Guild Wars 2

Rant/Intro:
I’ve finally accepted that elite specs are power creep and Chronomancer has somewhat ruined base Mesmer. With the new expansion on the way and therefore a new elite spec for Mesmer, I decided to toss my ideas at the forum/Devs. Probably hopeless but I can dream/be bored. This is meant to be a selfish DPS/interrupt elite spec for Mesmer. Numbers I give are of course guidelines and can be shaved (>_>) up or down. Base Mesmer DPS is low in PvE but the shatter burst hits hard enough in PvP to cause a balance discrepancy. To balance this out for a DPS elite spec, I reworked shatters to be pulsing AOEs while also giving more DPS to the Mesmer and phantasms.

Emo Gunslinger
Boring name, someone else more creative than me can easily change it.
Main Hand Pistol Skills:

1. Auto attack: Pierces, 1200 range, 20% projectile finisher. 0.8 Coeff/second
   -Clones get 20% projectile finisher. DD will give all pistol skills a 50% chance to bleed.
2. Charged Shot: Hits 1 or 3 targets max. CD 12 seconds. 1200 range.
   -Tap for a quick single target 1/4 second daze and minor damage: 0.3 Coeff
   -Charge a (0.5-1.5 seconds) short time for piercing 1 second daze: 0.8 Coeff.
   -Charge a (1.5-2 seconds) long time for a piercing 2 second stun: 2 Coeff.
3. Magic Bullets:
   -Fire 8 bullets in 1.5 seconds. (0.3 × 8 = 2.4 coeffs). Bullets can bounce 2 times. 15 second CD. 900 range. 100% Projectile Finisher.

Main-hand Pistol Discussion
I wanted to create a Pistol/Pistol elite spec that was predominantly focused on selfish damage and interrupts. The dueling trait, Duelist’s Discipline, recharges pistol skills on interrupts and gives pistol skills a 50% chance to bleed. This inherently decides how main-hand pistol is designed. I gave the main-hand pistol another interrupt (2) with a strong burst (3). Pistol 5 can recharge 2-4 and Pistol 2 can recharge 3-5 with Duelist’s Discipline. This creates a snowball offensive weapon where interrupts (2 and 5) are meant to fuel strong bursts (3/4). 2 and 5 can also be used offensively with traits such as Mistrust/Power Block. Pistol 2 is an interrupt that becomes stronger as you channel it but the enemy also knows it is coming. Play a bit of chicken with who dodges/releases the charge first. If it hits maximum channel time (2 seconds), it auto discharges. There is no illusions on this weapon. That is intentional. Quickness on interrupt in domination now has some play as 2 and 3 are channeled skills that could make good use of it. DD doesn’t require 2 pistols. Focus 4, sword 4.2, MoD, etc can also interrupt and proc main-hand pistol DD recharge. Torch/stealth could also be used to hide the charging up of Pistol 2. If this is deemed too strong, the trait can be given an ICD so that it can only recharge pistol skills by 25% once per second. Every skill is a projectile and can be reflected.

Of note, this elite spec doesn’t have to have a main-hand pistol for other stuff to work. Copy paste axe auto on warrior. Have a cleaving spin daze attack on axe 2 and a burst on axe 3. Although less synergy with DD, it’ll still be there. Make it a mace if you want to spin around with Moot instead. The reason I mention this is that Anet also likes the aesthetic of main-hand not being heavier than the off-hand. So Pistol/Sword may disqualify main-hand pistol for Mesmer. I would much prefer a Main-hand though as we have 2 compared to 5 off-hands.

Been thinking about this for a few months and have a write up on an elite spec idea that wasn’t finished. I might just post what I have tonight even if it isn’t fully done.

Silverkey.2078:

For me, there are a few roles which I would like to improve on. The first example is phantasm-free sustained damage. Sadly, I don’t see how this can be done at the elite spec level, so I feel this should be fixed at the core level (as usual see my suggestions in my signature).

I don’t think they will do a rework at this point. I think the best place for a DPS buff to Mesmer is an elite spec. Since Chrono keeps getting base Mesmer nerfed, I’ve accepted the elite spec power creep. That isn’t going to change. Base mesmer won’t get buffs or chrono will ruin it even more.

Loony.3714:

We have pretty great burst but our sustain is really lacking. While im not sure how to accomplish this, and personally enjoy the support role, I think a damaging role should be next.

Levetty.1279:

Mad deeps.

Doubt they will do a big phantasm rework for an elite spec (or ever) but with a combination of traits, replacing F1-4 and a new weapon something decent could happen.
…
Not sure on utilities but we will need swiftness, condi cleanse and depending on the weapon and what they do to shatters with the spec we will need more aoe.

So idea I had:
F1 and F2 are now pulsing AOE. Burst is lower but the sustain DPS becomes higher. This also means the elite spec can buff phantasm/other mesmer damage more without making them “OP” in PvP with high burst and sustain DPS in infamous 6/6/6/6/6 builds.

Example utility: Illusion of Weakness: 1 sec cast time. Gain self weakness, current phantasms do 30-40% more damage for X time. Would be mostly useless in PvP but gives a nice buff to PvE dps. Other utilities would be selfish in different ways.

Pistol/Pistol: Heavily focused on interrupt and damage with little defense. With DD it would be an interrupt/DPS snowball weapon set.

For dungeons and fotm, the answer is always zerker/assassins (unless going condi but condi has weaker reflects). The sigil is basically a choice of an extra ~4 seconds of quickness per boss or sigil of air (it’s really not as great as some ppl say but better than nothing). If you want to go full try hard sigil of night or slaying help with reflects too. So basically how many weapons are you willing to have and how often you are willing to swap them changes the answer.

For raids, some ppl don’t like that sigil because the rotation is harder but I stand by that plus food and a herald being 100% enough of the time. When you get boon duration from equipment stats is when there is no herald. How you get it… I think the doubloons are better than ascended. Basically losing sigil of air for 33% boon duration is the easiest trade off to make of dps to boons

For dungeons: You don’t need boon duration. F5 and TW is enough as fights are short. What matters more is reflect damage = precision, ferocity and rune of scholar or basically berserker/assassin+rune of scholar serves you best. Exotic armor is fine here.

The only place ascended armor really matters is fotm and agony infusions. Fotm is closer to dungeons with reflects mattering. However fights last longer than in dungeons, especially at tier 4 so boon duration is still more important than dungeons. Since I often bring feedback and even SotE for perma reflect on some fights, this leaves little room for SoI+wells. Boon thieves from lvl 81-100 can also really put a stopper on quickness as even if you dodge every attack, your team probably wont. Portal can also take a spot… basically Rune of Chrono isn’t as best in slot in fotm as it is in raids. I would actually recommend either scholar for reflects or leadership+sigil of concentration and food for 93% boon duration if you are going to try and force boons into this. Actually… now that I think about it, I wonder if arcane thievery+SoI might have some weird synergy with boon thief…. anyhow…

With raids Rune of Chrono and hitting 100% boon duration become much more important but also ascended matters less. Without a stable group it’s really hard to say especially with whether or not a group expects you to tank determining whether you want the toughness or not. Herald or not changes a lot too.

So yeah, because of rune choice, the answer to your actual question is tough as it depends on which mode you are in. I just picked Rune of Chrono for the math:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hGDRyA-npoRAv7kmNfmMeDy7lcMgrQxUgBjOjPC9lq0/edit?usp=sharing
Columns K-N answer the math of tankiness, dmg, reflect damage and boon duration. TLDR to your question Basically for each 20% boon duration from ascended commanders, you lose 13-18% dps.

If you even decide to raid, it honestly might be easier for exotic jewelry berserker or knights and commander set for you. Socket doubloons in there for 24% boon duration (more than ascended commander anyways). These let you easily swap between tank and dps in raids while having decent boon duration with or without a herald. Check row 5/6 in the excel file and just swap to berserker trinkets if the group doesn’t want a tank/has a herald. Spares you having two sets of ascended armor with commander and berserker.

As other ppl mentioned the question is more about solo survival. This inherently comes down to the trade off of dmg vs survival since slow killing reduces survival. Our damage sucks two fold in meta (dungeon and raid) builds in solo situations since we don’t stack might and vuln well on top of low base damage. While gs ranged spam has a bad reputation (don’t do it in groups) it can work with a specific setup. Domination illusions and chrono can have 60% cd on gs illusions. Cr and pom reduces gs4 further. You now have decent might and vuln solo offsets low base dmg. (Gs2, shatter might, and the occasional clone auto). Sword shield is your defensive swap.

Basically p defender gs4 2 3 and f1. F2 after phantasms attack again. Repeat. Very little auto spam. WoE for condi clear. Last 3 spots are pretty open which helps wit whatever survival you need. I don’t think it’s the best of all classes if you aren’t afraid to melee but it’s not the worst.

ResJudicator.7916:

Shield 4 is the only phantasm skill that your opponent can actively prevent by dodging.

Most mesmers, or just people that have played the game for a long time know/have been trained to think that you dodge the phantasm attacks, not the summon. I would have never thought to try that. Thank you for this info because this further proves to me the skill isn’t actually OP and I learned something new.

you ask the impossible now. if players want to learn, they would spar with friends/guildies or even make a mesmer of their own and see what classes that can defeat them and how. they chose not to. they chose to go to the forum and write their true feelings.

2 avengers + 1 defender in ideal situations, shatter them you get 2 avengers + defender in ideas situation (total reduction 12 seconds with pom) + around 8-9 seconds of alacrity (4*2.x depending on trait) if you shatter those 3 new phantasms again, you do not get an illusion. illusionary reversion does not work on phantasms. so you are looking at 6 phantasms max (which any half skilled player will deny you)

@Melandru, do you think the above tip is in any way intuitive? Some moves are easily and intuitively countered. Knowing the above tip, not well known. Knowing about unblockable attacks, not well known. If people don’t know about these, yeah they will complain. I won’t stop everyone from complaining but most smart people will read, learn to counter and less complaining will happen and more reasonable people will speak up against nerfs. I more so wish that we had more ways to pull of illusions like that because this combo is so OP within the mesmer class and we don’t have anything else really like it.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Illusionary_Reversion
Two illusions (phantasms and clones are both illusions) not two clones. CP phantasms take priority over the clones which is why you need to shatter 3 phantasms twice to get a clone afterwards. Shatter two phantasms —> two phantasms and a clone and then another clone after the 2nd shatter. 1 phantasm and 1 clone--> 1 phantasms and a clone with a bonus clone after.

Stow weapon/dodge are important points in learning to counter this ability. I manage on my glass ele (air overload and staff air5/earth4 help a lot too for massive aoe to cleave or unblockable cc) and condi reaper(transfer it back and WH#4) when fighting Chronos. I also think warriors are still going to be the class that counters mesmers with resistance and signet of might cc. With that said, look at how much it combos with all the other traits.

2 phantasms + a 3rd with mental defense. Shatter them and then shatter 3 phantasms again with chronophantasma. Spawn a clone after the 2nd round of shatters. That’s 7 illusion from 1 skill (and traits) but that’s way higher than anything else we got for illusion generation. 6 phantasm shatters is also 12 seconds CD reduction from PoM on a 24 second CD ability and this combo also gives 10 seconds of alacrity which results in a 9 second CD for a skill that lets you block for 3 seconds.

This is of course ideal situations with Chrono and without this combo (and it can be countered/disrupted as I mentioned above) Chrono/mesmer falls out of play very quickly in PvP. It saddens me that Anet gives Mesmers other ways to spawn illusions without using DE but still… you are deluding yourself if you don’t think that is an over the top combo for PvP. Reason I won’t say nerf it is because DE may have been enough before the power creep that was HoT but without this combo Mesmer doesn’t stand a chance in PvP.

Another too good in ideal situations, horrible in other situations that mesmers fall into all the time which makes it impossible to balance. Taking away that 2nd phantasm, would help bring the combo itself in line for PvP yet probably take Mesmer out of the meta for good and be an unnecessary nerf for PvE.

Only thing mesmers can do are to list more counters and help people learn to fight this combo.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable

That’s what I’ve been saying since a while back. However, I think Master of Fragmentation (and other shatter traits) needs to be heavily considered with any new shatters. I would put my final thoughts on it as:

F1: MW 2.0: Power damage with maybe bonus damage vs slowed enemies.
F2: Cry of Torment: Torment (Because slow and confusion don’t mix in this elite spec).
F3: Stolen Speed: Single target slow enemy and alacrity to mesmer (3-5 seconds per illusion).
F4: CS: Same as current F5.

So how do these interact with MoF? F1 and F2 are fairly straightforward. Cripple with torment is a nice touch. Power damage has a 10% higher crit chance. Mental anguish still buffs the power damage from F1 as it remains only power damage. F3 + MoF = AOE slow and alacrity. F4, same as you mentioned but the reflect bubble would be on the rift, not the mesmer.

So with an F4, F3, F3 combo, you can get a lot of aoe alacrity to your teammates if you bring illusions+MoF. F1 remains power while F2 remains condi but a bit of flavor change that better fits the chrono. Awtew can be changed so that chrono doesn’t have to well spam for alacrity and quickness. Shield phantasms could apply slow but maybe not alacrity (pick something else.) If you really want to go the support route, maybe healing when wells end or per pulse or just back to condi clear from the beta. Potential interaction with Seize the Moment for aoe quickness too on F3. Boon share from TW and SoI + quickness on shatters would still be a thing.

PvP chrono would face a tough choice of team alacrity or ineptitude if they go illusions which makes alacrity easier to balance in PvP as I suspect most people won’t choose the aoe alacrity route unless going support. However, having to take both chrono and illusions to support limits diversity but in a way that I think would create a healthier chrono tank that the prior iteration or at least make it easier to balance with the aoe alacrity support in mind.

PvE chrono would be “forced” to play a shatter role if they want to support with the alacrity and quickness. If Seize the moment is picked instead of Chronophantasmsa, the F4/F3/3 combo would be a bit tougher to pull off without MI etc. Buff base phantasms damage and now we have base PvE mesmer as a DPS role while Chrono can play a shatter support role. Furthermore, it can be either condi or power instead of the current iteration which is only power for support and never a main DPS.

Has anyone checked if malicious sorcery stacks with quickness now?

“Quickness/Slow: The formula for animation-speed increases and decreases has been modified. Quickness is normalized to behave the same as before, while Slow has had its effectiveness reduced. However, due to the formula change, Slow will continue to have a negative impact while Quickness is in effect. The table below indicates how this change works.
Skill Cast With Old Quickness With Old Slow With Both Old With New Quickness With New Slow With Both New
10 seconds 6.66 seconds 20 seconds 10 seconds 6.66 seconds 15 seconds 11.66 seconds
This change allows for more fluidity, as the previous animation-speed formula caused slowing effects to be stronger than we desired. As an added benefit, we have not reduced the effectiveness of any trait that modifies attack speed, so these traits will see a boost in speed given.”

The last part sounds like it might actually stack now? or is that just weird wording about some slow + IAS trait interaction?

Step.1285:

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

…

…
Plus, very few Mesmer abilities actually have a huge impact when cast multiple times with CS. Nobody’s going to be up in arms because the Mesmer cast Mind Stab or Decoy twice. Of course, there are some exceptions to non-elite skills that do have a big impact, such as Signet of Domination’s pretty ludicrous 3-second stun, but they are outliers. I’m a firm believer that the main “offenders” when it comes to questionable balance with CS are the elites, and right now, I think most of Mesmer’s elites have decent counterplay, even with CS. The only exception to this is Moa, which is a ridiculous and extremely binary skill, and I wouldn’t oppose a nerf to it in return for a buff to other areas, so that Mesmers aren’t pigeon-holed into taking that skill.

@ Bolded: That’s the huge problem with the base class. Why? Portal, moa, veil, TW. Those skills are “so strong”, it’s “warranted” all the nerfs/weakness of the rest of the class. CS turbo charges these strong skills and a now a new round of “nerf mesmers!” has emerged.

Step.1285:

May I also remind you that doing something like removing elite usage in CS will have huge implications on PvE, especially in the way of Time Warp. It’d be a massive nerf to quickness Chronomancers, which wouldn’t reflect well for their viability since so many classes benefit heavily from quickness.

Lastly, other elite specs aren’t in danger of being toned down in power due to Chronomancer. A future elite spec will have to replace Chronomancer’s trait line, so it won’t be balanced around CS.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-January-26-2016/first#post5957898
But it will be balanced around CS/chrono. Just look at the defensive trait nerfs. Do you think any of them were actually justified at all to base mesmer? For the most part, all those traits were considered weak and underused before chrono happened. They deserved buffs. Chrono happens and instead of only heavy nerfs to chrono, base mesmer traits are gutted. That’s on top of the alacrity and quickness/slow stomping nerfs. Chrono CS is the excuse/reason to nerf even those strong skills. So what are future elite specs left with? A weak base to build off of.

If they nerf the double TW etc with CS, we can demand reduced CD and/or increased duration on TW. Alternatively, ask for a pve/pvp split to bring back the 100% increase to PvE only. Less duration but strong effect is fine.

Step.1285:

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What I will concede is that it’s absolutely true that CS has big implications on the balance decisions of the class. Whenever ArenaNet tweak something in Mesmer’s kit, they’re going to have to think about its interactions with CS. Personally, I am more than happy to suffer some balance consequences for the sake of keeping the skill as it is, because it’s a really awesome mechanic.

While elite specs have power creep across the board, which class do you think has it the worst when it comes to the elite spec being the reason to nerf the base class? While thieves can complain about S/D acro, that was one trait line. Bomb heals on engineer? maybe 1 GM trait. CS, as you said, means that any potential buff to base mesmer, besides our terrible auto attacks, has to be considered with CS in mind. Nothing else compares to that.

In the AMA initiated by Mo, they announced that an expansion is in the works and elite specs only come with expansions. Which classes future elite spec gets shafted because of the first elite spec that came out? Only Mesmer because the base has to be held in check to prevent CS making it OP.

It’s not about self loathing, it’s about balance. Balance between classes, balance within each classes skills/traits and balance between base Mesmer and Chrono. Elite specs were meant to be side-grades not upgrades but base mesmer already had a lot of problems as is with portal and moa complaints justifying nerfs to the class. Chrono amplifies those problems with F5.

Suggestions such as make F5 portal which gets turned into CS for Chrono frees up a base mesmer utility slot which is sorely needed and prevents CS+portal combos. Personally, I don’t think this goes far enough.

F4 Base Distortion —> F4 Chrono CS
F3 Base Daze —> F3 Chrono, 4 seconds self alacrity+chill enemy
-Master of Fragmentation: AOE alacrity sharing (no more well spam)
F2 Base confusion —> F2 Chrono Torment
F1 Base DMG —> F1 Chrono: Less damage but also slows

The above changes will probably never happen. I don’t think any real main mesmer cries for nerfs because they think we are strong compared to other classes (at least not right now). It’s about the balance inside the class that needs to change and the hope(lessness) that small changes that will happen can balance things out: balancing F5 with base mesmer is impossible.

@Pyro
Did you not read my whole post? I explicitly say that the Mesmer DPS doesn’t compare to melee classes on stationary targets and we need a sword buff to be competitive to other melee DPS. And no, raw mesmer DPS is not competitive on a spreadsheet. It’s the exact opposite. It’s only competitive as more factors that mess with melee DPS from (below) average players are tossed into the scenario. While the OP may be wrong in comparing himself to only bad players, there is merit to the idea that Mesmers “pivot” really well. It also means we swap targets/aoe very poorly. Our damage also isn’t affected much by quickness and alacrity which is both a boon and curse depending on the situation.
Again:

Most of us typing here have been playing for 3+ years and while the idea of an easily pivoting mesmer or bad pugs is a distant/forgotten memory to us, doesn’t mean these players don’t exist in fotm/dungeons. We also have very little of an idea as for what the new raid wing(s) will look like.

New raid wings is sort of like starting over again. As people are learning brand new mechanics for fights, I would much rather have a bunch of Sc/Sw mesmers or Sc/P condi mesmers than average players trying new squishy meta builds that are focusing too much on rotations/ positioning of their build rather than mechanics/ positioning of the fight. Unless a fight has environmental weapons built into the mechanics, at current balance, stacking Mesmers won’t be a thing for records. That doesn’t mean that it won’t have it’s moments for more raid wings as a “noob” friendly build / ranged team DPS. Despite the fact that hammer DH is “3rd highest DPS,” most pugs still don’t accept them because people have been foolishly bashing on them for so long in raids. I’m not asking you to over sell the Mesmer to everyone but do it justice for what it can do. It’s pretty decent at either pivoting or team buffing. If the new raid wing has no fights where mobility is important, I will be surprised/sad with the Raid team’s lack of “creativity” going forward.

I’m not sure I understand how this new rollover skills work for phantasms. Example: Focus #5. 25 second CD on the storm and this storm summons the phantasms. The roll over skill has a 14 second CD. Does this mean once the phantasm is summoned, I must reactivate #5 every 14 seconds to get the phantasm effect? What if I weapon swap, does the phantasm do nothing? What if I use SotE to recharge the skill and try to summon 2; do both phantasms activate at the same time?

A+ effort and some really cool ideas but sadly, as much as I want a rework to base mesmer, I don’t think it’s going to happen. With that in mind, I would much prefer and think it’s more feasible for new elite specs that change the phantasm mechanic/shatters. Would also mean buffs to base mesmer skills could happen without affecting elite specs.

I think a lot of your ideas could work for an elite spec. Thinking marionette / revenant style of elite spec. Invocation/Phantasms skills have an active effect. Could be the same active effects you have listed. However, instead of roll over for phantasm effects, the mesmer now gains modifiers based off of which phantasms are being “invoked.” Example: Invoke the torch phantasm and all your attacks now have burning added to them.

Jace al Thor.6745:

But, since the average player complained, loudly, about all of those build and amulets even, they got nerfed. Some so hard they don’t exist anymore.
So essentially I believe its more important to base your buffs and nerfs not off the average player, but the above average player.

It wasn’t just below average players complaining about the bunker meta. Top PvP players hated it too. The over nerfs seem to be Anets form of completely stomping out a playstyle and trying to create a meta shift. Whether or not Anet failed (success in changing meta, failure to properly shave), that’s another discussion to be had.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w
Decent series to watch for insight into game balance and just game dev in general. Again, whether or not Anet succeeded is another discussion BUT balance needs to be done at multiple skill levels of the game. It’s not a black and white that everyone is making it out to be with balance being done at one level.

http://imgur.com/JUh19RP
This was me casually throwing together a DPS mesmer after the “scepter buff patch.” Exotic Scepter+Accuracy. Ascended sword with strength because as you can see, my might still wasn’t capped in the ranged group. Rune of chrono because I didn’t bother swapping armor. Forgot to actually equip the scepter trait too >.<. Anyhow, average of about 13k per swordsman attack. Every 3.2 seconds x 3 = 11k DPS from just the phantasms. Before people say “BUT setup time and phases!” I have a weapon swap and the boss goes invulnerable for several second each swap. 9 conditions on the boss would have made staff fine. I prefer getting 3 swordsman up when possible as they don’t get blocked by the red circles. They also keep the ferocity bonus at about 6 stacks. So 1 offhand phantasm, sword/6/sword then another swordsman when ready.

Melee wise, hammer guard, thief and D/WH ele will do more than a DPS mesmer. For people saying Mesmer DPS is poor, have most of you actually run a DPS meter on the ranged team? Like do you actually know how much meta builds do when they are constantly moving the green circles? And when VG is constantly stepping out of your AOEs. The guildies I run with that use a DPS meter usually average out 11k by the end of the fight on ranged condi engineers if not worst. Personally, I hit about 16-18k on condi necro in phase 1 then I drop down to 12k by the end of the fight on the DPS meter. If 3 swordsman/staff phantasms = 11k DPS and only have a build up of 4 seconds, base power mesmer competes with other ranged DPS classes. That 22k Scepter #3 is just a bonus!

Most of us typing here have been playing for 3+ years and while the idea of an easily pivoting mesmer or bad pugs is a distant/forgotten memory to us, doesn’t mean these players don’t exist in fotm/dungeons. We also have very little of an idea as for what the new raid wing(s) will look like. If slothazar or the other bosses are more like VG which requires constant movement of both the boss and a ranged team, base mesmer DPS will be a thing because most above average skill players on meta builds will not reach anywhere near the theoretical maximum of said build. If there aren’t more body blocking red orbs, staff/MoP spam could be a thing. If there are environmental/conjure weapons happening in raids, only the mesmer can maintain 11k DPS WHILE holding an environmental weapon or just not attacking at all. Even with 1 chrono providing quickness, another base mesmers using TW & SoI to share quickness and other boons around means that the chrono doesn’t have to go ham on the quickness/boon duration. Could we use a buff to base mesmer DPS still? Yes, phantasms could inherit more of our damage modifiers. We could use a huge buff to sword auto attacks in both PvE and PvP. Regardless of needed buffs to be equal to pure melee meta builds, DPS Mesmer may still have it’s uses in future raid wings. Chrono team buffs will still be a thing too.

With regards to #4: When people were getting so hung up the “66% DPS boost to the team” phrase, I was one of the people saying that the nerfed alacrity + quickness is still good and worth it; just requires different subsquad organization:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/47k73f/qt_6_man_no_updraft_gorseval/
6 people no updraft Gorsy kill with a mesmer being integral for both the DPS boosts and the distortion share. If anyone is running around saying that Chrono DPS boosts isn’t “mesmer dps” or that chrono isn’t worth a spot after alacrity nerf, they don’t know what they are talking about when it comes to raids because I highly doubt qT decided to handicap themselves with a chrono on such a tight DPS check that “requires 97k dps from the group to no updraft.” If alacrity/quickness chrono is still that good and worth it, I think it’s actually safe to say alacrity deserved a nerf. (Lack of PvP buffs was poor form from Devs.)

With regards to #1-3, chronomancers are “forced” to make that choice between support and DPS in raids because our support is too good and DPS too mediocre in comparison. Yes, with #2, 3, you are correct, it’s easy DPS and we can do other things at the same time in fotm and dungeons but with raids, bad tempests and reapers are not the balance standard. With that being said, I messed around with DPS mesmer briefly after the “scepter patch.” 22k out of a scepter 3 and sword phantasms hitting ~13k. It was a dom, duel, illusion base mesmer. I was using rune of chrono instead of scholar and a kittenty scepter since I was just messing around. Bring a iDisenchanter for boon removal instead of sword auto. Drop TW and SoI every once in awhile. People seriously overestimate how much DPS most classes do on ranged duty. So in this case, yes those 3 swordsman when VG is moving probably do more DPS than most other classes that keep running to green circles as VG steps out of their pulsing AOE. 22k scepter #3 is just icing. Will future raid wings potentially have use for this? Maybe, but that means forcing roles where you cannot focus on melee DPS and are required to do something else.

TLDR: You’re right for the most part in that we are still strong in PvE raids. Our DPS still isn’t that great given how most enemies are designed in a way that all classes can non-stop DPS them without being forced to focus on another task. Those DPS classes do upwards of twice the DPS mesmers can do. Change how enemies/encounters are designed and mesmer DPS becomes more viable for those roles.

Does it work on skills that are already on cd and do +15 or just turn a random skill to 15 sec. If it’s stun and not interrupt, could have some interesting pve play too. Shield 5 for 2 and MoD with cs can shut down half of someone’s bar in pvp.

Limiting interrupt builds (which already exist without main hand pistol) to mostly the pistol isn’t a bad thing. All the shatters I mentioned aren’t interrupt specific and would work just fine with any other weapon.

When I mentioned physical utilities, I was mostly thinking selfish utilities. I wasn’t really thinking about CC so much as some sort of weird combo of physical, tricks and rage skills. The old Mimic is a great example of what could be a “physical mesmer” skill. A channeled block similar to bandits defense. It doesn’t have to be a knockdown as the roll over skill. Perhaps the wrong category name to use without describing them in more detail. Something that could give us frequent leap or blast finishers wouldn’t hurt at all. In fact that would couple well with chaos for protection on chaos armor to make a much more bruiser-esque physical mesmer that blasts ethereal fields often with an elite GM trait that adds further resilience to the mesmer. That is not to say that some couldn’t CC, just that not all of them would be aoe CCs.

There isn’t really the “rest of the elite spec” as I haven’t fleshed anything out fully. Just a few general ideas.

1) Main hand pistol for major interrupts. Heavy burst with long CD on pistol where interrupts fuel/snowball the burst.
2) F1-F4 become zone control pulsing AOEs with better DPS than base mesmer but then your enemies could decide not to stand in them.
3) Selfish physical utilities that can be used as a personal mesmer dps increase while adding resilience to the mesmer that isn’t so stealth focused.
4) Decently powerful elite “game changing” GMs with the other traits being minor bonuses. I didn’t do the best with this as they were tossed together last minute.

Overall, I think those would make a much better/easier to balance elite spec mesmer with a mainhand pistol and the current DD trait.

I think DD can work well with an elite spec pistol main hand interrupt IF interrupts aren’t all over the place. It’s like alacrity on chrono. It can easily balanced if controlled but… they put it on phantasms and shatters and wells and kitten hit the fan. By having interrupts mostly on both pistols, a balance can be easier to achieve. This is why I don’t like how much CC I see on your utilities with a mainhand pistol.

What I meant by hybrid is that it can happen but I don’t necessarily want that to be the appex. Like I don’t want a mainhand interrupt balanced around mistrust to the point that it sucks without it. That’s why I think no clones on the pistol is the way to go. It forces a choice of DE for clone fodder or mistrust. Even HM for more interrupts on MoD to fuel more pistol shots(not just interrupts but the burst pistol attacks as well) if needed.

Something can be a “chrono’s thing” but that stuff bleeds over. A single skill on the same base class causing slow isn’t taking away the identity of the chrono.

For physical utilities and PvP balance, yes it may be stronger than any other trait from other classes but is it OP for mesmer? The weapons and class mechanics have zero condi clear. Portal and blink are still 2 very strong utility slots. So how many physical utilities would you be willing to bring to proc that elite GM trait (Other two ones aren’t GM traits.)

To actually give examples to how I would prefer things.
General theme with a P/P mesmer is that duelist’s discipline is able to snowball interrupts. While it could be somewhat condi based weapon with DD and mistrust, it’ll be mostly focused on power. So Dom/Chaos for harder hitting interrupts but if you want consistent interrupts dueling can almost be considered mandatory with this line. Inspiration for some of this is a mix of gun kata, slow mo bullet hell, cover shooters. DD inherently means that this elite spec should be limited in interrupts with utilities. While it will be interrupt spam heavy, reflects and stability will be easy counters as most interrupts will be projectiles. P/F or P/Sw could still be used to recharge main hand pistol or torch for the invis.

F4: Distortion —> Illusionary Cover: 40 (34) second CD.
Create a ward (prevents movement like ring of warding) around the mesmer’s position that also negates projectiles. MoF will make this reflect instead. No longer makes the mesmer invulnerability. Lasts for 2 seconds per illusion shattered. The mesmer can move around this point and allies can also enter this point. While not inherently an interrupt, people that continuously run into the ward while swinging a weapon will feel pain from interrupt traits. Can be used to trap enemies inside it. Animation could look similar to the engineer ward but purple!

F3: Diversion —> Bullet Time: 20 (17) second CD.
Instead of daze, slow target for 1 seconds. MoF will make this AoE slow. As I mentioned earlier, trying to focus most CC on the P/P setup. With F4 having some CC as well, slow seems appropriate for an elite spec that is focused on interrupting. Also just “cool factor” of slow mo enemies in gun fights. Greatly reduced CD as it’s no longer a daze.

F2 and F1 could be kept similar in their ability to do condition or power damage. However, I would prefer a pulsing AOE to be created where the illusions shatter. Total damage if all 4 ticks of the created aoe should be more than base mesmer shatter. HOWEVER, it’s not as bursty. This is ESSENTIAL when giving the mesmer a main hand power weapon with oopmh to it. This could also combo with F4 to keep enemies trapped inside the pulsing aoe. Would not feel OP 1 hit KO in PvP and add some zone control while helping PvE mesmer DPS. CI for immob on interrupt to try and hold enemies inside them. MoF would work the same with each pulse of the AoE. 10% crit on F1 or cripple on each pulse of F2. Each pulse would cause confusion from Illusionary Retribution.

Pistol #1: Heavy hitting basic ranged projectile.
Pistol #2: I like the idea of a line interrupt. Should not be able to recharge itself with DD (same as magic bullet). Needs to be quick to activate, low damage as traits will push out the DPS. 6 second CD should be a good spot for
Pistol #3: Because I’m a fan of DMC, death’s blossom but with GUNS!
https://youtu.be/RK_pH9ojkjA?t=3m10s
This needs to be a very heavy damage skill but a fairly long CD (20-30 seconds) while interrupts will bring it down.
Pistol 4-5 stay the same.

No clones on the pistol! I did this on purpose because GM traits and Dueling choice of DE or mistrust. Pistol clones would just use #1. I won’t come up with a full list of traits but just do 3 GM ideas as these are supposed to be the “game changers” to pick from. I’m running out of steam on ideas right now but utilities should also fit an existing category. Physical utilities+gun kata seems an obvious choice to me. Would also allow for a new rune set that would affect warrior, thief and mesmer (#6 gain resistance on using a physical utility). As it’s still the mesmer, some magic could be tossed into these utilities. Channel block (an actual channel not a single hit), roll over skill = teleport behind/dash through a foe and do some damage.

GM#1: Spontaneous interrupt: Interrupting a foe summons a clone on the foe. This is straight from the Harlequin thread.
GM#2: Equilibrium: Physical utilities grant stability for 3 seconds and clear 2 conditions reduce thier CD by 20%.
GM#3: Disabled damage- Damage is increased when attacking a foe that is dazed, knocked down, launched, or stunned. Damage Increase: 20%. FURTHERMORE, do a small amount of dmg on CC. Not as much as halting strike but enough to add a bit more kicks to CCs.

Curo.2483:

+1 just for the main-hand pistol. However I’d like to see some kind of “shatter overload”, rather than a new F5.

This. Also overkill cc on too many skills and I don’t like the traits too much. The main hand pistol also brings up another point you didn’t address: duelist discipline. Interrupts reduce cd of pistol skills. Last time I check, magic bullet could not reduce its own cd. A main hand pistol with a line mini daze (I don’t like knock back on a bullet) with magic bullet offhand would be able to constantly recharge each other. I love the idea but this has to be on an elite spec with no other cc.

This then feeds into mistrust and the confusion on cc trait you have and a how pistol main hand would inherently balanced as a condi weapon with bleed on hit not critical from DD. I want a power main hand. Not another scepter hybrid mess.

It still procs.

9 ppl equip 1 toughness trinket. Healer/tank in one with magi gear with no toughness. Or zerker daredevil evade and life steal tank. It barley changes anything to have the boss go for the lowest toughness person.

As Kodama mentions, they are balanced around insta cast discharges but having a channeled build up. I kind of prefer the flavor they have now. Mantras just need to synergize better. Having 4 on your bar is way too clunky and the traits should make it the opposite. I would much rather have something like:

Harmonious Mantra:
For each mantra you have on your bar, gain 1 more charge when you charge a mantra. So a single mantra = 3 (same as now). 2 mantras = 4 charges. 3 mantras= 5 charges. 4 mantra = 6 charges.
OR
For each mantra you have on your bar, mantra charge time is reduced by .5 seconds. 4 mantras = .75 charge time. One mantra 2.25 seconds.

CDs can be adjusted a bit between discharges but from a PvP side, no portal/blink means these builds would be held in check while creating an alternative build that could actually go full mantra or just one.

Restorative mantras just needs to be on discharge, not charge. Healing reduced of course.

I thought what I said was pretty straightforward but guess not. When I said “they don’t get the same grace range increase,” I meant they don’t have the same range increase.
Doesn’t mean that GS doesn’t get one at all. They just have different ones. Even melee attacks have the increase.

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

The thing is, I, and a few other people, would be fine with a 50% cut with alacrity IF they rebalanced everything around that.
And took a kittening hammer to the whole slew of mesmer skills and traits that are never used.

I honestly would have been ok with the 50% cut if they just didn’t toss in all those extra nerfs. The well of precog and that alacrity change would have been the “shave” needed to balance bunker chrono. There were still FIVE more nerfs to bunker chrono that went into the patch.

I think what is more disturbing is that this IS the balance for all game modes but coming from disjointed Devs on different teams. PvE raid dev says nerf alacrity. Ok it happens. No one knows what to do with Precog because it messed with both raid mechanics and point capture mechanics → end result. Several different devs think about how to nerf bunker chrono… none of them think about how all 7 shaves, which to be fair, most were, would affect the class as a whole.

It’s not the feature of “arrows falling.” It’s a server side/lag thing. They give about a 15% bonus to the ranged projectiles. Positioning server mumbo jumbo (I don’t remember exact explanation). With both the shooter and shootee of projectiles moving, having arrows instantly disappear at 1200 range was causing a lot of unnecessary accuracy problems and they gave the extra bonus range. Since the GS is a “laser” it doesn’t have flight time and therefore doesn’t get the same “grace” range increase.

Overall, clearly a lot of love put into this, amazing. I am really loving the spontaneous interrupt and sum of all fears as good trait ideas in general for the mesmer or elite spec.

“Major/general” pet peeve: I would prefer future mesmer elite specs to reduce the dependence of mesmers on illusions. I would also like to see new F1-F4 instead of just adding F5. These potentially feed on each other as well since the current F1-F4 always destroy phantasms. Almost all the utilities you propose are phantasm or buff phantasms which makes this build super hit or miss in PvE vs PvP and would a giant pain to balance.

There is clearly a lot of inspiration taken from gw1 mesmer skills. However, some like illusion of haste aren’t transferring over. Old IoH: Remove cripple, swiftness for X seconds, crippled again when swiftness ends. Proposed IoH: Always fast, remove all movement comparing conditions. If we want to go with “deception” idea for mesmer, this feels more like trick your enemy into thinking you are weak then turning that weakness into a strength.

Deceptions:
Illusion of Vulnerability / Calculated risk: Inflict 20 stacks of vulnerability on self, 50% chance to evade attacks for X seconds.
Illusion of weakness: Inflict weakness on self, phantasms do 40% more damage for X seconds.
Illusion of Life: (stepping on engi’s toes but it was a gw1 mesmer skill) Lose X amount of health (this can’t kill you) if you take damage that would be lethal, heal for a huge amount.
Illusion of forfeit: Destroy (not shatter) all illusions, gain 30% personal damage buff for each phantasm destroyed for X seconds.
Blackout: Remove all boons and stun/daze your target 5 seconds but daze yourself for 5 seconds (maybe even removal all conditions AND boons on the mesmer too).

Whether it’s a new F1-F4 or a new F5, or a trait, something that can convert conditions on the mesmer into boons with a decent CD. So weakness would become might and vulnerability would become protection. Has to have a decent CD to not spam.

Herald
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shared_Empowerment
5 stacks of might when only using the fury facet. Drop sigil of air for strength and they can maintain 11-14 with just the passive trait.

Condi necro is a major thing now. BiP is part of their rotation and is 8 stacks of might for 8 seconds every 20 seconds. Doesn’t seem like that much BUT necros work best in pairs or more for epidemic chain combos. Add a herald in the mix since those are still a thing and you get. 2 necros = 16 stacks of might every 20 seconds that last 12 seconds or another ~10 stacks maintained from just the necro. Tempests: Overload fire 10 pulses of 18 (with herald) seconds of might. Necros and tempest stuff I mentioned? It gets even BETTER with alacrity since both of those classes spam those skills as part of their DPS rotation.

But wait, there’s more! Since mesmers do “ZERO” damage anyways, why doesn’t the chrono bring sigil of strength. With 100% boon duration, fried golden dumplings are 10 seconds of might with no ICD. Sigil of strength is 20 seconds of might per proc (1 sec ICD). And if I really wanted to go all out, boon duration gear instead of sigil of concentration. Therefore, I go sigil of battle too for another 8 stacks maintained by the mesmer (battle would be 40 seconds of 2 might on weapon swap). The inspiration chrono brings double SoI… and oh wait, that also doubles all the might that heralds, necros and tempests give to the chrono.

Compare “unique” buffs, not generic ones like might or fury. (Quickness is pretty close to unique for mesmer for party support, especially when guard is the only other option). So quickness and alacrity vs banners and empower allies.

TLDR:
Dungeons used to be eles blasting might and when PS came out, it was called useless. Took the meta too long to shift to PSEA. Builds and skills have changed but just like people clung to ele blasting might, so too are people clinging to the idea that only warriors can give Might. Also check on Xyo’s build on healing/tank chrono that still provides alacrity/quickness. Can a warrior do that? Might is not just a PSEA warrior’s domain. The real comparison you need to make is ranger buffs to chrono buffs because ranger is actually the most unique buffs that rival chronos.

Protection and regen with proper buffs and 2k healing power will be sufficient to keep a competent group up for a raid. Burst healing isn’t inherently a problem as in good raid group: a druid with glyphs is able to keep up a good group. Avatar#4 and 3/5 is just for burst of gotl or cc. If he’s making the build work, it’s sufficient healing for group. I doubt it’s efficiency for most groups though.

I guess what I was really asking is a question about how druids go about rotations. Just like how some chronos are now going in a separate group to buff 9 other people. Is that a valid strategy for druids? A cleric druid that both tanks and heals and camps astral for as long as possible can maintain 5 stacks of gotl on 10 people for quite some time. I’m going to test this tonight at Gorsaval.

I don’t think it’s a matter of making Druid obsolete but mutually exclusive: which is better?
A tank/healer druid + zerker chrono
A tank/healer chrono + viper/zerker druid
A tank/healer druid + no chrono
A tank/healer chrono + no druid

If you can keep up Gotl on 10 ppl, 15% to power and condi dmg is huge.
Frost spirit pulses 6 seconds every 3 seconds so that’s 7% on (theoretically 10 but let’s call it)7 people. Similar with fire spirit. Spotter is 9 seconds every 3 seconds. These buffs rival quickness/alacrity.

Carighan.6758:

Darknicrofia.2604:

what the hell is the point of blocks if everything in the entire game becomes unblockable?

Well, it’s an arms-race issue. They’re giving out blocks and invulnerabilities like candy.

Consequently, we need more and more abilities which can ignore them.

The correct solution is ofc to restrict access to either, and ideally use it as a class theme:

• One class (and only one!) has access to a lot of blocks and invulnerabilities. Conceptually I’d see this on the Warrior, but whatever, doesn’t matter. A second class has access to a 1-2 duration-based block abilities. Everyone else has only a single-hit block, and only on one weapon, if even that.
• Likewise, only one class is able to pierce vulnerabilities frequently, ideally via a debuff (so the target can react). A second class can pierce in limited quantities, probably as a secondary effect on specific attacks, all on one weapon (easy to identify). That’s it.

We have a lot of elements in GW2’s combat which could be used really well to differentiate the classes, yet the constant arms-race coupled with the “me too, me too, me too!”-approach of many PvP players and the devs genuinely listening to players (IMO always a bad thing in MMORPGs, players know what they dislike but not what they want) leads to classes which are washed out and effects which are all over the place.

The idea of one class and only one class having blocks is bad. It’s like back in gw1 when rangers had evades and warriors had blocks. Some skills were unblockable and some undodgeable. The idea of needing different skills to counter 2 different classes was a nightmare when you have such a small skill bar. Anet decided to normalize everything with good reason here.

Have they really been giving out blocks like candy though? As far as all the base classes go, I don’t think any new blocks have been added throughout the entire game. New specs are supposed to introduce new play styles. More blocks is not a problem. The lack of good counters is. Adding more unblockable stuff also means adding more non reflectable stuff which is just a pain to remember what is what.

Look at fighting games with a pretty simple rock, paper, scissors kind of format. Block stops a punch. Grab stops a block. Punch stops a grab. Importantly, the punch and grab look very different. Having unblockable punches is"messy."

I like the beta Well of Precog (BRING IT BACK instead of aegis) and the new Basi Venom. These are very specific anti-block skills with decently long CDs but powerful effects and seem like decent “grabs.” You don’t spam them randomly vs someone that has blocks. You use the skill to make the next attack unblockable. Importantly, it lets your enemy know that you are using a specific ability which alters their defenses allowing for counterplay. Having interrupts be unblockable wouldn’t have fun counterplay from a “block class” as it would just negate their mechanics. It would be like mesmers being countered by thieves all the time due to class mechanic.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable
I think the bigger issue is that it’s not easy to learn what is or isn’t unblockable without just memorizing that list. Traps and walls are easy categories to remember. I think the rest of these abilities that are unblockable actually need better tells. Like instead of a red AOE, they can be orange/yellow AOEs. And players that have the unblockable attack buffs glow orange/yellow. Hopefully new elite specs will continue to give walls or traps to more classes and it will become common knowledge of what type of skill counters blocks.

Xyonon.3987:

Fay.2357:

Xyonon.3987:

If you are chronotank and you go commander (lose offensive stats), you might aswell be the healer too. I’m really no fan of commander stats, they seem subobtimal in the end, when you really know what you’re doing. I mean you can tank with 1005 toughness (or 1036 with leadership) already.

The…healer? No way you can heal, tank, and chronobuff at the same time.

>:3 Oh boy sure I can gonna upload a vid once I’m not terrible at it anymore xP But yea it works. You have alacrity with WoR and 3x iAvenger, you have quickness with TW, WoA, ToT and SoI via traits. The heal comes from MoP, regen and WoE.

pm me ingame if you want the build greez!

I would like to see this build. I’ve been trying to build a tank, healer and buffer in one if possible. The Minstrels gear + this food actually got me thinking about this:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Plate_of_Mussels_Gnashblade
Wasn’t sure if I wanted to pull this off on my chrono or my ranger. I’ve been contemplating using minstrel myself but I’m too poor to waste resources on a crap shoot.

With chaos (6 boons) and bountiful stones, that food, rune of the monk, sigil = 91% boon duration. A few pieces of Minstrel and the rest cleric/zealot for 100% boon duration. (Or drop the bountiful stone for the healing crystal and bring more minstrel) Protection, chaos trait, food for 33%, 9%, 10% damage reduction. Chaos, Inspiration, Chrono. 5/4/1 split without a herald to hog quickness. It does seem like a hefty loss in quickness uptime without double SoI and rune of chrono though. Losing the 10% healing bonus on food and runes would make healing much weaker so it seems like you’re stretching yourself too thin. (Side note: have you tried adding Sigil of agility with chrono builds? I was thinking 2 seconds of quickness on swap would help a bit with quickness uptime -> SoI)

My main concern with this general concept are two fold:
1) Is it really efficient at burst healing well? Like a lot of my guildies are not the best players and some need much stronger burst healing than others. The 0.8 scaling is a nice buff for Mantra heals but not sure it’s enough for practical use. This is the main thing holding me back.
2) Wouldn’t it be better to try this on a ranger? Like chrono buffs are still strong and worth it but I think the chrono is better off going full zerker still. Druid on the other hand does no damage in celestial avatar (besides pets but pets don’t care about gear). Have druid by itself so that it gets regen on 10 people + the pet. 16.5% astral force per second = camp CA for 15% buff on 10 people. Doing no personal damage anyways so why not be the healer/tank?

Trying to get my guild to swap to a 7/2/1 split with chrono/herald in group 2 and Druid tank and healer in group 3. Otherwise 5/4/1 split for the chrono tank/healer. Those dungeon nerfs =(. Too poor to buy it all.

When each player in a raid enters combat, their boon prioritization will be locked in based on the composition of the subgroup they are currently in. That prioritization will not change until the player has left combat, even if their subgroup composition changes while they are in combat.

Well… that’s another big middle finger to mesmers

Edit:
Actually it can still work if a lone mesmer is in subgroup #3 and just shares quickness/alacrity with everyone at random. Just cant do the SoI on swap.

“Scorched Earth: Enemies are now able to be struck by this skill only once every 0.5 seconds.”
A major part of burnzerker burning has been HALVED. Furthermore, part of that required a chrono buffing them fulling with alacrity. So why compare the old meta to a new build when the old one has been nerfed like crazy. Sword and longbow power dps isn’t that great either.

Let’s also pick a more reasonable number for the tempest DPS: 18k-20k TOTAL DPS with alacrity/quickness.
https://youtu.be/UqKc1_CyFH4?t=7m48s

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQJArKnsICNohVoBUrhlcDC9HLZGlBAzE8aA-TBSAQBRUlHrpOQA1DgNlfCc/hLpEEAnAgo9AAIFwiKrA-e
Let’s assume 4 boons for 12% condi duration which means 100% bleed/confusion and 80% for other. With double banner, spotter, might = 3031 condi damage. Yes, less than what you posted. This build also has a 60% crit chance. Average of 44 bleed stacks with rune of berserker, grace of the land and vulnerability: ~14k DPS from just duelist bleeds
Using CI on CD and let’s go with a boss attack every 5 seconds: ~1.8k sustained
I’m going to put the new auto attack in melee range and buff at 3 seconds per auto chain so filler when not using CI is 1.7k DPS for a non-moving target. So 17.5k CONDI DPS with no alacrity or quickness. Do VG and Gorsy move? Yes. Do they attack more than once every 5 seconds? Usually. Did I count projectile finishers for more condi? No. Is this build optimal? No. More vipers/boons could be added and sigils could be changed to geomancy/earth for more bleed stacks. So it could easily go higher than 17.5k condi dmg. I would put 20k as reasonably achieved. As for power damage, we still have 3 duelists with 3k power, 60% crit chance and ~160% crit damage. This will out damage the current state of burnzerker and the condi damage alone does more than an condi ele’s total damage.

Given the ~30% buff to all melee thief auto attacks, I’m not even sure they want to use initiative anymore for the DPS rotation. It might literally be just auto attack. Either way, alacrity doesn’t matter for them. Which means 4 DD+1 chrono needs the chrono to only keep up decent quickness. Drop Chaos for Chrono. Bring SoI, Midnight, well of action, TW and a shield when 3 duelists are up. It won’t be perma but it won’t hurt a thief rotation.

Just realized I forgot to include the 150 condi dmg from compounding power so it would be ~3181.

PvP mesmer got nuked. I will not deny that. Honestly expected more buffs like warrior changes with a lot of CD reduction across the board for chrono after alacrity nerf and it’s BS that it didn’t happen. Need to check if PH got fixed with shield phantasms too but for PvE…

Fay.2357:

Some math:

100% condition duration. Phantasmal haste. 3 duelists. 50% crit chance. Duelist’s discipline.

Attack cycle is once every 6.6 seconds. Each salvo will stack 4 bleeds for 10 seconds and 4 bleeds for 12 seconds. Maximum bleeds per duelist will vary between 16 and 12. Maximum total bleed stacks will be between 36 and 48.

With 3500 (lol) condition damage and 25 vuln on target, 48 bleeds will tick for about 14k dps. In other words, condie Mesmer is still garbage.

And with Vipers (or sinister/rampager) gear, how much power damage are those duelists also doing? 20% chance on 24 projectiles every 6.6 seconds for ~1.6 sec burns. Then add ~1k from just scepter 3 confusion assuming NO confusion procs and a bit of torment from auto attack. Add grace of the land and rune of the berserker in there for 15% and 5% buff to condi dmg (the power won’t affect phantasms). It’s actually competitive DPS. That just takes Dueling/Illusions to work so toss in chrono and drop wells/TW. Swap to shield 5 when 3 duelists are up. Not as much alacrity/quickness uptime as before but definitely competitive DPS+buffs, especially given the nerf to burnzerker. Or bring chaos/signets for more condi duration and damage. Sinister/rampager+spotter and banner of D for much better crit chance.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

3) 2 subgroups of 5/4. Chrono swaps between subgroups and uses SoI on the second group while the main TW combo is used on the first subgroup. Since the duration of quickness that is being shared with SoI is a decent length, the chrono doesn’t have to shift around like crazy every 6 seconds like a warrior or druid would have to for PSEA / frost-spotter buffs. You don’t ever see a PSEA or druid doing this because their buffs aren’t worth the hassle. It IS for chronos though.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/41l4a6/vc_sabetha_459_401_left_on_timer/
A chrono swapping back between two groups since some people still don’t get that there can be multiple ways for a chrono to share boons between 10 people.

Xyonon.3987:

At the moment 1 Mes can sustain 100% quickness and 70% alacrity for both subgroups all by himself or something like one sub 100% alacrity, the other almost 0%.

I think some of us were a bit too rushed to create a meta build and stop thinking about it. I myself was too abrupt at saying commander’s wasn’t worth it and Rune of chrono+Sigil concentration+herald was the way to go. Both of them can be used at the same time though which removes the need for a herald in the same subgroup as the mesmer which means the herald isn’t being overbuffed. Furthermore, shield phantasms were considered a DPS loss and written off rather quickly. However, 3 shield phantasms is still 6/7.2 seconds of alacrity on 5 people for 83% uptime. If PH was working with them, it would be 100% uptime from just phantasms on 5 people or 44% uptime on 9 other people if subgroups are set up properly. Since that’s before wells & chronophantasma come into play more can be achieved. Earlier in this discussion I also mentioned that a chrono would always be taking 1 hit on the wells. However, if shield phantasms are enough for 150% alacrity uptime on the chrono, then the chrono doesn’t need to stand in it’s own wells. With the current 40%CDR, that’s 75.5% uptime on 5 other people or 42% uptime on 9 other people from wells. So theoretically, if PH wasn’t bugged for Deja Vu, could keep 86% uptime on 9 people at 100% on itself. That is with a build that uses SoI instead of another well. Dropping SoI for another well would put it at ~100%. So all it would have taken was a bug fix. I’m not saying Karl’s statement was perfect but it was a lot closer to reality than people are realizing.

If you really want to talk about being short sighted, ok.

This isn’t Xenon specifically, but a lot of people are calling it a 50% nerf like it’s such a huge deal and chopping a number in half. The end result is less than 50% nerf. Focusing on the initial number change rather than the end result is short sighted.

But let’s take even one more step back.

Chrono wasn’t designed as a sidegrade like Reaper or DH. It was an upgrade with an addition of F5. If reaper shroud 1 is too OP, they can nerf it while keeping Death shroud #1 as is or even buffing it. CS-F5 should have been the new F4, not another button to press. They can’t nerf chrono F1 without nerfing mesmer F1. It’s too late for a full redesign that chrono really needs. Even I’m reality checked enough to realize this. However, this means balance wise, anything a base mesmer can do, chrono can do better because alacrity/F5 is such a huge crutch. You have admitted this yourself: “Kick all base mesmers on sight.” If there is any hope for base mesmer and also any future elite specs for mesmer that won’t screw with balance all over, base mesmer needs major buffs. This means alacrity/chrono has to get nerfed.

In otherwise, everyone whining about a 50% nerf rather than being constructive and pushing for base mesmer buffs that won’t impact chrono too much is being short sighted. The reason I am pushing really hard for the % damage modifiers to affect phantasms is because chronos have nobuffs or modifiers (PF/PH) to phantasms (Chronophantasma is meh compared to the other lines.) This is the only way I can think of that would give base mesmer a DPS phantasm role while being mutually exclusive with a well spamming chrono for team buffs.

Xenon.4537:

Stand The Wall.6987:

why do ppl keep on saying 50%, isnt it 33%?

33 = 50% of 66

Yes which results in 40%CDR to 25% which is 37.5% reduction.
That’s only alacrity though and mesmers still have quickness. So it’s less than 37.5% nerf to a chrono’s ability to buff their allies.

aelfwe.4239:

Yeah we have 80% uptime of quickness on 10 people and 100% quickness uptime on 5 men party.
And yeah we have 70% of alacrity uptime on 10 men party and 100% quickness uptime on 5
But not because:

When all other team buffs only affect 5 people at a time (banner, spotter, EA, AP, Frost spirit, glyph of empowerment etc etc) why should chrono get to give 10 people 80% uptime on quickness? Does that on some level not seem absurd to you? It might not because mesmer damage is so low. And I do want that base damage to go up but the quickness alone is still kind of crazy when you think JUST ONE chrono hits TEN people when all of those other buffs we talk about hit 5.

The 80% of quickness uptime in a raid setup doesnt come out because quickness (and alacrity) skills affect more players while other buffs affect just 5 as you are claming here

What I am claiming is that ONE chrono hits TEN people! Not that one skill (besides ToT) hit’s 10 people.

Anyway the reason of the 70%/80% raid alacrity/quickness uptime it’s because you can share it to different people standing in your own party (and you can do the same with all other boon or buff of this game) or you can take it as the average raid quickness uptime you bring to raid standing in party (so granting 100% to 5 guys) while other 5 ones take just piece of them when your party mate are out of range or moving (it’s a raid).

There are actually several ways to set up the groups:

1) 2 subgroups of 5 each. Chrono in one. Basically like a 5 man content with 100% on one group and then a bonus ~30% from ToT on the other. Average uptime is (100% x 5 + 30% x 5) / 10 = 65%. Not the 80% you are using.

2) 2 subgroups of 5 with a chrono in each one: Basically 100% overkill on quickness for both. Also not the situation you are talking about. Still important to think that each chrono per subgroup is buffing their team by ~60% and that’s still really strong.

3) 2 subgroups of 5/4. Chrono swaps between subgroups and uses SoI on the second group while the main TW combo is used on the first subgroup. Since the duration of quickness that is being shared with SoI is a decent length, the chrono doesn’t have to shift around like crazy every 6 seconds like a warrior or druid would have to for PSEA / frost-spotter buffs. You don’t ever see a PSEA or druid doing this because their buffs aren’t worth the hassle. It IS for chronos though.

4) 2 subgroups of 4/5 (or 4/4) and a chrono alone (or with a herald for +50%). All the wells, TW, SoI are randomly given to 4 others (or always to herald + 3 random everyone else).

It is situations 3 and 4 were the 80% quickness comes from. It requires SoI from inspiration and rune of chrono. The quickness could use some help. That’s why I mentioned
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Squall
It increases all boons on 5 allies by +2 seconds. This ups the quickness in general but also increases the SoI share from the mesmer. Since fresh air is getting a nice buff and D/WH is already somewhat meta for ele, this will be easy to use and shore up the extra 20% of quickness. So in theory, with a bit of help from a “new/old” ele build that will be in the meta, one Chrono can provide 100% quickness to 9 other people.

If we are going with situation where a chrono decides to be the tank and wear commander gear to get 100% boon duration without a herald, then a chrono with 3 shield phantasms up (IF PH is fixed) means 6 seconds of alacrity every 6 seconds to 4 of 9 targets (mesmer always gets it). This means 44% uptime on alacrity from one mesmer on 9 other people with just shield phantasms. With well of recall giving 7 seconds of alacrity, on a 40 sec base CD and CS having a 76 sec CD, we can consider this 21 second of alacrity every 82 seconds. With the new 25% CDR, that’s 21 every 61.2 seconds = 34% on 4 other people. WoC is 5 casts every 82 seconds. With alacrity, it’s 5 casts (10 seconds) every 61.2 seconds for another 16% uptime on 4 people. Well of eternity is another 6 every 61.2 seconds = 10%. So 44% uptime on 9 other people and 60% on 4 others. Averages out to ~ 27% more+44% for a total of 71% uptime on alacrity for 9 other people and overkill 100% on the chrono.

It’s hard to stay civil when you realize that the guy you are arguin for alacrity\quick think that alacrity and quick are so OP because they hit more target compared to other boons as spotter that hit just 5 target.

It’s hard to stay civil when you realize that the guy you are arguin is making you lost time because has no idea of what you are speaking off.

I don’t think they hit more targets. I know how the different subgrouping works though in a raid environment. It is equally frustrating for me to discuss things with you. I have been saying I think you are wrong. You have been personally jabbing at me. There is a difference.

No, what’s wrong with you? Can you not stay civil?

You yourself have been saying ~80% uptime of quickness on 10 people compared to 100% uptime on 5. Did you suddenly forget saying that? Or have you not played mesmer and don’t know how it works? Because ToT is only ~30% uptime on 10 if you hit them all. Some have a separate subgroup and have it randomly share. (or with a herald and less boon duration). Others are constantly swapping subgroups to SoI in different ones.

Do you see any warriors or rangers swapping subgroups or in their own subgroup to get more buffs out? Keep in mind this actually would work. Spotter/EA have a 9 second duration and pulse every 3 seconds. People just deemed it not worth their time. Yet it is for a chrono.

So again, 60% buff to 4 other people or 30% (your number) to 9 other people. Compared to the 19-27% a PSEA or druid provide to 5 people.

And with this nerf to alacrity, the uptime might not even go down that much still. Deciding to have 1 mesmer after the nerf means a mesmer keeps 3 shield phantasms up (assuming PH is fixed) and that’s already 100% uptime to 5 people. Mesmer keeps swapping back and forth for quickness uptime and that won’t change. Ask a fresh air (getting buffed anyway) to use warhorn earth 4 every once in a while to give a +2 duration to quickness and it’ll reach 100% quickness uptime while maintaining high alacrity (still using wells) uptime for 10 people. It won’t matter if the mesmer does no damage.

Ok so I say 59%, Weth says 60%, and Miku says 70%. People are agreeing with numbers! Progress! Burnzerker is pretty easy to keep their rotation going perfectly. Engi is a definitely hard mode. Necro rotation is really easy. Same with herald. These were made with the assumption of 100% alacrity and quickness uptime! So now that we are on the same page, we can start talking about expectations and if 60% a good number give those assumptions or does it need to be tweaked

Fay.2357:

Now here’s the fun part. Chrono adds 40% dps to a raid group and apparently it’s unbalanced enough to gut. You know what else adds 40% dps to a raid group? Replacing all your dps with burnzerkers.

You’re better than this. If you are refering to:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Raids-Burnzerkers-Meta-40-higher-damage/first
It states that burnzerkers do 40% more damage than other condi builds, not 40% team damage increase. You also just admitted that the 60% would affect burnzerkers as well AND that their rotations are pretty easy. So why have 5 burnzerkers with 40% more condi damage than other condi builds when you can have 4 burnzerkers and 1 chrono buffing them 60%? Like:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3xubpi/vc_vale_guardian_312_and_gorseval_322_speedkills/
So if most condi builds do 1 damage and burnzerkers do 1.4 then
A subsquad of 5 burnz would be doing 1.4*5 = 7
A subsquad of 4 +chrono = 1.4*1.6*4 = 8.96 + whatever you consider the chrono (we’ve been using 0.5 so 9.46. This is inherently a problem, because whatever is flavor of the month, chrono will make it just that much more OP (I’m not multiplying that 0.5 by 1.6 because I consider that 0.5 with those buffs.)

When all other team buffs only affect 5 people at a time (banner, spotter, EA, AP, Frost spirit, glyph of empowerment etc etc) why should chrono get to give 10 people 80% uptime on quickness? Does that on some level not seem absurd to you? It might not because mesmer damage is so low. And I do want that base damage to go up but the quickness alone is still kind of crazy when you think JUST ONE chrono hits TEN people when all of those other buffs we talk about hit 5.

So what we really need to look at is how much those other classes buff their team and if they are comparable:
So assuming a Berserker gear and 25 might/fury (these boons are so common and mesmer can even amplify it with SoI) that I’m assuming this as “baseline.”
Double banner +EA is a ~19% increase over that baseline.
Spotter, Glyph of empowerment, Frost spirit and GotL adds ~27% assuming an average of 10% increase from GotL. This of course is on a healer druid so it’s not like the druid itself is doing that much damage. GotL is weird in the sense that heals aren’t based on subgroup and it can affect everyone but it also means that it’s less stacks on 10 people.

So a relatively low DPS warrior buffing their 5 people by 19% or a healer buffing their 5 people’s damage by 27% OR a chrono that buffs 5 people by 60% or 10 people ~30% or so. You realize that’s freaking OP. It’s not “that OP” since mesmer damage is kitten poor but it’s too strong. The only way that mesmers get a buff to damage is if they buff their team less because there is no way we can keep that 60% team buffing while asking for a damage buff to be equal to everyone else. And with the nerf to alacrity, I’m still estimating it to be a ~40% buff to the ele.

Stop whining about the nerf, start asking for buffs to base mesmer!
#Phantasms are now affected by all damage mods of the mesmer!

Thanks for the input. Those numbers don’t include quickness though?
So 1.4*3*66% is 2.8 seconds. That’s still enough for 3 fireballs between lava fonts if it’s perma quickness/alacrity?

Ok Miku, you’ve inspired me to take a closer look:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1g0abBAxTfVHFzbPemZDXInIbezsgma2FXk1Fz94snSs/edit?usp=sharing

Google doc of a staff ele that just spams 2/5/F1 on CD. It’s not perfect still but much closer than anything that has been shown in this topic so far.

In order to look at number of casts in a certain time, we need to add the CD as well as the cast time of the skill since the skill doesn’t go on CD until it’s done casting. This is F3-K6. L-Q looks at total number of casts of skills with CDs and fireball filler.

If you think you have better cast times that what I have entered, feel free to make a copy and change anything in orange. Also change I9 for number of meteors that hit (0-24). I picked 12.

(M16-Q16) Overall, quickness alone: 17% more for staff ele. Quickness and -40% alacrity = 59%. Huh… that looks pretty close to Karl’s number. Quickness and -25% alacrity = 39%. Alacrity is still going to be strong.

I also added in D15-D18 for a bit of perspective. Might adds 27% increase to the parties damage. Something like EA and banners? only an extra ~9%. 39% with the nerfed alacrity is still in a good spot. Yes, the base mesmer needs a damage buff, but alacrity is fine.

Molch.2078:

You are arguing semantics, but as you wish:

Skills with a cooldown (and no activation time) have their contribution to the total dps of a rotation, build or class increased by 66% while under the effect of alacrity.

Yup ;D
I’m just in lab waiting on a few incubations and have the time to argue a bit. I do agree overall with what you’re saying.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

As far as applying quickness to everything, it’s easy. 50% attack speed means those rotations are done in 20 seconds instead of 30

So without alacrity, I get (22.5 × 500 + 7.5 X 1000)/30 seconds = 625
With alacrity, I get (17.5 × 500 + 12.5 × 1000)/30 seconds = 708
So without alacrity+quickness, I get (22.5 × 500 + 7.5 X 1000)/20 seconds = 937
With alacrity and quickness, I get (17.5 × 500 + 12.5 × 1000)/20 seconds = 1062
1062/625 = 70% increase.

Woops, dividing by 20 isn’t the right way to go about this because in 20 seconds, that means I get to use less skills with CDs.

7.5 and 12.5 CD skill usage means 4.95 and 8.25 seconds of their use with quickness. That means 25.05 and 21.75 seconds of auto attack that take 0.66 seconds each. It should look something more like this:

So without alacrity, I get (22.5 × 500 + 7.5 X 1000)/30 seconds = 625
With alacrity, I get (17.5 × 500 + 12.5 × 1000)/30 seconds = 708
So without alacrity+quickness, I get (40 × 500 + 7.5 X 1000)/30 seconds = 916
With alacrity and quickness, I get (33 × 500 + 12.5 × 1000)/30 seconds = 966
So just quickness: 916/625 = ~47%
Just alacrity: 708/625= 13%
Both: 966/625 = ~55%

Molch.2078:

66% increased cooldown recharge is, under for alacrity perfect circumstances (dps comes form cooldowns only, without any cast times), a 66% damage increase, NOT a 40% increase. A skill with 1000 dmg and 10s cd deals 1000/10=100 dps without and 1000/(10*0.6) = 166 dps with alacrity.

A 50% reduction in cd would allow you to use the skill twice as often, resulting in a 100% dmg increase. A 40% reduction in cd is, indeed, a 66% dps gain for those skills.

I disagree

This means, 100% uptime on both is something between 50-66%. While Miku Lawrence is right, this is still a good estimate. If you keep both buffs on only two other people, you could do 0 damage and you still would be a dps gain.

I absolutely agree.

I’m just being a stickler while also spelling out some math for other people in this topic. Specifically, when you say DPS of a skill, that isn’t really a thing when it comes to DPS calculations since DPS is the combination of everything over time. Actually looking at even the most recent post in my math, I realize I’m still not fully awake. Let me edit that.

aelfwe.4239:

.

Put down some maths:
0.8x(50)= 40%
0.7x(40)= 28%
so the average dmg addition in raid due to quickness + alacrity is around 34%

REALITY = 34%

KARL = 66% (the double)

And you defend him?

Keep on:

Let’s add in math the skill with both cd and channeling and let’s suppose that they are the 20% of the total skill casted (they are way less than i’m 30% but i’m trying to put on your side), we will have to add to 34%:
0.2×50×40=0.41%

REALITY = 34,4%

KARL = 66% (the double)

Now let’s take into consideration that a chrono to have 100% quickness and alacrity uptime need 3 iavenger (that do 0 dmg) and need to cast wells+tw+soi+mimic etc for like 20sec every 50 sec…

let’s ask ourself how much dmg loss a chrono do compared to zerk war or ele: 50%???

Since there are 10 men in raid you can take an average of base dmg for each one of 10%.

This means chrono makes raid to lose a 5% compared to taking a war

REALITY = 29.4%

KARL = 66% (the double)

Happy? I’m now quoting more of your post.
“0.2×50×40=0.41%”
This is still wrong and then you add it to the wrong number from the start.

Molch, that’s not really how it works. Let’s assume I have no quickness but 100% alacrity.

Let’s also say that 1000 damage skill has a 10 second CD. It now has a 6 second CD with alacrity. DPS over 30 seconds:
Without alacrity, I would get to use it 3 times
With alacrity, I would get to use it 5 times.
For simplicities sake, all skills have 1 second activation time and auto attacks do 500 damage.
So without alacrity, I get (27 × 500 + 3 X 1000)/30 seconds = 550
With alacrity, I get (25 × 500 + 5 × 1000)/30 seconds = 583
That is 6% not a 66% increase in DPS.

But what if the skill that does 1000 damage has a 4 second CD (something more akin to engi or burnzerker F1):
Without alacrity, I would get to use it 7.5 times
With alacrity, I would get to use it 12.5 times.

So without alacrity, I get (22.5 × 500 + 7.5 X 1000)/30 seconds = 625
With alacrity, I get (17.5 × 500 + 12.5 × 1000)/30 seconds = 708
Or a 13% increase

You can go in and change the values of 500 or 1000 or just add more skills in there and it will get more complex but as you can see, the “DPS increase” of one skill is not the same as the DPS increase of the actual build. That’s why Miku was saying that the math is iffy. It’s much more complicated.

As far as applying quickness to everything, it’s easy. 50% attack speed means those rotations are done in 20 seconds instead of 30

So without alacrity, I get (22.5 × 500 + 7.5 X 1000)/30 seconds = 625
With alacrity, I get (17.5 × 500 + 12.5 × 1000)/30 seconds = 708
So without alacrity+quickness, I get (22.5 × 500 + 7.5 X 1000)/20 seconds = 937
With alacrity and quickness, I get (17.5 × 500 + 12.5 × 1000)/20 seconds = 1062
1062/625 = 70% increase.

Just general response to the thread with this. As you can see, I apply quickness to everything but I’m only applying alacrity to skills with CDs. So quickness stacks with alacrity but alacrity doesn’t necessarily stack with quickness.

*Technically, this math is also not true since the CD of skills don’t start until they are done activating

Miku Lawrence.6329:

No idea why you add Damage increase from Quickness and from Alacrity twice.

Knowing the benefits from Quickness and Alacrity is even more complex than just doing what DuckDuckGo said (while his math is closer to truth).

Every rotation will need to be calculated separately and every rotation will benefit differently from, separately, quickness and alacrity.

Basic assumptions like +50% damage from quickness because people hit faster or +66% damage because cooldowns are shorter (please Anet why you do this?) are dumb.

I did say “slightly more real math.” ;D I realize this is much more complicated but then I would have to just start recording all the rotations with and without a chrono and calculate coeffs per sec… and I’m not going to do that. That’s also why I tried picking a few ratios of auto attacks to CD skills to get a general gist of how much both can do. Which of those ratios will depend on which class: engi being more towards CD skills while thief is almost exclusively “auto attack skills” unaffected by alacrity.

@Aelfwe
“Put down some maths:
0.8x(50)= 40%
0.7x(40)= 28%
so the average dmg addition in raid due to quickness + alacrity is around 34%
REALITY = 34%”

Regardless of you saying we do or don’t have the same hypothesis, this is wrong. You don’t average these two together. I did read further but further doesn’t matter if this step is already wrong.

When it comes to your categories, WHY would a thief ever cast signet of malice? The DD rotation is staff skills, dodge occasionally, never use your signets and cast FF on CD if I recall correctly. The vast majority of DPS classes don’t have that many “category C” skills. Maybe one with their #6. And any class isn’t going to cast their heal more often just because they can. Show me the warrior that is spamming Healing Signet because alacrity/quickness “make it so good to spam!?” Whether or not a class uses their category C skills is dependant on the fight and a person with or without both buffs will cast it as needed. If you want to get a bit more closer to the real math though, fine:

Without quickness/alacrity person:
0.8 (A) X 1 + 0.1 (B) X 1 + 0.1 © X 0
That assumes a person does ~10% category C skills that do zero damage.
With quickness/alacrity @ 100% uptime:
0.82 (A) X 1.5 + 0.11 (B) X 1.5 X 1.4+ 0.07 © X 0

Just because a person can spam C skills more often doesn’t mean it will just cause. Assuming a real fight, the same person would have to use their heal skills at roughly the same time. It just takes less time 0.07 instead of 0.1 of the fight. This also means they have an extra 0.03 fraction of the fight for A or B instead. And if the second scenario has a person really needing to spam their heal more often, no alacrity person is dead >_>. So either way, introducing this new category makes alacrity/quickness stronger.

Look at the burnzerker or PSEA warrior rotations. How many category C skills are there? I guess banners if you want to count those but 100% instead of 75% uptime on banners because of alacrity is a huge boost to the team. Look at condi engi or condi necro: Nothing is a category C skill besides healing turret. The necro uses a heal minion that never dies with 95% dmg reduction.

EDIT:
Ok all that bolding got weird when I started using () and B. Was also still sipping coffee and not fully awake. When I said A, B ,C, I meant:
A) Only affected by alacrity
B) Affected by both and damaging
C) affected by both but non damaging
DPS rotations try to minimize or have zero use of C if possible.

“My final math was DPS GAIN = A+B+C
A = Direct dmg addiction from quickness
B = Direct dmg addiction from alacrity
C = Direct dmg addiction from both quickness and alacrity”

That is counting alacrity and quickness twice because you have alacrity in B and C and still add them together. And then A and C is adding quickness twice.

This is happening to me as well and I have no halloween pails. It’s my invis, regular bag and fractal bags.