Guild Wars 2

Knighthonor.4061:

So Rev get less base skills than other classes, and the dull Elite Spec to go with it, buts its all optional, so no big deal.

am I getting this right?

“Dull” is opinionated. I happen to think the Elite spec is awesome. I also happen to think you are looking at the class as a somewhat passive class when in reality all the skills have awesome looking and functioning actives. How you could say knocking back opponents with massive dragon wings and giving everyone superspeed is “Dull”.

The Enrage timer is there to make sure that you bring some damage. Without the Enrage timer you could cheese every fight with 10 support players. Now we don’t know yet what mechanics these bosses are going to have ,but the said mechanics should be what force you to not bring all damage. So look at it this way Enrage timer = need for damage, Mechanics = need for everything else. As long as ANet has mechanics that require say a tanky person or a “healer” of sorts then we will see great diversity in raid builds. They have already said in an interview that their will be fights where you need a tanky person to absorb some damage for the rest of the party so it seems they are on this track.

Does this guy understand that you can’t even do the raids mastery or not without the expansion? It’s not like they are opening up the raids to core players ,but locking the masteries behind a paywall. You can’t do either without the expansion.

Chameleon Dude.1564:

In the same situation as OP – I’ve hated raids in almost every game for this very reason. I’m locked out of a large part of the content and rewards because I like to play with my friends, for fun. Larger guilds are an uncomfortable environment for me; a raiding group just becomes a job and randoms either try to lick the AoE circles or spout annoying stuff in the chat (my experiences from trying to do larger group content in other games over the years).

Now both of my favourite games have introduced raids, I might have to go outside.

You guys are being silly. 10 People is not a “Large” amount of people. 20-25+ is a Large amount of people. As for the OP if you have 5-6 people on regularly you are more then halfway to that 10. PuG 4 more require that they have TS so you can at least communicate with them and bam you are in a raid. Get social its an MMO that’s what it is all about.

Torolan.5816:

My serious hope is that I can make it through quickly as I dislike jumping, mazes and djungles and would have hoped for another scenario.
I also want to see the story progress, despite the crappy ls2 performance.

My not so serious hope is that the raid is supereasy and the raid people finally get what they asked for, but it still amounted to nothing. That would be funny!^^

Really? How nice of you.

I don’t understand the complaint here. They are not doing anything that every other game doesn’t already do. You are paying $50 dollar for what is essentially a “Season Pass” in any other game such as CoD which usually goes for the same amount. With said season pass you get pretty much no DLC at the beginning ,but get it as it comes out. HoT is the exact same you are paying $50 getting those 4 maps, new class etc. and then any more content they release after that for that price. Nothing new here at all.

Kidel.2057:

JVJD.4912:

Kormeg.2469:

Kidel.2057:

How do you call something that does cc to not take damage?
How do you call something that does cc to drain break bars and doesn’t take lethal damage meanwhile?

I call both forms of tanking.

And that’s just your definition.

Mine says that a tank is someone that forces enemies to attack them instead of their teammates, so said mates can focus on dps.

And I dont see that happening.

The only way you could bring a tank in to the game is if the boss’s basic attack’s one shot’s a zerker with a protection buff, but in doing so you will also create a need for a healer and we then say welcome to the trinity

In one of the previous POI colin said he’s not against the trinity, but against specific roles for specific classes

^This. There is nothing AT ALL wrong with the Trinity. The problem is when each class can only perform 1 role and then some classes perform that 1 role better then others which makes every other class that is locked into that one role useless. This is not an issue in GW2. Most classes can perform multiple roles and do them well. Sure some still need some work ,but the basis is there. We just need content that requires tankier built players and players built 100% around group support (This means Healing Power).

Harper.4173:

Demented Yak.6105:

I think some of you are getting confused. They said 2 people should try to control the boss so that the rest of your team mates can clear a path to the edge of the platform so that EVERYONE can glide away and then dive-bomb.

The point of a tank is to try to hold aggro and remain alive. Whether or not you remain alive through CC, healing, kiting, dodging, invulnerability, negative damage modifiers or blocks doesn’t really matter. Just hold aggro and stay alive.

I’m sure a a few people on any team will still be able to run full zerk. It just won’t be optimal all the time for everyone. We don’t want to completely destroy the need for any zerk builds. We just can’t have every single person running it.

Enrif – Your solutions are utterly insane.

So you speculate that these people will be unable to stay on the boss in zerker gear – which if true means the boss is very hard and I would speculate the majority of GW2’s player base won’t be able to engage it even in PVT with any margin of success.

I’m pretty sure the best players in the game will be able to run these raids in full damage gear – and that most others will need more tank and heals thrown in there.

To make the damage unmitigateable to the point where people that are really high-end and skilled players need tankier gear is to make content that most players won’t touch let alone succeed.

Just because you have damage that can’t be mitigated doesn’t mean you are forced to pick up a tankier gear set. What this would do however is make having actual Supports in the group beneficial and needed. These are what are called options. Either the whole group gets tankier gear to self sustain or you lose the DPS of 1 or 2 memebers who switch to support to allow other members to go full damage. If this content doesn’t have even this level of strategy its going to be awful. Rev Ventari has an insane amount of group healing if the raids don’t take advantage of this Legend or other support built classes I will be severely disappointed.

NapTooN.6283:

Glint/Herald is Support, so it can not be in your Power DPS Build.

Glint is actually really good for Power builds.

1. 100% Fury uptime
2. Might application
3. Low CD 20 Vuln stack burst ability
4. Heal skill with highest potential healing of all the Rev’s heal skills
5. High damage AOE Elite with knockback.
6. Blind
7. Stun Break

Glint is definitely not just Support. Can you imagine 100% crit chance with Facet of Darkness with Burst of Strength into a recently buffed UA. That’s huge damage.

NapTooN.6283:

Griffith.7238:

I think everyone is looking at this from the wrong perspective. I have no problem with the Rev having weaknesses ,but when you think about the current classes and meta game there is a lot of cause for concern. I believe as a Rev we already have a “decent” amount of Condi cleanse ,but it pales in comparison to what most of the other classes get. This is a HUGE cause for concern because Conditions are very strong in the current PvP Meta. So allow me to spell this out for you all. What that means is that if classes like Ele, Guard, Warrior have such amazing Condi cleanse yet Condi builds are still incredibly strong then said Condi cleanse only serves to put them on even standing with the meta and anything less then what they offer will be completely destroyed. I very well plan to run Staff and I’d rather not always have to use Mallyx there are other Legend combos I would like to try. With that said if the classes mentioned above can still die to a Condi build with that insane amount of cleanse what do you expect to happen to the Revenant? We would have to setup our entire builds around Condi cleanse which would severely nerf Rev build diversity/viability.

I’m still anxious to see how the class performs with its recent buffs in the next BWE. It may not need more Condi cleanse ,but I’d really rather not have a particular Legend (Mallyx) be an absolute must for PvP. Most other classes are limited to 1-2 Meta builds so it wouldn’t be unfair if it was a choice that had to be made ,but I’d just prefer it not to be (and with the amount of Condi cleanse on most other classes it most definitely will be if we want to compete).

How is taking a few Utility Skills and Traits for Condi Removal less of a must for a Condi PvP Meta than taking a certain Legend?

A Legend makes 50% of Revenants Utility Skills. If we leave out Elites, that translates to 2 Utilities or 1 Utility + Heal with Condi Cleanse on other Professions to reach the 50%. They are in the same boat as we are, they just have more interchangeable choices.

But that is the Price you pay if you select the Revenant. If you want Support/Condi Removal, better take Ventari and not expect your DPS Legend to remove Conditions from you. That is the same like a Thief asking for Venoms to remove Conditions. Venoms are not made for Condition Removal, neither is Shiro, you people should get your head around that fact.

Ok guess you didn’t read my whole post ,but it doesn’t surprise me. Allow me to repeat what you clearly missed. “Most other classes are limited to 1-2 Meta builds so it -wouldn’t be unfair if it was a choice that had to be made ,but I’d just prefer it not to be.” I am very aware that it’s not any different from other classes that are pigeon holed into specific Utility selections to remain viable. Just in their case they have a little more custom-ability with their Utilities as they don’t have to pick them in sets. I also understand this is the trade-off presented to the Rev. More active Utilities for less customization in said Utilities.

Next time read my whole post before assuming MY stance on something and stop putting words in my mouth you clearly have no clue what I’m trying to say.

I think everyone is looking at this from the wrong perspective. I have no problem with the Rev having weaknesses ,but when you think about the current classes and meta game there is a lot of cause for concern. I believe as a Rev we already have a “decent” amount of Condi cleanse ,but it pales in comparison to what most of the other classes get. This is a HUGE cause for concern because Conditions are very strong in the current PvP Meta. So allow me to spell this out for you all. What that means is that if classes like Ele, Guard, Warrior have such amazing Condi cleanse yet Condi builds are still incredibly strong then said Condi cleanse only serves to put them on even standing with the meta and anything less then what they offer will be completely destroyed. I very well plan to run Staff and I’d rather not always have to use Mallyx there are other Legend combos I would like to try. With that said if the classes mentioned above can still die to a Condi build with that insane amount of cleanse what do you expect to happen to the Revenant? We would have to setup our entire builds around Condi cleanse which would severely nerf Rev build diversity/viability.

I’m still anxious to see how the class performs with its recent buffs in the next BWE. It may not need more Condi cleanse ,but I’d really rather not have a particular Legend (Mallyx) be an absolute must for PvP. Most other classes are limited to 1-2 Meta builds so it wouldn’t be unfair if it was a choice that had to be made ,but I’d just prefer it not to be (and with the amount of Condi cleanse on most other classes it most definitely will be if we want to compete).

Tim.6450:

Griffith.7238:

This trait is a little something called Fire and Forget. DoTs just like Pets can be put on or assigned to a particular target and once that is done you can now play the run around and avoid death while your damage that requires no further input from you kills your target. People using Power based builds do not have this luxury. They are forced to constantly sacrifice active defense (with the exception of evade skills such as UA or Staff 5) in order to partake in active offense which can be completely negated by a dodge.

If there is anything fire and forget it is power. You just hit a foe and the damage is done, no buts no iffs. When you apply conditions you have to make sure they keep ticking and are not cleansed by a foe. The ticks you see are remnannts from previous hits, if you were fighting a power build you would be already dead.

Also power builds actually do use plenty of active defense just take to the utilities of a d/p thief or a gs/hammer warrior.

It’s extremely easy to avoid Power based damage. Lets talk about the Thief since you mentioned it. You want to talk about fire and forget yet the Thief is the exact opposite. If a Thief does not time their ability usage perfectly they will find themselves having used all their initiative with little to no result. Where as your average Condi build can just auto to apply tons of Condis or use very low cd abilities.

I will give you Aegis because some of it is applied passively ,but Blinds are very much active defense. You need to actively use a skill to apply that Blind you don’t just Blind your targets by just standing there.

This thread isn’t quite going in the direction I had hoped. I did not make this thread to talk about Rev’s supposed weakness to Conditions (there are plenty of threads about that) ,but to talk about the general balance between Condition builds and Power builds and how there is little room for skill in overcoming Condition built opponents.

DoT based builds are generally pretty OP in most MMO’s. They share a similar trait to Pet builds such as BM Hunter in WoW. This trait is a little something called Fire and Forget. DoTs just like Pets can be put on or assigned to a particular target and once that is done you can now play the run around and avoid death while your damage that requires no further input from you kills your target. People using Power based builds do not have this luxury. They are forced to constantly sacrifice active defense (with the exception of evade skills such as UA or Staff 5) in order to partake in active offense which can be completely negated by a dodge.

So the real question here is what can be done about this apparent imbalance between the two build types? If nothing changes (and it most likely won’t) what tools do Rev’s currently have that can help them deal with this Fire and Forget playstyle (specifics please)?

So I was just thinking today about Roy’s comment about Rev’s being weak to conditions outside of Mallyx which I previously really had no issue with until I came to this particular understanding of how Conditions work vs. Power based attacks.

The understanding I came to is that the only real way to overcome a build focusing on Conditions is to remove them which varies greatly from the MANY ways to deal with Power based attacks/builds. Allow me to explain. If you are fighting a Power based opponent and that happens to be your counter (not even sure if any particular class/build is even countered by such a thing due to the mechanics I’m about to list) there are a multitude of ways in which to avoid taking that damage and skillfully defeat said opponent. The biggest and most obvious of mechanics is to dodge. Any experienced player can quickly recognize when a particular class is going to use his biggest attack and dodge it negating 100% of the damage. Should you be out of endurance you could always turn to the plethora of skills that evade or provide blind, aegis, protection, etc. depending on your class. Now some people will argue that you can also use these mechanics to avoid Condition applying abilities ,but when you think about it can you really?

In my experience with Condi builds it doesn’t seem as if they are really hindered with long cooldowns or spiky application of Conditions like Power based builds are. You could pop UA to avoid having any Condis applied to you for its duration only to come out of the evade and be immediately riddled with Conditions. This makes using skill to deal with a Condition built opponent a complete non factor and making Condi removal the only viable way to beat said opponent. Where as vs Power based opponents you can use skill to great effect to avoid the majority of their damage and punish them.

If I am wrong please enlighten me ,but I don’t think I am. Condi application for the classes that do it well is practically unrelenting. This makes Conditions the go to source of damage for PvP and if I’m not mistaken why it’s been more prevalent in the meta for awhile now.

quaniesan.8497:

Each hit is independent of the previous hit and doesn’t need the previous hit to connect in order to initiate. Not sure why there is impression that the next hit requires the previous one to actually successfully hit someone. Just try 2 mesmers do sword 2 at each other and see if they both stop mid-skill just because they all fail to hit one another.

While you are correct I noticed several bugs during the first BWE where the skill would just drop me out of the animation for no reason what so ever. People probably thought that it was because the skill was evaded or something ,but that’s not the case it just messes up from time to time.

So only use it if your enemies have a wall to their backs … tactics. If you want the boon but not the active then legendswap out of the Upkeep.

Kidel.2057:

Knighthonor.4061:

Well are people forgetting that the Thief in GW2 is modeled theme-wise to the Assassin of GW1, which the Rev Assassin is built to mimic?

So of course they are similar.

except they’re not. There is no single Shiro skill that resembles any thief skill.

Really Kidel? Really?

+1 to this. Excellent idea.

Guys you can clearly see from the POI where roy went over the Glint skills that he is getting all the Facet’s associated buffs when he activates them.

Zenith.7301:

Griffith.7238:

Zenith.7301:

My problem isn’t with the legends, it’s with their really lackluster traitlines of salvation/retribution.

There’s nothing remotely useful in those traitlines for PvE. Making Salvation healing power centric, especially a non-optional minor is going to kill that traitline in PvE as healing power is a garbage stat that costs too much offensive potential in the stat budget.

Nobody will ever take healing power into PvE, and as a result nobody will ever use Ventari’s traitline.

Same goes for the staff, it’s gonna be like the guardian’s staff in PvE. It will only be good in pvp if it keeps that terrible autoattack damage and meager healing.

If the challenging group content is actually “challenging” we might see a complete change of the meta.

Not really.

It will never be worth it to have healing power centric build. You do less than one third of the damage for a small benefit to infrquent heals, it’s never worth it. The boost from healing power stacking doesn’t even outheal a single autoattack from a mob.

Most of your healing actually comes from blasting water fields multiple times, which can easily be done by zerkers, and the most effective mitigation methods — blind, aegis, blocks/invulnerability, and protection are also usable by zerkers.

At best you might see a move to rabid condi builds if some extra toughness is necessary, but Clerict/PVT/Shaman builds will never be a thing under their current combat system.

Healing Power is a terrible stat that should be merged with vitality, or make it so you merge vitality with boon duration and healing power with toughness.

With the +Outgoing Healing that Rev’s get in the Salvation line I could see healing power being very beneficial if the need for having an actual healer in future content arises. I will say it again this time more thoroughly. If you haven’t noticed yet I’m sure you will by the end of this week when they release the Warrior Berserker spec. A lot of the Elite specs have been centered around support and even tank esque play sytles. They have now added taunt into the game. Revs got one and Warriors will be getting an AoE one if the data mined skills were accurate. We could see a complete turn around of difficulty in PvE content with HoT. We might even be forced to bring dedicated “healers” and tank built classes with taunt on hand. Bringing 5 zerkers to a PvE dungeon group could end up being a thing of the past. You are welcome to your doubts I share them ,but if the kits they are handing out to the elite specs are any indication we are going to see a major change in group PvE content. We are also only about a week away from hearing about it.

Zenith.7301:

My problem isn’t with the legends, it’s with their really lackluster traitlines of salvation/retribution.

There’s nothing remotely useful in those traitlines for PvE. Making Salvation healing power centric, especially a non-optional minor is going to kill that traitline in PvE as healing power is a garbage stat that costs too much offensive potential in the stat budget.

Nobody will ever take healing power into PvE, and as a result nobody will ever use Ventari’s traitline.

Same goes for the staff, it’s gonna be like the guardian’s staff in PvE. It will only be good in pvp if it keeps that terrible autoattack damage and meager healing.

If the challenging group content is actually “challenging” we might see a complete change of the meta.

Sylent.3165:

I noticed under every description for the facets it does state “grant nearby allies boon every few seconds.”

It does apply to me too right????

Yes.

Kodiak.3281:

Again it all comes down to design for anything. There are plenty of gaps in each class, even Elementalist. Everything however has to be taken into consideration, and it wasn’t. The whole thing feels fairly rushed in fact and really makes me wonder how far along they were with the other version (sword) before they switched and whether or not it woulda been better if they just made sword into Axe instead and kept going with their original plan.

Regardless…the Tempest situation just makes you appreciate the current Glint design. Even if the numbers don’t work out on Auras to be as good, it’s at least a different role that we didn’t have before and that’s what Specializations are all about.

Roy’s our boy

I mean what exactly would you have liked to see from the Ele Elite Spec? A Greatsword melee like the Necro? A Condi or Power bow? I mean what could they have added that offered a different playstyle to the Ele. A straight up melee build like the Necro is the only thing I could think of that they lack. The have great damage builds both Condi and Power and they are one of the best Healing and Support classes in the game. They can also be excellent bruisers. The argument that they are “already really good” is valid because they are so well rounded that even the devs couldn’t find a gap to fill with their Elite Spec. The Rev was designed with the knowledge of receiving an Elite Spec and honestly it doesn’t seem like a complete class without it. The Guardian has had the worst ranged options of any class in the game since launch and finally got something halfway decent. So you tell me what is worse. Having those 2 classes (who essentially crutch on those Elite Specs to provide them with essential things they lack) not be functional minus their Elite Spec or have Ele’s Elite Spec fail to add something new to their already perfect kit?

Killyox.3950:

OneKlicKill.4285:

Have you seen the ele forums today? You guys were blessed by the 6, the pale tree, supported by the char legions, gifted the patents of the asura, and declared legends by the norn.

No we weren’t. You compare # of changes for a new class to already established class. Also as far as Tempest goes you were already told that there are more changes planned but they didn’t just get all of them yet. You got that said by dev in your very own thread.

Also this thread is not about elementalists. You have specific forum for that :P

I know right? At least they can play their class. “Rev is getting so much freakin attention what about my perfectly functional and complete class?!?!”. lol

Hooglese.4860:

So the consensus is Lyssa or nothing?

No not at all. There are several options.

Khenzy.9348:

Griffith.7238:

OneKlicKill.4285:

Sylent.3165:

OneKlicKill.4285:

Have you seen the ele forums today? You guys were blessed by the 6, the pale tree, supported by the char legions, gifted the patents of the asura, and declared legends by the norn.

Truthfully the ele forum made me kinda sick. Elementalist in my opinion was already one of the strongest classes in game that could do more then any other class already. Yet people are in an uproar because now was added to the class. I personally enjoyed it in beta.

The tempest mechanics are trash though, mechanically they are bad, as a trait line they are bad, what the spec brings to the table is nothing we couldn’t do. the elite is god tier bad.

The devs took no input from weeks of feedback and an overwhelming amount of suggestions and improvements/alteration ideas of improving the tempest, all aspects.

Its appalling that they can disregard an entire community like that, its no wonder everyone hates the devs over there, I completely support them in that.

Yes but how were they suppose to give you something you couldn’t already do when Ele’s can already do everything? All jokes aside I agree it’s not right for the devs to treat any class that way ,but Ele’s also don’t have any room to complain. That class has been a must have class for every mode of the game since well forever.

I keep hearing/reading this stupid argument (hyperbolic at that) again and again, but the thing is that the core Ele specs being good do not serve as justification for the tempest to be incredibly underwhelming in its current iteration.

Oh well look who it is … lol

I never said it was justified just that there are other classes in the game that have more to complain about. Even if Tempest ends up not being good (which I highly doubt it will) Eles always have their base class to fall back on. The same cannot be said for a few of the other classes.

Yes you could literally just double tap Facet of Chaos to get the Lyssa proc at essentially 0 energy and almost the same effect with Mallyx.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

Demented Yak.6105:

I think you should really replace one of those trait lines with Corruption. You have literally no counter to conditions other than Pain Absorption and extra resistence would go a long way. If you replaced hammer with mace/axe and the retribution traits with corruption, you’d ultimately gain more survivability and damage.

Alternatively, you could replace Mallyx with Jalis. Then you keep all your trait lines and hammer, gain a little bit of condition removal. Replace sigil of air with sigil of generosity. Jalis might not fit your theme of vampirism but Vengeful hammers sort of ‘Siphons’ health now and you’ve also got Rite of the Great Dwarf for survivability.

You could also add in Sigil of Leeching on your second weapon.

Agreed. Either go with Corruption or lose Mallyx entirely. If this were PvP, Rune of Scavenging would also be viable. Just curious, has anyone tried to swap weapons while Field of the Mists is up? Because, wow, with the attack speed of mace and sword, that would be fanastic for the vampire theme.

Not entirely sure what you are suggesting here. Field of The Mists is a “Dark” Field and requires a “Projectile” Finisher in order to steal life. Neither Mace or Sword provide such a Finisher as they are not ranged weapons but melee.

On a side note if you want an amazing combo use Field of The Mists then toggle on IO with Hammer AA to steal a ton of life very fast.

Kidel.2057:

do you realize that 2 auto attacks and 1 weapon are not the same as 2 full weapon sets, right?
Excluding autoattacks, your solution has 3 weaponskills, while currently we have 8.

People are asking for more customization, even extra utility skills, and you want to get rid of 5 swappable skills?

Having a sword with 2 autoattack is way worse then having sword+staff with weaponswap. You basically get a free utility skill to heal/condicleanse. And that’s just 1 example. The difference between hammer and sword is not just the range.
I’d never trade hammer+sword for an hammer with 2 autoattacks.

Honestly I don’t even know why they simply didn’t use trident+spear for 2 sets, maybe because it’s faster to develop like that (and who cares, it’s underwater)

I’m not really sure I would enjoy not having weapon swap at this point ,but there is another option that I think was already brought up that would be pretty awesome. Basically when you hit the weapon swap button instead of actually switching weapons it would give you 5 different skills for the same weapon 1 set would be melee the other ranged. So not quite like the way the spear works as it’s giving you 2 completely different loadouts for the same weapon vs. just having 2 autos. So for those LoL players it’s kinda like Elise and Nidalee where they have 2 forms and 3 completely separate abilities for each form.

It’s far far too late to do anything like this at this stage in the classes development ,but I think that would have been an awesome idea. There are issues with the idea of course such as finding a way to make various weapons make sense in both melee and ranged ex. ranged sword, staff, mace. They did make it work with Hammer though rather surprisingly and I think it would be pretty awesome to start ranged with the Hammer and then when things got close switch it over to a melee version of the Hammer and start pounding faces. Kinda like Jayce =P.

OneKlicKill.4285:

Sylent.3165:

OneKlicKill.4285:

Have you seen the ele forums today? You guys were blessed by the 6, the pale tree, supported by the char legions, gifted the patents of the asura, and declared legends by the norn.

Truthfully the ele forum made me kinda sick. Elementalist in my opinion was already one of the strongest classes in game that could do more then any other class already. Yet people are in an uproar because now was added to the class. I personally enjoyed it in beta.

The tempest mechanics are trash though, mechanically they are bad, as a trait line they are bad, what the spec brings to the table is nothing we couldn’t do. the elite is god tier bad.

The devs took no input from weeks of feedback and an overwhelming amount of suggestions and improvements/alteration ideas of improving the tempest, all aspects.

Its appalling that they can disregard an entire community like that, its no wonder everyone hates the devs over there, I completely support them in that.

Yes but how were they suppose to give you something you couldn’t already do when Ele’s can already do everything? All jokes aside I agree it’s not right for the devs to treat any class that way ,but Ele’s also don’t have any room to complain. That class has been a must have class for every mode of the game since well forever.

Wow … just wow

uhohhotdog.3598:

Griffith.7238:

uhohhotdog.3598:

Griffith.7238:

uhohhotdog.3598:

Griffith.7238:

I’m also more into PvP and I think the energy system is fine as is. With that said I would still like to see energy costs removed from weapon skills and maybe some more active regen built into the class as I think that would be better for the overall feel and flow of the class ,but that is just a personal opinion. Regardless of if the energy system stays how it is right now or not I will still play the class with a smile on my face. I’ve seen many videos from players that prove that the Rev can work in it’s current state and that was pre buffs following the most recent BWE. Sure all videos are taken out of context ,but at least it is some form of visual evidence.

The only videos I’ve seen are wvw which is a pretty terrible part of the game.

I think the people saying it’s fine are also exaggerating the stance of those that don’ think so. It’s not that we’re saying energy needs doubled or such. It’s that after entering a fight and using a few weapon skills, you have not enough energy to use a utility and if you swap legends to get some more energy you’re now stuck in a legend that doesn’t have the utility you need at the moment. You’re very limited in the “oh @#$” moments.

Well as I’ve said many times I think having to Legend Swap on cd is a crappy mechanic ,but as of last BWE that’s all you needed to do to keep the energy up enough to wreck people. I don’t feel like searching for the all the links ,but just look around the forums there are several SPvP and 1v1 Duel videos of Revenants really bringing the pain.

Sure if traited correctly they could do good enough damage against a single player. That’s not the issue. It’s when those oh crap moments happen often there isn’t the energy available when you need it. I don’t feel entering into combat just autoattacking to keep your energy up for the fight is a good way of doing things. There should be some other mechanic to give us a burst of energy besides swapping legends. Or if legend swapping stays the way to get energy I think we should have the choice of more legends like eles have more than 2 attunements. So we have better access to oh crap buttons. If my oh crap button is on legend 1 but I’m already on legend 1 and out of energy I can’t switch to 2 and then back because of the CD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkJ-0_8XuTc

He barely used his utility skills. The majority of the time he used IO or the brick road I forget the name of. I don’t think he used an elite the entire first match. This says nothing about energy being fine just that you can kill scrubs without problem.

Guess we didn’t watch the same video. You also should’ve watched the duel video ,but regardless he used every single utility in both Shiro and Jalis multiple times. If I really cared that much I could go back and time stamp each usage of a utility ,but I’m sure you would make up some other excuse. He even used Rite of The Great Dwarf and Force Engagement several times and most would consider those a complete waste of energy.

uhohhotdog.3598:

Griffith.7238:

uhohhotdog.3598:

Griffith.7238:

I’m also more into PvP and I think the energy system is fine as is. With that said I would still like to see energy costs removed from weapon skills and maybe some more active regen built into the class as I think that would be better for the overall feel and flow of the class ,but that is just a personal opinion. Regardless of if the energy system stays how it is right now or not I will still play the class with a smile on my face. I’ve seen many videos from players that prove that the Rev can work in it’s current state and that was pre buffs following the most recent BWE. Sure all videos are taken out of context ,but at least it is some form of visual evidence.

The only videos I’ve seen are wvw which is a pretty terrible part of the game.

I think the people saying it’s fine are also exaggerating the stance of those that don’ think so. It’s not that we’re saying energy needs doubled or such. It’s that after entering a fight and using a few weapon skills, you have not enough energy to use a utility and if you swap legends to get some more energy you’re now stuck in a legend that doesn’t have the utility you need at the moment. You’re very limited in the “oh @#$” moments.

Well as I’ve said many times I think having to Legend Swap on cd is a crappy mechanic ,but as of last BWE that’s all you needed to do to keep the energy up enough to wreck people. I don’t feel like searching for the all the links ,but just look around the forums there are several SPvP and 1v1 Duel videos of Revenants really bringing the pain.

Sure if traited correctly they could do good enough damage against a single player. That’s not the issue. It’s when those oh crap moments happen often there isn’t the energy available when you need it. I don’t feel entering into combat just autoattacking to keep your energy up for the fight is a good way of doing things. There should be some other mechanic to give us a burst of energy besides swapping legends. Or if legend swapping stays the way to get energy I think we should have the choice of more legends like eles have more than 2 attunements. So we have better access to oh crap buttons. If my oh crap button is on legend 1 but I’m already on legend 1 and out of energy I can’t switch to 2 and then back because of the CD.

uhohhotdog.3598:

Griffith.7238:

I’m also more into PvP and I think the energy system is fine as is. With that said I would still like to see energy costs removed from weapon skills and maybe some more active regen built into the class as I think that would be better for the overall feel and flow of the class ,but that is just a personal opinion. Regardless of if the energy system stays how it is right now or not I will still play the class with a smile on my face. I’ve seen many videos from players that prove that the Rev can work in it’s current state and that was pre buffs following the most recent BWE. Sure all videos are taken out of context ,but at least it is some form of visual evidence.

The only videos I’ve seen are wvw which is a pretty terrible part of the game.

I think the people saying it’s fine are also exaggerating the stance of those that don’ think so. It’s not that we’re saying energy needs doubled or such. It’s that after entering a fight and using a few weapon skills, you have not enough energy to use a utility and if you swap legends to get some more energy you’re now stuck in a legend that doesn’t have the utility you need at the moment. You’re very limited in the “oh @#$” moments.

Well as I’ve said many times I think having to Legend Swap on cd is a crappy mechanic ,but as of last BWE that’s all you needed to do to keep the energy up enough to wreck people. I don’t feel like searching for the all the links ,but just look around the forums there are several SPvP and 1v1 Duel videos of Revenants really bringing the pain.

I also think the tablet should follow the player. If you are going for literally 100% Support and not trying to deal damage to anyone at all then it’s fine that you should have to move the tablet around however that’s not how this game is played even support players like to use weapon skills and damage enemies even if their damage is negligible at best. Currently the Tablet requires way to much micromanagement to even think about doing other things while controlling it and that’s coming from a highly competitive player that managed 26+ keybinds for WoW arena back in the day. If they made it follow the player it would improve the fun factor of using it as well as allow it to have more synergy with other Legends and builds associated with them.

Avador.8934:

Griffith.7238:

If you guys can’t see how Rev utilities are stronger then other classes just think about the fact that we have access to 5 sec of Quickness every 10-15 sec what other class has a Utility, Buff, Ability that gives 5 sec of quickness every 10-15 sec…. I’ll wait.

Revenant’s utilities are not stronger than other classes utilities. The fact they have low or no cd is heavily compensated by their dependence on energy. Sure, you can have Impossible Odds active for a few more seconds, but prepare to deal with the fact that you will be soon out of energy, because you will probably want to use some other skills to make any benefit from this one. And Rev without energy = dead Rev.

While I agree that Legend Swapping on cooldown is not the best solution for the overall feel of the class it is still “A” solution. If you have watched any of the videos of players with a decent understanding of the class you will see that they pretty much blow through their energy then swap to get 50 more. You only need to make that 50 energy last 10 sec before you can get 50 more for free so that isn’t that hard to do.

I’m also more into PvP and I think the energy system is fine as is. With that said I would still like to see energy costs removed from weapon skills and maybe some more active regen built into the class as I think that would be better for the overall feel and flow of the class ,but that is just a personal opinion. Regardless of if the energy system stays how it is right now or not I will still play the class with a smile on my face. I’ve seen many videos from players that prove that the Rev can work in it’s current state and that was pre buffs following the most recent BWE. Sure all videos are taken out of context ,but at least it is some form of visual evidence.

Knox.8962:

Frigid blitz is a 1s animation. The tooltip may be 1/2s but it doesn’t activate that fast in game.

Oh did you bust out your stopwatch lol? Brutal Blade also has a travel time before it activates the final part of the AA chain did you factor that in too or just take the tooltip value for one and then make something up for the other?

Lewis Burnell.2493:

Guys, we were talking this Beta weekend Revenant, not with Glint, the shield and herald. Thanks to the Herald and changes Roy has made it’s in a fantastic position right now. The only issue is, certainly in sPvP, energy is often a problem and you’re forced to take Mallyx.

No you aren’t. This guy beats a necro without Mallyx.

Lewis Burnell.2493:

Recursivision.2367:

If you’re casually throwing jade winds into your rotation after using every single weapon skill, that’s your problem. Also, you could switch legends at that point and be right back at 50. I’m not seeing a problem.

I had a lot of success in PvP last beta, personally, and I can admit I’m nowhere near hitting the skill cap for the profession.

Revenant actually has pretty kitten solid defenses at the moment. Running staff sword/sword you have a 2 second block on a 10 second cooldown, a 2 second block on a 15 second cooldown, a high damage skill with built in evade on a 10 second cooldown, and another on a 20 second cooldown. That’s just the weapon skills. We can talk about how mallyx hard counters melee builds and Condi’s too if you’d like.

The recent changes are going to be pretty huge by themselves. Energy doesn’t need to be touched.

Why would I be “casually” throwing Jade Wind’s into the mix when it offers an enormous burn, combined with the root? I use it because the burst I described is huge damage. Did I state somewhere that I did poorly in sPvP? (quite the opposite) but that doesn’t change the fact that the revenant can – and does – run out of energy regularly, without too much skill use.

I would also argue heavily against the fact the revenant has “solid defences” he doesn’t. In fact, one of the poorest in the game.

The sword block is fine, but only provides the briefest of defences.
The same for the staff deflect.
His evades are incredibly short.

He lacks:

A total immunity skill (Signet of Stone/Endure Pain)
Has little or no access to Protection
Has no spike-self healing (ala Medi Guardian) though he does have some reasonable passive healing through traits
Has little mobility to avoid damage entirely
Has no access to regeneration outside of Ventari (even then it’s small)
Little if any access to Vigor

All of these things make Warriors, Guardians, Elementalists and heck, even Ranger’s incredibly tanky without compromising on damage.

I love the revenant as much as the next person, but lets not peddle the fact it’s a profession that has lots of solid defences when it can barely cleanse conditions outside of Mallyx. ;D

I don’t think you watched the Glint rundown or all the new changes posted after it?

Knox.8962:

Griffith.7238:

Ensign.2189:

Griffith.7238:

So you are saying that using Frigid Blitz which crits anywhere from 5-8k is a DPS loss.

That is exactly what I am saying. There is nothing you can do that is superior to IO + auto-attack.

You can use Frigid Blitz for a very, very modest DPS improvement while in your non-Shiro stance, but while in Shiro stance using it is a substantial DPS loss over continuing to auto-attack.

I mean its not a matter of what you think its just pure math even if all 3 AA hits crit you are looking at 5-6 damage over 4 sec where as Fridge Blitz is 5-8k damage in 1 sec.

Frigid Blitz has a 1.65 coefficient and a 1s cast time. The Auto Attack chain has a 2.1s cast time with (based on the numbers in the update post) a 1.513 coefficient/second. The difference is that Frigid Blitz has an energy cost that will take up 2.3 seconds worth of quickness from Impossible Odds. The quickness is worth roughly a 33% damage per second increase for the AA chain, which makes the 2.3s worth of quickness better than the paltry difference between the AA and the Frigid Blitz to begin with.

That doesn’t even factor in the lifesteal procs that also favor the AA + quickness.

TLDR: For max DPS, only use Impossible Odds + Auto Attack in Shiro Stance. Use Sword 3 and Axe 4 + AA when not in Shiro Stance.

Yeah for some reason I remembered the AA chain taking longer then 2.1s ,but I just checked it again and this is right. Frigid Blitz however is only 1/2s cast.

Avador.8934:

Griffith.7238:

If you guys can’t see how Rev utilities are stronger then other classes just think about the fact that we have access to 5 sec of Quickness every 10-15 sec what other class has a Utility, Buff, Ability that gives 5 sec of quickness every 10-15 sec…. I’ll wait.

Guardian’s “Feel My Wrath!” provides 5 sec of quickness, yeah, it’s 30 sec, but it’s AoE, + 10 sec of Fury and doesn’t punish your other skills (viz Energy)

It’s more then double the cd. I rest my case.

Haha awesome stuff man .. beat a Necro without Mallyx love it.

If you guys can’t see how Rev utilities are stronger then other classes just think about the fact that we have access to 5 sec of Quickness every 10-15 sec what other class has a Utility, Buff, Ability that gives 5 sec of quickness every 10-15 sec…. I’ll wait.

VergilDeZaniah.3295:

In GW2, we had less opportunities but we still managed to find a playstyle that suits us

The class might be different, built with this idea of “not like every other class”, but in the end it will just be the same for everyone.

If you can’t find a playstyle in the Rev that suits you then the class isn’t for you it’s really that simple. If you think adding a few Utilities is somehow going to change the play style so drastically that it all of a sudden is for you that just won’t be the case. As I’ve stated in great detail changing Utilities (especially on the other classes) does not change the way any particular build plays. Just because one D/P Thief uses Blinding Powder and the other doesn’t does not mean they don’t both play like a D/P Thief. What does change the way you play is changing an entire Legend. Which even if you changed all 5 skills on the right side of the bar on another class it still doesn’t have the same effect as changing a Legend because you are locked into the skills when you change a Legend and each Legend itself has a different playstyle associated with it. The Utilities current classes have access too are so basic or have too long of cooldown’s to have any real impact in play style.

You also say this class will be the same for everyone so either you didn’t read my post at all or you can’t comprehend what I just laid out. This class will not be the same for everyone. As I showed above there will be a variety of ways just to play one type of build based on the Weapons and Legends you choose to go with.

Hammerguard.9834:

Griffith, your desperation to dispute this suggestion is disturbing. There is literally not a single valid argument you can make. Adding more utilities for each legend is in every single possible way, a good thing for the class.

Look just above your post I literally just shattered the logic of everyone for it. “There’s no build variety with the Rev” bull kitten. Secondly, I never said I was against it just that it wasn’t necessary and it isn’t. Doesn’t matter anyway they won’t add anymore at least not til post HoT Launch. They will continue to work on the functionality of their current utilities for the time being. They spent years working on the other classes they are months away from HoT launch. They are not going to add new utilities in the hopes that by some divine miracle they can balance them in a few months. They still have to balance the current kit and convert things to work underwater you think they are gonna add more skills … nope.

VergilDeZaniah.3295:

That’s the point: if you wanted to use the elite venom, you’d have to slot all venoms. That’s why it is a bit “unfair” as a Revenant to be forced to use skills that aren’t effective for the sake of having one that is.

This is not a valid point. Shy of Glint (all skills are signets though still not sure if they are even labeled as such) the Revs utilities are not broken down into categories like the other classes aka Signets, Shouts, Meditations, Tricks, Deception, Cantrips, Banner’s etc. This is in fact the sole reason a lot of the the current classes’ utilities go unused. Rev’s were designed with the idea of receiving less utilities overall so more functionality was baked into each one. Look at Facet of Darkness as an example Pulses Fury, Blinds, is a Stun Break, and an AoE Reveal. That’s a lot of stuff for one Utility. So I will say it again this is the theme they clearly wanted to go for they actually wanted to make a class different from the rest (You know unlike the current classes that all have some combination of 25% movement speed signet, precision signet, power signet, toughness signet, real variety there guys). So Instead of adding new utilities they should increase the functionality on the current ones and balance from there.

NeroBoron.7285:

@griffith you just said “Just because they use 1 or 2 Utilities different does not change how they play and will not change the outcome of a fight”
So why shouldn’t get the revenant a little bit more room in skill options? It will not hurt anyone, but it will Providence those little tweaks in the skill section that is important to some people.

Because the Revenant is the one exception to this rule. Our Utilities are stronger and we get access to more of them (at once). With that said it doesn’t change the structure of PvP. Just knowing what someones build is isn’t enough to defeat them. Even if someone counters you if your skill outweighs theirs its enough to overcome the counter.

Mallyx is exceptional for Power based builds. The Elite is the whole point. 10% boost to stats is pretty big. It’s already being theorycrafted that Shiro/Mallyx will be maximum DPS output for Revs.

VergilDeZaniah.3295:

Well, Ventari is viable: why focus on dealing damage if you prefer healing/support? Ventari/Glint would be really good for that particular case.

I think you miss understood me. I meant it was not viable for the builds I was referring to (Power Based Damage) not that it wasn’t viable at all. It’s excellent for Support especially with the fix to the outgoing healing traits ,but trying to be a damage dealer and manage the tablet is not something I would recommend.

VergilDeZaniah.3295:

Griffith.7238:

snip

(Thief venoms, useless? You’re probably not a WvW player, as it is the meta for non-roaming thieves and it hurts a lot!)

I do agree completely with the weapon: each class is somehow restricted yet it offers different playstyles. But that’s not the point here.

If you play a mesmer in PvP, you won’t use the same build as a mesmer in PvE, another in dungeon, and a fourth one in WvW. When I see a mesmer in WvW, I wonder “Will they play interrupt/mantras? Will they hide-and-seek? Will they play punish?”, but when I see a Shiro Revenant, I know how they will play, I can easily counter and punish them. You have different combos, juste like the ones you’ve shown. But never will you say “Oh no, I didn’t expect that!” when meeting a Revenant.

Also, you said “With the majority of the current classes they have a limited pool of useful utilities to work with.” Indeed, some skills are useful while other are useless, that’s the problem we have with the Revenant: some skills are useful, others aren’t, but we have to use them.
Let’s take an example: I’m in WvW, with my guild, facing me there’s a blob. I use Jalis’ Forced Engagement (for 50 energy), I hit an enemy, they move towards me for 2 seconds. Either it will be dispelled by the enemy blob, or the enemy barely moves towards me to be efficient. It is somehow useless in WvW.
Also, a Mallyx Revenant will have more difficulties in WvW due to blobs cleansing their members easily, as well as consumables that reduce condition duration by 40%.
In a dungeon, running a Shiro revenant isn’t that useful: Impossible Odds? Somehow useful, but with the zerk meta, it will make you finish the boss 1 second faster. Riposting Shadows? Yes, it is useful. Phase Traversal? The dungeons are small, no need to shadowstep that much, and the unblockable part isn’t that needed, since most bosses melt quickly with a good group. Jade Wind? Useless against bosses.

So saying it’s ok is like saying you have to use Guardians’ Spirit Weapons or Thieves’ Tricks, even though you think they are useless within the game mode you play.

Edit: also you say you’re leaving Ventari out… But some people prefer to play heal, so it’s important to give it a chance (also it it useful in some Fractals and in WvW). You feel the same way about Ventari than other people feel about some skills: we’re not happy with the state of the utility skills.

Have yet to see a single build on meta battle (and lets be honest those are the meta builds) that use any venom other then basilisk. Spirit weapons haven’t been useful for a very long time. Again like I said some people don’t care about “meta” in which case everything is viable to them.

Most builds are not read by their utilities ,but by their weapon skills. I can tell what an enemy has up their sleeve based on what weapons they are using 90% of the time. Mesmers happen to be the class I know least about ,but especially when it comes to all the classes I play (Guardian, Thief, Ranger, Warrior) I know exactly what build their running once I see their weapons. Just because they use 1 or 2 Utilities different does not change how they play and will not change the outcome of a fight. Just because you know a Rev’s Legend doesn’t mean you know their second Legend for starters and it’ll also doesn’t provide any more of an advantage then you get from seeing what weapons most other classes are using. It’s like saying oh look its an elementalist oh and he is using dagger/dagger (big shocker they all are) now he can’t kill me because I know what build he is running. What you think you are going to be unbeatable by a Rev just cause you know what Legends he is using?

I left Ventari out not because of a personal choice ,but because I don’t see it as viable. Where as the other 6 choices I do see as viable. Ventari would most likely not be viable because trying to manage that tablet while focusing on dealing damage will be incredibly hard. Sure some highly skilled players might do it ,but the Legends that provide a benefit to damage don’t really have synergy with Ventari so what’s the point?

Gonna leave this here just for good measure

Yes some people do play differently then most are you saying that’s not possible on the Rev? In fact not only do I believe that there are many options for customization within a single type of build for the Rev ,but I would say they have more options then any other class in the game.

Lets break it down.

Weapons:
Pretty much every class is restricted between weapons depending on the type of build they want to go (Power, condi, support, etc.) this is no different for the Rev. We only get 1 condi weapon ,but we get Staff, Hammer, Sword/Sword, and Sword/Axe for Power. Right there that’s 6 possible weapon combinations for the Power based Rev’s (without overlapping weapons more if you overlap)(we def need more condi variety ,but we have more then enough for power based).

Utilities:
So this where everyone else seems to think the Rev lacks in variety and customization. This could not be further from the truth. Lets look at the current classes. With the majority of the current classes they have a limited pool of useful utilities to work with. A lot of these utilities get thrown out right off the bat due to being practically useless ex. Guard Spirit Weapons, Thief Venoms, Thief Tricks, etc.. Now let’s say for instance we have two D/P Thief’s these Thief’s could not share a single utility meaning they both have all 3 utilities different from one another. You say that’s customization and in a degree it is however with those 3 different utilities they will still play like a D/P Thief meaning they are going to play generally the same way. Now lets look at Rev. The Rev has 4 Legends that can benefit a Power based build Glint/Jalis/Mallyx/Shiro. That is a total of 6 combinations all of which play not slightly ,but completely different from one another. Even if you only differ in one Legend from another player that is 1 Heal, 3 Utilities, and 1 Elite difference which is more unique then any other class can be with the same type of build and that’s not even touching on the people that use 2 different Legends such as one guy using Glint/Shiro the other using Jalis/Mallyx.

Conclusion
So there it is 6 different Weapon combinations and 6 different Legend combinations for just Power based builds. How can anyone ANYONE say that Rev does not have any room for individuality.

The fact of the matter is that yes the Legends are tailored for specific things ,but we don’t have to choose only 1.

Shiro/Glint: Mobility, Damage, Support
Mallyx/Glint: Condi Control/ Damage/ Support
Shiro/Mallyx: Mobility, Damage, Condi Control
Jalis/Shiro: Tank/Support/Mobility/Damage
Jalis/Mallyx: Tank/Support/Condi Control/Damage
Jalis/Glint: Tank/Support/Damage

Do you see where this is going? They all achieve similar things in completely different ways. I could use every single one of those with a Power based damage build. Sure some will definitely be better then others ,but will most be viable… yes. Half the people don’t care about viability in which case they will all be 100% viable. Look how much customization that is before you even consider the 6 weapon combinations.

PS. You really could throw Ventari in there as well ,but I’m not too happy with the state of that Legend at the moment and trying to do damage while moving that tablet around seems like a real chore so I left it out. Oh and I left out Shield kitten .