I’ve heard different theories on how the elder dragons might be the cause of the gods’ silence, or how their power might be tied to dragons (ala Facets). I’m not sure I heard a theory stating outright that they are dragons though.
I feel kinda conflicted about that easter egg, since any news on the mursaat is good news. They have said already that they “have really cool plans for them” a long while ago, but it kinda ruins their (or at least Lazarus’) surprise return with such obvious dark foreshadowing.
They might as well put up a sign in Lion’s Arch saying: Warning! Mursaat Inbound. Do Not Touch!
@BuddhaKeks
Body count wise, I meant that the charr killed more people than the mursaat did in gw1, since we were discussing the evilness of the races.
Oh I see, sorry then, though it still could be more or less equal in that case, since the Mursaat probably committed genocide on the Seers and it’s debatable if the deaths in Orr would count for the Charr, they were the reason the cataclysm happened, but they did not execute it.
I’m at fault as well, since i should have been more specific. Though I do wish we knew more about the Mursaat/Seer war, and what was the cause of it. From what we learned about the Mursaat in gw1, and what little we found out about the Seers in gw2, they were both magical races that would put to shame all of the races of today. I’m guessing that the fully unbound magic of Tyria, before the creation of the Bloodstone, had something to do with that.
The my point basically boils down too… With good enough writing, and maybe a small dose of retcons (or “new knownledge” as it were), the writers can turn any evil race morally grey enough to be playable.
@BuddhaKeks
Body count wise, I meant that the charr killed more people than the mursaat did in gw1, since we were discussing the evilness of the races.
“Legends say a powerful dragon was trapped within the temple and lives there still. " http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Unwaking_Waters_%28Kurzick%29 Sorry, but you’re wrong there. It is not her lair, she did not willingly remain there – otherwise she wouldn’t be trapped.
Regarding the Harvest Ceremony, I dug a bit and it’s all fairly obscure what the purpose was, as there’s only three such lines about it:
“the ruler gave thanks to the gods for another bountiful year.”
“On that most holy day of the Canthan year, when all of the gods were praised to the heavens and the emperor’s divine blessing was placed on the land”
“He struck the moment the emperor had received the second blessing of Holy Dwayna”
All from An Empire Divided.
Though I couldn’t find it, I do recall mention that the magic received was to be spread to the people specifically.
And once more you’re wrong on something: the celestials are not the “emobodiments of the spirits of the stars” – Celestials are spirits of (at least mostly) humans who have transcended into the stars. See:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hai_Jii
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kaijun_Don
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kuonghsang
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tahmu
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Celestial_PigAt least four of 15-16 celestials were once humans. Why they became celestials isn’t 100% clear, but they exemplified certain traits, and that is implied to be the reasoning.
And I see no similarities with the Harvest Temple and Orr. It was atop a dragon (Kuunavang), and a place related to the Six Gods, but that’s just about it.
Kuunavang: “Who are these mortals? Are they really so brave as to enter my domain? No, truly they are fools who wish for a ticket to the Underworld.”
Kuunavang: “Fools! How dare you enter my whirlpool and threaten me with your meager magic. Turn back now or die!”
As for your quoted statements for the Havest Ceremony, how does that not imply having anything to do with the harvest? They emperor gets a divine blessing from Dwayna. He then procedes to place that divine blessing on the land, all the while giving thanks to another bountiful year… of harvest.
I’ll quote the Oracle on celestials.
Suun: “The stars in the night sky cast their light down upon the world, making physical replicas of themselves.”
Suun: “Kai Jun Don, the Kirin. The embodiment of corruption.” _
_Suun: “The being of pure good, turned to pure evil.” _
_Suun: “Quon Sang, the Turtle Dragon. The eternal paradox, not one thing or another.”
_Suun: “A reminder that we will never fully understand the Mists.” _
_Suun: “Hai Ji, the Phoenix, the representation of fiery eternity awaiting those in the Underworld.” _
_Suun: “And finally, the mightiest of them all, Tah Mu, the Dragon.” _
_Suun: “A constant reminder of atrocity, pain, and anguish.” _
_Suun: “You must defeat the avatars of these four celestial bodies if you wish to become Closer to the Stars.” _Like most real cultures, Cantha has a backstory or legend to go along with star constellations. Their story are extremely vague on details, and never mention any specific names other than their own, even the emperor’s in Quon Song’s story. The story behind Tah Mu and the like are just that legends.
Any singular place that holds the constant attention of any human gods should be suspect of a site of an Elder Dragon. It doesn’t help that the Harvest Temple is in a very weird spot, floating over the water in the middle of the Jade Sea. It has Dwayna’s attention once a year, where she gives gifts of magic, and said magic can be used to turn entire seas to jade and forests to stone.
I can see them starting to worship the karka. The karka would then eat them of course. It’s a free meal that comes to you after all.
and i’ve seen Mursaat here quite a bit lately but I have to point out that they are a evil race of spellcasters whom fear the Elder Dragons
so its highly unlikely we will ever see them in Gw2 even as enemies
To be fair, the Charr started off as an evil race of cat people that destroyed your homeland in gw1. They then proceeded to launch attacks on Orr, which lend to its destruction by the Vizsor, and they attacked Kryta as well, which were saved by the Mursaat.
The charr have a far larger body count in gw1 than the mursaat did, and if arena net can write them into a playable race; they can do the same with the mursaat.
Apparently, you’re confused somewhere.
Kuunavang is in no way shape or form related to the Harvest Ceremony, which in turn is not related in any known way shape or form to earth and nature. The Harvest Ceremony was a ceremony where the Emperor received a gift from the gods and then spread it to the people of Cantha – the “harvest” was of magic.
Also, the sylvari show no signs of being tied to Mordremoth (though the Nightmare does, and in turn the Nightmare Court does, but not the sylvari as a race – if people actually looked more than skin-deep at the situation, they’d realize this).
If anything, Kuunavang’s tied to some sort of sky/star Elder Dragon, given her ties to the celestials (she gives celestial skills) and air magic.
While Kuunavang might not be directly related to the Harvest Ceremony, she is related to the Harvest Temple itself, in that her lair was/is directly below it. Which is saying something, since the Harvest Temple was such a place of importance.
I also think that the “harvest of magic” of the Ceremony goes a bit deeper than that. All that we know on the subject is that the emperor prays to Dwayna, and she in turn gives him a gift of magic to spread to his people. What use would the Canthan people need for a yearly godly gift of magic though? Abbadon returned magic to Tyria by unsealing the Seer’s Bloodstone, so they don’t need the gift to do magic. I’m guessing the hint is in the name of the ceremony. The Harvest Ceremony. The emperor would spread the gift of magic to his people by way of securing next year’s harvest.
Other than her giving you the celestial ability, she doesn’t really have anything in common with the celestials, since they are the embodiments of the spirits of the stars. Which Kuunavang isn’t among. She does appear to have a slight air element in there, from her chain lightning ability. I brought up the earth/plant connection from her “Corrupt Dragon Spores” ability. The only other creatures with “spore” abilities are all plants to my knownledge.
In the end, we might just have to agree to disagree on this one. ^^
Though with all the research I did on the Harvest Temple just now, I’m starting to wonder if it was sitting (well, floating) on top of an Elder Dragon like Orr was, because I can see alot of similarities…
Speculation for another day I guess!
(edited by Erukk.1408)
I was joking when I said Kuunavang might be connected to the deep sea dragon. If it is connected to an Elder Dragon, it would be more along earth/plant based in nature. Kuunavang is the harvest dragon after all, so maybe the still unknown 6th dragon?
Plus, it would tie into the speculation that the sylvari and nightmare court possibly being connected to one.
That’s a debatable thing. There very much are evil conquerors (especially in fantasy stories), and Joko enforcing loyalty through negative conditioning isn’t exactly amoral (“If you won’t bow down to me, I’ll starve you and all your families and friends to death!”)
We’ll just have to seen how he acts once they get around to the Elona expansion, because i can easily see him moving into southern Orr now that Zhaitan is gone. Maybe also him trying to gain control of the remaining Risen as well, since they lost their controller.
His actions after that would depend on what Kralkatorrik is doing in the Crystal Desert, other than resting after its fight with Destiny’s Edge, and whether Palawa sees it as a big enough threat to stall him trying to push into Tyria.
Now back onto the topic at hand…
I’m kinda hoping that Primordius is behind it. From all that we seen of the Elder Dragons so far, they seem to be more “forces of nature” than an actually intelligent evil, and if they are going to be the major villains over the storyline of the game; I want some intelligence in there. If there isn’t, the storyline mostly gets all boiled down to, “Big Evil is here, you most gather allies to stop them!”…
Classic fantasy storyline, but still very generic.
The only one I can think of is Kuunavang, the guardian of the Harvest Temple. Though for all we know, it could be the uncorrupted champion of Bubbles, and the plague that Shiro released was a type of dragon corruption.
Time can only tell…
Odd thoughts..
1. Considering the White Mantle are linked to the Ministry and the bandits and they are trying to overthrow her Id say she isnt connected to the white mantle.
2. Countess Anise is quite mysterious in ways but shes also the leader of the Shining Blade which has been enemies of the White Mantle since the two groups formed. Her agents foil an attempt to assassinate the character in one of the PS paths by the White Mantle and you work with them to route out a cell.
3. Jennah’s pretty young. It would be an old cat by now but it wouldnt have to be that old.
Anyway, Shadow is clearly the champion of an Elder Dragon living underneath Divinity’s Reach and is mind controlling Jennah.
Ya, I’m good at odd thoughts and speculations.
Though if anything, I can see Jennah having ties with the mursaat, not the White Mantle. After the titans got released, and their race all but wiped out, the mursaat have no real need with the WM anymore, minus the whole revenge war that was WiK. It would also play into the Queen’s peacemaking nature, trying to form ties with what little remains, if any, that remains of their race.
Or Shadow could be holding a piece of Lazarus The Dire’s soul/power, and he is waiting for the right time to res himself.
Plus, the whole Queen/Mursaat Vs. Ministry/White Mantle would be pretty cool.
(edited by Erukk.1408)
Tengu- Because you know it’s going to happen.
Forgotten- Because there needs to be a snake race in a MMO.
Mursaat- Though I don’t see them being pure mursaat now, if there are the numbers anyway. I can see them changing themselves to hide from the titans. Plus, they don’t have a reason to be human sacrificing kittens now!
While I’m sure something is there, I can easily see her putting duty ahead of her personal feelings, and her using him in the end. Plus, I haven’t trusted her, or her group, since i first saw them…
Tin Foil Hat Time!
1) She wears White Mantle colors (white and gold). That raised a huge red flag when i first saw her.
2) Countess Anise. To my knownledge, the other races didn’t get a secondary mentor like the humans did. That marks her as a future important figure. She is also an expert in “Ancient Krytan Law”. Which is oddly specific.
And the most “crazy tin foil hat” speculations of them all.
3) Shadow, the Queen’s cat. For one, Human players can ask about it, so at least a small mark of importance. Secondly, the Queen responds with an odd statement when asked….
“Ah, yes. My little Shadow. I’ve had her since I was a child. Royal children have very few friends, and she has always been a comfort to me.”
It might not seem weird to most people, but if Harry Potter has taught us anything; it’s you never trust long lived, and seemingly harmless, pets of important characters.
/end tinfoil speculations
(edited by Erukk.1408)