Guild Wars 2

If they continue marching down the current road, then the game will pretty much be ruined come expansion time. And, they aren’t going to sell me an expansion based on more grindy grind on top of Ascended… so I’ll just enjoy it for however long it lasts, play some other games that catch my eye, and once I feel left behind then that’s that.

Rukia.4802:

Fortuna.7259:

Columba.9730:

Culling bugs can be best exploited by mesmers and thieves. that’s why they seem favored.

Mesmers and thieves are just plain better than engineers. Also, having played all 3, I found engineers to be boring. This seems to be a consensus.

And thieves aren’t?…. I’ve played every proff and thief is just bland as hell. We rarely swap for anything other than escaping or getting around, whatever your build is based around, it’s one weapon set. Meaning you are spamming 3, 5, and 1 on one weapon set 99% of the time. Wooo so fun. A pve rotation in WoW has 10x the variety than this, which is sad.

IMO ele’s are the most fun to play because they are very action oriented on D/D you are switching elements every second of every second using a ton of all your skills.

Thieves at least have the stealth mechanic going for them and the ability to kill a target fast. Engineers should have crazy gadgets or impressive machines or something but just… don’t.

Columba.9730:

Culling bugs can be best exploited by mesmers and thieves. that’s why they seem favored.

Mesmers and thieves are just plain better than engineers. Also, having played all 3, I found engineers to be boring. This seems to be a consensus.

plasmacutter.2709:

Except ArenaNet just jacked up the demand for ectos and t6 mats by 5000% while leaving the drop rates and diminishing returns in place.

Yup. Farmer farm ectos… not just gold. The reason ectos are so pricey is insane demands placed on needing ectos for Ascended with a supply tuned for making Exotics semi-precious. So yeah before you needed 50 now 1000? Besides which people really don’t need gold for much right now (tier 3 cultural and commander not being as popular as stuff you get with STACKS of ectos).

Ditton.3149:

and skills that do basically the same thing do? you push other buttons..great..so its not a skinner box..its a simon simulation lol…

I think GvG was GW1’s saving grace..we need more of things like that. GvG, let me own a city in the world, let me own something or take something that is significant. Thats horizontal progression..anything involving the character including new skills is still vertical progression, its just got its rails hidden a bit better.

I don’t understand your point. New skills that require some experience about how to use, counter, and put into builds has more to it than changing your sword +26 to a sword +32. I wasn’t even claiming it was enough… but the new line is that GW1 was “static”, and that is to justify higher numbers that do NOTHING to make anything fresh. That line is clearly flawed. Also I do not see controlling an entire town as “horizontal” since it is clearly beyond your previous scope of power. Such things are generally open to being contested and as such is “horizontal” only by the sense that it is ephemeral.

Ascended/Agony is bad form.

They could have used proper stat scaling for areas outside of FotM (hint Ascended = Exotic) to avoid a lot of problems. Too bad.

mantrunks.4810:

I agree with the GW1 Stagnant statement. After being in a top 20 guild for a couple of years, and running HoH every day became boring and the reason I quit. The next expansions released new worlds and skins, which were fun for a couple of hours, and then back to PVP most people went. Sure, new skills were released, but the number of useful skills were small and new strategies/builds were figured out a couple of weeks into each expansion.

This is really irrelevant. So running HOH every day against changing opposition in a changing metagame became stagnant? And I suppose grinding the same dungeon every day for some higher numbers on your gear will NOT become stagnant? Please. Higher numbers add nothing to the mix other than being a cattle prod to keep you moving.

EndlessDreamer.6780:

SHM.7628:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Tachenon.5270:

Flynch.6034:

The man spent 8 hours answering questions. I honestly don’t know what he could have said to appease you.

Well, he could have said “Everything we say is a lie.”

I imagine the reaction here would be something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuYbDP2kDfg

Actually, that’s probably pretty accurate…

I have perhaps grown cynical in my old age, but I tend to take anything and everything a game developer says (even the ones I like) with a cargo freighter (or two) of salt, so there’s not much he could have said beyond something like “Yeah, we intentionally mislead the horizontal GW1 type guys with our manifesto video and stuff so they’d buy the game, and now that we have their money we’re switching gears in an attempt to grab some quick cash from the folks out there who prefer the grindy vertical stuff and when that’s played out we’ll switch gears again and go for yet another crowd. Maybe even… your crowd! So stick around. Lots and lots of fun stuff yet to come!” that would have impressed me. Heck, if he’d said that I’d be tempted to spend moar $$$ on the game!

The only thing that stops me from laughing at this post is the realization people seriously expected malice where stupidity (even momentary stupidity) can explain it just as well. They had what they thought was a neat idea, developed it, and didn’t stop to think about the ramifications.

And it was after they proudly put it forth that it started to sink in . . . “oh no…”

Could they have known better? Probably, very much so. Unfortunately, this has happened, and it’s time to deal with it and move on. We can’t roll it back and pretend it never happened, we can’t not acknowledge it, because it did happen. And they made it clear they’re going forward with Ascended existing in the future, there’s not much changing that.

So it’s time to move on from it. Harsh, perhaps, but it’s okay if you want to leave over this. The game isn’t what you thought it would be, that’s fine. Go back to waiting for the one you want, just know this game is still here if you feel like coming back to kill time.

And you know what, if you are on my server or see me on an Overflow and don’t violently object to grouping up, I’ll happily go do some stuff with your group. All right? Fair enough?

Maybe it was stupidity on their part like you suggested. Perhaps it was just office politics. Like you said, its over. It’s time to either accept it or leave. However, Tachenon was right. Claiming that they didn’t stray from their manifesto and break their promises is another slap in the face. It happened. (a two year old could figure that out.)

No.

The strayed from YOUR interpretation of THEIR manifesto.

That is a big difference people don’t seem quite to be getting.

It wasn’t just his interpretation. It was the interpretation of many people. The evidence of that is on display here on the forums and by the questions asked in the AMA. What is worse, Anet was apparently aware of this (mis?)interpretation and let it propagate. Why else would they have anticipated a backlash?

Harbard.5738:

That said, I’m personally not convinced the game is going anywhere good. Not because i think they’re liars or the such. I’m just not sure they know what they’re doing. They are definitely not being that innovative about things, as they jump in the statflation road. It really bugs the crap out of me, because it make is it really impossible to have fun and gear up alts and have multiple sets for different builds.

This is a huge problem. My personal take is that they just showed that they don’t have a vision or a roadmap. It is like they just told everyone that marketing will make the design decisions from now on, according to what their analysis says will turn the best quarterly profit. This is like a political candidate with no agenda and no backbone taking the popular position of the hour. They may get a lot of votes, but sensible people know to keep away.

Mackdose.6504:

I never need to grind to have fun in GW2, Period.

Just because a grind exists, doesn’t mean you must do it to participate.

Read it again.

Stop being held hostage by other players mandates and previous MMO behaviour, stop blaming the game for not being able to get things thing you want, but not need, and stop saying that the game is doomed based on a miniscule stat increase.

It’s a game, so… of course nothing is required. You can tool around in Metrica Province forever. But the same can be said of all other MMO’s as well. I don’t need anything there either.

This argument is so lame because this is an MMO. When everyone else is off doing X and you are excluded because you haven’t done Y, then that is lame. When Y takes a really, really long time to do, then it just sucks.

plasmacutter.2709:

At this point I’m more concerned about how fractal levels punish people who cooperate and help others in lower levels with less reward.

It’s fragmenting the community.

A major impact of Ascended gear. Stuff like this is why you can’t just ignore that it is there… Other people will not ignore it, and then what are you left with? A game where a level 38 FotM won’t play with a level 34 FotM?

Galen Grey.4709:

Nope doesnt sound like a treadmill just like when we started the game saw 5 tiers of gear we didnt say ohh now I have common and will have to get fine quality which I will then have to replace with masterworks and then get rares on my way to exotic!

This is hilarious. You turned 80 and used lvl 80 COMMONS and then worked your way to FINE?

Galen Grey.4709:

What? if they had released all the set at once it would have been like adding 3 – 4 tiers? How did you come to that conclusion? A single tier is a whole armor set from start to finish that share the same stats how can it be like 3 – 4 tiers all at once? Seriously I’d take one hard look at how you’re perceiving this whole thing. Its a fact, not even debatable that what they did is release a single tier of armor.

You seem to have trouble with taking a simile too literally so I’ll just say this: In many games I could grind through 3-4 tiers with about the effort I expect it to will take to get full infused Ascended + max infusions.

Galen Grey.4709:

How is it critical? This weekend I did a little experiment I tried playing in the only place where ascended armor has any impact at all without any armor! so not 1 tier difference that ascended armor will provide but rather a whole 5 tier difference. Tried logging in early in the morning to get into small engagement as to not skew this as much as possible. Unfortunately people start playing quite early but I got a few small skirmishes. Ended up with 7 kills and just 2 deaths (weaning nothing no armor, no accessories) I also got 2 solo engagements in which when seeing me wearing no armor the opponents fled! I am not kidding! you’d expect that provided this believe that armor is everything I would have been a prime target yet not one but 2 players when coming one on one they just simply ran away! But dont take my word for it, try it yourself!

“Small skirmishes?” So you did 1k to someone and the people in front of you did 20k and you got the kill? Whipee. There are also level 20’s in WvW that are wearing fine and I’m sure you can beat them as a naked level 80. Try this… take a team of 5 naked against 5 people in exotic. If your side wins then you proved the other team didn’t have a heartbeat.

Galen Grey.4709:

Fortuna.7259:

Incorrect. Words from someone who hasn’t kept their word are just empty words. Only ACTION can defuse this issue.

Bet nothing can defuse this issue! thats the thing about witch hunts, getting the witch doesnt defuse the hysteria it just makes the witch hunters look for the next witch. People should never have taken this issue so far and set off this avalange. Instead of just telling arenanet they disagreed with what they did clearing waiting and seeing how they’d respond people went all out, that was wrong imho

What are you ranting about? Seriously.

We don’t need bots, but the T6/ecto drop rate is really too low for farming stacks of 250. Something needs to be adjusted because right now because the 250 requirement is just over-the-top.

RhysSebastian.7651:

This isn’t a sandbox MMO, where you can go outside and do wtf you want. Its a themepark game with a progression system. If you want sandbox play go play Eve online, tibia, or darkfall.

I do so enjoy people telling us what the game is and what it is about, even though the developers described something completely different. But really, silly us. We listened to Anet developers to find out what Guild Wars 2 was about, when we should have been listening to the WoW player base tell us what Guild Wars 2 was about.

Galen Grey.4709:

Fortuna.7259:

A treadmill just keeps you running. Can you craft yourself full Ascended yet so that you have nothing left to craft? No. Because you are meant to run rabbit, run!

come on this is really a weak argument. so if instead of releasing just a back and ring they released the whole set it wouldnt be a treadmill cause you can craft it all and be done. But because they’re releasing the set a few pieces at a time it magically becomes a treadmill because ohh you cant be done this month you can only finish the back and rings… there is still the reset of the set remaining! Also you conveniently didnt the answer the most crucial question why you personally want to have this Ascended gear? what is the reason you cant be happy with your existent exotic set?

It isn’t a weak argument. If you play now, you have to invest in a lot of gear (and possibly transmutation stones) that you are going to have to replace. So, you have to get gear now and get gear later. Sound like a treadmill? If they unlocked it all at once then it would be like another game releasing 3-4 “tiers” at once. But that doesn’t happen because it destroys the illusion of it not being an insane grind to the top. Even though “treadmill” might have to be replaced by “insanity” that wouldn’t somehow make it good.

As for ‘why I personally want ascended gear’ being the most “crucial question,” I can only laugh. Call me crazy, but the impact of Ascended gear on the game seems a whole lot more crucial. Besides which I don’t “want” Ascended gear. I’d quite enjoy it being deleted entirely.

Galen Grey.4709:

Fortuna.7259:

Will you listen to yourself? They said it is a one time thing but they reserved the right to do it again?

OK, I’ll just stop right there.

Yes its called honesty. Since no one has a crystal ball you dont know what you’ll plan to do in 2, 3 years down the line, you dont even know what your players will want then. All he can say is the current plans and what he said is current plans are not to introduce a new tier. Personally I am more inclined to believe him with such an answer then if he had said oh dont worry this is the last tier ever we promise. You know what? the first answer hurt him because some people took one look at it and said see he didnt say never so they obviously plan to do it again even though he said no such thing.

Honesty? Honesty tells you that this was done to please a certain population and that this will need to be done again – for the same reasons. Don’t even try to tell me what was done with this update was “honest.”

Galen Grey.4709:

If he had said never 1/2 this issue would be defused but would it be the absolute truth or just saying what we wanted to hear?

Incorrect. Words from someone who hasn’t kept their word are just empty words. Only ACTION can defuse this issue.

Snype Cyclos.7391:

I just want to remind you that you’re angry at a few lines of code.

That’s about the most silly reductionism I’ve encountered yet on this issue. No, people aren’t mad at lines of code.

Pretty much everyone in my guild with a level 80 character has a reasonably played alt. I myself have 4 alts and didn’t even recognize them as alts because I could achieve max builds with them all. Now, I will barely play them because I’m not going through all those difficulty levels of FotM with more than one character (if even with one character at all), and I can only gear one character (and that only if I don’t “waste” time with leveling and gearing alts).

So, no.

Cosian.1362:

As a leader of a largish guild, I am already seeing the drama associated with end level raiding. This person is at level 10 and doesn’t want to redo level 2 because they are on the treadmill …. blah blah blah. Joe is at level 8 and there are no level 8’s around so its grind a PUG time. Sally was out of town last week and is still looking to do level 1 …. she has pretty much given up on doing that with her group of friends and likely won’t even do it.

This. Fragmenting the player base is a major problem of vertical progression treadmills, and it was introduced in just a week without even needing gear at all! (Another major problem being effective killing of previous content, which also is occurring). I wonder what a rival Asuran MMO developer might say to this stunning development…

Enzomiles.6197:

Kida sounds like me. They shouldon’t have kittenADOODIE ascended gear!

LOL. Maybe that wasn’t on topic, but that made my day. And it does have some truth to it.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Fortuna.7259:

Will you listen to yourself? They said it is a one time thing but they reserved the right to do it again?

OK, I’ll just stop right there.

Yeah that was badly stated. What they said was “we don’t have plans to do this every 3 months” and everyone is assuming all sorts of implications into what he said or didn’t say.

- Just because he said 3 months, he must be looking to do it earlier/later. (Correct, he didn’t. But that just assumes he’s out to lie to you in the first place, so why assume he keeps his word at all?)

Well said. Why assume it at all? I don’t believe stuff that leads people to conclusions such as “it is a one time thing that they might do again.” That just demonstrates what doublespeak it really is. Hence my opinion that at best that whole thing says nothing at all.

StormGryffen.7638:

Columba.9730:

No, it will not end well. YOu cannot alienate your most loyal customers and keep operating. RUle #1 of any business.

I keep seeing language like this being thrown around. A lot. While this statement is on its surface true, how are you more representative of the loyal customer base than the folks still happily playing the game and who do not feel alienated? It would seem a contradiction, because those players are, after all, being some measure more “loyal,” if such a thing were to be measured, or at least it would seem so, right?

Not at all. Just because someone is still playing doesn’t mean they are loyal. They can just as easily be apathetic.

The loyal base being mentioned only had one MMO that served them. That made them very loyal. Guild Wars 2 could have a lot of flaws, and they would still happily stay for years, because it had what mattered to them. No longer. It takes a certain boneheaded move to turn that kind of loyalty against you, but it is possible.

Galen Grey.4709:

Fortuna.7259:

Those amulets and earrings you are talking about will have higher stats than anything you have now. You have to grind for them. Then maybe they will give you armor pieces to grind. Then some weapons… maybe a water breather? Grind grind grind to keep up with stat creep. That is a gear treadmill. It is rather amazing you don’t recognize that.

Respectfully you’re twisting things to suit your argument. Yes a new tier was introduced, ascended armor which is 10 % better then exotic armor. so far they introduced the back and the rings. They are missing Head, chest, shoulders, arms, legs, feet, earnings, amulet

You’re calling it a treadmill only because they’re introducing the rest of the set in stages rather then all at one time? why?

I’m not twisting anything. New gear coming off the developer’s presses forcing you to grind to keep up is a gear treadmill. Confuse the issue all you want about how you rank the gear, what you call the process, time intervals, percentage increase of stats, etc… that’s twisting the issue.

Galen Grey.4709:

To be a treadmill they have to keep releasing new tiers to grind making it essentially impossible to get to the end which is why its called a treadmill, adding a one time new tier is certainly a bad idea but doesnt make it a treadmill since once you craft it all you’re done there is nothing more to craft.

A treadmill just keeps you running. Can you craft yourself full Ascended yet so that you have nothing left to craft? No. Because you are meant to run rabbit, run!

Galen Grey.4709:

Do you seriously believe he said we dont intend to have a new tier every 3 months because they intend to create a new tier ever 4 months instead? he said every 3 months simply because they introduced ascended gear on the 3rd month! he simply meant this was a one time thing but reserved the right of doing it again in the future nothing else!

Will you listen to yourself? They said it is a one time thing but they reserved the right to do it again?

OK, I’ll just stop right there.

SneakyErvin.3056:

Honestly, I dont understand how people can compare 3 (yes 3) items to a geargrind such as WoWs or Rift or any other MMO.

I takes roughly 1-1½h per day to “grind” for it after you hit level 10. Once you have the 2 rings you like there is no more “grinding”. You can even save all the wrong stat rings for alts.

Uh-huh. Let’s see how long it takes to get 300 exotic-grade mats at 1 hour per day…

Rejam.3946:

And to say this increase is insignificant and no one can tell is just an insult to all the people who want vertical progression added. You are saying ANet is tricking them in to believing there is vertical progression just so they keep grinding away, all for no benefit.

This. There is no increase. That is why we must have it. o.O BTW Link you gear or be kicked.

munkiman.3068:

Fortuna.7259:

1) An Ascended weapon will have additional weapon damage, which all by itself will add more than 2% to damage even at a realistically expected increase… never mind the increase of a full set of berserker’s Ascended over Exotic. But, it will be some time before you can dress in all Exotic and “appreciate the math” of being pounded on by someone in all Ascended.

2) The percentage increase in other games doesn’t really matter. Mobs are scaled up to meet that percentage and in PVP gear differences are usually nerfed (because fighting someone that does 3 times your damage is dumb). So you might say that stat-wise you could suffer through Ascended level content in Exotic? Well, agony is there to prevent anything like that!

3) Only having 3 slots of Ascended items so far is a non-talking point. They are in the design, and they are coming to a grindy experience near you soon!

There is already a huge disparity in WvW, going toe to toe with an actual level 80 with full exotics stat’d will get you killed regardless how good a player you are at say actual level 50 or less, AKA why there is so much zerging.

Most of my guildies don’t have a single Ascended and have faced level 12 Agony, it’s certainly doable.

I enjoy the dungeon, as do many people, which is why there are rather large complaints about them pulling so many people there, i don’t consider content i enjoy doing, grindy.

Why are you telling me about dying at level 50 nonsense? You are implying an 100-hour grind to max level makes a 500+ hour grind for decent gear on top of it just fine? Level 80 and Exotics was about the limit most people would do for a WvW experience with another class (many I know didn’t even want to do that). Ascended gear is a bit insane even with just one class.

The T6 requirement is a travesty. Just think of the effect it has had on the “legendary wall”… it is now the “legendary super-fortress”…

Galen Grey.4709:

clydey.4963:

The fact that the ascended gear has any increase at all is the problem! So all those players who gathered exotics or spent money on the trade post get what now? A pat on the back and Anet pointing us to Fractal and saying “there’s the better gear, go get it”?

They could have easily added infusion onto the existing gear if they wanted “progression” in these dungeons alone, but by putting any increase in the gear they have already put in the fear that the gear treadmill is beginning.

What do you have that says this won’t happen again? Their word? Because it doesn’t seem like they need to keep it anymore, why stop now?

Maybe it won’t happen, maybe it will. The fact is they have gone against the very thing they said they didn’t want in their game and that trust is broken, gone, out the window, probably never getting it back.

You can spin it anyways you want, that it is a minicule change, that it doesn’t change anything, that it is the same game and you may be right. But they’ve still lied and gone back on their word and that’s all people need to decide not to support them anymore.

We don’t need you or Anet to prove that it’s not happening because it already is! You need to prove to us that it won’t happen again and trust me that’s a lot harder when we’ve already been lied to once!

lied how exactly? did they ever promise never to introduce any new tier gear after exotic? cause the only promise I know of is that content will not be gated by gear and no threadmill and while I dont like the increase in stats just like you it doesnt break any of those 2 promises!

Max stat gear does not require a grind. Hard to obtain gear differs only in appearance. That was the sales pitch.

Besides, we do have a treadmill, and agony is a gating mechanic.

Galen Grey.4709:

Fortuna.7259:

“Tier” of gear is irrelevant. Why are people so caught up in the semantics and labeling? Oh it’s not grind it’s “gear progression”… that makes it totally different!!

Fact is: There is new gear coming out in phases. This new gear has higher stats. You have to grind for this gear to keep up with the rate of its introduction.

How is this not a gear treadmill? Please.

BTW the “not every 3 months” post at best says nothing. Exact opposite? Too funny.

I am sorry but you’re the one who decided coming out in phases means new better stats, What I and many others understood by that was now we got rings and back items, next phase we might get amulates and earings. The phase after that Chest and legs etc..

I am sorry but I wasn’t the one who decided anything. Those amulets and earrings you are talking about will have higher stats than anything you have now. You have to grind for them. Then maybe they will give you armor pieces to grind. Then some weapons… maybe a water breather? Grind grind grind to keep up with stat creep. That is a gear treadmill. It is rather amazing you don’t recognize that.

Galen Grey.4709:

Of course it does! not every 3 months might not mean never but the next part you conviniently ommited especially: “that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.” certainly means they dont intend to create a threadmill. If its still unclear perhaps this might be a bit more to the point:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/linsey-murdock-unveils-new-high-end-ascended-gear/

They don’t expect us to chase a new tier every 3 months. Every 4 months is just fine. More gear every month is fine if it isn’t a new “tier.” Seriously, you are grasping at straws if you want to believe that piece is telling you there won’t be a treadmill. It is also irrelevant to the fact that we have a gear treadmill at this very moment. The possibility that they might eventually turn it off doesn’t change what they will be doing until then.

Galen Grey.4709:

“we can add personal progression without making the game feel like an endless treadmill of gear that is just out of your reach.”

If they do like you suggest and every phase they release new higher tier gear… Or well like you put it, same tier but higher stats, how would that not be an endless treadmill of gear thats always just out reach? I am still convinced the only progression they intend to do will be tied to infusions and thus only affect the dungeon and not the game at large!

Yeah. And they don’t make grindy games either. Infusions have stats. Wake up.

Galen Grey.4709:

Fortuna.7259:

Tosha Daydreamer.9251:

Slippery slope? Yes. Gear treadmill? Not yet.

So all these people who are making a Huge Drama out of this and even quitting or asking for refunds, are overreacting terribly imo.

It’s one thing to sound an alarm. It’s another thing to let what might come ruin the fun you’re having and acting like an angry mob with too many pitchforks.

Incorrect. The gear treadmill is already here. We have already been informed that Ascended gear and infusions will be rolled out pretty much as fast as we can reasonably be expected to grind them out. This is a gear treadmill.

As for “slippery slope” it doesn’t apply since we already fell down a cliff. What was done already was bad enough.

Can you please copy and link the exact place where they say they plan to add more TIERs of gear? cause the only thing close to that I know of is this:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside/first#post721451

“We will not be adding a new tier of gear every 3 months that we expect everyone to chase after and then get the next set and so on.” which says exactly the opposite! granted they didnt promise to never do it again which is to be expected no company will ever commit categorically to anything but it certainly doesnt mean they will do it either!

This was nothing more then to introduce a little progression on the side for people who want this and thats the FotM dungeon and the progression will not be in the form of new better gear but new and better level of infusions to counteract higher levels of agony !

This is not yet a threadmill. You dont even need exotic armor to play anything in this game much less ascended gear!

“Tier” of gear is irrelevant. Why are people so caught up in the semantics and labeling? Oh it’s not grind it’s “gear progression”… that makes it totally different!!

Fact is: There is new gear coming out in phases. This new gear has higher stats. You have to grind for this gear to keep up with the rate of its introduction.

How is this not a gear treadmill? Please.

BTW the “not every 3 months” post at best says nothing. Exact opposite? Too funny.

Tosha Daydreamer.9251:

Slippery slope? Yes. Gear treadmill? Not yet.

So all these people who are making a Huge Drama out of this and even quitting or asking for refunds, are overreacting terribly imo.

It’s one thing to sound an alarm. It’s another thing to let what might come ruin the fun you’re having and acting like an angry mob with too many pitchforks.

Incorrect. The gear treadmill is already here. We have already been informed that Ascended gear and infusions will be rolled out pretty much as fast as we can reasonably be expected to grind them out. This is a gear treadmill.

As for “slippery slope” it doesn’t apply since we already fell down a cliff. What was done already was bad enough.

phooka.4295:

Oh, you think that magazines are not voicing concern is an idicator for anything? Gaming magazines are dependent on publishers giving interviews and (more importantly) inviting them to beta test and pre-release demonstrations. They hardly ever voice criticism.

Not only that, gaming magazines depend on gaming advertisement to even survive. The rest of their meager income trickles in from a few fanboys that will rage if their favorite game is dissed. This makes them effectively 100% advertisement from cover to cover.

mulch.2586:

The stat cap vs stat progression broohaha is missing an important point.

It’s a point that’s missed because the game market comprises people who don’t appreciate math.

The gear steps in GW2 are not like gear steps in other games. It’s built into the formulas, these are small, incremental steps that decrease in significance the higher you go. (of course there’s the exception of infusions and the Agony mechanic, because that’s a brand new element).

We only have the rings and back, two small-stat components of the kit so far.

But imagine if Ascended main hand weapons come out and they have 50 more stat points. This is an extreme example, and you know if it came to play, people would be both screaming about how the game was ruined, and jumping at the bit to obtain these new weapons.

How much more damage will your character be able to do? For a typical power character, you’d get less than 2% increase in damage.

In contrast a single weapon upgrade in Rift would often get you 10 times that.

The formulae are in the wiki and other theorycraft posts. Figure it out.

This huge one-step increase to the stat-capped system is functional equivalent to still being stat-capped.

1) An Ascended weapon will have additional weapon damage, which all by itself will add more than 2% to damage even at a realistically expected increase… never mind the increase of a full set of berserker’s Ascended over Exotic. But, it will be some time before you can dress in all Exotic and “appreciate the math” of being pounded on by someone in all Ascended.

2) The percentage increase in other games doesn’t really matter. Mobs are scaled up to meet that percentage and in PVP gear differences are usually nerfed (because fighting someone that does 3 times your damage is dumb). So you might say that stat-wise you could suffer through Ascended level content in Exotic? Well, agony is there to prevent anything like that!

3) Only having 3 slots of Ascended items so far is a non-talking point. They are in the design, and they are coming to a grindy experience near you soon!

Levels wouldn’t be so bad if there weren’t so many of them that made so little difference and you could actually choose your level rather than having to grind through them. As it is, it is terrible.

Rejam.3946:

Astraea.6075:

Rejam.3946:

What about people who start after the roll out.
And I’m not sure arguing semantics about the speed of the treadmill really helps your argument.

And ArenaNet are going to be introducing other methods of acquiring this gear with future patches, so those who start later may in fact find it easier to obtain than it is now.

And why was Ascended added again? Wasn’t it to fill the gap between exotics and legendary’s? But they will make them easier to get later? Why would they do this exactly?

Actually, this is key to the perpetual gear treadmill. Only the existing top tier (or maybe few tiers) is really hard to grind for because otherwise new players would be turned away when they realize they are years behind the curve. So at the appropriate time, Ascended gear will become more readily available… in order to allow a near tier to arrive!

Syfin.6875:

Thank you for the great answers. I now understand. But now it makes me wonder. How would horizontal progression not become stale. It sounds like you arent working towards anything beneficial to your character… Does the game stay interesting. If so, how?

In actual horizontal progression, you develop new abilities that are fairly well balanced (or even additional characters). Anyone can develop a particular thing they want fairly quickly, but it takes time to develop everything. So, you are increasing your options and get to play with more actual content. In addition, as you choose to face additional harder challenges, it is actually harder because you haven’t acquired more powerful stuff to trivialize it, but your understanding and ability to utilize a greater breadth of the content might help you.

For vertical progression, you get more powerful. All this requires is you get a +20 sword to use instead of your +18. You do this so you can kill the +20 troll instead of the +18 troll. Yes, vertical progression doesn’t preclude actually introducing content. But it is the “go to” solution for lack of content, so that is where you are going to see it occur.

So, what actually gets stale faster? Gaining different abilities and taking on challenges that are actually progressively more difficult? Or getting higher numbers to fight higher numbers while essentially doing the same thing over and over? Hmm…

mrstealth.6701:

obstinate giraffe.9276:

Pfft, it’s not a grind at all, it has been like a week since fractals came out and I, a casual player, almost have the ascended quiver. (Legendaries take months for dedicated players, maybe?)

Quit complaining, it’s easy and if you have friends to play with it doesn’t feel like a grind at all.

It’s still a day short of a week, but since you’re close to having (by your own words) let’s say it takes you a week to get it. That’s a week, for one piece. Right know there are 3 pieces that you can replace with Ascended items. That’s 3 weeks. Anet has already stated their plans to implement full Ascended gear, which would be 13-14 (depending on 2H vs 1H weapons). That’s13-14 weeks if each part takes the same amount of time, and I assume some pieces (weapons, chest/leg armor) will take more to craft while others take less. I would consider 3 1/2 months to equip a character to be a huge grind. In the time it takes to get a single piece of this gear, you could have a couple sets of exotic. The value of the ecto alone could buy you at least one set.

This is also relying on RNG/luck to get one of the items. I may be recalling this incorrectly, but I do believe I saw at least one claim of someone reaching level 10 and only seeing a single mist essence drop amoung the entire group of 5. Going by Anet’s own estimates, that’s at least 8-10 hours of play, per player. So 40-50 man-hours produced only one of this item. This is the far end of the spectrum from some other players, but the fact still stands that RNG is random and it is possible to spend a year doing these daily and never see a drop.

And forget having more than one build or character. Just spam your same 1-5 weapon skills for thousands of hours. How engaging.

Mackdose.6504:

morrolan.9608:

Fractals is a minor issue to me, the major issue is deviating from the manifesto in terms of gear grind for max stats which will make a difference in other areas of the game like WvW. When there are infused ascended pieces for all wearable gear and the difference to stats will be more like +100, which is significant.

Right, but if the roll out is so long to the point where everyone realistically has a chance to acquire the gear, what’s the issue?

Don’t bring “gear grind for max stats” like it’s a mandatory requirement to participate, because it isn’t. Because of that fact, they haven’t deviated from the manifesto.

They didn’t say: Max stat gear will be grindy as hell to get, but you don’t have to get it if you can tolerate being sub-par.

Because the target audience would have avoided the game like the plague.

They said: Max stat gear. No grind. Hard to obtain gear just looks different.

Nothing in the game is mandatory. I mean, they could make the quest to get out of the tutorial zone take 1000 hours of killing level 1 mobs, and I can defend that by telling you that you don’t have to do it. The truth is, your game experience is impacted if you refuse to participate.

If you aren’t in Flavor of the Month right now, then you are falling behind and will get to play alone. Get back to work!

If it is true that content is developed independently and not properly reviewed for consistency to core elements of the game, then… well have fun in the future!

Personally, I think this theory has been demonstrated incorrect by recent events.

Even the developers are telling us that Ascended gear bridges the effort gap between Exotic and Legendary. But the OP will try to have us believe anything.

So if I spent the event time farming four rares, threw them in the mystic forge, and out popped a precursor then that was horribly unfair to you as well? What were the actual odds of a precursor from the event?

Rpgtabbycat.5869:

The problem with easily obtained max stat gear is that once people obtain it shortly after hitting level 80 they complain that there is no endgame content and nothing to do. Then they leave.

The problem with fantasy games is that when people log in to them, they say “I hate fantasy games.” Then they leave. The obvious solution is to make GW2 resemble a modern-day FPS shooter.

xiv.7136:

Chlorure.9763:

Yes it should. People are now getting turned down from group for not having full exotic gear.

No they are not.

Stop making stuff up.

No one can even see your gear, there is no inspect method.

And on top of that, exotics are ridiculously easy to get.

In a dungeon however, no one will notice you’re wearing a bunch of 5 silver level 80 Rares.

5 silver level 80 rares? Proof positive we aren’t playing the same game. Or, as you say, stop making stuff up.

People can look for common level 80 exotic weapon and armor skins. They can ask you to link your gear. Yeah, you can fake that. But most people wouldn’t know how and in any case that requires some preparation. And beyond that, it actually requires lying which some people in this world are still hesitant to do.

So how again are you sure people without exotics are not turned down?

Kaine.3421:

Karizee Is right, actually last night i did Fractals level 2 with a lvl 60 in the party and we had no issues at all. I think people that are saying its gated havent actually done any of it.

Or… they understand that people will be doing Fractals lvl 100 that will instantly kill you without gear.

Taking off your gear for anything other than an instant-death trap sequence is certainly worthy of a kick. There is over-the-top elitism, and stuff like this is used to justify it.

There are 7 pieces of armor. If you have them fully repaired, you won’t need to repair any until your 8th death because nothing actually breaks until then. If you need to worry about repairing armor frequently, you need to really examine what you are doing wrong.

Ryuujin.8236:

Can someone just clarify this for me: What changed?

People are saying the game is no longer fun, but the game that existed before the patch is still here. They simply added new content.

If the old content was fun, why are you trying to do things that are un-fun? Why not stick to the stuff you find to be fun? (I personally hate sPvP so I don’t sPvP. Problem solved, if you don’t like fractals or the karka, don’t do them)

The focal point of the community and the future of the game has changed. This game is a Massive Multiplayer game. So the experience is dictated to a large degree by what the community is doing.

If you don’t understand this, then imagine: Starting tomorrow, nobody else ever logs in to the game. The GAME is still the same. Why wouldn’t you continue to play for much longer?

El Hefe.2814:

Fozzik.1742:

Please find me the person who thinks it is fun to be ineffective in groups, to be useless in dungeons, and to get stomped repeatedly in WvW? Find me the person who enjoys sitting for hours trying to find a group? In what way is it fun to get left out of new content or the best rewards?

Part of having fun in a game is being effective and useful and sometimes successful. You can’t do any of those things if you are left far behind by the stat treadmill. You won’t get groups and you will be largely ineffective in PvE content. You won’t be useful and will constantly get defeated in WvW. This game requires gear and stats in order to be effective and successful…and ArenaNet just added a huge grind to that requirement with their new tiers of gear and infusions.

I’m sorry you don’t understand what’s happening, how the game works, or what other people are saying, and that it causes you to be annoyed.

We’re TRYING to play the game for fun. ArenaNet is requiring a stat grind of ever-growing proportions in order to reach that fun.

you call it grind because you don’t find it fun. some people do. some people are really really dedicated and like to do challenging content. that’s what the fotm dungeon offers. it also lets people jump in and try it and an easier, less dedicated level. in other games Raiding is the endgame. Guild Wars 2 offers other things for ‘end-game’ content. They also now offer more challenging content that those who are dedicated can sink their teeth into.

Nobody is complaining about challenging content. Getting +300 stats to beat the +300 stat mobs is not challenging. That’s a delusion.

Fozzik.1742:

Please find me the person who thinks it is fun to be ineffective in groups, to be useless in dungeons, and to get stomped repeatedly in WvW? Find me the person who enjoys sitting for hours trying to find a group? In what way is it fun to get left out of new content or the best rewards?

Part of having fun in a game is being effective and useful and sometimes successful. You can’t do any of those things if you are left far behind by the stat treadmill. You won’t get groups and you will be largely ineffective in PvE content. You won’t be useful and will constantly get defeated in WvW. This game requires gear and stats in order to be effective and successful…and ArenaNet just added a huge grind to that requirement with their new tiers of gear and infusions.

I’m sorry you don’t understand what’s happening, how the game works, or what other people are saying, and that it causes you to be annoyed.

We’re TRYING to play the game for fun. ArenaNet is requiring a stat grind of ever-growing proportions in order to reach that fun.

This. Guild Wars 2 is an MMO. What this means is that the quality of the experience directly comes from your ability to interact and play with others. Your ability to interact and play with others is considerably hampered when 90% are locked into endlessly repeating a dungeon that you are unable to access.

This isn’t a solo RPG that is designed to entertain without the presence of other people. It isn’t a network game where I need to organize a time to get together with friends so that we can play “our way.” And it most certainly is not a game designed to engage you as you tool around on yet another player vacated map.

I find it interesting that the some of the people that complain about a game “dying” as soon as there is a downturn in population are so quick to tell others to go play by themselves. You would think that they would have some insight as to what that is like.

ckeeton.4907:

Yeah it’s odd that one tier of gear all of a sudden makes this a wow clone. Uh ok? Lol wow people cry that easily ?

How about this thought experiment: Remove all gear (and the ability/need to acquire it) from WoW permanently. What happens? Man, that’s just so “odd”…