Guild Wars 2

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Kidel.2057:

Since so many are asking for condi cleanse I’m sure it will be considered. Shiro+Glint has none.

Revenant as a whole is designed to not have much condition cleanse. That’s not to say there won’t be any tweaks for removal, but it won’t be any large changes. can’t have everything.

^This. Every build has its counter and unless we are running Mallyx that will probably be our counter. At least we get access to Mallyx unlike some classes that can not and will never be able to handle condi’s well.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Hey, everyone! I’m back to bring you all a list of changes based on feedback from our first Beta Weekend Event.

I guess I’ll ask here seeing as you’re the most active developer on the forum right now: Will we get threads and general developer feedback on the other elite specs like Tempest and Dragon Hunter too, now that they had their first beta weekends?

Eles, Necros and Guardians seem to really lack – even minor – developer responses in their plights.

I think the general consensus is that at least in the case of Ele’s and Guards those classes have an already sound base class where as the Rev is new and needs a lot more feedback and work. Not that that excuses the Devs from giving less attention to the other and equally important classes ,but those classes are done with the exception of the elite spec where as the Rev isn’t finished in any capacity.

BlazeQ.1095:

Glad to see almost all of these changes, I am concerned that I might have to dumb down my build and get travelers runes again though Being slow in a roam/havoc group is never a good thing.

If you run Glint you get an infinite swiftness with if I remember correctly a -1 Upkeep cost so you shouldn’t need those traveler runes.

Agreed feel so much better about this class right now.

roman.6390:

I wouldn’t redesign much. Just significantly lower energy costs on utility skills (and some weapon skills) and put very short 3-8 second cooldowns on utilities, excluding upkeep skills. I get people wanting excess energy over 50 to carry over on stance swap, but I always burnt through my energy before swapping so I never saw it as an issue.

I see the revenant as a mortal channeling immensely powerful beings. It makes sense to me to only be able to manage their power in short bursts before running out of energy, as if you were only able to tap into small amounts of their strength, and any more would be overwhelming. And mechanically I think the more often you need to stance dance the more entertaining it will be to play.

I think energy is close to where it needs to be, there’s just a fine line to balance the energy cost, and the current lack of cooldowns. I’d hate to see the meta to end up being walk into a crowd and spam jade wind while your team does the rest.

I sure hope they don’t balance around thematics.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Mournilg.4870:

I guess upkeeps will be something like -3/-4, so you can activate 2 and still not be out of energy in 8 seconds.
Well at least i hope you can keep at least one permanently with still a low but positive energy regen

Some are cheap, some are expensive. You’ll be able to keep multiple up at the same time. A lot of the inspiration for the skills came from what you might find a bard style class doing in other games.

I’ll be showing it all off plus some extra things on the POI this Friday which will give a much better idea of how everything works.

Ok. I want to see how you’re going to make this work. Five skills that are all upkeep skills. With no way to gain energy other than passively, it means that even if you were able to maintain multiple signets at the same time, this will effectively ruin your ability to use weapon skills.

Please explain why weapons have energy cost, again. When you were designing this class, did nobody say, not once, “hey Roy, you know if you use the Jalis taunt, elite, Shiro elite, etc, right after switching to the legend, you can do nothing but autoattack for several seconds?”

Tell me, what other class has to sacrifice every single ability they have for multiple seconds just to use a single utility? How does that work? Where in your design process did you think this was a good idea?

And what about condition clear? Is this yet another legend that lacks it? I didn’t read anything about traits, so I’m hoping that all the condi clear we get hasn’t already been shown to us. If you haven’t noticed, conditions are dominating the game right now, and Revenant is severely lacking in condition clears that aren’t tied to a single legend.

At least if we had a shout legend we could use Trooper/Soldier runes.

Look man I’ve been saying this for like the last week ,but there are still a bunch of people in these forums that have zero sense and keep fighting against when its the most logical choice. Just remove energy cost of weapon skills and the class instantly gets 100% better.

CorrynnStarr.7942:

Im not so sure herald should be the right thing… or bard… We have a mist based heavy class and we have assigned it a classicaly medium class role and title? Not something i would have done, but im not on the team either. To me it just doesnt fit. Should feel more paladin like imho, as they have been the classic heavy protector class so to speak.

That class already exists it’s called Guardian.

Xenon.4537:

So to solve the stacking problems in PvE… Anet designs a spec entirely around stacking for these upkeep auras. Flawless logic.

I Imagine these Upkeeps have a pretty large radius if its anything like Pain Absorption the effected area is quite huge so plenty of room for not stacking.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Mournilg.4870:

I guess upkeeps will be something like -3/-4, so you can activate 2 and still not be out of energy in 8 seconds.
Well at least i hope you can keep at least one permanently with still a low but positive energy regen

Some are cheap, some are expensive. You’ll be able to keep multiple up at the same time. A lot of the inspiration for the skills came from what you might find a bard style class doing in other games.

I’ll be showing it all off plus some extra things on the POI this Friday which will give a much better idea of how everything works.

Some quick questions:

1. For the purpose of rune synergy, do the Facets count as “signets” or not?
2. Spear or harpoon for underwater? The article mentions spear, but in the interview, you call it harpoon.

(But to be honest, I always get confused between both underwater weapon types. Sometimes, the melee versions are both called spear and harpoon, while the ranged versions are both called speargun and harpoongun. And sometimes, when people refer to spear and when they refear to harpoon, they’re talking about the two different spear vs harpoongun weapon types. So confusing. :S)

EDIT

I really want to like this, but I think that upkeep skills are easily the worst aspect of the current energy system.

I disagree. I think upkeep skills are great energy sinks for whenever you don’t need to use your other utilities are your energy bar happens to be close to full. That is especially the case in PvE.

The problem I think most people have with Upkeep skills is the fact that you can’t do anything ,but auto attack while they are up and they are not nearly strong enough to compensate for that fact not to mention the incredibly boring gameplay that promotes.

Killyox.3950:

But… don’t other classes hold bow in left hand while pulling the string with right? Would fit tbh.

Just dunno what role it would serve vs hammer (which is pretyy cool)

Could be condi ranged … or just a faster power based ranged with more mobility ,but still more likely its a shield I just think a Shield that uses all 5 weapon ability slots would be sick.

Iavra.8510:

It’s kinda hard to see but i think the Tempest isn’t wielding a mh weapon, either:
http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Tempest_concept_art.jpg

Chronomancer is cut off, so it could be either way:
http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Chronomancer_concept_art.jpg

Yeah bit hard to tell with Tempest ,but guess we will find out in a few days.

process execution.8014:

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

I still think we need an energy generation skill on each of the weapons. Maybe on the #5s. This would of course depend on CDs still being in place.

Like you gain 10 energy in addition to the other affects.

I agree that skill-based energy gain is the most complete solution, and probably the easiest for ANet to tune as time goes on. Conceptually, it should be fine for all revenant skills to cost both energy and time to varying degrees; it was the basis of GW1. What baffles me is that ANet chose to draw from their own legacy but only used half of it!

The push/pull of energy management only works if there are ways to replenish it as well as spend it. Only using a fixed regen rate effectively turns energy into a second time-based resource which feels awkward. Resetting energy on legend-swap is nice in that it means there’s always options, but it’s a bit of a false choice if the legend is not relevant to the current situation.

Ideally, energy gain should be available in all builds, but as a skill-based effect and not a passive proc (which would end up reducing to time again). E.g.:

• Phase Smash – Gain 6 Energy for each disabled foe struck.
• Debilitating Slam – Gain 4 Energy for each foe struck.
• Unrelenting Assault – When striking a foe, gain 1 Energy for each stack of Vulnerability on them.
• Echoing Eruption – Gain 1 Energy for each unique condition on foes struck.

Additionally, traits could also be used (active use only!) to provide cross-build methods of gaining energy. Where they go is a secondary concern (as long as specific specialisations aren’t favoured), so couple of basic ideas could be:

• Gain 10 Energy when you interrupt a foe.
• Gain 20 Energy when you successfully remove a boon from a foe.
• Gain 5 Energy when you block or evade an attack.
• Gain 2 Energy for each condition you remove from an ally.
• Double your current Energy when swapping legends (perhaps instead of the existing reset mechanic).

This would create vastly more depth to the revenant playstyle than arbitrary legend swapping or autoattack spam solutions, and would be both more enjoyable and more rewarding when used skillfully.

It’s quite refreshing to see someone else on these forums on the same page as me. I couldn’t of said this better myself. Please Roy go with this model it would really take the class to the next level.

Killyox.3950:

It looked like bow in the artwork tbh :P

I think it has already been datamined that it is a shield ,but given the artwork the guy isn’t holding a weapon in his other hand which can mean 1 of 2 things for me … its either a Bow or possibly a 2h shield that uses all 5 skills both of which would be bad kitten .

People want a non combo’d swiftness buff. They all know about this.

Kidel.2057:

I like the fact that energy management is something you need to put your brain on instead of just mashing buttons. If you add energy regen on WS you basically end up spamming utility, then spam some ws, then spam utility again, then weaponswap and use some more ws cd, then spam utility again and repeat.
You get no punisment for wrong management. Just another skillspam class. no brain involved.

I feel like you want something that this game just isn’t about. You keep going back to skill spam and it doesn’t make sense. What you described is literally what you already do. In the current state Rev doesn’t punish you for using weapon skills so in reality they would need to increase to weapon skill cost for you to get what you want. Right now you simply use weapon skills on cd you don’t need to worry about their energy because as many people have said they don’t really cost much energy just stall the regen of it. So in its current state you use ws and then use utilities why those weapon skills are on cd or simply swap weapons to use more ws which you don’t even really need to Legend Swap to do. This game is all about activity they wanted to create a fun action packed game where you are always on your toes. Currently the only choice is either use energy or don’t which means if you choose to latter you are just using aa or doing nothing or simply forcing a Legend Swap when it isn’t needed. None of these are good mechanics that remotely fit in to the fast paced combat style gw2 has. Not sure what else to say you just keep crying about skill spam I guess you just want to use 1 skill per 10 sec or something?

Ardid.7203:

I think they need to clean the mechanics and build up from that:
1- Weapon Skills should NOT use energy. Weapon Skills should have important and very well balanced CDs.
2- Legend Skills should NOT have CDs ever. Legend Skills should have important and very well balanced energy costs.
3- Energy should recharge based on SUCESSFUL use of Weapon Skills only. The recharge should be small and slow when landing easy/fast/spammable skills, and bigger and faster when landing difficult/slow/strategic skills.
4- SUCCESSFUL use of Legend Skills should haste the swapping rate of Weapons, allowing to use the other set of Weapon Skills sooner.

IMO these 4 simple rules would allow Arena Net to better balance every skill, while giving the Revenant a truly unique playstyle, and guiding players through a more consistent and rewarding learning method to master the new profession.

Other two measures that could help:

5- Make energy slowly go back to its starting point at 50%. If you are over 50% and don’t recharge energy, it will slowly go down to 50%. If you are under 50% and don’t spend any energy, it will slowly go up until 50%. This will allow you to better disengage and re-engage, while not being unfair or disrruptive.

6a- Make Weapon Skills reward less energy with every consecutive repetition. Make Legend Skills spend more energy with every consecutive repetition. This will make “camping” on only one weapon or legend undesirable.
6b-Additionaly (or alternatively), make swapping Weapon recharge energy, and swapping Legends lower Weapon Skills CDs.

Sounds good too me. I don’t know about you guys but I played a Rogue in WoW and its awfully boring having your energy have a set regen rate that is unchangeable we should definitely get more fun ways to regen our energy.

krzysiek.9061:

@Kidel
I get the point but Thief [it’s to Griffith too] has traits that work with initatives (more points, faster recharge) and Revenant has nothing: no traits with base energy, no traits with lowering costs. Completely nothing.
If they’re going to leave it as it is, they need to change something with energy costs.

It’s only my opinion, and you may say that I’m completly noob aka’Press all the buttons! but I didn’t feel that this system (in BWE1) punishes me for spamming skills. Costs were too high, and for me it was completely unplayable.

Some one mentioned in another thread Chaser I believe that they could make ws generate energy instead of cost energy. I think this would require a lot of work on the devs part to rebalance everything (not that it is even close to balanced atm anyway) ,but I think this would be awesome and make the class way more proactive and it would definitely give the class the more “Push and Pull” they describe it as having in the POI vid. Also Kidel I really think you misunderstood what Roy was trying to say in that video. Pushing is more of using that energy and then Pulling is more of letting it regen and not so much just Legend Swapping to get it all back instantly thats more like Pushing and straight up Hulk Pulling.

This is awesome man. Great gameplay it was quite informative. The Rev definitely has mad potential though I am a bit worried about the obvious flaws this video uncovers. The fact that you are having to save your energy for essentially 1 Utility per Legend is a bit concerning. I hope they intend to allow us at least a few build options where we can actually play the aggressor here it seems more of slowly whittling down your opponent while using Reposting Shadows if you get cc’d and Pain Absorption if you get condis on you lol. You barely even got to use ulti’s except for on the Necro. I also hope this isn’t going to become the new standard of gameplay where it takes 14 years to kill a single person because that’s really gonna make PvP a bore.

You also seemingly proved a point I was trying to make in a few other threads that Legend Swapping on cooldown was not optimal ,but rather you use it as the parameters of the fight change which is exactly what you did so cheers for that.

All in all great job man I think you created some excellent footage of a Rev playing at a high level and that should definitely help them going forward with the class.

Rygg.6237:

Suggested solutions: Readjust effects on legends, and give some party wide boons via traits, Salvations has a lot of redundant + Healing Power that could be easily condensed in 1 or 2 traits, as I said Assassin’s Pressence is not enough justification to make Revenant a valuable asset to a party when you can do better if you pick a profession with better DPS and pary support (currently all other professions, even Ranger and Necro have acces to both better party support and damage output).

The idea of removing energy costs on heals is nice as they already have cooldowns excepting for ventari, but willing the tablet just does so little healing it’ll goe unnoticed.

Stance Changes:

Legendary Assasin
Enchanted Daggers: 1) Remove the delay on the daggers it’s not needed, damage output in revenant isn’t that great to worry about it, it’s not like your autoattack will kill a player on a full chain with the daggers, not even UA or SotM will do that given they hit with the full animation. 2) if the delay is still justified then double the base initial heal to 3200 3) make the daggers syphon life AND remove one condition per hit maximum 3 conditions.
Riposting Shadows: good skill, reduce energy cost to 25-30
Phase Traversal: Frigid Blitz gives you the option to be a gap closer at a much lower energy cost, unblockable it’s just good on PvP, I say increase energy cost to 25 and add grant pary wide fury 6s or migth 2 stacks 6s or protection 6s per enemy hit while the buff is active, a tmost you’d be able to use 2-3 skills on LAS with the higher energy cost so this skill can’t be abused.
Impossible Odds: with -10 energy upkeep you can use it for 3-5 seconds at most, it can be compared to Frenzy in Quickness uptime availability, but it’s weaker since Frenzy is also a stunbreaker and gives Might, it should either give 2 seconds of Quickness and superspeed or add an offensive damage management option: Siphon 300-400 health per hit or transfer conditions on hit like the original did.
Jade Winds: the skill is just fine as it is. If anything it just needs to work as intended

Great ideas unfortunately they got a lot more work to do then just this stuff. I actually find it funny that there are no combo finishers on the swords like sword 2 should at the least be a whirl finisher and maybe sword 1 Brutal Blade should be a projectile finisher or something. In fact a lot of the Rev’s weapons need combos assigned. Aside from this I think they need to pick between Blinds or Evades or maybe a bit of both and spread that out on some of our skills because we have like zero active mitigation. Throw all that in with the energy dilemma and they got their work cut out for them.

Brit.9726:

My main gripe isn’t the fact that Energy costs are high… it’s that everything uses it, on top of CD’s… and so far how the Class is now (esp using a build around Shiro), it’s exhausting.

You have this Legend, this stance… add the Revenant class mechanics to it, Shiro who’s idea is going for a bursty-type DPS way of playing the Class, and what you get is a Build that has Energy depleting quicker than the Burst can happen, and no retreat (lose of Energy or no GTFO Utility as it’s all locked at 3 atm, with no option). So the limited option you have, add to the Energy problems are reasons why players are looking at the Energy system as something that needs to be reworked.

If we had options to chose the skills ourselves, then it prob. won;t be that big on an issue, but we’re forced into these skills and the Energy burn costs with it.

I agree it’s just far too clunky atm so many ways to spend energy and very few ways to regenerate it. Essentially you really do have to choose between damage and utility you can’t do both you have to burn through your whole bar to do any worthwhile damage which leaves you completely vulnerable or you can take the more passive approach which gets you nowhere if you’ve seen scowia’s vids doing 1v1s is more like just waiting for someones teammate to show up so the scales get tipped and the fight ends.

Chaser.2870:

Just an opinion

1. generate some energy when struck (like warrior’s cleansing Ire trait)
2. using wepon skills are generate energy(not spent energy) generate amount is based its cooltime (#1 skills cannot generate energy, more cooldown, more energy generate)

I actually like this idea. If they balanced the utilities around the Rev’s weapon skills actually generating energy that way the Rev feels a lot more proactive rather then just playing the waiting game for that kitten to regenerate. I highly doubt they will do this ,but man do I like the idea.

Kidel.2057:

Griffith.7238:

Kidel you say that the energy cost is there to punish you yet you are all for reducing the ws cost you realize this directly conflicts with your own logic.

there is a difference between even 1 and 0. If they have no energy cost you can still do them with no energy left.
If they have 5-10, then it’s fine. You can’t do them if you managed poorly, but still they don’t sap too deep into your pool.
you still get punished for bad management as they want.

another change I’d made is 0 energy cost on healing skill. Those 2 changes alone would greatly increase the skill throughput, without affecting the mechanic at all.

krzysiek.9061:

Legends are the class mechanic. We relay on them. Weapons dont’t change with legends, they’re not part of the mechanic. We want to get rid of energy from weapon not from legends.

that’s not true it seems. Weaponskills are something you can do because of revenant magic, and you can only do that if you gather energy from the mists.
The only difference is that ws are not related to a particular legend, but they still are related to the mist.

Also if ws had no cost people would just use all the energy in the bar without managing it.

And it would be no different then a Thief blowing all his initiative on Heartseeker aka completely useless.

Kidel.2057:

Griffith.7238:

Vennyhedgie.5369:

Honestly I dont think removing the energy cost is a good idea. Having an energy cost means they can have impactful skills on shorter CDs (or they said something of the like in the first revenant reveal back when). I dont wanna be that guy but I think people are just plain outright playing Revenant wrong. I never had an issue with being out of energy for my weapon or heal skills. The ONLY time this has happened was right after using an upkeep skill (usually shiro’s, and honestly that skill’s energy drain needs to be toned down for what it does)

The problem is they said this yes ,but in reality our cds aren’t any lower then other classes when it comes to weapon skills and they still don’t do as much damage. Or have utility tied into them like Blinds, Evades, Etc.

Isn’t that resolved just by lowering energy cost on some skills and increasing the effectiveness of others? Why do you want to get rid of the class mechanic?
The only skill that should cost 0 energy is probably the healing one.

Essentially what Mournilg said. I don’t want to remove the class mechanics simply keep it to the part of the class that is unique there is nothing unique or new about weapon skills. Trust me I am all for challenge I have participated in competitive esports my whole life Halo, CoD, you name it I’m even a plat 2 jungle main in LoL and I hate that game. Because of this experience I can recognize when something is smooth in its presentation of challenge and when it is just outright clunky right now Rev is very much the latter. I personally think removing energy cost from weapon skills will take some slight micromanagement off the class not enough to make it an easy class to play ,but enough to make it feel a lot less clunky. When it is all said and done if the class maintains the exact complexity it has now I’m fine with that under the one condition that if it’s going to require so much micromanagement when I master it (and I will) I better feel like a god because high risk low reward isn’t gonna work out for me or anyone else with a brain.

Kidel you say that the energy cost is there to punish you yet you are all for reducing the ws cost you realize this directly conflicts with your own logic. Already the ws only simply stall your energy regen they don’t really take from it if they reduce it then you will result in a net gain of energy by the time the animation finishes nothing is punishing about that. The only alternative to not using the ws is to just aa , stand there, or run away none of which provide for exciting or viable gameplay so if you think the devs are going to be ok with that I think you are sorely mistaken. You can drain your whole energy bar by casting 1 Jade Winds sounds to me like you are saying that using your energy unwisely is using it in any way shape or form cause at the current state almost all the utilities completely drain you of energy.

skowcia.8257:

Griffith.7238:

Guess you didn’t watch his videos. Shy of a few 1v1’s most of which were just stalls he got obliterated in every teamfight the moment someone looked at him. I won’t blame that on his skill because I’ve seen the state of the class.

Thats cause we start with too low amount of energy which doesnt give us a lot of space. Combined that with subpar heal ability from Shiro and utilities to prevent damage like teleports, invuls, stealth, blinds, protection on demand, evades lack of stunbreaks and condi removals the end result is not surprising to anyone. Basically all revenant can do is one riposting shadow at the start of the fight and gg. Pushing it out i am still unable to come even close to what i can do with guardian. Even my pewpew does better due to stealth on lb3 and signet of stone with gs block and swoop to gtfo.

Some cost of weapon skills are simply too high, we all know it, but thats not a reason to remove it completely, we need Roy to adjust these values. As i said no weapon skill should go above 10 energy cost. I would say that weapon skills should cost 5 energy but i would like to see what will happen first with my proposed changes to not overbuff it.

Thats what betas and feedback are for after all and videos i made are there as a proof that rev is far from being in a good state. Its also a reason why we getting Glint this week, they rush info about revenant more than anyone else as it needs a lot of work to make it fuctional but i see the potential here. I bet Glint will also end being subpar.

If we look at all the new shiny stuff -dragonhunter, reaper, tempest they all underperform with exception of chronomancer. I believe they trying too hard to not release something op. Thats said since last beta revenant got a lot better.

Can’t really disagree with anything said here. Just honestly don’t get the freakout over removing the energy cost when 0 energy cost vs. 5 might as well be the same thing. Even now the weapon skills pretty much generate their cost during the animation.

Vennyhedgie.5369:

Honestly I dont think removing the energy cost is a good idea. Having an energy cost means they can have impactful skills on shorter CDs (or they said something of the like in the first revenant reveal back when). I dont wanna be that guy but I think people are just plain outright playing Revenant wrong. I never had an issue with being out of energy for my weapon or heal skills. The ONLY time this has happened was right after using an upkeep skill (usually shiro’s, and honestly that skill’s energy drain needs to be toned down for what it does)

The problem is they said this yes ,but in reality our cds aren’t any lower then other classes when it comes to weapon skills and they still don’t do as much damage. Or have utility tied into them like Blinds, Evades, Etc.

Mournilg.4870:

Kidel.2057:

Legendswap is not meant as a solution (my god, that’s dense), it’s the main class mechanic. They made legendswap the only fast source of energy so that you use it when you can’t use weaponskills anymore (and that’s why weaponskills have energy cost).
Having you unable to use weaponskill is a punishment policy for having used too many skills and/or no legendswap.

I agree that skills need a reduced cost, but if you’re unable to use the class mechanic then it’s your fault.

If energy is so easy to manage that you can camp a legend without legendswapping then it means that you have 10 utility skills (double compared to other classes) and you’re NOT paying any drawback for tham.

I do not agree with your vision of legend swap as a mecanic.
Utilites are here to adapt to situations, that’s the point of utility skill. The legend swapping was at first a way to switch from, for exemple, full offense to full defense, be it dps offense, condi offense, tanky defense, or support defense DURING the fight, not ooc.
Any gardian would be glad to have a full self defense build + a full burst build during a fight, that’s the point of Revenant.

Strangely, you find it unfair to have 10 ws +10 utilities (20), when :
Elementalist has 20 + 5 skills (25),
Engineer has 5 ws + 5 utilities + 5 beltskills (15~20~25 with kits depending on how much are used.)

Weapons are a different part of the equation, don’t forget at first we had no weapon swapping, that was our main drawback. The added weapon swap made more mess than people seem to think.
Plus you are considering that weapon skills and utilities share the same goal when it’s certainly not the case.
They added weapon swap because they did a mistake making weapons double the role legends have. Weapons should have been swiss knives because of the no weapon swap, but they designed it differently, because it was more fun and created the lack of versatility problem.

This is honestly what I think when I think of the way the current Legends are. They are all for different things. If I’m doing power based damage ,but need energy to continue to do power based damage I really have to Legend Swap to a Legend geared for condi based damage just to get that energy back. Seems quite counter intuitive to me.

Seems to be they wanted to make Rev’s one of if not the most versatile classes in the game ,but in their attempt to keep us from being overpowered they couldn’t even make us viable.

Kidel.2057:

it’s not “my” vision.

Oh but it is.

Kidel.2057:

I agree, but that has nothing to do with skillspam and energy, it’s because we lack survivability skills and traits, and yeah, energy costs are too high.

I’m not saying we don’t need a higher skill throughput, because we do need it objectively. I’m saying that the core mechanic is fine and a cost reduction on skills will suffice.
They don’t need to change everything because a player refuses to legendswap.

Weapon skills at their current cost as I’ve said before don’t do much more than stall your current regeneration so my suggested change wouldn’t do much more then allowing maybe 1 more utility use per 30 seconds without changing the flow or feel of the class in the slightest as the skills are already tied to cd’s ,but I think I’ve spelled it out enough you won’t get it. Good day.

Kidel.2057:

Griffith.7238:

Kidel.2057:

If you want a class that is able to spam 10 diluted skills go ahead. I prefer a class that is a little bit hard to use, that forces you to make choice, but those choices are meaningful.

Yeah you know what else needs to happen in that scenario said high skill cap class actually needs to be rewarding. Why play a class that’s hard to play when played at its highest tier it only achieves mediocrity? Oh wait not even mediocrity the worst DPS out of every class.

Sure, and as I said before, if you want an easy class, maybe you shouldn’t bother with Revenant.
Revenant is supposed to be a nostalgia class for GW1 players. Sorry if it doesn’t suit you, and please avoid postspamming.

Oh I guess seeing my name as much as your own means you aren’t doing the same? That hypocrisy though. You must be amazing at w/e class it is you play since they are all spam heavy face rolls.

The class can perform in 1v1s most classes can ,but when the Rev starts to get pressured by more then one person all the energy in the world won’t save you his videos are proof of that.

Guess you didn’t watch his videos. Shy of a few 1v1’s most of which were just stalls he got obliterated in every teamfight the moment someone looked at him. I won’t blame that on his skill because I’ve seen the state of the class.

Oh you mean all the guys that said you just spam buttons to win in this game? Yeah I doubt they PvP

Kidel.2057:

If you want a class that is able to spam 10 diluted skills go ahead. I prefer a class that is a little bit hard to use, that forces you to make choice, but those choices are meaningful.

Yeah you know what else needs to happen in that scenario said high skill cap class actually needs to be rewarding. Why play a class that’s hard to play when played at its highest tier it only achieves mediocrity? Oh wait not even mediocrity the worst DPS out of every class.

Kidel.2057:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/revenant-the-master-of-the-mists/

Let’s start with the basics. A revenant can select from a pool of legends—epic characters from the past that you can invoke power from—and slot two different legends at a time. With this constant connection to the Mists, you’ll always have one active legend and one inactive legend. The current active legend will determine the skills on the right half of your skill bar. It’s similar to weapon swapping, but instead it affects your healing, utility, and elite skills. Not only will the legend you select determine your skills, but you’ll have an energy bar tied to your currently invoked legend.
This energy bar is a new resource that the revenant relies on in order to use skills. Some skills will have a low energy cost, allowing you to use them more often, while others have a large cost with a very large payoff. When you invoke a new legend, you’ll begin at half energy and generate more energy over time. This creates a push-and-pull feel with the energy that you manage as you use your skills.

by Roy Cronacher on February 18, 2015

Is that enough to convince you Griffith?

Where does he say that Legend Swapping is the primary source of energy regen? Don’t see it…

Timing is everything and just because weapon skills don’t cost a resource doesn’t change that the fact that you have to use them appropriately ,but I get it you guys are probably PvE players you probably play Hearthstone while you do your super hard zerg events in Dry Top.

Neeja.4579:

Kidel.2057:

If energy is so easy to manage that you can camp a legend without swapping then it means that you have 10 utility skills (double compared to other classes) and you’re NOT paying any drawback for tham.

I agree, the problem is that people like Griffith just want 10 skills to spam, they don’t care about having to learn a class. Trust ANet, they won’t listen to an evil Berserk character.

I like how you assume this when probably my most played class in this game is a Thief. Anyone that actually plays a Thief well knows spamming anything at all is the worst way to play. Heartseeker spam hasn’t been a thing for a very very long time. I play the only class right now that truly has to manage a resource and you’re trying to tell me I want 10 skills to spam. Really? It’s honestly pretty funny that you even sum up any class in this game to just spamming skills. Even a Warrior while I admit is pretty easy to play still requires you to use skills at the right time you don’t just go 1,2,3,4,5 weapon swap repeat that’s not how you play this game on any class I’ve played.

Kidel.2057:

Legendswap is not meant as a solution (my god, that’s dense), it’s the main class mechanic. They made legendswap the only fast source of energy so that you use it when you can’t use weaponskills anymore (and that’s why weaponskills have energy cost).
Having you unable to use weaponskill is a punishment policy for having used too many skills and/or no legendswap.

I agree that skills need a reduced cost, but if you’re unable to use the class mechanic then it’s your fault.

If energy is so easy to manage that you can camp a legend without legendswapping then it means that you have 10 utility skills (double compared to other classes) and you’re NOT paying any drawback for tham.

If they intended for Legend Swapping to be the main source of energy regen then why did they make every Legend act as a stand alone and cater to completely different playstyles? You really think people doing speed clears in dungeons are going to be Legend Swapping? No they aren’t. They are simply going to combine the highest DPS weapon with the highest DPS Legend and sit in it. Why switch to Jalis, Mallyx, or Ventari when it would be a DPS loss? 50 Energy for a Legend that you lose DPS on for 5 sec. Most of your damage comes from WS anyway which do cost energy ,but generally such a small amount that they don’t do much more then pause your current regeneration so you won’t need to swap to use them.

How do they have no cooldown again? You can use them whenever you want on demand with no cost back to back all the time? That’s not the class I played.

I’m pretty sure I know what I want not you so don’t speak for me. I also never advocated for 100 energy on swap or base line it was simply a suggestion as to something they could do to improve the current state of things it is not something I wanted personally ,but merely a suggestion.

Loex.5104:

Griffith.7238:

I love the exaggerated 5 Phase Traversals and 2 Jade Winds in row you guys really pull this kitten out of your kitten haha. It’s possible to do that now removing energy from weapon skills isn’t going to make it more possible. Rev’s as they are now can’t survive long enough without using a utility to pool 100 energy unless they are being completely ignored in which case the Rev in its current state could do these things just as easily. You guys crack me up.

… you don’t see the difference between nuking the kitten out of your utillities and beeing unable to do anything after that and nuking the kitten out of your utillities and beeing still able to run your whole rotation without thinking 1 second about it?

so actually you want a warrior with 2 util bars and no cooldown on utils ..

No what I want is a class that is afforded the same luxury as every other class in GW2. I don’t want to have to choose between damage and utility because no one else has to. In case you weren’t aware every single Rev ability has a built in cooldown ….. its called E N E R G Y. "Look guys there is no countdown on this ability it mean I can use it infinitely!!!! ". What a joke.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

The high demand in utilities energy means majority of scenarios you’ll use 1 utility with 2-3 weapon skills then you’re left with no energy for utility in the next >5s (depending on your energy) or swap legend, but press F1 early can can mean death if your alternative legend has no stun break or condi removal/resistance etc. This makes revenant both very vulnerable and offensive-less against opponent who can sustain well, which just so happen to be majority of PvP metas.

This right here!!! I don’t get how people don’t understand this. Just swapping to another Legend when you need energy is no solution if you need that energy for abilities provided by the Legend you just switched from how many times do I have to say it. I love all the people that speak for the devs like they know their exact design behind Legend Swapping. "Oh they totally wanted us to have to Legend Swap on cooldown guys. " how the hell do you know what they wanted? It is just as possible that they just wanted our class to be versatile and not switch at all unless circumstances arose during a fight that caused us to need a skill set focused on something else ex. I’m doing a 1v1 with Shiro and opponents teammate shows up guess I should switch to Jalis and bunker up a bit. Some of you people just straight make stuff up and its clear you want a class catered to you and not what would actually improve the class.

I love the exaggerated 5 Phase Traversals and 2 Jade Winds in row you guys really pull this kitten out of your kitten haha. It’s possible to do that now removing energy from weapon skills isn’t going to make it more possible. Rev’s as they are now can’t survive long enough without using a utility to pool 100 energy unless they are being completely ignored in which case the Rev in its current state could do these things just as easily. You guys crack me up.

Teutos.8620:

My suggestion: Remove the energy cost from the weapon skills.

I think this would be the easiest fix to implement and would bring the class up quite a bit from where it is now. With weaponskills costing no energy you are going to get off like 1-2 utilities before burning through energy forcing a swap where you can then burn 1-2 more before swapping again. This doesn’t address the abysmal state that most of the abilities are in ,but it will at the very least allow us to use them at a decent rate. This would also allow us to do more then just auto attack during Upkeeps (which I’m sure most of us agree at this point are quite weak). This change doesn’t ruin the classes individuality as some may think (I’m looking at you Kidel). You will still be forced to pay attention to your energy and use your utilities wisely as well as legend swap practically on cooldown. This change will however give us a little extra energy to work with so that maybe we can use utilities when we need them instead of having to swap just to gain energy while at the same time baring access to the utility we wanted to use for 5 sec.

Kidel.2057:

Jalis is supposed to be our tanking legend, but the only good thing about that legend is the healing skill (and the bugged upkeep, that is offensive-midrange, providing no active defense at all). The taunt has a HUGE energy cost (seriously, the same as Jade Winds).

So yeah, Jalis needs an upgrade.

Don’t forget the ulty that takes so long to get off that the enemy team should /forfeit if they let you do so.

Kidel.2057:

Every other class has cd on utility skills. We don’t.
You can’t compare the 2 mechanics but only the throughput, that I agree is a bit low on utility. Now the solution is lowering cost on some utility or on some weaponskills so you overall do more utility and less autoattack.

The fact that you don’t legend swap is your problem. If they make the came easy for you without legendswap, then people who already legendswap are going to be OP.

First off just because we don’t have a countdown on our utility skills doesn’t mean they lack a cooldown there is still very much a downtime. You can’t just spam jade winds infinitely or any of our utilities for that matter. I’m also pretty sure I never said that I didn’t Legend swap just simply that spamming legend swap on cd is not the solution to the Revs energy problems.

Kidel.2057:

I told you there are melee spots, but I need to move to them. It’s fine, I did that, but while also doing damage with hammer.
By the time I was in melee range I swapped again to sword for max damage.

There is a huge difference between “ok” and “best”.

EDIT: and as I added in the previous edit, the first time I did that event she was stending surrounded by fire, so no melee possible. It can happen it seems. What am I supposed to do? Wait?

And yeah, wyvern is easy btw, not going to argue here. Went down in 2 minutes, but that’s just an example. There will be stronger wyverns standing in the fire a lot. There even is a hero challenge one that you have to take 1vs1 most of the time and that’s pretty hard to solo. Being able to kite on that challenge is very useful, expecially with energy regeneration in play.
There is also an event with many champions standing in wyvern fire, on a bridge. You can’t simply go melee there unless you happened to be on the other side before. I can go on all day providing examples where being able to swap range really helps your dps.

I know you’re ok with weaponswap now, don’t worry.
I’m just having an opinion exchange here.

Some people just couldn’t find logic if it was taped to their forehead. I would just give up. I mean its clear at this point that weapon swapping was an improvement I mean isn’t that why we play GW2 and not the other garbage MMOs on the market because we like to play classes that aren’t 100% defined by their attack range. I for one thing that pure Melee or pure Ranged is a dead mechanic and while some may enjoy it it should not be their sole option.

Every other class gets to use their utility the moment they need it without having to sacrifice damage why on earth should Revs be denied that luxury.

Like I get where you guys are coming from ,but it just doesn’t matter you need things when you need them plain and simple. If I need Shiro for some mobility ,but I’m out of energy switching to Jalis gives me energy while taking away my access to mobility it does nothing for me. There are plenty of situations where Legend Swapping is huge ,but there are just as many situations where it is useless.

The problem is the rate at which condi’s are reapplied. Legend swap is on a 5 sec cooldown and without access to resistance 5 sec is more then enough time to get overwhelmed by condi’s especially now have you seen the freaking burning tics these days. Most condi builds don’t work like power builds where you are limited to burst windows when your main power/powers comes off cd most condi builds are just constantly applying stuff to you with no relent.

Kidel.2057:

Griffith.7238:

Kidel.2057:

Some weapon skills really require energy cost or at least a longer cd, and I’d take energy cost all the time (so I can have them ready more often when I need them, trading some utility for that).

That’s all fine and dandy ,but with energy regen/costs in it’s current state you aren’t going to have anything ready when you need it unless you spend most of your time just auto attacking.

That’s not true, you just need to legendswap a lot.
And if we don’t take the bug into account, Jalis upkeep does almost the same damage (if not more) then Impossible Odds. So swapping legend is not a big deal, and it gives A LOT of energy right away.

Some skills need a reduced energy cost, it’s true, but energy cost on weaponskill is there so that you remember to legendswap. You have to do it, it’s the class mechanic, they want you to do it, otherwise why do you get 50 energy from it?

I don’t really see energy as a big issue. It’s an issue, just not as big as many say. “I can’t do skills” oh come on, of course you can. “If I use elite and healing I can’t use weaponskills” oh yes you can. Spam all the utility skills you can then legendswap. It’s not like you do less damage with a different legend. Every offensive upkeep is amazing.

If I am in a 1v1 fight with a condi based opponent in SPvP it would be counter beneficial for me to switch out of Mallyx in pretty much every way. While I do believe that the Legends compliment many of the Rev’s weapons they do not however compliment each other in pretty much anyway. Each Legend is geared towards a particular thing and meant to add versatility where it is needed. Versatility is not always needed sometimes I need to abilities in Shiro not the ones in Jalis so having to switch to regain energy does me no good if I needed the energy for say a stun break from Shiro.

Loex.5104:

Griffith.7238:

The Revenant could never be as faceroll as a Warrior because at the end of the day the Warrior does not have to manage a resource at all. We would still need to manage energy yet we would actually have some of it to manage unlike now where we get to use 1 utility a fight if we still want to do some damage.

so we’re just talking about numbers again … nothing but numbers and i dont know how you played but i was able to perform my DPS and still have energy to use utilities if i needed them

Dont forget you have your utils there all the time – and not like other classes all time use in X – Y Seconds

Griffith.7238:

“their use is to create a huge benefit for a short time period. " Oh really I was unaware that Vengeful Hammers provided a “huge” benefit over a short period of time.

don’t bring Jalis into that – we all know that the whole legend is not round atm. If VH would block projectiles or give protection or whatever we would have a huge benefit.

IO as well as Ventari Shield as well as Mallyx Elite ARE pretty strong and huge benefits – also keep in mind that they have no CD (ventari shield has – nobody knows why) and can be used on demand exactly when you need them and are not there for X seconds and are then on CD forever.

Griffith.7238:

Oh and shorter cooldowns like what?! A Medi DPS Guard’s entire GS combo is on a shorter cd then Rev’s.

4;10;15;20 vs 10:15:20:30 – even traited is your argument invalid. – and to be fair you should compare the same skill types (20s for a pull interrupt as well as 15 on a 2s block is just nice)

And skills like Duelist’s Preparation and Unrelenting Assault have animations that are long enough to regain the used energy.

Griffith.7238:

The very word UPKEEP destroys your logic if they weren’t meant to be used over a long period then they should of just called them “toggle on then immediately toggle back off” gg….

you can, if you want to – or you can learn the class and use IO in situations where you benefit the most. (Hammer 5 ; Sword 3; …)
jeez IO is haste on demand – you really think this is intended to be hold up forever while spamming your Weapon Rota??

Again we can talk about numbers – i dont see a reason why for example IO should have initial energy cost / and why the ventari shield should have kitten cd but its fact that the energy cost on weapons is needed as energy drain otherwise the whole mechanic would be stupid “hey i have all my stuff on demand and dont need to waste time in thinking when and what to use and im so bored that i now nuke out impossible odds”

Griffith.7238:

That’s all fine and dandy ,but with energy regen/costs in it’s current state you aren’t going to have anything ready when you need it unless you spend most of your time just auto attacking.

im not sure if we played the same class …

I was more referring to the abilities that do damage on the Guard’s GS aka Whirling Wrath and Symbol of Wrath both of which have lower cds then Rev Swords primary damage output abilities.

IO is the only Upkeep that I agree would be a little insane to have 100% uptime.

I don’t really know which aspect of the game you are referring to PvE or PvP ,but since you could literally cast Frigid Blitz and Unrelenting Assault and kill just about every non vet mob in Verdant Brink I figured it was clear that I wasn’t referring to PvE. Clearly you wouldn’t have to worry about running out of energy in a fight that doesn’t last but maybe 2 abilities.