient for every dungeon because it allows for a faster run. Outside of a solo run where conditions will allow for fast kills because no one else is ruining your condition stacks.

Any gear will allow you do clear any content. But why anyone would think that Solider (or any gear with defensive stats should) gear should be more efficient then zerker ( or any gear with purely offensive stats)gear is beyond me.

Ideally, enemies would be dangerous enough to force glass cannons to back off frequently. More durable characters may have lower damage output, but be more consistent as well. Because AI in dungeons don’t use defensive abilities and attack so slowly that Blinding Powder shuts them all down, this isn’t the case. They die in the initial burst or they don’t land anything in the time it takes for the rest of the group to finish them off. The risk is actually lower in many cases if you go glass cannon because your active defenses hold out long enough.

Consider in PvP. 5 glass cannons is not the ideal setup there because players defend themselves and aren’t completely shut down by blind because they attack more frequently than you can blind. They also move out of the blind fields. However, glass cannons do have a place there in efficient teams. They just aren’t the be-all-end-all like in dungeons. In PvE, it’s Zerk or go home. PvP and WvW, there are a lot more in viable options and an all zerk group is likely to get demolished.

Ideally, dungeon enemies would have mechanics that prevent all-glass cannon from being very effective. This does not mean that you couldn’t aim for 3 glass cannon and 2 more durable, though. For example, a dungeon featuring lots of mobs with very high Toughness would push out Zerker for Rabid, Carrion, or Sinister for at least one party slot. Why? Because stack & smack Zerker doesn’t kill them as fast as a condition damage build would. This is one, very simple thing that can be done to immedietly open up more versatile compositions.

The only way this “zerker” meta will ever see a shakeup is enemy overhauls. I realize this is a lot of work, but it really does need to happen.

Rebound.3409:

The more interesting question is who gave the egg to the Peace guy. Either someone/thing other then the dragon gave the egg to the Master of Peace guy, or that dude is over 200 years old.

That’s why the last question of the LS was “did u see who gave it to him?”

Glint only died 7 years ago. It’s not out of the question for him to have received the egg before she died and be nothing special in the terms of lifespan.

Lifestealer.4910:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

NoTrigger.8396:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Why should “all glass cannon” be the most efficient way to run every dungeon?

because
1. its the way with the highest risk involved
2. its the only way that makes full use of the combat system
3. its the only way that 100% depends on player skill, teamwork and nothing else.

1. Almost true. When you kill enemies before they can even fire off their third attack (and a GC ele can even tank the first two), not so much. That’s pretty close to the lowest risk.
2. Well, no it doesn’t. The “combat system” involves a lot of parts that never see use in speedruns currently, such as conditions, boon removal, snares, etc.. Balanced groups actually make full use of the combat system.
3. Not so much “player skill” as “rotations”, but I will agree with teamwork. Enemies in dungeons are currently too simplistic for player skill to be a large factor. It relies more on the limitations of enemies rather than player skill.

As an aside, has anyone done speedruns of Aetherpath? I’m curious about that one because it does feature more challenging enemies.

Anyone can pull off some wierd scenarios to make X look bad.

How about fighting lupicus zerker vs cleric or pvt gear?.. see which is higher risk? hint hint, its not the cleric or pvt gear

Now that they nerfed Firey Greatsword, true. The sub-15 second kills, not so much.

Again, I don’t have an issue with 5 glass cannons being the most efficient group for a dungeon. I have an issue with it being the most efficient for every dungeon.

NoTrigger.8396:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Why should “all glass cannon” be the most efficient way to run every dungeon?

because
1. its the way with the highest risk involved
2. its the only way that makes full use of the combat system
3. its the only way that 100% depends on player skill, teamwork and nothing else.

1. Almost true. When you kill enemies before they can even fire off their third attack (and a GC ele can even tank the first two), not so much. That’s pretty close to the lowest risk.
2. Well, no it doesn’t. The “combat system” involves a lot of parts that never see use in speedruns currently, such as conditions, boon removal, snares, etc.. Balanced groups actually make closer to full use of the combat system.
3. Not so much “player skill” as “rotations”, but I will agree with teamwork. Enemies in dungeons are currently too simplistic for player skill to be a large factor. It relies more on the limitations of enemies rather than player skill.

As an aside, has anyone done speedruns of Aetherpath? I’m curious about that one because it does feature more challenging enemies.

Jana.6831:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Where did I get that the game is focused on build variety and teamwork? Perhaps from ANet’s actions. A lot of their balance changes have been with the explicit intent of “improving build variety”. The fact they nerfed crit damage also suggests that “all glass cannon all the time” is not how they want the game to function (plus the fact they explicitly said it was the first step to reduce the dominance of glass cannon in PvE).

Most changes are because of pvp and wvw, I don’t know why they nerfed crit damage that drastically as it means that in pvp/wvw condi is now “OP”, so they will have to nerf that eventually and knowing anet they won’t tone it down a notch but go full frontal, then they will have to nerf crit/power again and so on.

WvW perhaps, but in PvP, it intentionally remained the same. Crit damage in PvP is the same as it was at launch.

One of their main targets with the crit damage-> Ferocity change was amulets, rings, and trinkets. These pieces had hugely disproportional crit damage stats before the change (exotic zerker amulet, for example, had more crit damage than exotic zerker chest, legs, and helm combined, but only had ~1/3 of the Power stat, despite Power being the primary stat). Indeed, these pieces saw the heaviest drop in effectiveness with other gear being almost identical in performance.

Stramatus.5219:

Yeah, there’s a lot referencing ritualists. Would be interesting if something like that happened, but seems a bit odd to me since it is a Canthan class and we are no where near Cantha currently.

Plus the fact the Ritualist got subsumed by Guardian and Necromancer thematically and by Engineers mechanically.

Dalanor.5387:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

“The Problem” is that the most efficient team to run any dungeon is always pure glass cannon setups.

As it should happen.

Given the game’s focus on build variety and teamwork, this seems out of place. The most efficient group should be a mix of gear stats and builds.

Where do you get that?

Why should “all glass cannon” be the most efficient way to run every dungeon?

Where did I get that the game is focused on build variety and teamwork? Perhaps from ANet’s actions. A lot of their balance changes have been with the explicit intent of “improving build variety”. The fact they nerfed crit damage also suggests that “all glass cannon all the time” is not how they want the game to function (plus the fact they explicitly said it was the first step to reduce the dominance of glass cannon in PvE).

Teamwork has always been a very heavily stated goal in the game. If you’re questioning where I got that, I have to wonder if you actually know anything about the game.

@Tim: yeah, I noticed the lack of Retaliation in Silverwastes. A shame, because that really is a mechanic that would force a meta change for efficiency. Current speedrun groups would kill themselves against enemies with Retaliation, so the meta would change to at least bring reliable boonstripping. Mesmers would be popular again. Necros still wouldn’t.

Disastro.4086:

Necros are in such an incredibly sad position comparatively to others at the moment that it is truly mind boggling.

Considering that I, a necro main since GW1, ranked Necro #9 on “most desirable dungeon profession?”

Yeah. The profession is pretty much right in PvP and WvW, but we need tons of help in PvE.

DarkWasp.7291:

Leamas.5803:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Honestly, I don’t even have a problem with the most efficient team for a dungeon being pure glass cannon DPS race. I have an issue with every dungeon filling that description.

Randomly generated dungeon maps would resolve much of this…no preset place to stack, no memorizing paths. I’d personally find this enjoyable, though I’d venture it would cause most dungeons to become quite abandoned since they’d always be much more challenging.

They just need guaranteed desirable rewards.

I think he’s getting on at the “randomly generated” part, rather than increased difficulty. It works in Diablo because of the overall simple map structure. Dungeon maps in GW2 are far more complex and randomly generated dungeons would almost certainly be rife with bugs and not really function.

Honestly, I don’t even have a problem with the most efficient team for a dungeon being pure glass cannon DPS race. I have an issue with every dungeon filling that description.

KngGilgamesh.3481:

Hey guys, I’m not seeing much rhyme or reason in this discussion. so can you tell me as concisely as you can:
What is the Problem?
Why/How is it a Problem? and
What is your suggestion?

“The Problem” is that the most efficient team to run any dungeon is always pure glass cannon setups. Given the game’s focus on build variety and teamwork, this seems out of place. The most efficient group should be a mix of gear stats and builds.

My suggestion is to make mobs more like players. Faster attack speeds, kiting, evasion, boon use (Might, Stability, Retaliation Protection), boon stripping, condition use, condition removal, healing, etc. Newer mob types are already incorporating these elements, but aside from Aetherblades, none of them are in any dungeons.

I’m still quite confident that the meta for such a dungeon would include a condition build to manage the husks, menders, and leechers. Husks because even Zerkers do laughable damage to them, Menders and Leechers, because poison will drastically shorten the fight and right now the only dungeon meta build that even has poison is d/X thief. Unless I’m mistaken and engineers do actually use grenade kit in their meta build.

Those three enemy types are ones that currently have no parallel in any dungeon path. As such, I’m not sure the current dungeon meta will be the appropriate one when they’re introduced.

AlliedKhajiit.2794:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

AlliedKhajiit.2794:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

hybrid.5027:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Capable of winning? Sure. Capable of winning faster than some other combination? Not so much.

Why is Zerker not the stat set in WvW and PvP? Players usually have lower health totals than mobs, so it would stand to reason that Zerker should cut through them even faster. But it doesn’t. The reasons are things that players have that most mobs don’t. Rapid attacks, evasions, mobility, conditions, high armor relative to health, boons, and a mix of attacks. Mordrem have all of these as well. Risen don’t.

Would there be a meta in an all Mordrem dungeon? Sure. I’m betting it won’t be 5 zerkers, though. 1-3, perhaps, but not 5.

No, it would be all 5.

FYI: I have done Dredge fractal level 80 (when that was possible) with 5 berserkers. It was more of a challenge than your mordrem dungeon would be, and there would have been exactly 0 benefit of anyone wearing tankier gear.

How many Mordrem have you fought? They are way tougher than Dredge unless you completely base your survival on blind spam (which multiple mordrem are quite resistant to thanks to rapid-hit attacks and being mobile while blindspam is based on stationary fields). Dredge have two notable types: the burrowing and the boonspammers. Not that difficult to deal with both. They are also slow attackers.

5 dredge with even proportions or 5 mordrem of mixed types. I’d choose to fight the dredge every time. You wouldn’t have 10+ stacks of Torment and don’t need to be dodging immobilize from the guys that take more damage from your on-crit bleeds than the actual attacks, be worried about retaliation, or needing poison just to keep them from healing back up.

Husks alone necessitate bringing a condition build for a speedy clear. Still would only be one, but that immedietly means you don’t have 5 zerkers

Are you even aware of what a Fractal scale 80 is even like? Mobs hit hard. VERY hard. Far harder than anything in a regular dungeon. FAR harder.

And when you’re avoiding everything anyway due to low mob attack speeds, how hard they hit is irrelevant.

Yes, you have to be careful to not pull the whole room on you, but I can easily see a run where you just don’t get hit at all if you have a couple thieves for stealthing the switches and bomb/door break rooms. Back then, you also had the “stand on the clown car wheel” trick where you literally never got attacked by a champ and a ton of mobs. I know there’s a challenge. But what made that a challenge and what makes a hypothetical mordrem dungeon a challenge are two different things.

I hope you also know that the amount of mobs in a fractal scale with the level of the fractal. There’s WAY more mobs in a current fotm 50 than there is in a fotm 1. So your “lol so slow hitting attacks” rebuttle is pretty much redundant, when there’s 40 mobs to deal with, when a single hit from any of those mobs pretty much downs you instantly. I’ve fought the mordrem before on full zerker classes. They’re not difficult.

Apples to oranges. Dungeons are filled with elites, which very, very rarely have we seen on the Mordrem, and I’ve never seen more than one at a time. We’ve never seen Mordrem scaled to level 80 fractals either.

Careful pulling of the mobs does render their numbers pointless other than time. Sure, at fractal 80 those Dredge would hit stupid hard, but when you’re fighting 1-4 at a time, they still weren’t that difficult. Scorpion Wire is amazing for that purpose.

Better comparison: fight a group of Mordrem in Silverwastes, then fight a group of Dredge in Frostgorge Sound. The dredge will go down way faster with less difficulty.

Plus, I believe the numbers scaling with fractal level was added after Fractured release, so level 80 fractals had the same numbers of dredge as level 1 (since the number scaling happened after the cap dropped to 50).

AlliedKhajiit.2794:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

hybrid.5027:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Capable of winning? Sure. Capable of winning faster than some other combination? Not so much.

Why is Zerker not the stat set in WvW and PvP? Players usually have lower health totals than mobs, so it would stand to reason that Zerker should cut through them even faster. But it doesn’t. The reasons are things that players have that most mobs don’t. Rapid attacks, evasions, mobility, conditions, high armor relative to health, boons, and a mix of attacks. Mordrem have all of these as well. Risen don’t.

Would there be a meta in an all Mordrem dungeon? Sure. I’m betting it won’t be 5 zerkers, though. 1-3, perhaps, but not 5.

No, it would be all 5.

FYI: I have done Dredge fractal level 80 (when that was possible) with 5 berserkers. It was more of a challenge than your mordrem dungeon would be, and there would have been exactly 0 benefit of anyone wearing tankier gear.

How many Mordrem have you fought? They are way tougher than Dredge unless you completely base your survival on blind spam (which multiple mordrem are quite resistant to thanks to rapid-hit attacks and being mobile while blindspam is based on stationary fields). Dredge have two notable types: the burrowing and the boonspammers. Not that difficult to deal with both. They are also slow attackers.

5 dredge with even proportions or 5 mordrem of mixed types. I’d choose to fight the dredge every time. You wouldn’t have 10+ stacks of Torment and don’t need to be dodging immobilize from the guys that take more damage from your on-crit bleeds than the actual attacks, be worried about retaliation, or needing poison just to keep them from healing back up.

Husks alone necessitate bringing a condition build for a speedy clear. Still would only be one, but that immedietly means you don’t have 5 zerkers

Are you even aware of what a Fractal scale 80 is even like? Mobs hit hard. VERY hard. Far harder than anything in a regular dungeon. FAR harder.

And when you’re avoiding everything anyway due to low mob attack speeds, how hard they hit is irrelevant. Part of the reason why people see the Zerker meta as problematic is because active defense is more than plentiful enough to outstrip actual incoming attacks. Just too few attacks coming in, so you can completely avoid getting hit in most situations.

Yes, you have to be careful to not pull the whole room on you, but I can easily see a run where you just don’t get hit at all if you have a couple thieves for stealthing the switches and bomb/door break rooms. Back then, you also had the “stand on the clown car wheel” trick where you literally never got attacked by a champ and a ton of mobs. I know there’s a challenge. But what made that a challenge and what makes a hypothetical mordrem dungeon a challenge are two different things.

Gyler.8150:

Blind spam OP, nerf it to the ground!!!

Mordrem master mob!

I assume this is directed at me, but most dungeon groups don’t use blind spam because it requires a thief (not necessarily a bad thing) and it’s worthless against bosses or dredge.

Mordrem are more difficult than earlier mobs because ANet has learned a lot. You can see the progression in difficulty from mobs at launch, through Karka (high armor, vets have some nasty attacks), then Molten Alliance (boons and CC mixed with hard-hitting attacks being common), Aetherblades (strong mix of blocks, evades, CC, and boons and Confusion), Toxic Alliance (rapid attacks, evades, reflects, blocks, conditions) and now Mordrem (basically everything but blocks).

It shouldn’t be surprising I feel Mordrem are the strongest enemy type because they’ve inherited ANet’s learning from prior enemy types in their design.