Guild Wars 2

PvE condie mesmer is bad, but it’s not really linked to those 2 traits being in the same slot. It’s bad because of a slow rampup time, the need to completely reset damage after most mechanics, and its absolutely pure single target nature. The single target damage it does is fine though.

I’m saying your team queue team was bad. The system matches you with random opponents. On average, you’ll fight the same level of skill regardless of if you’re solo queuing or team queuing. Since you lost with team and won with solo, clearly your team was substantially worse than the average team you got as a solo player.

Well, I’ll use my knowledge of the matchmaking system to try and match a fit to your experiences.

1. Solo queuing produced win streaks → your solo queue teams were better than the teams you faced
2. Team queuing produced losses —> your team was worse than the teams you faced
3. Matchmaking does not take your mmr into account when finding opponents —> your opponents in both cases were of average quality

The conclusion you can draw here is that your team queue team was substantially lower skilled than the semi-random teams assigned to you by the matchmaking algorithm. That situation would fit your observed results.

DeathReign.7821:

I’m waiting for that 1v1 to happen. It would be fun to see Phokus put his money where is mouth is.

Ahh, this reminds me of the good old days when I cared enough about this game to force people to put up or shut up.

StickerHappy.8052:

Fay.2357:

Jace al Thor.6745:

denis.9487:

StickerHappy.8052:

phokus.8934:

StickerHappy.8052:

phokus.8934:

StickerHappy.8052:

phokus.8934:

You don’t need condition removal as a mandatory function to make Mesmer work.

Know your enemy first and foremost and learn to disengage when you need to.

This is false. I do not know on what MMR you play at but in High MMR matches, you might as well just afk if you do not have any cleanses.

Knowing your enemy is like 5% of the equation. You will never ever beat any condition class without a cleanse. It’s impossible. (Assuming equal skill)

Every class needs condition removal of atleast 1 source.

What you said makes you sound like a bad player who needs a crutch.

Again, I do not know what MMR you play in, so I am assuming you are facing average players.

And you’re clearly a bad player. Case in point, this thread.

Okay, 1v1 my ranger with no condi cleanse. Let’s bet gold on it. NO condi cleanse means no sigils either.

And please no PU.

I can understand the condition cleanse stipulation. But still the hate on pu???

If it’s a 1v1 why would you need PU? I don’t care much for PU because I love Bountiful Disillusionment too much now over it but if you have to rely on PU to win then you’re as bad a player as phokus claims Stickers is.

This is basically the definition of scrub logic. While stickers is right that you’re not going to see PU in most competitive matches, claiming that a win to PU is a false win is nothing other than creating false win conditions that have nothing to do with the actual game.

Oh yea. Lemme ask you pyro, am I delusional that Condition removal is required in competitive pvp matches?

So in the past, you could play power shatter with minimal/no condition removal. You played it as hit and run with ample stealth; engaging rapidly, bursting rapidly, disengaging rapidly. This worked, mostly. If an engineer or necro or trap ranger or something got the jump on you, you died without any question.

Power Mesmer is not viable in the current meta, and so neither is that tactic. Any sort of condie build has a much longer time period of engagement that they need to be impactful on a fight. This is true for power interrupt builds too, not that they’re viable either. Needing to stay in a fight longer means you can’t just blink away in stealth and nurse yourself back to health every time an engineer sneezes on you.

If you run without any condition removal in this meta, you’ll generally end up dead or dying most fights. You won’t accomplish anything useful outside of adding screen clutter. A single necro mark can incapacitate you for most of a fight without removals. What are you going to do with chill, poison, and weakness on you for 10 seconds? What are you going to do if the necro spends 3 seconds to cast more than 1 mark? What will you do when an engineer walks by and covers a point in condition aoe?

Essentially, taking no condition removal means that you can’t fully engage into any fight. Fighting on any point will be abject suicide, and you’ll be eaten alive by many current builds in a 1v1 scenario. Phokus argues that you can just disengage when necessary to stay alive. This is technically true, and will result in you awkwardly standing between points accomplishing nothing for most of be game, hoping that nobody notices you slowly bleeding out in the corner.

Jace al Thor.6745:

denis.9487:

StickerHappy.8052:

phokus.8934:

StickerHappy.8052:

phokus.8934:

StickerHappy.8052:

phokus.8934:

You don’t need condition removal as a mandatory function to make Mesmer work.

Know your enemy first and foremost and learn to disengage when you need to.

This is false. I do not know on what MMR you play at but in High MMR matches, you might as well just afk if you do not have any cleanses.

Knowing your enemy is like 5% of the equation. You will never ever beat any condition class without a cleanse. It’s impossible. (Assuming equal skill)

Every class needs condition removal of atleast 1 source.

What you said makes you sound like a bad player who needs a crutch.

Again, I do not know what MMR you play in, so I am assuming you are facing average players.

And you’re clearly a bad player. Case in point, this thread.

Okay, 1v1 my ranger with no condi cleanse. Let’s bet gold on it. NO condi cleanse means no sigils either.

And please no PU.

I can understand the condition cleanse stipulation. But still the hate on pu???

If it’s a 1v1 why would you need PU? I don’t care much for PU because I love Bountiful Disillusionment too much now over it but if you have to rely on PU to win then you’re as bad a player as phokus claims Stickers is.

This is basically the definition of scrub logic. While stickers is right that you’re not going to see PU in most competitive matches, claiming that a win to PU is a false win is nothing other than creating false win conditions that have nothing to do with the actual game.

Xyonon.3987:

Also make sure you don’t catch any other shields 5’s or you will get no CDR at all.

Oh?

Fivedawgs.4267:

Fay.2357:

skullfaerie.7203:

Fay.2357:

A competitive ladder

This ladder system is supposed to be competitive? Thanks for the giggles.

Supposed to be? Absolutely. Is? That’s where you’re allowed to giggle.

Fivedawgs.4267:

Fay, just because your games are competitive doesn’t mean everyone is having the same experience; The system is so random atm, that some people aren’t having same gaming experience as you?? Why because the system match X against X. So, it’s totally random; so try not to be close minded and look down on folks who are having issues with the system.

The system being a competitive ladder has nothing to do with individual games being competitive or not. It’s a competitive ladder in the sense that progression is NOT guaranteed, and only by consistently high performance will you progress on the later parts of it. It is not designed to be a reward system purely due to quantity of games played. It is designed as a merit-based, competitive ladder.

Did it succeed in this? Maybe. Probably not. However, regardless of the success, that’s how the design is built.

So, where is the competition when Wakkey duo or Best Team NA or pro players are match against low MMR players??? Where did i say anything about progression being garanteed? ?? TF are you on dude?? Can you even read???? I am saying winning a game 500 to 100 or losing one by the same margin is NOT COMPETITIVE. THAT’S WHAT FOLKS IN AMBER., LOW TIER EMERALD are experiencing. And Learn to read dude.

You clearly didn’t read anything I wrote. Please try again.

DeceiverX.8361:

Fay.2357:

Ahahahahahahahahaha.

Oh wait, they’re serious.

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Serious that the issue stems from dire/perplexity gear being overpowered and the root cause of the problem in the case of PU mes, rather than the mesmer design itself? Yea, actually. Unless you’d like to argue that dire/perplex isn’t OP for roaming, in which case you’ll basically get laughed out of WvW.

Overpowered in solo roaming? Sure…so what? Solo roaming doesn’t really matter much unless you’re in T4 and below. Dire/perplex loses effectively drastically once even small (3-man) roaming groups are taken into account, so who cares?

Edit: And did you even read the op? Whining about how mesmers can solo camps on their own? Come on, you make a fool of yourself by defending this rubbish.

skullfaerie.7203:

Fay.2357:

A competitive ladder

This ladder system is supposed to be competitive? Thanks for the giggles.

Supposed to be? Absolutely. Is? That’s where you’re allowed to giggle.

Fivedawgs.4267:

Fay, just because your games are competitive doesn’t mean everyone is having the same experience; The system is so random atm, that some people aren’t having same gaming experience as you?? Why because the system match X against X. So, it’s totally random; so try not to be close minded and look down on folks who are having issues with the system.

The system being a competitive ladder has nothing to do with individual games being competitive or not. It’s a competitive ladder in the sense that progression is NOT guaranteed, and only by consistently high performance will you progress on the later parts of it. It is not designed to be a reward system purely due to quantity of games played. It is designed as a merit-based, competitive ladder.

Did it succeed in this? Maybe. Probably not. However, regardless of the success, that’s how the design is built.

Ahahahahahahahahaha.

Oh wait, they’re serious.

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Barzhal.2640:

Salamander.2504:

If you’re a good player, but “not the best”, Ruby seems to fit. It sounds like you’ve come close to your appropriate league position, at least as a solo-queuer. That’s good news! (Leagues are not a reward track.)

Good news indeed! Your ranked season is over, thanks for playing.

I’m sorry, it sounds like you want a reward track, not a competitive ladder. A competitive ladder means you have to earn your way up. A reward track plops out rewards just for playing.

I’m not sure what the point of this build is. Keeping null field up for 28 seconds is cool and all (doing that combo with feedback is nothing but a waste of time), but it’s going to accomplish a rather limited amount of things.

I just don’t see the point in bringing this build…it doesn’t do anything. You have no damage. You have pretty much zero capability to bunker. There’s no build in the game that you could 1v1 on this. Pretty much your single contribution to a team is spamming null fields. How is that worth taking up a slot on a team?

Sanderinoa.8065:

Fay.2357:

Sandy’s guide is good except for the incorrect assertion that F5 will get you back alive from downed state. That’s more a PvP consideration though; just don’t try to tank VG circles with it or something.

I like that you have read it in enough detail to have noticed that. Is it confirmed to be that way though? Ive thought to have had CS simply reset when I was about to go down, but Ive heard different, inconsistent ideas. Ill remove it if its simply wrong in all cases.

Yeah, the CS effect will not save you from downed or death. I honestly don’t know what happens if you get revived before it would naturally trigger though. I’d guess it gets fully canceled when you get downed, but it’s not something I’ve tested.

Edit: One other thing. In your condie Mesmer section you recommend using illusionary counter off cooldown. Unless they totally changed how it works, using that skill will brick a phantasm, so it’s essentially a total nogo for all PvE purposes.

I’d also note that temporal curtain has been changed to pull mobs to the center point of the curtain. Pulling to a wall is no longer necessary for mob grouping.

There may be issues with matchmaking, but this screenie shows none of them.

4-1 vs 3 and 2 solo. This is pretty reasonable, nothing wrong with this.

A bunch of sapphires matched with a bunch of sapphires. This is pretty reasonable.

A premade guild team at the top of challenger ladder stomping x players here. This is pretty reasonable.

What exactly do you expect them to do with matchmaking? You all are whining about the exact opposite thing as last time. Last time everyone and their mother was kittening that the mmr system tried to force a 50% winrate which made it very difficult people to rank up and encouraged mmr tanking.

This time everyone and their mother is kittening that the system doesn’t try to match high mmr people with high mmr people. You know what doing that forces? It forces a 50% winrate; the exact thing you kittened about last season.

Note that this isn’t a case of ‘some people want one thing and other people want something else. The op of this thread was whining about how mmr was being used last season grouping high mmr people against each other. The op is now whining that it isn’t doing that. The vast majority of the complaining here isn’t due to legitimate concerns; it’s due to people losing matches, having zero awareness of how and why the matchmaking works, and then immediately heading to the forums to whine instead of trying to become better informed. Quite honestly it makes me sick.

It took something like 3-4 patches containing the note ‘Phantasmal haste now works’ before phantasmal haste actually worked. I expect nothing less for this one.

Just a note on rev damage. While mesmer sustained damage if running a pure dps condie build will be potentially higher than a rev, for all normal intents and purposes rev damage blows mesmer out of the water. The cleave, the instant single target with sword 2, mesmer has nothing that compares.

Anyway, the metabattle build is generally correct…but missing several things. Sandy’s guide is good except for the incorrect assertion that F5 will get you back alive from downed state. That’s more a PvP consideration though; just don’t try to tank VG circles with it or something.

ShadowCatz.8437:

Velho.7123:

When a buff to your stats is enemy-dependant, such as “have 30% more crit when hitting a slowed enemy”, you can be fighting multiple foes and some of them may not have Slow. Instead of adding to your stat panel, since it would be a major confusion against more than one mob, they are not shown to you, just inherently affected on each mob. That 20% you have is probably just Fury.

It doesn’t matter if I fight one or many enemies as I have now recorded fights with an open Hero Panel and never ever I will go above my Fury (from Runes of Rage; which I had forgot when I first posted). From what I can see I only have 74% crit chance at highest in video and never above it.

This means that Danger Time never work (or at least show numbers for it in Hero Panel) when I have slow on target (it should show a jump up from 54 (base crit chance with gear and food) +20 (Fury from Runes) +30 (DT)=104%).

Can anybody else confirm if Danger Time really works and not make unconfirmed statements about how DT are supposed to work?

I’ll weigh in then. If danger time is showing up in the character window, it is exhibiting broken behavior. Boosts that are dependent on the target’s state do not show up in the character window due to the quality of how they work; it would be meaningless and confusing, especially for aoe skills.

What you just stated only confirms what we’re saying. You have 54% base chance, +20% fury shows up from runes (74%)…and that’s it. In your op you stated you see it go from 54 to 74. That’s from fury. End of story. There is no argument here.

InsidiousWaffle.7086:

you shouldnt have been infracted for not saying the name of the player…

He posted screenshots of the guy.

Like it or not, your thread was in direct and obvious conflict with the explicitly set rules of the forum. Complaining about getting punished for breaking the rules is like punching a cop and then whining that you got thrown in jail.

Ansau.7326:

I also got feared and attacked with Unrelenting Assault (#3 sword revenant) while using BF.

Fear procced from nightmare runes will pierce evade. Any sort of on-hit event will go through evades.

Alex Shatter.7956:

Fay.2357:

Alex Shatter.7956:

Fay.2357:

Alex Shatter.7956:

bearshaman.3421:

Alex Shatter.7956:

2) My mesmer tends to die less than other professions in high level fractals, as she is very good at pivoting.

In short, mesmer is great at surviving and multitasking, and can keep their DPS sustained in stressful situations better than other professions who hit hard, but don’t pivot well.

What is pivoting?

Getting from point A to point B without dying, wasting excess time trying to heal / defend, or aggro-ing environmental NPCs. In short, “pivot” = “reposition efficiently”.

My elementalist, for example, in all her glory and zoja gear, is terrible at this. if it’s mid boss, and someone on my team screws up, my elementalist is the first to die. she is slow, and is only efficient when she can stay in the same place for long periods at a time. if she needs to reposition or disengage to resurrect someone, or if it’s a fractal where there is AoE up the butt (Aetherblade), she becomes dead weight very fast. When she is in a tough spot, she basically has to check herself out of the mission for a good 10 seconds to spam Wash the Pain Away!, water overload, and other defensive skills until she can get to a spot where she can be effective again. This loss of efficiency in stressful situations makes her DPS a fraction of it’s maximum potential (28k or something, I think is a recent estimate).

my mesmer, however, can flexibly move around the battlefield and reposition when necessary. the clones, access to Staff 2 and blink, and insta-cast distortion make her much more efficient at disengaging and repositioning when something goes wrong or half the team dies and she needs to be on res-support. All the while she is moving around, her iWarlocks and iBerserkers/iSwordsmen are still doing decent damage to the main target. Ive noticed that in situations with lots of excess AoE or ambient npcs (Volcano), mesmers just tend to survive longer. I attribute this to their ability to move around efficiently unhindered, aka, pivoting. She can handle all of this with full zerker gear, chrono / dom / illusion, and not really suffer any DPS loss from her ideal, 10k (is this the most recent estimate for chrono?)

So my ele’s realistic DPS in stressful fractals hits somewhere at 15k, and my mesmer has no problem hitting her max of 10k per second. So the gap isn’t as dramatic as people make it in higher level situations.

Mesmer’s ability to “pivot” has always been coveted in sPvP, but until recently, it hasn’t been as useful in PvE where for the most part, things just stand still and you hit them. Now that more challenging content is coming out, and mobility is more of an issue, I think that is slowly going to change.

Honestly, if your team is having those problems then you’re playing with objectively awful people. Granted, this happens sometimes, but those are the last people you want to compare yourself to.

It happens much more often than people assume on these forums, though. I think people designing “what is meta” and “what is highest DPS” are the tippy-top of the GW2 skill ladder, and for casual players, these DPS estimates for each class are unrealistic. For the average elementalist or engineer who has clocked a year in the class, they shouldn’t expect do be doing triple the damage as a mesmer in level 60+ fractals. Sure, they will do more damage than the mesmer, but few people on this game have the skill to actually tick 29k per second as any profession. I’m just saying for most realistic situations, mesmer DPS isn’t as bad as people give it.

Again though, it doesn’t really matter how often you get awful players. The point is that if you’re comparing yourself to awful players, the comparison is meaningless.

“I do more damage than a guy that dies all the time.”

Ok. Do you want a medal? The PvP version of this comparison would be:

“I have a 100% winrate when playing against people that are way worse than me.”

Ok. I mean, it’s true…but it’s also totally meaningless.

It’s more of a “most mesmers do more DPS than professions that die all the time because mesmer was built on being able to avoid damage, and ele was built to do a lot of damage, but die a lot”

i think it’s reasonable to assume elementalists and revenants die more often than mesmers, at equal skill levels. Anet has taken very careful measures to ensure those classes are squishy, while scrappers, warriors and mesmers are less squishy. that is a fact. i just think mesmer’s ability to sustain should be taken into account. you provided the counter example that, “well no one should be dying at all on a good team!”, but i don’t think that’s a good sampling of what actually happens in 60+ fractals. even on good teams, revenants and eles get smashed when something goes wrong.

No, the assumption that eles and revs die more than mesmers at equal skill levels is absolute bull. Revs have just as much mitigation as mesmers do, possibly more. Eles have huge amounts of sustain if they just swap to water and back off for a minute. Mesmers hardly have a monopoly on survivability.

Ultimately, your statement still ends up as “I do more damage than people that are really bad at the game.” True….but pointless.

Alex Shatter.7956:

Fay.2357:

Alex Shatter.7956:

bearshaman.3421:

Alex Shatter.7956:

2) My mesmer tends to die less than other professions in high level fractals, as she is very good at pivoting.

In short, mesmer is great at surviving and multitasking, and can keep their DPS sustained in stressful situations better than other professions who hit hard, but don’t pivot well.

What is pivoting?

Getting from point A to point B without dying, wasting excess time trying to heal / defend, or aggro-ing environmental NPCs. In short, “pivot” = “reposition efficiently”.

My elementalist, for example, in all her glory and zoja gear, is terrible at this. if it’s mid boss, and someone on my team screws up, my elementalist is the first to die. she is slow, and is only efficient when she can stay in the same place for long periods at a time. if she needs to reposition or disengage to resurrect someone, or if it’s a fractal where there is AoE up the butt (Aetherblade), she becomes dead weight very fast. When she is in a tough spot, she basically has to check herself out of the mission for a good 10 seconds to spam Wash the Pain Away!, water overload, and other defensive skills until she can get to a spot where she can be effective again. This loss of efficiency in stressful situations makes her DPS a fraction of it’s maximum potential (28k or something, I think is a recent estimate).

my mesmer, however, can flexibly move around the battlefield and reposition when necessary. the clones, access to Staff 2 and blink, and insta-cast distortion make her much more efficient at disengaging and repositioning when something goes wrong or half the team dies and she needs to be on res-support. All the while she is moving around, her iWarlocks and iBerserkers/iSwordsmen are still doing decent damage to the main target. Ive noticed that in situations with lots of excess AoE or ambient npcs (Volcano), mesmers just tend to survive longer. I attribute this to their ability to move around efficiently unhindered, aka, pivoting. She can handle all of this with full zerker gear, chrono / dom / illusion, and not really suffer any DPS loss from her ideal, 10k (is this the most recent estimate for chrono?)

So my ele’s realistic DPS in stressful fractals hits somewhere at 15k, and my mesmer has no problem hitting her max of 10k per second. So the gap isn’t as dramatic as people make it in higher level situations.

Mesmer’s ability to “pivot” has always been coveted in sPvP, but until recently, it hasn’t been as useful in PvE where for the most part, things just stand still and you hit them. Now that more challenging content is coming out, and mobility is more of an issue, I think that is slowly going to change.

Honestly, if your team is having those problems then you’re playing with objectively awful people. Granted, this happens sometimes, but those are the last people you want to compare yourself to.

It happens much more often than people assume on these forums, though. I think people designing “what is meta” and “what is highest DPS” are the tippy-top of the GW2 skill ladder, and for casual players, these DPS estimates for each class are unrealistic. For the average elementalist or engineer who has clocked a year in the class, they shouldn’t expect do be doing triple the damage as a mesmer in level 60+ fractals. Sure, they will do more damage than the mesmer, but few people on this game have the skill to actually tick 29k per second as any profession. I’m just saying for most realistic situations, mesmer DPS isn’t as bad as people give it.

Again though, it doesn’t really matter how often you get awful players. The point is that if you’re comparing yourself to awful players, the comparison is meaningless.

“I do more damage than a guy that dies all the time.”

Ok. Do you want a medal? The PvP version of this comparison would be:

“I have a 100% winrate when playing against people that are way worse than me.”

Ok. I mean, it’s true…but it’s also totally meaningless.

Alex Shatter.7956:

bearshaman.3421:

Alex Shatter.7956:

2) My mesmer tends to die less than other professions in high level fractals, as she is very good at pivoting.

In short, mesmer is great at surviving and multitasking, and can keep their DPS sustained in stressful situations better than other professions who hit hard, but don’t pivot well.

What is pivoting?

Getting from point A to point B without dying, wasting excess time trying to heal / defend, or aggro-ing environmental NPCs. In short, “pivot” = “reposition efficiently”.

My elementalist, for example, in all her glory and zoja gear, is terrible at this. if it’s mid boss, and someone on my team screws up, my elementalist is the first to die. she is slow, and is only efficient when she can stay in the same place for long periods at a time. if she needs to reposition or disengage to resurrect someone, or if it’s a fractal where there is AoE up the butt (Aetherblade), she becomes dead weight very fast. When she is in a tough spot, she basically has to check herself out of the mission for a good 10 seconds to spam Wash the Pain Away!, water overload, and other defensive skills until she can get to a spot where she can be effective again. This loss of efficiency in stressful situations makes her DPS a fraction of it’s maximum potential (28k or something, I think is a recent estimate).

my mesmer, however, can flexibly move around the battlefield and reposition when necessary. the clones, access to Staff 2 and blink, and insta-cast distortion make her much more efficient at disengaging and repositioning when something goes wrong or half the team dies and she needs to be on res-support. All the while she is moving around, her iWarlocks and iBerserkers/iSwordsmen are still doing decent damage to the main target. Ive noticed that in situations with lots of excess AoE or ambient npcs (Volcano), mesmers just tend to survive longer. I attribute this to their ability to move around efficiently unhindered, aka, pivoting. She can handle all of this with full zerker gear, chrono / dom / illusion, and not really suffer any DPS loss from her ideal, 10k (is this the most recent estimate for chrono?)

So my ele’s realistic DPS in stressful fractals hits somewhere at 15k, and my mesmer has no problem hitting her max of 10k per second. So the gap isn’t as dramatic as people make it in higher level situations.

Mesmer’s ability to “pivot” has always been coveted in sPvP, but until recently, it hasn’t been as useful in PvE where for the most part, things just stand still and you hit them. Now that more challenging content is coming out, and mobility is more of an issue, I think that is slowly going to change.

Honestly, if your team is having those problems then you’re playing with objectively awful people. Granted, this happens sometimes, but those are the last people you want to compare yourself to.

DeWolfe.2174:

What I’m finding very odd is that I’m stuck in a tier. I get 1 pip away and lose the whole tier. I get 1 pip away and lose the whole tier. I get 1 pip away and lose the whole tier. It’s just keeps cycling like this all day long.

Sounds like roughly a 50% winrate, which would be expected if you’ve arrived at a tier reflecting your average skill level.

Zenral.3958:

Fay.2357:

Ohoni.6057:

No, that’s nonsense. That actually proves the opposite point you seem to believe it does. If a really great player is truly randomly placed each match, then from time to time he’d find himself on a hopeless team, and lose the match even if he personally killed twice as many players as anyone on the opposing team and held points or whatever the maximum total contribution a single character could make. In a fair distribution, even the very best players out there would lose a match from time to time in solo queue.

What seems to be happening instead is that certain players keep getting matched with other good players. And since they win that match, the system says “hey, this guy is good, let’s match him with more good players!” And then he wins that match, and the system says “hey, this guy is good, let’s match him with more good players!” and repeat until he gets into the top tiers, whether or not that player was significantly responsible for his team’s outcome in each match (and therefore better than average himself).

Your entire argument boils down to ‘The system is randomly picking some people and making them win’. This is the very quintessence of absurdity.

It’s true though, that’s the sad part.

[citation needed]

Ohoni.6057:

No, that’s nonsense. That actually proves the opposite point you seem to believe it does. If a really great player is truly randomly placed each match, then from time to time he’d find himself on a hopeless team, and lose the match even if he personally killed twice as many players as anyone on the opposing team and held points or whatever the maximum total contribution a single character could make. In a fair distribution, even the very best players out there would lose a match from time to time in solo queue.

What seems to be happening instead is that certain players keep getting matched with other good players. And since they win that match, the system says “hey, this guy is good, let’s match him with more good players!” And then he wins that match, and the system says “hey, this guy is good, let’s match him with more good players!” and repeat until he gets into the top tiers, whether or not that player was significantly responsible for his team’s outcome in each match (and therefore better than average himself).

Your entire argument boils down to ‘The system is randomly picking some people and making them win’. This is the very quintessence of absurdity.

Ohoni.6057:

How would you know that? Do you assume that you are one of these “good/excellent” players, and that’s why you’re rising? Could it not be that you are no more “good/excellent” than the players who are struggling, you just happen to end up on “good/excellent” teams, and since you win those matches, you get placed on even more “good/excellent” team, and so on, giving you a glide path to Legendary?

Winning one or two in a row is randomly getting on a team with good/excellent players. Winning 15 in a row means your team is obviously consistently far better than the other team. The only constant in all 15 games is you, so obviously you are a good player.

Ohoni.6057:

Nope. It’s a team sport. If you end up on a team that is bad, you will lose, no amount of personal skill will make much difference. You might be able to lose 150/500 rather than 50/500, but you’ll lose nonetheless because the better team opposing you will hold 1.5 points the entire match while you can at best keep one alive, on average. You could argue that the entire team you’re assigned should “learn to play,” but no individual member is responsible for that if he already “knows how to play.”

Losing 2 or 3 games is randomly getting a bad team. Losing 15 games means your team is consistently much worse than the other team. The only constant in those 15 games is you, so clearly you are bad. We’ve had this conversation before though, and you’ve denied the obvious logic of it so I doubt this will get anywhere.

Suffice to say, blaming your record on anyone but yourself is nothing but self-delusion that will result in you never getting better. Own up to your bad play and figure out how to fix it, don’t go complaining on the forums about how the matchmaking system is making you lose. Trying to claim that people who are winning are being carried by the system is just ridiculous and immature. People that win consistently are clearly better than those who don’t, that’s simply how it works. Deal with it.

apharma.3741:

Um don’t daredevils and revenants barely get any boost from alacrity and at that point another DPS class is better as it just straight up does more damage than the boost a Mesmer gives?

Also please stop calling it passive DPS, it is not passive. You are buffing party dps, there is exactly 0 passive play in the entire thing and you only make your arguments harder to follow by using made up phrases.

Oh and to the OP, my ele is usually in a party with a rev and PS warrior, there’s no fury I need to provide so I can use wash away the pain. It’s quite frankly an insane heal and helps a lot to sustain the party. Also depending on build (D/Wh FA) you can go water -> 4 -> 3 to generate a water field and blast in in about 1s and then you’re straight back into air rotation. Ele does give up a lot of potential support for DPS but they still have lots even in DPS.

Daredevils get no boost from alacrity. Venomshare thieves get a normal boost from alacrity. Revenants now get a moderate boost from alacrity due to the buff to their sword 2 skill.

Gwaihir.1745:

Mesmer has fine dps. Yeah you click one more button to do it but quit kittening.

[citation needed]

Condie is gonna max out around 18k dps. You won’t be cracking 20k on any sort of mesmer build unless you’re getting insane amounts of lucky finishers from your duelists on fire fields. However, as I’ve gone over many times in the past, dps mesmer is awful for many other reasons.

Blurred frenzy provides evade. There’s plenty of effects that can’t be evaded.

Quadox.7834:

StickerHappy.8052:

Quadox.7834:

StickerHappy.8052:

phokus.8934:

You don’t need condition removal as a mandatory function to make Mesmer work.

Know your enemy first and foremost and learn to disengage when you need to.

This is false. I do not know on what MMR you play at but in High MMR matches, you might as well just afk if you do not have any cleanses.

Knowing your enemy is like 5% of the equation. You will never ever beat any condition class without a cleanse. It’s impossible. (Assuming equal skill)

Every class needs condition removal of atleast 1 source.

Okay, go right ahead and grab generosity sigil.

Generosity sigil? I was talking about Class condition removal. Generosity sigil is RNG, you cant control when you want to use it. you know this right?

Swap to sword use blurred fenzy or shatter > done.

> Removes 10 vuln
> Still have 8 burn, 7 bleed, 5 poison, chill, and immob
> Dies

Matty.1953:

Levetty.1279:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

In a +1, you should be able to kill Druids.

1v1, you should be able to kill mallyx revenants. Let alone +1.
Glint Shiro is quite a bit tougher, but still manageable.

Scrapper is without a doubt better than mesmer.

And necro… necro is necro.

How the hell can you beat a Mallyx Rev with a condi Mes?

Cos Condi Mes can cope with Mallyx Rev. I duel against an excellent rev main and so far have yet to have any problems, however it might be that he hasn’t had time to learn to play against it. Even so, Condi Mes has the ability to clear any conditions, it doesn’t function that much on boons and has the ability to outkite… I don’t really see why they shouldn’t be able to beat a Condi Rev.

A condie mes that doesn’t take domination can still technically kill a mallyx rev, but it’ll take an hour or two if the rev is property up keeping their resistance.

MailMail.6534:

I’m not quite qualified to make an opinion yet on the current meta as I haven’t played much and it’s only been two days. However, let’s please make it clear that Mesmer has access to a wiiiide variety of condition removal. The viability of these options is what should be discussed. The real meat of this situation comes down to build diversity.

Currently, I’m running a Vipers condi shatter build with Mistrust using nothing but Generosity Sigils… and with positive results. You will be screwed by Necros no matter what build you run (support, boons, dps, interrupt, condi), but is this worthy of buffing Mesmers or nerfing Necros? That is the bigger rhetorical question in this debate.

Running no removals outside of generosity sigils is something power shatter builds have done for ages. As always, it’s always been a good solution when you’re not fighting anything that actually loads condies, and woefully inadequate against anything that does. If you ever come up against another build that’s actually loading condies, you’ll just wither up and die. Try surviving against a condie engie when 1 attack loads you with 5 condies and your only removal is generosity.

DeceiverX.8361:

The coefficient is higher on BF than backstab.

What a lot of people seriously fail to recognize is that traits often make up for more than half of the thief’s damage, up to almost 80% of it depending on build; the damage comes at the cost of sacrificing defenses because those defensive options are pretty much objectively horrible.

You’re likely not running a trait setup conducive to ramping BF damage. I played a S/S mesmer a long time ago built on BF and got its damage to peak around 6-7k per cast when combo’d correctly. Further, it depends heavily on the format; an 8k backstab in sPvP is actually on the high end and implies the use of sub-optimal trait choices or external might stacking. in WvW 8k is average/low, but so is a 6-7k BF.

BF and backstab have the same coefficient: 2.4. The difference is that thief has a massive number of % damage modifiers that will generally add to backstab, and mesmer has zero. It’s not that people “aren’t running builds to maximize BF damage”…it’s that mesmer’s literally don’t have any damage amps outside of situational ones for shatters and lolmantras.

Lexander.4579:

Aurugal.6954:

Jace al Thor.6745:

Pyro…. I can’t believe the amount of stupid we’ve had lately on the Mesmer forum. Between the person thinking Open World PvE needs specialized builds and makes a “profit”, the person that thinks condi Mesmer is the best thing since sliced bread because one team ran it over the weekend, and now this guy. There must have been a convention were they passed out some of the good stuff and we weren’t called in on it.

On topic, condi Mesmer, to me, hasn’t been as good since they deleted clone death traits. Why? Because now our three most easily applied conditions are torment, bleed, and confusion. Unless you run dueling I don’t find bleeds to be worth it so that leaves torment and confusion. Both of which have received nerfs over the years. The most important one recently was the nerf to MtD so that the torment stacks we applied on shatter was 1 from 2. Which sucks. Now you’re essentially bursting someone and if they clear it, dogde, or invuln through it like you would a power shatter you’re screwed until you can set up another burst.
Which basically means the only reason for any team to take Mesmer now after quickness nerfs is portal. And it’s not strong if you can’t use it properly.

Well I will try to be as unbiased as popular, moa is the strongest elite in the game especially in a coordinated team based environment which the game should be balanced around anyways. That being said condi mes is great for ranked because it pub stomps the plebs really hard for two reasons. 1) They don’t know how to wait out confusion stacks when their condi clear is down, they have been groomed to think that more buttons=better results which is why condi mes can be incredibly satisfying to play; you just know blatantly when the guy is new/bad.
2) Most people in GW2 have been conditioned to think that the only ‘honorable’ (lmao) way of playing is through power damage, probably because condi is admittedly superior in wvw scenarios vs most things so the only players they feel deservingly and fairly beat them are those who do so through power builds. Because of this, they build their traits, sigils and such to be optimized vs power builds and then when a build comes along that PUNISHES them for their greedy build they decide to take it up on the forums instead of yielding to the fact that just mayyyybe that fire sigil or pulmonary impact wasn’t the best choice vs 2 reapers and a condi mes. I donno man I get kicks from watching a war pop berserker stance when 2 confusion is on him and then when i unload the cds and he drops ‘WOW CONDI OP’. Get checked seriously.

yep, the most powerful elite skill in the game coupled with the most powerful utility skill in the game (portal), in a single class which can also instantly reset cooldowns or speed them up, some great design ideas right there

also very nice piece of advice to “wait out” confusion stacks, whats next? “waiting out” torment stacks not moving from a spot? :^)

Heh. You refer to mesmers as ‘gods’ in another thread, we’ve got the most powerful skills in the game according to you…and you still want us to believe that you don’t get shrekt every time you see one.

Keep dreaming.

bearshaman.3421:

You’re talking to someone who hasn’t posted in this thread. 0_o

cough

lastnite.8690:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp0ltIN0Tkc

found the video i was mentioning (it is not me, who recorded this)

This build uses rampager gears, not viper. it uses signets to keep up the condi duration.

So the 30k bleed tick didn’t actually happen. That was 100% a floater overlap issue. The tick before it was 12k. The tick after it was 12k. He didn’t spike 3x the quantity of bleeds for 1 tick and then spike back down the next.

That being said, that video simply confirms what I’ve been saying. Condie mesmer has competitive single target damage on paper, but in reality suffers from a lot of problems. For example, the red guardian was 50% dead before he was even reaching his maximum bleed stacks for that fight….and he didn’t even bother trying to summon 3 duelists because it would take too long. Additionally, this build would be absolute garbage on gorseval because aoe damage to clear the adds/wall is essential. On sabetha it would be garbage if you ever ended up in a position with 2 of the bosses on the platform at once.

Basically, the build is great at target golem dps and awful at dps in a real situation.

messiah.1908:

omg
guys sry but I want to claim all condi mesmer builds . i just bough a notebook and started to give them names and cool ones… than i gave it to my gf who gave it to her bf which gave it to someone with no mouth protection who post it here.

:D

Well, as long as the names are cool ones I’ll allow it.

Lexander.4579:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Lexander.4579:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Lexander.4579:

Fay.2357:

Lexander.4579:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Lexander.4579:

Fay.2357:

Lexander.4579:

Fay.2357:

Lexander.4579:

because mesmer has easy access to the most damaging conditions – torment and confusion

and after they apply 5 stacks of confusion and 7 stacks of torment while hiding in stealth or spamming blind preventing counter-attack they just spam their endless defensive cds while you take 1.5k damage per second

Sounds like somebody has no idea how to fight a condie mesmer, refuses to learn, and as a result ends up eating dirt every time he sees one.

Might I offer the advice of….l2p?

what a pathetic attempt of a personal attack, most definitely i dont lose to them

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

if salty mesmer mains cant accept they are unable to play the class without the unkillable chronobunker build they can always reroll to scrapper or rev

If salty thief mains can’t accept that they have no functional reason to ever lose to a mesmer unless they’re bad, they can always uninstall the game.

never said i lose to mesmers, my build excels in 1v1

Sure, whatever you say.

If you actually never lost to mesmers, you wouldn’t be here whining about them. Obviously there’s a little bit of defensive fabrication going on.

im here because im worried for the state of game’s health

Because Mesmers are definitely the linchpin with the state of the game’s health.

And not Eles, Revenants, or Scrappers.

None of those 3 classes need their forums trolled or anything.

No no. The deciding factor in this new meta is mesmer.

well if anet nerfed terrible mechanics in mesmer’s class they could probably buff something else which has counterplay and is not so unfun to play against

Yeah because portal, condis, stealth, and block HAVE NO COUNTER PLAY.

Those 2 seconds of stealth we have from that 1 kittening stealth skill we actually carry on our bar are SO UNBELIEVABLY UNBALANCED!

THAT ONE IMMOBILE BLUR WE HAVE IS SO UNBALANCED.

sigh
Baka

you forgot also shield and portal and invul from F4 and then you press F5 and can rotate all those again while having alacrity for reduced cooldowns in case if F5 is unavailable

good design indeed

You clearly have no idea how the F5 mechanic works at all. You clearly are salty about getting pounded by mesmers and you don’t understand why, so you come to the forums to whine instead of trying to learn and become better.

insanemaniac.2456:

they said little and yall expect meta changing big…

No, we expected more than a bunch of tooltip fixes and visual bug fixes that have zero effect on the actual game.

Lexander.4579:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Lexander.4579:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Lexander.4579:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Lexander.4579:

dont know i’d say mesmers need something done about their portals and the endless spam of defensive cds

Personally, I have to question why we even have thieves in this game.
Isn’t being killed by a class that has perma-stealth far too cheap? I mean, what is the counter?
Hope that you know the thief is close enough, and then play one of the classes that can actually reveal the thief?

We wouldn’t even need reveals if thief didn’t exist. It’s a half-baked counter to a class with no other counter.

See, I can be salty too.

stealth is a fine mechanic, just kittened 5-2 spamming d/p thieves make it look bad and give the bad reputation to the entire thief class

as opposed to mesmers where every single build is annoying and gives the class its bad reputation

5-2 spamming, shadow refuge, D/D, smoke + shortbow 2, do I really need to continue?

Every single thief build is annoying.
Pistol/Dagger used to actually be my favorite set, because it was one of the most hilarious never-dying troll setups in this entire game.

when im speaking of annoying i dont mean simply “lel cant kill me” builds, i mean builds that also make a strong impact on the game as well

So that means literally 0 mesmer builds.
Look mate, you’re playing a thief.
Your entire job is roaming around decapping, +1’ing, and preventing the enemy roamer from doing anything.

The mesmer’s entire job is roaming around,decapping, +1ing, and placing meaningful portals for its team.

Do you see the conflict of interest here?
Do you?
Just go kill the mesmer, it’ll never do ANYTHING beneficial for its team, ever again.

Even if a mesmer burns moa on you, and manages to either kill you/get away, GUESS WHAT! You just wasted a LONG VALUABLE COOLDOWN of the mesmers.

You just did your job, by preventing the mesmer from doing his job.

It’s not a hard concept mate.

funny, often enough there are matches when i never encounter enemy thief roamers because they are mostly busy with our mid/close while im holding their close

Then they’re playing well and you’re not. Thieves aren’t supposed to just sit on enemy close and try to hold it, that’s a waste of your toolset. You’re supposed to roam the map, taking opportunity to unbalance the fight. That might mean decapping/capping, or it might mean providing a +1 burst to end a skirmish. It doesn’t mean afking on far.

Lexander.4579:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Lexander.4579:

Fay.2357:

Lexander.4579:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Lexander.4579:

Fay.2357:

Lexander.4579:

Fay.2357:

Lexander.4579:

because mesmer has easy access to the most damaging conditions – torment and confusion

and after they apply 5 stacks of confusion and 7 stacks of torment while hiding in stealth or spamming blind preventing counter-attack they just spam their endless defensive cds while you take 1.5k damage per second

Sounds like somebody has no idea how to fight a condie mesmer, refuses to learn, and as a result ends up eating dirt every time he sees one.

Might I offer the advice of….l2p?

what a pathetic attempt of a personal attack, most definitely i dont lose to them

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

if salty mesmer mains cant accept they are unable to play the class without the unkillable chronobunker build they can always reroll to scrapper or rev

If salty thief mains can’t accept that they have no functional reason to ever lose to a mesmer unless they’re bad, they can always uninstall the game.

never said i lose to mesmers, my build excels in 1v1

Sure, whatever you say.

If you actually never lost to mesmers, you wouldn’t be here whining about them. Obviously there’s a little bit of defensive fabrication going on.

im here because im worried for the state of game’s health

Because Mesmers are definitely the linchpin with the state of the game’s health.

And not Eles, Revenants, or Scrappers.

None of those 3 classes need their forums trolled or anything.

No no. The deciding factor in this new meta is mesmer.

well if anet nerfed terrible mechanics in mesmer’s class they could probably buff something else which has counterplay and is not so unfun to play against

Or, and bear with me for this one, or…you could learn to actually play against the Mesmer class. That way you wouldn’t have to sit on the forums whining about it when we beat you all the time.

Best case scenario dps for viper Mesmer is somewhere around 16k-18k dps. On paper this is actually competitive, but it’s the details that make it garbage.

Ramp-up time of laying duelists means that every phase change resets your dps for another 20+ seconds. Your damage is purely single target. You provide absolutely nothing useful to the group outside of the dps if you’re running a build to maximize that. Your dps doesn’t scale with quickness or alacrity on you, so it’s not even a benefit to have a chrono buffing you either.

Lexander.4579:

Fay.2357:

Lexander.4579:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Lexander.4579:

Fay.2357:

Lexander.4579:

Fay.2357:

Lexander.4579:

because mesmer has easy access to the most damaging conditions – torment and confusion

and after they apply 5 stacks of confusion and 7 stacks of torment while hiding in stealth or spamming blind preventing counter-attack they just spam their endless defensive cds while you take 1.5k damage per second

Sounds like somebody has no idea how to fight a condie mesmer, refuses to learn, and as a result ends up eating dirt every time he sees one.

Might I offer the advice of….l2p?

what a pathetic attempt of a personal attack, most definitely i dont lose to them

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

if salty mesmer mains cant accept they are unable to play the class without the unkillable chronobunker build they can always reroll to scrapper or rev

If salty thief mains can’t accept that they have no functional reason to ever lose to a mesmer unless they’re bad, they can always uninstall the game.

never said i lose to mesmers, my build excels in 1v1

Sure, whatever you say.

If you actually never lost to mesmers, you wouldn’t be here whining about them. Obviously there’s a little bit of defensive fabrication going on.

im here because im worried for the state of game’s health

Ah yes, I can clearly see that goal within the nonstop whining about a class that’s already garbage-tier in PvP. The raw altruism and caring that is being displayed just knocks me off my feet.

Lexander.4579:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Lexander.4579:

dont know i’d say mesmers need something done about their portals and the endless spam of defensive cds

Personally, I have to question why we even have thieves in this game.
Isn’t being killed by a class that has perma-stealth far too cheap? I mean, what is the counter?
Hope that you know the thief is close enough, and then play one of the classes that can actually reveal the thief?

We wouldn’t even need reveals if thief didn’t exist. It’s a half-baked counter to a class with no other counter.

See, I can be salty too.

stealth is a fine mechanic, just kittened 5-2 spamming d/p thieves make it look bad and give the bad reputation to the entire thief class

as opposed to mesmers where every single build is annoying and gives the class its bad reputation

Contrary to popular belief, Mesmer builds are only annoying to the people that aren’t good enough to beat them. Since Mesmer doesn’t have any strong builds right now, that allows us to draw certain conclusions, doesn’kitten

Lexander.4579:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Lexander.4579:

Fay.2357:

Lexander.4579:

Fay.2357:

Lexander.4579:

because mesmer has easy access to the most damaging conditions – torment and confusion

and after they apply 5 stacks of confusion and 7 stacks of torment while hiding in stealth or spamming blind preventing counter-attack they just spam their endless defensive cds while you take 1.5k damage per second

Sounds like somebody has no idea how to fight a condie mesmer, refuses to learn, and as a result ends up eating dirt every time he sees one.

Might I offer the advice of….l2p?

what a pathetic attempt of a personal attack, most definitely i dont lose to them

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

if salty mesmer mains cant accept they are unable to play the class without the unkillable chronobunker build they can always reroll to scrapper or rev

If salty thief mains can’t accept that they have no functional reason to ever lose to a mesmer unless they’re bad, they can always uninstall the game.

never said i lose to mesmers, my build excels in 1v1

Sure, whatever you say.

If you actually never lost to mesmers, you wouldn’t be here whining about them. Obviously there’s a little bit of defensive fabrication going on.

Lexander.4579:

dont know i’d say mesmers need something done about their portals and the endless spam of defensive cds

sigh

Who left the door open? A salty thief made it in again.

‘Will do small balance adjustments before the season starts.’

‘Fixes a bunch of tooltip and visual bugs.’

….k

Edit: I think the most comical thing about this is how all the naive people were like ‘oh, let’s speculate about the changes we might get on the 23rd to help balance Mesmer a bit’. Yeah, no. We’ll be getting changes at the end of the season, and they’ll be nerfs too.

Hehehehe.

Sorry.

Hehe.

Jourdelune.7456:

Fay.2357:

Honestly, I’d find a new game if I were you. Anet has literally come out and said that they don’t want bunkers in PvP. They’ve removed bunker amulets, nerfed bunker skills, and probably are going to do more to remove bunkers thoroughly in the future. If you only want to play bunkers, this is a pretty hostile game environment for you. Even if you do figure out an effective bunker, you can bet it’ll get nerfed as soon as Anet hears about it.

I don’t agree.

Anet need to remove BRUISERS (it’s what they did) that can sustain like BUNKER while doing enough DPS to kill people ine 1v1 in 30 seconds.

The balance bruisers, dps and bunkers/support is better now. I hate the quickness nerf for rez or stomp, but we still get rez and stomp options.

Actually, bunker’s with cleric are balanced. Bruisers bring nice sustain for their 1v1 and can kill something, while bunker rotate on teams fights to make the 3v3+ a breeze with heals/aoe cleanses/aoe boons/cc.

DPS roamers are better for season 2, since they transform all the bruisers OP amulet into balanced bruisers amulet. (except Mercenary, Carrion was enough)

Today, we will surely see something to help more bunkers to emerge from the different classes, not the other way around.

… so beware, when you see Dal on a team, be sure to communicate to your team that you need to split and not doing team fights.

Dal

Ok, a few things.

1. Bruisers can be balanced just fine. Take a look at LoL, they’ve balanced their bruisers. Anet just isn’t good enough to do that.
2. It doens’t matter whether or not you think bruisers should be removed instead of bunkers, since Anet has made a concerted effort of getting rid of the latter, not the former. They’ve removed every amulet with a major stat of toughness or vitality, not just the ones with minors of dps stats. That’s bunker removal, not bruiser.