Yup, it’s been around from the beginning.
I don’t know what crappy guardians you run with, but mace+focus and communal defenses is so brokenly OP. I feel sorry you haven’t played with a half competent one.
Meteor Shower on Ashrym is not even an issue if you’re familiar with the tick damage intervals, and for some reason you seem to equate HP with sustainability despite the fact that the two most durable classes in the game that also make the best bunkers happen to be the two lowest health professions.
Meanwhile necromancer sits at high health like the warrior yet it has the worst sustainability of all the classes because being a sponge does not equate to recovery options and active mitigation.
P.S. if you put the party behind the illusions, the mob is already inclined to prioritize aggro by proximity, dispelling the illusion… not to mention the deadliest attacks from most bosses are not the projectiles but the melee cleaves.
In the case of Mai Trin or Archdiviner, and especially mossman, their projectiles actually pierce sometimes, and in the case of mossman the projectile bounces and hurts more people the more people stacked up.
I specifically did not equate HP to defense. I was stressing the importance of active defense and how HP doesn’t mean much. 50% resistance to aoe is effectively a 100% increase to vitality. It won’t do kitten for illusions staying alive. That’s why I was recommending distortion for illusions when the mesmer dodges to give active defense to illusions.
Piercing projectiles don’t pierce when they hit a wall. An immune to damage target would effectively be a wall that could even block unblockable projectiles. You can stand right behind the illusion and due high damage and be in close proximity to maintain aggro. I’m not saying it would break every boss but bosses like the legendary grawl shaman would be stupid easy. You can stand inside illusions while maintaining aggro. Aims for you, hits illusions but they’re immune since they aren’t the target. None of the illusions die to his dive bombs because they are all untargeted aoe. Bosses like Old Tom “require” tanks like earth eles but this would allow for a single clone to tank the whole attack. This game has too many wonky mechanics for immunity to aoe to not break so much stuff.
Zerk meta is only over for people that aren’t as skilled. I was still doing fine for the vast majority of the beta with my normal full zerker build and I hadn’t learned most of the tells yet. It kind of felt like a dungeon solo with zerker gear in that sense.
I am not convinced that it’s dead for raids. It might be harder and maybe there will be 1 or 2 anchors but I really don’t think it’s dead.
As I’ve mentioned here
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Suggestion-Phantasm-Survivability-Rework/first#post5525486
A lot of it is enemy numbers and spacing. Also requires the ability to double tap the discharge and other abilities at the same time. Finally, it requires the ability to channel MoP unhindered. Stacked in melee for dungeons doesn’t work that well for MoP. That doesn’t mean suddenly stand at 1200 range with it all the time. If there is a PSEA warrior other party members, stand within buff range. For dungeons, I would only recommend it vs trash mobs comboed with MoD while sword auto attacking for dungeons. If you really want a ranged “weapon swap” for some bosses, it’s a good alternatively that lets you stay sword/sword/pistol. Otherwise, don’t bother recharging mid fight. For open world with lots of spaced out mobs, it can be better than most options for mesmer.
Also, if it really is pulsing aoe then they are going to die no matter what even with 50% or whatever resistance. Permanent immunity is just… no. I play all parts of the game and I agree with Anet on parity between them, especially on something like this.
On the front of persistent AoE punishing melee, not even close. My reaper and guardian were both able to stay for prolonged amounts of time, and unlike mesmer their DPS was not immediately kitten.
lol pets will die immediately, walking out of aoe that ticks for 10k+ damage a tick is not in the realm of possibility, plus it actively crowd controls your phantasm and keeps him from attacking while it runs away from the aoe.
Explain to me how a meta zerker guardian with 12k health survives for prolonged amounts of time while inside those 10k+ damage a tick aoes?
Before you say active defense though:
Mistrust: When you dodge, your illusions gain distortion. When illusions evade attacks, they cause 2 stacks of AOE confusion.
I am recommending active defense for them. When someone like asham drops a meteor shower on a group stacked in melee because someone in your group doesn’t understand tells and aggros, how does that not punish melee only builds? If anything mesmers have it better because they can “range” even with those pure melee builds by summoning phantasms from 1200 range and spamming something like… MoP from 1200 range.
You keep championing for increased mesmer damage but in the wrong way. Recommend a new elite spec that nerfs phantasm damage and buffs the mesmer’s base damage like I did here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Speculations-on-future-Mesmer-Specializations/first#post5485828
One of the biggest issues I actually have with this target/no target immunity stuff is how strong and broken body blocking would be. Glass mesmers wouldn’t even need wardens to negate projectiles like they did in the past. Put any phantasm down. Put party behind it. LoL at pathetic encounter design.
@Zenith, I don’t really care for open world zergy combat and when I do it, I’ll just spam MoP/shatters if I’m on my mesmer.
…That’s just false. For one, leveling your masteries demands grinding DE open world. It;s not like you’re gonna avoid it. And I’m not gonna go and be dead weight by just using MoP spam; I hate these kind of people as much as the leeching staff guardians and the rangers and necromancer who fear/knock back everything from melee.
If you really want to talk about open world stuff, fine. I plan to load up on all the exp boosters possible and grind that stuff out as fast as possible. As for MoP being useless, I feel bad for sheep like you that so blindly follow the dungeon meta (I did help push this for mesmers so I’m sorry) that you forget you aren’t in dungeons anymore when doing dynamic events.
Sword has a 130 frontal cone cleave and can hit max 3 targets.
MoP has a 240 RADIUS and can hit 5 targets.
First, sword requires the 3rd chain hit to be competitive and when so many enemies die before you get near them, it won’t happen all the time in open world. 2nd, there isn’t corner stacking in dynamic events and pulls are a lot less effective when so many enemies have break bars. So the chance of that tiny cleave hitting 3 targets is small while MoP is capable of hitting a lot more targets with ease.
Minor math on them:
Sword: (0.6+0.6+1.1)/2.48 = 0.93 coeffs/sec. Then multiply by 3
MoP: (1+1+1)/2.75 = 1.09 coeffs/sec. Then multiply by 5
While there is a “3 second CD,” use two fingers at the same time to discharge MoP while also using other skills like GS#2/3/4, or even scepter #3/phantasms. Wells and shatters work as well. Even fill the gap with sword auto. Furthermore, if you have a sword equipped, MoP will proc both HM and FF bonuses. In fact each MoP discharge can proc 5 stacks of FF.
So best case scenario for the sword vs MoP, sword does “only” ~10% less than MoP+sword attacks. Worst case for sword which can happen a lot in open world dynamic events, it can easy do 20-80% worst than a build that uses MoP. It may have come across as shallow to say I spam MoP but it’s really not.
@Zenith, I don’t really care for open world zergy combat and when I do it, I’ll just spam MoP/shatters if I’m on my mesmer.
Furthermore, persistent lethal AoE doesn’t only punish mesmers. It’s a mechanism of zone control that punishes most melee builds to move away from a stack or force ranged characters to stop channeling powerful spells. So it doesn’t bother me that a phantasm would die to that because it doesn’t only punish the dps of AI builds.
Also, if it really is pulsing aoe then they are going to die no matter what even with 50% or whatever resistance. Permanent immunity is just… no. I play all parts of the game and I agree with Anet on parity between them, especially on something like this.
I think technically only the blind/teleport part is unblockable. The damage is blockable.
So like if you basilisk venom then blind something but the blind skill does no damage, it doesn’t proc basi.
This means that counter doesn’t prokittenil after you hit him with the blockable portion. The miss vs conditions happening, I would chalk up to a shatter wiffing on the blind.
Still not a fan of the condi variants comparing DPS to zerker because reflects are boosted by ferocity. If there was a condition damage, precision, ferocity armor, I would be all over that.
If it’s a long lasting aoe that kills illusions, I’m kind of ok with that. I would say the problem for ranger pets is more that protection doesn’t keep a glass pet alive vs a 1 hit ko. Distortion would be fine for Mesmers that time their dodes wells and although not perfect would be a major improvement for pve.
Thinking about the mistrust remake I recommended, zerker and swordsman do have built in evades that can further proc it. Would master of fragmentation cause reflect on illusion distortion? It wouldn’t have to be confusion for the aoe dmg.
I’m ok with traiting in for stuff. DE problem is more so that there are no good alternatives but chronomancer is somewhat fixing that. I think illusion aoe resistance in that sense should be traited for because most pvp builds are viable without it already.
I’m not against this change but given all the NPE stuff, as easy as it might seem to be for us on the mesmer forum to understand, I don’t think anet would do this because it would be too big of a change.
I am going to say that this is a terrible idea because it will make fighting phantasm annoying and unfun.
A better solution is to buff Protected phantasm to 2-3 seconds. It’ll be enough for a phantasm to make one attack, then you use a clone production skill/dodge and then shatter. This will work in large group situation.
Phantasm doesn’t need to immortal.
I think going this route is a lot better than aoe resistance/immunity.
However, I think it would be better for phantasms to just gain distortion when the mesmer dodges. Similar to Companion’s defense for rangers that gives protection to pets when they dodge. Alternatively, looking at ranger traits, barkskin is kind of the aoe resistance people could ask for but I think it would have to be something that is traited.
The reason I like distortion on dodge is that it’s perfect for PvE problems. Mesmers dodge the aoe while phantasms evade as well. Distortion can be given to illusions as already shown by Protected phantasms. It’s easy to understand what’s happening on the PvP side of things and seems fair. I think it should be specifically for phantasms as DE and this might be a bit too much for shatter spikes…. speaking of DE
Mistrust: When you dodge, your illusions gain distortion. When illusions evade attacks, they cause 2 stacks of AOE confusion.
This would be a contender for DE while sort of bringing back a clone death/immortal mesmer style of build but more active. It would make people question dropping AOEs on a mesmer with a ton of illusions up. Defender might be able to “double evade” an attack but that’s iffy.
Ok no math now but the fact that we have to do math is based off of a problem that will likely become larger in the future: Specific mechanics in fights that give bosses phases or immunity to damage unless condition x is met.
In the above example of arah, the green light buff is required to do damage. In p2 there is also the boss that requires a buff to do damage to her. In the living story glint cave, there is a boss that requires a buff to do damage to it. Illusions never get this buff!
Mesmers already require a build up time to start doing damage. There are phases for the newer bosses where they have short burn windows. Since these bosses tend to be invulnerable during non-burn phases/spam aoe, no illusion will survive. This means that each burn phase requires the slow build up of phantasms first. Meanwhile an ele, for example, is able to save the MS/IB combo and blow their load during the burn phase. Burn phase ends and they get to kite around while MS/IB recharge.
This isn’t a mesmer exclusive problem; it sucks for rangers too. I fully expect challenging group content to follow a similar boss design from the new story releases which will continue to prevent mesmer phantasms from doing anything. This is why I don’t think a 10 mesmer party is going to be able to do raids.
3x MoP rate is not 2.75, 2.75 is the activation time which is only part of the attack cycle. The time to blow those 3 charges is a minimum of 3 seconds in addition to the activation time. This does lower the dps number by quite a bit but after quick math its actually not too bad (just a little lower than the sword aa). On paper this is starting to look quite appealing, especially since you can channel your healing mantra while blowing MoP charges, for more Harmonious Mantra stacks and sustain.
It’s worth thinking of MoP as a 2.75 channel damage spell with a 3s cooldown (though not reduced by alacrity, lol), as it functions just the same: you can be doing other things during the cooldown.
This ^
I would rather have 2.75 seconds of nothing then (5.45+2.78) DPS for ~3 seconds instead of just 2.78 dps from only sword auto. Mix shatters in for both of them. Especially considering the 2.6k heal to counter the green light which let your damage go even higher. The numbers fall off especially when there are 3 or less targets but for 4/5, I think MoP is a much better alternative.
Wiki doesn’t have the power coeff for MoP but I’m pretty sure it’s ~1. Quick math:
(3 charges x 1 × 5 targets)/2.75 =5.45
vs
[(.6+.6+1.1)*3 targets]/2.48 = 2.78
So in a way it’s much better than the sword auto given mostly due to the 5 targets it can hit and just larger aoe. I just fill in the MoP discharge time with sword auto and shatters. And as you mentioned, it does keep a few of my not as scrubby teammates alive.
Well informed critique. Sword cleave is not pretty horrid due to the target limit, but also the radius. It’s pretty sad doing Arah p1 entities with all classes cleaving the champs down while strafing while I’m swinging there at nothing simply because my sword side-cleave is too 2@#$$!@n narrow.
Why not mantra of pain spam with some aoe healing to survive the green light?
Anyhow, I agree with problems but don’t think the base class will get a fix. I still think the best hope is an elite spec that changes phantasms/illusions and shifts dmg to Messner.
I’m pretty sure they data mined glyphs for Druids, you know, those useless elementalist utilities.
At least there’s something useless for Elementalists!
Some are niche but I wouldn’t call them useless.
When temporal curtain could be immediately pulled.
By far, I miss this the most.
Remember when enemy stealth killed all illusions?
I’m sure it’ll be dodgeable. In sentiment with others, I don’t care that other peopled crutches are being countered
And will on-interrupt effect proc if the CC was done while the enemy was channeling (without actually interrupting the enemy)?
This is one of my biggest concerns as it destroys almost a third of a mesmers trait functions.
For soft CC in general, I would much prefer seeing a weaker form of CC affect the boss in a unique way. Immob could maybe reduce move speed by 50%. Chill by 33% for move and recharge etc… just half the strength rather than making them generically the same. Or just add condi cleanses to the enemies or a diminishing return resistance to some of these or just the resistance boon itself.
Something I’ve dropped the idea of here and there but never really fleshed out before:
Problem: Phantasms make mesmer dps suck in PvE
Solution: Make phantasms buffs/boons that modify auto attacks rather than entities that die.
Example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ6wURth1oo
Video basically has the dead spirit phantasm attack when nero the mesmer attacks.
So going through the list of what phantasms buffs could do:
GS: Aoe cleave on auto attack
Sword: Single target max dps
Pistol: Ranged projectile+20 or 100% finisher (main hand pistol mesmer/gunsword)
Torch: Burning auto attacks
Focus: Short reflect at end of auto chain.
Staff: RNG Conditions
Shield: Can’t use shield with new elite spec
Defender: Protection on auto attack (“hammer mesmer”)
Disenchanter: Clears conditions in an aoe.
All of them should add some dmg but some are more utility than dps or vice versa. Only can summon one at a time. Can swap weapons and buff remains for set time. Can’t shatter phantasms but can replace the buff with a new one. Can only summon two clones as one “circle” is dedicated to the phantasm buff. The numbers would obviously have to be balanced in a way that some weapons are stronger than others, some only proc on the 3rd auto attack chain or they have an ICD.
I think the DPS could be balanced for a PvP mesmer while upping the sustained DPS of a PVE mesmer greatly. Furthermore, it allows a PvE mesmer to shatter freely without worry of phantasms dying. PvP shatters wouldn’t be too out of hand as only two clones could be summoned so it’s spike DPS would be lower than vanilla mesmer spikes. If it’s “too OP” maybe even make it so that a mesmer can only summon 1 clone at a time.
Fluff:
Borrows from shadow arts of the thief and uses deceptions. Could even call the phantasm buffs shadows. Call it a shadow dancer, or whatever. In a way, you could also consider the phantasm buffs like a duel skill#3 where thieves use both weapons at the same time.
Weapon:
As much as people want a new main hand, offhand dagger and a new phantasm seems like the obvious choice if borrowing from the thief. I would really like some form of leap. The phantasm buff could maybe have a short daze built into it (would need an ICD) or some kind of heart seeker DPS increase as the enemy gets lower on health.
Deceptions/utilities:
Elite: Shadow clone: This clone follows the mesmer for 20 seconds and doesn’t die when shattered. It inherits the phantasm buff on it’s auto attack.
At least 1 smoke field/blind for the offhand dagger leap to allow for stealth would be awesome.
Maybe something like
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grasping_Shadow
Decoy is currently a non-typed utility. Make it a deception. Maybe bring back clone death a bit. When this clone dies, it explodes for decent damage.
Utility (or maybe F5): Going along the lines with the new daredevil or berserker stun break, 1 utility could be a really short CD stun-break (10 seconds). However, it acts like a shatter. For each clone shattered (max 2 and IP doesn’t count), it gives 1 second of stealth. With PU, this means a max of 4 second of stealth when using this utility. This shatter would in and of itself do no damage. However…
GM traits
The reason I want to add “stealth spam” is because of the new GM traits. Just like the daredevil focuses on all the dodges with it’s GM, the new elite mesmer spec would focus on backstabs!? So 1 GM trait would basically give bonus damage on #1 while stealthed. Another might pulse slow/torment in an aoe while the mesmer is stealthed. (while it sounds op, it also gives you an indication of where a mesmer is, so swing at the air). 3rd GM trait could be like thief sword backstab with stun or blind depending on position.
I only run creative builds. And it’s fun. And it’s possible to play it very well. But you will have a difficult time fighting against most meta builds, even if you’re a better play than they are.
I ran a really awesome build during the last beta event. Of course, I got whispers telling me that my build sucks. It’s funny how society stresses individuality but really what people want is conformity, and ostracize you for not doing the norm.
Have fun. Use that creative build. Expect to have a hard time. Maybe in a future build your build will be the new meta. Who knows. Just have fun.
(only join groups with people who are chill for the best experience)
Thanks. I think this is what brings us, humans forward. Dare to experiment. The first one who invented the Meta build was experimented with it too. This is how others can have it now.
While true, just make sure to not stagnate on your build just because it’s your build. If it’s fun, have fun. If it’s not optional (it’s not) don’t try to argue that is optimal.
If you do better than a scrub that blindly follows the meta, it’s not your build that’s doing this.
If it’s too OP because alacrity is already a pain to balance then sure. I just remember someone asking about this a while ago and no one had an answer at the time.
Not a fan of this logic because…
“With few exceptions, CDs are implemented to adjust for unintended interactions, or too-frequent usage of skills. CDs are meant to keep certain skills from getting out of hand, and alacrity would mess with that balance.”
Arbitrarily saying one but not the other affects balance is silly.
It’s entirely because of the way they use ICDs. In general, they create a trait, put it in action, and learn that unrestricted use is just a problem. They then try to find the lowest icd that allows the trait to function the way they wanted it to, without causing the problem. In principle, this means allowing alacrity to apply would reintroduce some of those problems, and they’d have to go back and rebalance all the icds to account for it…or they could just disallow it.
The design philosophy behind cooldowns for abilities, meanwhile, attempts to incorporate the balance between cd and power from the beginning. Cooldowns aren’t fixes, they are part of the original design, so it’s okay for alacrity to apply, because the philosophy accounts for it.
That’s all. If they historically approached ICDs the same way they do skills or traits that use skills, it should in principle all be the same. Indeed, I’m sure some icds (Mirror of Anguish comes to mind) wouldn’t be a problem at all, but since that’s not a consistent philosophy, it’s kind of a can of worms I’d personally rather they not open.
Again, still don’t like this logic because how easily I can “twist your words:”
“In general, they create a skill, put it in action, and learn that unrestricted use is just a problem. (Except auto attacks and thief/rev stuff). They then try to find the lowest CD that allows the SKILL to function the way they wanted it to, without causing the problem.”
Anyhow, historically, most traits had ICDs just like skills have CDs. A few were missed and eventually fixed. The point about them being designed differently is moot. Both are balanced with CD/ICD and power in mind.
You know what though, none of this matters because history means nothing here. Traits were recently revamped at a time where the Devs knew of alacrity’s existence even if we did not. Most traits were turned into skills with skill CDs. Alacrity affects most of these. So why not?
The more I think about the thief/rev stuff is what makes me think it’s “not fair.” If chill doesn’t affect the ICD of some traits, then neither should alacrity. I don’t have time to test right now but I’m assuming chill does affect the ICD of skill based traits. Anyone want to check that/know how it works for sure?
I also have a question: does alacrity increases thief initiative regen (or revenant also) since those classes do not have cool downs in the same way?
Had a rev friend use 3 glint channels to have zero energy. Alacrity didn’t change it.
So, a friend of mine logged into his necromancer and it seems necro wells can be used underwater but the wells from mesmer can’t. Is this intentional or would mesmers be able to also use wells underwater upon release?
HoT content is still in development so you’ll notice various features not yet in the game. Some classes dont even have underwater skills. Thief get’s no steal skill from revenant. That sort of thing.
Ah, true. So most likely mesmer wells will be usable underwater (Null Field still isn’t usable in underwater?! WHY???).
Ground targeted skills usually require ground. So when you’re floating in a three dimensional environment there can be some complications with that.
So for necro wells are only put on you underwater. I guess null field and mesmer’s wells could also do that.
Necro wells used to be baseline PBAOE. Those work easy for underwater. Since mesmer ones have always been targeted, I think the UW versions just haven’t been implemented yet. I still don’t get why most target things cant just be only enemy or on self though. Null field on self uw? why not?
I did some testing during the last BWE with SoInspiration and its equivalent passive skill. I chained UtilityBar SoInspiration and then phantasm-SoInspiration right after while running full alacrity traits. I saw that the passive SoInspiration respected alacrity (passive SoInspiration was able to proc right after Utility SoInspiration when the latter came back up again.)
Will have to test this again when I get on.
This is interesting. I guess since a lot of passive traits use actual skills, it would affect those? Confounding suggestion isn’t based off of a skill, I didn’t see it work. I’ll try out a few more things.
Edit: Alacrity works with feedback on res as well and chaos storm on fall dmg.
(edited by DuckDuckBOOM.4097)
If it’s too OP because alacrity is already a pain to balance then sure. I just remember someone asking about this a while ago and no one had an answer at the time.
…
No. With few exceptions, ICDs are implemented to adjust for unintended interactions, or too-frequent usage. Alacrity as a buff is meant to increase the rate at which players can use skills, which have cooldowns as a potency limiter.
It’s a subtle distinction, but an important one. ICDs are meant to keep certain traits from getting out of hand, and alacrity would mess with that balance.
Not a fan of this logic because…
“With few exceptions, CDs are implemented to adjust for unintended interactions, or too-frequent usage of skills. CDs are meant to keep certain skills from getting out of hand, and alacrity would mess with that balance.”
Arbitrarily saying one but not the other affects balance is silly.
In case no one else has done so/I missed it, did a really quick test.
Equip MoD and Confounding Suggestions.
Both have a 5 second CD.
Drop Well of Recall.
Spam MoD as soon as it’s off CD again.
First MoD = Stun.
2nd MoD = Daze
I kind of expected it but =(
Do people think alacrity should affect ICD? This may be a moot point if the engine cant handle it though.
He says the meta doesn’t care about vulnerability when it does.
He compares a full DPS necro to a PS EA warrior without looking into how well it buffs the team.
He is trash talking scrub pugs. Then equates those pugs to decent players.
He claims the meta relies solely on line casting icebow 4. The “elistist” community deemed it an exploit and doesn’t use it for record runs themselves.
There is nitpick… and then there is the fact that the video is a strawman argument on every major point of his. I’m all for PHIW people enjoying themselves. My buddy and I did double lich bros on fotm 40/5o yesterday but his “logic” gives me cancer.
…
Part of this argument seems to be all about “Me” and “My damage” when compared to “that other class” and “its damage”. Problem is Chrono doesn’t look like its built with raw uncomparable DPS in mind. Its a team player. Party buffs, Wells, and CC heavy.Unfortunately, the issue you’ve missed is that support is only valuable insofar as it can feasibly replace dps. In short, support is great if it provides more group dps than it loses by not being a dps build.
But, and here’s the kicker, there are multiple support builds in the game already that provide siginificant support while still providing strong dps.
I think fundamentally this is where we are not seeing eye to eye. In theory, RAIDS/challenging group content isn’t going to be the same as current content. The best support for old content isn’t necessarily going to be the best for new content.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/designing-challenging-content/
An example:
“Other encounters will offer tasks that rely on the expertise of a few select players. This could be a specific creature that needs to be kited away from the rest of the group, otherwise exploding and dealing massive damage.”
What if that damage is unblockable? If aggro is random, then some groups might have a DPS ele or someone else forced to kite. Distortion share mesmer though would let anyone in the group tank it without having to stop channeling a big hitter.
Speaking of unblockable, what if an enemy puts up a shield every once in a while and stops people from being able to DPS during a burn phase? You might be able to wait it out but chronomancers have Well of Precog that would give extra time on the burn phase.
Burn phases: if you’ve played the story stuff you know that most bosses will be invulnerable for set amounts of time. % uptime on quickness might not be so important compared to the duration of it at a specific moment.
The mordrem assassin wolves used to shout retaliation on each other. I expect this to return in the raids. What happens to that Icebow4 meta when 5 enemies all have retal? Dead eles all over the place… unless you get a necro/mesmer to remove it all.
Stop saying that the utility of a guard for example is better + better DPS if you haven’t seen the new content. Given how they want to make raids challenging, I wouldn’t be surprised if Anet purposely tries to screw over the meta every way possible. They did it with Mallyx in gw1 and I hope they do it now with raids.
We’ve asked for Phantasms to be more than just damage pets since pre-release. I doubt Anet’s going to change that, it’s essentially a redesign of the Mesmer.
Unfortunately some ppl don’t realize that.
If it were to happen, it would have happened with the trait rework or on a new elite spec. The ship has sailed for chrono. Better to push forward new elite spec ideas that remove/change phantasms the way RS was a change for DS on necro.
Zenith, stop being dense and putting words in my mouth.
Buffing the shield DPS isn’t the way to go about things, especially when Robert Gee straight up tells you it’s not going to happen. So stop whining about it because that whining won’t do kitten here. If a dev says he might improve utility then lets focus on that. Try to be constructive and we might see some improvements.
@alpha
The shield goes out then comes back. It can hit multiple targets on its way out and on its way back it. Hence the AOE twice. Therefore, it can hit multiple targets multiple times.
Do to the nature of how it travels and hits anything it passes, this allows it to bypass the 3 or 5 target limit and hit everything. This means a raid of 10 ppl can all benefit from 1 mesmer. Whereas 2 PS-EA warriors are needed for everyone to feel the buffs.
Quickness is ok but I’ll mention my idea again. If shield 5 gives a decent chunk of alacrity, it would be a controlled burst of it during burn phases on a boss. A second mesmer would just increase the total alacrity uptime but that might be overkill depending on design encounter. Hence the potential need for only 1.
Moving alacrity from the phantasm to the shield would also make it much more controlled and not based off of the “paper thin AI that gets murdered by most bosses autoattack cleaves.”
Mikkel: that problem has been known for a long time. No post you make now is going to fix it. Myself and others have posted about it before. The best we can do is hope for improved utility when a dev says he might improve utility.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tides_of_Time
Read it.
30 second CD isn’t generous. Catching it on it’s way back is an automatic 30 second CD. Using F5 can let you double cast it and catch two shields coming back for a 20 second CD. Alacrity would bring that further down. Also it negates projectiles which you didn’t mention in the prior calculations.
And again… this is about the freaking shield. I repeat: we’re talking about a shield here! Not the class as a whole compared to another class. A 2 second AOE stun that can hit ALL targets lined up instead of pistol 5 stunning 1 target for 2 seconds is potentially really strong compared to pistol 5. It’s capability for AOE damage vs ALL enemies in the area compared to a sword or pistol phantasm is really strong AOE for the mesmer. It may not be the best compared to other classes. But with upcoming raids, I see it as a promising utility weapon to sometimes be used. Also, spawning two duelists then swapping to shield for #5 is not going to be some crazy DPS loss compared to the current mesmer meta.
AOE distortion share also has it’s potential if you want to compare the mesmer to guardian. If a boss has a quick multi hit attack, aegis won’t do much. Unblockable attacks will still be negated by that distortion share: Mai trin’s lightning bolts for example.
Robert Gee is talking about tuning the utility not the DPS. So stop your whining about the DPS. My concern is where the alacrity is placed and how inconsistent phantasms are. Placing 2 seconds of alacrity on the shield would make it a very strong utility weapon. Trait for 50% longer duration. Get hit by it twice and it’s 6 seconds of alacrity in an AOE. Catching the shield reduces the base to 30 seconds. That would be…. ~11 second CD if you toss in a mind wrack. I would bring that to a raid group. Best part is, you only need 1 mesmer for this. Raid groups will need 2 of the rest (such as PSEA banners) for the rest of team buffs because those only affect 5 people.
@Zenith
What do you expect to accomplish with that rant? Make the shield OP and suddenly make us viable with only chronomancer? Do you really want the shield to bring the mandatory DPS phantasm that all mesmers need to bring?
I am not denying that other classes have utility nor am I denying that mesmers have low DPS. Dungeons are on farm mode, being abandoned, aren’t changing and easy enough to solo on any class. I’m thinking about the direction that anet is claiming they are going to take the game with raids and how new roles might be required.
As I just mentioned, headshot is probably going to be crap vs the new break bar. The new dancing daggers are also 1/4 second stuns. Have you played the beta? Some of those breakbars required ~2 seconds worth of stun in 1 second. They were also happening more often and on multiple targets more than once every 32 seconds for venom share to work. It’s probably going to be even harder to deal with in 10 man content.
With new content that requires a lot of mobility, how does guardian bring better reflects? SoA is mentally handicapped AI. Wall of reflect doesn’t move. Between shield 5, mimiced feedback and focus 4 (I know it’s crap at times) mesmers can provide better short bursts of reflect/negation than guardians on the move.
Quickness: 1 guardian elite = 5 players for 5 seconds. 1 mesmer shield 5 = all allies in ranger for 3.5 seconds. Of course there is also F5—> TWx2 as well.
As I mentioned several times, I think alacrity has some real potential. Being shackled on the phantasm rather than the shield 5 is what will make it crap in the long run. Shield 5 does good damage for a mesmer. Don’t look to it as your savior. Create a new thread about buffing mesmer auto attacks and rant there.
My thoughts exactly! Especially when you combine shield 5# with Power Block, you get quite a nice amount of direct damage, vuln stacks, stun, quickness and therefore also passive damage.
And you’re going to proc Power Block how often in PvE?
I proc it fairly often when focus 4 and MoD vs trash mobs. The problem and solution is oddly the new break bar that’s coming. It prevents power block procs. HOWEVER, it also means that intensity of the stun matters. So a thief spamming head shot vs the old defiant is great but terrible vs the new break bar. A mesmer is going to be one of the better if not best class at reducing a break bar.
Passive damage, as Xy mentioned, is also a big deal. Since Shield 5 is a wall, it gives quickness to EVERYONE. In a raid of 10 people, 9 people attacking 50% faster while a mesmer /dances in a corner is going to be worth it when a “burst” phase happens.
I stand by my biggest problem being the position of alacrity. If it’s so hard to balance, don’t put it on something so inconsistent as a phantasm. Replace quickness with alacrity and give us 1 big chunk on shield 5. This will be much easier to balance as well. Alacrity is even kind of built into the shield 5 (reduce CD when it catches itself). Let the phantasms do something else.
WoW, 4k damage power block on a 40s cd stun; that’s like 5% of a fractal 50 mob’s HP. That’s like, a weak autoattack crit. 3.5 seconds of quickness IF the wall goes through twice through allies, 1.75 seconds otherwise.
Why do people keep saying 40 sec CD? It can be cast twice with F5 and catching it reduces the CD by 10 seconds. So sometimes a 20 second CD before alacrity kicks in to reduce it further.
Weak auto attack crit for other classes but better than any other auto attack for mesmer by quite a bit. Then add the base shield 5 damage. Then factor in that it can hit twice and interrupt twice. It can be roughly 5-6 times stronger than an auto attack for mesmer. That was a minor point though.
While it’s always nice to optimize for personal damage, mesmers are about group utility in organized groups. Read about the new raids and general breakbar changes. Someone is going to have the spike the break bar hard. If it’s only a 1-2 second window, what do you think is better? All the DPS eles swap to air and use air 3 for a major DPS loss? or 1 low DPS utility slot can go ham on that breakbar while buffing their allies for the burst phase that follows?
The only problem I have is the inconsistency of alacrity because it’s tied to a phantasm
Boost base health like they boosted base damage, or make phantasms scale with vitality?
I think scaling with vitality would be the easiest and fair solution. I still don’t get why it’s the one stat they don’t scale with.
My thoughts exactly! Especially when you combine shield 5# with Power Block, you get quite a nice amount of direct damage, vuln stacks, stun, quickness and therefore also passive damage.
And you’re going to proc Power Block how often in PvE?
I proc it fairly often when focus 4 and MoD vs trash mobs. The problem and solution is oddly the new break bar that’s coming. It prevents power block procs. HOWEVER, it also means that intensity of the stun matters. So a thief spamming head shot vs the old defiant is great but terrible vs the new break bar. A mesmer is going to be one of the better if not best class at reducing a break bar.
Passive damage, as Xy mentioned, is also a big deal. Since Shield 5 is a wall, it gives quickness to EVERYONE. In a raid of 10 people, 9 people attacking 50% faster while a mesmer /dances in a corner is going to be worth it when a “burst” phase happens.
I stand by my biggest problem being the position of alacrity. If it’s so hard to balance, don’t put it on something so inconsistent as a phantasm. Replace quickness with alacrity and give us 1 big chunk on shield 5. This will be much easier to balance as well. Alacrity is even kind of built into the shield 5 (reduce CD when it catches itself). Let the phantasms do something else.
Only in 1 main guild but I wouldn’t mind coming if you need another mesmer.
I am very skeptical that any group (10 mesmers especially) would be able to do it though because I’m not convinced that DPS checks won’t be a thing and I think a 10 mesmer group would fail at it.I seriously doubt there will be any form of DPS check in the beginning, until the optimal group comp is found.
Or you mean a mechanics in the fight where something has to be bursted down quickly?
If it is so that even on our glassiest build we cannot burst something, we can complain since it goes against their “promise”.
I mean mechanic of something bursting down quickly. It’s shown in a video. The group is trapped in a cage and they need to break a wall. Three ppl don’t make it out of the room in time = insta dead.
When they say any group, I don’t think they thought of 10 mesmers. I think it was more along the lines of any group of 10 friends with at least 1 ele in the mix kind of thing.
Only in 1 main guild but I wouldn’t mind coming if you need another mesmer.
I am very skeptical that any group (10 mesmers especially) would be able to do it though because I’m not convinced that DPS checks won’t be a thing and I think a 10 mesmer group would fail at it.
I wouldn’t say giving up all meaningful DPS. The mesmer can still reflect, ice bow 4 and double time warp.
For long sustained fights, 40% CDR on 2x staff eles is definitely worth it. A 2.4 second CD on lava font would add a lot of DPS. Especially in something like a 10 man raid if there is a backline 4 x DPS ele group 1x support mesmer. It would also affect the rest of your teammates that aren’t eles and they could do more damage as well.
Think about it another way, warriors (before PS) were brought for just banners or rangers brought for frost spirit/spotter… those aren’t that big of a buff compared to 40% CDR to an entire team. That isn’t even just DPS, it’s all the utility and defense as well.
The problem is more about the practicality of it. 1) The phantasms would probably die all over the place anyway. 2) Most ppl are very set in their rotation and CD. Messing with that would probably screw up their DPS rotation or they wouldn’t make use of it that well.
I would much prefer for alacrity to be buffed even more (80-90%) but be put on something that isn’t a phantasm. Keep the well with it. Make shield 5 have alacrity instead of quickness. Short burst of really strong alacrity could then be timed with when your team uses long CD abilities. Would be easier to balance this way as well.
Also worth noting that Sinister/Rabid have the same reflect performance as Berserker’s, so Assassin’s only gains as much dps over them via reflects as does over zerk anyway.
Here’s how I’d adjust my build for Sinister:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhEQNAW7ansICVohNoBOqBcrhFcDycBxekoBpJ7oMAr+XA-TxxCABAcQAYW9HnV+d8FAgq9HQ+JA6GGTJYAgDgd3Ndrbw4jP+4jPeXv7u7u7uFCQxCA-e
Also worth noting that this is wrong. Just in case the big patch changed something, I even went to do a quick test on karka spit barrages and it hasn’t.
Zerker/sin with Scholar: ~1.3k non crit, ~2.8k crit
Sinister w/ krait: ~1.4k non crit,~2.1k crit.
Only did 1 test of each but the barrages always do the same dmg within each barrage.
220% vs 150% bonus crits and 10% dmg modifiers are the only differences there. Then there are more bonuses that your build is missing besides also not having reflects >_>
Fencers finesse: 150 ferocity
HM: Potential 15% dmg
Domination: 15% reflect dmg from p.warden and 12.5% more from vulnerability
Sigil of force/night/slaying for 15.5% to 21% more.
Food: Seaweed salad or cheap food for 10% more or just more ferocity and precision.
Potions: 10% more.
That’s like 2 to 3 x the damage that your linked build with do compared to a meta zerker build. Each one of those you try to add to your build reduces the condi dmg by a lot.
I go first
1) Increase cast time to 2s or 3s and root yourself before you can lay down the well?
2) Remove the unnecessary dmg portion and stability parts of the skill?
3) Increase cooldown to around 180-200s?
A much simpler way to make it useful is to make the first pulse pulls. The rest of the pulses only inflict cripple thus provides counterplay via stun break or dodge/escape 1-3 seconds before the float hits (which is not a hard task either). As it stands right now that float will never hit anyone who knows how to walk out of the 240 range red circle in 3 seconds. That’s way to much counterplay for an elite skill. The first pulse pull will also benefit interrupt mesmers with CI, who can potentially root players with a careful timing of that skill. Thus provide skillful play and trait synergies. Counterplay will still be there with just a condi cleanse, which is a reasonable trade against a 90s elite.
I like the idea of pull at initial cast then float at the end for a quick fix but it still doesn’t feel elite.
The OP #1 gave me the idea of just making it a channel like Meteor shower for 3 seconds and keep the pulsing pull. So each second of channeling would pull and then float as the channel ends.
It would require teammates to pressure/interrupt the mesmer or apply stability. Halting strike could be “problematic” but then I say learn to play. Don’t spam skills in that elite well. It would let phantasms get an extra attack in on someone but would not allow for a full burst from the mesmer to make the “perma” cc unbearable. Damage could be reduced a bit as that would not be it’s main focus; self cc on mesmer but aoe cc on enemies.
For specs, chrono and domination is required for halting strike to “get out of hand.” So what else? dueling or chaos for the “mandatory” DE or CI? I don’t think it would be OP then.
Rather than change the base class, what about a new Elite spec that changes phantasm functionalities.
“Summoning” a phantasm now gives a buff for a set time. Every auto attack procs this buff. Visually would look like illusions or shadows that hover over your character and act when you act.
Auto attack with p.duelist buff and a magic bullet shoots out. Torch phantasm =burning in auto. Gs could add a cleave while sword phantasm would be single target. Not sure on focus. Defender could give prot.
Shield would not matter because only 1 elite spec at a time.
Only clones for shattering because it wouldnt get rid of of the new shadow buffs.
Yes, damage modifiers increase your personal reflect, aka. (traited) Temporal Curtain and Feedback. So Force is better in practice.
And no, it was base stats (Precisions and Ferocity) that affects your reflect damage. So your additional +7% crit chance kinda falls flat there.
But Accuracy is quite nice when you only want to poke your enemy with Swordmen and make sure the hit crits!
Those last two parts are wrong.
Base stats affect phantasm damage but accuracy wouldn’t affect phantasm damage/crit chance.
If fury affects my crit chance with reflects, I’m fairly certain that sigil of accuracy affects my reflects too.
Combine both of those for the niche situation of p.fury but not accuracy/force affects the reflect damage of a traited warden. 15% phantasm dmg affects the reflect damage of the warden as well.
Reactive lense and lock on are the respective traits in tools for utility goggles and analyze auto procs. They do take place of SD and kit refinement though.
Mesmer, thief and guard for the anti blinds. It’s a stun break+fury too. It comes with reveal/vuln on the toolbelt too to further counter some thieves and mesmers. The auto proc trait is also nice although it doesn’t proc on rifle 4 for better or worst when I tried it.
Up to you in the end.
You did mention pry bar/engineer. What about utility goggles? I normally have it with my SD engi build but there is also a trait in tools that auto procs them on CC/blind. This makes you immune to blind for 10 seconds.
I think it has a bit more WvW implications. Static field, when blasted, gives aoe swiftness to 5 ppl. Temporal curtain gives it to everyone that walks across. 2-3 mesmers would be a true perma aoe swiftness on a zerg of a 100 people.
For DPS, I think I would be more likely to bring Furious Interruption, Power block and mantra of pain/distraction unless the support mantras are needed. Would also likely bring DD instead of p.Fury. That’s assuming various defiant changes and interrupts work or that I go mantras. The new mimic being able to double up on a utility is pretty nice and with signet heal and feedback, doesn’t really leave much for HM to work with unless using MoP as an auto attack. With the passive from signet of midnight giving 20% condi duration… I wonder if that would be worth it over having no mantras… and if that’s the case, inspiration + aoe distortion on signet use for basically better defensive support than aegis on a shorter CD.
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-R;4k2l6107oWV71;9;4STV;0147056237;45sY0y;9;0kMy_0V10u
Go nuts with this idea and maybe even add runes of resistance. Defensive stats but basically aegis on signet use, share boons with SoI or phantasm summon. Distortion shared with the team.
For heavy reflects, as weird as it feels, I would drop dueling and go dom, inspiration, illusions.
EDIT: Sinister and reflects should not be in the same sentence. Ferocity affects reflects. If they ever come out with a precision, ferocity, condi dmg stat then a condi reflector could make more sense.
Mesmer still looks to be a pretty crappy condition class as well.
…
The condition ramp up of staff is the problem. You need to be able to frontload large condition stacks not slowly build up to them, and the staff projectile bounce is what 3 targets.
In the time you’ve ramped up the stacks a direct damage build would have far bursted past that, and in the case of trash the trash will be dead before any of them get more than 3 stacks.
The reason warrior and engineer are powerful condition classes is because they frontload conditions rather well, and naturally cleave in addition to having reliable access to several of them, not the garbage RNG mesmer is subject to.
In addition to that, both warrior and engineer have high base damage nummbers and coefficients for the power-scaling portions of the skills, whereas the mesmer autoattacks do horrendous damage, especially the scepter and staff.
Why do I feel like I’m the only one that was looking at sword+focus/pistol while most people keep looking at scepter/staff? Vulnerability now affects conditions and a cleaving confusion on crits with the sword make it one of the best aoe cleave condi weapons for mesmer that also has the highest base auto attack. Warden for AOE and Duelist for single target have high/highest power damage for mesmer phantasms so the last part about coefficients is wrong.
12 whirl finishers or 8x 20% chance projectile finishers will also be a big deal through fire fields, chaos or poison fields as well.
Something as simple warden, SotE, warden, blurred frenzy = 32 confusion and 24 bleeds in 6 seconds aoe. Using focus 4 for an initial pull and MoD to interrupt trash mobs = 2 aoe confusion for each mob that is interrupted. Then add 24 whirl finishers. Then shatter for chronophantasma to kick in and repeat. Comparing this to engi or warrior… I don’t think it’s fair to say mesmers don’t frontload conditions that well or that mesmer condi weapons are on their low power coeff weapons (although mesmer’s coeffs are sorta low in general).
That is an amazing video btw.