Guild Wars 2

zaxon.6819:

just like everyone said.. if you cry about the torment buff. you will get mesmer nerfed.. not torment itself taken away.. gj mesmer community.

It wasn’t a matter of IF. It was a matter of when and how bad.

IE was supposedly getting fixed so the staff/scepter PU builds were getting a serious buff. People already cried about condi PU all the time. Without a nerf to some part of the build, the crying was going to intensify no matter what —> major nerfs. At least now, the nerfs seem fair to me. The unavoidable clone deaths now being dodgable etc. is 100% justified. PU although a definite nerf, seems fair to me.

Thanks for the numbers!

@Rabid,
Runes of Strength and Travelers are not really for PvE dungeons for mesmers. Travelers is really convenient open world and wvw to move around but pretty bad for damage.

The meta mesmer builds rely almost exclusively on their team for might as the trait/weapon setup has zero sources of might so the % duration is a complete waste. If for some reason, you consistently find yourself in groups that lack any might while fighting enemies that require no reflects, then sigil of battle can be an ok since it buffs both your damage and your phantasms while % modifiers only buff your dmg and reflects. Since my mesmer and ele can share armor, I’ve toyed with the runes of strength+battle+inspiration as a group DPS boost in terrible groups but I’ve found it just better to swap to my ele in those situations.

Since gold seems like an issue for you, get 2 exotic sets from dungeons or the TP (WvW armor can’t be salvaged). Runes of ranger and centaur are cheap and some of the best stuff for mesmer damage and speed.

zaxon.6819:

even with a full team of condi pu mesmers.. do you think you will see 25 stacks of torment on anyone??

a staff clones with ie will actually be able to put 25 stacks of bleed on a target.

so you need to look at what the weapons can do and then compare that to the other weapon.. not compare the conditions 1 for 1 when there is no way to stack them at the same rate.

Shadowcat.4397:

With staff clons you will have less torment, but u get burning(that do more dmg then tormen), bleeding(that do more dmg then tormen), and Vulnerability.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Oversimplifed but 25 bleeds+burning vs 25 torment on a moving target, the torment does ~20% more damage so no, staff clones are not necessarily stronger.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

At first glance, a 2.5 second and 4 second base torment sounded really OP to me but I realized I was thinking too much with Runes of torment/koi cakes etc for 100% torment duration. In PvP, I think it’s actually fine for the scepter and any non PU build would rightfully deserve some buff to scepter auto.

Seriously, is reading comprehension that hard? The 25 stacks is for WvW and PvE. Yes, people can use condi removal and -condi duration food but not everyone does.

With the Sc2 having 100% buff to duration of 16 seconds and IF the trait CD worked on them, a 7-10 second CD would be able to fluctuate between 5,10,15 stacks. Then add the clones (~7) and auto attacks (~3) and rune procs (2).

Nowhere did I say that the staff is now useless.

As for your silly scenario, an enemy puts down an AOE that can hit 5 targets. 5 mesmers Sc2 -> 25 stacks of torment. >_>

I did say “it sounded really OP but then I realized…” It was mostly an excersise in seeing how far it could be taken. My main concern is that people will complain —> nerfs regardless of it not being OP.

For PvE, condis are still usually not viable but this does help a bit since torment isn’t stacked often so your group won’t override your strong condition. In groups that kite bosses (non-meta groups) it actually does comparable dmg to zerker builds.

Is it going to be stronger than staff clones? Not necessarily but it’s pretty easy to run from a staff mesmer. The bounce only matters if you are within 600 range so even with the fix to IE, it’s easy to half the dmg that a staff build does by running away. Then run a bit more and they just won’t catch you. My example has torment and bleeds as baseline. It’s a clone death build that can add confusion, cripple, weakness, more bleeds and vulnerability as well. Poison from sigil. Add a torch for some burning spike if you feel you need it. It can hit upwards of 6k torment per second on a running target while also having a ranged cripple, stun, daze and pull and practically perma 30% combat move speed. As I said, it will be hard to run from. I happened to link a scepter only mainhand but toss a staff in there as well if you want since both are condi but one punishes ppl that stay and one punishes ppl that run.

Oversimplifed but 25 bleeds+burning vs 25 torment on a moving target, the torment does ~20% more damage so no, staff clones are not necessarily stronger.

Again, I’m not saying it’s OP. It’s a strong buff though. I think it’s too easy to pull off. People will complain and I foresee nerfs happening. I would prefer a more elegant buff to scepter but I think this is saddly the best we will get.

Azo, I don’t think your comparisons are really fair. The scepter works well enough in clone death builds which other classes don’t have (SI is a bonus as well). The scepter itself can also spike pretty hard with torment so you cant just compare auto attacks. It’s why it’s used with the staff in condi builds to finish someone off.

Anyhow, both of these weapons are now getting buffed with more condi dmg. Personally, condi PU builds don’t really give me problems but there is so much whining already about it. This will cause more whining. It doesn’t matter that there was like 1 mesmer in ToL or that it wasn’t even a condi mesmer, the masses whining about condi mesmers WILL result in massive nerfs to something. Saddly that something will probably not be the scepter or staff auto attacks/clones. On a side note, these changes make me think even more that I want the old mimic to stay!

At first glance, a 2.5 second and 4 second base torment sounded really OP to me but I realized I was thinking too much with Runes of torment/koi cakes etc for 100% torment duration. In PvP, I think it’s actually fine for the scepter and any non PU build would rightfully deserve some buff to scepter auto.

However, 5 seconds of torment on clone attacks in a clone death build that could roll in dire gear… with just scepter 2, clone on dodge, MI, and auto, a torment build could quickly (~4 seconds) hit 18 stacks of torment and start to maintain 20-25 depending on spamming a heal for torment and if the scepter CD traits actually work with Scepter 2 post patch. Then factor in clone death traits. If using rabid gear, add ~6 bleeds with the clones. The scepter auto itself and a duelist(if more bleeds wanted instead of torment) will still hit for some power dmg and the dps of this build can start to reach 8-9k solo with little ramp up time vs moving targets. I usually tell people to just walk away from condi mesmers but
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQRAra7dlknpIt1oxMNMrRSpxYycm5UfRqAK9Jl3AA-TFyCABAcCAU4JAglyPm3f4iDCwlq/on+hxUCSKAIWWB-w
It’s not going to be easy to walk away from this. Acquire a givers weapon or sigil of malice if you want to drop the 2 domination for more chaos/inspiration. Dire or rabid for more tankiness or bleeds. This is going to cause whining in WvW which goes back to my prior concern of this will cause nerfs in the end.

For PvE, it won’t be ideal but why are condis bad in PvE? Bleeds don’t stack well, that’s not a problem now. The ramp up time is relatively quick. The enemies will have to move so that’s not ideal but for meta groups, but this actually seems like an ok build for PvE pug dungeon stuff and could also work for soloing a few bosses with heavy armor.

Why is this in the mesmer section?

Anyhow, I thought you were going to mention that the #1 and #2 were in combat projectile finishers (1 or 3) although they do no dmg themselves so we have a consistent finisher. Yay! >.>

First thing that came to mind was a 2/6/0/0/6 aoe daze machine+halting strike for wvw + mantra of pain. Would have to be backline but then I realized triumphant and harmonious and imbued diversion cant happen. Triumphant and Imbued diversion for a guaranteed GS4 burst then aoe daze? or an extra charge on pain, distraction and maybe a full mantra bar so… 2/6/4/2/0 as a backline. Full mantras, lots of condi clears and decent stability/stun break. Aoe dmg along on pain and halting strike OR 0/6/6/2/0 for the aoe immob and condi? Maybe even drop menders purity since resolve is on the bar and go 2/6/6/0/0. Lots of mantra charging though… and screw veil botting.

Is there seriously no buff to torch phantasm or disrupter’s sustainment? No nerfs to PU with the buffs to condi? Something big has got to be missing.

Mimic sucks. Anyone want to petition to keep the old version? 30 second CD is terrible. Will have same aiming issues as thievery and won’t be able to hit reliably.

cyyrix.6105:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

cyyrix.6105:

Fay.2357:

A 30s base cooldown on the new mimic is too long for sure. It’ll need to be at 25 or 20 for me to ever put it on my bar again.

Torment on scepter autoattack is bad. This will make several condition builds crazy strong, and this means we’ll get hit with heavy nerfs in the future.

The change to mantra of pain, however, means that mesmers now have a potentially effective way to contribute to aoe damage in a large group fight. Aoe daze mantra could potentially contribute to this as well. I look forward to seeing how they play out.

Classic Pyro. Complains about nerfs. When buffed, complains that the buff is too strong.

He’s not complaining about the buff per se. He’s complaining that the buff is gonna lead to overnerfs, once people start flooding the forums crying about PU Mesmer being OP again.

But maybe that’s actually a good thing then, because we’ll be over-nerfed, and that will lead to more buffs! But wait, maybe then we’ll be over buffed which will lead to more nerfs!

Over nerfing is never a good thing. It tends to destroy build diversity and Anet tends to not go back on their changes so the build diversity never comes back. He is only complaining about a bad buff (makine us too OP) by the way. He’s saying the mantra changes are interesting.

Arewn.2368:

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

I’m pretty sure that the distortion for phantasms is really just for the berserker in wvw so Mesmers can get a tag in before it dies 1 second later. Or maybe using a different phantasm to shatter in a zerg. If going 6 dueling then 3 mantra charges will be the PvE choice.

How are you going to get a phantasm tag in with this skill if this skill requires that you already tagged something and it died?
Phantasms getting the distortion didn’t seem like that great of an idea to begin with to me, but if they were going to go for it they should have made it last 3 seconds just like the mesmer.

Pause the live stream at 19:52. “Your phantasms gain distortion briefly on creation.” You can also see the effects on the phantasms if you look closely.

Xyonon.3987:

Well as a PvE fotm and dungeon mesmer, I am extremly excited about the mantra changes.

Mantra of Pain will hit 5 !!! targets wich is extremly high damage with 3 mantras, ON RANGE. In other words: GS becomes viable. You don’t have to use AA, you can use mantra of pain instead. With this patch the GS is immediately superior as a aoe wapon compared to a pistol or sword offhand. I just wonder how much the difference of a 3 hit sword aa chain to a kitten mantra chain is.

Mantra of Distraction hits 3 targets. Daze, wich applies 5-8 stacks vuln for 10+ sec. Also – GOD IT’S A kitten LOW CD AOE DAZE!!! It’s amazing!

The only thing I cannot agree with is distortion for phantasms. 1 sec is useless most of the time, since some are first walking, others like duelist and warden take too long ot make use of it. Especially warden, I bet he’ll be invulnerable instead of reflecting …

I’m pretty sure that the distortion for phantasms is really just for the berserker in wvw so Mesmers can get a tag in before it dies 1 second later. Or maybe using a different phantasm to shatter in a zerg. If going 6 dueling then 3 mantra charges will be the PvE choice.

With FGS being nerfed, vulnerability is going to be much harder to spike to 25 and people will have to pay attention to it. Distraction will be nice aoe vulnerability and can potentially proc halting strike. (I’m annoyed that ele’s are getting easy mode with lightning rod though and they didn’t change halting strike for Mesmers.) With this in mind, I still think sword auto + sword 4 for daze is probably going to be a better option than greatsword for PvE stacked enemies since they wont die as fast as before and mesmers will be able to stack 15-24 vulnerability + auto attacks in an aoe and keep enemies locked down for more than 3 seconds if timed well on the dazes.

For aoe situations, GS 2 isn’t that great as it basically only hits two enemy targets. GS2+F1 is a maybe depending on how short the fight is. So can GS3 and GS4 be consistently used as filler for the ~3 seconds of discharging pain? No. Therefore, I still think sword/sword/warden is better filler unless you need ranged shatter fodder. If anything this change enforces the idea of not bringing a GS for PvE mesmers. If you need to fall back, just spam MoP and phantasms until you are ready to melee again.

If it was an “offensive phase retreat” would it require a target? I really hope not but given how some illusion summoning skills fail without a target this might be the case.

Also what does the sword clone do if swap is still a mechanic? Sit there doing nothing? Slowly walk over to our target so that swap moves us no where?

If this rework does really happen I’d prefer iLeap not initially spawning a clone. Then have some functionality like thief sword 2 that allows us to move back to our original location. It could require a hit to proc. Make it turn into a phase leap so that we can leap in and out and spawn a clone on our way out.

What happens to the cripple/immob though? and this wouldn’t necessarily be ideal for shatter IP spike if you have to leap away to immob and spawn a clone.

It won’t do dmg for us but I still want that 0.1 seconds of fear that will work with clones just to mess with ppl as fear from different sources spin them around.

Why would the CD stay the same after a complete redesign?

A good bunker (or just general player) isn’t going to spam all boon skills (except for an ecto eater) so while steal ALL the boons sounds enticing, it’s not really going to happen. And for the few cases you get a huge list of boons, most of those are going to fall off within 2-5 seconds. The big steal would be long duration might/fury that mostly come from blast finishers or signet of rage. This puts the mesmer on a gamble of whether to build around this utility or not because it won’t function that well vs most builds unless it has a really short CD like 10 seconds and an instant cast. Signet of inspiration also exacerbates the problem by taking up 1 more slot that may also become useless and also just having too long of a CD. If mimic does have a cast time and you also use inspiration, most boons will be gone by the time you can actually share them.

And if you do copy a huge list of amazing boons and duration, that just means your enemy is in beastly mode with all skills on CD and that hasn’t changed. It would have been better to remove/steal the boons to benefit your whole team. If you are running boon shatter and mimic, then those two skills are also at odds with each other unless again, the CD for mimic becomes really short/instant cast to compete with your burst of boon removal.

How would stuff like retal stack? Does it count the boons stolen as a single stack or would the game actually keep track of the fact that you stole several stacks of retal? Cause if it counted as a single stack then maybe mimic+ thievery could get some use by effectively doubling the boon duration and at least with blink, you could trait 3 manipulations and also have a bit of condi removal. That’s the only way I see this working in niche builds that wouldn’t hold up in tPvP.

On a side note, I look forward to mimicing some weird boons in PvE. It’s what let mesmers turn into elementalist drakes in gw1. I wouldn’t even be surprised if the mesmer was able to mimic an enemy that was just turned into a moa >.< and get some bird on bird action.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:September_2014_Feature_Pack_Combat_log_preview.jpg

The preview shows unsuspecting foe healing the warrior for 312 (400 per healing signet tick) after every 3 ticks of healing signet.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unsuspecting_Foe

More changes incoming?

That’s really odd. Either something changed from last year when I tested it or mesmer boon stripping is somehow different than boon corruption order? That seems like an unnecessary complication that the Devs would not have programmed.
Found it:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Shattered-Conditions-how-does-it-work/first#post2365705

If the guardian had only 4 boons (hold the line/stand your ground) the MW numbers were 56/82/84. I think this means the first shatter got 1 boon then did reduced dmg. The next shatter got rid of the protection so the last two shatters hit for max dmg. It was also possible to hit 84/82/84 depending on which shout the guardian used first.

Yeah, I definitly noticed something different a year ago. So odd that mesmers and necros would be different. I’ll try and test this with the mesmer to see if it’s also changed.

robertul.3679:

OP makes thread about team construction and someone posts the mandatory condition war solo. Great time to be alive.

Because people don’t always understand why condi builds are not optimal in groups. Theoretical DPS is fine for an armor/build that gets at least 700 toughness over a full zerker. The practical DPS due to condi stack limits is not. Solo videos are a good showcase of the lower limits of the theoretical DPS which in theory can be further boosted by team support. Since you have people like bhawb talking about 70 bleed stacks, these videos need to be posted to counter those arguments.

Lily.1935:

More on topic, you say they wont and history has shown us that they are both willing to make changes and will go back on what they said if needed. And in this case, it is needed. You can disagree with me on it being needed. I’m not a lone person who has this opinion.

Man, woman, llama or lily pad… just drop it and stay on topic. It is the internet and a thick skin will go a long way.

History… has shown that the game supported trait resets in PvP from beta. The devs felt that functionality was not good for PvE/WvW for various reasons. They changed their mind and a relatively simple switch was made to implement something that already existed .

History has shown that the devs have repeatedly mentioned that there is a technical limitation of the condi cap. (I only linked 1 but there are others if you googlefu harder.) That’s why I mentioned the idea of just removing easy bleed stacks on zerker builds. It doesn’t solve the problem completely but it can alleviate some of it.

Did you ever look into how the boons were applied? As in gw1 worked on a first in last out system and I suspect that gw2 does something similar as it is a modified engine. However, some boons stacking in duration is what makes it complicated to test.

It’s been a long time since I actually tested this on a mesmer but I recall the order that the guardian shouted his boons become important for which one I removed on shatter.

http://dragonseason.com/Front/tabid/124/EntryId/212/Lunch-with-Colin-Johanson-Part-III.aspx

There’s a cap on condition stacks of 25. In a scenario where you have two thieves attacking a boss and one of them can achieve a stack of 25 by themselves, the other one essentially becomes useless because they’ve got nothing to stack on. Is anything being done to address that to make them less redundant?

Colin: Currently no. Interesting statistic for you: every condition in the game costs server bandwidth. ‘Cause we have to track how often the condition is running, what the duration of that condition is and what the stack is. So the more stacks we allow, the more expensive it gets because we’re tracking every additional stack on there. And so we could say, you can have infinite stacks. Number one: that becomes really unbalanced. But number two: it’s actually extremely expensive for us, on a performance basis. That’s one of those weird, kind of back-end server issues that can help make game designer decisions regardless of what you want to do with it.

Lily.1935:

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Maybe, I’ve just missed someone posting this before but wouldn’t the more elegant solution be to change all the minor traits that cause bleeds? I’m pretty sure the devs have swapped a minor and major trait before. If someone wanted the bleed on crit major, they would just have to actively chose it. A condi build could kindly ask a teammate to swap it without destroying an overall trait loadout. I highly doubt this would affect pvp balance if a proper replacement was picked. If condis are really that big of a drain on the server, it would also help since most ppl just wouldn’t pick that trait if they had the option so less lag. It would still be problematic for 5 condi builds in a group but a group could be ok with 1, maybe 2 condi builds. Ideal? No, but that seems like all the improvement that is practically needed without require an entire engine rework.

Its a bit stickier then you think. Many of the traits that cause problems are minor traits and can’t be swapped out. Although I’d love to be able to have a few options for the minor to be swapped I doubt that is going to happen any time soon. It would help a condi player in Dungeons a lot more but I doubt it will have too much effect on world events.

What I’m saying is change those minor traits to major traits. For example, swap rending strikes (major) on warrior with precise strikes (minor). Now all warriors cause vulnerability on crits instead of bleeds for baseline. A warrior could still have the option of picking precise strikes as a major trait now. Example, a warrior wants to do 10% more dmg vs bleeding targets (grandmaster minor trait) so he picks rending strikes as the first major trait. A condi build shows up and says, “they will never stop bleeding with me here.” The warrior changes the trait and both people are better off now. Whereas now, a 6/5/0/0/3 warrior isn’t going to swap to 6/0/x/x/x just for the condi build.

For necros, swap barbed precision with something like reaper’s precision. Sharpshooter with precise sites for engineer? The ranger bleed on crit trait is a major. Despite being my main (or maybe because), I cant really think of a simple and fair replacement that would generically work for mesmer but I’m sure the devs could rework something or maybe the mesmer stays as is.

The warrior example is a unique case because of AoO (10% more dmg vs bleeders) but the rest of the classes when going for power builds wouldn’t actively pick these traits. Since calculating bleeds can cause a lot of server strain, this sort of change would reduce server strain from most power builds while making power builds not innately overwrite condi build bleed stacks.

Bhawb.7408:

In group play if a zerker build is ever out damaged by a condi build the zerker player either fell asleep or doesn’t know how to play. 10k DPS on a zerker build is pretty reasonable in group play (in fact its fairly low for a few builds), and yet to get 10k DPS in a condi build with 2k condition damage, you need to stack 70 bleeds. Even if you include burning (828 damage), poison (284), torment (214 while moving), you’d need to be able to maintain 25 stacks of bleeding and torment, and have permanent poison and burning, all on your own (assuming they allowed you your own stacks) just to match a lower DPS point than the “top” power builds reach.

Lily.1935:

The Condi warrior in that example capped at around 6.5k a second while a zerker necromancer caps at 10k auto. And proper warriors in groups do even better then that. And how would my suggestion buff them in solo? Giving people individualized caps doesn’t magically make you apply 300 bleeds. You’re still stuck at 25, it would just mean someone else wouldn’t be effected.

If you are going to compare numbers, do it right. A decently optimized warrior doing 10k dps in a group is probably at 25 might and 25 bloodlust. A condi build with 25 might/corruption should be at 3k+ condi dmg. 25 bleeds at 3k condi dmg is 4.8k dps. Bhawbs silly example of burning, poison, and max torment and bleeds would be 13.5k dps before factoring in power.

In the video maha linked, he is hitting ~600 power dmg along with that ~6k condi dps. (It’s also a heavy armor target.) Warriors that are hitting 10k dps in group setting rely on team buffs and those same team buffs would turn that 600 into something closer to 1-1.5k dps. (25% from vulnerability, banners, more might, not a heavy target, frost spirit etc.) He would be closer to 7-9k dps. A zerker build that gained 700 toughness from knights would be doing less than the condi build. Theoretical damage is not the problem so no buffs are required. Overriding is…

Maybe, I’ve just missed someone posting this before but wouldn’t the more elegant solution be to change all the minor traits that cause bleeds? I’m pretty sure the devs have swapped a minor and major trait before. If someone wanted the bleed on crit major, they would just have to actively chose it. A condi build could kindly ask a teammate to swap it without destroying an overall trait loadout. I highly doubt this would affect pvp balance if a proper replacement was picked. If condis are really that big of a drain on the server, it would also help since most ppl just wouldn’t pick that trait if they had the option so less lag. It would still be problematic for 5 condi builds in a group but a group could be ok with 1, maybe 2 condi builds. Ideal? No, but that seems like all the improvement that is practically needed without require an entire engine rework.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

You guys also seem to be forgetting that it takes 30 hits to build full adrenaline, not just 10. Tree gave you a simplified example but the actual DPS loss is going to be much worse. You lose 15% DPS for the first ten hits, 10% for the next ten, and 5% for the last ten. That’s an average DPS loss of 10% for the next thirty hits.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Versatile_Rage
Gain 5 adrenaline on weapon swap so 10 adrenaline throughout a gs/axe rotation:
Burst and swap
Five hits do 0%
7 hits do 5%,
swap
8 hits do 10%
last hit of 100b, ww and burst do 15%
swap and repeat

I’m assuming something like axe/mace with 2/4/5 for vulnerability/dps. GS5 could probably be worked in there too before the burst if you aren’t canceling ww distance with weapon swap now. The number of hits at 5% vs 10% vs 15% would change a bit based on a new optimal rotation but the heavy hitters would still be at 15%. If you assume uniform dmg per attack over the course of the 26 hits I listed in that rotation, the dps loss would be closer to 7%. Since dmg per attack is not uniform, it’s less than 7%.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Speedrunning-build-not-opti-yet/first#post4283711
40k was a lowball number from me, a noob warrior. So Maha is hitting 40k, 28k and 56k 100b in solo settings, I’m fairly certain your 12k dps warrior in an elite guild group setting should be hitting a lot more than 40k on average per 100b. So the 19k number for the GS burst should actually be much higher for a “pro warrior”. High enough to offset that “24k loss.”

After seeing the proposed changes, I’ll probably run a 4/6/0/0/4 or 6/4/0/0/4 or maybe 6/2/0/0/6 “for fun” builds that spams both axe and gs bursts. Arcing slice will only requires 1 bar of adrenaline for max dmg and will hit 5 targets but requires below 50%. Eviscerate will hit 1 and requires 3 full bars. It would no longer be a question of one or the other but both vs a 15% or less loss of sustain.

Berserker power does 5% more dmg per bar of adrenaline so it’s not a 15% loss over 10 seconds. It’s a 15% —> 10% —> 5% —> 0% over the course of a few seconds per each.

The warrior dps rotation also has various bursts/fluxuations. For example, GS F1 —> Axe2, Axe1. After adrenaline is depleted, swapping and axe 2 and the first 3 hits of the auto attack will be at 0% but the last 3 will be at 5%. Since the last hit is worth more, the dps loss isn’t as bad as a flat loss that you are assuming. Continuing on single targets, just for swapping back and forth between gs/axe will give you 1 bar (5+5 strikes) of adrenaline. Axe 2×2 and Full Axe auto = 10 more strikes to reach 10%. So a max of 5 seconds to get to 10% buff . By the final strike of 100b, adrenaline will be at 100%. This also assumes a single target. Vs 3 targets, the last hit of the axe auto attack will be at 15% buff after 3 seconds. Not the 10 seconds of 0% bonus that you claim.

Let’s finally look at the tooltips in the ready up. 3552+931 for 100b vs 1044/2088 for the GS burst. If your 100b hits for about 40k then a below 50% burst will hit for about 20k vs 1 target. If that sounds ridiculous, think about the fact that a pvp warrior with no buffs hit 5.9k.

That’s approaching the ridiculous math 24k number you are tossing out. Let’s try to figure out a more realistic number. VS single target, the 5 seconds of axing in between the gs is at a ~10% loss. The final hit of 100b and ww and gs burst will all be at 15%. So the dmg loss of a 12k dps warrior is closer to 12k x 0.1 × 5 seconds + 12k x 0.05 × 3 sec or 7.8k. That’s still assuming uniform dmg which is not the case. The heavy hitters will still be buffed more so the dmg loss is probably around 6-7k.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

So basically warriors are back to being a PvP-only class.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQNAR3ZjMdU7ZfHWewJaAggy4BEAnThMIpV2GdBA-ThRBABXt/o8DPdDLcQAA4JAQp6PmpEkUARsMC-e

I’ll have to see the patch to be sure but I’m not seeing how they will become PvP only. Very similar to current rotation with GS/axe BUT GS F1 instead of 1 GS auto attack and also work in Axe F1. 5 adrenaline on weapon swap, 4 adrenaline on axe crit and 2 on non-axe crits with 100% crit chance is able to keep those up no problem. No spotter required although the signet can be changed to power. GS F1 dps only requires 1 bar as more bars = more fury which is unneeded.

15% loss and 100 less power but that GS F1 hit harder than 100b in the live stream and executioner strike isn’t bad either. Also 50 ferocity.

For PvP, it’s definitely a nerf but I look forward to trying it out. A few traits above in the “PvE” build might become more relevant again for PvP.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/List-of-Mesmer-Bugs-Older-Thread/page/3#post3750901

Tyler Chapman.1832:

1. Fixed
2. Fixed feature build
3. Complicated, technically terrain related bugs. All classes have this issue to some extent.

I play all the classes enough to know that no, they don’t have these issues like mesmers do. The Devs have a clue as to what has to happen but they wont be fixing a game engine terrain bug for what is essentially a mesmer only problem. So REWORK!

Unblockable projectile that spawns a clone behind the enemy? It would prevent immediate melee cleave which could help with swap being able to function. Would add slight deception as to which way the enemy needs to turn to attack.

Alternatively, they could bring back an underused mechanic: Hold the button to charge a skill. Tap for the mesmer to actually leap (no clone spawned but some dmg+immob). Hold down for half a second to summon a leap clone and then tap again to swap(still immob). This would still have a buggy clone leap involved sometimes but would add a bit of a mind game to it while giving us a guaranteed self leap.

However, if they gave the mesmer an actual leap this brings up the question of if the mesmer should be able to leap without a target and if they would be willing to give us an actual leap to begin with.

If it’s open world then bloodlust and fire are good options because it’s ok to camp the GS. Bloodlust is pretty expensive. Sigil of perception might be a cheaper alternative for the time.

For some players (myself being one of them) I just don’t bother with the greatsword in group pve stuff but most people that do this have been playing the game for a while/from the start. If you don’t feel comfortable going full on melee all the time and feel the need for a backup oh $h&* button, then sigil of battle/energy are probably better choices. Energy is expensive but it will give you an extra dodge while battle will help buff your dmg for when you return to the sword.

With that in mind, please don’t spam GS#5 as part of a “DPS rotation.” Those kind of players kitten people off a lot and tend to get kicked.

Kadj.6725:

Joodu.5368:

Whip.

Just saying..

To make it easy for the devs how about using pistol MH but instead of shooting bullets there’s a giant pink/purple glowing whip coming out of the head of it? Kind of like the gunblade from final fantasy but more etheral.

I will accept this absurdity on the sole condition that they make the legendary pistol fire a little sign that says “Bang!” for melee attacks. OTHERWISE, NO SALE.

(… Quip whip)

That would be awesome although I’d prefer an illusionary blade as default.

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Am I the only one that thinks it’s way too complex and thus way too unfair for others class mechanics? A lesser version of this is the engi’s toolbelt.

I agree with this being way too complex and “unfair” to other classes. It’s also too far out of the scope of a rework since the Devs seem set on not being able to swap individual weapon skills etc.

A current struggle that most mesmers have is that we often need to sacrifice a lot of damage for team utility or sacrifice a significant amount of sustain for spike dmg. AoE is dependent on illusions living and you haven’t changed that so wvw mesmers would still struggle. Looking at your proposed skills, I think a rework like this would actually make the problem worst as there are clear winners in damage and then clear winners in utility while still being shackled too much to illusions. Since most of our bugs are tied to illusions, I think giving mesmers more illusion would also make things worst.

The general idea of more utility illusions is nice and I think a lot of people have wanted that flavor from gw1 hexes. Buff the damage the mesmer can do without illusions. Then make all phantasms/clones more utility focused like sword clone for boon removal or warden for projectile negating/reflecting. Make traited torch standard for condi removal. Some of your utility ideas would fit well this sort of rework.

Alternatively, find inspiration from gw1 without tying them to illusions.
Backfire = Reflects
Power spike = halting strike
Shatter enchantment = a new trait that does dmg on boon removal >_>
Aneurysm = Recharge enemy skills but cause dmg for each second of skill recharged.
Ineptitude/clumsiness = a new trait that causes dmg when an enemy misses due to blind.

TLDR: That’s a lot of effort you put in but I cant support it because it’s too far out there and also too focused on illusions.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2bpy0i/ready_up_upcoming_engineer_ranger_changes/

Most of those buffs were really straight forward buffs to underused or weak skills. That’s actually awesome as far as balance goes in general since it increases build variety. Also the buffs were simple buffs to straightforward skills.

We need bug fixes more than anything.
Some buffs are too much power creep to other classes.
Devs have a history of not understanding the mesmer.

I’m worried.

Edit: Also a lot of ppl are talking about engineers also having reveal and buffing ranger reveal. This doesn’t bode well for PU and thieves so that’s one more build of ours that’s getting a hard counter.

Ithilwen.1529:

Before seeing this thread, I replaced Illusionary Personality with Main the Disillusioned

Thanks for mentioning this. Mostly cause it gave me an idea on addressing this

skcamow.3527:

The primary issue with builds using maimed that has been discussed a lot on the forum is the lack of burst potential. That being the case, I think that issue has to be resolved for a build using maimed to be considered “viable”.

So I decided to try helseth’s build 4/4/0/0/6 (so halting strike instead of 20% MW dmg) with a few tests vs a heavy golem. With no vulnerability and only the might from shatters, a 3 clone MW crits for about 1,300 and non-crit for 700 per clone vs a heavy golem. 47% crit chance. So an average of about 1k. IP would add another one of those hits. With Maim and a 3 clone shatter assuming the target is moving for 4 seconds, the torment would do 1632.

Interestingly 3 clone distortion does 3 confusion with IP. 3 clone distortion with Maim does 3 confusion and 3 torment. F2 and F3 reacted as expected.

IP has it’s obvious advantages with low clone MW shatters and instant distortion. Vs light armored targets Maim’s dmg will be relatively lower and of course condi removal can happen. How often you do see people trying to stand still in pvp, especially if you just hit them with a shatter combo? Vulnerability can change these numbers but so can protection/weakness/toughness and if nothing else, it makes the vulnerability harder to remove then it’s still done it’s job. I’ve also watched Helseth play and he’s often not in range for IP to matter for F1-3. Might will affect both of them about equally.

Now for PvP, these numbers can still be somewhat debated as to if one is objectively always better than the other for a specific zerker build but for a hybrid like the one I mentioned or even if someone wants to go a bit tankier, the numbers look like they would start favoring Maim to IP for overall sustain and even sometimes spike. Again, IP still has a lot of utility to it. For WvW where 40% condi duration food exists, I think people should give Maim a serious look. Granted -40% condi food also exists there.

Veruah.5302:

The only % increase that affects conditions is sigil of bursting and that is a % increase to condition dmg stat so it doesn’t even affect the base portion of condition dmg.

skcamow.3527:

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

Can I make the assumption that we are no longer buggy? Cause if the double CD traiting worked for Sc2

Still buggy unfortunately but if not I’d be right with you on that and a couple other build ideas I have lying around.

I know it’s buggy. It was more of a, "may I dream of a hypothetical situation when we no longer are bugged? ;( "

Veruah.5302:

What are your opinions on the hybrid build? Does hybrid just not have a place in pvp?

Hybrid for warrior and ele are two meta bunker builds at the moment. It requires might stacking for more raw power and condi dmg onto a celestial amulet. Mesmers can have decent might stacking but then SD thieves happen. They steal boons and they wreck mesmers. Warriors have sturdy bodies and eles have so many boons that can act as cover boons so it matters less. D.Dissipation might actually be an answer to this. Since thief S/D #3 is a cleave and happens after the perma-dodge, it should guarantee clone death procs onto a thief. Weakness will decrease endurance regen and help us tank a bit. S/D #3.2 is the unblockable boon steal so don’t try to Sc2 that.

I guess this kind of goes back to Chaos’s question of what would this build accomplish. The other meta mesmer builds don’t have much stopping power. Torment on Sc2 usually doesn’t stop smart players as they know to back off/stop attacking if things are going downhill. What if we had a build that started the fight with torment from Sc2 and then applies more if someone tries to run? I think this is where a Maim build could add a bit of diversity as it gives mesmers stopping power. Sc/Focus + GS would give a pull and push, 2 cripples and clone generation on top of targets. Runes of Str + Shattered Str, GS2, Bountiful Interruption and sigil of battle would get a lot of might for a hybrid build. With the ability to do decent power dmg as well as cripple, confuse, torment and poison at 1200 range, very few builds should be able to escape this.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArdBnsISRaWlGMrZEcDykToBo+HR5klMA/C-TJRHwAFODAc2fAwjA4YZAA

This setup also doesn’t rely on stealth, sword 2, staff 2 etc so your build won’t actively hinder you at holding a point. Celestial amulet, DD and Chaos in general should help with sustain. I picked the signet heal as this build is meant to keep illusions up until someone tries to run. Then your passive healing drops but that’s ok cause torment just finished them off. 3rd utility could be null field, or arcane thievery or whatever is needed.

Can I make the assumption that we are no longer buggy? Cause if the double CD traiting worked for Sc2, I would actually go with dungeon ideology of 1 superior main hand and 2 offhands. Sc2 would have a shorter CD than weapon swap so I would never want to lose it but 2 offhands and weapon swap sigils would still work. Just for the sake of theory crafting I’ll just run with this anyways.

The focus offhand
Since this challenge focuses on torment but no PU it becomes important for us to force enemies to chase us while we kite as much as possible (make them melee). This makes focus one of the ideal off-hands. Swiftness and cripple combined with a pull are amazing for kiting melee. Warden, when it works, is great for forcing people to swap out of ranged and therefore chase in melee.

The other offhand
If this is a PvP “bunker” build that cannot stealth on point (No PU requirement) then Torch is not usable and I would use the pistol for some bleeds and an interrupt. If bunkering is not a concern then torch is an good choice for the aoe blind and burn. Alternatively, torment would be great in trying to shut down people that are trying to get from point to point in PvP and a torch 4, mirror images, F2 spike might be worth it.

Runes and Sigils
Sigil of Doom is great. I’ve been toying with the idea of Grenth for better kiting/increased CD on enemy skills. This would have synergy with sigil of hydromancy. For WvW, torment runes would make more sense.

Traits
0/4/0/4/6. DE and Maim are obvious choices. I would like to propose a shatter trait in inspiration though since no one ever thinks about that line for shatter. Since our vigor is <50% up time from dueling, this would help a lot for the Mesmer and the Mesmer’s team. Phantasmal fury for more duelist/warden bleeds. The one choice that I’m torn on is of course based off of bugs. Do you trait the focus or the scepter? Idk.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQRArd7alknpItdqxWNMrNCuBdyRA1/IKnskB4XA-TJRHwADOJAi2fIZZAAPBAA
Moa Morph because ppl tend to run or randomly spam skills when Moa’d.
Even in WvW, I feel that portal can be used as another one of those rage skills that make people mindlessly run back and forth between two points trying to chase a mesmer. The heal would change based off of runes.

Why not executioner axe? Hold down number 2 to charge crazy far. Press 6 to cancel uppercut and gain swiftness. Repeat. Granted the item isn’t for sale anymore.

Agent Noun.7350:

Anyone remember the Mesmer’s trajectory in GW1? Especially in PvE, Mesmers weren’t particularly desirable, but by the end they were damage-dealing gods.

So, who knows. Maybe we’ll keep getting nerfed into the ground and then a year or two from now suddenly find ourselves rising from the nerf ashes like a sparkly purple phoenix just like in GW1.

Back then there were roles/sort of a trinity. There also wasn’t zerg spam aoe for loots since loot was randomly divided between the group. So even though people might not have noticed the mesmer doing stuff/damage, they could still be valuable to a group.

Then add in a 2nd profession such as dervish. Mantra-scythe-interrupter would do some awesome dmg (up to 300 cleaving auto attacks), be tanky (mantras) and bring the mesmer utility (interrupts etc.). If you wanted a more traditional mesmer build, chaos dmg ignored armor (especially good in HM) and was attached to the punishing playstyle that most mesmer mains loved. Basically mesmers were never that weak in gw1 and those weaknesses could be covered by the 2nd profession (while still looking amazing). GW2 doesn’t give us that luxury to hold us over these dark times.

So why are they dark times? Let’s look at a what a gameplay programmer says about AI summons.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Consumables-Nerf/page/2#post3532963

The fact that most of these items ever existed is just blatantly a bug. The decision to throw cooldowns on them were for server performance/stability as the patch notes said, not for balance. Period. This was something that was long overdue.

Think of it this way: Between the embers and whistle, those items were effectively doubling/tripling the amount of players active in a map.

…

The bringer of bad news,
-Bill

He’s talking about ogre pet whistles etc but the same logic applies to mesmer illusions. A gameplay programmer considers our class mechanic a bug as far as server lag is concerned and this was one of the patches that illusions started acting wonky as well. We still have tons of bugs that aren’t being fixed and attempts to fix them usually break the class more. The balance team has no idea what to do with mesmers. The incompetence/indifference of 3 separate teams are basically working against the mesmer.

I don’t believe we have reached the point of absolutely useless but I look at this and I’m finely done with being a mesmer main after 10 years because I don’t want to stick around as the class continues to get butchered.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Consumables-Nerf/page/2#post3532963

The fact that most of these items ever existed is just blatantly a bug. The decision to throw cooldowns on them were for server performance/stability as the patch notes said, not for balance. Period. This was something that was long overdue.

Think of it this way: Between the embers and whistle, those items were effectively doubling/tripling the amount of players active in a map.

…

The bringer of bad news,
-Bill

On a more just plain sad note. I believe this is the reason that this skill has been nerfed and why were are so buggy. We are the bug.

That patch specifically talked about embers/whistles but if I recall correctly, this was also the patch that caused illusions to be unable to attack other summons or some weird AI problem.

Then the next server optimization patch hit… and stealth insta-killed our illusions. Probably another way to get rid of illusions clogging the server as fast as possible.

Now this patch… get rid of the clone as quickly as possible because saving a spot for a “4th” illusions is more lag.

And that is why I’m done with the mesmer. The balance devs balance for us being bug free and how our skills were intended to work but I’m convinced it is the server optimization guys that work independently of the balance devs to screw over mesmers and I doubt they realize and/or care.

Sword 3

Summon an illusion that leaps at your target, crippling them. After the intial leap, the clone will execute the Mind Slash sword chain.

Sword3.2

Swap places with your clone. Immobilize nearby foes.

So if we are going to follow this word for word as to how skills should work, let’s be consistent.

GS2

Throw an illusionary greatsword that bounces between targets, damaging foes and giving might to allies. It creates a clone at its first target

This clone uses GS1 when it doesn’t state it should. Please bugfix/nerf.

Staff 2

Teleport away from your target, summoning a clone that casts Winds of Chaos.

Works without a target so it’s bugged. Anet please bug fix so that it now requires a target. (Let’s ignore IE for now too)

Focus 5

Create a phantasm that attacks your target and creates a defensive bubble, protecting itself and allies from projectiles

LOL attack?

Spear 2

Surge forward, attacking foes in front of you, then teleport back to your starting location, creating a clone.

This skill can actually produce 2 clones. Anet please bug fix.

Mimic

Absorb a projectile attack to be redirect at a foe.

This blocks melee attacks. Anet please bug fix, I don’t want to be OP.

P.Defender

Summon an illusion that redirects half of the damage you would take to itself instead.

This actually redirects dmg from my party and not just me. Anet please fix so that it only affects me.

Sure, it’s a bug. However, if a new mesmer notices this within 1 week, as most of us did when we were new to the game and it’s been around for 2 years, it’s now a feature regardless of if it’s a bug. They could have just as easily fixed the tooltip.

Let’s just look at this patch for example.

Zealot’s Flame: Added an unblockable skill fact.

This attack used to be unblockable when it didn’t say it was. Why did this get a skill fact when we got a “bug fix”?

Xaylin.1860:

…. But I’m very sceptical if such a direct damage trait is the right thing to do. Just look at all the Phantasm damage modifiers and Empowered Mantras. They are boring as hell but still became mandatory in PvE. It could destroy a lot of build diversity without fixing the underlying issues.
…
Your trait would add a new functionality even though the mechanic already is in place. It is exactly the same as if they added a new area damage weapon. It probably is even more mandatory since it doesn’t only affect one weapon but a variety of skills which can be combined

(I’m going to bring my ele up in this again because it’s become my 2nd main) The ele has a lot of DPS modifiers everywhere. It doesn’t matter what tree I go into, if I want a specific play-style altering trait, there are a variety of DPS traits along the way. This actually makes ele have more build diversity not less. There are of course going to be optimal builds but if you look into the meta those optimal builds can change wildly with changes in group comps and weapon choice. Slightly less optimal “for fun” builds can compare in DPS and not feel like a drag on the group.

As mesmers, we have low DPS and so few modifiers that in PvE we feel forced to grab the few we can. Furthermore, we don’t have enough traits like wardens feedback that can be so game changing (at least for PvE; IP/DE/PU are great but elsewhere). While mantras can be extremely useful in their own right, without another option for DPS, it’s actually killing build diversity because of how mandatory mantras are right now.

I know you feel that a trait like the one I proposed will become mandatory but it also goes back to what trait would you give up for this? Let’s think 6 domination builds in PvE. Shatters are currently not worth it for groups but with this new trait+maybe more enemy boons in season 2 living world, it could become an optimal~viable option. It would be strong aoe spikes and a sacrifice in sustain but importantly, it wouldn’t be as much of a loss to sustain like it currently is. This might even make some ppl be ok with GS in PvE group content. More aoe dmg loaded onto GS 2-4 (shatter fodder/boon removal) will tilt the balance so that the terrible auto attack can be carried harder by more active play. Or what about a build that takes the 15% phantasm, new trait and 4% mantra for a hybrid of the 2. Even a choice like do I take null field/thievery/pDisenchanter or do I have 4-8-12% more DPS on my sword auto/reflects comes into play. It’s even self balancing; do I do 4% more dmg and have lots of boon strips or 12% more dmg on 1 strong boon strip utility? Does the pDisenchanter do 15% +new trait combo or do I grab a different trait? With more challenging content being promised, I also hope that interrupts and halting strike become a more viable option which would exclude 1 of the traits listed above.

TLDR: More mutually exclusive & rewarding ways of dealing comparable DPS will lead to build diversity not mandatory DPS traits. Other DPS options besides mantras would help in general.

Xaylin.1860:

My main concerns are class internal balance and the class design/vision. The gap between the efficiency of NF and AT would just be way too big. I didn’t say NF would become OP with that trait. I said that it wouldn’t be balanced among the available skills although I’m aware you disagree . Additionally, I believe ANet will favour a more support/CC focussed buff to our AoE capabilities rather than pure area damage one.
…
The simplest way would be altering existing weapon skills and Glamour traits.
.

Support/cc focused buffs would be great but it still doesn’t help us tag for bags. If anything that would make decisions more conflicted. Do I do mediocre DPS or do I bring amazing utility for the team while getting nothing for my effort. It’s a general complaint that rewards don’t match up with effort in gw2. If you don’t want that built into the mesmer class, we need more DPS traits that trigger on that support/cc. Halting strike is a good start but we need more stuff like it!

Xaylin.1860:

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

…

Wow. That was quite a harsh post. No need to call anything BS. That’s just impolite.

I didn’t mean to be harsh with that; it’s part of my “friendly banter/discussion” language.

Mind spike didn’t always do reduced damage to targets with boons. That was introduced in June 2013. Back then the base damage was reduced by 20%. So on some level I’m really asking for a trait to buff that sword 1.3 like it used to in “boon-rich” environments. How often do you really hit with the backloaded attack of sword 1.3 in PvP? Everything on a mesmers bar besides shatters will reset the chain so that is also why I consider it conditional. Gs/staff is seeing a rise in shatter builds because we don’t exactly have the sustain to just sword auto attack on point.

It DOES matter how much damage I can do on my ele. The Devs themselves compared our aoe to ele aoe and ours should be worst BUT it needs a buff. (Live stream @ 46:25) So when talking about aoe numbers, we need to keep in mind the kind of aoe that an ele can pump out and propose buffs to our aoe but make sure it doesn’t exceed an ele’s aoe potential.

I still think we’re seeing the null fiend vs thievery on a different perspective as well. If it’s impossible to balance those with this trait, then what about Confusing Enchantments (Also a master domination trait)? Glamours function in very different ways but the confusion on enter/exit is identical for all of them. What about halting strike? We have a variety of interrupts that are single target, aoe lines, waves, pulls, random… yet I would say that halting strike is balanced. Even sharper images acts differently because of different weapon patterns. So I firmly believe that a trait like this could be balanced with all of our boon strips despite those boon strips acting in very different ways.

If traits like this aren’t the way to go then what else can we propose? The only weapons that might get any sort of real change is scepter1 and gs3. Those won’t be enough. I would love new weapons/skills but then those new aoe weapons/skills would become just as “mandatory” as this trait. I think those are out of our league as far as Anet taking our ideas. “Simple” trait changes seem like the best way to ask for changes to playstyle, especially with the mesmer and how all of our traits already function.

Random idea, GS trait turns the GS auto into a MELEE attack! Heck, the focus trait changes that weapons function so much, why not? (I’m not super serious but I would be really happy if this happened.)

Going on a bit of a tangent.
If you really want to use poison in PvE, use Conjure poison pistol! (Or at least that’s what I call it on my ele) It may also temporarily fill desires for a main hand condi pistol on mesmers and then make you cry.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hylek_Blowgun
24 second base duration of poison on pistol #3 and you can drop it and let teammates pick it up as well. Don’t use sigil of doom in PvE.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

… what trait would you give up for a potential 600 bonus to damage to shatters. If IP had to go, that decreases guaranteed damage of shatters for a chance of buffing other shatter damage. Would not want to give up DE for this trait. So placing the trait in 4 or 6 of dueling/domination or even 2 chaos/inspiration would make it a tough choice and open up potentially new builds.

Xaylin.1860:

It’s impossible to argue about builds without discussing the trait placement.

>_>

Ignoring that…
So using sword auto attack numbers from PvP light golem, no buffs just zerker amy and 4/4/0/0/6. 630,630,1111 non crit numbers.
Maths…. It’s about a 30% increase IF the target has the boon and IF you can consistently hit the 3rd auto attack and if you never use blurred frenzy or get kited… Then factor in phantasms and shatters as major sources of dmg. Furthermore as I mentioned earlier, what trait would you give up for this? 20% more MW dmg. 15% more illusion dmg. Maybe even IP or DE. How much “effort” do those really take? Finally, when I mentioned 600 I was also thinking with PvE/WvW zerker numbers vs low defense so my 2nd recommendation of 400 (20% situational sword auto pvp buff) would be in line with a lot of our DPS traits. As I said, it’s not as OP as you think.

As for null field and arcane thievery and how there isn’t an easy number to find, I call BS. Arcane thievery is 3 boons instantly vs a single target. At 3600 crit with max boons stripped I would say it’s actually weak dmg for how valuable our utility slots can be BUT it has strong 1v1 utility so I think it’s fine. Also null field has the potential to strip 35 boons and conditions while thievery does 3 and 3. Based off of your logic, the skills are already broken as hell.

For null field… my ele does 3k auto attacks with staff in zergs and then lava fonts as well for similar numbers. Those are low crits too. then of course the meteor showers… I’m sure you’ve seen videos of those 20k hits and more realistically 10k vs tankies. Doing 600-1200 dmg per second to enemies passing through a purple circle is crap compared to that. It’s enough to tag for bags though.

Xaylin.1860:

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

2) Boon ripping! Necros have boon corruption but could we get a trait that adds power damage on boon removal. It would buff our sword auto attack, gs3, null field and possibly the disenchanter if the trait worked on it. Again, some decent POWER aoe to help tag stuff.

I think Mesmers indeed lack traits which promote boon ripping and I’d like to see something like this introduced in the future. However, I don’t think adding damage when removing boons would be the right thing to do. It just affects too many skills and would therefore be impossible to balance properly. For example, many people forget that the Sword AA rips boons.

I mentioned power for tagging potential. Other traits would be nice but not the focus of my ideas. I also don’t think it would be hard to balance.
Boon strippers:
GS3, Sword 1.3, Arcane Thievery, Null Field, Traited Shatters and pDisenchanter
Now lets start with a number like 600 dmg in full power gear non crits.

The devs mentioned a rework/buff to GS3 so I cant say much other than this trait could be an alternative way to buff it.

Sword1.3 does less damage to targets with boons. This trait would normalize the damage regardless of boon without buffing the max damage. Not as OP as you might initially think.

Arcane thievery. Long cooldown potentially 1800 non crit in a full/high power build. Requires timing for full effect and can be countered so I think this would also be fine.

Null field. It now pulses 600 damage aoe if there are boons. A huge buff for zerg tagging at choke points but long cooldown and it’s not really common in pvp which leads to…

Shatter’s remove boons on traits. With the standard tPvP shatter build, what trait would you give up for a potential 600 bonus to damage to shatters. If IP had to go, that decreases guaranteed damage of shatters for a chance of buffing other shatter damage. Would not want to give up DE for this trait. So placing the trait in 4 or 6 of dueling/domination or even 2 chaos/inspiration would make it a tough choice and open up potentially new builds. Furthermore, GS/staff seems fairly standard now so this would incentive the sword as well.

Disenchanter is the only potentially broken this about this trait. If the trait is only for personal non AI damage then it just wouldn’t work with this. However, it does do poor damage already and maybe the base could be lowered a bit.

So overall, the current pvp meta mesmer going gs/staff 4/4/0/0/6 couldn’t abuse it. Perhaps a new meta/diversity added to counter the might stacks/runes of strength. It wouldn’t be OP in WvW but help us tag stuff. PvE… we can use any buffs we can get and boons aren’t exactly common (I have hope for season 2)

Maybe 600 is a bit too high but just pick a new number. 400 in a full zerker build with crits at 800. I feel confident in that there is a good number out there that would promote build diversity in PvP while helping us tag more in WvW.

Wyrden.4713:

Reax.1806:

4.425 spvp games played as mesmer:

1) We could have more ways to punish enemies for killing our illusions. Offensively and defensively. Access by traits.

Examples:

Offensively: Distribution of damage for each illusion killed by opponent. For WvW, this will help to distribute damage in a zerg x zerg situation, where the illusions die fast.
Defensively: Clear a condition for each phantasm killed by opponent.

2) Weapons skills could give a little movement capability, like other classes have, for gap closer, or run away. If it is too laborious to create new skills, how about removing target restriction for illusionary leap? That way we could use this to run a little faster.

while i do like the more punishing, it would improve pu builds by a lot, and pu builds r rly strong.. dont get me wrong, i like the concept and the way u think

But it’s a trait. PU + DE + this trait; make it so you can only pick 2 of these traits per build and then it will be fine. As I mentioned earlier with my ideas, the damage just needs to be less than shatters. The active play will still be stronger and should be. However, in large zergs where clones die too fast to shatter, this will help mesmers tag mobs or zerglings.

I’ve been trying out lightning rod + static field etc on my ele. It’s basically halting strike (+weakness) but used with an AOE with no 5 target limit . Sort of like how glamour builds worked with confusion on entering or exiting them. Granted, my ele can grab a lot more % modifiers so Ele “halting strike” hit’s a lot harder than a mesmers but that’s ok according to their design philosophy and I accept it.

We just need some form of glamour with aoe interrupt on it. Maybe even a weapon (and/or GS3 buffed) with an aoe interrupt on a shortish cooldown. Or imbued diversion could become baseline and the trait could further buff it. Or all of the above. Basically stuff that wouldn’t become OP in tPvP but scales well with zerg combat while not doing too much damage.

3 other ideas not related to halting strike:
1) Clone death traits that do some (just enough to tag) POWER damage. Not as good as the shatter in PvP but DE + this trait would be good enough zerg tagging. Maybe it could be phantasm death only so it cant be spammed too much.

2) Boon ripping! Necros have boon corruption but could we get a trait that adds power damage on boon removal. It would buff our sword auto attack, gs3, null field and possibly the disenchanter if the trait worked on it. Again, some decent POWER aoe to help tag stuff.

3) Bring back the old glamour builds. The thief trait lotus poison has a 15 second ICD BUT the ICD is per target. Blinding befuddlement has a 5 second ICD that is shared with all targets. Confusion damage was already halved a long time ago so it will never be back in full strength. Culling and lag were also fixed (at least somewhat) which also makes these builds weaker as they rely on confusion.This would also prevent chaos armor from becoming too OP. The 5 second non-shared ICD would promote not spamming glamours for rapid aoe confusion spikes. Condi removal is now much more common in zergs. I really don’t think this is too much to ask.

Thoughts? If people like any of them, maybe I’ll try doing a more official write up in the profession balance forum. Nothing too fancy since single traits that change how the mesmer plays/skills function seems to be a core of the class and is self balancing in that we need to specialize and cant grab too much.

KingZmaN.6473:

Just as you vocalized everyone’s right to discuss in whatever manner they see fit, your vocalization includes me as well.

Additionally, “constructive criticism” I respond to with no problem at all, though, “biased criticism” I simply ‘tear down’ as others have been trying to do regarding this topic.

You’re entire logic regarding teams undermines itself, you say if a team wins with builds deemed “terrible” doesn’t make the builds no longer “terrible”, so the contradiction is, if the build itself is so inherently flawed (ie, “terrible”) then no matter how much effort one (or a group) puts into playing said inherently flawed (ie, “terrible”) build they cannot win, though yet, they did win meaning the build itself is not inherently flawed (ie, “terrible”) as stated.

And I did cover the team thing, continuing on, I already addressed that it was never my attention to discuss my mantra build outside of what I presented in my extra text file.

Another example of a misguided remark, revealing that you also, have spoken void of the context of the previous person’s remark or the information I’ve shared or the conversation topics I’ve already responded, of which you are defending, thus, proving my “narrow-minded” context with your very own reply post.

Sure you have the “right” to post here but it doesn’t give you the right to be right. If you won’t listen to any advice/constructive criticism I see no point to you posting because you are being self defeating. As pyro has stated, at this point this is beyond you. It’s about making sure no one else picks up on your bad advice.

The best players out there can use terrible builds and stomp noobs. Just because highly skilled players make the choice to handicap themselves doesn’t mean that those builds are good builds. If you cannot understand this on a fundamental level then watch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8qQ-CZvL3Y
Among a few topics, it’s the top team in EU talking about how their builds aren’t perfect and they will continue to optimize them. If you somehow think that you are better than them and don’t need to improve, I have nothing more to say.

If you want to give insight as to why you prefer mantra builds then people will also discuss why they used to use mantra builds and why they no longer use them. To call the opposition narrow-minded for offering rebuttals is an attempt to have no discussion at all. Since these are forums, discussion will happen whether you like it or not. In this sense, your claimed intent doesn’t mean anything. Learn to deal with constructive criticism or don’t bother posting at all.

KingZmaN.6473:

Lastly, a team is a team, you have members who are designated to fulfill certain roles, all based on each team-member’s strengths and how the team as a whole meshes with each team-member’s strength, translating, if the team as a whole is exceptional and can win with all team-members using a healing based build then there’s nothing “terrible” about it.

This is just terrible logic.
The team can be great and win while still using terrible builds. They just need to put in extra effort/skill to outplay the opposition. That doesn’t mean their builds are no longer terrible. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t better builds out there. That doesn’t mean their builds don’t have any glaring flaws.

So no you did not cover the team thing. You also didn’t cover the team thing for your build specifically. Roles are not just based on strengths but also weaknesses. As others have stated, your build doesn’t have much strength in the PvP format of the game. It also has a HUGE weakness as far as defenses go. For a team to try and cover your weakness well would be a huge drain on team resources.

So first you say others are trolling you for saying your build can’t avoid damage. Then you say all classes should be stripped of OP unavoidable damage…

How about just bring a stun break as others have recommended.

Mogar.9216:

There is no arguing with people who already made up their mind. Most people do not understand range and position in combat . If you assign 0 value to the huge range GS has then yes GS sucks compare to other weapons if you fight in melee.

Most people do understand range and position in combat. Party buffs almost always have a max of 600 range. Stacking in melee is a way of making sure everyone is in range of all those amazing buffs. GS range is important in PvP/WvW but it does have close to zero value for most people in dungeons. More so, it’s a really low relative value compared to the really high value of team buffs.

@Xyonon
Do you shatter as well then? So many people oppose it since it’s a “dps loss” but the trash scenario comes to mind again. If a single clone shatter does 5k aoe vs 5 targets and my auto attack does 2-4k vs 3, why would I not 3, F1 to clear trash. Or warden —> shatter. They will be dead before my phantasms even recharge their attacks.

One thing though, if you start with sigil of battle on GS and never swap back to it, sigil of battle is not the way to go. Sigil of force or fire maybe? I personally will prefer the sword offhand still for the aoe interrupt that doesn’t move my foes but I understand your use of it during those situations.

I really like the first two but I hate the idea of ICDs on them. Our boon strips already have CDs and those should be enough when you balance the skills.

Rending shatter and shattered concentration together though… It might have to be bumped to master for an alternate 6/4/0/0/4 boon shatter build. Or just phantasmal disenchanter. So much QQ over people too silly to destroy it. Sword clones would also have a bit of oomph behind their attacks.

Combine #4 and blast finisher?
Pulses a blast finisher/dmg/boon removal each second the mesmer holds down GS#3 and sits still. Lasts up to 3 seconds?

It would combo terrible with our own fields as chaos armor doesn’t stack duration. Wouldn’t be OP in PvE because it’s still the GS >_> I would use it more often though. For PvP we would have to stand still for 3 seconds with a huge target above our head. For wvw, it would give mesmers some form of AOE that is still loads weaker than ele or necro but at least we could feel more useful.

But yeah… please fix bugs before trying to “buff” this skill.

Runes of Air plus sigil of air.
I tried out a few builds but I haven’t seen a “bug” wit clone procs. The 3 second CD on the sigil and then the air procs from armor probably make it seem more rapid than it should be but it’s fine as far as I can tell.