Guild Wars 2

Sir Kaboomski.1508:

Obviously stealth is somewhat of an advantage (depending on the opponent you’re up against) and that’s just common sense. It was designed that way which is why thieves have limited survivability in that thieves have no utility access to stability/aegis/blocks/invulnerability.

Stealth is not God mode. I play a thief main and I have about 1,900 deaths, probably about at least 1,500 are on my thief in WvW.

true, it might not be god mode, obut out of invuln/aegis/stability/blocks, it is common sense also to know that steakth has the highest survival rate among all those, and if you died 1500 on your thief then those deaths most likely when you were out of stealth attacking someone or when confronted by a zerg. And we all also know that perhaps the best tool to survive a zerg is probably stealth, which you can literally walk past them and they would never know.

Truth of thr matter is; stealth is the single strongest mechanic in the game, even more than invulnerability because:

1) it has more uptime and less CD than any invulnerability in the game (even the highest lasting invulnerability has 50 secs CD and thats focus 5 on earth for ele)

2) You can still cast abilities (most invulnerabilities lock you in action or doesnt last long enough to do anything meaniful, im looking at the nerfed mist form which you could cast heal before, but now no more, or guardian’s elite, etc etc)

3) Best defense is the one where you dont get hit, and where you cant be tracked down. (go up to a zerg, cast stability/aegis/invulnerability, then try disappearing…. you cant, as soon as it all runs out you are dead. Do the same with a thief and change direction, use a shortbow teleport and you are gone, and watch them wave their sword around like idjots or waste long CD AoE)

Im sorry but you simply cant deny that stealth is THE strongest survival tool out there, it is, as you said; common sense. Sure it doesnt make you “god” but it sure is the closest you can get to it in this game.

the whole point of stealth is that played decently, the thief will ALWAYS have the first strike.

“But if you have awareness it shouldnt happen!” Well, guess what, if the thief also have awareness, at least as much as you think is necessary to get the first jump on a thief, then he will stealth before he gets easily spotted and shutdown.

Stealth IS the first strike, that already sets thing on their favor. I seriously dont understand from where is this all 50/50 nonsense coming from, perhaps playing agaisnt thieves that have no awareness or just created that class?

Cogbyrn.7283:

Oh look, more stealth proponent arguments that seem to focus more on aggressively detouring the conversation than really cracking stealth open and examining why people feel the way they do, what about those feels is L2P vs. bad design, and steps that could be taken to remedy those feelings while accommodating the Thief class in other places to insure they don’t become “free kills”.

Remember Bull’s Charge + Frenzy + 100B with the original Quickness? It almost doesn’t get more “L2P” than countering that combo, but there was outrage. Why? Because it was wildly unforgiving. Even though it relied on 2 utility slots and 45 or so seconds between attempts, not having a cooldown up or mistiming your dodge slightly meant you were basically dead. That isn’t really fun, and even though dodging Bull’s Charge meant you were suddenly at an insane advantage, it still smacked of bad design.

I specifically remember a video being released that demonstrated what to look for to dodge the combo and when to time it in an attempt to educate players. Is one of those videos to counter Stealth circulating, and I’ve just missed it? If so, I’d like to see it, just to see what it’s like. If not, I bet I can explain why.

Try imagining a scenario where you’re explaining how to counter something with only words and gestures. You can sort of demonstrate what Bull’s Charge looks like. You can mimic Dark Pact’s animation. You can explain how to quickly identify a heal being cast. The list goes on with regard to teaching through word and gesture that will be recognizeable in-game.

Now try to tell me what you’d do to explain to someone how to counter stealth. Odds are you’d want to say “Just play as one” or “Train against one focusing on their movements”. You can gesture CnD by bringing your left arm across your body, but that’s kind of it. What else do you say? “If they are this far away, just dodge, because they’re probably going to Steal”. “If they are gone and 2-3 seconds have passed, just dodge, because they’re probably about to Backstab”. “If they disappeared, drop AoEs at your feet and stand in it, but still try to unpredictably turn a bit in case they just run in for the Backstab anyway”. “If you think a Thief is going to stealth, you can start a channeled ability and it will continue to damage them, so long as they don’t break the abilities required FoV”.

At the end of the day, it seems to me that it just turns into statements that involve some form of guessing what they’re doing to do. The game isn’t even really designed to give you feedback, you have to extrapolate based on other mechanics. It doesn’t show you damage, but if you use an ability that chains and it starts chaining, odds are you’re hitting them (sometimes I’ve seen auto-chain go for a while but nothing ever shows up). If you use a projectile that doesn’t pierce and it stops mid-air, odds are you hit them (if you can tell that it didn’t go max range). If you dropped a Mark and it triggers, they’re in the area, but you might not have hit them. If you use Earthshaker and your adrenaline drops to 0 even though you don’t see damage numbers, then you hit them.

Is it any wonder there’s an almost constant outcry of people not enjoying fighting against the mechanic? It’s just as easy to say that “the majority of people don’t like fighting against stealth” as it is to say “for every person who doesn’t like fighting against stealth, another person does”. The truth is, there isn’t a survey of opinions regarding stealth in PvP, so saying either is silly. Given the number of threads that keep popping up, though, it seems to be a pretty popular cause for frustration.

God stop it with your beautiful logic, it is too good to read and that could prove troublesome for some. Anyways, once again you are on point, well worded and indeed a lot guesswork, something that neither promoted skillful plays or produce any fun on either side of the match.

Just for other people that missed the screenshot due to several threads being merged;

(credit goes to nickcosta.8256)

Frye.4608:

Actually i was referring to bow

Yes my reply was for him too dont worry, but might as well extend it to the other participants in this thread. I tend to get really hot in this topic, and my points tend to get derailed and even exaggerative. But my point stil stands firm; stealth/backstab needs some some solution.

And for that allow me to deeply apologize, I tend to get hot with this and after cooling down a bit I realize the flaw in my statements. In my defense however, the first and second werent meant at you, although they are reproachable indeed, there is certain truth behind it. The third one wasnt in any sense of the word an offense and I still stand firm on it. Thieves are too self absorved. Perhaps Im too, like anyone with a strong case argument, but I cant help but feel this way when all I get back is; l2p, trait all your traits and utilites accordingly to thieves and thieves only.

Cogbyrn.7283:

snip

Im starting to like this guy’s way of exposing things. Unlike me that I tend to get hot and fast after a couple of offenses thrown my way and a good point tend to go out as a rant rather than a well exposed point that would otherwise reach other people. Perhaps I should hire him to proof read my stuff and come with this posts, by far something worth discussing. But enough with compliments.

Perception is indeed in important part of balance and somethign taht should be taken into account. I believe that the inherent flaw of Stealth is the lack of choices you have on the receiving end.

For example, playing vs a mesmer has its own fun trying to figure out the real one among the clones, while the mesmer gets some pleasure trying to confuse you. A warrior is a wrecking machine that brings pain, but nothing is sweeter than watching a warrior stay midair with a hammer F1 just to see it be blocked/blinded/rooted/knowcked. It just bring so much pleasure, the warrior will do it again in 7 seconds but your pleasure of stopping it is still going strong.

With stealth, even if you connect lucky hit you still feel you accomplished nothing. You might not receive much or any feedback, you might not even hit him. Slippery, dangerous, you cant ignore, you cant attack at will. It feel very one sided, even if you win, the win doesnt feel like beating the player or the class, but rather having revenge on someone who just killed your puppy; sure you killed him but it isnt bringing your puppy back and that makes you not happy.

The stealth/backstab issue is real. help me work out a solution instead of trying to justify it. Virtually no one but a very small and select group of thieves in this thread oppose it…

Bowflex.4502:

Why do you keep mentioning sword when this thread and your complaint is about backstab?

And you are aware that pistol 3 isn’t a teleport, unless you have a dagger in your main hand right? If you are main handing a sword it’s pistol whip.

And for the 4th time. If you drop an aoe at your feet, no thief in their right mind will stick to you because the damage they take is too great. If your running froma theif you’re doing it wrong,

Because there is absolutely nothing stopping the thief to equip dagger/pistol with sword/dagger on another, hence why I mentioned pistol #3, because we are talking about backstab. After sword #2 they can switch weapon, if they use dagger/pistol + short bow they still gap closers and backstab. They are not mutually exclusive.

Builds which use of this? D/D, S/D + D/X, D/X + shortbow. Also, you “convinietly” left out shadowstep signet and steal and the sort.

Im sorry, but if you drop an AoE on your feet, lets say fire staf #2 (one of their hardest hitting that continually tick, as opposed to their 2+ secs windup spells which a thief can time) then at most it will hit them for 4k for one tick, which is all they need for f1>backstab to take 3.5k + 9k backstab (basically most if not all health of the ele). “oh but dodge” nope, dodging doesnt stop backstab and definitely doesnt help to get out of the AoE as you proposed, “oh but use a shield” still doesnt stop backstab, “blind” still doesnt stop backstab.

Wow, that, was beautiful. Another appraisal worthy post. Thank you good sir for bringing some logic and understanding among all these purposely (or not) derailing replies.

Smekla.8923:

Oh and one last thing – why are you so squishy as a guard ? .

huh? The screenshot was taken from a mesmer point of view, besides, i have minimal problems with thieves on my guard, even GC guard. The problem arises with other squishies such as mesmer, ele, ranger, etc.

Dont want to generalize, but your posts sound like another thief apologetic. I seriously wonder how come thieves keep walking in straight lines after going into stealth, or walking around their target while their skills are on CD instead of approaching when they are ready, letting themselves be hit by autoattacks.

Your scenarios include a lot of guessing, and guessing is not skills. If it was about guessing I would’ve now won the lotto, but instead Im as poor as ever. Look, I dont mind actual counterplay, but excuses are not accepted here.

Examples of counterplay :

-Revealing stealth on certain damage threshold
-Hard CC revealing thief
-Missing an attack on stealth reveals/or wont let you use anything but autoattack and remain stealth
-At certain range you become misty visible (like stealth for allies)

Examples of NOT counterplay;

-Swing your sword like an idjot
-Use your 40+ CD AoE on a 4 seconds CD stealth
-Hope they dont have steal, a bow, a teleport signet, a sword #2, a pistol #3
-Bend over and accept the face that berserker-other-classes are no-no apparently.

^ As Kyon said.

On a side note, Solecito, you can argue all you want that I “hate” thieves (which I dont,I just hate their toxic mechanics, the class itself is ok once they get rid of those bad parts) but truth of the matter is; it is for a reason. i have noticed a trend that it is mostly the same 4-5 thief players that will call out my name and defend thieves to the bitter end even when they know we are right. If you dont believe me check how many people actually support backstab/stealth/teleport spamming and how many of them dont (hint hint, look at the upvotes in this and all my supposedly “hateful” threads towards the class).

You cant smply deny something just because there is one active member calling it out whenever people forget about it. Just like most players in the game, I just want to see the game flourish and have as least grieving mechanics.

Lastly, dont you ever, ever compare an ele or warrior burst to a thief one. One has access to a mechanic that lets them cast the entire thing without any chance to retaliate or see, the other often involves several skills in quick succession, with setups, without stealth and with blockable/dodgeable/blindeable parts, with CD on the maginute of 40+ and no way to scape once it fails. Thieves dont suffer any of this, and we both know it too well. Stealth is single handily the strongest and most uncounterable (by a large margin) mechanic in the game, allows for the highest survival rate of any boon or condition, versatility of any boon or skill (yes, even better than invulnerability that can be stopped by some skills, is shorter, on higher CD, people can set up skills because they can see you and wont let you cast any skill). To deny any of this is a blatant lie, and very few classes have access to it, and none other than thieves can utilize it the best. Give them no CD, near infinite teleports and blinds, insane burst and disengage and you have a class that played well will always have the upper hand in any scenario (and please dont bring a 1v60 one, because no other class can go around them but thieves and some mesmers if lucky)

I mean this not in a any rude way, but I advice you to play GC that arent thieves for a while, such as ele or mesmers, not a game or two, but on the magnitude of hundreds and come to us and tell us again that thieves are fair.

Oakwind.6187:

I wish this discussion were a bit more civil, but they all do have a point. Here’s a question: Why do they offer Berserker – or indeed collectively “glass” – amulets to everyone if it’s so written in stone that Thieves “deserve” to roll face over other glass players?

A lot of Thief proponents seem to conveniently forget that it’s a player on the other end too. With the merits presented in these kinds of threads in defense of mechanics like these is that Rock-Paper-Scissors is totally okay balance. I don’t think anybody has a problem with Thieves being bursty, if there was some kind of indicator that they have set up and can deal a sizable amount of damage now. Certain other game does this by combo points and another by placing a debuff on you. More specifically, there is often zero warning that you get jumped by a thief, especially if you’re already engaged in a fight. This is the problem that people have. It is really bad design, because it is easy to do and requires quite a bit of skill from the person in the receiving end. Oh, you have a latency spike when you get attacked, or your game stutters when you about face? Tough luck, you just lost because fighting a Thief is an arbitrary reaction check. My point is that a Berserker Thief deals too much damage in general over a short period of time, and any latency or frame lag issues exacerbate the problem. This can happen at any time depending on overall system load, or if there happens to be congestion in the data center.

Skilled players can do much, but not everybody who wants to PvP has the twitch reflexes or sub 100 ms connection to enjoy it. The burst happens too fast and despite some people seeing Thieves just filling their niche, it certainly drives away people from PvP. I don’t personally have a lot of sympathy for them. It’s a hated playstyle and appeals to certain type of player. I do hope more discussion took place and that A.net would ultimately level the playing field, especially when the game engine and the networking cannot offer the kind of framework needed to have a consistent experience. Until that happens, I don’t think “L2P” is very valid nor reasonable. I don’t play Engineer for similar reasons anymore. I used to, and it has flown under the radar for way too long. Certain mechanics leave little room for opponent to make a mistake, and it feels exactly like fighting a Thief; frustrating and insurmountable to someone not having spent hundreds of hours in practising just against that. Some people just want to play for fun. If that cannot be a part of the design considerations in PvP, then maybe, just maybe contemplating the possible meanings of “It’s windy at the top” is in order.

EDIT: I don’t think tweaking Backstab or Stealth fixes anything. This is something that has been done against the manifesto. Furthermore they should have understood the limitations of their engine by now. Imitating features from MOBAs without understanding the importance of steady graphical and network performance at all costs inevitably takes a toll on the gameplay. As a result, we get these threads that mean well derailed on a daily basis by crowds who all ultimately want the same thing: A consistent and competitive playing field. Oh, and nobody wants to give up their advantages either.

That was a beautiful post. Thank you for the organized flow of ideas, civilized tone and great exposition of some of the issues.

Indeed disregarding any threads regardless of content and condescendingly say “l2p” isnt going to fix this any time soon. Thief are certainly a class that have many inherent issues. All i see however, is a very small vocal crew that will go to any extend in order to sabotage any thread pointing out their imbalance and toxicness.

i really hope this thread can continue in this tone, your post has given me hope and is good to see people are starting recognize the problem.

Sandpit.3467:

Good post (OP).

Sadly, yes, this is all about the toxicity of thieves. Probably the No. 1 reason why most players won’t go near PvP/WvW (Warrior OP being the second). And every thief in the game knows it and will post on forums like crazy to keep their toxicity fix. Just look how they reacted in GW1 forums when anyone dared suggest that perma was OP.

Not to worry though, ANet has it’s favored classes (and unfavored) and that isn’t going to change, ever.

It isnt the first time that people quit. I have had lots of real life friends and guildies leave PvP altogether msotly because thieves and warriors. Regardless of their skill level (which they werent bad, they werent even losing most of the time, they were ust tired of the same old song and having to fight uphill battles where they actually were facing inherently stronger classes) I can vouch to this.

That aside, that is not the point of this thread, as some people are trying to imply. This thread is about what toxic and OP mean and their differences, since people cant definitely tell them apart. I used examples that most people could relate, such as warriors and thieves.

To assume this thread is about them is a mistake, this apply to all classes and builds, it is more of a PSA than anything.

Anyways, I hope we can analize things like grow ups here instead of having the same old 4 forum-thief come bash everyone.

Good afternoon forums,

After much debate, I have come to the realization that there tends to be a total misuse and complete interchange between these two very different concepts, so I would like to clear things up. First let me clear another thing;

Mechanics: How something works, it is an unique thing that has its own inner working. Not limited to a class mechanic, but rather an abstract concept. Examples: weapon switching, stealth, clones, cooldowns, initiative, tethers vs skill shots, how an specific skill might work, etc.

Numbers: The scaling and base damage of skills or traits.

Now, to the main thing:

OP : Short for Overpowered. This term in MMOs is usually refereed to a certain class who posses a certain skill or collection of skills/trait that make a very strong and unfair combination. It involves both mechanics and numbers, although not necessary have to be mechanics, usually it involves only numbers Those that have number issues are easy to fix by twinkling the numbers. Those that involve the mechanics are a little harder.

Toxic : Skills that involve around a one-sided mechanic that can be frustrating to both the attacker and the defender. Not necessarily have to be OP, in fact, most of them arent. They create great amount of grieving and usually the only one that gains any joy out of it is the user

Now lets put that into other words.

Lets put an example of OP (and I will exaggerate all points to make the point clear)

> Imagine a hammer warrior came at you and hit you with his entire combo and you died in second skill due to the damage. Second round you somehow managed to dodge part of it and lived, retaliated but HS heals him 3000 per second, so anything you do to him goes away, 3 seconds later he repeats the combo and you died.

In this case we have a number OP problem. By reducing the amount of damage of the hammer, the healing done by the HS and increasing CD on the skill you achieve balance.

Now a Toxic example:

> A skill that allows you to take a persons health from 100% to 50% (7/10 times) and 100%-0% (3/10 times) without any hopes of blocking it, or even seeing it, but in exchange you die a second later to the team. This is an example of toxic. You see, most often than not the person will live, but those that dont live 30% of the time will have a very frustrating time, while 30% of the time the enemy will get an incredible pleasure that only he can enjoy. Because of this he is losing the game, but because the toxic behavior’s rewards are greater than anything else, he will continue to do this, even if it isnt OP.

As you can see, this is toxic, perhaps inst winning games, heck, it might even be losing the games, but it creates great amount of frustration and can be purposely used to grief. A good example is grabbing a fishing rod and a fear cone in crab toss and just perma spamming it on someone. You wont win but you will get great pleasure of making someone’s life unbearable.

So next time you see someone complaining about some skill/class/trait ask your self this: Is this skill Op or toxic? Can we fix it with numbers or is it a mechanical problem Whats the fun vs frustration ratio here? Whats the disparity between givers and receivers’ enjoyment? Is this OP and toxic, or just Op, or just toxic?

tl;dr Sorry for the long read, I guarantee you it will be worth it

Right now in terms of viability:

thieves have the highest chance to unload the entire damage and come alive, jut to repeat it a few seconds later.

eles if you dont mind dying a second later or having the entire burst negate by a single dodge, one single dodge (not to mention 40+ CD on all skills)

Warriors with a ready eviserate will make your day sour if they pack a shield too. No so much of a burst but they have a lot of sustained damage, and if the get their combo at the beginning quickly, then it is the same as burster, only with 7 seconds CD on it.

Razor.6392:

Looks like a l2p issue to me.

I run glassy on spvp and I’ve never been hit that hard. If a 1 trick pony downs you like that it’s okay, the next time you will look out for him and deny his only fighting strategy, and then win.

even if I dont get hit this hard (which for the most part is the case, I only get hit with 8-10k most of the time, the 11-13k happens 1 out of 5 games) it is stil ltoo much.

8k out of 12k base is 66% of my health, upfront, without anyway to stop it, with a 4 seconds CD, not counting the stuff that come after it such as blinds/HS or the such, or dodges to wait for the second unavoidable backstab.

Im sorry but they have too much of an edge, this is too punishing, no unavoidable and unseen skill should have such upfronted damage, none!

I see that you people has managed to turn a great thread about a change into a hateful string of comments towards me.

godz raiden.2631:

Even the best players in this game have more to learn to continue playing well. L2P is a valid argument, especially against people like you who admit you are at best an average player.

Want to know whats the difference? That I admit that Im not a pro player, while all of you who proudly wear the “thief” signatures who can only effectively play thieves elude themselves into believing they know it all and they are impermeable to any imbalance.

I think both side can agree to disagree in this aspect. We see each other as stubborn and unwilling to change, as unskilled and ignorant.

Since this is the case I will now leave this thread, but before that I will share a final thought; I know why Anet will never fix the thief issue:

There are all kind of people out there. People that like to share and help others, they tend to lean towards supports, healers. There are people who like to take things into their own hands, these people tend to play high damage dealers, aggressive playstyle involving lots of buttons for maximal results. Then there is the kind of player who is lazy and likes to do underhanded stuff, who will backstab anyone for their own benefice. Not always have to be this bad (specially the lazy part) but this kind of people tend to lean towards one-sided classes where they have most if not all the control,(instagibs, faceplant condibunkers, etc) where they know they have an unfair edge over others, even if this means losing their team’s game or abandoning their allies.
Unfortunately this kind of people exist, and like any good company trying to make money, they will create something that caters to it. The thing keeping it in check? Although it is a toxic behaviors, in the grand scheme of things they are nothing, since people who arent capping points or towers arent winning the game for their team.

@Op, great suggestion, a shame it will be lost in the sea of founded complains and biased counterarguments, on top of this giant placebo we call “forums”.

Zero Day.2594:

snip

Im glad that for once we seem to be speaking in good terms without having to offend each other.

I would more than gladly show more examples of how biased I see the views of thief players are, however I will use a very abstract metric; upvotes. I know I know, they are not a good way way of measuring things but I do want to note that most “anti-thief threads” or “QQ threads” (as some people refer to) tend to be very highly upvoted but most of the replies come from thief players themselves, which in turn receive little to no upvotes. Except for the occasional vocal and passionate people (such as myself) which cant stand them anymore of course. My view about is that it goes without saying that people recognize there is a problem with stealth and thief mechanics.

In reference to your post, unfortunately as you can tell, Im no thief player, however, I rolled a thief a long time ago which I give a couple of games every so often, to learn the class mechanics, to learn how to counter it and get a feeling of how a thief would behave. I can tell you this, the class is binary and both broken OP and broken UP.

What do I mean by this? First you and the guy above you mentioned about teleports and how could be used defensively. I will tell you this; sword #2 is probably the single most amazing teleport scape in the game, hands down. You can cast it behind a wall and it will still hit the person since it doesnt need LoS. You can cast it in place you can use to escape and voila. It has virtually no CD. No, initiative regenerates too quickly o count as CD, sorry. Specially with the 33% buff to it, which is humongous, and please dontsay otherwise because that would be a lie and we both know it. You gain initiative even with signets. Yes, the so-called ‘one-trick’ pony signet build has shortbow to get out things after the steal backstab combo, and even if that didnt work, you can use basilisk right after the backstab to stun the opponent who is in no shape to do much about it because he probably is at 20% or dead.

As you can see, the defense comes from actively trying, and well done can be devastating. Lets say that said thief has D/D with signet build, CnD can be used for quick stealth right after the basilisk wears off. There is very, too small window to retaliate in between basilisk wearing off and revealed, not to mention you still have full initiative from the stealth-backstab combo, and if that wasnt enough 2 dodges can fill the hole too, which can be used to evade until you can use to get out with short bow (full intitiative remeber) or switch to the off weapon (lets say dagger pistol) to chain another backstab with #5 and #2.

Please tell me how defenseless you really think you are vs a person you took more than 50% of his health.

On the other side I do understand how thieves tend to lose vs condi bunkers such as perma fear necor and condi engi, but you arent doing any better than an ele or mesmer who is as squishy and wearing beserker. Eles in berserker have as much health, no condi removal on regen, only ether renewal which makes the ele a sitting duck for 4 seconds where he can only run around, can be interrupted or killed, something eles cant afford without stealth.

As for the personal agenda, please stop it. I understand that you and some other people are developing a hatred towards me, still, it isnt an better than mine for thieves. Im trying to get rid of things that cause frustration, and notice that all my threads about those topics tend to get highly upvoted, because, once agian, a LOT of people have issues with it that goes beyond “l2p” issues that some people tend to deject so condescendingly. I have no personal agenda here, Im very straight forward about it and I would prefer if people stopped those hateful comment. I understand they wont stop and in fact will increase because of this, however I would like to think of myself of a civilized person.

Yes, Im not a top player, Im perhaps your average player, or worse, who knows, no real metric for me to compare to. However I speak for a large player base when I say that thieves have some inherent issues when it comes to facing glass cannons and such. Debate all you want but I will stand firm on my that until proven otherwise, and to do that I will need a better argument than “l2p” and “stack toughness, n00b”.

T raw.4658:

Hit either F2 F3 or F4 to find moar spells to use.

Use a utility

Ele has 20 skills to use. A thief is LUCKY if they use all of their 1-5 skills. In fact only 1 weaponset uses all 5.

its time to make a thief fort and L2p

I was expecting someone to say this, so I will give you another example spinning exactly from your words;

What do you think thieves are the only ones that dont have second plans? You failed your combo? How about you use your ~ and switch weapon? How about if you use your F1 to close the distance? or use your 7-8-9 or elite or heal to reset the fight? See, I can do this too.

How about this, thieves, l2p to you too. Classes have defense, learn to deal with this like any other profession would have to. I will not stop until all the n00bs abandon the class due to easy non-skillful rewards. Changes like this do nothing to inhibit good players while punishing players such as yourself. You have a great day

IcyFlame.9705:

I can agree that this would be good when you time aegis of something very well. You should be rewarded for that kind of play, but on the other hand you have some active defenses that can be repeated way too often that it would be impossible for a thief to land a BS.

Thats the whole point of this thread. A thief shouldn tbe impermeable to defense mechanisms of other classes. Whenever I hear “but else how are we supposed to land backstab all the time?!” all I see is people who believe they are immune to everything and everything should go their way. ALL classes are affected by defense mechanisms that can be repeated often.

Lets take for example a thief vs an ele. Thief with dagger pistol. Thief timed his pistol #5 and made the ele miss his firegrab with a 45 secs CD. The ele depended on it, but for the thief that was nothing but literally a no CD spell. See how that works? Now lets see it the other way around. The same thief now uses HS on that same smoke field and goes into stealth for a nasty backstab, the ele times his defense and uses Arcane shielding (75 seconds CD) , it shows block block block 8k backstab 4k HS and the ele is dead.

See the disparity of defense vs attack on that? Whats the CD on the thief combo? Virtually none. Whats the risk? Virtually none. Whats the CD on the ele? All of his spells are on about 40+ seconds, his defenses are on 75+ seconds CD, his risk is also going into melee with very limited options.

As you can see, all thieves out there need to stop being so selfish and stop defending something they deep down know is wrong. If you cant see the logic on that i would be more than glad to share another example. The point is; defenses are there for a reason, classes that rely on those active defenses shouldnt be pooped on. In fact, the reason why eles and mesmer are hard countered by thieves is because of this very same reason. Why it remains like this is beyond me.

DeWolfe.2174:

btw… OP, use a different screenshot than one from a couple months ago.

No, that was taken on wednesday, the day after the patc. I posted it on anothe rof threads to show the damage post patch and how things havent changed at all.

Why do people dont believe me when i tell them this? O_o

Super Riceman.8702:

Fortus.6175:

snip

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vcAQFAUlUUpmqlcxyKseRSM6RnJtoBpQv+VUB9/pAdB-TkAg0Ecp4yxlhLJXWuGEc+A
Try this build and hunt them down each match

directions unclear; engis do not enter into GC mesmer or GC ele division.

It was 2 years before release that i found out about GW2. I used to be a WoW player and was getting tired of it. I found out that guildwars was a game that you could jump in to PvP as it is and could be on equal footing.

That was the single thing that brought me to this game. Now you cant do this anymore.

>You have to level up to lvl 11 at least to get shoulder pads or else you get less armor (i tested taking armor on and off in PvP, there IS a difference…..)

>New traits now cost money, gating on a “equal footing arena”.

The single thing that brought me to this game is getting worse adn worse, I thought you had learned with the new healing skills, but apparently we didnt complain loud enough and now we gave rise to this. Little by little most people are not noticing that the “equal footing” PvP is getting gutted.

Next thing you know, since the changes are so “gradual” you will have to be lvl 80 in order to have access to new skills/skins (for a new player this is the case, since the lack both gold or a lvl 80 in order to go do those Orr events)

Thanks Anet.

Ok, let me clear things up since it seems people are not understanding me:

>I know thieves are squishy, Im well aware of that, I know they die quickly in glass cannon builds. However, they are not any squishier than an ele or mesmer with same stats, and thus they should not get any special treatment.

>Im aware the backstab build is a one trick pony, just like fresh air ele, however, they should not be put together. One is a build that has 40+ CD, has more than one skills involved, can be seen from miles away. The other one has only one skill involved, and if it were to fail, all he has to do is stealth/teleport away. Completely different.

>Backstab is whats wrong, not the class. I actually believe having too many thieves in my team will lose me the game. Why? Because they are terrible in capture the point, Most thieves resort to stealth spam, and i think we cna all agree that stealth spam is both bad for the players in the sense that it lacks true coutners, and the fact that a thief who spends his time in stealth isnt winning the game.

> All I want is all the upfront damage to be moved somewhere else. RIght now squishies are straight up pushed away from the meta almost single handlely by both thieves and condi bunkers. This needs to stop.

>I want thieves to be a nice add to the team, not a one trick pony that creates frustration but lose games. Right now thieves are too binary; either they face squishies and dominate, or face tanks and get dominated No middle ground, no team utility if they cant instagib the enemy. This is my definition of toxic; it creates a situation where both sides lose.

@Zero day

You see, despite what you might believe, I also play this game, and I want the best for it because at the end of the day I would be shooting myself in the foot. The fact that you are so defensive towards thieves and are even willing to aggressively attack a player who has provided countless constructive feedback on top of suggestions in order to improve the health balance overall (thieves included) shows that there is some underlying thing that you are afraid of. If thieves were to be balanced, people wouldnt complain (or as you childishly call, ‘cry’).

Your attitude is what needs to change. I recognized the potential in the OP’s suggestion and supported it. The second post was a hilarious remark that had humorous intent. I simply thanked the joke, which sadly has some underlying truth to it.

Anyways, @topic:

I was thinking the other day, that given how stealth lacks a true counter int he game, and how we should start moving away from upfront damage and mindless stealth spam, that perhaps in order to give thieves something to make up for it, what if there was a bonus damage that stacked overtime if the thief hadnt use stealth?

How would it work:

Just like ele’s fire trait line, for every period of time spent outside fire they get a higher chance to burn attackers. Except that we have to make it appealing to thieves, enough to stop stealth stacking. Lets say every 5 second soutside stealth you gain 40 power, up to 160 extra power, the trade-off would be -60 power in the first 2 seconds of stealth, giving them a meaniful choice to attack slower or wait and let the defender have some breathing room.

third this.

I have lvl 2 characters that now i have to level up in order to PvP with….. and they are quite a LOT of them…

this might be on your part. I used to have the same error. When you open the application from the game, right click it and open it as administrator instead. I know it souds stupid considering you are on the admin account but thats how you have to open it.

Bowflex.4502:

It’s not like the players have a choice. If you nerf our damage or scaling further, you’ll have to buff our survivability,

nobody is denying that, however, toxic things has to go away, and backstab is toxic. Still, if you think GC thieves are the squishiest and least survivable builds out there then you need to revise your build and spell rotations, because they are by far one of the hardest things to kill, and thats including bunkers. How you ask? Stealth. On top of that, teleports that have no CD, dodges and blinds. An ele would give a limb for such survival rate that thieves enjoy.

IMO thieves damage as it is is fine, except for backstab and a couple more spammble spells. They need to have stealth reworked, and given more team utility and less single target DPS.

Bowflex.4502:

The OP is nuts. 13k backstab. One in a million

You know something taht gets on my nerves easily?

I tell people that im getting hit by 10k+ backstabs, nobody believes me. Everyone throw their highest backstabs and give it for granted thats the highest it can go (eg 4k, 5k etc). I show them proof of otherwise, and I get hell.

I tell them I was getting hit 11k-13k backstabs ALL GAME around, on several games from different people, and nobody believes me. Apparently I have to fill my pictures folder with 10k+ backstab screen shots to prove my point. And even then I beckon someone, somewhere, will find a way to turn a blind eye on it, nitpick on some other detail and then give me hell for it.

There is just no winning here. Apparently it has to take everyone playing a squishy build and playing enough PvP to know just how frustrating it is. Sure, since everyone plays bunkers and/or condi builds, you get to know nothing.

Thieves ARE pushing away GC builds, and you people are so unconsciously afraid of it that you dont even dare to play them anymore, and give it for granted that thieves were meant to push away all those builds, and even go as far as to justify it !! Shame, it is truly shameful.

Earlier today i was hit by a necro fear, I instantly melted. When I looked at the recap it showed that the fear had hit 22 times and each time had done damage. It doesnt happen all the time (im guessing not all necros proc damage on fear or it happens under certain circumstances) but it has happened several times, more often now that probably some necros are spreading the information among themselves.

Please look into it. Unfortnately i dont know much more other than that.

For some bizarre reason, minions are doing incredible amount of damage in a split of a second.

Unfortunately i couldnt take a screenshot but these seem to be the biggest offenders;

ranger minions/spirits and necros minions.

Great suggestion! I was brainstorming myself on some fix for it but this might just do! Backstab wouldnt be much of an issue this way, although some tuning down of the skill could be done given that it is too much upfront damage.

Eloquence.5207:

- “If you nerf stealth, we will be left with no defence!!11!!”
- “Why don’t you fix Warriors first or PU Mesmers first!”
- “L2P”
- “Stealth is working as intended… L2P”
- “Stealth trap”
- “Stack toughness” <—— HAHAHHAHHAHA

Pick one, or of them.

lmao! +1. Thief players in a nutshell.

JasonDias.5923:

Fortus.6175:

Nothing has changed……..

You posted the same screenshot you started this thread with. I can tell you Backstab doesn’t hit nearly as hard with the change to Ferocity. I used to hit for 7k now 4.5k.

No, that screenshot was an edit (look at the edit date) This is POST PATCH, wednesday 4/16/2014 to be more precise. Perhaps I should add that to the screenshot….

Belgarion.1975:

Msg to OP : you are not boring to post same screenshoot since 4 month ?

Screenshot was taken 2 days ago, yo. However, if what you want is a daily screenshot I would be more than glad to provide it, since it is daily that I encounter these 10k+ backstabs…….

Like I have repeatedly said; people, stop nitpicking and focus on the real issue at hand. This upfronted, unavoidable damage should not exist, period. Eve if it were 4 months old, even if it were 1 year old. This issue has been here since release already! Fix it at once for crying out loud!!

Zero Day.2594:

Fortus.6175:

NinjaEd.3946:

Was there a forum daily added that I’m not aware? I see “thief op” posts so often, it could only explain there is some reward to making one.

@Op, you just need to practice. Also in that photo, you took 8k in burning, something tells me you lack condi clear and melted shortly after a backstab.

In case you didnt know, cleansing a condition which gets reapplied will still display the damage, I was fighting a burning guradian. I wasnt even at half hp, he couldnt pressure me at all becasue of my cleansing. The thief came and finished me off with 2 skills (as you can see) Stop trying to nickpick everything about my build. 13k backstab is by any standard, too much of a out-of-stealth skill with 4 seconds CD.

Lost 1v2.
Cries OP.

Btw most people now saying they can’t reach 13k with the recent 10% crit damage nerf.

This screenshot was taken yesterday, post patch btw….

I dont care about losing a 2v1, I dont care dying in a 2v1. However, it does not change the fact that the skill is toxic and OP.

edit: …. dat delete…

SoulSin.5682:

sPvP thieves don’t hit for 13k.

NinjaEd.3946:

Was there a forum daily added that I’m not aware? I see “thief op” posts so often, it could only explain there is some reward to making one.

@Op, you just need to practice. Also in that photo, you took 8k in burning, something tells me you lack condi clear and melted shortly after a backstab.

In case you didnt know, cleansing a condition which gets reapplied will still display the damage, I was fighting a burning guradian. I wasnt even at half hp, he couldnt pressure me at all becasue of my cleansing. The thief came and finished me off with 2 skills (as you can see) Stop trying to nickpick everything about my build. 13k backstab is by any standard, too much of a out-of-stealth skill with 4 seconds CD.

I have decided to rebump this to avoid multiple threads about this, I have attached a screenshot on the OP.

Nothing has changed……..

Chaotic.9742:

@fortus
I sure as heck don’t fall into that “self proclaimed pro” category if you even knew me haha. I’m pretty humble and just play to get good and enjoy the game. Sure I think I’m decent/above average, .

Well, Im sorry if I offended you, not my intention, believe me. But if you think just because you are more known and because for whatever reason you are among the “pro” that your opinion is set on stone and above us all other “not pro”, or most “pro” kindly call us; scrubs… then we might not get to reach an understanding. Now, Im sure thats not what you meant and thats why i always try to keep it civilized and constructive.

Chaotic.9742:

Not sure why people post rage threads then rage at constructive criticism…

Good, so we can all agree that constructive criticism shouldnt be ignroed, right? Ok then, please, just for the sake of argument, at least open this links and give it a quick overview a these threads. Completely constructive, completely civilized, even with possible solutions and community solutions.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Backstab-1/first

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/sPvP-Thieves-driving-away-damage-dealers/first

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Stealth-Should-be-the-Reward/first

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Im-all-for-Balance-but/first

Im sorry, but as far as civilized and frustrated goes, i believe these threads (except the last one) strinke a good point, and a point agreed by MANY people in the community. Sure, my name is sullied already, im coined as a “thief hater” by many and just seeing my name makes them predisposed, but Im willing to put my name at stake for what I stand, and I stand for getting toxic things out of the game.

I also want thieves to be viable, i want them to be useful, but i want to remove the bad parts, for the health of the game and for my own as well. Believe it or not, we have lost several players due to this, including personal friends, guildies and even pros who rerolled thieves or even altogether left.

Im sorry if this thread came out as rage, but I find that after 2 years, by now these stuff would be already sorted out. If Anet still sees it as ok then thats where my problem is, just like they see warriors ok, which they are not (numbers wise, not toxic wise)

Anyways, Im sure this thread will fall on the path of the mist and never be seen by a dev because, quite frankly, at this point im still to believe thye just dont care if it doesnt involve warriors or engis.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Another hotjoin discussion. If a backstab hit you for 13k then you used frenzy or you played naked. Don’t blame a skill because you’re build is miserable.

The average backstab is around 5k.

YOUR average backstab is 5k because YOUR build is miserable. This thief was averaging 11-13k backstabs all game. I wasnt naked, I had 21k health and some toughness thrown in, with a mesmer. Im sorry but there is no skill in stealth atatcks that can be sneaked with teleports.

@Everyone else in this thread:

Back when I first noted that backstab was too strong for a stealthed attack, where I was consistently getting hit by 8-10k on a daily basis with BS on sPvP nobody believed me. I brought proof, still nobody believed me. I then create a thief and proceed to recreate the damage, I post the proof, still nobody believe backstab can hit that hard.

I now bring 13k backstab proof, with a screenshot, I didnt take screenshot of the others because I didnt think the community would be this dense and thick, but once again Im proven wrong.

PEOPLE, what the heck are you doing with your builds that you cant consistently hit 8k+ with your backstabs? Are you that bad of a player?

Oh I know, maybe because thieves are so dominant that the few people that dare to play power based builds get the shaft. I too know how to play condi tanky, I do know how to play thieves, I do know how to be a zoo keeper. I decided those gameplays are boring, I find them completely brain dead. I want to be able to play a GC. The ONLY thing stopping me isnt warriors, isnt mesmers, isnt necro: it is thieves with their spammable teleports and backstabs. This NEEDS to end, thieves LITERALLY hard counter to the point of unfair, illogical, toxic and frustrating whatever is left of us ele/mesmer power based GC.

Chaotic.9742:

No offense OP but I’ve been running ele and destroying thieves (except the good ones it’s about 50/50 unless they are like Caed level good which makes it closer to 40/60) so I honestly do think it’s a l2p here. I run d/d and if you know the attacks coming dodge (count seconds in stealth to time it), shocking aura, earth 4, etc. heck, I can eat the backstab then swap to water and top myself off. This is likely a gimmick thief build with might stacking and all you need to do is dodge it then drop him in seconds. Working as intended IMO…

Look, Choatic, there are several kind of players, Im sorry I dont live up to YOUR standards, Im sorry im not Caed or you or some other selfproclaimed or community proclaimed pro player. This game is composed of several layers, and you cant simply balance the game around top 1%, because at the end of the day all you will have left is that 1%.

I hate to do these kind of reference but take WoW and LoL. I reached 2.2k rating in WoW. Perhaps not the best out there, but I was one of the top scorer. For my skill, the game was balanced, for lower skill gamers, the game was still balanced, for high skill it was still balanced. Now LoL. The game had toxic skills and champions. As it stands now, it has both balance for low and high skills. It has eport attention becasue both community can relate.

I might not be a pro, but I understand my class, I can defend myself against thieves that I know are there. I have won vs thieves too, however, this isnt about constantly being losing to one, this is about toxic skills. Backstab, as iot stands now, might not even win you most fights, however, it is extremely toxic for both unskilled and skilled players.

I’ve got my pride but I admit Im not the best player out there, sorry, but if yo want to keep me and mny other people (who have left because of this very same reason; thieves) then the game has to have some global balance, not some elite balance. Just my view, anyways, im off to work, I need to burn my anger on some paper. All I want is some chance for everyone to have fun, not just the stealth spammers backstabbing bastarrds

@ Scramble, i believe that was a personal attack yet I will let it slide for the sake of civilized arguments. Waste CDs are the ones you use without being able to confirm whether they were effective. Believe it or not, some classes dont have initiate that regenerates almost without notice. I hope you keep it civilized here and provide with true countermeasures rather than subjective “keep it in the air, man! Just spam it all, something has got to hit, hopefully” Luck =/= skill.

Scrambles.2604:

You gotta swim in your AoEs, man. Otherwise, there are lots of builds/classes that just straight trump other ones. Switch to some defensive utilities if you can anticipate a thief is around.

.

This is probably the most pathetic excuse I have keep hearing since day one on stealth “waste your CDs, man, wave your non-melee weapon around hoping that the thief is bad enough to stand on them or even walk towards them! Remember, all thieves are mentally handicapped and will literally walk into the your long CD AoEs, I guarantee it”

Im sorry, but no. I have played thieves myself, I KNOW how unfair they are, I know their CD, I know their tricks (most of them), I know their weakness. When I play thieves, I dont get hit by AoEs bcause I dont walk in a straight line where i stealthed, I dont get hit by melee weapons because I only close in when Im ready to attack, not walk around them as they swing the sword. Ranged weapons cant afford to 111111 around.

Sorry, I want true counterplay; time to retaliate, a skill that does so much damage should give the defender an equal opportunity to inflict just as much. I want to be able to dodge it, I want to be able to block it, I want to be able to blind it. I want their dmaage to not be upfronted by more 30% upfronted and 70% sustained. Right now it is 90% upfronted, 10% HS/blind into stealth and repeat.

Once again, you cant call this a game of skills if all there is for a defender is walking around aimlessly waving their sword like a retartd hoping to get lucky. You want to have e-sport attention? Start adding skillful decisions.

Couldnt target him at the moment it happened so I couldnt see the might stacks, but he was constatnly using dagger/pistol smoke to disappear into stealth. Constatnly hitting 11-13k bacstabs

Im sorry, but a thief is not defined as tissue paper. Want to know what true tissue paper is? An ele with no stealth to disappear into. Thieves have low hp yes, but by no mean they are the easiest to kill class in the game, in fact, I would dare to say a well played thief is nearly virtually impossible to kill with the access to blinds/teleports/stealth.

All I want is an equal chance to retaliate vs them, and less upfront damage and more over-time damage. Right now a backstab has literally no counterplay other than hope you can run faster than a thief with multiple teleports. That is not fun, that is not counterplay, that is no skill.

Look, I dont mind a 10k dragon tooth hitting me. If you fail to see a squishy ele coming a mile away, cast a long casting skill, not see a long winding skill and then hit by a static skill with a giant red circle then it is your own fault.

I dont mind getting hit with an evicerate because if you cant see a warrior with a hatchet coming at you, casting a skill that leaps into you and then dodge it then it is your fault.

What I cant stand is being fighting a 2v2 or 3v3, doing perfectly fine, dodging all AoEs, doing my job perfectly, having great awareness, then all of the sudden my health spikes down to 0. Backstab from stealth shouldnt be so powerful. There is absolutely NO COUNTERPLAY. You cant dodge, you cant block, you cant blind, you cant see it, and even if you know it is coming, there is absolutely nothing you can do by surviving one because 4 seconds later the second one is coming, for sure

Backstab needs its damage scaled down, by a LOT. Period. If you want people to have a good time in PvP, stop cattering to skilless strategies such as spam-from-stealth-nukes-till-you-win-or-run-away-if-they-attack-back.

Please Anet, this is getting out of hands.

Sincerely, a tired PvP costumer.

edit : at the time I was fighting a guardian, no vulnerability stacks, he was constatntly hitting 12-13k backstabs through the entire game.

EDIT #2 : Screenshot taken April 15, AFTER the patch.

With the new patch I fabled up a new build, works wonders in 1v1, incredibly tanky for being an ele. One big issue; most defense are active defense, require understanding on both the enemy and your CDs.

basically goes like this:

30/0/30/0/10

On fire traits that apply burn on crit, cleansing fire on 3 condi, and the new trait blinds on burn

On earth bleed duration, toughness to condi and the new trait that gives crit immunity

On arcane 50% more endurance regen scepter.

Rune of krait if you use elite a lot, or runes of forgot the name, but bleed duration plus death nova when going down. Gem: Condi damage main, toughness, precision. Sigil of extended bleed and extended burn (20% each)

Spells signet of fire, fire hatchet if you want, signet of air instead for speed and stun breaker and choice of armor of earth or cleansing fire. My choice was cleansing fire/Signet of fire/signet of air. Ether Renewal for a heal.

Gameplay; sit on earth vs power based caster, mostly the melee ones. Focus earth 4 has 3 cond cleanse, gives cripple to nearby enemies, 3 sec reflection and also act as a blast, ver important spell. Your form of defense is blinds, on eearth you got one, autoattacks will crit and apply burn, that is also a burn, signet of fire is another blind, cleansing fire is another blind, but you gotta time them right, 5 seconds apart. Fire #4 is an AoE line of blind for incoming foes, fire aura is your “everyone gets blinded” spell, scepter fire #1 also is a blind on demand (ish), the only instant blind is signet of air, which is also the stunbreaker. Basically, sitting on earth you have access to 3 blinds without internal CD (air, fire proc and earth #3)

Condis do a LOT of damage, and sitting on earth stack them nicely, you have good cleansing with earth #4, ether renewal, cleansing fire, and you cannot be critted, so basically you just gotta outlast them. Between burn, blind, bleed and crippled they will have a hard time keeping up with cleansing. If you are too pressured earth#5 can be used to get a breathing, can use healing while invulnerable, can finish off people, can re position.

Effective vs other condition stackers such as necros and warriors.
Decent vs power based speccs
Hard time vs bunkers.
Impossible time vs thieves.

Good for keeping points like home, great dueling capabilities, limited teamfight potential other than the blind AOE with fire 2 and 4. Keep in mind fire 3 cleanses conditions too and give endurance for you to keep up with the fight.

Lastly, vs ranged foes, fire is more effective than earth, so cycling between both works better, although in fire you dont have bleeds, the constant blind does nicely.

so if I target an ally it will ehal around that ally? If I target myself too?

Is the heal around yourself or around your target? I find it confusing that the heal has a 300 radius and it would heal around your target instead of you, or am I misreading?

Chase.8415:

Only bags that state they are equivalent as looting a mob is affected. Any other bag that does not mention this is not affected by magic find.

If you dont mind, can you show me where it specifically says only mobs and that it cannot affect other bags? not distrusting you but I would prefer if it is specifically differentiated