Guild Wars 2

Amiron.1067:

Malakree.5912:

Problem with the mesmer atm is it’s a sustained ramp profession that lacks some of the up front spike other classes can bring. A thief can burst a mob down in 2/3 seconds while that same 2/3 seconds we just preping the fight. Also we lack decent consistent aoe atm.

What drugs are you on? It takes me three seconds max to destroy a mob with no preparation. Throw greatsword while close so it bounces and gives me six stacks of might, watch clone get summoned and finally mind wrack for deathblow. If thats not enough, I just shove an ether blade up hiskitten People are making mesmer way too complex than it actually is.

He’s trying to summon 3 Phantasms.

Then again, I have a 52 Elementalist so Mesmer doesn’t seem all that complicated in comparison. I suppose if I had started with a Ranger or something I might feel different.

Rangers are pretty hard to play if you maximize your weapon swaps, pet swaps, and pet attacks for buffs.

1 : How far does he leap back or is he as likely to get trashed by AOE as the iB? Is that higher DPS vs a target with 5-7 conditions going.

iS leaps back a decent amount. Maybe 500 units? Out of range of small AOEs, but in range of large AOEs. Note that iB will be out of range of AOEs depending on where it starts the spin. If it starts close to the target it will go through them a pretty good distance away.

2: Several issues I have with condition builds are their inability to be effective in events with destroyable objects that are also present in dungeons as well as a certain boss that’s immune to them. iW is useless in the above as well but you’ve got more weapon options with a power build I feel. Against most things that matter you’re going to have an average of 5-7 up

Well, two things:

- Phantasms are power build functions for the most part. SI is what makes Phantasms relevant with a condition damage build.
- iWarlock is no exception — it deals pure power damage. The scaling is based on # of conditions, not their strength. It is viable to run a build with Staff/iWarlock in a pure power build, but you are then using the Staff conditions for the utility, CC, and defensive capabilities as an off-weapon. You are not spamming Staff1 as a damage vector.

3: The bleed does about 1350 damage or iB after bleeds does about 1350 damage? Is that total supposed to be near iW’s output on single target with 5-7 conditions up? I feel like a lot of these comparisons are in made from a condition mesmer’s PoV where the warlock isn’t such an attractive option.

iB does 1350 direct damage non crit against a heavy armor golem using a heavy power build. The bleed, in a moderate condition damage and moderate crit rate build with SI, will do roughly 600 damage. Note that iB would do significantly more than 1350 damage with crits and against targets that aren’t heavy armor.

6: Big Ifs there

Perhaps. I find that Into the Void and Sword3 tends to be able to shift things to my favor. Also, enemy siege units do not move in WvW.

7: Again the squish or target moved issue

No: reflecting projectiles against a range target removes half their offensive capability … and reflects it. Also, target moved is irrelevant. If they move, you move to keep the iW between you and the target.

8: Sure he’s boring but he’s also reliable and effective.

Effective is too broad a term to apply to the situation.

Maybe I’m missing something but what other clone generator than Mirror Blade is contributes to damage? Is using a greatsword required ?

All clone generators generate potential damage from shatters and traits. That aside, Mirror Blade is the big one since it does a lot of damage and has significant buffs/debuffs, particularly with Elasticity.

Scepter2 does very very good damage if the block takes effect, as does Sword4.

Out of left field – what about reducing shatters down from four skills to two, with the other two effects becoming traitable? The traits themselves would need to be more powerful than they currently are, but it would make shattering builds more viable and easier to use.
F1 – Mind Wrack
F2 – Diversion
Traits:
- Shattering illusions applies Confusion (3/5/7 stacks for 5s)
- Shattering illusions gives you Distortion (2/3/4s)

I rather like having more Shatter buttons, because each one procs more Shatter traits, but w/e. As long as the Mesmer is not weaker after any changes, shrug.

Actually what your comparing is 3phantasm+0 shatter > 2phantasm+2shatter. (This is really 1 shatter with 3 clones)

Actually what I’m comparing is 3 phantasm + 0 shatter < 2 phantasm + clone + MB + shatter x3-4.

Also you didn’t waste that bit of extra time resummoning which means it’s actually 3phantasm+1attack+0shatter >2 phantasm +1shatter.

The time is not weasted if the phantasms are not attacking anyways.

Btw, I don’t suck at timing to I get a free half attack cycle for resummoning the phantasms.

Therefore I don’t get 2 phantasms, I get 3.

3 phantasms + 0 shatter < 3 phantasms + 2 clones + MB + shatter x3-4.

Holy kitten my kitten just shot through the roof. I am so bad at this game but you make me look so good.

Essentially anyone who bothers to look at a proper phantasm build can see it’s not only intended that we keep phantasms out and stack them but it’s ironically the best supported in the trait tree.

Really? There are more shatter traits than phantasm-stay-alive traits.

Phantasmal Mage summons a phantasm whose name is Illusionary Mage.

Pretty sure the bounce range is actually 900.

I can tell because I use Sword3 all thekittentime which is 600. There is a clear difference.

Edit: Or it may be my perception error due to the delay where the GS bounce is calculated while moving towards the target.

The Mesmer is an excellent class, albeit a complex one, that is played by average players.

There are a few Mesmer playstyles that are accessible for the masses, most notably the common Phantasm army style. However, these are like GS HB gimmick Warriors that Bull Rush Frenzy into every fight*.

• Although the Mesmer build in question is stronger, huehuehue.

Malakree.5912:

To summerize, stop hating on the phantasm build, we get you don’t like it. If you hate it that badly go play a warrior/engineer or accept that your just not going to play it. The problem is not phantasms, the problem is that phantasms are the only properly supported trait build which doesn’t suck.

“Phantasm builds” are lazy, although they are effective. To pretend they are the best is kind of silly.

They are popular because they are easy to play — the player doesn’t need much skill to summon a fire-and-forget pet and then run away.

So, it’s not surprising there are legions of rabid fans that proclaim it’s the only effective way to play.

Shriketalon.1937:

1) Shatter cannot balance its checkbook.

Here’s an arithmetic problem for you. Is seven copper pieces equal to three silver, and are both equal to five gold? […]

No need to be equal when the 7 copper is a free addition to the 3 silver.

Unless, of course, you’re the shatter system. To shatter, a phantasm that deals hundreds of damage per shot is worth exactly as much as a scepter clone that deals single digit damage at level 80, which is in turn equal to a sword clone that inflicts vulnerability with each hit, which is supposedly equal to a staff clone that inflicts condition damage. Every single one of those illusions have different amounts of power and different cooldowns, but shatter exchanges them for the exact same amount of burst damage. All illusions are equal, but some are more equal than others.

Incorrect. Your valuation of Illusions here is based on a poor assumption that you are trading their value over a certain [long] timeframe for the Shatter. You should improve your personal skills/gameplay to alter the timeframe of Illusions that you trade for the Shatter. That, or increase the rate at which your mind processes and perceives the battle such that you can identify the specific points in time where the cost is low to none.

*And finally, like the Necromancer, the Mesmer is handed a class mechanic that only caters toward one overall playstyle. Classes are supposed to be more than that: a banner/rifle warrior is not remotely the same as berserker axe wielder, nor does a flamethrower juggernaut engie play like a turret builder. But every single Mesmer is expected to be a minion bomber, regardless of whether or not creating fragile NPCs and sending them to snuggle a target is viable.

When you get good at playing a Mesmer some time in the future, you will realize that Shatters are effective for many, many builds, whether for the damage or the utility or the other utility you trait into them. It’s all a matter of timing.

Sidenote: a banner/rifle warr is the same as a berserker axe wielder. They just F1 at different times and wait different times for running in. Mesmer actually has rather more variation in builds.

Game theory refers to the study of decision making. In this circumstance, it refers to when people decide to shatter or not shatter. You can see this in other threads, where players refer to the problem where 3 phantasms are dealing more damage than shattering and resummoning those same phantasms. In these circumstances, especially when a player has heavily invested traits into the phantasm mechanic, there isn’t any reason to even bring shatter skills along.

It’s really funny to watch people make incorrect comparisons and then try to justify their logic using “Game Theory” in order to sound legitimate.

You can stack it to 25, I just wasn’t at all clear on the fact that’s very hard to do and only doable with 3 clones and time warp. But you’re right 100% about the ambiguity there so I’ve clarified it a little bit. I’ll be going more into how conditions work a little bit in teh future.

Hum … 9 + 4 + 1 + ~6 + 3 + 1 + 1 = 23, so close to 25 stacks without Time Warp.

Lot of effort though!

This damage is actually pretty poor compared to the upfront damage most of the other professions has access to. Plus it’s entirely cooldown based (mirror images is a 40second cd?).

It’s less but I wouldn’t call it poor. I can burst about 11k damage in 5 seconds using <14s cooldowns. Warrs and Thieves can do that in about 3 seconds, but they burn a 45s+ cooldown for it.

So then we make a fair comparison which is
(a) 3 phantasms, 15-20 stacks of bleed, 4-6 stacks of vulerability, 8-16 stacks of confusion, potential stacks of burning, bleeding, vulnerability,confusion, cripple, blind, poison, weakness, chilled. With buffs of might, fury, swiftness, regen, protection, retaliation and aegis.
Your right it IS fairly onesided. Maybe your just not using a phantasm build right?

All those particular effects are also mirrored in option (b), which makes listing them superfluous. E.g. I listed the actual differences.

Sir, please roll a Mesmer and play one and/or l2analysis prior to posting.

Abarcine.7189:

Also you’d need that second phantasm to be able to beat out the warlocks damage. The zerker from the GS comes no where near his DPS. Warden would do nicely but its getting him to live longer than 3seconds that’s the issue.

1. iSwordsman unconditionally does 50% more DPS than iWarlock.
2. iD does more DPS than iW in a condition [damage] build with SI and crit% (note: in a pure power build, iD does 1400 damage per 6s compared to iW’s 1500 damage per 6s with 3-4 conditions on the target; iD gains significant advantages with SI and crit%).
3. iB is competitive with iW in a non-extreme-power build with SI since it hits 3 times (iB in a similar pure power build would do about 1350 damage).
4. iB outclasses most phantasms in any AOE situation.
5. iB has the most utility with its damage due to cripple.
6. iWarden trashes everything else on the table assuming it stays alive and the target stays in range.
7. iWarden completely dominates any comparison by a mile if you have Warden’s Feedback on a ranged target.
8. iWarlock has the least interesting combo finisher of any phantasm (1 Projectile per 6s; iD has Projectile x8 x20% per 6s, iS has Leap per 4s, iB has Whirl x3 per 6s, and iWarden has Whirl x? per 8s? I think).

So, there are a lot of variations and conditions — your “iWarlock” constraint seems very random.

It makes for a more active playstyle sure but I’m not sure you can beat out 3 warlocks spamming their ability.

Pretty sure you can beat out 3 phantasms minus clone generating abilities using 2 phantasms + shatters + cone generating abilities.

Although, none of this is really relevant since 3 afk phantasms is not viable in any relevant combat situation.

I think one issue with players in general (and I did this as well) is to try to use Mantras in bulk as a “Mantra build” rather than just saying “ok, a 2-shot cleanse would be useful in this build”. This makes Mantras appear a little worse than they are.

Is there a reason they added a channel mechanic to it anyways? I had thought it used to just be a stealth.

It seems like ANet could simply remove the channel mechanic from the ability and make it:

1. AOE Burn
2. 3s Stealth
3. Blind after 3 seconds (e.g. not directly tied to stealth de-activation, just make the AOE Blind happen at 3.0s).

Well you not only double the phantasms’ actual attack, but add a bonus shatter (+shatter procs) on top.

The comparison is pretty clear.

Yeah, I would just be generally concerned because as far as I’m aware, WvW is coded as a PvE zone (does not allow “PvP gear” a la sPvP). If the PvP vs. PvE ability coding is based on zone, then this might be a problem. If it’s based on actual target, then yeah it should probably be easy.

At least 15 Inspiration and 15 Chaos. Vigor on Shatter. Heal on Shatter.

Then you can either do mantra heal spam with the heal on mantra charge trait (use this with Mantra of Pain), or you can go Glamour heavy with combo fields, or a mixture of both.

Scepter 2 does create a clone when you block.

Scepter is the “clone-spammiest” weapon. I think the notion was for the clones to by shatter fodder for more confusion, but it doesn’t work that way in practice.

That would work, as long as “PvE” does not apply to [players in] WvW.

I think it’s pretty obviously a bug where you get most or all of the effect of a skill while bypassing 80%+ of its cooldown.

I’ll call your dare: it is viable but not superior.

It just means that Scepter is an awkward weapon for a 3x Phantasm strategy, similar to Greatsword. Of course, if you are doing the “afk Phantasm army”, it’s pretty obvious that offhand Sword (power) and Pistol (condition damage+IS+crit), or Staff (power or condition damage) are going to be your best general options. Guess that doesn’t help with the Scepter mainhand issue, except that MH Sword generally makes a better power weapon than Scepter. The blind is good though; often better than Blurred Frenzy for avoiding damage.

You could also stick with Scepter, but manage it properly: e.g. only swap to Scepter to summon the “first wave” of Phantasms, and switch to your primary (likely Staff) for most of your play.

GS optimal range is around 900 for GS2 bounces.

The 1 attack for most weapons are pretty lackluster and ignorable for the purpose of your build / playstyle.

Odaman.8359:

Favorite
Mantras (<3 +20% dmg (39% total) w/ 115% crit dmg, 50% crit, and 2.3k power)

That one Mantra trait is +4% per, for 16% with 4. Don’t think anyone’s tested it though.

Go ahead and film it, post it, and be sure to link it here, on gw2guru, and every other forum you can find. Also make sure you in-game character name is visible, along with an indication of which server you play on.

If you are willing, please title the threads “45k damage iWarden”. Perhaps in all caps.

Thank you.

To start, we both summon two phantasms. Then you shatter yours while I leave mine out. By the time our phantasm cooldowns are up again, my phantasms have attacked again, far outdamaging your shatter,

Or I could wait until the phantasm cooldown is just about up to Shatter so I can, you know, re-summon immediately. Like I said.

OMG MIND BLOWN.

Indeed. I like using Mantra of Distraction combined with a Shatter build for insane Daze combos. I always forget to recharge thekittenthing though.

Of course, when I do remember, I do it in combat by mistake and it gets me killed.

#%&^&#%*#$

Discussion, observation, and common sense do not meet the standards of formal scientific inquiry.

Welcome to the official forums, sir.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combo

Relevant to this discussion are your Ethereal Combo Fields (Chaos Storm, Feedback, I think Null Field and maybe Veil count as well) combined with any Leap finisher (Staff2 and Sword3).

Two Phantasms ARE better than two shattered phantasms, because they’ll attack again in 6-8 seconds and deal two or three times the damage of the shatter.

But I summoned 2 more immediately, so I get 2 phantasms + 2 shatters whereas you afk’d and just have 2 phantasms.

Ergo I do more damage.

Also, a single phantasm does not do 2-3x a traited Mind Wrack. Just no.

People dislike mantras because they are cumbersome. That and ANet has half a dozen traits specific to them, haha.

I think he’s agreeing that the purple UI orbs are false indicators in this context.

Bibidiboo.6409:

It does.
It hits 11 times AoE.
First 5 hits do 1500-3000 damage
Last 6 hits do 4000-7500

Depends on amount of crits.

Full lvl 80 exotic berserker gear.

Protip: your iWarden is hitting for 350-700 damage per hit.

Because 2 phantasm + 2 shatter > 2 phantasm + 0 shatter.

M4th is h4rd.

Nikijih.1075:

Funny that you would choose those 2 exemples rofl. Nonetheless, be satisfied with your answer if you want, I’ll go look for more information and testing.

It is funny, isn’t it? Because both examples are essentially true, and yet somehow we manage to live our daily lives.

Now live your daily GW2 life and treat iD like it does a realistic amount of damage.

There are two different things —

1. open world PvE, and
2. DEs

DEs require AOE tagging, not necessarily the ability to kill lots of mobs.

AOE tagging = Illusory Persona + GS. GS can tag lots of mobs, Shatters can tag lots of mobs (both F1 and F2 — F2 has a direct damage component in addition to applying the confusion).

For killing … whatever. Staff works, Focus is solid, GS is great for open PvE.

Haha. Rock on! This class is insane man, so fun.

It’s poor players that like to ignore half the fight and pretend that the math is simple. They typically see the big number and feel fuzzy.

It’s a little true, but not really true. Much like any class, a Mesmer gets more entertaining with more levels. Tbh, a Mesmer is only “broken” for the first like 6 levels. They get a lot more interesting by level 20. There’s no point after 20 where a Mesmer goes from “bad” to "good. They’re basically great at level 7 and get better.

If this is not the case for you … try a different class.

If you like PvP, I recommend trying out sPvP for a bit (where you are level 80 with access to everything).

Nikijih.1075:

Applied to this case: who knows, maybe we are BOTH wrong and damage is calculated/displayed completely differently. But we wont know that without doing some standardized testing.

You don’t KNOW that a meteor won’t hit the earth tonight, or that you won’t be struck by lightning.

You don’t KNOW that you’re not in the Matrix, and that everything you see or hear is reality or make-believe.

But I think it’s reliable enough to work with.

No, he said that if the damage numbers were separate, then the total of damage on Elementalist 1-spam would exceed 10k.

Mediocre player skill is in the toilet.

But that’s true by definition.

Why would it do 4 times the damage of a BF?

Because if the damage numbers were separate, then it would do 4 times the damage of BF.

Simple, isn’t it?

How many times will I have to say it? Conjecture based on non-standardised observation = useless. Thats empirical data, good enough to formulate a hypothesis, not good enough to be used as proof to support one. For crying out loud, have you guys never had a science class in your entire lives?

I didn’t know that watching the sun rise in the east and set in the west required a full scientific proof. Some things in this world are pretty obvious.

Oh man, it’s o-da-man. You playing a Mesmer?

1) Allow the “auto-attack” to damage multiple targets

This would require that the 1 ability be reduced in damage. 1spam is already weak for most weapons (except Staff). This seems silly. GS already has significant AOE/multi-target capability. I see negatives with few, if any, positives.

2) Either decrease the lockout time on the post-cast of Mind Stab or increase it’s damage radius

Pretty sure everyong agrees that the animation of GS3 is the pits. But, this doesn’t break GS. Edit: On this one, I think the AOE size is fine — the ability does decent damage and it strips a boon, so a large AOE would be OP. The most glaring issue here is the length of the kitten animationQQQQQQQ.

3) Up the damage of Illusionary Wave & change it to a knockdown instead of a knockback*

Disagree mostly for PvP reasons. Mesmers already have a spread of stuns and dazes, but a knockback is priceless.

In PvE the knockback is very consistent, but NPCs are not allowed to be knocked off of terrain (e.g. off a cliff), unlike players. So, it is slightly less useful. Never had any “random”/unexpected terrain issues with GS5.

I love Sword. iLeap is generally consistent for me. Sword is the #1 chasedown weapon and excellent for burst combos.

Factual data like observing NPC HP bars where your iD does not do 4 times the damage of a full Blurred Frenzy?

Ah, good to know; I’ve always waited for 1 bubble to go dark.

In the abstract, yes.

Vitality counters burst damage and delays death.

Toughness reduces direct damage (not conditions) and synergizes with heals to counter sustained direct damage.

Toughness isn’t bad, but in most general cases you want Vitality. If you’re limited on gear sets, Toughness is the last stat I would allocate a gear set for.

That being said, if you want to make a point, try not to pull numbers out of thin air, it hurts your credibility.

1. The numbers I pulled were not from “thin air”. I’ve tested iD, iS, iWarlock, and iB damage with the same setup to determine how much damage they all did. Warden and Mage were different and irrelevant to my test.

2. I’m pretty sure that credibility on the official forum isn’t worth much. Especially when the other side of this argument is “my iDuelist does over 9000 damage”. If credibility were part of this discussion, this tangent would have ended 10 posts ago.

That aside, I do not consider the display characteristic a bug. When you hit quickness + 100b on a Warrior, it’s much more effective to show a total damage number.

I’d also like to note that for the attacks in question, the damage display is literally replaced. 175 is replaced by 350. Intuitively, the 175 “grows into” 350 as the damage accumulates. The 350 and 175 do not show up as “separate” numbers if you’re paying close attention, although this does get staggered a bit when you crit, because the graphical animation will change.

Deceptive Evasion requires a valid in-range target for the clone to spawn (range seems to be something like 900 or 1200) and only functions in-combat IIRC.

I like iLeap’s design as-is. I think it clearly needs some range tuning though … clone spawn really needs to be 900 range.