Guild Wars 2

Last I checked, Thieves have like 4 builds, Necros have like 1.5, Warrs float at around 4 builds …

There are no weapon combinations that produce multiple phantasms. The recharge rate of our Shatters is time prohibitive. The utility phantasms do little dps and are there for specialty usage. Our other weapon skills are geared toward accomplishing particular non-DPS goals. There are no serious direct damage utilities.

Thus, Mesmers cannot create a multi-DPS build.

You should try playing GS and/or Sword more. GS’s Mirror Blade does as much damage as Warlock/Duelist/Swordsman if you trait Elasticity. Blurred Frenzy also does as much damage as those.

The IP shatter power I use does exactly that: a third of the damage output is from phantasms, a third is from shatters, and a third is from other abilities. MB crits for 2.8k x3. Shatter crits for 2.8k x4. Two phantasms crit for 10k. BF for 7k.

Anytime someone claims “2/3s of my damage is iDuelist!” I do a facepalm.

Like I said: it’s a build/playstyle problem if you throw all your eggs into the phantasm basket and then misfire.

IMO, the only time you should legitimately have “all phantasm damage” is when you build defensively around Staff and have to do a lot of defensive kiting using a power build (e.g. Warlock doing a lot of your dps).

(I overlooked that one, and I think thats what you were referring to with HM)

Yeah I meant EM.

On Illusionary Elasticity + Mirror Blade, I thought that was only 4 bounces traited, so it would only be 6 stacks of Vulnerability and 6 stacks of Might? Still a notable amount though.

By default it is “3 bounces after the initial hit”. So no trait = 2 hits on target, 2 buffs on yourself. Elasticity = “4 bounces after the initial hit”. Trait = 3 hits on target, 2 buffs on self. Increases the offense of MB by 50% in a 1v1.

^

This. I did a small happy dance that we didn’t get anything significant nerfed.

Significant:

1. Anything related to GS.
2. LoS on iB in particular.
3. Warden’s Feedback.
4. Feedback in general.
5. Regen on phantasms.
6. IP.
7. Mind Wrack scaling.
8. Rumored Portal nerfing.
9. Blink usability.

I doubt the average player can play a shatter build to any effect worth nerfing in general.

Part of the reason phantasm builds were/are so popular is because of how easy they are to execute.

Note that shatter builds are tangentially affected by the phantasm cooldown nerf.

1. Do you kill anyone with your grenades?

2. iBerserker > grenades. You shoot people on walls. I nail people almost anywhere inside the tower, and anywhere within 1200 range of the walls of a keep.

3. AOE pull. This alone is > almost any other class at sieging. Not only can you pull people off walls, you pull people TO the walls (so they eat your allies’ AOE, instead of simply running away). You know when you potshot someone with grenade / arrowvolley / meteor shower / <insert random AOE that doesn’t actually kill anything>, and the person runs away to heal? Mesmer pulls them back to the wall to die.

4. Feedback. End of story.

5. But wait, there’s more. Time Warp is godmode. Portal is win. Mass Invis is kitten. Veil is even better.

Engis can unload some AOE, same as Eles, Rangers, and to some extent Necros.

The difference is that Mesmers actually make people die. Compound that with some of the most absurd utility in the game via Time Warp and Feedback (and some Portal in those special moments), and there’s no contest.

Staff is horrible for multiple mob tagging.

Of course it is. However, it can tag several mobs for free.

As before, go spec IP and succeed, or do not and fail.

Do or do not, there is no cry.

In conclusion, I understand that we have some “options” for DE mob tagging. The point that I’m making (and that many other frustrated PvE mesmers have made) is that the options are mediocre at best — so stop putting lipstick on the pig!

1. Mesmers are inferior to the “top 3” at Orr DE.

2. Other classes are in the same boat as the Mesmer of being outclassed at Orr DE.

3. There are several key tools for the Mesmer that make them “ok” at Orr DE. Most complainers refuse to use them.

4. IP Shatter is the fastest AOE in the game, tied with traps/mines.

Most readers would infer the following point: you will have to wait for a very long time before a Mesmer will have problems killing a mob when they log on.

Don’t hold your breath. I still kill trash mobs in <4 seconds post-patch.

Umm, Engineers have nothing on a Mesmer for keep sieging in WvW.

Currently I have a 1:5 badge to kill ratio in WvW. I’m curious if actual damage done to individual targets impacts badge accrual.

I wouldn’t be surprised if DE were nerfed at some point and Mind Wrack damage shaved down just slightly, to be honest.

I’m actually impressed that ANet went with the slight cooldown adjustment rather than tweak the actual potency of the phantasms. Good stuff.

You have no backup DPS, you waste a phantasm on a weak foe, you have probably burnt your only real DPS until recharge.

Sounds like a build problem/risk if all your DPS is stacked into 1 button and you blow it.

Pretty sure 15 -> 20 is not “double”. Traited, 9 -> 12s.

Oh no, a 3 sec delay on the second phantasm summon! Class is broken!

Edit: And zero impact on GS or Focus. Zzz.

Sidenote: Can I haz ur stuff?

I don’t see the problem here. Run full glass Berserker PvE gear, whip out Frenzy + GS and BR-instagib someone on the side, then Rush out with Quickness still up. 20k Hundred Blades will hulksmash most players.

Orikx.9671:

It would appear their Oceania has transferred servers also or just quit playing this match because we have been steadily pulling away ever since about noon 1pm EST yesterday.

Oceanic primetime is morning US east coast time. 3am-noon.

Noon and after is EU primetime.

HOD is winning Oceanic, and losing EU/NA times.

So JQ posting all last week HOD was going to see the double team of the century, I guess that did not happen either?

Considering that ET fights more rabidly against us when I see them than than HOD has ever done, I’m 99% sure that the “double team of the century” is mostly propaganda. This is particularly true after some ET folks exploited the Orbs on Friday. JQ instantly went hulk-angry mode and took some severe territory gains across the board in retaliation. Since then, I doubt there’s been much of any direct cooperation between JQ-ET.

That said, pretty sure both JQ and ET want to put some smash on HOD. Hope you’re enjoying that 50 PPT during NA primetime.

If ET somehow managed to pull off second and knock HoD down to third would it be enough points do you think to knock HoD to T2 or do they have enough points to remain in T1 regardless.
Discuss.

HOD’s going to stay T1 for awhile longer. Oceania too stronk. HOD is getting completely carried by SYN/DiE/oceanics at the moment.

So can Staff WOC!

A +0 IP (no illusions out) shatter will not do enough damage to earn loot.

Yes, it will. I crit for 3k with it. I hope that’s enough for loot credit, keeping in mind loot is not 100% on mobs.

SS is a 1200 range that does a teeny bit of damage in its instant hit. It needs all three
hits before it’s enough to mean anything.

I crit for 850 per tick. It also ticks very quickly FWIW.

It’s better than it was but still needs work. VERY small aoe burst radius for locking you in place for 2 seconds.

It locks you in place for 0.5 seconds.

Stop making up fantasy.

1. iBerserker sometimes won’t spawn because the target mob dies before the skill induction is finished.

Bind a hotkey for “Target Nearest” and spam it. You can target mobs before they fade in and hit iB immediately. In almost all cases, spin will go off. There’s only 1 DE I’ve been unable to use iB, and that was because the mobs didn’t “spawn in”, they ran in invulnerable, and I do not camp those long enough to know exactly when they become vulnerable.

3. Shatters require you to have some clones on hand first (same issue with c/d’s and target dying) — yes you can use self-shatter but only for a build that’s 30 points down the mesmer line.

Don’t complain. The tool is there. Use it.

Considering the Power would be 2077 in such a build, thats doable if you also had 10 stacks of Might.
Otherwise without Vulnerability and Might, the build would give around…
~1148 dmg on a 1x Shatter
~2892 dmg on a Crit with a 1x Self Shatter
~876 dmg per Shatter on a 4x Shatter.
~2206 dmg per crit Shatter on a 4x Shatter. (At max, 8824 damage).
Or am I simply missing something that would boost the damage greatly?

1. Try Scholar Runes.
2. Elasticity Mirror Blade prep will give you 9 stacks of Vuln, 6 stacks of Might.
3. Shatter in an IP build will net 1-4 stacks of Might, building per shatter.
4. I’m not sure where you included it in your model, but don’t neglect Mental Torment.
5. You may want to do a quick assessment of general damage scaling between 10 Dom / 30 Dueling, and 30 Dom / 10 Dueling. Were you assuming HM for the 30 Dueling, or was that just for the crit damage multiplier?
6. Also: Compounding Power.

Edit3: If you want to just get the biggest numbers possible, 10/30/0/0/30 with HM is probably the way to go. Kind of a weird build, but shrug.

In PvE using a 20/20/0/0/30 build, I have crit for 2650×4 on Snow Trolls. Don’t recall what buffs I had though. It’s Trolls so I could have had a Warr banner and other minor buffs. The mobs die too fast for major debuffs, so I doubt that was a major factor.

Edit: Hmm. I wonder if Snow Trolls are level 80, and if not, what level the players are in that spot.

Edit2: Sidenote: I do not have max gear. I also may not have had my Scholar runes yet when I got those numbers. I’ll have to go back sometime and respec to IP. I suspect I could hit 12k now.

Sounds like a first-world problem .

I’ll be swingin’ (or not swinging I guess, on a Mesmer) my Mystic Claymore for a long, long time :P.

The Daze and Aegis are insane. Other parts are just bonus.

The chaos armor thing is not really the main point — but I feel it probably weighed into the decision. It’s not so much the Mesmer using phase retreat, as it is the rest of the group/team using blast finishers. Consider that Feedback and Null field already sport pretty solid cooldowns (and use a Util slot). Chaos Storm is like that, but better. Now, it’s more on par. The finisher aspect on TOP of the Aegis/Daze spam — Chaos Storm is really, really powerful.

You could always swap your weapon to Staff and use WOC.

But that would require you to press tilde. Hmm ………………………………………………

in PvE, anything short of a boss dies so fast the phants often don’t have a chance to attack (especially because, again, they are not attacking on summon in some circumenstances). They poof, and your cooldown is wasted. And now, it’s longer than ever. If the phantasms were doing too much damage, why not leave the CD as is and reduce the damage? Simple as that.

From a PvP perspective, it is better to nerf the cooldown rather than the damage, because the primary issue was the ease (or difficulty) of continuously swapping to the iD/iW to drop it.

For PvE, the adjustment is to stop overallocating phantasms to single mobs.

If you are fighting two mobs, do not drop the phantasm on both (unless you really need to).

Also, your example only exists for solo farming trash mobs. In that context, the game is so easy nothing matters.

I agree that it’s powerful, but not as much as you think. If chaos armor is the problem…we have two leap skills, null field, and feedback. Those plus staff 4 mean an impressive CA uptime as it is.

That’s part of the issue. Staff already includes a leap within its toolset to combo on ethereal.

That’s why we have chaos storm as an offensive ability. I don’t argue that weakining the powers may have been necessary. I just think that cooldown changes weren’t the best way to go about it.

Personally, I’d prefer to nerf the frequency of an ability rather than the potency. I like big plays in combat, rather than several little plays. Makes the game way more fun.

As I said, I think the cooldown is a little too long, but I think they made the right type of change.

Also, I’d disagree with you about other classes being in the same boat. Rangers have fantastic aoe farming power. Warriors do as well with the right builds. Necros have more decent aoes than single target spells. Thief has some decent options as well with LDB, shortbow 2, and shortbow 4 (although they are closer to Mesmers in that those last two abilities take time to set up, and mobs can sometimes die before the explosions land)

These are not great options due to cooldown and/or resource constraints. Rangers probably come out slightly ahead of Mesmers, but have to work hard for it, and come out significantly behind the top 3. Necros are “ok” but suffer the same issues. Thieves are bad due to resource limitations preventing spam.

Mesmers are limited, but have some key tools:

IP Mind Wrack is instant, and provides 5-15 targets of tagging. IP Cry also does direct damage, which many players overlook — but it will tag. iBerserker can tag up to 15 targets and gets off pretty quick despite being a phantasm. SS is a 1200 range instant. Mind Stab is really fast. Mesmers have to work for it, but the payoff is not terrible.

Also, this is why GW2 is not a PvE game if the PvE content begins and ends at Orr DEs.

Ignoring the Orr DE tangent,

1. Not all players running through Orr are leveling in blues, greens, and yellows. You could easily be seeing a full exotic berserker Guardian faceplanting mobs.

I drop mobs in seconds using full berserker exotic with a burst build on a Mesmer. Snow Troll? 4 seconds. Most Orr trash? Similar. Skelks? 2 seconds. Depends on crits though.

2. If you’re using a sustained DPS build, don’t expect to kill as quickly. Be sure to use a direct damage / burstier build if you expect to kill things quickly.

Edit:

That made me test comparatively my 80 exotic guardian Vs 80 exotic thief Vs 80 exotic mesmer how long it takes to kill one mob, move on to the next mob and kill that one outside Meddler’s Wapoint:
Guardian: 16-20 seconds
Thief: 20-26 seconds
Mesmer: 28-32 seconds

Ok, no offense, but you’re probably bad. Full exotic 80? Like I said, takes me ~3-5 seconds. Considering a glass cannon Thief can unload 35k damage on me in WvW within 0.75 seconds, I seriously doubt they take 20-26 seconds to kill two mobs.

The first several levels suck balls on a Mesmer. Use the scepter for its clone generation until level 7, where you can swap weapons and get more DPS out.

Mesmer is heavily reliant on weapon swaps, so if you don’t have a tight habit of that, your PvE will be slower than expected until you do.

If the mobs last long enough to aggro a player, then you could probably use lots of other stuff to tag them.

If they only last 1 second, then no worries about the aggro from IP Shatters!

Catch-22 on the Mesmer’s side.

^

This. Autoattack is a skill.

There is a good segment of time when your target is between abilities, or running, or re-targeting, etc where Wastel’s Punishment applies.

Still, the window is a bit smaller than some other similar traits across the classes. I think 10% would be more on par.

My concern is that such a thing as a ‘shatter build’ even exists as a standalone pathway – is there such a thing as an ‘adrenaline build’, ‘pet build’ or ‘deathshroud build’? If there are, then I guess I’m not understanding the premise of what core profession mechanics are supposed to be, rather than supporting a variety of branching playstyles.

All builds for classes in this game are centered on specific characteristics that you emphasize. Necros do have “minion builds”, or “condition builds” or even deathshroud builds (from what I can tell these are unpopular, similar to Mantra builds for Mesmers).

Warriors have weapon-swap builds, adrenaline cycle builds, adrenaline storage builds, shout builds, “average adrenaline” builds which don’t manipulate adrenaline one way or another.

Thieves have steal damage builds, steal utility builds, “no steal traiting” builds. Stealth offense builds, stealth defense builds, not-much-stealth builds.

The Mesmer class is made up of the following characteristics:

1. Clones.
2. Phantasms.
3. Shatters.
4. Everything else.

Builds can focus on one or more of the above. Of course, all 4 of those are also split between “power” and “condition”, as well as “offense” and “defense”.

So. Shatter builds are fine. They utilize clones and phantasms for Shattering (although phantasms are still used for damage, and clones are still used for utility).

Phantasm builds obviously center on sustained phantasms. And, shatters are still used for burst or for utility, and clones are still used for their effects.

Clone builds can center on shatters or clone-expiration, or both.

A coherent build focuses generally on one segment, without neglecting other segments.

This is the key part. Most bad players of bad builds will neglect the other mechanics in favor of over-investing into a single mechanic. For example, bad shatter builds will shatter 24×7, and will not let clone/phantasms maximize their uptime (while shattering).

Bad players of the phantasm build will neglect the value of clone abilities (you see people kitten about clones overwriting their 3rd phantasm, and then choosing to not use the clone ability — bad), and will never shatter.

If you only focus on one aspect of the class and assume that it is the main or “only” or “default” focus of the class, you’ve already failed. The classes are designed and balanced to use all aspects of the class, even though your build will typically emphasize one piece or another.

One of the major keys to success is knowing when that other button you don’t normally use is, in fact, the best way to proceed with the fight.

Abarcine.7189:

If no, OP says shatter is flawed mechanically. Others say that it’s fine as is and needs little/no adjustment, I’d like to know what weapon sets, and which traits are being brought by the ones claiming to have so much success is all.

If yes, Shatter intentionally being reliable for only a melee-oriented mesmer feels iffy to me. We have our entire class bar devoted to bringing a single MH. While sword is a great weapon it can’t be intended that everyone either use their sword or treat your class bar as an afterthougt that might work. Most of our weapon options are ranged. Why devote our class bar to one playstyle?

I’ve run successful shatter builds of various flavors with the following weapons: GS, Torch, MH Sword, OH Sword, Staff, Focus, Pistol.

I presume Scepter would be quite valid, but I haven’t really used Scepters for more than very short periods in 75 levels.

The weapons actually do not matter for shattering. The weapons will be associated with whether you have a power, condition, offensive, defensive, or utility build. Only caveat is that Staff, GS, and Scepter are slightly emphasized for shattering because of their faster clone generation.

Typical shatter gameplay will occur between 900 range and melee, however. The two segments of gameplay where shatters are slightly weak are:

1. Shooting down a dungeon boss that you’re unfamiliar with. If you don’t know the mechanics and telegraphs, staying at 1200 range is beneficial. You may also lose a lot of phantasm/clones to AOEs you are not aware of.

2. Wall sieging in WvW. Obviously, most clone/phantasms can’t run up or down the wall for shattering. Tedious.

Engineer’s pretty weak at WvW. Mobile builds aren’t threatening. Immobile builds are irrelevant. Only difficult Engi fight I’ve ever encountered was one roamer who turrent planted, but ended up running away due to a kittenon of boons + swiftness.

Warrior’s ok if you: dive/100hb, pure glass Kill Shot, or shout support. Other than that, they are pretty average. Seem pretty poor in 1v1 if you go those builds though, requires a group. Conversely, Warr 1v1 builds (Hammer/Mace combos) seem pretty lackluster in groups.

prodigy.1023:

Okay, it’s pretty obvious mesmer is completely obliterated (major nerfs to all weapons). GS guardian got nerfed as well. Thief was never good (PvE-wise).

So what should I reroll now? For PvE, I mean. Ranger? Warrior?

Are you joking?

Mesmers barely got scratched in power, with only a moderate dent to bunker army builds.

For hearts and dungeons, Mesmers are fine. Currently Mesmers may be slightly OP for dungeons.

The changes to Mesmers, in my eyes, don’t entirely make sense.
Mesmers have two big concerns with the 7th’s patch: Phantasm changes and Chaos Storm changes. I will detail them individually.

They make perfect sense.

1. iD, iW, and iS cooldowns were really kitten short. They could drop 5k-9k damage shots every 4-6 seconds. You could already summon 2 of them at the start of any fight. That’s like a Warrior dropping 2 Eviscerates, except you don’t have to run into melee, and the phantasms can be utilized for additional purposes.

I currently run with iBerserker and iWarden, and the cooldowns on those (without the Focus trait, mind you) are sufficient for general PvP gameplay.

Currently, the cooldown on the 3 nerfed phantasms are low enough that it is slightly (not hugely, but slightly) unreasonable to demand that players kill them continuously in a bunker build.

2. Chaos Storm is retardedly powerful. It’s literally one of the most powerful abilities in the entire game. It Aegises you more frequently than a traited Guardian, and has a surplus of other effects. The clincher in this nerf is that leap-ethereal gives you Chaos Armor, which becomes redundant as skill4 if you can pop it so often from the combo. Personally I’m a bit annoyed by the extremity of the nerf, but it makes sense.

… How? What are you using to get that high of a Mind Wrack damage on a 4x Shatter? I quite literally can’t figure that out.

He’s exaggerating. You get 15k MWs with 4x on a lowbie WvW. In sPvP the numbers go down significantly.

1-2: No class should be “Well that’s the PVP clas, so it’s OK if they can’t hold up in PvE.” Nor the reverse. All professions should have viable builds for any role. That’s the goal Anet set out for, and I support that goal.

Mesmers are fine at PvE.

The only segments of gameplay where Mesmers are subpar are at:

1. Orr DE farming (note: several other classes not named “ENGINEER”, “GUARDIAN”, or “ELEMENTALIST” are in the same boat).

2. 100% map exploration. Mesmers are slightly slower on foot.

For all other segments of PvE gameplay, Mesmers are on par if not better than other classes.

The changes are not eventful. Only notable change, as stated earlier in the thread, is the Chaos Storm hit.

The cooldown on phantasms won’t matter much except for an extended bunker army build.

Just means you trait some cripple on clone death and kite more.

Mesmers do well in WvW, dungeons, sPvP, tPvP, solo PvE, PS, DEs.

Mesmers are underpar at Orr DEs, 100% map exploration.

I guess I’m just glad the Mesmer strengths match my playstyle 100%.

Btw, Rangers are weak in WvW. Last I checked they were weak in sPvP too. They need some buffs for several aspects of the class.

Edit: The #1 contribution of Rangers in WvW is their heal with provides a water field. I feel bad for them.

BUT THEY CAN RUN AROUND THE MAP FOR 100% COMPLETE REALLY FAST!

Netfools.3640:

So it is bugged then. It should take effect immediately when they are summoned.

Yes — it’s in the list on the first page .

Hum, you can cancel HB. You can also dodge roll to cancel Rush.

Just sayin’.

There are also many moves you can cancel with others (e.g. HB → Whirlwind; I suspect you can cancel HB/WW with Blade Trail).

Levetty.1279:

WvWvW is PvE with worse mob AI don’t fool yourself.

Uh, no. That’s the dumbest comment I’ve read all week, and I’ve read quite a few.

Edit: What server do you play on?

I never said trash was hard, learn to read.

You said it was [hard] to do efficiently. E.g. you are unable to kill mobs efficiently. If you were capable of doing so, you would. You’re not. It’s hard for you.

What?

There is no variety.

Variety … you mean like a Warrior variety of “swing weapon” or “swing weapon”?

Or Necro variety of “summon minionz” or “spam conditions”?

Wow … so much variety where the grass is greener.

I run Centaur ruins(IMO a must have for Mesmers in WvW) so I don’t need the focus for speed.

I run Scholar runes. You can imagine my priorities in WvW .

Almost all “HIGH DAMAGE WTF BBQ” complaints are from WvW, in large part because the raw gear has more crit damage stats than sPvP gear. Nevermind other stuff. 25k Kill Shot? WvW.

Then level difference and so on. However, Backstabs still hit for up to 18k and probably more against level 80 glass builds.

You are also making kittenumptions about lag and ‘chaos’. Just don’t.

Signet of Illusions takes about 4-5 seconds to apply to the illusions. Start off combat with a clone to take the hit for the phantasm to survive. Also, use other CC to give the phantasm breathing room.

Trouble is, people will HATE you in WvW when you use Focus #4. They accidentally run over it, and boom, whatever swiftness they had is down to 10 seconds.

Well, no, that’s not how it works. If you walk over curtain while you have a Swiftness boon on you, the Curtain does nothing.

Do you play a Mesmer?

You think 15k damage over 6 seconds (iWarden channel time) is good?

No, but I will not extrapolate since I don’t feel a need to try and get Mesmers nerfed anytime soon.

Umm, yeah, they are. If a simple root is enough to get them killed.

By simple root, you mean a cripple, pull, cripple, root — and this is the chasedown combo, not the actual fight combo.

That aside, yes “simple roots” do get people killed in WvW … all the time.

Do you really need help to kill a downed player…

Well yes, since downed players have 4-7 people trying to rez them. Do you play against competent opponents in WvW?

Then Into the Void appears. Then you have 5 seconds to use the pull or it’s gone. Very easy to counter

You’re really going to use 5 seconds of dodge rolls (which is not possible under normal conditions btw), after you’ve already used other cooldowns to escape the Berserker and other DPS?

Yeah sorry forgot that 3 maps spread over the whole of one mode is more content then the whole PvE, dungeons and WvWvW combined. k

Odd, the only problem here is in Orr, which is 1 zone. Also, WvW = PvP zones. 4 sPvP maps + 4 WvW zones >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PvE.

Mesmers suffer in exploration, tagging in DEs, efficiently getting through trash in solo and quite frankly variety of our builds.

Mesmers suffer in 100% map complete exploration, and in DE tagging (along with other classes).

That’s it.

If you perceive that trash is hard to solo, and that the Mesmer has a low build variety, that is purely your deficiency as a player. Don’t blame the class.

I spam Death Blossom and not get hit. I’d also spread bleeds AoE like crazy on top of huge damage, but that’s neither here nor there. As a Mesmer, I can sort of do the same with Blurred Frenzy followed by Dissipation

Blurred Frenzy does significantly more damage than Death Blossom, and the invuln lasts longer.

Also, BF has a reasonably short cooldown at 8s with the trait. It’s pretty trivial to interleave other abilities for the cooldown.

Note that Death Blossom is not actually spammed (or else you run out of Initiative in 3 seconds). Used effectively, it has a practical ~2-3s cooldown.

You are immobilized with a sword, and you Blurred Frenzy is blown, and you have no illusions up. How do you survive? There’s a number of ways – is switch weapon is off CD, you can try that, or use of of several utilities, etc. For a thief, he can just cast Death Blossom. And another after that. Then use Steal and another and another. There, he just survived without blowing any cooldowns something that would have got you killed as a Mesmer,

1. The Thief used a 45s cooldown via Stealth with a trait for Init on steal. The Thief also blew close to a full bar and a half of Initiative. You realize that with 1 condition removal (for the bleed), the Thief has now incurred a ~10 second “I AM COMPLETELY USELESS” situation, right? Unless they blow other significant cooldowns, etc.

2. On the Mesmer scenario, you have assumed that the Mesmer already blew several cooldowns (yet somehow the Thief magically has a full bar of Initiative and a 45s cooldown for more Init, LOL). Mesmer options:

- Swap knockback (GS).
- Into the Void (no swap, Focus).
- Magic Bullet (no swap, Pisol).
- Swap Chaos Storm / Phase Retreat (staff).
- Swap Chaos Armor (staff).
- Swap Phase Retreat (staff).
- Prestige (no swap, Torch, versus targeted+non-channel abilities).
- IP Distortion (trait/spec).
- iWarden (versus projectiles).
- Feedback (Utility).
- Decoy (Utility, versus targeted+non-channel abilities).
- Blink (IWIN button)
- <insert condition removal + Dodge>
- Time Warp and kill the person
- Glamour Blind (trait/spec)
- Swap Scepter block
- Swap Scepter blind
- Sword4 block
- Mantra of Distraction Daze (Utility, versus single target)
- Portal (prepared event, Utility)

I’m sure there’s another option or two I don’t recall at the moment (oh, SigDom / Utility, IP Diversion, Confusion stack to blow up your attacker, Moa), but suffice to say that the Mesmer has a good range of options on weaponsets alone, nevermind utility options, to deal with being Immobilized. Also, not positive Death Blossom is usable while Immobilized, but we’ll go with it anyways.

It’s 4 init per cast. How much does an average thief build has? How fast it regens passively. How he can regen it actively if traited? Do the math.

5 times. And you blew 4 of them. They get what, 1 Heartseeker?

How much Init traiting are you talking about? Does the Thief have any DPS traiting after the Init traiting you propose?

There are situations where being able to perform the same Mesmer ability just three times back to back would be a huge game-changer.

Duh, Mesmer abilities are typically more potent. Compare Mirror Blade to Heartseeker. Mirror Blade does more damage, provides better buffs, and provides better conditions all in 1 button.

If I could spam that even twice in a row, I would eradicate every enemy on the map all the time every time.

Incidentally, take a look at the sPvP forum. Look at stickies. The ONLY sticky on that forum is Thief Discussion Thread. Not Mesmer, not Warrior, not Ranger. Thief. Interesting, isn’t it? As the saying goes, where there’s smoke…

You really want to talk about sPvP? Do you realize that Mesmers are tied with Thieves for the #1 most complained-about/OP individual class in sPvP, with Guardians bringing up 3rd place for team support+bunker? And that at higher rankings, Mesmers displace Thieves?

sPvP is a really, really bad example for making any hint of a case against the power of Mesmers.

I’ve been in Orr for about a week now and I’ve not seen this problem.

Are you on a high pop server? It’s like this on JQ in most Orr DEs.

Apologies for the mis-reply then.

That aside, who said anything about tPvP?

Lols, the screenshot is from WvW.

Trust me, 33k is pretty close to “IWIN”. Not quite, since unless they have the range trait, I can rangecheck them at 1200 and use an invuln to basically shut down the build (I can imagine a wasted Mug, CnD, Quick/noEnd buff with Exposed will pretty much make the guy a sitting duck).

I’ll have to spend some time on the builder to see how viable/likely the range trait is in this type of build.

It’s not about that. The situation is that there are 40 players dropping AOEs where the mobs spawn. They are using sustained GTAOEs so the AOEs are basically on the spot 24×7. You have about 1.0-2.5 seconds (depending on the DE and how many players of which classes) max to get any damage on the mob to get credit for $ and loot.

Amiron.1067:

If you have to use every weapon skill on your bar and multiple shatters to kill a single mob in that amount of time, you’re doing it wrong. My mesmer chops undead in Orr apart within 4-6 seconds at max with only using one weapon set and a single shatter (Mind Wrack).

^

Hint: most Mesmers don’t use Shatters, or don’t use them well. This is the cause for a large fraction of complaints on this forum.

Sabbathius.1465:

Two words: Video Please!

Mirror Blade, iBerserker, PS, Shatter. Dead. Use a direct/burst damage build to deal direct damage. Problem solved.

Even if mob spawns are randomized and staggered all over the place, on my Engineer I can “reach out and touch” a mob with my grenades before anyone else can, as grenades have high AoE radius as well as range (1500 range + radius of the explosion).

No. The grenades have travel time. I guarantee iBerserker will win the race. Furthermore, Spatial Surge is pure instant.

But it still doesn’t solve the problem

There is a problem?

Last I checked Engineers get kittentomped in WvW because they don’t seem to really do anything useful in almost any situation. To me, that’s a problem.

Then again I’m not Chinese.

It has a much larger radius than you think and it can hit a near endless amount of targets. I get 2000 crits PER ILLUSION with this sucker.

Mind Wrack seems to hit up to 5 targets per; given that you have multiple Illusions out, they tend to hit different things. This is also why iBerserker is pretty useful — each of the 3 spin ticks can hit 5 different targets.

Sidenote: I crit for 2800 per with 3x+IP. Yeah, 11k MWs make me giggle.

In short, AoE on the Mesmer is phenomenal.

The topic centers on rapid AOE within 1.5 seconds. In this situation, Mesmer AOE is only mediocre, and primarily limited to iBerserker and IP Shatters.

I had a longer post typed out, but I’ll re-consolidate with the following points:

1. First, your example is horrible because you are using long-cooldown Utility abilities. Thieves also use the cooldown mechanic for Utility abilities. Despite the terribad-ness of the example, the point is fine.

2. You presume that there is 1 best solution for any given situation, and that that solution is more valuable when spammed. This is false. You cite the example of catching someone with DD’s Cripple. You describe that you can spam the ability over and over until it lands.

- First, the Thief will be out of Initiative from “brute-forcing” the Cripple.

- Second, a Mesmer has similar chasedown abilities, but they do more things than “just Cripple” (and damage in the case of DD). While a Thief can brute force DD, a Mesmer’s chasedown iLeap not only causes a Cripple, it also combos into an Immobilize (and a swap!), which is far more powerful. E.g. the raw ability is more potent than DD. As another example, Curtain/Void also provides a range cripple … it also provides Swiftness and a pull/knockdown. Cripple + Swiftness + Pull + Knockdown + Light Field. Versus a Cripple + damage. Hmm. Clearly the single use of the cooldown-based ability is more potent. That is part of the tradeoff for an initiative-based mechanic. In a damage example, iBerserker will cripple … and do significant damage. And it can be Shattered for bonus, or do other phantasm things (regen, protection, w/e your traits dictate).

- To re-cap, a good Thief will need to time their abilities just like any other class so that they do not waste Initiative. In doing so they behave more like cooldown-based classes. While they retain the option of spamming something when the moment presents itself, the individual abilities are less potent than those on cd-based classes (well, abilities that have any notable cooldown at any rate).

3. My point was that while Thieves obviously have a different playstyle because they obviously have a different resource mechanic (NO kitten?), there is no overarching advantage to either method. In terms of raw activity, proficient players of both classes should be spamming abilities non-stop. There is simply a different sequence and rhythm to the spam.

I posted this in other threads, but may as well repost here. There are 3 relatively easy/quick things ANet can do to stabilize WvW:

1. Scoring. To mitigate population swings throughout the day, ANet should adjust point accrual to the total activity. If only 70% of the maximum population is in WvW, then the point accrual should be reduced to 70%. The only side-effect is the matchmaking system ranking servers between matchups, since different tiers will have different total activity. Then again, this can be intended. The point adjustment can also be delayed by 1 tick for various reasons (e.g. a 3:00pm population count will be used to adjust the 3:15 tick).

2. Resets. Make all WvW objectives, NPCs, walls, doors invulnerable to damage for the first 15-30 minutes after a WvW reset / server restart. They need to do this until they are able to provide consistent access immediately after a reset. Every single reset, there seems to be a random zone or zones that are inaccessible by various servers. Until ANet can fix that technical issue, they need to implement a band-aid to prevent silly free capping due to their network limitations.

3. Supply decay to mitigate the winning team’s advantage. Supply and siege need to decay much more quickly, with keeps/towers having lower total supply caps. This will make rear towers and keeps much more vulnerable to ninja pushes and prevent spawncamping. It will help simulate a true “stretched supply line”. Currently, it is all too easy to stock insane amounts of siege and supply in fortified keeps and towers and make them virtually impenetrable, depending on terrain. The result is that the current battlefields become too static in a domino-effect.

Edit:

Also a few other much-needed changes:

1. Ability to see the WvW map from outside of WvW. Seriously. This is insane that you can’t see this atm.

2. Queue information. What # are you in line. What are the queues for the various WvW zones. Are you actually queued? This is also insane that you can’t see this.