Guild Wars 2

War Mourner.5168:

I wasn’t saying every necro has that, I was just saying that’ what my build has, as an example. SG works fine, you just have to be aware of the terrain between you, and lead the enemy or it will miss, and not fire it at max range while they’re running away from you because that’s also a miss because it would have to travel more then 1200 to reach them in the end.

I believe SG has a pull range of 900. Its stated in the bugs section here.

Double quote. (bleh)

Stof.9584:

Necroes are balanced.

There are no misconceptions: if you’re bad Necro makes you play worse, but if you’re skilled Necro can be very strong.

Since a lot of people are posting, please forgive me if I don’t respond to you specifically. I’ll try to respond to the larger post, but there are quite a few.
-This one, necro’s are balanced in a way, but balanced is only good if everyone else is. Also, a very skilled (insert another proffession here) Is more preferable.
————-Moving on——————

Wells and such: Wells can be used in condition builds, as the ground targeting runs in the same tree as conditions. Also, if you replace wells with corruption skills its essentially the same thing for corrupt boon and really a preference for the others vs epidemic. Also avoiding wells is just as easy as avoiding epidemic honestly.(interrupt and there goes your 40 second combo).

Corrupt boon + epidemic: Epidemic has a radius of 600, its not going to spread to absolutely everyone. This combo requires 2 utility slots, and really is just a one-trick pony. Its alright, but its primarily useful in hotjoins and such, competitive play its a no-no.

Ebola on the minions: Oh your right, i could forsake death nova and get both. Kind of makes the same point in the end though.
-Also minion ai is horrible. Its so inconsistent its just silly. If it wasn’t I’d be totally for minion builds.
-BAD LINKS
-Anyway, i get the gist of the conditions, I never considered bleed duration to begin with honestly. The problem I had is that necro’s had lower damage and bleeds stack slower to begin with.(regardless of top damage that is impossible to reach in pvp). Your Idea was to spam conditions so that bleed doesn’t get removed? Its a good idea in a way, but has one huuuuuge downside. Conditions(ours especially) don’t prevent actual damage, especially crit(weakness has a 50% reduction chance). This leads to generally any range class just going “lol”. We don’t have a ridiculous amount of blinds, or poison for that matter(its all really short). And not to be just REALLY OBVIOUS, but throwing out conditions won’t stop any random person from just running up to you and bursting you down. We don’t have a lot of control, something a necro really should be the king of.(especially with weak conditions).
-Lol @ explaining healing skills. Thanks, I can read descriptions and its not needed.
——————
DS and LF

Death shroud is generally a huge misconception. People think “oh you can just tank and such and such” No. It ticks down regardless, and it has ridiculously long cooldowns that (unless traited) you are probably only gonna use once. The health regen heals your LF not your actual health(which again, unless traited just barely heals you over the tick if at all).

Regen, unless traited is awful. Even then a lot of the necro’s regen doesn’t get boosted with healing power by much(if at all incase of minions).
—————————————-

Again, its cute that people think w/e build does damage is viable, and yeah….in hotjoins it probably is. Hell, any burst/offensive build is viable “if you play with your team” regardless if you get 1 shot by an auto attack(exagerration for you sensationalist).

Survivability with necro is either relatively high(below bunkers), or non existent. We are sitting ducks with almost every offensive build you guys have put up.(cept fear, but that is primarily a cc build so w/e). I’m just laughing at the "yeah corrupt boon + epedimic!, while any burst will just completely faceroll you.

Hey we can be sub-par bunkers or sub-par offensive, that is our choice.

Sharpy.8397:

Right,

people need to understand that one of Arenanet goal with this PvP is to make it into an e-sport. The game mode is pretty good for an e-sport as it is easy to understand, tactical and very fast paced. Also most e-sports around only have 1 real game mode so I don’t see why having one game mode is a problem! Also please play the game with a team if you do not already, find some people to play with and you will see how fun and tactical this gamemode is. But yes ele at the moment is kind of ruining the game a little right now, making it far to hard to take a point and with very little skill, once this is fixed and ladders are added this game will be so sweet!

Because every other game that IS an esport does have other game modes in variation at the very least.

Seriously, none of the esport games have just ONE game mode.

Kneru.8014:

Seriously? This is getting freaking annoying. When someone stealths, the pet should drop targetting, until the owner re-engages and attacks themselves. Pets should not be heatseeking missiles that just lock on to the target after stealth. Fix it, fix it NOW!

AFTER stealth!

Oh poor you, you get attacked after stealth? Lol. You do know thieves can maintain stealth for a pretty long time right?

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Corrupt boon / epidemic is getting less and less viable, due to team-based condition-removes (eg. water-attuenement, shout-guard with soldier-runes). What I would play is wells, for boons-into-conditions. It’s not only on one target. As the necro is a dedicated teamfighter and will often act in teamfights, wells are on top. Corrupt boon is viable for taking out single classes faster.

I prefer wells myself, but the problem is that people have to sit in them for it to be ok and their cooldowns are generally 1 maybe 2 a fight.
—————-

On a side note: Spectral armor needs a lower C/D 90 seconds for protection? lol.

Lyonell.1753:

Not to mention you can turn your cripples into an immobilize, my fave trait on the warriors arsenal of anti easy mode.

1 second immobilize…….wooo.

War Mourner.5168:

Staff is fine as it is, sure circles might not be the most exciting idea for a weapon, but it’s very practical.

The main change I would like to see is a change to the graphic of the marks, as it’s difficult to tell at a glance what marks are what when they’re on the ground.

Its fine
-make it worse.

I’m not a fan of this game mode to begin with. Thats the ONLY spvp game variant?

I mean there is just so many different ones out there, how about CTF? TDM? Idk, it would be great if we got something else.

Oareo.1604:

Most bunkers don’t use boons to survive? Wow.

I hope aspiring necros don’t listen to this “expert” and keep on practicing. Unless this is supposed to be ironic, everything you’d said is a misconception about necros.

Sensationalism? Why bother?

Most bunkers don’t need lyssa or all the boons at once in order to do their job, which makes corrupt boon not as effective as “on paper”. That being said good bunkers who are reliant on boons, know how to re-apply said boons if one gets flipped or stripped. You have to realize that we aren’t the only class with boon stripping abilities, and bunkers are generally used to that. Oh you stripped that ele’s protection/regen? Re-apply. Nice long cooldown for that corrupt boon though.

Again, please don’t use sensationalism when my post are in the same page, its lazy. Bunkers use boons, they just don’t need enough for corrupt boon to make a huge difference.

Verisuvalise.3615:

You directly counter ever boon-based bunker (all of them) in the game.

A lot of damage / pressure specs also rely on stacking boons (whether it’s might, vigor, swiftness, or fury) which means you can also be very deadly to them as well

Your condition-based elite basically forces a node neutralization / cap every time you use it.

Fear also forces targets off of points (if you know how to use it), can deal good damage, and renders the target inable to control themselves for the duration, which means with teammates around, you can kill almost anything.

Death Shroud is theoretically the best bunker ability in the game (except maybe some weird Flamethrower build) because it effectively doubles the time you can spend tanking enemies.

Your strength with conditions doesn’t necessarily stem from being able to spam your 1 key and get 15+ stacks of bleeds going, but your ability to turn your enemies advantages into equally proportionate disadvantages, create pressure by controlling the effects and position of your enemies, and use the huge amount of group pressure you have access to to effectively steal nodes for your team.

This is Conquest PvP, not 2v2 or 3v3, and in this game mode, your class is more than capable of excelling.

Hmm… How do i put this….
1. Corrupt boon is a good skill, but requires a boon-heavy class. Sure it helps when they pop all their boons under heavy fire, but its not going to win a 1v1 or really do much good unless you have them pop all their boons. You are counting on them running a boon heavy build, its not gonna happen, especially since most bunkers don’t need all those boons to survive and avoid that just for this purpose.(also doesn’t work on ele).
2. You see plague isn’t as great as you think it is. Its very limiting honestly and although it might double your hp, any range can just burst you down. Stability can also be stripped easily wala, entire elite done. It doesn’t Force a cap, it forces people to focus you. If 2 or more people are range, you will most likely die in a heartbeat.
3. Our fear is again, bad. Long cooldowns for short duration fears, even when trait.
4. Death shroud is one of the worse abilities in the game. Good concept, horrible execution.

@Taym

:/ Its hard to prove to people condition damage or such is bad.

Why? Because if it does ANY damage, people will still think its good. That is the logic that I’m constantly met with and have seen forever in the wow forums. I try to use comparisons of other similar skills in hopes that people will realize the difference. It works 50% of the time honestly, but they have to have played that class as well.
———————
Lets say bleeds on necro do 50% less, the logic still remains the same for most of these people supporting conditions. Eh
—————-

Also, that is funny

Uh……warriors have a ton of abilities that still use the cooldown if we aren’t in range or facing the right way.

DarkniteJ.8053:

Empiren.6401:

Talentless.5708:

I appreciate the bumps to this thread, but you should really return to the forums designated for your class, since you dont understand or respect the necro forum or class.

I understand necro well enough, I mained it for quite some time, I just have no respect for a class that Arenanet seems to not care about in the least.
(I mean minion ai is still broken and our conditions are pitiful.)

But hey, this is all about boosting your ego, so I apologize for not realizing the point of the thread.

Ha! There you go. He is a troll and is just here to stroke up his Ego. Again, he speaks in absolutes and assume he knows everything.

This is where those English lessons would come in handy.

Boosting your ego.

His ego, not mine in that context. Thanks a bunch!
———
And absolutes? Really? You are still going on about that?

This would have been a great PET SKILL that the rangers could use, instead of it being auto.

Talentless.5708:

I appreciate the bumps to this thread, but you should really return to the forums designated for your class, since you dont understand or respect the necro forum or class.

I understand necro well enough, I mained it for quite some time, I just have no respect for a class that Arenanet seems to not care about in the least.
(I mean minion ai is still broken and our conditions are pitiful.)

But hey, this is all about boosting your ego, so I apologize for not realizing the point of the thread.

fakeblood.2576:

In the original post u said necros can’t bleed like rangers?
Scepters 3rd attack is poison

Hmm how do I put this gently, Necro’s have a harder time applying sufficient bleeds than rangers do and they don’t use poison to mix it.
——————
Scepter 3rd auto attack is poison, yes, it does how much damage? 500? Same as bleeds? Yeah….. no.
—————

Anyway, this “L2P” stuff is cute, but thats not the point of this thread.

Depends on what you run with traits/gear

Generally undead for pvp if you run rabid(toughness/precision/condition)
And If you are just going for max bleed damage over time you go bleed duration.

War Mourner.5168:

It’s actually pretty easy to escape a thief (assuming you have perm swiftness, but this is wvw after all), since thieves’ gap closing is based around burning init with the heart seeker or sb 5. Other then that, thieves don’t have much swiftness, only the movement sig, so dropping marks in your path, dooming or goem charging him as he tries to chase, and he won’t catch up.
If he does decide to waste all his init to chase you, then you turn around and kill him because now he can’t use most of his weapon skills.

Of course I wouldn’t try disengaging once he’s in melee range, thats just asking for hs spam in the back usually.

Well steal has quite a large range which usually will stop your “run away” attempts.

Combine that with fear, yup.
——————

Overrall thiefs are just better in the wvw scenario as roamers. Its practically their class objective.

Running axe/focus and dagger/horn popping lich and DS for a single fight.

Yeah lets just say if you aren’t burst, you might as well be. The difference is minimal when you use them. Oh you specced into something else? Well besides the fact that you didn’t show that, its pretty obvious its the same intention in the end. Burst them down with power/crit, apply vulnerability if they are stupid enough to run into your wall.

Again, wvw with crit dmg being as-is, you could just show a burst build ending the fight within 5 seconds lol.

staff #5 needs a lower cooldown or a longer fear.

1 second fear for a 40 second cooldown. Its a joke.

Quote not loading so i’m just going to respond to taym here:
Ranger doesn’t need to be w/e copy pasta build you are using. They can run conditions as well, and do it a hell of a lot better than you’d think. Also, trap rangers can run w/e else they feel like, i believe trap rangers need to take what…the 30 points in crit for traps? Rangers also have a skill + crit chance for bleeds. Yeah, they have utility duh.
-AGAIN- You are not taking into account IMPLEMENTATION, you are just spouting out straw man arguments about pets auto attack(really, look at the skills for pets even, cmon that is just lazy).
———————
Sadly warrior has a better time than necro for condition removal builds. The cooldowns alone prove this.
AGAIN- Implementation vs “two types”(just a hint, necro has ONE, bleeds, their poison damage is awful.).
———————

Warrior has skill mobility. And as for “higher hp” and deathshroud/plague.
1. You need to BUILD deathshroud.
2. Higher hp(not by much mind you) means nothing if you sit there and take all the hits.
3. AHAHAHAHAH, you popped plague. Lets just stand 5 feet outside your radius and laugh at you while we can auto attack you down.(says every range class ever.)
————————

Yeah, well any number of different combinations still beats the necro helping in team fights.
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On a final note: reality vs on-paper.

You have to take into account everything and the other versions of your tactics. Yeah, necro’s could stand on a ledge and nuke. So could rangers or ele’s, and they don’t need conditions for that.(static field + firestorm, there you go, better than necro).

This is kind of obvious but: If necro is basically there for just epidemic and his pitful dots, why not just bring any other combination that can’t be nullified with condition removal?

Talentless.5708:

dangerdoom.3862:

Talentless.5708:

sigh… focus #5, wall, focus #4, axe #3, ds.

then warhorn #5, darkness well, dagger #1, warhorn #4 then finish.

Saw your video, you fight noobs, if you turn around and cast your slow skill #5 on focus you’ll be lucky to be able to cast your precious wall.

1. w/ trait is 1200 range and used on inc so that the application is done at 1200 – begin out of range. I left out the thief 1v1 because I didnt get to stomp him before a JQ zerg strolled by. I have more thieves try to run from me than kill me. That is not an elitist comment. My “video” was just fights from one night… I am not a forum warrior saving clips over months to make myself look amazing… I have posted ways in which I kill thieves (not all of them are baddies, but most are), and if you dont like it, oh well… keep dying then.

His point was more that people have to run over your wall and any theif that gets the drop on YOU, will probably kill you.
(which btw, is the point of this topic)

But hey, power necro’s think they are good lol. In wvw you’d be at half health(at least) within the first burst, you would have already lost as a power necro.

PinCushion.7390:

Rennoko.5731:

The question of the day might be, shouldn’t you be able to destroy them more convincinly with such a higher skill level?

His build is designed to mitigate as much damage as possible and wear his opponent out over time. So, no, he shouldn’t be able to destroy people more convincingly. He’s dominating people by severely reducing their damage output and winning the cooldown war. I found it entertaining to watch, and wasn’t surprised that those guys didn’t really know how to fight back. He’s playing in a rather unusual way. Most people just try to outburst the other guy rather than outlive him.

Very cool vid.

Uh….he’s actually a burst build.

So yeah, he should. Considering he’s just going there and unloading its not a cooldown war or war of attrittion by any means.

He is trying to outburst them actually, axe, dagger, and lich? Yeah thats necro burst.
——————————————

But hey its WvW, its not like its really a talent show. cough talentless cough

Talentless.5708:

Talentless.5708:

WvW and spvp are completely different. WvW is more about staying alive, positioning and movement. Spvp you know where everyone is and builds would have to be completely different. Knocking one at the expense of the other is rather ignorant.

WvW and Spvp ARE completely different, 1v1 in wvw is a pointless show. I’ve seen enough warrior/theif burst videos to know that its not much of a fight. Now I’ve seen a necro burst, great, takes a lot longer with little benifit for it. You popped DS and Lich and it still takes you a good 30 seconds.

Knocking one at the expense of the other isn’t ignorant, its just stating the obvious. WvW isn’t the place where you put “1v1” vids, no one cares because the situation isn’t really competitive to begin with. If you had some sort of duel, sure. But you just ran up and unloaded. Woooo 1v1!

Talentless.5708:

Empiren.6401:

You lose, thats it.

Thieves can steal fear from you and burst you down in that time period alone, much less a bunch of other annoying stuns/immobiles that will eventually kill you.

Your options versus a theif are this:
Try and prolong the point as long as possible and hope he doesn’t notice. and just burst you because your conditions can’t do any reasonable amount of damage fast enough.

Or

Try and counter burst him.

Either way, you probably lose.

You make a habit to troll necro forums with false information? Necros should never die to thieves 1v1.

:/ Thief burst in WvW will generally equal a win(with crit damage being as-is).
————-
That being said, if you go to spvp and such it really depends on the scenario.

Do you have full LF? Does the theif know what he’s doing? Is he specced burst, are you?

Its really a 50/50 chance for the theif, but necro’s generally all play either power or condition.(MM would definitely lose thanks to that ai against stealthed).
————

Power: Sure if he remains out of stealth you have a good chance. If you meet the requirements you can always pop lich and auto attack. He gets the drop on you, you probably are going to die though.

Condition: VS stealth you lose. Condition won’t stack enough per time out and condition removal/regen while in it. VS burst….eh, you might win. It REALLY depends on his utilities, build, and everyone’s c/d’s. If he has his ult and you don’t, probably gonna die. Other way around you have a chance. But conditions are very iffy, Necro’s larger hp pool won’t really matter when the guy can burst through that difference.

Odds are if a theif gets the drop on you, as a necro, you will die. If he steals after he burst you, i’m going to say its for certain.

Taym, you are making a very common mistake, paper vs implementation.
-You are forgetting equips, runes, and gear.
-You are forgetting cooldowns.
-You are forgetting trade-offs.

Ranger blends both poison and bleeds together for a much more reliable condition build. That being said, ranger has a faster auto attack and at a better range. AND it pierces. 60% chance to crit means faster attacks faster bleeds.
-Also pets do over 5k on their own, thats is a lot. Combined with your pet skill thats a total of 10k in bleeds per pet.
-Also, you don’t need “bleed duration +” because poison works just as well and prevents healing by a nice amount.
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Warrior bleeds last longer, and go for more total per hit. Also, they have sword 4 which throws a sword and continually applies bleeds. Warrior can maintain a good amount of stacks and sword 2 is a nice gap closer to stay in melee range. Necro can nuke better supposedly(idk against LB though), but in a competitive surrounding you aren’t going to sit on a ledge and just nuke, someone is going to stop you.
-again, can’t stress this enough, earth runes + crit chance far outways necro. Especially with LB fire aoe.
———————

Anyway point still stands that necro has subpar conditions in exchange for being the easiest to hit class in the game.

Oareo.1604:

Null field is a good spell. It’s one of the few ways a mesmer can deal with conditions.

But do you think Null Field removes all conditions every pulse? Because it doesn’t.

Tell me more about these AoE all cleanses on short cooldown.

No, I don’t. It usually does every tick/sec.
—————
Well you see AoE cleanse is a very nice thing, its pretty handy when that one stupid necro uses epidemic, because that is all you need. One cleanse. Focus down(2v1 is all you’ll need) the necro and wala, done. But what if the necro escape and pulls another epidemic?

Not this this isn’t already apperant. Necro’s can’t build the stacks up for every epidemic cast. The cooldowns aren’t in sync. 25-30 for every major bleed(enfeebling, blood is power).
——-
But what about poison? Nope, necro has horrible poison damage. See ranger instead.
Burning? None.
—————-
So your option is to epidemic conditions from someone else! But…….that doesn’t make up for the minor amount of damage you’ll be pulling in that gap.

And lets be honest, its a rare sight for a fight to last long enough for two epidemics to be useful.

Talentless.5708:

AirWick.1769:

Don’t be too impressed with this if you watch carefully in his videos hes fully stacked 25 bloodlust sigil, power food / w/e oil hes using. His opponents for all parts of the video I watched were not even stacked with 25 stacks of bloodlust sure they had some had food boons. This might work on amateurs in wvw but the only way to impress people in 1v1s as a necro is in tpvp against pro’s. Where real pvpers are at.

WvW and spvp are completely different. WvW is more about staying alive, positioning and movement. Spvp you know where everyone is and builds would have to be completely different. Knocking one at the expense of the other is rather ignorant.

Uh…..you do know WvW isn’t a “1v1” scenario right? This only proves that you killed someone in wvw 1v1, doesn’t prove anything about the necro as a class or you for that matter.

It doesn’t impress me simply because I could show you a warior getting 10-15k crits and that would be the end of it.
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Also how is wvw more about staying alive than spvp in your scenario? You made a 1v1 scenario, how is that any different. Hell, if you played warrior/thief it would be over in half the time lol.
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Based on your build, I’d laugh if you tried this in spvp. You’d get wrecked 1v1. Crit damage is a lot less.

-Seriously, any crit build specced right can burst the unsuspecting person down fast enough, that if they are a amatuer, it won’t matter what class you are. WvW also has a pretty noticeable level gap problem. Higher levels will usually win vs lower because of gear/traits/stats
-Yeah yeah, you get raised up to 80, cool. Try playing with starting gear/traits at 80 Yup.

You lose, thats it.

Thieves can steal fear from you and burst you down in that time period alone, much less a bunch of other annoying stuns/immobiles that will eventually kill you.

Your options versus a theif are this:
Try and prolong the point as long as possible and hope he doesn’t notice. and just burst you because your conditions can’t do any reasonable amount of damage fast enough.

Or

Try and counter burst him.

Either way, you probably lose.

Oareo.1604:

Expansive.3716:

But I feel that in a team situation, the necro is very strong. But when looking at the whole picture, the Necro still needs some attention and I know you would admit that much as well. But nice post

This is accurate. 1v1 epidemic is weak.

However, play to your strengths! Team fight if that’s what you are good at.

I had this EXACT situation last night. A very talented necro crushing us in team fights. Played them twice in a row. The second time we built around heavy conditions, expecting it. We did better, but still lost. However, I was able to 1v1 the necro the second time. Admitedly, they were better (and higher ranked) than us. But the point is, they used necro as a key part of that betterness.

Here is the another misconception.
“team fights” or having a team build around you.

Team fights.
- First off team fighting for most other professions is done better. Its better to buff your team and help them than to spread a generally weak condition to the enemy team. Why? because boons can be spread so much easier and more rapidly than your short epidemic, they don’t have to be maintained, and they can’t removed as easily. —-—Secondly AoE from other classes does better damage to begin with and takes less time for it to come to fruition(even in conditions). Why bring the necro? to apply bleeds? Why not just bring a staff ele or a ranger, or a warrior if your feeling that good about protecting a target for offense.
-Third, what about boons? We give NONE, so why keep on commenting that we should be in a team fight?
————-Basically this is saying “they are good if you are carried by your team”.——————-

Building around the necro.
-No reason to. Why not build around any other class instead/? The reliability is a lot higher and the general boons/conditions they can throw out are a lot more consistent. And I’d take poison over bleeding ANY day.
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Last but not least, for you condition necro’s saying “oh just teamfight”
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Null_Field
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition#Skills_that_remove_conditions

Yup. The enemy can “team fight” too.(as well as just generally remove your conditions). Necro’s aren’t consistent with bleeds and this makes them less viable than every other class.

Gotta think about these things.

Oareo.1604:

Necro conditions are not better than warrior conditions.

Ranger conditions are better for one on one, but for a team fight, corrupt boon and epidemic say hi.

Corrupt boon? Forgot that.
-First off it can be blocked, dodged, and obstructed quite easily
-Secondly, its not as useful as you think. Its got a high c/d and really only influences boon stackers to be honest.

Epidemic, NICE
-1 second cast time. -interrupt
-Epidemic is a nice skill, but you are missing something: AoE Cleanse takes care of that.
-While it has a nice cooldown, it also doesn’t reset the duration.
MEANING:
Lets say you have 12 stacks of bleed from w/e, you spread that.
-Now with epidemic, you spread that up to 5 other players!
-Still less than aoe and takes longer.
--——————
I’d rather use any number of other profession condition aoe than epidemic. Spreading conditions is nice, but its not like people aren’t going to have a counter to that or that it won’t get blocked somehow.(or interrupted).
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Any more?

Pfft, our survival skills are pretty “meh”.
-minions give good regen, but don’t scale with Healing power and wow is it frustrating to have minions just SIT THERE while you try and get their ai to come back from the twilight zone.(that 2 attack thing works, maybe 50% of the time. i mean wow do they just bug out in pvp. Sometimes I can only get half of them to attack).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yWgn_Pwa2s

Its just…amazing. How does minion ai bug out SO MUCH when ranger pets are generally on top of it, all the time. Idk, its starting to make me mad when i’m sitting there wailing on them and my minions are just "uh whats up? nah i’m going to stand there.
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Anyway our control is also horrible. We have minimal everything.
———————

Sustained damage? Lol sure, if they sit there. They will throw out as much stuns and such as possible, which is pretty easy to interrupt comparitively.

Lets start a topic saying what generally makes our class OP or such and the reality.
—————————

We have a large hp pool.
-Yes, we also wear cloth, have no real in-fight mobility skills, and our regen isn’t anything to brag about because our hp is large, and we basically have to facetank every hit.
-In other words yes, our hp pool is a couple thousand higher, but doesn’t make up for anything.

Deathshroud gives us up to 40k hp!
-It sure does!(if traited) But it also ticks away hp regardless of actions, has 4 skills,
1. pitiful auto attack that is only good if power/crit.
2. a condition/freeze that pulls you towards the enemy
3. A fear that is single target.
4. An aoe life leech that usually won’t heal you past your life ticking anyway.
-And makes you a sitting duck! What people don’t realize is that 40k hp is only the first second of activation, not 10 seconds down the road. So add that with anyone who wants to start wailing on you, you probably are going to have a lot less hp/regen than you’d think.

We can leech life to keep us alive!
-good luck with that. Many of our traits mean to give us life, don’t really work that well in implimentation. [Deathly Invigoration] one of our traits, heals us for a total of…1k? Per deathshroud disengage. But elementalist get a total 2-3k per dodge if traited. Many of our leeching abilities don’t actually go along with healing power in fold.
-Also, our minions don’t scale with healing, so there is that.
+700 healing(from ammy) on life siphon(dagger) gives me 37 more health per hit. That is pretty sad.

Our conditions are the best.
-No, no they are not. Ranger AND warrior beat us here. Why? Stacking and ease of use. Necro’s use bleeds for damage(because they have no poison/fire with high dmg). This means they need a lot of stacks.
-Do their stacking methods beat warriors? No. You can easily stack 20 bleeds with s/s warrior. Necro you’d be luck to even stack over 12 in spvp.
-Do the overall damage top rangers? No. Rangers have poison(which also blocks heals) and bleeds at the same time. The overall stacking ability is much higher and so is the overall damage especially given their elite skill and pets.

Anything else you’d like to add?
-Minion Skills are spread out to make a player choose between minion damage or player survival.(condition draw or 30% damage)

Detcelfer.9736:

I’ll sum it up for everyone here what the kitten problem is. Ready?

CC is out of control. Get it? Crowd control out of control? CC should be, like many MMO’s out there today locked on a character after they’ve taken 3 within I dunno, maybe a 10 second period then it refreshes.

The problem I see is certain classes dont have “get out of jail” free cards and others do who can simply back out of a fight whenever they want to. This SHOULD NOT be possible under any circumstance without a major trade-off.

Take away cc and the bunkers get even more surivability though. That is almost the exact opposite of the point he was making.

Oni.5429:

This game was sold as a game where every class would be able to the same thing equally well on every front?

Go read the class philosophy, this was never their view. Clearly they had different attributes in mind for all sorts of classes which result in imbalances in advantages. This isnt a bad thing. The sicilian opening in chess tends to give you sexy queenside+central pressure but you arent going to be able to a kingside pawnstorm any time soon. Hell, chances are you’ll be subjected to them. This leads to a deep strategic game where the two opposite sides are striving for their ideal form of the game, usually with white bumrushing your king and black counterattacking through the center.

Imbalances=good
Unbalanced=bad
For example, eles deserve an arrow to their eyes.

I’m sorry, but this game isn’t chess. The strategies involved aren’t the same. Its simply one build will beat one build. Chess relies on strategy, GW2 pvp relies on builds before going into the game winning against certain builds.

Same as wow, there is only so much your class can do at any given point. The new players will always pass this off as “get more skill”, or such. Its not skill, its just an unbalanced game.

Please arenanet, this should be fixed.

A simple debuff(not allowed to tpvp for said amount of time) might fix the problem.
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or
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This is how most games do it, if not everyone readies by said time, you don’t start the game and whoever didn’t get kicked out of the matchmaking and the party remains. (this is before being put in the match)
Of course if its a premade they can easily re-do the party by quitting it and getting everyone back together, or even just inviting that one person back.

Dancing Face.4695:

They removed trinity: every class can be each of 3 role in this game. So they say, but evryone here knows that some classes are better of others in doing some jobs. So they removed nothing. Sure everyone can try to be tank or a healr but must sacrifice all of offensive abilites when some other classes do not. They haven’t same skills and this means that they have no same efficiency. It’s not whine. You only have to go in some premades, you’ll always find guardain bunker or ele bunker and thief roamer.

Tanks and healers in other mmo survive but in wow you must not stay alive forever to take points like gw2. Thats the problem, this match mechanic promotes to have at least 2 but better 3 bunker builds in your premade. Boring. Sometimes i fell doing a dungeon instead or pvp, really.

Well that IS how it feels, You are sitting there using every attack to down a guy running away in circles, wow that sure is fun. Oh and you might not be able to kill him because regen is a bit broken. I mean we have 1 heal for every class, but if specced and traited, you have like 3-4!(and usually they are on low c/d’s).

Its just ridiculous, bunkers I wouldn’t mind if they required teamwork to aid them. Most bunkers 1v1, don’t. That, in its entirety makes the match feel soo boring, even from the bunker perspective.
-I can’t tell you how many times on my ele someone came up who wasn’t glass cannon and all I had to do was roll around and laugh because the damage vs my regen for auto attacking was just silly.

Again, we have a whole bunch of “builds”. Which techinically, we have the same as every other proffession, just no one really cares about naming a build that is so similar to the other one.(seriously, power builds can be varied, we get it). Every other proffession has the same type of build variations as well revolving around different profession mechanics.
-Power
-Hybrid
-Condition
-Minion
There, those are are 4 main builds with variation. If you want to name them “super ultra mega disease build” go ahead.
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Point being is that we have a whole bunch of builds, none of which really are competitive. Our power builds basically make us the easiest class in the game to down.(seriously, what are we gonna, do, teleport to that minion we summoned? Aoe 1-second fear?, as soon as another person joins the fight, you are dead.). Not only that, we don’t do power better than the other proffessions, what is the point then?

Our conditions are weak, easily removable, and quite easy to counter with a minimal amount of condition removal/cc.

Hybrid is basically a mix of the two, “meh” if you go for damage you die quick, if you go for survival you don’t do better damage than any other professions, you die albeit a slower death.

Minion ai is awful. It just is. Its unreactive and taking 2 full hits to start them going is horrible as they aren’t exactly speedy to begin with. Melee generally can just kill them on their way and range can kite enough for them to never come into play. Please, do show me some videos of minions being even the least bit decent in pvp other than an already 2v1 fight.
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SO, we have have a lot of “builds”, just none of them are better than cookie cutter builds from other professions.(much less the variations of such builds or different builds altogether).

Again, this whole point was that we have a bunch of builds, just as every proffession does. Doesn’t make us good in spvp.
(oh and that “team fight” stuff, yeah, staff ele or mesmer does the job better, or trap ranger, or guardian, or warrior really with this next patch, or engi with immobolize).

Now this is something of a mystery to me. Guild Wars 2 focuses on not having the trinity(tanks/dps/healers), as such we have no healer or tank classes.

But what people have done through builds, is basically make that exact equivalent of healers + tanks in one build:

The Bunker
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Now most people who have played WoW or most other mmorpg’s know that tanks don’t survive on their own.(usually even 1v1) They NEED a healer otherwise they die without doing significant damage. Same can be said for healers, they can heal other people, but they need a tank/dps to peel off aggro so they can stay alive and do their job.(Of course dps does the damage).
-Basically explaining the trinity here.
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What guildwars gives us, are builds that can indeffinitely hold off a person if not traited/built specifically for anti-bunker.(in some proffessions this is almost impossible in implementation).

They do their job well, they sit on the point, they don’t die, or they die very very slowly gaining as much points as possible.

But……why do they exist?

What is the point of taking out the trinity if you still allow tanks/healers to exist albeit in a different form?
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I"m not saying there shouldn’t be defensive builds, but bunkers are overkill in most scenarios. I’ve fought many a time and played bunker quite a bit to know: Its boring, its uninteresting, and it makes the game less of what it could be. Even if I do kill the bunker, all i feel is annoyance because I know if one other point is capped, he will just repeat the process over and over as much as possible.

I for one got tired of the bunker scene. Constantly sitting on one point, just taking attacks? It was BORING. I wasn’t even fighting the enemy player, i was fighting the clock. I was dragging out the fight that I would either win(by not being able to be killed) or slowly (VERY slowly) die until i squeezed every last bit of my sitting on that point.(although in my d/d ele’s case i could always just escape to another point) In most 2v1 cases, i would die…….eventually. It takes a long time for a bunker to be downed regardless though, much longer than a normal player.
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Point is, Guild Wars sacrificed tanks and healers so that we have a build that incorporates the point of both on one proffession.

I mean the point of a healer/tank composition is to stay alive(in spvp on the objective), don’t bunkers fit that exactly?

Why not just make them tanks without aggro skills? That would solve all the spvp problems instead of them being able to hold off people 1v1 forever.

digitalghost.7891:

Empiren.6401:

4v5 que problems still as potent as they were before.

Except for this week is the battle of khylo, the one with the trebuchet/catapult.
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So instead of us having a slight chance, any 5 man team can just get on the treb and you got a pretty much auto-win. Lost 3 games in a row because of 4v5.
Edit: Make that 4, I just finished one.

let me guess, youre darnecro or whatever. whining and crying about cheating in every single match

No, I am not whatever player “darnecro” is. Note that this game does have a lot of people in it, odds are I’m not the player you think I am. I’m not crying about cheating, or w/e here either.

Please, refrain from labeling people as another person unless you are SURE they are said person.
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I’m being 100% honest here, I hardly play my necro anymore because conditions are pretty pathetic on it. So no, wasn’t me.
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Anyway, just posted this to kind of rage that tourneys are still failing to put 5v5 in the game. Which should be resolved with either a penalty to the leaver for one, and maybe just more certain matchmaking.

4v5 que problems still as potent as they were before.

Except for this week is the battle of khylo, the one with the trebuchet/catapult.
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So instead of us having a slight chance, any 5 man team can just get on the treb and you got a pretty much auto-win. Lost 3 games in a row because of 4v5.
Edit: Make that 4, I just finished one.

Zepidel.5349:

Premades are not premades without some form of VOIP. That being said it would be nice to have in game VOIP just so i can yell at pugs and tell them they are bad.

GLobabl agenda had that, it was awful.

SuperHaze.4210:

It hasn’t really been brought up much but I would like to see that as well. I would also like to be able to see my teammate’s target instead of requiring players to mark targets.

Target of target and miniature health bars would go a long way in team fights. Especially because many of the smaller classses you can’t tell just by outlines( asura)

Its only unique because death shroud is so very limited to begin with.

We get a pretty weak auto attack unless specced crit/power even then….,
A decent bleed/chill that pulls us TO them(any melee will abuse this).
A fear that is an ok duration that will be used at max 1 time if anyone hits you.
And we get a life drain that does ok damage, but doesn’t regen DS by much(if at all), and doesn’t heal us on our normal hp at ALL.

Deathshroud is almost useless. 9/10 times your going to be using it to pop in and out for a single skill(fear), or hit it as an “oh kitten” button, because you just got bursted and can’t escape thanks to our neverending “just sit there and take it” mechanic.
-Oh btw, you also have to BUILD death shroud, it doesn’t come up 100% on spawn and we don’t get skills/signets that just build it up fully like warriors adrenaline. Nah, that would be reasonable.

lettucemode.3789:

Gonna attempt to get this thread back on topic.

Yes, necros have lots of viable builds.
-Standard condition build (0/30/10/10/20, plus a few variations)
-Complete glass cannon that melts everything (30/30/10/0/0)
-Terror condition build (0/30/20/0/20)
-Ele-killing power build (30/20/0/0/20, super fun, 4.2k life blast crits, incredible dagger spam damage, boon removal)
-Minion bunker-buster (20/0/30/20/0, Berserker’s stats)
-Minion bunker (20/0/30/20/0, Soldier’s stats)
-Xelfer doesn’t stream anymore, but he used a hybrid condition/healing build that was very strong at holding a point, his team ran it all the time. From memory it was something like 0/20/20/10/20, Shaman’s amulet.
PERSONAL PLUG
-Hybrid condi/power build that also squeezes in Terror, also melts Eles (30/10/10/0/20) first link in sig
-Well bunker build with crazy life siphoning (10/0/30/30/0) second link in sig
-And more

Do necros have a god mode build that strongly affects the metagame, like trap rangers or bunker eles? No, not in sPvP, though I’ve heard that control WvW builds are in high demand. The point is that the trait lines is diverse enough to support a wide variety of builds, AND there is room for tweaking to suit personal preference, and all of them are pretty well balanced. Whereas there’s only one mesmer shatter build that’s used, or only one thief backstab build, for example.

When the devs say they want other classes to have our build variety, that’s a good thing.

From spvp
-That isn’t the condition build to my knowledge.
-Glass cannon(non viable)
-Terror what? Our fears are on long c/d’s with a short duration even if traited.(non viable).
- Ele what? Sounds like a made up build for pve/wvw(Non-viable)
-minion builds. Bad ai. (non viable).
-Xelfer’s : other classes do it better. (viable, but not better).
-Your build doesn’t “squeeze fear” it relies 90% of it on that. Again, fear is a weak mechanic unless you are teamfighting in which case there are many other better builds even for necro than being a “fear bomb”..(not viable).

Listen, I’m not saying we NEED an “overpowered” build.(even though 100b isn’t technically that). What I’m saying is that we don’t have a build that shines like other classes.

That and our minion ai is still horrid, and tooltips just outright lie.(Hell, just give us a +% in our character stats or something).

Great…..necromancer not getting a buff and banner warriors…..wait why. WHY

I get the “team play” aspect, but really…..its not the thing you need to work with warrior. How about battle standard getting a lower cooldown than many of the signets that res the exact same amount of people without that cast time?!

This seems to be an easier and less detrimental effect for spvp than wvw with its massive amount of numbers.

Can we get visible health bars? I know the developers have stated numerous times that mods are not allowed, so this should be a must.

I like the party thing in the side but how about floating over enemy and allies? They don’t have to be giant or look ridiculous, a simple red/black hp bar like the ones we have would do.

I’m guessing this topic has been made a hundred times but its something very important to spvp. Otherwise you have to look over every enemy which lets be honest is quite a pain when people are flying around everywhere.

Taym.8326:

On a sidenote, why the fascination with entangling roots. Every class has MANY ways to get out of this ability, if it hits in the first place any teleport, condition removal, block, invuln or dodge will instantly negate its effect. It is one of the easiest countered elites in the game and as such you will have to wait until the entire group wastes their abilities to have it work to its full effect, however this will never happen so you camp one target instead bypassing the entire aoe effect. The only side-bonus is this ability can deal with any summoned pets rather well only because the AI is so bad or they would get themselves out

Entangling roots is one if not THE best elite in the game for offense.

Not only does it entangle, it bleeds. For a LOT. its around 20k if condition build, the highest in the game.(also at a shorter duration than other high bleeds, necromancer’s cry).

It also has a relatively high hp if you used up your condition removal. Meaning condition builds and non-melee will have a harder time getting out by force.
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2minute cooldown and you have to consider: Not everyone is playing you 1v1 and this skill is aoe, you are deffinitely going to get some hits in on TOP of those bleeds.
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But most other ultimates aren’t really that offensive(at least the ones used). And stability can always be stripped for the tranformation type. Its a great elite, but then again, ranger is primarily offensive in nature so its only natural.

So I’m watching this(a bit late) and wow…….

Arenanet let me just fill you in from the spvp standpoint.

Conditionmancer: Relies on conditions. Generally the most popular build.(viable if in a team but does not do its jot significantly better than other classes).

Minion Master: Relies on minions. Minion ai is horrible.(not viable)

Power mancer: Relies on base damage and crits. Generally a glass cannon.(not viable)

Hybrid: Conditions and Power, generally a glass cannon and really just there for the highest dps.(somewhat viable, but not better than another proffession at its job).

Listen, we don’t have a “ridiculous” build. No ranger bleeds, no 100b, no d/d ele, no 100nades, no shatter, no bunker(?) guardian, no stealth, nothing.

Please arenanet lets fix minion ai, buff our pretty “meh” conditions, or fix the tooltips.

The tooltip is useless, so I wanted to know.

Bleed duration(afflicted, centuar, krait).
+45%
Weapon
+10%
Traits
20% Bleeds
33% scepter.

So… thats 108%?

Does it actually stack that high or is there an invisible cap?