Guild Wars 2

Ryoki Hokishami.2756:

Why are you being so rude? really? You just want to hate Rangers, I’ve seen it before. I wasn’t even counting the output of the downed skills, mainly the output of the pet when it comes to DPS vs other downed skills. Have you seen how much damage a traited cat does, for example?

Why am I being rude? Well it’s simple really, I’m not. Disagreeing with someone is not rude, especially not on a forum. And where do you get off saying that I “just hate rangers”? First off, notice that I don’t have to make ad-hominems and imply that you have some ulterior motive to argue against your points, my arguments are objective and stand on their own. Second, why would I clock like 2,000 hours on a ranger main if I hate rangers? Quite the opposite, I love my ranger, which is why I hate being at such a disadvantage with one.

Also, pets are not “easily” killed in SPVP, if you have a brain in your head and switch them when they’re low on health.

lol, if you don’t trait specifically into pets then your pet is already going to be on cooldown, and in a lot of cases, both are down for the count before you are. And they are easily killed… very easily.

Also, what’s wrong with thunderclap? It’s the same essentially as the warrior stun, but AOE. #1 does decent damage relatively close to most #1 downed skills like engy, except it is guarenteed to bleed.

Thunderclap’s AoE is absolutely tiny, I rarely ever see it daze more than one enemy even when they’re right on top of me. I’m not necessarily complaining about Thunderclap on its own, it’s a fine skill on the surface, but the problem is that as a whole the ranger’s downed skills just do not offer the same effectiveness as everyone else’s. Hammer throw works fine as warrior’s #2 because of the fact that once Vengeance charges, it’s game over. So what if Thunderclap gets you another second closer to your #3 skill? You still have to rely on your pet to heal you, you still have to lie there defenseless and vulnerable to damage and executions. Hammer throw works for warriors only because it gives you two seconds of knockdown to prevent execution, which very often gives you the opportunity to reach Vengeance.

You also missed the point of my vengeance comment. I was saying rangers can do more VS warriors up until the point where vengeance is ready, which is basically a moot point in PVP same as lick wounds because you’re likely dead by that point, barring some miracle (again, this is the same for most classes.)

In my experience that is simply not true. With good positioning and timing you should be able to go down in an advantageous spot, maybe slightly less so in sPvP.

Like I get the Ranger hate, I deal with it every day, but why do you WANT to hate my favorite class? Just, why exactly?

lmao is this a joke? Do you see me asking why you’re blindly supporting the nerfed state of the ranger’s downed skills if it’s your favourite class? That just makes no logical sense to me, and the delivery of your accusation here seems more appropriate of the Jerry Springer show than some honest discussion on a forum.

I mean I gave you tons of examples on how they can defend themselves from execution, and you go ahead and say “they have absolutely no way”, which is totally untrue, but apparently “pets dont count”, am I right? Is wolf fear somehow different from necro fear? AOE stun is apparently worse than a single target knock down? Like really, what?

You give me extremely specific examples of when the ranger’s skills might work effectively, that’s not sufficient. Everyone else has general-purpose skills that are effective in MOST situations. Is a wolfs fear somehow different from necro fear? YES, absolutely. Rangers have to sacrifice their pet choice just to get fear while downed, necros don’t have to sacrifice anything, it’s part of their downed skills. And I don’t have a problem with Thunderclap on its own, in comparison to Hammer Throw, I have a problem with the overall effectiveness of the ranger’s downed skills and how the three skills work together, not by themselves.

And go ahead and tell my pet is an “easy kill” when the majority of pets have more vitality than players (a drake for example has 40,800 health) and I can just switch it every 15 seconds.

And players would be easy kills too if they couldn’t dodge, evade, or use a bar of ten skills.

Ryoki Hokishami.2756:

You’re not sacrificing anything. Wolf/canine pets are meta in PVP scenarios.

lol, meta. Yet another poor excuse. I do not play by “meta” and I should not be expected to in order to have a downed state as effective as everyone else’s — no other class has to play by meta just for basic survival.

And tell me how being able to fear/attack/stun an attacker is somehow worse than say, a warriors setup, who has a single stun and then must wait for vengeance, which by the time it’s ready, he will already be stomped.

Because when a warrior’s Vengeance charges they are instantly immune to execution? When a Ranger’s #3 charges they are slowly healed by a pet who can be killed and have no option to defend from execution. They are not even in the same league.

You’re just another person who doesn’t want to admit that Rangers are all about the pets, it seems. Mesmers use clones while their downed. Why is it so wrong to use pets while downed?

Right, but mesmers can stealth (which makes them invulnerable to execution for a few seconds) and teleport (which can move them to safety), and they get clones on top of that. Compare that with what you’re saying, basically that rangers need to use their pets just to get basic defensive abilities. Mesmers don’t need to use clones to achieve that.

because of the pets, rangers have the highest DPS while downed if traited for beastmastery (which I usually am in PVP modes.) Even if you’re not using a wolf, a lynx F2 while downed deals the same amount of damage, which can be substantial.

lol there is no way a ranger deals the highest DPS while downed. Some downed skills do a terrific amount of damage, including AoE damage, but ranger doesn’t have any of them. And even if pets did good damage while downed (if you want to compare with beast mastery traits you would also have to consider other classes’ trait lines that improve downed skills) pets are easily killed, negating their damage completely. Rangers’ #1 and #2 skills are among the worst downed skills in the game in regards to damage. I can experiment with the exact numbers when I get back on the game but after playing a level 80 of every class I can say that with certainty.

Rangers might not be the BEST in PVP modes, but they’re far from the worst.

They are the only ones with absolutely no way to defend themselves from executions and that makes them the worst from a pretty objective standpoint.

So what you’re saying is that if a game doesn’t have an arrow for you to follow and give you objectives on your screen you are incapable of having fun. I think the main audience of this game is somewhat like the main audience of sandbox games: people who can take a huge sprawling game world where things are always going on around them and can make their own fun with it.

Ryoki Hokishami.2756:

Are you kidding me? having complete control of pets, including switching to live pets makes it incredible in all modes. Many times in 1v1s if the other player is at 10-15% health, i can finish them off with my pet. Then it becomes a downed fight, which I have never lost on my ranger. And don’t forget the CC you can switch to, like the wolf fear.

Right but examine what you’re saying here. You’re saying that rangers have to use their pet skills and even choose their pets, which are fundamentally vital to playing a ranger, just to have downed abilities that come close to everyone else’s. That illustrates just how weak it truly is. I should not have to sacrifice one or both of my two pet slots (which rangers need to make full use of to be effective in combat) to not be completely defenseless while downed. If anything, take away pet control while downed and give me a balanced set of downed skills that are on par with every other class.

And naming very specific circumstances in which the ranger’s downed skills work effectively is also not very substantial. Yeah, in a circumstance when you’re fighting one-on-one against an enemy who has exhausted all of their skills and is a few hits from downing themselves, ranger excels, woopee. Meanwhile every other class can defend themselves from multiple enemies, and evade execution in some way, without sacrificing a major part of their combat effectiveness and regardless of enemy HP.

One thing that I’ve noticed newbies, and even a lot of familiar players, seem to be not fully grasping is the downed state. Something a lot of us who have been following the game since development stage take completely for granted.

The first major point I’d like to raise is that the downed state is not “dead.” If you are downed you are not dead in any sense of the word. If you are being downed a lot but rallying you are not “dying a lot.” There seems to be some confusion here. Actually, it’s quite the opposite — sometimes, allowing your character to be downed is in your best interest, for several reasons, which I’ll touch on here.

The first reason is because rallying from the downed state can actually leave you with more HP than you had before you were downed. If you’re running around, hiding, and dodging like mad because you only have 5% HP, don’t worry about it — just fight as fiercely as you can and then allow your character to be downed. If you can rally, you’ll get back on your feet with a significantly higher HP and can continue fighting.

The second reason is that being downed gives you a whole new set of skills. Some classes have such good downed skills that in many circumstances you have a better chance of survival being downed so that you can use them; for instance mesmers and thieves can teleport and stealth while downed, elementalists can become invincible for a good few seconds and move freely back to safety, warriors can even get right back up at the press of a button. For this reason being downed can actually be beneficial to your survival.

Another big reason is timing, and here I’ll touch on an important and oft-overlooked mechanic. If you are fighting three enemies, as an example, and two are at high HP with one being at 10% HP, if you are having trouble staying on top of the fight, just allow your character to be downed. In the downed state, you now have a good ten seconds (depending) to finish off that first enemy, and when you do, you will be rallied with a good bit of HP for killing an enemy while downed. Now compare that to finishing off the first enemy, then being downed, and now you have two enemies at full HP and no hope of taking one out before you die. A good player will always consider timing their downed state in this way and it will become habit once you start using the downed state to your advantage.

Which brings me to my final, and most fundamental and important point. One thing I’ve been downright frustrated about for the past few months is how few players seem to even be aware that a downed player will rally instantly if they kill an enemy from the downed state. WvW and PvE are just full of people who sit there spamming Bandage over and over while enemies die all around them. In dungeons, as a high DPS character, rather than running in gonzo and trying to revive a downed team mate, I will target an enemy right next to them and finish them off quickly and efficiently. Recently I’ve been frustrated to find that more often than not, the person is not even trying to rally themselves, they’re just sitting there spamming skill #4 and waiting for someone to come over and heal them. Do not sell yourself short — pay attention to the way the fight is going in your immediate area, and target a dying enemy. If you have damaged an enemy and that enemy dies while you’re downed, even if another player lands the killing blow, you will instantly be rallied back onto your feet to continue fighting. This is the way an effective player handles the downed state more often than any other option.

Star Ace.5207:

Elricht Kaltwind.8796:

My vote goes to ranger. It’s my main and it’s just abysmal when you’re downed. It’s got to be the only class besides warrior that has absolutely no way to defend from the downed state. The #2 skill is like a one-second stun that hits one enemy, and that’s it. Beyond that your only hope is to wait the — what is it, five seconds? — for your #3 pet heal skill to charge. And once it does, so what? You’re still downed and you can still be executed, and your pet can also die while it’s healing you. Utterly useless in all but the lowest-level PvE.

But then if you compare to warriors, yes you have very similar downed skills, except your #3 lets you stand back up and continue fighting, AND once an enemy is killed you have I believe a 50% chance (untraited) to rally. So you’re extending the frame of time that you can be rallied by an enemy death dramatically, you’re not vulnerable to executions, you do full damage because you’re not using crappy downed skills to fight, and you’re certainly not relying on a defenseless pet to heal you. I mean where is the balance there?

Ranger’s #2 downed skill should give stealth or something, and I’d be content. If you could have a few seconds of immunity to execution and most attack skills, it would be a lot more viable to wait for your #3 skill to revive you in combat situations. It would be more comparable to the effectiveness of most other classes’ downed skills.

Deleven.7508:

…with the ranger being a little better because they have access to their pets while downed.

lol, but what you’re referring to as an upside is actually a downside. The damage of ranger skills is balanced with pet damage in mind already, so a ranger is not more effective when their pet is up, it’s just less effective when their pet is down. So while you’re downed if your pet dies, you just do less damage than everyone else does. That’s not an upside.

I can confirm the opposite experience-Rangers indeed have the best downed mode for PvE. Bleeds, interrupts, and a very good chance at survival with your pet reviving you. VERY GOOD chance at coming back unless ridiculously mobbed, including boss battles. You can switch your pet while downed, so just switch to your tankier pet so that it can revive you without dying. Having played all other Professions, this downed mode is superior to both Elementalist Thief, or Mesmer for PvE, simply because barring special circumstances, often the enemies will still chase you-the pet will revive you easily even under heavy fire at times.

Well okay, in PvE being downed as a ranger is pretty choice, if we were talking about just PvE I would definitely agree. Top five. But where it actually matters, in PvP and WvW, it is abysmal. Anywhere you rely on being able to defend from enemy execution and sustaining yourself until an ally kills off an enemy you’ve tagged it could really not be worse. In PvE, enemies do not execute you and they are not smart enough to target your pet or put you in a blind AoE field, and that’s the only reason it works.

SemiProBBQ.8946:

Elricht Kaltwind.8796:

My vote goes to ranger. It’s my main and it’s just abysmal when you’re downed. It’s got to be the only class besides warrior that has absolutely no way to defend from the downed state. The #2 skill is like a one-second stun that hits one enemy, and that’s it. Beyond that your only hope is to wait the — what is it, five seconds? — for your #3 pet heal skill to charge. And once it does, so what? You’re still downed and you can still be executed, and your pet can also die while it’s healing you. Utterly useless in all but the lowest-level PvE.

Ranger is my main and we have probably the most OP of all downed states(assuming your enemy has no stability). You get downed #2 daze > swap to wolf > wolf uses kd on enemy while you’re healing > after kd f2 for aoe fear > #3 for pet heals(by this time your #2 daze is back up for another stun) > get rezzed by your pet and go down again because you play ranger(pve specific)

As someone who has a level 80 of every class in the game I just don’t understand how anyone can think ranger’s downed state is anywhere close to “OP.” Arguing that rangers can have downed abilities that are half as good as everyone else’s if you count pets’ F2 skills is clearly silly, every other class can defend themselves without having to compromise their builds. In PvP and WvW, more than half the time, you’re being executed by either some heavy who has Stability up constantly, or a thief who is stealthed, or you’re in a blind AoE, so your #2 skill is almost completely redundant. Other classes get AoE fields that push back enemies or some kind of evasive ability; ranger gets a medium-range stun that can only hit one targeted enemy and can be countered by half the skills in the game.

Charak.9761:

I hope the ranger one gets fixed…infinite pet healing is broken in spvp

Try playing one. The pet can simply be killed while it’s healing, and then there’s a large cooldown before they can call on it again — much longer than you will ever need to finish executing said ranger considering they have no method of defending themselves whatsoever in the meantime.

Stars.2179:

It’s not the Charrs that stop cape from being released. It’s the cape physics especially when swimming underwater for all races….

What you mean like all the other pieces of armour with cloth physics that are in the game?

I’m seriously puzzled re: what Anet has planned for capes exactly. I mean let’s examine the facts here:

1. Capes were the only back item in Guild Wars 1 and were a total icon of the franchise
2. Absolutely everyone wore capes in Guild Wars 1 and loved them
3. Capes were the best way to show off your guild
4. Everyone in Guild Wars 2 really, really wants capes
5. Every back item imagine able now exists in the game except capes. It’s like Anet is deliberately avoiding capes specifically. Why?

Sure, I like a gal in a one-piece as much as the next fella.

My vote goes to ranger. It’s my main and it’s just abysmal when you’re downed. It’s got to be the only class besides warrior that has absolutely no way to defend from the downed state. The #2 skill is like a one-second stun that hits one enemy, and that’s it. Beyond that your only hope is to wait the — what is it, five seconds? — for your #3 pet heal skill to charge. And once it does, so what? You’re still downed and you can still be executed, and your pet can also die while it’s healing you. Utterly useless in all but the lowest-level PvE.

But then if you compare to warriors, yes you have very similar downed skills, except your #3 lets you stand back up and continue fighting, AND once an enemy is killed you have I believe a 50% chance (untraited) to rally. So you’re extending the frame of time that you can be rallied by an enemy death dramatically, you’re not vulnerable to executions, you do full damage because you’re not using crappy downed skills to fight, and you’re certainly not relying on a defenseless pet to heal you. I mean where is the balance there?

Ranger’s #2 downed skill should give stealth or something, and I’d be content. If you could have a few seconds of immunity to execution and most attack skills, it would be a lot more viable to wait for your #3 skill to revive you in combat situations. It would be more comparable to the effectiveness of most other classes’ downed skills.

Deleven.7508:

…with the ranger being a little better because they have access to their pets while downed.

lol, but what you’re referring to as an upside is actually a downside. The damage of ranger skills is balanced with pet damage in mind already, so a ranger is not more effective when their pet is up, it’s just less effective when their pet is down. So while you’re downed if your pet dies, you just do less damage than everyone else does. That’s not an upside.

Windwalker.2047:

Elricht Kaltwind.8796:

Windwalker.2047:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Windwalker.2047:

Vilkatis.6495:

Rata Sum ,anyone heard of it?

Do tell me where the mystic forge is located in that midget-populated town?

>implying the mystic forge isn’t really close to the asura gates in Vigil Keep
>implying it takes longer than 1 minute to port to Rata Sum
>implying Lion’s Arch is the only city in the game

I can keep going if you want.

It does take more than 1 min esp for people without SSD-s.
Lion’s Arch is(was) the only city in the game with every service in it-the only way to get that now is to use the gemstore.
Still waiting for that location.

If it takes more than one minute to load one of the lower areas of Rata Sum you do not meet the minimum requirements for this game and therefore really can’t complain, sorry. I don’t have a solid-state drive but it takes 10 seconds or less to load.

I don’t even go to Rata Sum for crafting, I actually go to Claypool, it’s nice and quiet, everything is laid out close together and simple, how can you go wrong? In fact I’ve been going there to do my crafting since the very beginning, so I was not impacted by this change in the slightest.

The pass to the Captain’s airship is really nothing more than a premium. We don’t pay subscription fees to play this game, so it’s sort of just understood that things like this are there to give players the choice to show their support for Anet and actually receive something to show for it. Don’t whine about it. You’re the one who got into a game that was advertised as having an ever-changing world where things might come and go all the time, it makes little sense to complain when it does.

The argument that you’re somehow “forced” to pay $12.50 if you want to do crafting obviously does not hold up to basic scrutiny. You can pay 1-2 silver for that by warping to Claypool or Rata Sum, period. It also makes no sense to bring loading times into the equation because of the simple fact that Lion’s Arch used to take literally five to ten times longer to load than any other place in the game, so why didn’t it bother you then?

FIND ME AN AREA THAT HAS ALL THE SERVICES IN THE GAME THAT CAN BE ACCESSED WITHOUT THE GEM STORE-LIKE THE ONE WE HAD LAST WEEK AND NOT ANYMORE DUE TO A BUNCH OF SUIT-WEARING GREEDY GREMLINS THAT YOU PROBABLY WORK FOR.
Yes the caps were needed,I was yelling.

Why would I need to do that? All the services in the game are available between Vigil Keep and Rata Sum for free. For someone whose computer meets the recommended specs the travel time from the mystic forge in Vigil Keep to the crafting tables in Rata Sum is barely any longer than the time it took to run between the two points in Lion’s Arch. Does that help?

Hahaha, this is an interesting one, that’s for sure.. Some of them actually do look better, like the charr version. I’m guessing it was to fix some kind of clipping error or something.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

This shouldn’t be surprising to anyone, they’ve done it before and they’ll keep doing it more and more because as you can see people love being taken advantage of.

This is why you should always play games with a sub if you can. They don’t charge you for convenience, they put it right in the game. They don’t charge you for new armor, they put it right in the game. Content is permanent in sub games because you pay a sub for it.

But your logic is flawed because if you willingly paid money for every new convenience / armour set on the Guild Wars 2 gem store, it would still be significantly cheaper than paying a subscription in a sub-based MMO. And then there’s the obvious factor that no one realistically is going to want to buy every new convenience and armour set that comes along, but even if they did, it would still be cheaper. So actually your complaint boils down to “I hate paying money for things in this game, I wish I could pay significantly more just to play the game and get those things for free.” It’s flawed reasoning like this that the multi-billion dollar scams that are sub-based MMOs survive on.

You get expansions because they don’t need to waste all their development making cash grabs because you pay a steady fee. P2P games will always be better than F2P games.

On the other hand, the fact that players are already paying sub fees regardless of the quality of new content means that there is absolutely nothing to assure the quality of that content. Just look at what WoW became for this exact reason — “ah the players are already stuck in this $15-a-month program we lured them into, not like we have any motivation to produce good content because they’re effectively paying for it either way.”

Windwalker.2047:

First they came for the mining picks, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a mining pick.

Then they came for the cultural armor, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a cultural armor.

Then they came for the crafting stations, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a crafting station.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

One does not simply pull a Godwin on the fifth post in.

honeyjars.6590:

So, story wise, why would citizens give you one of their special family heirlooms? And why would you then turn it in to the lost-and-found when you already know they gave it away and wouldn’t be looking for it?

I get that you want more heirlooms, but your suggestion doesn’t make much sense in terms of the story.

That’s a very good point. I want to see another way to get these pesky things myself, but it would have to make sense. If you ask me they should just drop from the normal bags, maybe a 1-in-50 drop, it would really help solve both problems. I don’t see how it doesn’t make sense that you would find looted heirlooms on the corpses of enemies considering many of them are, you know.. pirates.

Windwalker.2047:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Windwalker.2047:

Vilkatis.6495:

Rata Sum ,anyone heard of it?

Do tell me where the mystic forge is located in that midget-populated town?

>implying the mystic forge isn’t really close to the asura gates in Vigil Keep
>implying it takes longer than 1 minute to port to Rata Sum
>implying Lion’s Arch is the only city in the game

I can keep going if you want.

It does take more than 1 min esp for people without SSD-s.
Lion’s Arch is(was) the only city in the game with every service in it-the only way to get that now is to use the gemstore.
Still waiting for that location.

If it takes more than one minute to load one of the lower areas of Rata Sum you do not meet the minimum requirements for this game and therefore really can’t complain, sorry. I don’t have a solid-state drive but it takes 10 seconds or less to load.

I don’t even go to Rata Sum for crafting, I actually go to Claypool, it’s nice and quiet, everything is laid out close together and simple, how can you go wrong? In fact I’ve been going there to do my crafting since the very beginning, so I was not impacted by this change in the slightest.

The pass to the Captain’s airship is really nothing more than a premium. We don’t pay subscription fees to play this game, so it’s sort of just understood that things like this are there to give players the choice to show their support for Anet and actually receive something to show for it. Don’t whine about it. You’re the one who got into a game that was advertised as having an ever-changing world where things might come and go all the time, it makes little sense to complain when it does.

The argument that you’re somehow “forced” to pay $12.50 if you want to do crafting obviously does not hold up to basic scrutiny. You can pay 1-2 silver for that by warping to Claypool or Rata Sum, period. It also makes no sense to bring loading times into the equation because of the simple fact that Lion’s Arch used to take literally five to ten times longer to load than any other place in the game, so why didn’t it bother you then?

skullmount.1758:

Delvoire.8930:

Well… it’s a good thing they held off the release of the patch for 5+ hours to get all the kinks worked out…………

I wouldn’t really complain. At least it has less problems than Edge of the Mist did.
Aetherblade balance might have a problem though, just about all of them are vets

I hear that… I’m standing at 1200 range from the closest Aetherblade and I’m just dropping dead with no visual cue. Combat log says something about lightning-something-or-other. Really growing weary of the Aetherblade events on my glass cannon ranger with the attacks that can’t be avoided, lol.

I really like how Anet officially confirmed that the chests were coming back yet the thread still continues on for more than half a full page with complaining.

Right, because the price of silk is never gonna go down or anything.

Palador.2170:

At the risk of being coldhearted, I have to ask: Why should he?

Your post basically illustrates why. Someone who is deserving of a leadership position should care about the common good of the people who entrust him. This shows that he cares more about himself than the good of the people of Lion’s Arch and that makes him a terrible potential leader. A good leader is always someone who genuinely cares about the people, whether he is in a position of leadership over them, or he isn’t.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Keil is just your typical democrat, spend other people’s money to make yourself look good!

Kiel is the one who’s out there killing the threats to our nations. Evon puts business above the freedom and welfare of the people. I don’t see how you could really compare Kiel to a typical American democrat.

That moment when you write a thousand-word essay based on total misinformation.

I think that’s a little silly. The Living Story has had all kinds of different types of content, and even this specific chapter of the living story offers tons of stuff besides some non-mandatory grind. But every time there are events that people enjoy farming (which is actually a very convenient opportunity to make some extra money that we should be thankful for) there are people who whine about “omg anet y r u make so much zerg fest / grind fest!!!!!11”

panzer.6034:

In Darwinian evolution, mutations cause individuals to display new traits and if they are favorable they get passed on. If there is a population of dark skinned norns, it is easily and realistically attributed to a genetic mutation which has been passed on in a certain bloodline or area.

Right, in a certain bloodline or area, which is exactly the same conclusion that I reached in the first place. That’s what’s at the core of the matter: where did these norn come from, literally?

Dustfinger.9510:

It can definitely be one of them. The black skin of the polar bear is what started your ridiculousness when you said it was an ‘exception’. You then said they didn’t need it because they were totally immune. That was wrong. they are not. So it can be a benefit without being the only thing they have.

That is an exception to the matter because they have fur — and that fur is white. It is not even comparable. It can also not be a benefit without being the only thing they have, because if it was, black-skinned norn would be better able to survive. You can’t argue that black skin is a survival benefit but norn without that benefit are equally able to survive, that’s a direct contradiction. Given that they are the same species it is obviously impossible that two or more completely different biologies could be observed within the norn population.

What makes it impossible?

The very basic nature of adaptation. As Panzer agrees, the only way it’s possible to have two dramatic, stark differences in breeds within a species is geographical or physical isolation. Otherwise the entire concept of adaptation falls apart, and it’s been pretty much universally recognised for the past thousand plus years so I don’t think the fault lies there.

And recessive traits still get passed on. Over multiple generations.

They can, or they can’t, it depends how recessive they are. Something like blue eyes for instance is a trait that might resurface if the allele becomes dominant enough again in future generations, but it has pretty much zero percent chance of manifesting if paired with full dominant alleles, ie African. To what end are you arguing here?

Unless charcoal black parents had those charcoal black children. Go figure.

Go figure.

oh, that’s why? You said their dark coloration was an exception.

It is an exception to this case, yes.

You said hotter environments. that was your whole point.

It was never my “whole point,” it was evidence for my point. It still is — there is no example of charcoal-black skin being an arctic survival trait. In humans it only exists as a survival trait in hot environments. Walruses do not rely on black skin to survive, as illustrated by the fact that they lose it as they grow older.

Okay….. so we are agreed. dark skin can be a benefit without needing to be the end all be all of cold weather fighting. Glad we had to go through all of that to get here.

We didn’t actually get anywhere. My question still goes unanswered, all that we’ve agreed on is something that doesn’t even directly impact the core of the matter.

I don’t need to be a walrus expert to know when you are lying to prove a flawed point. the picture spoke for itself. Clearly you’ll say what ever you need to in order to …. not be wrong about something? (not really sure what your goal is here.) Your argument keeps changing with the new information.

Uh, lying? I was mistaken, and for that matter so were you, so don’t be a kitten about it. And there is absolutely no reason I would lie about Walruses gaining dark skin as they grew older because that does nothing to help my argument in any way. The opposite does help my argument, and the opposite is what’s actually accurate, as you can verify for yourself by looking it up on the internet (Wikipedia, etc).

The picture speaks for itself but it proves nothing. All it portrays is two young walruses, and young walruses have black skin, there is nothing consequential about that in the slightest. My argument has not changed with new information, in fact it has not changed at all ever — all that happened is that new information supported my position, which tends to happen when a position is correct.

Astralporing.1957:

Elricht Kaltwind.8796:

The destruction of Lion’s Arch wouldn’t impact the presence of Lion Guards;

It’s like saying the destruction of USA would not impact their oversea bases.

Lionguards are funded and supported by LA. The money and resources for that come from the trade and likely surrounding areas under LA protection (which not only would disappear – the whole area would turn into a danger zone overnight). Once the city is gone, not only the supply routes will get cut, but the money and supply itself will disappear. Yeah, some of the keeps may manage to hold on for a while, but longterm that will not last. Even if some of the keeps would remain staffed, they could only do so by finding a different patron (…Scarlet? She doesn’t seem to have any resource problems) or by going completely rogue (thus creating another pirate haven).

But the majority of people in Tyria also seem to have a sense of duty, honour and loyalty, so the assertion that they couldn’t continue to exist without a paycheque is not really a strong position.

Long-term, fine, it would definitely impact things. But we’re talking about very short-term, like as in, the next two weeks. We have no idea what changes will come beyond that, the next chapter of the living story could deal with that very matter, so we can only speculate what would happen to the Lion Guard long-term once we know what’s going to happen next.

roseria.7695:

Are you always like this or is it just a Tuesday thing ?

What are you suggesting, that I’m a kittenwad jerk?

…You’re right. Oh by Grenth you’re right :’(

Dustfinger.9510:

They don’t need to be more or less resistant to it. Do you remember your points anymore?

What are you even talking about? You’re the one arguing that black skin can be beneficial to survival in an arctic climate. If that is the explanation for black-skinned norn then prove that black-skinned norn are better able to survive. If not then that is not a valid explanation and it is not relevant.

You actually DID argue that. But let’s go with your new argument. As I already stated. the mutation for different skin color can develop and propogate while in that arctic environment or it could have happened before all norn went into the mountains.

It is impossible for some specimens of the species to adapt charcoal-black skin alongside specimens that still retain paper-white skin. One mutation could be explained, thousands could not.

the fact that you are referring to the term “recessive” proves the possibility. RL proves that light parents can have darker children as long as they carry the gene for darker skin. recessive genes get passed on. that’s the entire point of the term ‘recessive’.

lol, no. “Recessive” means that the allele recedes against “dominant” alleles, ie, it is overpowered by the allele that is more basic to the species or the breed.

Yes, light parents can have darker children as long as they carry the gene somewhere; but not charcoal-black children, that’s preposterous.

So the point is still proven that darker skin is not antithesis to an arctic environment. At least you aren’t continuing that ridiculous argument.

I’m not sure why you’re even arguing that it is. Quote me anywhere saying that black skin (stop using the term “darker,” never was the argument about the validity of “darker” norn existing, everyone can accept that “darker” norn can logically exist) is “antithesis” to survival in an arctic environment. In humans having charcoal-black skin is a negative trait in arctic environments; that’s why I said it’s irrelevant to bring polar bears into the discussion, because we’re talking about a species that does not have fur.

Oh, that’s right. This is a NEW argument. 3 posts up. You keep ignoring the possibility that dark skin in norn developed independently. But I’ll show an example of dark and light in the animal kingdom.

lmao, my argument from the very beginning has been that the only way it’s anthropologically possible for black-skinned norn to exist if they developed independently, which would require geographical isolation, ie in Elona. You’re the one bringing all these other factors into play to distract from the obvious reason in my assertion.

I’m still waiting on that example as all I see is a photo of two black-ish walruses.

You seem to lean on illogical extremes. Having a benefit doesn’t mean you have complete immunity. benefits can vary from large benefit to small benefit.

Right, having a benefit doesn’t mean you have complete immunity. But it does mean you have a benefit, ie better capability to survive in your environment. You’ve just rephrased exactly what I said.

This proves you wrong. But it’s still beside the point because it was speaking directly to the flawed assertion that you kept arguing against dark skin in arctic environments.

You’re actually correct here, I was mistaken in my assertion that walruses are born light and turn dark with age. It’s actually the exact opposite, it’s seals that are the other way around. So this is actually a photograph of two young walruses. However you didn’t catch my error so I see you’re no more familiar with the subject of Walruses than I am.

roseria.7695:

Morrigan.2809:

roseria.7695:

Another fail by anet way to cheat us eu players … Again …. like allways…. does every single game maker hate eu ?!

(This post it to show how stupid you guys look mkay)

so who wants some cheese with their whine ?

I am from EU and I am having cheese with my wine and olives right now, tomorrow is fine by me.
It is almost midnight :p

Give them time people

you clearly dont see the joke .. so imma just laugh and think what a bookah..

Might I suggest that perhaps you don’t see his joke?

Farzo.8410:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgv7U3GYlDY

lol one of my favourite movies. “By Ogden’s hammer” was always a big hit for me thusly.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Flame Of The Titan.3649:

If Evon had won over Kiel, would the outcome of this patch have been different?

Discuss!

Indeed. Lion’s Arch would have been saved due to Evon’s strong leadership abilities. The people of Tyria voted for Kiel, and now this happens.

Then I am doubly glad Kiel won

One or more of the hearts in Kessex Hills have been changed to be based around the fallen Nightmare Tower instead of what they previously were, and the events in the area have been changed / added across the board. Most players may not have noticed the changes to the hearts yet because of already having completed them long ago. Just illustrates that Anet is perfectly capable and willing to change old content around new changes to the world.

The destruction of Lion’s Arch wouldn’t impact the presence of Lion Guards; their work would only become more important, with forays into the ruined city becoming their daily reality. Some universal changes to Lion Guard outposts are entirely possible — look at how ANet changed the landscape with the Nightmare blossom (or whatever they’re called) events.

Many of the events involving Lion’s Arch (ie, caravans etc) could so easily be modified to military caravans instead of generic goods / merchants. Others could simply be removed; it’s not like they’d be missed, with all the new events taking place in the region anyway.

It doesn’t seem like it would be unrealistic to expect these changes. They’re not really as monumental as it seems.

Dustfinger.9510:

it’s not irrelevant at all. Your reasoning hinges that because they are immune then they won’t have any other defenses. They aren’t immune. So they can have any number of adaptations to help with the issue.

lol, no, it is irrelevant. Unless black-skinned norn are more or less resistant to cold than the rest, it is irrelevant. And we can say almost certainly that they are not.

Walrus can also be black. But since any black outer covering on arctic animals proves that black skin isn’t antithesis to arctic environments, it is still relevant because it proves a precedence that you are arguing against. Also, dark norn can where white fur clothing and get both advantages. Now you have no leg to stand on.

But walruses can’t be white (except for mutants), so that’s also not a good example. I am not arguing that a species can not develop dark skin in an arctic environment, I am arguing that you can’t have both in the same population. Some very, very basic anthropology. What needs to be explained here is how a species all living and developing in the same conditions can develop with both paper-white skin, and charcoal-black skin. Clearly that’s impossible, so ultimately either a massive number of norn have been living in Elona for a long period of time and recently flooded back to continental Tyria, or I see no way that this makes sense.

Wrong. neutral mutations that don’t provide an advantage or a disadvantage also get passed along. But we see in the animal world that dark coloration is a benefit in arctic climates.

We can easily observe that that isn’t true just by looking at someone who is mixed-race. If an allele is singled out then it is extremely recessive and will not be passed down, it will simply be drowned out by the more basic traits.

well the term “dark skin” is a relative term dependant on any skin that is not as dark. So the fact that eskimos are darker than ancient Germanic peoples proves that light skin isn’t the “norm” for arctic climates.

Sure, but once again you have to look at two genetically different peoples that have been geographically isolated from each other since the beginning of human history to find an example.

Your entire argument hinges on the idea that light skin is the standard setting for cold environments. it isn’t.

No it doesn’t, my argument hinges on the idea that it is anthropologically impossible to find black-skinned and white-skinned people developing in the same geographical population. You yourself have confirmed this with your Germanics versus Eskimos comparison.

There was a white couple a decade ago that got caught in a blizzard. when they were rescued they both had pieces amputated. What’s you point here?

That has nothing to do with anything. No matter how resistant to cold someone is they can still be damaged by frostbite, that is irrelevant to my example, which illustrates the fact that in humans black skin is not beneficial to survival in arctic conditions.

edit: Light walrus. Dark walrus. Notice how both colorations exist. Because a cold environment is not antithesis to dark coloring.

lol, but there is no “light walrus,” walruses are simply born with light skin and it grows brown from exposure as they age. Not genetic differences in skin colour within the same populations. I am not arguing that dark skin is always necessarily a negative trait in arctic survival but there is no comparable example that exists for norn (or humans) benefiting from charcoal-black skin in an arctic environment. All examples of arctic people (or walruses, if you insist) surviving just fine in arctic environments are not doing so because they have dark skin, they have dark skin because of exposure to the sun. And at any rate, none of them are born with charcoal-black skin, they’re just tanned and weathered. So I don’t see what any of it has to do with the core of the matter.

Dustfinger.9510:

They are not totally resistant to cold. There is a quest to kill beasts in order to make a blanket for a cold norn. That tells us that they are more resistant to it but not totally resistant.

But that’s irrelevant, the point still stands that they have a genetic high resistance to cold.

I also think you misunderstand what Zaxeres also said. he said that cold environments are not antithesis to dark skin. What I said is that they could have either developed that dark skin while in the cold environment as RL animals have or they could have got it before isolating themselves to the freezing mountaintops when they might have been spread throughout Tyria. Either one is a valid possibility.

Well first of all let’s just acknowledge the fact that animals are exceptions because they have fur. Norn do not have fur, so the skin colour of polar bears beneath their fur is not at all relevant to norn.

Any trait that isn’t a hinderance doesn’t just “phase out”. You misunderstand how evolution works. It has no end goal. It isn’t a thinking concept with a plan. All mutations that don’t casue the death of the creature before it can mate will be passed on in some degree or another. the only way that nayure has of phasing out a mutation is through the death of the ‘mutant’ before it can pass on those genes. So the fact that there are both dark and light norn indicates that dark skin isn’t a detrimental gene. This is proven by RL arctic peoples as well as RL arctic animals.

Um, I don’t misunderstand anything. If a mutation is not beneficial then that creature does not have a survival advantage and does not become a select mate, so the mutation does not become dominant. If a person is born with 11 fingers his descendants are not going to have 11 fingers, unless he were to mate with another 11-fingered person.

Where is this proven by RL arctic peoples? In RL, dark-skinned people have all kinds of survivability problems in arctic climates (there was a story a few years ago about an African runner whose foot had to be amputated after spending a few hours at a running event in Alaska). Eskimos, which you mentioned, don’t have dark skin; they have a brown / yellow tone because of the genetic fact that they have more subcutaneous fat, not a skin colour. This subcutaneous fat helps them survive in arctic climates, and I would accept easily that this could also be one way norn survive. So what RL example of dark skin (without fur) being effective for survival in arctic climates are you alluding to?

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Elricht Kaltwind.8796:

Uh, I assume you’re referring to Chlore Island?

No, they mean Claw Island.
Do you perhaps play the game in a different language?

I played it in whatever language Trahearne speaks.

Astralporing.1957:

insaneshadow.1654:

Elricht Kaltwind.8796:

Shpongle.6025:

but…but… muh map chat ; __ ;

One of the primary reasons I can’t wait for Lion’s Arch to be reduced to rubble.

I can’t even follow the map chat half the time anyway, there’s always one of the same four or five attention-kittens spamming emotes a hundred times in a row next to the bank. I could name them by name at this point. Or maybe this is just a Borlis Pass issue.

Raze the place, Anet! The only thing better than standing amidst the rubble of that derelict haven for crime and degeneracy would be slaughtering some baddies over it.

Oh god, this. It’s not just a Borlis Pass issue, I’m on Yak’s Bend and we have a handful of players that do that. Or they just talk about nonsense and then get annoyed at other people for talking nonsense.

You know, of course, that map chat is tied to people, not to the area, right? It’s not going to disappear, all those people will just move to a new gathering spot. Anyone who thinks that destroying LA will improve the community is really naive.

But if capital cities are the new gathering spots then there’s only a one-in-five chance that they’ll gather in mine.

In Guild Wars 1 there were a ton of different outposts that filled the role of “gathering spots.” There was Lion’s Arch, Ascalon city, Piken Square, Kaineng city, Shing Jea, Kamadan, Eye of the North, and those were just the biggest ones. I confess I did not at all like the communities in some of those places, which is why I didn’t hang out there. So if anything, I don’t really see how spreading out the community to the different capitals wouldn’t improve the community.

All that’s fine, but I don’t think it at all answers the anthropological question of why black-skinned norn exist. We know that they are totally resistant to cold, which must mean that all norn were geographically isolated to the Shiverpeaks until recently, otherwise their species would not have adopted this universal trait. Your suggestion that norn might have black skin to protect them from cold is also inconsistent because otherwise all norn would have dark skin; we can say with certainty that dark skin isn’t what protects them from cold, or only black-skinned norn would have that trait, which is of course preposterous.

I’m also not at all satisfied by simply shrugging it off as “we don’t know enough about norn biology to say why they might have black skin.” We can easily assume that the very simple process of adaptation applies to them the way it applies to every other living creature.

You suggest that adaptation doesn’t “only pass on what is absolutely needed for survival,” but in this case that’s not true. Black skin caused by some random mutation would not be a trait that would be passed down because it wouldn’t offer any survival benefit and so would simply phase out like any other benign but useless trait — unless in a desert environment. So then the question is, does any lore exist to support the possibility of norn existing for many centuries in Elona?

Zaxares.5419:

Living in the arctic doesn’t preclude black skin, by the way. A little known fact: polar bears actually have black skin. This lets them soak up as much heat from the sun as possible to help keep them warm. Their fur, on the other hand, is white so as to help camouflage them on the ice while hunting.

While that is a good example of an exception, norn also don’t feel cold, so they’ve already adapted to it in other ways and therefore wouldn’t need dark skin to help them absorb sunlight.

That said, I do agree it’s kind of weird that there are now darker skinned Norn when we didn’t see a single one in GW1, but I’m willing to chalk that up to “technical reasons”, same way we never saw any female Charr in GW1.

That was also for lore reasons — Charr women had no rights beyond basically subservience back then in Charr society, they definitely couldn’t fight. As far as I’ve heard there is absolutely no explanation in lore for why there are black-skinned norn or how this anthropologically came about in the past two centuries.

To say that we “just didn’t see them,” well it should just go without saying that that is an extremely poor explanation. A large fraction of the norn in the game now have black skin but yet two hundred years ago there was not one to be found anywhere, a bit too much to be a “coincidence.”

It’s true, if L.A is not reduced to rubble I will be disappointed. But then, I’m disappointed every time I log on to see it’s still there.

Tirop.6203:

moon dancer.4712:

um…. and your here cuz?

“CUZ”… he just want to? kitten it’s not that hard.

Um, it’s a bit weird for someone who doesn’t care in the slightest about a game to go onto the game’s forums, log on, and browse through posts, commenting that they don’t care about the game.

Dustfinger.9510:

Norn are not big humans. They are a whole other species. They may have different genes than humans that allow them to adapt to climate in only a generation or two the way hogs do. So if the norn already carry the gene for a myriad of skin color then their environment may bring it out in their children or grand children.

In nature we see even more drastic physical changes. When a domesticated pig gets in the wild it starts growing course hair. In two generations it’s snout and legs get longer. This is wholly independent of the lean frame that comes from a changed diet. Also, a feral hogs tail is long and strait. http://www.ehow.com/info_8603818_difference-wild-pigs-farm-pigs.html

Right, but those things directly improve the hog’s ability to survive in those environments. Sprouting charcoal-black skin just because you’re living in a moderately warm climate does not help survival. We can easily rule out the possibility of all black norn having been born in Elona, so what’s the hottest environment they could have originated from — Brisban Wildlands? A place where I can’t recall seeing a single native norn NPC.

In the books, Magnus is described as dark, but only dark relative to other norn; we can see in the game itself that he’s basically just tanned, from being weathered on the open seas for most of his life.

Faranox.4217:

Elricht Kaltwind.8796:

Honestly my build would be half as effective without Wolf Form there as backup.

Sounds pretty neat, got a link for it we could check out?

Sorry, a link for what exactly?

Astralporing.1957:

Sirendor.1394:

A.

Loading screens seem reason enough. Though another is arrogant players with shinies.

Yes, because destroying LA will cause those two to disappear, instead of moving to the next social hub.

Well in my ideal scenario, players would be congregating across the five capital cities, which would eliminate those problems. Additionally, each city would maintain its own sort of “flavour” depending on how the community on your server adopts each city as “home.”

Shpongle.6025:

but…but… muh map chat ; __ ;

One of the primary reasons I can’t wait for Lion’s Arch to be reduced to rubble.

I can’t even follow the map chat half the time anyway, there’s always one of the same four or five attention-kittens spamming emotes a hundred times in a row next to the bank. I could name them by name at this point. Or maybe this is just a Borlis Pass issue.

Raze the place, Anet! The only thing better than standing amidst the rubble of that derelict haven for crime and degeneracy would be slaughtering some baddies over it.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Group achievement is still achievement.

I don’t think that they could build Hoelbrak if everyone was trying to do it their own way.

Yes but norn have no need for armies. We are norn.

Uh, I assume you’re referring to Chlore Island?

But what you’re saying is not accurate, because of level-scaling. When you go back to that level 2 area, the doe there is only marginally less of a threat than the doe in the level 50 area. So if you’re dying to a level 50 doe (not sure how that’s even possible considering they’re less dangerous than just about any enemy of the same level) you’d die to the level 2 doe almost as easily.

In other words, all the does are the same effective level. They are all the same level as you, no matter what zone you’re in.

And furthermore, if a level 50 charr warrior is dying to any doe in the game then that “LOL” is very much deserved. Even a lone bandit of the same level can kill a doe.

I’m actually a little surprised that no one so far has mentioned Ascalon, outside of a joke. Have we all forgotten what happened to Ascalon city in the first place?

Once upon a time, Ascalon city and the surrounding area was a beautiful, idyllic place where it felt like nothing worse than an enraged bull or an inconveniently-located bee hive could ever disrupt the way of life that humans enjoyed within its walls. And then it was cataclysmically destroyed — permanently.

I’m sure all of us who were around to see that have never forgotten how it felt. I’m sure all of us still feel those feels every time we traipse through the ruins of the city, which still has not been rebuilt I might add, and never will be.

That event was known as The Searing. For many of us who have been around for a long time, that event was central, even focal, to our fascination with Guild Wars and its lore. Perhaps it is bold of me to suggest that what we need is another Searing. Not literally of course — just an event of that scale, an event that permanently takes away something that has felt like it will “always just be there,” something that reminds us that there is no wall that can not fall; that we are not truly safe anywhere in the dangerous, ever-changing world of Tyria.

A) for me.

I never liked Lion’s Arch very much (well not since Guild Wars 2 anyway). To be totally honest, I feel like if every capital city had a mystic forge, the role that Lion’s Arch plays would be of questionable importance. I avoid it as much as possible as it is, because all it presents for me is a low frame rate, ugly surroundings and a bunch of furries (?) sitting around spamming emotes and generally just attention-kittening. I do not associate very positive feelings with Lion’s Arch, it does nothing for me personally.

If I think about it, I really feel like if Lion’s Arch was no more and a mystic forge was added to each capital city, the game would be much better off. The capital cities are so beautiful and yet always so empty, it’s a shame! And there’s always a capital city that’s closer to you than Lion’s Arch is anyway, so if they all had asura gates leading to the other cities, I think all the bases would pretty much be covered. By splitting up the “chilling” (or afking) players into different cities would also alleviate having to stare at a 60-second loading screen every time you want to head back to home base, if you will.

The capital cities have so much more character, beauty and even just straight-up immersion / role-playing potential than Lion’s Arch does. I would absolutely love for these to be the “hubs” of the game instead of Lion’s Arch, which can be reduced to a small port town for all I care.

Personally, Wolf Form is a key component of my Norn Warrior tank build. As far as I can tell, with how my build is set up, there is factually no other Elite that would be more effective and work as well with it than the Wolf Form.

In WvW, when I’m tanking hard, I can hit my Endure Pain and that gives me time to activate Wolf Form and use skill #5 to leap into action. Once you’ve tackled an enemy with that, you can mash #2 and watch your HP bar fill right back up. The best thing is, the more enemies around you, the more HP you leech with skill #2, and as an extreme tank, if I’m going down you can bet there are more than 5 people on me to leech from.

There’s more, as well. As a tank my damage is low — very low. The only enemies I can really kill with ease are thieves, being that I’m impossible for them to take down and they themselves go down very easily (most other classes of enemy will just run away when they realise they can’t kill me). But with Wolf Form, now I have at my disposal three attack skills that do perfectly good damage. When someone attacks me solo, I can sometimes use Wolf Form to actually get enough damage (and crowd control too) to take them down, something I could never do otherwise with just my weapons.

The “Fear cone” skill’s use just goes without saying in WvW; the howl skill (#4) gives AoE blowout (or whatever they’re calling that now), which is actually an invaluable ability to have as someone who primarily plays a “line breaker” role in WvW.

Honestly my build would be half as effective without Wolf Form there as backup.

Personally I don’t get why Anet even allowed the option to make a norn with black skin colour. I’m very confused re: how this even makes sense in the lore.

Given that norn come from the arctic there is no anthropological explanation for why they would have dark skin. Maybe if they spent several dozen generations in a desert environment this could happen, eventually, but we can easily rule out that possibility because A: they were geographically extremely isolated just two centuries ago, and B: the norn with black skin tone are found all over continental Tyria, making it unlikely that they came from Elonia recently enough for this to make sense. They certainly weren’t around in the time of the first game.

As for the discussion at hand about the title of the thread, it’s actually quite ridiculous as well. Here’s the reason the title makes no sense: because there is no Africa in Guild Wars lore. So all they are is “Black Norns.” It makes no sense to bring “racism” into this discussion as we are not even discussing a real race, we’re discussing a skin colour of a fictional species in a video game.