Guild Wars 2

Glacial.9516:

Upon clicking this thread I assumed it would be a troll thread attacking the other races and I am glad to see it was not. I think the OP has a point – designing armors and outfits for multiple different races surely slows down the development. Perhaps it doesn’t take 5 times as long, but I would venture a guess of at least double? (No data backing this up, purely speculation and assumption).

I don’t think the story would be drastically different with one race vs multiple, except in our interactions with other races (ie. If the Pact commander were always Sylvari, HoT would have been very different and very interesting). It still has to encompass both genders and a wide variety of personalities. Perhaps it would have been fun to have played more on the Ferocity – Dignity – Charisma aspects and have different voice actors and/or variants on scenes for each (rather than small, nearly irrelevant choices).

All of that said, I love the different races of Tyria. There is something about each that I find fascinating. I really enjoy playing through the personal stories and learning about the cultures. They are each unique but still share similarities that make them relatable to one another.

I’m quite happy with the way GW2 is and I don’t think I’d trade the other races for more outfits and a more involved story, but it is interesting to think about what could have been.

Thanks for understanding.
And here’s a thing you mentioned which I had initially missed – you’re right about HoT.

HoT on a sylvari is really no different from HoT on a human. The only major differences in stories are in the PS that came with core GW2 – and that was a long time ago.

Unfortunately they’re not making things much more different in the story now based on what race you are. So a lot of the “flavor” argument is lost.

niea.7504:

Why Human only? If your (rather silly) reasoning is that it’s so much easier to make skins when there’s just a single race, then it should have been Asura only. Asura master race.

No it should not have.
Humans are the most popular and the easiest to identify with. If you want to sell you sell to the biggest demographic you can – which is players that play humans.

zengara.8301:

2 things:

1.
Human race most popular race? Like any proofs that it is true or just guessing?

2.
Gear have gone from something that would look good in a fantasy mmo, to something that reminds me of Power Ranger suits……I would personally rather have them focus on content rather than endless skin grinding

3.
Practical reasons? no offence, but if this game only had 1 playable race.. then there might have been a massive chance for me and a whole lot more not playing or even noticing this game, which would put it in what I would call the “Wildstar zone”

1.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3dcvf0/here_are_the_classesraces_that_people_actually/
http://www.pcgamer.com/guild-wars-2-designer/
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/john-smith-on-the-state-of-the-guild-wars-2-economy/

You can also go in-game and try to do your own observations at world events and whatnot.

While no new statistics have been released there is little to no reason to believe humans are not the most popular race since all the evidence we have points to it being so and there is nothing I’ve found that points to any other race being more popular.

2. GW2’s progression is skin grinding. That’s what it was promised to be – cosmetic driven horizontal progression.

3. To assume that GW2 would fail just because you and others might not pick it up is silly.
I can easily assume that if it was human-only MORE people would have bought it and the reason more people didn’t get it is because there are more races.

Wildstar failed for a lot of reasons – please don’t compare apples to oranges.

Galtrix.7369:

Night elves, humans, draenei, blood elves, trolls, tauren, goblins, worgen, orc, undead, pandaren, gnomes, and dwarves. I don’t know about you, but I’ve never heard anyone complain about the lack of armor or variety of armor in WoW… and they have many, many more races than GW2 has.

It’s not the races in GW2 that slow down the production of armor. If I had to guess, I would say the reason we receive so little armor additions is because Anet is spread too thin. One of the developers mentioned that it takes upwards of 9 months to create one armor set in GW2… and meanwhile Rift, Lineage, WoW, Aion, and many more MMO’s (including F2P) pop out an armor set every couple of months. The only logical explanation is that the armor people at Anet are working on something else.

Well mate – let me explain it like this. Blizzard is HUGE. You know what WoW has? It has many, many employees working on the game.

Their game is also less complex from a developer standpoint so I would argue making armor in WoW is easier than making armor in GW2 but even if that wasn’t the case the two studios are very very different in size.

So yes – for Blizz it isn’t an issue making armor and skins for a lot of races because they have the manpower to do it. Anet doesn’t – and never did.

I feel it was a mistake to think they could pull it off.

I know they are working on something else but here’s the catch – they can’t really afford to.
There’s a reason we call this game “Skin wars 2” – because the game’s progression here is horizontal – cosmetic. It’s the chase for more skins. You know what you need to make a lot of in a game where the end-game is skins? You guessed it – it’s skins.

Rauderi.8706:

Doubt I would have gotten into GW2 if it were nothing but boring human things. The lore is much richer for the variety. I can just hope they’ll get around to advancing the other races in storyline now that Mordy’s deaders.

And, while I’m having trouble finding “good” skins, that’s not a fault of the development cycle and needing to fit several races. It’s the fault of buttcapes and chainmail skirts and too many armors looking similar to one another or just ranging in bad-to-godsawful. It’s looking at half of the outfits that came out in the past year and wincing, because bird-shoulders, junk plate armor, and boob wings. And if there are numerous “good” skins for an armor weight, they don’t dye the same way or their gloss makes them different, so the lauded mix-and-match ideal just gets more difficult anyway.

I don’t want more armor skins, I want better and more coherent armor skin design.

The lore could have been just as rich regardless of what races we could or could not play. This is not an argument.

GW1:EOTN had rich asura, norn and charr lore without the PC being either of those races. Parts of the story were specifically fixed on these races and there was a very lore-rich narrative there.
In a way I feel it was much more interesting to experience these races as the odd one looking in. They felt somehow unique and more interesting back in GW1 particularly because you couldn’t be a part of them. Being able to make a character of that race feels kinda odd to me.

A human-only choice of playable races doesn’t mean the other races don’t exist lore-wise – that they can’t have stories or meaningful impact. It just means they would have an easier time as developers making skins.

And yes – having fewer races to put armor on means that you could make MORE armor but also better quality armor. We’re not getting either at this time.

Ardid.7203:

Humans, IMO, are the weakest of the races, lore and design wise. That armor is tweaked to suit them first instead of made as it should (one diferent frame for every race) is unfortunate and sad. But an only human game would be sadder.
I have 2 of every race in the game, but play Asura and Silvary the most. Armor is always nice, but in the endi it doesn’t determine which characters I like or play the most.

The armors I’ve done for my Asura and Charr are magnificent, despite the lazyness of Anet about making stuff for them. My humans are well dressed too: well dressed mules I hardly play.

Check other games around. Look for well developed, interesting and fun races, visual and lore wise. You’ll find GW2’s Asura and Charr take the crown without effort. Humans, on the other hand, are the same generic, standard, no-risk, boring dolls in almost every single game.

Did you play GW1? It was all-human and the race was not boring.
The only reason you consider GW2 humans boring is because a lot of what could have been written in for humans or human factions has been distributed to the other races.

Heavily militarized warlike faction? That could have easily been a human sub-faction and not the Charr.

Highly-advanced magic-users that value technology? Could have been humans but instead this was used for Asura.

While I would argue GW2’s humans are not boring they are made more boring by having stuff they could have incorporated given out to the other “non-boring” races.

Jahroots.6791:

I’d have been happy with human only as well, with greater emphasis placed on the varying human cultures – Kryta, Elona and yes…Cantha. Would’ve been pretty amazing.

Or at least stick to the non-human races that could use similar frames (Human, Norn and Sylvari). I’d definitely play a Norn male if they were just taller humans with better hairstyles and tattoos.

Pretty much this – would have had diversity and skins.

All of the in-game races are not significantly different from human factions they could have made. Apart from the visuals and the skins ( or lack there of).

Off-topic – norn are too bulky – I agree with you.

Basically I’m just getting a lot of “I like X race” but do you think that it’s worth it in the long run? Look at how pitifully few armor skins HoT came with?

Torzini.1523:

GW1 was uninteresting to me partly because it was human-only. I love my charr characters in GW2, and they’re a huge reason why I keep playing.

Echoing everyone who said they would be bored to tears in an all-human game.

Why would you be bored? Because of the visuals or because of the story?

I really don’t understand why a human-only game would be boring.

I agree with the more options argument people put out but more options can also mean different groups of humans with different backgrounds.

If you mean more options visually – I get that too – but I think charr and asura were a step too far. If you must have more races then at least make sure they’re very similar to human so you can actually produce skins for them.

I get that other races were the reason some people played the game – I get that some of you find humans boring but the majority of players are actually human.
Because humans are the thing we can most easily identify with.

carabidus.6214:

I think playing through the personal stories of all the races is an essential feature of the game. That being said, Charr are impossible to clothe. They are large, hunched and have a substantial tail. Anything I put on them looks awful, which is disappointing for a game so heavily rooted in chasing skins.

The same can be said for the Asura. Their compact, little bodies don’t carry most skins and armors well at all.

This is a big reason why I main human characters exclusively…

Pretty much. The two races were well designed and interesting from a lore and narrative perspective in the first game but structurally neither of them was conceived with the idea of creating in-game assets (skins) for them as playable races.

And that’s why today’s system is a mess.

Watching WP’s recent video about new races really made me crystallize some thoughts that I’ve had for a long time.

Watch it yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oVADcOSTeY

The game is struggling with the production of cosmetic items and one of the main reasons is the fact that it has too many races.
The main culprits here are the Charr – but every race’s particularities have some part in slowing down the process of creating new armor.
This is a problem because armor and cosmetics are the primary driving force that keeps people going in GW2. It’s not gear grild – it’s skin grind – and we’ve got very very little skins.

The game released with a good abundance of skins – but ever since we’ve had too little come into the game either through the gem store or other means.

That aside I also feel the story could have been much more interesting, focused and well written if they didn’t have to write a neutral 5-race story and by doing so distanced themselves quite a lot from the franchise’s original lore and setting.

I don’t hate the non-human races – In fact they could have had just as much story and lore expanding their stories in the game but the only playable race should have been limited to humans – for practical reasons.
Humans are already the most popular race in-game and were so even close after launch.

I’m actually curious how others feel. Do you like the fact that we have 4 other races even if it means we get armor very very very rarely? Do you think it was worth it?

The low sales have nothing to do with Raids.

There are a couple other things that the game did poorly and that’s why sales are low.

Look at all the broken promises. Look at the poor quality of HoT.

I’d rather get my precursor from the TP and make a legendary weapon that’s new and shiny than have no legendary weapons.

Yes in an ideal world the HoT system is better – but they can’t make it happen.

My point is: something is better than nothing.

mostrol.6975:

So, I saw a dev post about fractals being stepping stones to raids. No thank you. Please keep raids well away from fractals.

I have no interest in raiding. I will never raid. Stop trying to move us towards making fractals into raids. Why is everything thing in this game from anet these days, obsessed with ‘hard core’ and raiding – it’s spilling over into other areas. And now they are messing with fractals to raid-i-fy them.

Just…. no.

Oh – but yes.
:D

Seera.5916:

Harper.4173:

Zelanard.5806:

Felahr.9830:

No. why would you think this is reportable behavior?

Because he were treated with exceeding rudeness?

This makes me laugh. Rudeness is now a reason to report people?

Here’s a clue – the kick function is there for a reason. If the commander wanted something and the whole group did it and wanted it except him they are well within their rights to kick him.

Rudeness if excessive I’d say is reportable. This instance does not appear to even be rude at all based on what I’ve read.

It wasn’t. Raid groups are not democracies – they are run by one person. That person decides they don’t want you -you get the boot. Simple as that. There’s nothing rude/personal about it.

Mea.5491:

Ardenwolfe.8590:

As rude as this may be, I don’t believe it to be reportable. But I will say it’s another reason many don’t do raids.

Elitism.

Sadly, if you raid, you’re eventually going to encounter this kind of behavior.

That kind of behavior should be punished. Elitism should be reportable, it’s the cancer of MMOs. I wish we could actually do something against it but game devs usually don’t care. It’s sad.

Once I was doing DS meta, commander put me in 2nd group for boss at tower, I said “I’m better at running because I wear Knight gear”. They called me noob and kicked me out of the squad just because I play the way I want. (But that’s why I love metas, they can’t kick me out of the map so I went to an other lane. XD)

You can’t punish people for wanting to play a certain way. If you want to play a certain way go for it but do not expect others to want to play with you. Just like you have the right to run knights others have the right to rid themselves of playing with you.

Because you ruin their fun. And this game is about fun.

Zelanard.5806:

Felahr.9830:

No. why would you think this is reportable behavior?

Because he were treated with exceeding rudeness?

This makes me laugh. Rudeness is now a reason to report people?

Here’s a clue – the kick function is there for a reason. If the commander wanted something and the whole group did it and wanted it except him they are well within their rights to kick him.

The problem with HoT-type legendary weapons is that their implementation – the collections, quests and whatnot take a lot of time and work to implement.

Sure – the HoT system felt more “legendary” than the generation one weapons did BUT if I had a choice between indefinite hold and just having the rest of the new legendaries released same as the 1st generation legendary weapons were I would choose to have them release.

It’s really about skins – I’d rather have more skins. It’s really sad they can’t even deliver what they promised they would.

Anyone have any idea what dyes the WM troops use? I’ve been trying to replicate their look on Human Cultural T3 armor but I can’t quite get the right red on the cloth part of the armor.

Anyone have any success?

Not tired of GS – Loved GS on release and I love it now.

Yes it does take a lot of time and resources invested if you want to raid. But OTHERS are raiding and that means it is doable.
The only problem is that others aren’t willing to bother but still want the benefits of raiding. Without having to actually do the things required.

It’s like me demanding that I get the Exalted Backpiece item skin because I bought HoT and because I want it.
I don’t want to work for it and do Tarir and events to get the collection done – I just want the item – so Anet give it to me because it’s content and I paid for the expansion.

Don’t give me the “timeframe argument” – there are raid groups from EVERY timezone.
I’m on the US server and play on EU time – so I know what it’s like to have difficulty with raiding because of time zones. I found people in my time zone though – I went to the effort of doing it and I did.
And when I couldn’t I made the effort and raided at 3 AM with the US people. Because if you want to do something then you have to sacrifice something.

Most raiding guilds have more than one team – and you can always make your own group.

The logistic I “seemingly take for granted” is there for me because I actually bothered to do things in order to make that logistic happen.
I geared up my characters so I could get into a good raiding guild. I talked to people – I found people in my timezone.
When I couldn’t run with a static group I made PUG groups and led the raid myself – because I wanted the kills and knew nobody was going to do stuff for me unless I did it myself.

Next thing I hear is that starting the game is hard too.

I would really really like some more cultural armor

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Cyninja.2954:

Astralporing.1957:

Harper.4173:

Astralporing.1957:

Walhalla.5473:

Raids are succeeding where Dungeons failed hard

Considering that dungeons likely were far more popular than raids will ever be, that’s a mighty claim.

People DID dungeons. That doesn’t mean they enjoyed them.

Because everyone that’s running raids is so obviously enjoying them [/sarcasm]

Actually, the common opinion from people who run raids is that the fights are fun, challenging and a full success.

The major complaints come from people who do not raid interestingly enough have difficulties organizing a raid because they’re not going to be bothered to actually do it.

I took the liberty of making a small correction.

I fixed it for you.
If others can do it – so can you.

Cyninja.2954:

Astralporing.1957:

Harper.4173:

Astralporing.1957:

Walhalla.5473:

Raids are succeeding where Dungeons failed hard

Considering that dungeons likely were far more popular than raids will ever be, that’s a mighty claim.

People DID dungeons. That doesn’t mean they enjoyed them.

Because everyone that’s running raids is so obviously enjoying them [/sarcasm]

Actually, the common opinion from people who run raids is that the fights are fun, challenging and a full success.

The major complaints come from people who do not raid interestingly enough.

People who raid actually enjoy it. I’ve seen many “established” raiders raid 2-3-4-5 times a week, sometimes clearing wings numerous times to help friends or newbie players.
I would raid more than clearing once too provided I had the time for it because it is actually fun.

As Cy nicely noted – most QQ about raids is from non-raiders.
Just like back in the day most people who QQd about the dungeon meta only did dungeons like maybe a couple of times a week.

Astralporing.1957:

Walhalla.5473:

Raids are succeeding where Dungeons failed hard

Considering that dungeons likely were far more popular than raids will ever be, that’s a mighty claim.

People DID dungeons. That doesn’t mean they enjoyed them.
I ran dungeons – and still do – does that mean I consider them a success? Not really. I just like the easy loot.

Ging.6485:

Rednik.3809:

william dj.6953:

To those saying making these changes will hinder future raid development. Basically you’re saying don’t change the difficulty that way we will have more difficult content that even less people will do. In others words if Anet spent time making changes to help ALL the players then that would take away content from the elite players.

So why would players who are unable to raid now be concerned about future development of raids?

Then why Anet should be concerned with making more raids in future if their population will remain small fracture of whole? They are not a charity company, and GW2 was never advertised as raiding game.
Your logic works in both ways.

I stopped playing WoW in 2010, but the GW2 raiding debacle lead me to go read up about WoW raiding. Apparently what lead to the LFR tool was the fact that 90% of the player base didn’t have easy access to raiding and it was an expensive endeavor.

The inherent problem with raiding in anything seems to be the organization factor more than anything else. It requires that someone gets 10 people together and keeps them coordinated, which is not an easy job.

Fractals don’t require the organization, and open world content (world bosses, DS, etc) really only require that the zerg follows your lead, they don’t have to learn specific roles.

So really it seems the choices are :

1. Keep things the way they are, small portion of the player base is happy with a larger portion that are afraid of raids or angry about them.

2. Give up on raids all together.

3. Find a way to trivialize the organization factor.

WoW chose #3.

What you have to understand here is that you are on the forums. Where only a FEW of the people actually playing GW2 go.
Out of those few some are for raids and some are against raids. But that does not immediately imply that the SILENT majority playing the game has issues with raids or that they even care about them.

Ging.6485:

Harper.4173:

Ging.6485:

The problem that exists is not unique to raids. Before raids the problem existed with dungeons and to an extent fractals. It’s a toxic competitive environment where the majority of the player base doesn’t want one. Fractals have become a once a day endeavor that are to some extent trivial enough to not bother the majority of people requiring perfection, but raids are intrinsically not that type of gameplay element.

While I was thinking about how to eliminate the toxicity from raiding, I came up with one idea that would probably kitten off a lot of people. That is, make all encounters pass / fail.

By that I mean, remove any extra reward gained from completing an encounter optimally. By any reward I mean even the time you save by having great DPS and awesome skill.

For Example : Making VG an 8 minute fight, period. Putting in artificial barriers that prevent a group from beating it in less than 8 minutes. What would this do? It would mean that, any group capable of beating the boss would be just as good as the best possible group capable of beating the boss. After all, there would be no difference in the outcome.

This isn’t really my idea as a player, it’s more of the idea I came up with to solve the problem of a min/max mentality while at the same time not compromising the challenging aspect of the encounter.

How does this improve anything? People will still min-max. Even if you’re min-maxing effort vs kill and not something else.

You can’t stop people from min-maxing.

If you take the incentive to min-max away, you can. The inherent incentive is that they save time, or get to show off. If you take the ability to do that away, then people will have no reason to min-max.

I am not suggesting that they actually implement this. I am just saying, that the root of the (LFM Vegeta, 9001 LI exp Super Saiyan) requirements, is that there is an incentive to take a class / person who can do the encounter optimally, versus taking someone who can just do it adequately.

Except it will become min-maxing in an clear vs effort kind of way.
You’ll be minimising effort put into a clear and still min-maxing. Because if you can’t do it FASTER you might as well do it EASIER and safer.

It will still create class discrepancy, roles and people demanding a certain meta. It will simply be a DIFFERENT meta.

Adequate will never be “good enough” for a certain group of people – with your new system the “optimal” will simply change to mean something else.

Ging.6485:

The problem that exists is not unique to raids. Before raids the problem existed with dungeons and to an extent fractals. It’s a toxic competitive environment where the majority of the player base doesn’t want one. Fractals have become a once a day endeavor that are to some extent trivial enough to not bother the majority of people requiring perfection, but raids are intrinsically not that type of gameplay element.

While I was thinking about how to eliminate the toxicity from raiding, I came up with one idea that would probably kitten off a lot of people. That is, make all encounters pass / fail.

By that I mean, remove any extra reward gained from completing an encounter optimally. By any reward I mean even the time you save by having great DPS and awesome skill.

For Example : Making VG an 8 minute fight, period. Putting in artificial barriers that prevent a group from beating it in less than 8 minutes. What would this do? It would mean that, any group capable of beating the boss would be just as good as the best possible group capable of beating the boss. After all, there would be no difference in the outcome.

This isn’t really my idea as a player, it’s more of the idea I came up with to solve the problem of a min/max mentality while at the same time not compromising the challenging aspect of the encounter.

How does this improve anything? People will still min-max. Even if you’re min-maxing effort vs kill and not something else.

You can’t stop people from min-maxing.

Swagger.1459:

Harper.4173:

Swagger.1459:

Harper.4173:

Blaeys.3102:

OriOri.8724:

Some content needs to be challenging and only challenging.

Obviously, there are many who disagree with this statement.

Providing multiple difficulty tiers in no way alters the harder experience – and I firmly believe that most hardcore players are mature enough to not feel that something someone else is doing in a completely different instance – that they acknowledge isn’t as demanding – someone diminishes their accomplishment.

It’s either out of selfishness or some silly grade school playground “you can’t play with my toys” complex.

It is because earning the same unique skin rewards would certainly diminish the feeling of accomplishment.

How is my raid skin unique and a strong statement about my skill if everyone else has it from doing “ez mode raids”?
I don’t mind everyone else having it from doing normal raids – it just means they’re also good – but the initial statement about MY skill remains true. But if they get it from “ez mode” raids then the message my unique skin tells becomes lost.

How many LI do you have?

127. Why does it matter?

Do you feel diminished by players buying their LI?

LI? No.
Skins? yes – even legendary armor.
However – I don’t see it as a hugely gamebreaking issue because given the current prices I doubt very many people can afford it.

Is it a problem for me? yes.
Is it a huge problem? No.

Would an easy mode raid constitute a problem? Yes – and it would be a MUCH bigger one.

Does this answer your questions?

Blaeys.3102:

Harper.4173:

Blaeys.3102:

OriOri.8724:

Some content needs to be challenging and only challenging.

Obviously, there are many who disagree with this statement.

Providing multiple difficulty tiers in no way alters the harder experience – and I firmly believe that most hardcore players are mature enough to not feel that something someone else is doing in a completely different instance – that they acknowledge isn’t as demanding – someone diminishes their accomplishment.

It’s either out of selfishness or some silly grade school playground “you can’t play with my toys” complex.

It is because earning the same unique skin rewards would certainly diminish the feeling of accomplishment.

How is my raid skin unique and a strong statement about my skill if everyone else has it from doing “ez mode raids”?
I don’t mind everyone else having it from doing normal raids – it just means they’re also good – but the initial statement about MY skill remains true. But if they get it from “ez mode” raids then the message my unique skin tells becomes lost.

I actually agree 100% with this.

What many of us are advocating is tiered difficulty and tiered reward. This is about the experience of the raid, not unrealistic expectations about comparable rewards.

Anet does a good job of allocating rewards based on skill level – whether it is through the gold/silver/bronze system, enhanced difficulty achievements (my mini clockheart is still my favorite mini for this very reason) or straight levels (as with fractal and gold fractal weapon skins).

I would NEVER want them to deviate from that (let me say it again very loudly – NEVER ). You do something that is harder, you deserve a way to show that off.

This is solely about accessibility to the experience.

Tiered reward systems that don’t invalidate skin statements would only work if they implemented a system that is akin to taking a precursor from its initial skin to the final legendary form.

With that I mean this – if you get broze in raids and can only do bronze you should only have access to a very simplistic skin variant of the final skin rewards found in the raid. If you got silver -a better skin – and gold would get you the original raid-reward skin in its full glory.

That could work.

But giving people tiered rewards ( less shards, worse drops, less gold) while allowing them access to the full variety of raid reward skins would in time invalidate those items. Because people with no skill would just grind through it.

Swagger.1459:

Harper.4173:

Blaeys.3102:

OriOri.8724:

Some content needs to be challenging and only challenging.

Obviously, there are many who disagree with this statement.

Providing multiple difficulty tiers in no way alters the harder experience – and I firmly believe that most hardcore players are mature enough to not feel that something someone else is doing in a completely different instance – that they acknowledge isn’t as demanding – someone diminishes their accomplishment.

It’s either out of selfishness or some silly grade school playground “you can’t play with my toys” complex.

It is because earning the same unique skin rewards would certainly diminish the feeling of accomplishment.

How is my raid skin unique and a strong statement about my skill if everyone else has it from doing “ez mode raids”?
I don’t mind everyone else having it from doing normal raids – it just means they’re also good – but the initial statement about MY skill remains true. But if they get it from “ez mode” raids then the message my unique skin tells becomes lost.

How many LI do you have?

127. Why does it matter?

Blaeys.3102:

Harper.4173:

Blaeys.3102:

Almost no one on these forums is advocating removing hardcore content or saying that it shouldn’t be in the game. In fact, most go out of their way to say the opposite.

The argument is that, just because a game mode includes hardmode content doesn’t mean it can’t also offer a more casual experience – and that, in fact, by offering that experience alongside hardcore content, you will encourage more people to try it out, give devs a reason to continue making that content and give the truly casual players something fun to do as well.

I’m tired of people saying that anyone who criticizes the current raid model is immediately anti-hard content. It simply isn’t true.

To the topic at hand, the reason people are focusing on the 5 vs 10 player part of WP’s video is because that is a fairly new perspective that hasn’t been discussed – at great length – on these forums, whereas the rest of his points have (a lot).

I’ve seen countless criticisms to raids that go along the line of: “This is the casual MMO for non-hardcore people – where no hard content should exist – casual/bad players should be able to get everything and do everything because that’s what we think Anet wanted when they made GW2”.

They then back this up with “dungeons are easy” except they weren’t at the start and became easy because Anet dropped the ball in their implementation. Once people figured out how to do them they became easy.

The difference between dungeons (and fractals) and raids is this – yes dungeons were hard, but they were hard for the right reasons. They did not include mechanics specifically designed to completely discourage particular playstyles, builds and stat selections (some of which players enjoyed using since the start of the game).

Raids have some amazing mechanics, but the inclusion of enrage timers (even very forgiving enrage timers) creates artificial barriers to entry that don’t need to be there – and, more importantly, punishes people who choose to play differently than the accepted meta.

Early on, Anet focused on the right kind of mechanics to create difficulty – and those still exist in raids. But, by adding the artificial unnecessary barriers such as enrage timers, they tell those players that were enjoying those builds/playstyles for years that “you are playing the game wrong,” which I do not agree with and do not like.

And for the record, because I know I will get flack for the above, I think there is a way they could keep timers in the fights without completely limiting playstyles – just do not use them as definitive barriers to entry. Implement a gold/silver/bronze reward system that allocates reward based on kill speed.

Dungeons were hard at the beginning. The problem with that is people found they can just endlessly kite bosses around or use other “safe” techniques to clear the content without actually being good at the game.

So – naturally with Raids the devs made sure the content is much more “set” – you have certain roles to fill and things you need to do.
You can’t kite and range bosses. So yeah – that playstyle is discouraged. However there is a lot of role variety in raids – perhaps more than there was in dungeons even at the beginning.

Enrage timers are there to do two things:

1.Ensure you can’t safely range the boss for 45 minutes and get a kill without ever being in real danger.
2.Ensure that people are actually decent at the game and the mechanics – because you not only have to do the mechanics but also keep up DPS.

Imagine VG without a timer. It would be failproof – everyone would range the boss as a 10 man zerg while doing greens.

People who “choose to play differently than the accepted meta” – that’s wrong.
The meta has shifted – the “accepted meta” was formed when Raids were released. Also – it is common sense to play the right way for the specific encounter you are playing.

I get that someone might want to roleplay as a “ranger” and camp longbow – but if the boss doesn’t take ranged damage ( for example) then you have to switch – regardless of what you “want to do”. it’s called being adaptable and competent.

Early on, Anet focused on the right kind of mechanics to create difficulty – and those still exist in raids.

What exactly were these “early on” mechanics?

But, by adding the artificial unnecessary barriers such as enrage timers, they tell those players that were enjoying those builds/playstyles for years that “you are playing the game wrong,” which I do not agree with and do not like.

First of all – they are not unnecessary – I explained above why they ARE necessary.
And they are saying “you are not good enough to clear THIS content – improve and try again – adapt and become better”.

Blaeys.3102:

OriOri.8724:

Some content needs to be challenging and only challenging.

Obviously, there are many who disagree with this statement.

Providing multiple difficulty tiers in no way alters the harder experience – and I firmly believe that most hardcore players are mature enough to not feel that something someone else is doing in a completely different instance – that they acknowledge isn’t as demanding – someone diminishes their accomplishment.

It’s either out of selfishness or some silly grade school playground “you can’t play with my toys” complex.

It is because earning the same unique skin rewards would certainly diminish the feeling of accomplishment.

How is my raid skin unique and a strong statement about my skill if everyone else has it from doing “ez mode raids”?
I don’t mind everyone else having it from doing normal raids – it just means they’re also good – but the initial statement about MY skill remains true. But if they get it from “ez mode” raids then the message my unique skin tells becomes lost.

Blaeys.3102:

Almost no one on these forums is advocating removing hardcore content or saying that it shouldn’t be in the game. In fact, most go out of their way to say the opposite.

The argument is that, just because a game mode includes hardmode content doesn’t mean it can’t also offer a more casual experience – and that, in fact, by offering that experience alongside hardcore content, you will encourage more people to try it out, give devs a reason to continue making that content and give the truly casual players something fun to do as well.

I’m tired of people saying that anyone who criticizes the current raid model is immediately anti-hard content. It simply isn’t true.

To the topic at hand, the reason people are focusing on the 5 vs 10 player part of WP’s video is because that is a fairly new perspective that hasn’t been discussed – at great length – on these forums, whereas the rest of his points have (a lot).

I’ve seen countless criticisms to raids that go along the line of: “This is the casual MMO for non-hardcore people – where no hard content should exist – casual/bad players should be able to get everything and do everything because that’s what we think Anet wanted when they made GW2”.

They then back this up with “dungeons are easy” except they weren’t at the start and became easy because Anet dropped the ball in their implementation. Once people figured out how to do them they became easy.

I liked the video because it brought up a lot of valid points – especially that GW2 was never supposed to be devoid of really hard content.
Dungeons ended up being easy because Anet dropped the ball on them – not because they were never supposed to be hard.

I am sick and tired of “casuals” spamming the forums with “this game was never supposed to have any hard content – that’s not what Anet intended”.

Hypairion.9210:

Harper.4173:

LegACy.1296:

Guys, stop getting into Ohoni’s pace. Seriously.
He has his own point of view and he won’t change, no matter what you say.

Yes, it could be pretty tempting, but it’s pointless. He’s the kind of guy who always want to have the last words. Just… save your energy and hope ArenaNet understands that they don’t need to cater to his specific needs.

Irrelevant – we must counter him every step of the way until he decides to call it quits and retreats back to wherever he came from.
He’s human and thus will at one point cease. We have to keep going until that point is reached.

hmm, what will happen is most probably the thread is closed (it’s what happen with him usually…)

And if it is – Ohoni’s precious opinions will be lost like tears in rain – which wouldn’t be a bad thing at all.

Ohoni.6057:

Again, “lines of dialog” != “story.”

How do you define story?
If not by actual in-game dialogue, text or custcenes – what?

Ohoni.6057:

But you’re wrong, because it is. It’s possible that on a single player level, the skill expected of you is not that much higher on Raids than on certain dungeon encounters, but given the tuning and the bump to ten players, there’s a lot more than can go wrong and cause a wipe. The practical difficulty of the raid bosses is clearly higher, at least for most of them.

Have you actually raided? Because I’m going to tell you this is not the case. On a single player level the skill required of you is much lower in dungeons than in raids.
Do you raid now?

Ohoni.6057:

Well I’m sorry, that sort of “train to git gud” mentality is just not something that will ever interest me.

Just like Legendary armor right mate?

Ohoni.6057:

, but I do so at my own pace, by succeeding at content I enjoy over and over, not by failing at content that I hate over and over.

Then there’s no problem – a few years form now I’m sure you’ll have VG on farm.

Ohoni.6057:

So I’m not trying to take your raiding experience away from you, if that’s what you enjoy, then great, keep enjoying it, but I want something different, and will continue to push for that. I will NEVER want what you want from it, and no amount of convincing will ever move me closer to wanting that.

Cool story. You might be here for quite a wait.

Ohoni.6057:

Because the currently available mode is too hard.

Do you get to define too hard? Why is it “too hard” and not “too easy”?

Ohoni.6057:

but this isn’t a game where you HAVE to group with others effectively to do most of the content. That’s the issue with raids, if this game were ALL raids, then of course you should be expected to have a raider mentality if you want to play the game at all, but if most of the game does not require a raider mentality at even the most basic level, and then this particular activity does require that, and in so doing gates off story elements and desirable rewards, then why shouldn’t players be upset, if they enjoy 90% of the game but are blocked off from elements of it that they would like to have by content that is out of step with everything else?

Because they already have 90% of the game to do whatever they want in – this last 10% is also for them BUT only if they improve adapt and get better. That’s why they shouldn’t be upset. Because we were expected to suck it up with no real “hardcore” content for 3 years – and nobody really cared that wasn’t fun for us.

Ohoni.6057:

Unlikely, considering that PvP queues are hella long. If I had to hazard a guess I’d say that the active PvP League participation this season is at half or less what it was in season 1, when the PvE maps were also more active. If the same number of players are just distributed differently then they are doing an excellent job of hiding themselves.

That’s mostly because people are done with the backpiece now – season 3 is where most of the people finished it. Also – you’re just giving opinions and can’t give any numbers – so let’s not imagine things into existence here shall we?

Ohoni.6057:

But some were making the case that the raids were drawing in tons of people, and yet the population declines seemed to increase as more and more raid content came out. Again, not saying the raids are the cause of that, just that they don’t appear to have had any positive impact either.

And they were – but not necessarily new players. A lot of people have tried raids – and many have stuck with them. There are new players coming in just for raids – but I don’t expect a HUGe influx.

You still fail to realize you have yet to provide any hard factual evidence that supports your “population decline” hypothesis.
On top of that more raid content comes out as time goes on. If there was a population decline because of other reasons ( like the content drought – discontinuation of legendary weapons, etc) that would also get worse over time – but this doesn’t mean that the two are related or that one caused the other.

You’re trying to be deliberately misleading. Stop.

Ohoni.6057:

Well, again, that’s something rather pointless to argue about, since our only options are to repeat “I disagree” using various wording. ANet has the numbers, or at least the means to gather them, they are in the best position to determine relative numbers. Scorpio’s poll is interesting though, given that within the sample group (however representative it may be), roughly twice as many people have tried raiding and decided it was not for them, or plan to raid but haven’t yet, than are currently enjoying the raids.

And here you go and ignore the fact that one huge category said haven’t but are planning to – which means you can easily look at it my way and lob them into the “raid friendly” camp.
That way roughly 2x as many players raid or plan on raiding than those that tried it and didn’t like it.

Ohoni.6057:

Well what would be stopping those people from currently enjoying raids? They are clearly interested in the raid to some degree, and if they enjoyed it then they would likely be doing it already, so it stands to reason that what would be holding them back is a gameplay experience that they don’t feel prepared for. An easier version, well executed, would be likely to engage these players. They might even then move on from that to “proper” raids, but if not they would at least be entertained.

Perhaps they are interested in raids only because they are as hard as they are now and would not be interested if the experience was changed and made “easier” as you suggest. You have no way of knowing. Perhaps your “easier version” will have the opposite effect and make them abandon raids entirely because “every baddie can do them now”.
Maybe they want to raid for the exclusive rewards and “bragging rights”.
Perhaps what’s holding them back are time constraints, lack of gear, or other real-life factors.
Stop trying to spin your narrative on these numbers.

Ohoni.6057:

Pretty easy, they were random drops form running Fractals. The odds were not in your favor though.

“Pretty easy” – except it wasn’t easy. Ask people how much work went into a full set.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, which is why people play games, because the real world kinda sucks.

And in comparison don’t you think GW2 sucks a whole lot less? Still – the same general principles apply.

Ohoni.6057:

Which is why you add the ramp, to provide alternatives.

Or you don’t – and people bother to actually get decent at rope climbing. Or if they can’t because of some physical reason just accept that rope climbing and associated benefits are not for them.

Ohoni.6057:

Mostly because in those threads raiders fully expected to get things like Legendary armor from raiding, and we knew how that would turn out. I didn’t have an issue with raids themselves, but I did have an issue with raider mentality getting its claws into the game, and it turned out I was right.

Ohoni.6057:

You’re saying you’re right. Sure. The “Raided mentality” is fine. If YOU have a problem with it it is YOUR problem.

Ohoni.6057:

Well sure, the raids were a waste of resources and it did bite them hard, but they can work to correct that by expanding to easy mode versions, so that more of the players can participate in them.

I was talking about LS season 1 – that was a waste of resources. That and the NPE+China release.

Ohoni.6057:

However many resources it would take to implement easy mode raids, it cannot possibly be as much as it takes to implement original content of equivalent scale. More content is better, but making easy mode raids is a very efficient way to deliver more content. It’s the same reason they added 50 new Fractal scales rather than adding a dozen completely new Fractals.

Yeah – and look how well that worked out for fractals.
It might be easier to scale existing content but the question is :are there enough people that care about this “rescaled version” or are you spending time catering to too few people?

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, but again, this is a game, not a punishment, and players should never feel the need to do things that they do not enjoy for significant periods of time just to get rewards that they want. You can argue that there are already places in the game where this happens, but two wrongs don’t make a right, and it is those elements that should be changed, rather than the other way around.

But this is exactly what an MMO is – you do stuff you’ve already done 1000 times in order to get the next reward. That’s why you’ve got people with THOUSANDS of hours in a game that only provides a few hundred of hours of genuinely new gameplay.
The way to get players to repeat content is through rewards.
Sometimes you dislike the content – but like the rewards. Find out which one you want more and decide.

If this game relied entirely on “fun” gameplay and not “reward-driven repeat grind” it would have been dead already.
You just can’t produce enough “fun” gameplay and content fast enough to keep people on board – at one point you’ll have to make them repeat the content. And you’ll do that by offering rewards.

Ohoni.6057:

No, it pretty much was. Once you get to 80 you can farm moas in Queensdale or tackle world bosses or whatever you like, it’s a variety of different offerings, not a progression of higher and higher difficulties.

Yeah – you can do whatever. But that doesn’t mean that you SHOULD be able to beat everything if you stopped improving.
You’re not hardcapped in trying anything – but if you’re bad you’ll die and fail.

Again, you vastly overestimate the value of climbing the rope. You’re like a minimum wage Walmart clerk that is demanding a $100K salary because you feel that the job you do is just that important. Beating the VG on hard is not worth 300 clears on easy. It’s worth maybe ten, and even that is being exceptionally generous. Your efforts are not worth anythign remotely near what you insist that they are.

Why isn’t it worth 300 pulls on easy? Because you say so? Well I’m a person too and I say IT is worth exactly 300 pulls on easy. Go ahead – it’s your opinion versus mine.

Ohoni.6057:

Through the progression of the events, the lore achievements, the layouts of the maps, it’s kind of sad that you’re so into raids and yet you’re missing all that’s around you.

Not missing all the loot I can tell you that much.
Also the reasons you give are not really explained. You can say the exact things when asked “Why do dungeons have more story than raids?” and you wouldn’t be wrong.

My solution IS to demand the game be changed. There’s no solution to be found within the existing code.

Sad.

Sure, but I still certainly wouldn’t enjoy raiding. The goal is to make it an enjoyable gaming experience, something I’d prefer to playing something else. Content that someone would be willing to do if they had a gun to their head should certainly not be the developer’s target.

I was pointing out that if you wanted the rewards bad enough you would raid.
Just accept that you don’t want legendary armor enough. It’s alright.

Nope, even if someone does honestly perceive all horses as being green, their perceptions are objectively incorrect, because “green” has a commonly understood meaning, and horses, most of them at least, do not meet that standard. If one holds your standard of subjectivity then objectivity would not exist in any form, because people could just invent their own definitions for anything and hold conversations that have no relevance to anyone else. There are many things that can be opinion, and people are entitled to those, but there are also many things that have an objective truth, and on those, there are right and wrong answers.

Yes – a “commonly understood meaning” – but you didn’t counter with a commonly understood thing – you countered with “you’re wrong” – which is just your opinion.
Where are the others that hold your opinions? YOUR opinion is not the commonly understood objective reality everyone has agreed is the norm.

But if his perception is that he believes that I believe a certain thing, and I do not in fact believe that certain thing, then it is a fact that his perception is wrong.

Except he referred to ALL players who want easy mode – not just you. You can dismiss his claims regarding yourself – but only yourself. His claim might be true for the rest of the “easy mode supporters”.

Because I’m one of those players, and I do not believe it. Now if he’d said , " some of the players that claim. . ." the he might be right, or even " most of the players that claim. . ." I would disagree with, but is still somewhat possible, but what he actually did say was “the players that claim. . .” which is factually incorrect.

You can prove that not ALL of them follow this agenda – but just that. It might very well be that the majority of them are in fact disingenuous.
Or – it could be that he is entirely right – and that you are lying about your intentions. What if that’s the case?

That’s really not a constructive response to consumer feedback.

But it is a constructive response to you.

Ohoni.6057:

but it’s not your job to police who this is the “wrong game” for. If they enjoy it then it is the “right game” for them, and if there are enough of them, then while they can’t “expect” the game to shape to their needs, it could be in ANet’s best interests to keep them happy.

Your whole argument is based on the fact that people are NOT enjoying grouping up with others. If they don’t it isn’t the right game for them. If they do it is and there’s no problem.

Ohoni.6057:

Active participation in meta events, full maps, LFG queues, active friends lists and guild lists, the same sorts of metrics we’ve been using since launch. It’s difficult to judge absolute population using those, but it’s fairly effective at judging relative populations to other periods in the game’s history.

This is skewed – because populations shift. You might have emptier maps because of the PvP season and not because people aren’t playing. Or longer queues because people have finished their backpiece and stopped playing PvP. You really can’t tell with your methods.

Ohoni.6057:

I didn’t say that it went down because of raids, correlation is not causation, I was only pointing out that it seems to have gone down in spite of raids, so if raids did increase the game’s population in any way, then it hasn’t been enough to offset losses elsewhere.

It would have gone down in spite of anything – if it indeed went down – because all MMO expansions follow this pattern. The quality of HoT contributed to this greatly.

Ohoni.6057:

Just because you say so does not make it so. Even ANet saying so would not make it so, because they can always say something different tomorrow. We can both agree that it’s intended to be challenging content, but that in no way means that they can’t make a less challenging optional version of it, nor that its rewards MUST be exclusive to it. You would like this to be the case, others would like the opposite. There is nothing that it must be.

I agree we can make a less challenging optional version (Anet can) but I can’t agree that we should make it. In fact I believe this should not be made because it would be a waste of resources.
I believe there are too few people like you – who under no circumstance would consider raiding now but would jump on it when Ez mode drops.

Ohoni.6057:

Some of them definitely were when HoT launched. They are currently a bit easier since they nerfed several areas.

I honestly think you’re joking. Do you have any idea how hard it was to get fractal weapons pre-HoT?

Ohoni.6057:

Why? Just because of spite? I think you greatly overestimate the value of being able to climb the rope.

Not spite mate – because things have to be earned. In the real world you have to be worth something if you’re going to get things.
There might be no value in climbing the rope – but if climbing the rope is the only way to get up – the value is there – at the end of the climb. If you can’t make the climb – tough luck.

Ohoni.6057:

But that doesn’t mean that it’s virtuous content that must be defended at all costs. If the moa drops were good then of course you could choose to farm them, but I also wouldn’t begrudge you appealing to ANet to balance out those rewards with other, more engaging content, so that you would not feel compelled to do content you are not enjoying just in search of the rewards. That’s what customer feedback is for.

You say this now – but we all know how well received “give us raids” threads were back when the CDIs were up.

Ohoni.6057:

If more people are fine with the current system than would prefer something different, then you would be right, but I don’t believe that to be the case. If more people would be bothered by not having access to a title than by not having access to a desired armor skin then you would be right, but I don’t believe that to be the case either. “if ‘ifs’ and ‘buts’ were candy and nuts. . .”

So why does it matter what you believe? I believe that is the case. We both believe whatever we want. Your opinion doesn’t matter and neither does mine.

Earlier you shut down somebody for stating an opinion and said “your opinion is wrong” – yet somehow we’re supposed to accept yours – when you believe this or that about the player base and argue and speculate what might be instead of just telling you off with “you’re wrong now stop posting”.

Ohoni.6057:

No, so the goal is to please the most players possible, and I don’t believe that the current system achieves that.

Again – bringing forward lots of arguments to support your claims. A few threads here and there aren’t actually evidence. There are tons of “I like raids threads”. And even if there weren’t all that you can prove is that the vocal minority that spams the forums with raid QQ isn’t happy with the current system – but you can’t really say anything about the real majority of in-game players because you have no access to metrics.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, particularly since the devs can continue to tweak it if they miss the mark, as they have already tweaked the raids a few times. Of course I’m not saying that if I don’t like the new easy mode they create, but others do, that they would have to continue tweaking it just to satisfy me, I’m just positing that if I’m not satisfied by it then likely not many others would be either, so continued tweaks would be warranted to make something that works for most players inclined to enjoy such a thing.

And I’m going to say no – because wasting developer resources was something that Anet did and it bit them back hard. LS1 and the whole LS at the beginning put them in a very bad spot. It was a gambit and it didn’t pay off – and they’ve been playing catch-up ever since. The last thing we need in this content drought is more gambles taken in order to try and please you.

To put it simply: I don’t think you and others would be enough to warrant this allocation of resources. When they could simply make MORE content for everyone else.

Ohoni.6057:

It’s not self-imposed, it’s innate. Your argument is a bit ridiculous, it’s like saying “it’s your fault that you don’t enjoy chocolate, I love chocolate, you’re just choosing to not like it.”

It is self-imposed. Because you’re a human being and a human being has willpower. You can choose to do something for a reason even if you don’t like it. If you want the reward badly enough anyway.

You might hate chocolate but for 1 million USD you’d eat as much as you could. It just proves that the raid rewards either don’t matter enough to you.

Ohoni.6057:

Which is exactly my point. You don’t have to keep getting better and better and better. If you’d like to, you can, but the content does not require it of you to advance. If you can do some of the things at level 80, the you can do all of the things at 80, for the most part.

Wow. You take what I write and understand what you want from it.
Vertical progression means progression that is tied to gear – it means getting a sword that has a +3 instead of a +2. That progression is capped in GW2.
However improving as a player doesn’t qualify as gear grind or vertical progression – it is a skill you the player develop.

GW2 was never designed to have a cap on how good you need to be and then you could just not bother getting better.
It was designed to have a level cap and a vertical gear cap so that you wouldn’t have to farm all day every day to get better gear.
Getting better as a player is an entirely different thing – and I doubt any game wants to cap its player base’s skill level.

Ohoni.6057:

The easier time is the goal, but it’s offset by forcing more repetitions. The number of repetitions required would be intended to be higher than the likely number of times a hard mode player would have to repeat it to “git gud,” and then some. It should take more time and active gameplay within the easy mode raid to clear the reward conditions than it would take, from start to finish, to both learn AND farm the hard mode version. And that’s after the hard mode version gets the head start of hard mode releasing first.

Yeah – sure – as long as it takes the easy mode players 300 pulls of easy mode VG to get 1 hard mode VG pull’s worth of rewards – I totally see where you’re going.

Ohoni.6057:

It’s not about the lines of dialog, it’s about the story conveyed. There are silent movies that convey more information than an Aaron Sorkin film.

And how exactly do raids convey more story than dungeons? Please enlighten me.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, so now that we’ve defined the problem, that raids ARE much harder and less convenient than dungeons, let’s work towards a solution.

Except it’s NOT a problem and there’s no need for a solution. If it’s a problem for you then go ahead and find yourself a solution but don’t demand the game be changed because you’re too lazy to find it.

Ohoni.6057:

No, I do want it. I just don’t want to do the current steps to earning it. Not wanting to do the current steps to earning it has absolutely zero impact on whether I want the armor itself, it just means that I’m looking for alternative methods for earning it.

Then you just don’t want it enough. If your life or the life of a loved one depended on raiding you’d be raiding with the best of them. Not wanting to do the current content means you don’t consider the armor sufficiently worth it for you to be bothered to get out of your comfort zone.
Instead you’re looking for handouts on the forum.

Ohoni.6057:

It’s really not. Tagging “in my opinion” to something doesn’t actually make it an opinion, if the statement is a statement of fact. “In my opinion, horses are all green” is not a valid opinion, it is just being wrong.
“In my opinion, raids are fine as they are” would be a valid opinion, I’d disagree but you’re entitled to it.

This might get philosophical but opinions are subjective. One might perceive all horses are green and thus from his perspective his opinion would be valid.
To dismiss an opinion you have to have access to objective unquestionable truth – but as a human being yourself you don’t have that. So – while his opinion might be “wrong” – you have no right to dismiss it – because it’s HIS perception of the situation vs YOURS. 1 on 1.

You need a bit more to be able to swing the pendulum one way or another.

Ohoni.6057:

“In my opinion the players that claim they want a story mode/easier raid in order to ‘experience the story’ are not being genuine,” is not an opinion, it’s a supposition, and it can be factually incorrect, as this one is.

Is it now? and how can you prove that it is factually incorrect? – Are you somehow inside the head of every player that claim they want a story mode and know for a fact they are all genuine in their plight and don’t just want easy rewards?

Ohoni.6057:

I am working towards something, it’s just a different thing than what you’d like.

Good luck with that. I’ll be here working against you every step of the way.

Ohoni.6057:

In my opinion the players that claim they want a story mode/easier raid in order to ‘experience the story’ are not being genuine.

Your opinion is wrong, simple as that.

And this is where the discussion ends – when people flat out state things like this you realize there can be no middle ground.

You can’t call his opinion wrong – it’s an opinion.
In MY opinion everything you say, write, claim or suggest on these forums is either wrong, misleading, sad or a combination of the above. That doesn’t mean I’m going to counter your “arguments” with “your opinion is wrong”. I’ve tried explaining, discussing and arguing.

With an attitude like that you should just be ignored.

Ohoni.6057:

If they go through many wipes then they are no longer inexperienced. The challenge is to complete it in under 30 minutes and with only one wipe using an inexperienced and randomly coordinated group, not to take that group and spend hours and a hours refining strategies and training skills.

I’ve “realized” that too, it’s no grand revelation, that’s just not something I’d rather do. You’d rather do those things, and that’s great, I’d rather ask ANet to make some changes to the game so that I (and many others) would enjoy it more. You do you, I’ll do me, and we’ll each be happy.

Maybe you’ll realize that Legendary armor is something you’d rather want more than not wanting to form a group.
Or maybe you’ll realize that Legendary armor too is something you’d rather not have.

Ohoni.6057:

How do the people that are ‘missing out on the story’ feel about dungeons? While dungeons are easier to complete, they provide barriers that are similar to those encountered when raiding. A single dungeon provides more story than all of the raid wings combined do. I suppose this isn’t a problem because you can get all the dungeon rewards by playing pvp.

I don’t think any of this is accurate information. The raid contains more information than the dungeons, And there really aren’t any barriers to entry, you can throw out an LFG, need half as many people to join you, they can be any class they want, not know the content at all, and you’ll still do just fine.

I hadn’t done much dungeoning lately because I’d burned out on them years ago, but when they added daily raids I’ve started doing a few of those. When CM was the dungeon of the day a month or so back, I queued up for path 1 with four other people who’d never done it before, and I totally forgot how to do it, and we still managed it in less than a half hour with only one wipe and a few downs. If you can manage the same with Vale Guardian then I’ll concede the point. To sum up, the challenge is:

• Clear Vale Guardian
• Using a completely random LFG party
• NONE of whom have any experience with the encounter
• with absolutely no gearchecks or class-checks, come as you are
• half hour total time limit, one wipe allowed.

Let’s see how you do. This is open to anyone, btw.

The raid contains more information than the dungeons? Really? That’s false.
If you look at just dialogue lines -there is FAR more information and lore in the dungeons than the raid.

The problem with your challenge is that raids were designed to NOT be that sort of content. The developers themselves stated at one point that they had prepared “a bucket for our tears” and that raids were never meant to be puggable.

You can do this challenge if you basically make a dungeon with a “raid theme” – and you should – but given the core concept of what raids are and represent your “raid theme” dungeon should give you no rewards.

well since we dont have only zerker or gtfo partys anymore in dungeons there are all welcome (any class combination can complete them), I would think anyone would be able to see those stories.

The reason you don’t have those anymore is because there are now FAR better farms out there. Back in the day it was dungeons or bust.

Ohoni.6057:

It really depends. People can have difficulty interacting with others and still fully enjoy the majority of the content in GW2. Most of it can be done essentially treating the other players as NPCs, IF that is how you feel comfortable playing. You really don’t need to chat or coordinate with other players to do most of the content. Now plenty of players, myself included, enjoy having conversations with people, but there shouldn’t be any stigma attached to players who are uncomfortable doing so. MMOs are great for helping to bridge social gaps, but pressuring people into it does not help.

Yes – and they are enjoying the majority of GW2 content – what they should not expect to do is enjoy ALL the content.
Nor should the developers bend over backwards to make this game more enjoyable to a category of individuals that clearly chose the wrong game if they have severe difficulty in interacting with others.

There’s no pressure – either do it or don’t. Nobody is forcing anybody. And as far as going without communicating – if you are a good player you can raid without needing comms and can just treat others like NPCs as you suggested – but you have to be good and they have to be good too.

Ohoni.6057:

And if this were three years ago, you might have a point. But raids weren’t added until just recently and the game’s got on fine without them, so it stands to reason that plenty of players could have spent the last three years enjoying how GW2 was, and not wanting the sort of “enhanced teamwork” that you insist they should have expected all along.

Never did the developers intend to have this game devoid of “teamwork”. Also there were a lot of threads on these very forums for people ASKING for “enhanced teamwork” in the form of more solid roles in combat. Do you remember those? Before raids there was a lot of talk with people asking for more clearly defined interdependent roles in GW2.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes.

Wew. Please tell. It must be had being the only one with all the answers.

Ohoni.6057:

Because they’ve only sold a few million copies, so it’s likely lower than that. I’m basing my estimate on copies sold, profit figures, general participation in the game and social media, I think it’s fair to assume that the number of relatively active players around HoT’s launch was above 100K, but likely less than three million or so.

How exactly do you gauge “general participation in the game and social media” ? Do you stand in LA and count people?

Ohoni.6057:

I think you’d have a hard time arguing that the game’s active population is as high as it was when HoT launched. How much that population has shifted, we don’t really know, but we can see the forest, even if we can’t count the trees.

No – this is speculation. You might assume and it might be a good guess but you don’t know. Also – it is a recorded phenomenon for all MMO expansions that after that exp releases the population goes up then back down again. Does that mean it went down because of raids like you initially suggested?

Ohoni.6057:

But just in your previous post you claimed that raids were supposed to be ultra-hardcore special snowflake rewards content that could never be offered through reward tracks unlike those super-casual dungeons. Which is it?

You seem to have a difficult time understanding. I’ll try to be clearer.
Raids are that ultra-hardcore high-end PvE content that should not have alternative means of reward acquisition.

Dungeons I gave as an example of the developers intending to make hardcore content ( to counter your point that they didn’t want to have hardcore content in GW2). However the developers failed miserably at this and dungeons ended up being pretty casual and easy – which in turn meant they didn’t fill the hardcore niche they were originally created for. Realizing this the developers gave alternate means to obtain dungeon rewards BECAUSE they realized their dungeons weren’t high-end hardcore PvE content that should keep its rewards locked behind the content itself.

Is it clearer?

Ohoni.6057:

Sure, and if you build a man out of straw it’s easier to attack than an actual human opponent.

Actually – my point stands. There is no reason WHY they should give out rewards to you just because they can.

Ohoni.6057:

Not yet, but they do include all the HoT map weapons and armor, which are no harder to acquire. I wouldn’t be at all shocked or displeased if those other items were added at a later date.

Are HoT maps weapons and armor harder to acquire than my previous example? No. You might think they are – but they really aren’t.

Ohoni.6057:

We’ll see what they do with The Ascension in future. I have a feeling that the “other way to earn it if you miss out this season” might not be just another PvP method. In any case, earning the Ascension takes WAY less practical ability than earning Envoy armor.

I agree – they made it too easy – but if they do put Envoy armor behind PvP – like I previously said – I believe you should be legendary AT LEAST to start trying to obtain it.

Ohoni.6057:

but there’s no such thing as “high skill rewards.” There are just rewards that, for the time being, are gated behind high skill content. Nothing says that this needs to remain the case. Gating things behind high skill only means that plenty of players will miss out, and there’s nothing positive about that.

And nothing says that this needs to change. There’s nothing negative about people missing out on things they didn’t work to attain. It’s not like the items are not there – it’s just that the players can’t be bothered to obtain them.
They are not “missing out” – they are opting out.

Ohoni.6057:

There should be alternatives. If there is a 20ft high platform, sure, you can have a rope to climb onto it, but you should also have stairs for those without the upper body strength to use the rope, and also a ramp for those without the leg strength to make it up the stairs. The ramp is a longer path around, but it would get you there eventually. Dedication can be an appropriate substitution for skill.

Ok sure – but if we’re going to give everyone a chance in spite of how unfit they are for the initial challenge those stairs and that ramp better be 10 kms long.

Ohoni.6057:

No, you’re confusing capability with enjoyment. That’s utter nonsense. I could “step up” and get better at raids, I could even eventually clear raids. That should not be confused with enjoying raids, I would NEVER enjoy raids at their current difficulty level, under any circumstances. To say that I could “just step up and enjoy raids” is equivalent to me telling you that you could “just step up and enjoy farming moas in Queensdale.” If you don’t enjoy something, you don’t enjoy it.

The silly thing here is you actually believe you need to enjoy content to play content. As I illustrated in my previous post that is NOT the case. Most MMO players don’t enjoy doing the content past a certain point – yet do it for the rewards. If you want to be stubborn and only do what you enjoy I guess you should look forward to enjoying the benefits of lack of legendary armor.

I don’t enjoy “farming moas in queensdale” – but if the drops were good and I needed the farm – I would kitten well farm them.

Ohoni.6057:

You do not deserve to make a statement if it comes at the expense of others having the armor they want.

Why ? How come YOU know what I deserve and what I don’t deserve. How come what you say is right? I say I do deserve that statement especially because OTHERS can get the armor they want if they want it badly enough to work for it.

Ohoni.6057:

If you want to make a statement without costing people armor options, that’s all well and good, but you wanting to make a statement is no excuse to deny others the armor they want. If you want a fancy title, or a nametag flair, or some non-skin method of showing off what you’re digitally swinging with, then that’s all well and good, but it’s no excuse to deny other players armor that they would enjoy having.

Again – why? Because it doesn’t sit well with you? It sits well with me and many others.
Why do you get to draw the line? Why is a title fine but a skin isn’t? Why are not both a title and skin unfair? Who exactly gives you the right to tell me what I should and should not get in this game?

Ohoni.6057:

But if there is a reasonable change they could make, that would cause you to enjoy it (and presumably many others), and that wouldn’t harm the experience for any of the existing WvW players, then maybe they should consider it. If they can add more happy players to the mode, it would be to everyone’s overall benefit.

The change WOULD harm the experience for existing WvW players just like your proposed change to raids – so I don’t consider it. You can’t please everyone all the time.

Ohoni.6057:

Clearly when I say “I would enjoy easy mode raids,” I mean “if they implemented them vaguely along the lines I’m discussing.” Obviously they could make a complete mess of them and I would not enjoy that, but from what I have seen of the raids, if they implemented that existing content, but using standard tuning techniques they’ve used on other content to reduce the challenge level, I would enjoy that experience.

But is your enjoyment worth the chance that you might be wrong? and all the developer resources to make that mode?

Ohoni.6057:

I care about your enjoyment, and I would fight for your enjoyment so long as it doesn’t come at others expense. But if you can only be happy in having something because other people do not, then I’m sorry, I cannot support that, and do not find it a justifiable equivalency to what I’m asking.

I’m not the one that is ruining others enjoyment – it is their own self-imposed incapacity that locks them out of the content and the rewards they seek.

Ohoni.6057:

You keep claiming that you’ve been playing the game this entire time, and yet somehow completely missed everything that it’s about. GW2 is not a treadmill like other MMOs, it is designed to have a relatively flat curve, that once you hit 80 you can do pretty much anything you like, and it’s almost all equivalent.

Do you want me to screencap my /age in game?
This game doesn’t mean what you want it to mean – it means something to you and something else entirely different to me. It means something to each of us. I’ve not “missed out” on what GW2 is about – simply my experience differs from yours.
You’re not the one “in the know” with me being left out. That’s just your own opinion.

GW2 was never designed to have a vertical gear-driven lock-out treadmill – it was never designed to not have a horizontal skin-driven treadmill. All MMOs have treadmills – only GW2 promised it wouldn’t have a level, gear and other vertical progression factor driven treadmill.

Nobody said that once you hit 80 “it’s all equivalent” – simply that once you hit 80 you don’t have to go VERTICAL anymore. Horizontal however is a whole new story.

Ohoni.6057:

A pure time gate is more time. A repetition gate is more time and effort. If you have ten buckets that contain five bricks each, then it would only take ten trips, over a given amount of time, to carry them 50ft away. But if you were not strong enough to lift five bricks at once, then you could remove each brick and carry each individually, and it would take you five times as many trips, and nearly five times as long, five times the effort, but it would be manageable when the initial task might not be for you. It would be easier, but it would take as much work.

Except your analogy is wrong because we’re not carrying bricks here.
Raids require coordination and concentration at a certain “threshold” level. If you can’t pass it you don’t progress – regardless of time and effort spent. When you wipe your progress is null and you try again.

Your easy mode takes that away because it makes wipes not a concern – so the effort in concentration and focus put in is much lower since the pressure of a wipe isn’t there.

They’re not only taking longer – they’re also having an easier time.

Ohoni.6057:

I do not, and will never enjoy the current raids, the challenge level they are currently set at. I would enjoy an easier version of the raid, less likely to result in a wipe. Again, I’m not asking you to understand why this is so, but you do have to accept it as a true fact. Now this leaves me with two alternatives at the moment, “raid anyway,” which I will never enjoy, or “never get Envoy armor and never experience the Forsaken Thicket content,” which I would also not enjoy. I’m asking for an alternative to either option, one that allows me to play the raid content at a lower challenge level, similar but less likely to wipe, and work towards Envoy armor as well.

Then don’t raid.
You have no idea whether or not you would enjoy an “easier raid” because no concept of it exists. What if it isn’t easy enough for you? What if it’s solo content?
What if it’s a quick time-event based thing?

Ohoni.6057:

Now this leaves me with two alternatives at the moment, “raid anyway,” which I will never enjoy, or “never get Envoy armor and never experience the Forsaken Thicket content,” which I would also not enjoy. I’m asking for an alternative to either option, one that allows me to play the raid content at a lower challenge level, similar but less likely to wipe, and work towards Envoy armor as well.

This is really easy – find out which one you would enjoy less and then make a decision. Like everybody else.
I was met with a similar decision too:

I despise crafting – and I despise HoT maps – but for the new legendary armor you have to get 6 gifts of craftsmanship – which you have to get with Provisioner tokens – which you have to craft items to trade for. And you have to do this in the HoT Maps.
So I sat there and thought – what do I want more – the armor or not to touch crafting and HoT – I answered my question and then promptly started on my way to getting my 300 tokens for my armor.

Without having to get on the forums and ask Anet for a “fun alternative for me” because I can’t handle the game.

Same goes for the necessary HoT map materials. I don’t want to farm them – I dislike the hot maps – but I did farm them. I didn’t QQ about wanting an “easier, non-HoT way of getting them” – I just got them.
Had it been too much of a problem for me to get them I would have just not gotten them -fully aware that it would have been MY decision that prevented me from getting legendary armor – and nobody’s fault but mine.

Ohoni.6057:

This is not life. This is an entertainment product. If I’m meant to “adapt and cope” with content that I do not enjoy, then I’d better be getting paid at the very least minimum wage to do it. If I’m the one paying, then I’m sorry, I’m not in the whips and chains crowd and I’m not paying for self abuse. I want to enjoy myself, and I’m providing a blueprint as to how that can be achieved.

First and foremost – adapting and coping are a universal component of human existence – you can’t wish it away just because “this is an entertainment product” – it still exists in reality and must obey the laws of that reality.

The payment you get for doing the content you don’t enjoy is the reward that you enjoy at the end of it. That’s it.
You want legendary armor? Just like I wrote above you’re going to have to do some stuff you dislike – but if you do you get the armor. If you don’t you don’t get the armor.
Is it so hard to understand?
You can’t do everything you want all the time and do only that – regardless of the fact that this is “an entertainment product”.

Ohoni.6057:

If I’m the one paying, then I’m sorry, I’m not in the whips and chains crowd and I’m not paying for self abuse. I want to enjoy myself, and I’m providing a blueprint as to how that can be achieved.

So then stop paying and move on. It’s that simple. You don’t own the game – or its development directions.
You paid for a product – if you don’t like it – tough luck. You made an informed decision when you bought it. Or maybe you didn’t. Either way – this game doesn’t have a subscription fee – you’re not being forced to continuously push money Anet’s way to keep playing.
You can stop at any time.

Ohoni.6057:

And that may work for you, but I have no interest in it. I want to just log in and have fun, I do not want to “train” to play a game.

Then expect to never reach those rewards that were put there for the people who do “train to play a game”.

This game rewards players differently based on how much they invest in it.
Look at daily log-in rewards – you log in for 30 days straight – you get 30 days worth of rewards.
You log in for 5 days – you get 5 days worth of rewards.

It’s the same thing really.
If you don’t want to play the game with others cooperatively and improve in order to beat the content designed to be beaten by the application of this process then expect not to beat it and make your peace with that.

Ohoni.6057:

And I don’t particularly care for a stellar single player experience, although this game does contain dozens of single player story chapters. But more often, people say “this is an MMO” to justify 5-10 man instance content, and that isn’t any more “an MMO” thing than single player content, that’s just party content. MMO does stand for massively mutliplayer, so if you’re going to pull “it’s an MMO so. . .” on us, then the ONLY content in the game worthy of being in an MMO would be open world bosses and Dragon Stand.

What I pointed out is that saying “I have difficulty interacting with parties and others” is not an excuse you should be hiding behind if you’re choosing to play an MMO.
When I pointed out you can have someone open a cleared instance the response was “I don’t do well with parties” – well guess what – this is AN MMO. You didn’t think you’d be going to have to interact with others to get stuff done in an MMO?

That’s my point. People have absurd expectations.

I’m not in favor of a solo version of the raids, although it would be better than nothing. My ideal would still be multiplayer, it would just be casual multiplayer, more in the general spirit of GW2, where you can group up with people, run the encounter, and largely not get in anyone’s way.

The general spirit of GW2? Like you’re the one who knows what it is. Wow.

Ohoni.6057:

Presumably hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, otherwise this game would have went the way of Wildstar. For all the preposterous whinging about “this game is too baby easy, I’m totally quitting!!!,” this game has continued to have a fairly high population for an MMO over the past three years, and has only started to slow a bit after the inclusion of raids.

You sure like pulling numbers out of your hat don’t you? why not billions?
I was unhappy with the state of the game yet I stuck with it – that doesn’t mean you can count me up as part of your “hundreds of thousands”.
Stop making things up. Especially numbers.

Ohoni.6057:

and has only started to slow a bit after the inclusion of raids.

You sure like to skew things in your favor don’t you?
You don’t think it has anything to do with HoT underdelivering massively – upsetting both casuals and hardcore players – not even delivering a lot of the advertised content on day 1 of release and cancelling legendary weapons?

I’m sure it must be the raids – not the dozen things that were utterly despised and bashed about HoT – like the poor and short story, maps on a timer, bugs, map issues and so on.

Also where do you get your “population” figures from? Do you have access to some 3rd party statistics or just your imagination?

Ohoni.6057:

This game did not have raids for three years. If you continued playing GW2 that entire time in the hopes that they would eventually get around to raiding then you have way more patience than should be expected of anyone.

Yes I do – your point?
I kept playing hoping for hardcore content – Raids, elite areas -whatever you want to call it. Many did the same – many have come back because of this. If I were you I’d be all up saying “hundreds of millions have come back because of raids”. Because making things up is fun.

Ohoni.6057:

But that argument could also be applied to raids. If the developers had wanted raids, we would have had them at launch. The same applies to any number of features added to or removed from the game over time. All of these features were things that “the developers didn’t want to be a thing. . . until they did.”

If you actually bothered to do your research you’d find out that the developers had always intended to have hardcore content in the game – something akin to raids. It was just that they were incapable of making it happen and grossly underestimated their good players while balancing these encounters against “everyone else in the middle”.
That’s why high-level fractals and explorable dungeons – which were intended to fill that raid niche at least partly were such a failure at being hardcore content.

Look this stuff up – it’s out there for your to learn. Story mode dungeons were supposed to be the “easy mode” while explorable was supposed to be hard.

This game was never designed to be without hardcore content – it was just the developers’ incapacity to implement it properly that meant we had to wait 3 years.

Ohoni.6057:

Exactly my point. So there’s absolutely nothing stopping them from also arbitrarily linking the same rewards to OTHER content, as they arbitrarily linked dungeon and HoT map rewards to PvP and WvW reward tracks, or linked previous LW event rewards to Laurel vendors, or taken previously drop-only Precursors and opened crafting tracks, or various other places where they have taken items previously earned one way, and opened up new avenues to earn them.

Except the fact that just because they CAN do it doesn’t mean they SHOULD do it. They can do ANYTHING with the game – give everyone 1000 gold, precursors, whatnot.
I was pointing out that just because you don’t see a reason why rewards should stay locked and linked to raids doesn’t mean they should un-link them – even if the link between THOSE rewards and raids is arbitrary.

Ohoni.6057:

Sometimes people who like raids insist that dungeons were originally intended to be as difficult as raids, but they just never turned out that way. I’m not sure about that, but it’s irrelevant, if dungeons are so accessible then PvPers could do them too, they wouldn’t need reward tracks. But alternative methods are good, because they allow people to play how they want and still work towards the rewards they want. I still hope that they add PvE reward tracks soon.

I’ve explained this before – dungeons were designed with the idea of having two modes – story and explorable. Story was supposed to be easy. Explorable was supposed to be harder – I doubt they were looking for raid-tier difficulty BUT they did intend for it to be hardcore content.
The problem was they were incapable of implementing it right – mostly because of their “everyone is welcome” all-inclusive attitude which meant trying to balance against really really bad players.

The PvP reward tracks were added because PvE and PvP skins were merged. That meant that playing PvE all day you could unlock PvP skins but not the other way around.
Still – these are NOT prestiege skins or “higher-end” PvE skins that were added.
Do you see FOTM weapons in a PvP track? Or the legendary FOTM backpiece? Or Teq weapons?

High and Higher-end PvE skins remain exclusive to PvE – just like the exclusive PvP backpiece and armor remains exclusive to PvP.

Get the picture?

Ohoni.6057:

But alternative methods are good, because they allow people to play how they want and still work towards the rewards they want. I still hope that they add PvE reward tracks soon.

I partially agree with this – people should play how they want BUT at a high skill level for high skill rewards.

If you want Raid items from PvP – considering raids are top-tier PVE content – you should be at least legendary or higher in PvP to be able to obtain such items.

Is it an alternate means of obtaining? Sure. But it should require just as much skill and dedication

Ohoni.6057:

But you have to understand that this is not an equivalent position. You are happy with what you have now. Nobody is suggesting taking anything away from you. Other people are not happy with what we have now. Our receiving what we want is not harming you in any way. You don’t have any justification to demand that we not get what we want.

Yes – yes you are. Those that are not happy now were happy before. Now the wheel turns -but the sad thing is this.
Before hardcore players HAD no hardcore content – regardless of what we did there was no way of adapting in any way to fill that need.

Right now casual players CAN if they so choose to improve and step up to enjoy raids.

You keep trying to weasel the “our receiving what we want does not harm you” but it does. It does because it devalues our rewards.

The items I have from raids are a STATEMENT – they look cool and tell something about my skill, dedication and willingness to commit to this game and to my raid team.
If others get them easier – that statement is eroded and disappears. And that is taking something away from me.

There above is my justification. Rarity matters – statements matter. And I wouldn’t even care as much about rarity – I wouldn’t mind if everyone had the raid loot that I have provided they had the skill and dedication and put in just as much work as me to get them – because if they did that means they earned them. Just like me – so the statement that loot makes about me – and all the others remains valid and true.

Ohoni.6057:

It’s a game, and everyone wants to enjoy the game. If I tell you that I would never enjoy playing the existing raids, then you just have to accept that this is true, and that there is nothing either of us could possibly do about that. If I tell you that I would enjoy easy mode raids then you also just have to accept that this is true and unalterable. Your only choice in the matter is whether you care that I enjoy the game mode or not. There is nothing about this issue that either of us has any capacity to “solve,” only ANet can choose to solve it.

The problem is this. If I tell you that I don’t enjoy the WvW formata under its current form that’s true and unalterable. But I understand others do – and I’m not going to ask for a change because I want to be “special” and need to be catered to.

Also when you tell me you can’t enjoy raids currently I won’t accept that as completely set is stone.
Alternatively I don’t believe you have any right to make strong statements like

I would enjoy easy mode raids then you also just have to accept that this is true and unalterable.

because no such mode exists and you have no idea what it would be like. You’re either desperate to make your point or lying. You can’t enjoy something that doesn’t exist and has not set form or format.

Ohoni.6057:

Your only choice in the matter is whether you care that I enjoy the game mode or not. There is nothing about this issue that either of us has any capacity to “solve,” only ANet can choose to solve it.

I don’t care. And that’s because you can enjoy the game without raids – just like I enjoyed the game for 3 years without any real “hardcore content”. If I could do it – so can you.
And if you can’t – tough luck.
Also – you don’t care about how I enjoy the game – yet somehow expect me to care about your enjoyment – even if it means giving up mine.

Ohoni.6057:

I don’t recall any discussion of hard mode raids, but I don’t see what the problem would be so long as you weren’t asking for exclusive shineys for completing it. I don’t see how giving people content they want is at all an issue, so long as it does not block off any content or rewards from anyone.

There were discussions of hardcore dungeon modes – with associated higher rewards and more exclusive rewards.

You just don’t really get that this “blocking” is normal and natural. People’s options for obtaining things expand and open up as their knowledge and skill in the game grow. As they become more dedicated and competent. It’s called improving and progressing. And this concept of progression is at the core of every MMO game out there – including GW2.

Ohoni.6057:

Which wouldn’t be an issue IF there was a valid alternative. Right now the existence of raids IS a problem for lots of players because it DOES lock out content and rewards. If raids did not exist at all then Legendary armor would be awarded through some other mechanism, and the story content and environments of the raids would have appeared in a more digestible form. An easy mode raid would cover those concerns though.

Except the story of the raid IS out in a more digestible form – it is called a cleared instance.
And this discussion was started about that issue – not legendary armor.

Ohoni.6057:

Nobody is suggesting that you wouldn’t have to play the game. The alternatives suggested would take more work than the current methods, they would just be less challenging and/or have more varieties of experiences. They would still provide motivation to play the game, they would just be providing it to players who aren’t currently motivated by the existing raids.

Except this is the first time you’ve mentioned it would take more work. And it wouldn’t. It would take more time – it would take less effort but more time.
Or the same amount of time – depending on how you look at it. Because it took a lot of wipes to get to clear current raids consistently – while your “easy mode” could probably be beaten without wipes or difficulty.

Ohoni.6057:

Anyone who starts an argument with “this is an MMO” has already lost it. MMOs are anything to everyone. There is no right or wrong to an MMO. If someone says that they want something, "this is an MMO is never an valid reason why they should not have it. Specifically to GW2, GW2 never had 10-man premade content before this, and players were happy with that for three years. To say that they should be happy with it now because “this is an MMO” is a bit ridiculous.

You’re wrong. By definition it’s an MMO – massive multiplayer – it’s not supposed to deliver a stellar single-player experience. Or to put it in another way – it’s not designed around the concept of catering to people that want to go at it solo. There are a lot of things that MMOs might mean to people – but this is a core concept of any MMO.
It is NOT a single-player experience.

I didn’t say that it’s an MMO in a generic way – the MMO nature specifically explains why he can’t have a strong single-player experience – there’s no dev incentive to push resources in that direction. There are already STELLAR single-player games out there that Anet just can’t compete with.

Also – what players were happy with that for 3 years? You?

So that people who don’t want to raid, but do want that particular reward, will have some alternate method of earning it.

But that’s not what should happen – the developers didn’t want this to be a thing. Otherwise this would be a thing already. Raids are for raiders – and so are RAID rewards.
If you want the lore – go ahead – there are many means to get them – but without putting in the time and effort then you shouldn’t get the rewards regardless of how much you want them – because at the end of they day you don’t want them enough.

Ohoni.6057:

But they aren’t really “raid rewards,” there’s nothing inherently “raidy” about someone wearing Experimental armor.

There’s nothing inherently “anythingy” about any reward in this game – it’s arbitrary. Some skins got arbitrarily linked to WvW, others to PvP, others to areas of PvE. Some skins are now linked to Raids.

Ohoni.6057:

They chose to put the armor into raids, they can just as easily make them available someplace else, just as they chose to put dungeon armor in dungeons, but then later also into PvP tracks.

There’s a distinct difference between these – dungeons were meant to be much more accessible than raids. Raids aren’t supposed to be easy and easily accessible – and neither are the rewards.

Ohoni.6057:

For the time being, and many of us are saying that in the future we’d like something different.

And me and many others are saying we’d like things to stay the same.

Ohoni.6057:

ANet wants to keep players happy. If ANet removing those subjective barriers would make those players happy, it would be well worth the effort.

Except you don’t know that – you’re just saying things that make you feel better. But there’s no real proof that they even CAN do that. Or that it would be worth their time and effort. Or that it would even work.

People should look to themselves to solve THEIR OWN issues – not the developers. In 2016 everyone needs handsholding now don’t they?

Ohoni.6057:

So again, it would make you happy to keep other players sad. I’m not sure why ANet would want to honor that. Raiding is something that makes you happy, and you got it. I’m not trying to take that away from you. An easy mode raid is something that would make me happy, I don’t understand why you feel it would be just to stand in the way of that.

It wouldn’t make me happy or sad or anything. I don’t care what others do – they chose to make themselves sad because they refuse to change, adapt, improve or strive for something.
Instead they flood the forums with cries of “pls Anet give me give me”. I just don’t want things devalued because people are asking for handouts for something that is perfectly attainable if you are willing to attain it.

It’s not me making them sad – but rather their own incapacity to overcome their self-imposed limitations.

Ohoni.6057:

Raiding is something that makes you happy, and you got it. I’m not trying to take that away from you. An easy mode raid is something that would make me happy, I don’t understand why you feel it would be just to stand in the way of that.

Because an easy mode to raids makes ME unhappy – the same way a hard mode to dungeons was what made “casuals” unhappy every time me or others suggested it.
The same way Raids make some “casuals” unhappy to the point they flood the forums with “abandon raids” and “kill the elitist 1%”.

An easy mode to raids WITH easy loot is what is going to devalue the meaning behind the raid gear we currently have. Some raid items ACTUALLY MEAN SOMETHING right now. They mean you’re either of a certain skill level or at least very rich.
With “ezPzlemonsqueezy” mode that will all go away.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, and the solution to that problem would be to no longer require that.

My problem is that I have to play and work towards legendary armor – but by your logic I can just spam the forums with QQ and as you put it " the solution to that problem would be to no longer require that".

If you can have things handed out to you – why not me? Why not everyone? Why should we have to play the game when Anet can make it so that it’s no longer required – right?

Ohoni.6057:

Because some enjoy it while others do not. Everyone should be able to play how they enjoy.

And what’s keeping you from playing how you enjoy? What If I enjoy playing WvW but nobody on my server does – shouldn’t Anet make it so that I can solo zergs by myself? Because that’s what I enjoy?

If you enjoy raiding – then raid.
If you don’t enjoy raiding – don’t raid. It is that simple. How is anyone forcing you to do something you don’t enjoy?

Ohoni.6057:

If there were not practical difficulties involved then we would not be having this conversation. Just because you can find a group that works for you does not mean that it works for everyone.

It boggles my mind that you’re like this. Everything in life has “practical difficulties”. Get it? Everything.
Humans are built do ADAPT and COPE with difficulty- meeting it and overcoming it through trial, effort and personal improvement.
Do you think that “I can find a group that works for me” easily? No – I couldn’t. But I found a group because I tried and worked towards it. Why can’t others? Why can I and not others? What’s holding them back except their own reluctance to do it instead of asking to be taken along and having their problems fixed by others?

Ohoni.6057:

Just accept that it does not work for everyone and move on with the discussion understanding that.

Just accept that it’s EVERYONE’s individual task to find what works for them. And if they can find a solution than they’ll get their problem fixed. And if they can’t then they can’t and they won’t be able to raid. IT’s that simple.
If you can make the cut you make the cut and if you can’t you can’t. Nobody is special.

Just accept this and move on with the discussion after you’ve understood it.

So you would agree that a bit more goes into it than “If you want a ‘non-toxic’ raiding environment all you have to do is get nine friends.”

This is complete BS.
The first static I was with I didn’t even know that well until we started raiding- most of us met there for the first time and didn’t know each other beforehand – we became friends as we raided together and banded together closely because of the experience.

But then again – we were all there to improve, learn and not leech off one another. We came in with a constructive attitude of “we’re bad – let’s get good together” – and we were in game practicing – not whining on the forums.

Ohoni.6057:

If you want a ‘non-toxic’ raiding environment all you have to do is get nine friends.

Just friends you’re prepared to lose.

Really? Then those aren’t really your friends are they?

My first core group started from scratch – we had one guy who knew most of the stuff that we had to do and he taught us. We stuck together – even though we each wiped the group several times with our mistakes. Everyone knew – but we stuck together – improved and became a good team that cleared fast and consistent.

If your friends aren’t willing to do this and you’ll “lose them” because of a few wipes – I suggest finding better “friends”.

Ohoni.6057:

but I believe most players struggle with finding 9 other people to raid with, and I’m not sure easy mode would make it happen.

I believe it would work out. The problem with the current raids is not “finding 9 other people.” It’s “finding 9 other people who:”

• all know what they’re doing at least as well as you do.
• each fit a fairly specific necessary role, and do that job well
• will stick around long enough to get through the content, or learn along with you.

You need to form relatively stable long term groups, you need to trust other members, because the content is challenging enough that anything less is a waste of everyone’s time.

If they made an adequate easy mode, then “finding 9 other people” is as simple as opening LFG and accepting the first 9 people who show up. Chances are that most of them will be good enough and geared enough to get the job done. You don’t need to organize the same group night after night, because replacement members are likely to be just as useful as the ones who left.

You don’t need organized long term groups to run standard dungeons, not unless that’s how you want to play it, you just LFG and grab four other people. The only difference between that an an easy mode raid would be that it would grab another five people, which might take about twice as long (although likely less than that, since “new hotness” raids are in higher demand than “vanilla” dungeons), but shouldn’t take anywhere near as long as trying to organize a current raid party from scratch that stands any chance of passing it.

The problem is that you’re not willing to put in the dedication and time to find 9 others and then train together and improve together. Like everyone else did.

Why should some do this and others be handed out easier ways?
Why is it so hard to form a static?

Ohoni.6057:

there is no barrier for going into raids…if u beat them, thats another point, but raids per se have no barrier.

You can keep saying that all you like, but you aren’t going to convince anyone who didn’t already believe that. If people believe that barriers exist which limit their ability to participate in raids, then just accept that this is a true fact, from their perspective. Then decide whether you care or not, that is the choice that is available to you, not whether the barrier exists for them or not.

anet said that raids are the hard content, which normally shouldn’t even be puggable.

Yes they did, and many of us are saying that we don’t like that, at least not as the only option for experiencing the raids, so we would like other options to be offered, even if that’s not how ANet originally intended it. ANet had changed numerous things since launch from how they were originally intended, we would like this to be one such element.

and yes, there are people wich waited for 3 years for harder content, yes we are not the majority, still we don’t want to see any lighter stuff in these areas. there is tons of openworld stuff, if you want to experience raiding, do it as we did it, if you dont want to…don’t raid.

And just because you don’t want to see lighter stuff doesn’t mean that it should not be added for those that do, just as just because we didn’t want harder stuff, didn’t mean that they shouldn’t have added it for people like you.

Their subjective barriers are THEIR Problem to overcome – not Anet’s and not mine or other players’.

The fact that players CAN raid proves that it can be done – whether or not certain individuals can or cannot raid is a problem that is their to manage by themselves.

Yes they did, and many of us are saying that we don’t like that, at least not as the only option for experiencing the raids, so we would like other options to be offered, even if that’s not how ANet originally intended it. ANet had changed numerous things since launch from how they were originally intended, we would like this to be one such element.

Oh – you don’t like that Anet made a choice that doesn’t cater to you? So sad.
I didn’t like that for the first 3 years of its life GW2 catered only to really really bad casual players. And I had to suck it up. Now they’re not only catering to that demographic – I dealt with it – I’m sure you’ll find a way to deal with it too.
I would like this to NOT be one such element – and I’ll put my money down to back up my claims too. I suggest others do the same.

GreyWolf.8670:

Sykper.6583:

GreyWolf.8670:

Sykper.6583:

GreyWolf.8670:

RoRo.8270:

Raids were advertised as challenging content. Not sure why players feel they need to be catered and have access to everything

Are you ok with the raids not being included in the price of the expansion and you can pay for them separately, then?

They came as part of the package. Don’t know why anyone would want less content for the same price, much like how you get a new TV and they give you extra video cables you don’t need, but might as well have. You can’t ask to get those cables to get taken out of the package. Although you could personally toss them out when you get home, but other customers who get that same TV might want or need them.

“Don’t know why anyone would want less content for the same price…”

This is exactly my point. Everyone paid for the raid and everyone has access to it.

Fixed that mistake there, you almost implied there was some literal barrier for entry. Anyone can create a raid and go in. Anyone can go into a cleared instance and map out everything, this isn’t a difficult concept.

An empty instance is not playable content. I assume you’d be ok with them clearing out the entire raid zone and you’d be happy just wandering around in an empty room, too?

Wait – didn’t this discussion start on the premise that people wanted the lore? The lore is ALL there – in the cleared instance.