Guild Wars 2

IndigoSundown.5419:

Sociologically speaking, what we see in the whole exclusion/inclusion debate that makes the meter such a charged issue is that we have different groups with different values and different expectations. The problem comes when people whose play preferences are for a “one big happy family” group which also suits their desires for convenience (call them the A’s) encounter a different community with shared experiences which fuel shared desires for a specific type of play (the B’s). Essentially, the B’s desires can be hindered if the A’s assume that the B’s are like them, whereas the fulfillment of the A’s desires require the B’s to act like A’s. Needless to say, this is a recipe for conflict, regardless of the rudeness of lack thereof by members of either group.

Of course, A’s and B’s are not the only groups. There is a third group (the C’s) who prefer a laissez-faire approach similar to that espoused by A’s, but do not share the A’s desires to elevate convenience over that laissez-faire approach. However, there is a fourth group which creates conflict for the C’s. This comes in the form of fringe B’s (call them the D’s), also driven by convenience, who try to join the C’s and then change the C’s groups into the D’s idea of what a B group should be.

From the perspective of being responsible for one’s own experience, the C’s have recognized that A’s and B’s (or A’s and C’s) should not play together. C’s are generally going to welcome A’s because they have shared values, which means that A’s are unlikely to interfere with the C’s desires. Whether C’s are also driven by a “nice guy” fixation is largely irrelevant, although some certainly are.

B’s also take responsibility for their own experience by attempting to limit their groups to members of their sub-community. It’s this behavior, which is objected to mostly by A’s, which is most controversial. While some may dislike the way they go about it, these people are by and large attempting to build their own community. That their community is antithetical to that of the A’s, while perhaps too bad, is a natural outgrowth of the different desires of the two coupled with the unwillingness of the A’s to avoid groups whose attitudes and behavior they demonize.

A’s and D’s are generally not taking responsibility for what they want. If an A does take responsibility, he becomes a C, and tries to avoid the A’s. D’s? They are no more socially responsible than A’s and are also likely to engage in things like kicking C’s from their own groups, which is not a depth to which A’s go. D’s are the real kittens.

This is incredibly spot on and one of the best post written in this thread for sure.
As I’ve tried to explain before – it does boil down to the issue of personal responsibility and trying to find a place where you can enjoy the game and do your own thing with people that are the same as you are.

In a sense that’s building community I guess.
If there’s something I really enjoy in this game is playing it with people that are very similar to myself. If there’s something I hate is playing with people that are very different from myself.

The problem as I see it based on your analysis is that the A’s use the existence of the D’s to justify the fact that – as another brave poster said earlier – the rights of B’s are less than the rights of A’s and their enjoyment and capacity to have fun “matters less”.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

maddoctor.2738:

If I just put T4 dailies it’s assumed that I want to do the freaking dailies, not teach them. There is no need for “no newbies”, if I wanted to teach I’d put a “T4 daily training” instead.
When you want to train look for the word “training” in a listing, there were loads when the new Fractal was released because nobody had experience with it anyway.

It’s a reasonable point of view, but I wonder: how much more difficult would it be for you to add a few words? “T4 dailies, experienced only” tells me that it’s a group that cares how well people know the mechanics, whereas “T4 dailies” leaves it open to interpretation.

And we know that other people frequently interpret things differently from how we meant them (I don’t think we need any evidence beyond this entire thread).

The sad part is that you can write “exp only” and “meta comp, meta strats, no bads” and still get non-meta, non-optimal strat bads.
People don’t read. Don’t care what the LFG says and then get kicked. Then they go onto the forum and complain having no idea why they were kicked.

cadmiumgreen.8712:

Deepcuts.9740:

You really have problems understanding english.
The poor soul said he just wants to have fun in game because he has enough problems in RL, managing his company.

And what we’ve seen in this thread over and over is different people bring with them different ideas of fun, different expectations of those they group with, and different goals. Harper seems to like his games when treated as srsbsns. Not really anything fundamentally wrong with that or Astralporing just wanting to relax in game.

The only problem is that when you want to play differently than the “it’s just a game relax and have fun (our way)” crowd you automatically become the devil.

Astralporing.1957:

Harper.4173:

I feel you – keep fighting that good fight running your company.

See, that’s the problem right here. This is not work or business. It’s a game – an entertainment.

Some people seem to really keep forgetting about it and think that everyone should treat it really seriously, as if it were a second job.

Different people are entertained in different ways. Your fun is not everybody else’s fun.
And if you want to hear something a little more odd or tragic I once knew a guy who at the launch of GW2 would make an account, deck it out, maybe build it a legendary and then sell it off.
He did this because of a disability and because it paid slightly more than most jobs he could hold.
He really had to get things done fast because it was literally putting food on his table.
It might sound odd or absurd but it was his way of making his way in the world.

Also – you have to consider that I might actually want to treat it as a second job. Maybe your life is stressful and you seek solace in a game for the purpose of relaxation.
Maybe someone else’s life is so stress-free that they seek structure and stress in a game.

Tiresias.6473:

Look at the Internet Tough Guys in this thread.

“If you aren’t performing we are going to kick you out of the group!”

Good. Spare me the trouble of putting up with you. I deal with enough stress running my company; I don’t need any gruff from emotionally-stunted teenagers when I’m trying to relax and play a video game

I feel you – keep fighting that good fight running your company. I will keep my gruff away from you even though I’m neither emotionally-stunted nor a teenager.

GreyWolf.8670:

That is basically what “sociopath” means. Why are you being so hostile towards everyone?

The DSM-5 defines antisocial personality disorder as "[a] pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:

Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors, as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.
Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure.
Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.
Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults.
Reckless disregard for safety of self or others.
Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.
Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another."

I don’t see where it says or where it implies that one of the traits is “caring more for yourself than for another person”.
Because that’s not sociopathy.
Also I don’t really see how any of the above could apply to a video game or how one could quantify that while one player kicked another he was not overwhelmed with a sense of remorse.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Harper.4173:

What you’re stating is absurd.
You’re saying people will kick you because of low dps while you’re sacrificing your dps to take the burden off mechanics.
Honestly no good group will do this.

Well, my good man, my concern is not with “good groups”. It is with bad groups who think themselves to be good. Probably one of my favorite lines that I’ve heard doing casual t4s is “OMG I can’t believe the scrapper has the highest DPS”. This group didn’t advertise meters. The player simply had it on them and was watching it intently.

Harper.4173:

In the second case your issue is not dps meters but the quality of the people you’ve associated with and no removal of dps meters will change that.

It will. The thing is, discriminating against players for AP or LI or having titles is both silly, and highly visual. You can avoid groups which do this easily, and also discourage them from doing this by publicly pointing out the flaws of their reasoning. But DPS meters are invisible and never advertised. I cannot see the group which has somebody hovering over a DPS meter with a chip on their shoulder. It just happens. Thankfully, I’ve never been kicked, but I have seen other players get kicked for it, so my fears are not unfounded.

Well my good man, unfortunately for you – bad groups that consider themselves good will kick regardless of dps or performance.
And I would say that if you’re in such a group and actively staying there despite seeing that they’re like that – you’re partially to blame for getting kicked.
I know what type of groups you mean – why would you stick around?

It will. The thing is, discriminating against players for AP or LI or having titles is both silly, and highly visual.

Oh so you’re afraid they’re going to surprise-dps-meter kick you instead of just kicking you and saying “noob”. They don’t need a meter- I’ve been in groups like this – if they have no idea who the lowest dps is because no meter they’ll just kick the class that’s not “meta” enough.
If they have a full meta comp they’ll kick the one person who either went down last run OR they’ll go for the person who’s muted in voice chat and unable to defend themselves when someone says something against them.
These groups WILL kick someone.

You can avoid groups which do this easily, and also discourage them from doing this by publicly pointing out the flaws of their reasoning.

I’m certain in-game half-bad half-elitist pugs have been thoroughly discouraged by your exposure of their flaws of reasoning.
No – they’ve blocked you and moved on.

But DPS meters are invisible and never advertised.

The silent killer, the ever watching eye – eternally awake, infinite in their measuring of men and gods alike – the dps meters reign supreme above all creation.

I cannot see the group which has somebody hovering over a DPS meter with a chip on their shoulder. It just happens. Thankfully, I’ve never been kicked, but I have seen other players get kicked for it, so my fears are not unfounded.

And I’ve seen people go afk in groups before killing ONE mob and returning only after the rewards were given out simply because the others wouldn’t kick.
So my fears are not unfounded either.

Like it or not – it looks like DPS meters are here to stay.
That being said I’m not opposed to going back to a more savage and barbarous age where we kicked based on who we thought was the problem, who went down the most or who didn’t have voice comms.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

This is blatantly not true. I have been on groups where I have given advice to players, and seen their performance increase drastically because of it.

Are you honestly taking what I write and then pretending I wrote something else? I said " No amount of negotiation or forgiveness will teach you core mechanics or give you the proper gear."

Which is true. I did not write “advice” – I wrote negotiation or forgiveness. These do not add gear to a person’s inventory nor do they teach core mechanics.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Being that this is a multiplayer game without a tutorial, you are the tutorial system of the game.

Really? And who decided that? Because I don’t remember receiving any messages from the developer team instructing me “You are the tutorial system of the game – godspeed Harper”.

You like to make a broad statement – I will also partake in this art.
“Being that this is a multiplayer game without a tutorial, the game does not have a tutorial.”
You have no right to shift responsibility for a tutorial from the game/developers to me.

Not everybody who plays the game has been playing for years, and no matter how old the content is it will be new to somebody.

It is also good practice when attempting something new to perhaps look into it before trying to join people that have been doing it for a while or let people know you’re new so they know who they’re working with.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The best part is, this works out better than kicking, because I have increased the overall performance power of the community permanently. Kicking would’ve let it be stagnant and bred more hostility.

You have no certainty of this – but it must be more comfortable to think this way.
I too like to pat myself on the back from time to time in situations where I don’t definitively know if I did or not make an impact.

I too can speculate that kicking a player – a rather “aggressive action” has motivated him to research the encounter and build the proper gear – emboldened him to be greater so that in the future he does not get kicked.

Perhaps your advice helped your player – but only a little – and since that was enough to clear the encounter he never really did any more thus never unlocking his true potential. If this is the case we could say you did him a disservice.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

This is utter BS. Every word you have written is dripping with condescension, and you have taken the position that everybody who doesn’t submit refuses out of a character flaw. You have called casuals selfish, irresponsible, undeserving, cowardly, and emotionally frail.

Are you going to argue that a person that knows he’s not contributing enough but still stays for the rewards isn’t selfish? Or that he’s deserving of those rewards even if others get them for him?
Or are you going to say that a person who’s afraidof the consequences of their choices and wants to do all in his power to avoid them is not cowardly?
Finally – if getting kicked from a group in a game is so hurtful that you just can’t bear it and have to complain on the forums – is that not the sign of some emotional frailty?
It might be because we grew up in different parts of the world – but where I’m from that’s not really something that people consider “a problem”.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Use an iota of logic here. If your desires are selfish and you admit this, then you should expect to be demonized for them.

Are you genuinely not making fun of me? All humans are selfish and almost all humans put themselves above others in most situations.
You’re not demonizing me – you’re demonizing what it means to be a human being.
I’ve touched on this above. I won’t repeat it here.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Every single argument you make is disingenuous now.

Because I’ve admitted that I’m selfish? At least I’m not hypocritical. All humans care more about themselves than they do others. If this wasn’t true you wouldn’t have war, conflict, strife and all the other things that humans have.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Others aren’t, and you should respect that.

Respect is earned and not given freely – at least that’s how it is where I live. I won’t respect someone just because they want to be respected.
If respect was given freely it would have no meaning.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

It is only the selfish mind that sees sub-optimal performance as causing “suffering”. Other people do not see it this way or feel this way, and you are demanding the world kneel to your madness. It doesn’t work like that. Again, this mindset is warped. Because you have made arrangements to live within an unfair system doesn’t make it fair. It is like a thief that feels justified in stealing other peoples valuables because they’ve hid their own and would blame themselves if their own hidden valuables were taken.

Except you’re once again wrong. If you wipe on VG for one hour and every wipe is caused by me then I am the cause of suffering for that party.
Have you been with a raid group that wipes time and time and time again on a boss? Have you been with them on comms? It’s a miserable experience. They are suffering – not horribly – but suffering.
Nobody has fun doing a raid boss or fractal 10 times over only to fail at the very end. Especially if you have to do it over and over.
You stating other people don’t see it this way is simply you pushing your viewpoint as the truth and mine as “madness” but nothing more really.
To assume that other players DO NOT MIND having their success and progress taken away because of my performance and actions is the same kind of madness you accuse me from – but at the other side of the spectrum.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Because you have made arrangements to live within an unfair system doesn’t make it fair.

Accepting that sometimes YOU are the problem and the cause of failure is not an “unfair system” – it’s the truth. Sometimes YOU are the cause of what’s wrong with a run or a group or a boss kill. You have to take responsibility for that.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

It is like a thief that feels justified in stealing other peoples valuables because they’ve hid their own and would blame themselves if their own hidden valuables were taken.

How does this compare to what I said? When have I “hidden” my failures?
I feel justified to call out and kick people for doing badly and accept that they do the same to me. Where exactly is the “me hiding my failure” part come in?
You’re sneaky – but I’m not that blind. Twisting my words won’t work.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

No, it doesn’t work like that. A player doesn’t “slow you down”, because you are not entitled to speed. In fact, you’re not even entitled to a group, let alone an elite group.

I love your rhetoric – “It doesn’t work like that” – why? Because you say so?
I’m entitled to my goals in game. If I state my goals and people join despite not having those goals I’m going to protect my group and kick them.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

You do not innately have speed which other people rob you of.

So you’re saying the situation where a 4-man group would clear something in let’s say 5 minutes but doesn’t because their 5th man is aggroing everything and adding additional burdens isn’t real?
It’s the very definition of “the group was doing better without you and would’ve cleared faster” – that’s “innate speed” that the 5th person is robbing.

I’m going to ask you a simple question.
Am I allowed to have MY own goals in game – that are separate from another player’s goals? Because I have a feeling your answer is no.

My belief is that the answer is yes – and I also believe that it is common human courtesy that if I state my goals and yours and mine don’t align (or are contrary to one another) it is best that we don’t associate. If indeed you desire to forcibly associate with me despite the fact that we do not share common goals I have a right to “defend” myself and remove you from my group.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Any issue that deals with the expectations and demands put upon a person is an interpersonal problem, for it involves two people: You, and the other unnamed person. Other players are not tools with varying levels of insolence.

By this definition EVERYTHING is an interpersonal problem.
If they’re not tools then neither am I. If they want to play with me and I don’t want to play with them I’m not going to just do it because they want/expect me to.

On the contrary, elitism demands that everyone plays the same way, and puts stringent demands on other players. An elitist assumes that other players owe them an excessive level of performance. The elitist has invented concepts like “carry” and “leeching” to legitimize their entitlement, to demonizing the standard player and uplifting themselves to be righteous. Merely playing the game is considered a gift to the other players, but they demand recompense for their ways. Because of these destructive trends, the elitists wants and needs are less important to consider. The elitist demands everyone tries as hard as they can for their sake, where the casual doesn’t.

Except I never remember forcing anyone into my elitist parties. I don’t remember telling them to join and then pushing for my play style.
I assume people are capable of reading the LFG requirements and actually joining ONLY if they meet those requirements.
And I don’t understand why they’d join if they don’t.

It’s almost funny – you actually believe leeching or carrying aren’t real? You actually believe “leech players” don’t exist?
They do. In those parties where super nice players strive to get along and be all inclusive I’ve often seen the “brb door” only to come back when the boss is up or already dead.
Now you might think that it was just a case of “brb door” but the sad truth is that there was no door – there was only alt-tab.

Because of these destructive trends, the elitists wants and needs are less important to consider.

There we have it – the “we’re better than you” – “you’re less important” because you’re not like us.
You’re destructive. You’re evil.

I really like you.
First you take something that does exist – like leeching – and say it doesn’t exist. Even though you have no way of proving that. And you have no way of proving that because it can’t be proven. You take your own statement as fact and then hold the fact that we mention leeching as a testimony to our nature as “destructive”.
Afterwards – since we’re “destructive” you relegate us as a “lower caste” who’s needs are “less important”
Bravo – That was really smooth.

That leeching is true can be proven – I can easily go leech a run and provided people are sufficiently permissive and tolerant I’ll get away with it too. I’ll get the reward solely through the work of the other players adding none of my own.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Harper.4173:

Second of all you have feelings – sure – (although personally I don’t particularly care about them nor am I obligated to do so) there’s the issue of their feelings as well.
You have feelings that get hurt if you get kicked or told you’re bad?
Well guess what – I have feelings that get hurt and a play experience that is ruined if I have to play with a bad player that’s not bothering to pull his weight and wants to leech off my run.
When did your feelings become more important than mine?

Therein lies the problem: caring about peoples feelings is something that normal people do. There’s a reason why we call people who don’t care about other’s feelings a sociopath. Other players are not tools with varying degrees of insolence. You’re going to spend endless hours arguing with people on this because you are a stone trying to convince water that indefinite form isn’t real. The best thing you can do is a person is realize that your lack of caring is abnormal, and thus your actions and decisions are going to be warped due to a selective sociological blind spot.

So let me get this straight – if a person cares more about their feelings than the feelings of another that person is a sociopath?
Because I would argue that a person that cares more about the feelings of others than he does about his own is pathologically altruistic.
People care about others – yes – but ultimately people care more about themselves. That’s not begins a sociopath – it’s being a normal human being. People put themselves first. Normal people at least.

There are very niche situations in which people don’t – but those situations arise from complex and long-term human-human interaction (camaraderie in the field of battle, sacrificing yourself for your partner or child). You can’t expect this level of selflessness in a game – which I would argue isn’t even human contact at all. Or if it is it is the barest minimum.

Your view that my lack of consideration for other players in a video game is a testimony of sociopathy is in itself a testimony of how warped you perceive things to be.
People in this game ( the majority of them and almost all pugs) are not my long-term peers, they’re not my friends, not my neighbors.
Honestly – there’s no way to even prove they’re people at all if you want to get all crazy – how do I know they’re not sophisticated AI?

Crazy ideas aside – what makes you think it’s normal to exhibit a complex behavior such as selflessness in a setting that’s so far removed from the normal circumstances in which this behavior appears?

Within this realm of feelings is the joy gained by playing a particular class, and this is yet another thing that elitism punishes. People feel rewarded for playing their class the way they want, and don’t when they aren’t. With rare exception, this feeling is ubiquitous across the player base. As an addition to tolerance and forgiveness where people have agreed to have competent performance, we have the agreement that parties involved are going to be having fun. This agreement is not taxing, because if everyone is having fun playing the class the way they want, then the time for completion is not a factor. Any additional time spent on content due to inefficiencies is merely time spent having fun.

Of course everything you state is hinges entirely on how you define fun. If the act of playing itself is fun for you then some of what you said stands true.
However – for a great number of MMO players the fun is in the rewards. Most MMO content is a “grind” that you wouldn’t do unless you wanted a reward.
Thus – most MMO players want their reward as quickly as possible because that’s the fun for them.
You’re saying it’s the journey and not the destination – I’m saying it’s the destination and not the journey. At least to me and to others.

So then – the time of completion is always a factor because you want it as short as possible.
The problem is that you only see things from your side and refuse to see the other side. To me doing T4 fractals isn’t fun – opening T4 fractal loot is fun.
Grinding for gold isn’t fun – what’s fun is buying rare skins and crafting legendaries.

It follows naturally that I’d want to spend as little time as possible doing the un-fun part.

This expectation is not selfish. The unspoken agreement is that if one player plays how they want, another player can play how they want regardless of that manner of play. Other teammates are allowed to change their class or min-max their build however they want. There is no expectation to carry or be carried, and there is no debt of performance that demands to be filled.

And what happens when your method of play is incompatible with mine?
If we group together and you want to run your build and “fight all the mobs” while I want to clear the dungeon ASAP and just get out. Who’s right?
The line is drawn when the majority decides. If we decide that we want the end reward quickly and you want to take your time and enjoy the journey – we’re going to kick you because ultimately we’re supposed to group up based on common goals. If we don’t have those then we shouldn’t be playing together.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

This is not a reward. Elitism demands effort, it does not give for less effort.

I’m sorry but you don’t get to redefine what elitism is. Elitism isn’t wanting more effort – it’s being exclusive in who you associate with. It’s being part of “the elite”.
If I wanted more effort I wouldn’t be an elitist – I’d be a masochist. I’ve worked hard to get good at the game in order to have things be easier for me in the game not harder.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

This is also contradictory, because you are assuming that some unworthy player is being gifted a run (which is a collaborative effort) in order to make the argument that somebody should never be gifted a run and that they should be pulling their own weight. It doesn’t work like that. You are also erroneously comparing a peak performance group to an incompetent one. You have to compare a group that has passing competence, so really you should be comparing groups that beat t4 in 35 minutes to ones that complete it in 20.

If your collaboration to our run is less than everyone else’s – you’re being “gifted” the run. If the run would work better with another player then yes – being in the run is something you’re getting as a gift.
Even if I take your comparison – from 35 to 20 minutes – it’s almost twice as long. That might be acceptable to you but it certainly isn’t acceptable to me. 25 instead of 20 maybe – if I’m feeling generous.

And yes people should be pulling their weight – if the run goes BETTER without a certain player ( and yes, that is something that happens when people don’t know what they’re doing and won’t listen) then that person is being gifted the run.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

You also should factor in the time spent training to get that skillful, and also the time spent arguing on the forums to get everyone else to agree with you.

I run things smoothly in game so I can counteract your wild ideas on the forum. Consider it me doing my part for the GW2 community. I kick people that are bad so I can have smooth runs, so I can earn time to explain why bad people should be kicked on the forum.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Lets not pretend that this argument hasn’t been going for years. Since launch I have been in dungeon runs with self-proclaimed experts who possessed the annoying trifecta of being loud, incompetent, and controlling. And through the years, this hasn’t changed.
Your denial of this comes from the fact that you’ve been doing guild runs almost exclusively, in a guild of people who have already agreed to use preset compositions and rotations. For you, somebody who doesn’t run the meta is violating an agreement that you’ve signed with the rest of your guild. The general population, however, is not like this at all. The agreement is to have fun, not to flex their gaming muscles. There is no demand for performance above average minimum competence. There is no “proving” yourself to enter into the game’s general population. The gameplay fascists who jump into a group and start hassling people what their DPS meters say are noticeably not in a guild that agrees to do so, so their competence immediately comes into question.

You’re not even close to being right – I don’t do guild runs – I have a raid team that’s a static but most other content I pug.

I also pugged raids and managed to create Raid teams that cleared content well and fast by simply kicking out the people that did not meet the absurdly high requirements I set or who under performed.

For me someone who doesn’t run the meta is most likely going to be a waste of time – so I’m not going to take the chance.
You want to have fun? Sure go ahead – but not here. You join a serious group – take things seriously or take it somewhere else.

Also what does fascist mean to you? Because I’m pretty sure you’re misusing that term.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I did not spend hours testing different traits and tactics on the raid golem to be “carried”. However I digress, the notion that somebody is “wasting your time” is a notion that you alone hold. Again, a player’s service is not indebted to you. These chill groups are not “carrying”, because they do not have the notion of performance debt to carry. They just play the game.

Sure – but as I value my time – losing it because others won’t spend the minimum amount to learn the build/encounter mechanics you’re not going to convince me that “just playing the game” is good enough.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

If you didn’t bother to “stop there”, you’d realize it is a long term investment. Again, collaborative efforts are not a gift, and performance debt doesn’t exist. It is fair that I am civil and forgive them, and it is fair that they are civil and forgive me.

So investing in something that I have no control over and not one certainty is a smart thing?
Sure – if a player wants me to teach him and puts in the effort, asks for advice and proves he’s interested in actually pulling his weight I’ll help. Even more so if I want to integrate him into my core group.
But train a pug that you’ll never see again? Why?
Collaborative efforts are a gift if the difference in effort is significant.
If we both agree to bring food for a feast and you bring 10% and I bring 90% is it still a team effort?
If I can do something without you but you can’t do it without me – it’s you who’s not bringing enough.

and performance debt doesn’t exist.

Because you said so?

It is fair that I am civil and forgive them, and it is fair that they are civil and forgive me.

So the opposite doesn’t apply? Is it not also fair if I’m unforgiving and others are the same? I don’t need my hand held in game. I really don’t.

Mister Asdasd.6194:

DPS meters is the epitomy of mmo elitism. I could understand MAYBE if organised raid groups would use one to weed out freeloaders who try to sneak in with masterwork and rare gear(yes i have seen those when i used to raid) but a lot of people are using them in fractals and even advertise they have them and will kick you if you dont perform well. Here let me say where dps meters can go wrong. A lot of times when i am fighting a boss as a warrior in melee range i happen to get hit and when i am low on hp and my healing skill in on cd i tend to use longbow and stay in a safe distance for my healing to come back,otherwise i run the risk of dying and being dead is way more useless than losing some dps because i use a secondary weapon to stay alive. Sometimes dps drops because you have to retread or you get downed because of some unfortunate event. These people probably go off on the idea of having a high number because it boosts their kitten. My cousin was in such a group today and saw 2 people getting harassed by the leader because of dps. THey got fed up and 3/5 flamed him and left the group because he was an obnoxious kitten. Fractals arent even THAT hard even on t4 if you dont do the “challenging content” challenge modes of nightmare and shattered observatory fractals. This really puts me off and while i enjoy fractals if this trend gets out of hand i will consider stop doing them,which is the main thing i do in gw besides going to get stomped by gandara in WvW.

Also i would really like to hear an official response to these third party programs used to see private dmg information of other players and kick them because of that. I personally see this as a kind of hacking on behalf of my account

So dodge boss tells and don’t take damage?
Or play a class that can dps from range?

There are ways around it.
Your poor dps might be a symptom of poor game understanding and performance – which is not what people want.

Why do you go and join groups that are clearly advertising as something you dislike?

Miku.6297:

Harper.4173:

I appreciate the feedback.
I appreciate theirs too – I understand how they feel – the only thing is that the world doesn’t always revolve around feelings. Sometimes it’s not personal and just business.

Which is 100% fine; removing someone for performance (just business). The problem is frequently it gets personal, saying we are sorry we need someone with higher DPS for this role, and removing the player is one thing. Saying x is a casual noob, a bad, expects everyone one else to carry them etc is something else… My issue isn’t with the removing people when needed it’s the method it’s done in.

Sure either way some people will be offended, but there is no need to be rude when removing someone.

Then again – as I told another poster before – your real issue is not with DPS meters or the kick tool but with the players you choose to associate with in game.

After all – neither the kick function nor the DPS tool are insulting you and calling you noob. It’s other players – that quite honestly would’ve done the same based on AP or any other arbitrary reason.

People that are going to be vile are going to be vile “regardless” of the DPS tool.
Does anyone here honestly think the kind of people who kick you and insult you afterwards do it because they have a dps tool?.
Would they magically stop if they didn’t have one?

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

leftyboy.9358:

Makuragee.3058:

So today I have been kicked out of a fractal party cause my dps was not maked out, they confirm using dps meter. So now people can use dps meter? So arenanet you change your mind? Can I ask a refund of my entire account cause I clearly remember back a couple year ago dps meter was illegal and thats was one of the reason I started playing this game. To avoid kittens players. If I recall the user agreement speak of this? Did anet change the user agreement without notice or I miss something?

One problem with DPS meters is that after awhile it can be all you see. Telling someone their DPS “sucks” for example does nothing to help someone get better. They should at most be utilized in groups that have an understanding going in, and where all have the same goal to maximize, and then only as a challenge once everyone in group has mastery over mechanics.

But hey , most don’t say anything b4 kicking someone, so props to the dude for saying anything. That’s something I guess.

Also, DPS far from tells the whole story. For CM100, for example, a meter would clock me as having sub-par DPS on Arkk on my guardian, but that is because I save my full burst for the anomalies that spawn and spam aegis via Retreat. Or it would have me at low DPS on my necromancer, mostly because I would take corrosive poison cloud and epidemic to handle the red marbles and anomalies instead of taking max DPS skills. If the run should fail, the group would look at me as the weak link in spite of providing several utilities that greatly increase our chances of success.

It is one of the reasons why I don’t stress DPS so much. If the options are open I will go for max deeps, but I’d much rather take the useful utility over the minor damage buff. Bane signet may increase my personal damage by 6%, but Retreat saves lives.

What you’re stating is absurd.
You’re saying people will kick you because of low dps while you’re sacrificing your dps to take the burden off mechanics.
Honestly no good group will do this.

Do you do raids? Do you know what Chrono DPS is in raids? If what you’re saying is true every elitist-raid group would be unable to finish clearing raids because they’d be kicking their chronos instantly.

It’s not just about DPS – it’s about mechanics also.
You can tank or heal in raids and get kicked because you’re not doing that job well.

DPS is one mechanic that people get kicked for – but to make this claim that you’re getting kicked for low dps while you’re doing another critical job means you’re either dishonest or unable to figure out which groups are actually good.

In the second case your issue is not dps meters but the quality of the people you’ve associated with and no removal of dps meters will change that.

With those two things recognized, it postulates the following: forgiving bad play fosters a positive community that will, in turn, forgive your bad play.

Except I’m perfectly fine with being kicked and excluded if I’m performing poorly.
If I tackle content seriously with a serious group that’s good and does things well – I try to do as well as everybody else.
I’ve been in this situation a few times – where due to lack of skill or experience I was clearly under performing compared to the others in the group and while they did not kick me I dropped out myself because weighing people down is not something that’s right to do. I came back at it later when I was more on-point.
Sometimes I’m tired – so I don’t play hard content because I know I won’t perform to the standards of a good team.

If you are tolerant of the failures of others, then others will be tolerant of your failure. And you will fail eventually. It is a two-way street, where if I am forgiven then I am expected to forgive.

It is a two-way street but unlike you I am not afraid of being called out on failure and suffering the consequences of my actions or performance. It’s called being responsible for yourself.

Your view on this is warped. Other players do not take from you by joining your party, for there is no debt that random people are expected to fill.

If someone slows my run down and makes me waste 10-15 minutes – then yes – there is a debt. They take from me directly – they sap and ruin my enjoyment of the game and waste my time. I like neither of those things.

Kicking a player is the worst way to solve an interpersonal problem. No negotiation, no forgiveness, no instruction. It breeds hostility and doesn’t fix the long term issues.

And here’s one of the problems – from what I gather you think everything is an interpersonal problem while in most cases it is not.
If we’re pugging – I don’t know you and you don’t know me. I don’t need you as a person – I need someone to execute certain mechanics ( even a good enough NPC – like we had in GW1- would do).
If I kick you for poor performance ( or you me) I don’t do it as a personal or inter-personal issue because honestly we’re not even close to being on that level – I do it because you are not performing a role that I need filled.

No negotiation, no forgiveness, no instruction. It breeds hostility and doesn’t fix the long term issues.

No amount of negotiation or forgiveness will teach you core mechanics or give you the proper gear.
I’m not the game’s tutorial system – I’m not here to instruct you ( especially since all hard content is incredibly old).

Again – don’t make this personal because it suits your narrative – it is not personal. I have no interest in 90% of the people I meet in pugs as persons.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Oh please. Joining your group is not a reward. Not only is the quality to the group irrelevant to how elitist the players feel, but groups do not have preliminary trials before accepting others into their ranks. They simply expect you to perform, regardless of their own skill. You are “rewarded” for nothing, and punished for everything.

Joining a group that clears T4s in 20 minutes is a reward compared to joining a group that takes an hour.
Joining a raid group that fully clears in 2-2.5 hours instead of 6-7 per week is a reward. You might not see it but you are gaining something with a lot less effort – in a sense you’re getting a “discount” on time. Which in itself is to your benefit.
Good groups perform well and expect you to do the same.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

It has been my experience that the groups who demand the most performance out of their players are often the most terrible.

This as far as I’ve seen is false. Most groups that have demanded good play practices from me ( proper gear, proper rotations, good knowledge of hard content) have been very good groups that I’ve had a good experience playing with.
Perhaps you’re not able to find the right groups?

They get frustrated from their failures (both in game and IRL), and become gameplay fascists as a response. They attempt to dictate every little thing in their lives in an attempt to counteract their impotence, but this doesn’t make them better players. It just makes them insufferable. Likewise, some of the best groups that I’ve been on are chill. I got the Be Dynamic achievement on a team that didn’t even try for the meta comp. No druid healer, no CPS warrior, and the only reason the team had a support chrono was because I brought it.

I think you’re falling into the US-centric mindset of throwing the “fascist” term around too easily. It has a definition – it does not apply here.
Personally I get most frustrated when encountering players that waste my time. You might think that’s “IRL” or “in-game failure” but honestly I can’t stand having to pick someone up off the floor 24/7 or having to tell them what to do on content that has been out for years.
Yes there are chill groups out there that will carry you, even if you’re non-meta – but that doesn’t mean all good groups are supposed to accept you just because some of them did.

It is fair to them. It is called tolerance. First it recognizes that people are people and they have feelings.

I’m going to have to stop you right here.
First and foremost it is not fair to them that you gain from their good performance while not being able to provide the same. It’s unfair – you get more off them then you give in return. Nobody can call that fair.

Second of all you have feelings – sure – (although personally I don’t particularly care about them nor am I obligated to do so) there’s the issue of their feelings as well.
You have feelings that get hurt if you get kicked or told you’re bad?
Well guess what – I have feelings that get hurt and a play experience that is ruined if I have to play with a bad player that’s not bothering to pull his weight and wants to leech off my run.
When did your feelings become more important than mine?

The answer ( for me at least) is simple: never – because I’m me and to myself I matter more than you do.

Second, it recognizes that there are a myriad of reasons why even the most pretentious players will fall by the wayside in performance.

Again I’m not sure where in this game’s TOS it says that I’m required to take into account your entire real-life baggage, stress or issues.

Miku.6297:

Dextra.8162:

Miku.6297:

Dextra.8162:

Or say:

Casual T4’s, 2hr run YAY.

The attitude here is what people don’t like.

And the other half of us don’t like the attitudes of those thinking they are entitled to get rewarded for selfish play and behavior.

So let me see if I get this right, coming in to a run that has no specified rules with your own build just playing to have fun is a bad attitude? Many people who run “sub optimal” specs simply enjoy playing the game their way. Some players are unable to play at the “meta” level: a player I know had a stroke and can only use his right hand. His dps is a bit lower then others when it comes to moving and fighting, so that makes him “entitled” or his play and behavior “selfish”.

Seriously; expecting everyone to play how YOU want all the time is just as selfish if not more then then them wanting to play their way. If someone enters a run that says speed run, DPS etc then I understand. The attitude I’m referring to is the toxicity in some of the posts, and the assumption that anyone not playing “meta builds” wants to be carried for free.

It does make it selfish and entitled if he joins 4 other players that don’t want him.
It’s the exact same thing – I want something – you want something – we’re both just as right and just as wrong.
Best thing is to not play together.

Like I said – playing a meta build or close to it is a sign that you want to fully contribute to the team. Not doing it is a sign that you value yourself more than the other people in the party if that group is indeed a meta group.
You want your cake and you want to eat it too.

Ferelwing.8463:

What makes someone the bad guy is when they do it in an insulting manner.

Problem is nowadays anyone can consider anything insulting. I kick you – you’re insulted.
I tell you I don’t like your play style – you’re insulted and I’m an elitist.

If I kick someone for being bad – even if the LFG didn’t specifically “don’t be bad” am I wrong?
Does “be experienced” cover the notion of “don’t die every time we fight mobs?”
Do I have to write volumes in my LFG detailing everything?

Ferelwing.8463:

Harper.4173:

TheGrimm.5624:

*Tools that empower players to be kitten to others to me are a bad idea. The fact that this thread was started already proves this was an issue. *

Nobody needs a tool for that. If I want to be a kitten I can do it without any dps meter.
If I want to kick I can kick based on anything I want – LI, AP, “you went down too much”, etc.

If you think the addition of a dps meter changes anything – you’re just wrong.
Bad players get kicked. It’s been like this since 2012.

…. And this is exactly why so many people HATE playing with people with that mentality. People wonder why I don’t PUG or bother with LFG, your attitude is precisely why. I don’t pretend to know everything but there’s a way to help people learn and then there’s being insulting. If the goal is speed then say so in the LFG tool, if the goal is only to have experienced players then say so… So other people can know precisely to avoid you.

I personally find the entire attitude insulting and rude but hey, that’s probably because I know there is an actual human on the other end who may not be having a good day or perhaps has other things going on at the time and doesn’t deserve to be insulted and attacked while they’re playing a GAME for fun.

Yes I agree- there’s a way to help people learn but I’m not obligated to teach every new/bad player I come across what’s what.
I’m a players myself, that seeks to enjoy the game the way I feel is right for me.
Experienced/good players are not this game’s tutorial system. I’m not under some binding oath to help all newbies. People on these forums always ask “elitists” to teach and help new players – to me there’s no fun or reward in that.

They can teach themselves if they really want to. Nobody taught me. There are videos, written guides, build calculators – you name it.

When I make my LFGs I state my requirements clearly. When people don’t meet them I kick them. To me it’s not an issue.

I personally find the entire attitude insulting and rude but hey, that’s probably because I know there is an actual human on the other end who may not be having a good day or perhaps has other things going on at the time and doesn’t deserve to be insulted and attacked while they’re playing a GAME for fun.

And I’m not a therapist or a go-to “feel better” NPC that has to help you through content because life is stressful. You’re playing for fun in a way that you find fun. I’m playing for fun too in a way that I find fun. If your presence disrupts my fun then I’m sorry – I’m not going to keep you around just because “you might have had a bad day”. We’re both humans, we both have our issues and are both responsible four our lives and our fun.
If your fun ruins my fun then you’re getting kicked. That’s what I’m trying to say. You’re in no way shape or form more entitled to have fun with your GW2 than I am.

Somehow this makes me the bad guy.

Ferelwing.8463:

Harper.4173:

Miku.6297:

Dextra.8162:

So I should just let a longbow “dps” druid/ranger in the party who offers 0 dps and gets carried for basically free loot while everyone else picks up the slack?

I see this THE MOST and I will usually leave the party. It’s a gigantic waste of time. T4 fracs should not take more than 20 mins. Adjust, stop being lazy, or get kicked. You can argue that that is rude, but honestly people coming in with their snowflake builds contributing nothing and getting carried is the problem and rude in itself.

If the ranger is attacking how is it doing 0 dps? While I agree people looking to be carried isn’t the most enjoyable thing. How ever assuming everyone in a different build from what you consider ideal preforms poorly is rude. It’s about how you present your arguement, removing someone who is just wanting a free ride is one thing, acting like a jerk is another. (refering to the tone of the post with the negative comments and mass exaggeration)

He’s doing some dps but he’s basically just wasting people’s time.
Optimal builds are a courtesy – to the people you play with. If you’re not bothering to play the build the content requires I don’t see why people who enjoy that content should bother taking you along.

Mindset should be: “I want to play X content. What gear do I need? What build do I need? How can I do it well”.
People with that mindset don’t have issues with groups.
People that just join and expect things to go well for them at the expense of others are the bane of MMOs and should be kicked on sight.

And here is the reason I do not join PUG’s, don’t play games with random players and have zero interest in joining those who do. I play for fun not to have to meet certain specs/quota’s etc while that might be fun for you… Absolutely the reason I avoid other MMO’s.

Cool – I appreciate you staying away from those that are different from you. It’s better for you and for them.

Ferelwing.8463:

Harper.4173:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

My biggest concern with DPS meters is that I’ll end up marked for my mistakes.

DPS meters are not tools to reward good performance. They only exist to punish bad performance. The issue is, bad days happen. Sometimes I can’t get my skills off, and my performance will sink because of reasons both within and out of my control. On good days, I am not going to be rewarded for doing everything right. I am expected to do everything right as the norm. But on a bad day? I’ll be facing the threat of being kicked + blocked. That connection is severed forever because of bad luck. This is what is meant by DPS meters making a toxic environment: you are never rewarded, only punished. This kind of environment is why companies create automatic reward programs for their low end workers; to counteract the issue where only failures are noticeable.

The thing about self improvement is that you really don’t need a DPS meter for it. Common sense applied to your skills and traits is enough to produce a working damage rotation, and competent play is enough to ensure success. I’ve tried out my own rotations on the DPS golem and seen what works, and when in combat I can usually tell whether I’m doing good damage or not just by evaluating my own performance. If I continually blast my enemies with all my high damage skills then I’m doing good DPS, and if I can’t then I’m not.

You’re looking at it oddly.
When you do well you’re rewarded with being accepted into a group that does well. That’s the reward.
When you do poorly you’re rejected and kicked – that’s the punishment.
There is both reward and punishment.

Do well – reward. Do bad – punishment.
I know you would prefer (like anyone else) to be accepted into a group that does well even if you do poorly – but that’s not really fair to them is it?

If you want to play with people that do well – you should be like them and do well yourself. It’s only fair to them that they gain as much from you as you gain from them when you play together.
I understand your fear – it’s normal. I have nothing against being kicked if I’m performing poorly. Why should you or anyone else?

So join groups that are like minded and don’t insist everyone else play like you or put a warning in the title so people can choose to avoid you and your group because the dps meter is unfun.

Sure – agreed. But people who want to “play how I want” are usually so entitled they’ll join any group because “I bought the game I have a right”. So you end up with them in your party and have to kick them. And then they go cry on the forums how the world’s not fair.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

My biggest concern with DPS meters is that I’ll end up marked for my mistakes.

DPS meters are not tools to reward good performance. They only exist to punish bad performance. The issue is, bad days happen. Sometimes I can’t get my skills off, and my performance will sink because of reasons both within and out of my control. On good days, I am not going to be rewarded for doing everything right. I am expected to do everything right as the norm. But on a bad day? I’ll be facing the threat of being kicked + blocked. That connection is severed forever because of bad luck. This is what is meant by DPS meters making a toxic environment: you are never rewarded, only punished. This kind of environment is why companies create automatic reward programs for their low end workers; to counteract the issue where only failures are noticeable.

The thing about self improvement is that you really don’t need a DPS meter for it. Common sense applied to your skills and traits is enough to produce a working damage rotation, and competent play is enough to ensure success. I’ve tried out my own rotations on the DPS golem and seen what works, and when in combat I can usually tell whether I’m doing good damage or not just by evaluating my own performance. If I continually blast my enemies with all my high damage skills then I’m doing good DPS, and if I can’t then I’m not.

You’re looking at it oddly.
When you do well you’re rewarded with being accepted into a group that does well. That’s the reward.
When you do poorly you’re rejected and kicked – that’s the punishment.
There is both reward and punishment.

Do well – reward. Do bad – punishment.
I know you would prefer (like anyone else) to be accepted into a group that does well even if you do poorly – but that’s not really fair to them is it?

If you want to play with people that do well – you should be like them and do well yourself. It’s only fair to them that they gain as much from you as you gain from them when you play together.
I understand your fear – it’s normal. I have nothing against being kicked if I’m performing poorly. Why should you or anyone else?

UnbentMars.9126:

Harper.4173:

UnbentMars.9126:

Harper.4173:

draxynnic.3719:

UnbentMars.9126:

I predict that we will kill Balthazar and Rytlock will take his power to become the new god of war, Kormir-style. Rytlock clearly already knows something that he will FINALLY reveal to us as he mentions it in the trailer, and who else is kitten enough to take that kind of power (besides the PC, but we all know Anet won’t let us do that).

You heard it here first folks.

Actually, I made that speculation shortly after Episode 5. It was a little tongue-in-cheek, but I can (and do) claim to have come up with the idea long before hearing it here.

Part of the justification was that having a charr replace the god who possibly started the charr-human war in the first place could serve as a form of apology, and given the charr liking for war and fire (even if the non-Flame Charr have stepped away from that a bit, they still appreciate its practical applications) a charr who’s demonstrated an ability to cooperate with humans would be a fitting choice. It’d also be a way to troll the Flame Legion by having a charr god of fire who isn’t one of theirs.

I honestly don’t understand this western-type apologetic mindset. There seems to be a fixation with it – and I don’t really see why it should be part of a game.
A game – that as far as I’m concerned – shouldn’t try to appeal to the latest “cultural trend”.

Why should you apologize? What for? We all try to become great and in the process come into conflict with others. There’s honor in fighting to claim greatness.

What kind of mental gymnastics do you have to do to get to the ‘hurr durr appeal to the latest cultural trend’ out of that?

Well – I’ve seen the latest culture trend of apology-inspired “let’s not offend and let’s make everything alright for everyone” which I think is an attitude that permeates throughout a lot of the US.
Why would you ever apologize to your enemy? Humans and Charr aren’t friends – they’re allies out of necessity.

Well – you’ve seen what you are looking for. What’s wrong with not offending people?
Going out of your way to offend someone is what most people call ‘rude’ and ‘unnecessary’. The rest of us see an ever-increasing refusal to apologize for anything even if you really should. The Charr and the Humans were enemies, now they are friends/allies and both sides have several places in Core Tyria (personal story, events, hearts, random NPC dialogue) where they explain valid reasoning behind both the apologies and the importance of the friendship/alliance more than just out of necessity.

Feel free to run around explaining to the NPCs why they are wrong, I’m sure they’ll see the error of their ways and start fighting other friendly NPCs.

The problem is that they’re changing too much of the game’s core elements in order to create this “all-inclusive, everyone is happy narrative”. It’s sacrificing lore and story for the sake of “friendship”.

The humans and charr are allies out of necessity. And honestly I don’t see how peace can be an issue while the kitten ed Charr occupy the lands of Ascalon.
There are situations in life where there can be no middle ground. Both sides are right.
History will not determine who’s right – only who’s left.

Rashagar.8349:

Astro Bear.6305:

Rashagar.8349:

Wow. Why don’t I break it down for you for a second.

The meta is there for a reason.

That reason is laziness.

T4 is pre-raid content. Build like it.

No, that’s not how it works.

If you don’t like it. Stay out of high level fractals with pugs.

You do not get to dictate or speak for the attitudes of all high-level fractal pugs.

don’t get upset when some people actually playing real builds doing actual damage kick you

Your build is no more “real” for being meta-bullkitten than anyone else’s is.

I’m just being real

You’re being a real something alright.

Your head appears to be somewhat lodged inside your kitten. I suggest you remove it. Your point of view may be drastically improved.

Ahahahaha, love it! Well my head might be up my kitten but at least I’m not dragging down every fractal group in T4 with kitten poor dps. I’ve noticed only the 3k DPS club boys cry about elitism and how content is hard ect, ect, ect.

Funnily enough, I’ve noticed that only the “goes full glass but can’t kill things fast enough to avoid dying so blames everyone else for their death instead of actually getting good enough to survive a glassy spec” crowd are the ones who cry about wanting dps checks =P

You do realize that high DPS is the way to stay alive in this game don’t you?
Kill X before it kills you is a valid and fast tactic.
If your DPS is low you’ll wipe the team.

Rashagar.8349:

Wow. Why don’t I break it down for you for a second.

The meta is there for a reason.

That reason is laziness.

T4 is pre-raid content. Build like it.

No, that’s not how it works.

If you don’t like it. Stay out of high level fractals with pugs.

You do not get to dictate or speak for the attitudes of all high-level fractal pugs.

don’t get upset when some people actually playing real builds doing actual damage kick you

Your build is no more “real” for being meta-bullkitten than anyone else’s is.

I’m just being real

You’re being a real something alright.

Your head appears to be somewhat lodged inside your kitten. I suggest you remove it. Your point of view may be drastically improved.

1. So what if that reason is laziness? When do you get to tell me how hard-working I have to be in this game?

2. T4 is pre-raid content. You may not like it but saying “no that’s not how it works” doesn’t change one thing.

3. He may not be able to speak for all groups but he can speak for his. And he can kick for his too.

4. Builds are “rated” based on how effective they are. Your build is real too – but if it isn’t meta it’s not worth anything honestly. Because ultimately it’s just a waste of time and the means through which things are made necessarily complicated.

5.His head is fine – be mad somewhere else.

STIHL.2489:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

STIHL.2489:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

STIHL.2489:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

STIHL.2489:

I have got to ask, how does a level 50, get enough AR, to even enter a T4 fractal without getting eaten alive by Agony?

You can purchase as much AR as you like on the TP.

Ok.. Well, Wow, in the off chance this was not a total troll response, as far as I know, Agony Resist infusions can only be slotted it into Ascended Gear which is ML 80 (might be ML79 on some pieces).

So, I’ll ask you again.. how exactly does a level 50, get enough AR to enter a T4 fractal?

On the off chance that you’re not trolling, as I added above, “L50” might have been referring to personal fractal level. (There are also more than a few exotics that will take infusions.)

Besides, you don’t need any AR to enter a fractal. There are only a tiny number of spots where agony can’t be avoided (and some people are good enough at footwork to avoid all the others).

If someone is at Fractal level 50, would have the common sense by that point to know what the abbreviations mean in the LFG panel , so that makes no sense.

Lets get real, anyone who has the twitch to dance agony in a T4 fractal with what amounts to No AR, could out strip any elitist with a meta toon.. because.. kitten they are serious pro.

Also, Exotics are also level 80 (I believe 76 might be the ML, or some such)

I’m not altogether clear on your point now. Do you claim that everyone reads the LFG? Do you claim that people who do always respect the requirements?

The issue raised was that someone looking for an experienced group got people who were demonstrably inexperienced or otherwise not ready to do T4 dailies. You’re still quibbling about the details, rather than accepting that people organizing for challenging group content sometimes (even often) get people who aren’t prepared.

I asked above and I’ll ask again:

• If you join a group that’s asking for experience (or whatever), is it okay for the leader to /kick those who don’t have it?
• If you join a group that is “all welcome”, is it okay for the leader to /kick those who demonstrate they are looking only for an experienced group (e.g. they complain about folks with low DPS)?

It seems to me that using a DPS meter makes it easier for experienced people to find and group with other experienced people. And it also makes it easier for the inexperienced and those who don’t care to avoid folks focused on DPS. Regardless of the other pros/cons, that seems like a good thing for everyone.

My point, is that the hard gear requirement just to get enough AR to do fractals weans out the clueless players, as such, all these Elite Zerg players claiming to get plagued by noobs for T4 fractals, reeks of being a myth, a fable if you will, more then any real event, all said to justify their own elitism.

If you want to be an Elitist, just own it, don’t go blaming anyone else for your attitude, and if you are so plagued by “noobs” on your T4 fractal runs that you feel the need for 3rd party software to DPS check them, then, its time to face facts that Pugging is not for you. Find a Guild of like minded players and stick to static Fractal runs.

Or just get a friend or two – fill with pugs – don’t run a dps meter because it upsets the casuals and just kick at your discretion based on arbitrary reasons.
Why not?
“Not enough APs” – kicked.
“Went down” – kicked.
“Why are you over there?”- Kicked.

Isn’t it more fun like this?
Why base kicks on an objective reality when we can go back to 2012/2013 and I can kick based on your AP, class, or whatever else crosses my mind.

Aomine.5012:

Dextra.8162:

So I should just let a longbow “dps” druid/ranger in the party who offers 0 dps and gets carried for basically free loot while everyone else picks up the slack?

I see this THE MOST and I will usually leave the party. It’s a gigantic waste of time. T4 fracs should not take more than 20 mins. Adjust, stop being lazy, or get kicked. You can argue that that is rude, but honestly people coming in with their snowflake builds contributing nothing and getting carried is the problem and rude in itself.

Thanks for proving my previous point
Yeah, wasting that extra 5 mins of yours is such a sin!
All the Pugs are being carried by you cuz it takes more than 20 mins!

5 minutes might not matter to you – they matter to others.
And it’s not just about the time – at least not for me. For me it’s about my enjoyment of the content. If someone is using some weird build that has no synergy with our group, he’s not tackling the content properly then that ruins the experience for me.

Just like for other “casual” groups me telling them “stack here, do this, go there” ruins the experience for them.
So stay away from each other. Best option.

Miku.6297:

Dextra.8162:

So I should just let a longbow “dps” druid/ranger in the party who offers 0 dps and gets carried for basically free loot while everyone else picks up the slack?

I see this THE MOST and I will usually leave the party. It’s a gigantic waste of time. T4 fracs should not take more than 20 mins. Adjust, stop being lazy, or get kicked. You can argue that that is rude, but honestly people coming in with their snowflake builds contributing nothing and getting carried is the problem and rude in itself.

If the ranger is attacking how is it doing 0 dps? While I agree people looking to be carried isn’t the most enjoyable thing. How ever assuming everyone in a different build from what you consider ideal preforms poorly is rude. It’s about how you present your arguement, removing someone who is just wanting a free ride is one thing, acting like a jerk is another. (refering to the tone of the post with the negative comments and mass exaggeration)

He’s doing some dps but he’s basically just wasting people’s time.
Optimal builds are a courtesy – to the people you play with. If you’re not bothering to play the build the content requires I don’t see why people who enjoy that content should bother taking you along.

Mindset should be: “I want to play X content. What gear do I need? What build do I need? How can I do it well”.
People with that mindset don’t have issues with groups.
People that just join and expect things to go well for them at the expense of others are the bane of MMOs and should be kicked on sight.

TheGrimm.5624:

*Tools that empower players to be kitten to others to me are a bad idea. The fact that this thread was started already proves this was an issue. *

Nobody needs a tool for that. If I want to be a kitten I can do it without any dps meter.
If I want to kick I can kick based on anything I want – LI, AP, “you went down too much”, etc.

If you think the addition of a dps meter changes anything – you’re just wrong.
Bad players get kicked. It’s been like this since 2012.

DPS meters are a way of filtering out bad players AND giving good players a chance to prove themselves.
If DPS meters weren’t a thing people would still kick you based on other, more flawed, more arbitrary criteria.

I think everyone would prefer a situation where they have a chance over the situation where nobody measures your dps because they’ve kicked you based on AP.

Do you really want to go back to those days? Because honestly -I’ll be glad to do it.

There’s clearly two camps here – people that enjoy it and people that don’t.
I honestly can’t stand it. I barely did it the second time and don’t think I have it in me to do it again.

I believe an alternative should exist. After all – GW2 has given plenty of alternatives for different things (Legendary armor most recently) so why not be able to get the gifts some other way?

UnbentMars.9126:

Harper.4173:

draxynnic.3719:

UnbentMars.9126:

I predict that we will kill Balthazar and Rytlock will take his power to become the new god of war, Kormir-style. Rytlock clearly already knows something that he will FINALLY reveal to us as he mentions it in the trailer, and who else is kitten enough to take that kind of power (besides the PC, but we all know Anet won’t let us do that).

You heard it here first folks.

Actually, I made that speculation shortly after Episode 5. It was a little tongue-in-cheek, but I can (and do) claim to have come up with the idea long before hearing it here.

Part of the justification was that having a charr replace the god who possibly started the charr-human war in the first place could serve as a form of apology, and given the charr liking for war and fire (even if the non-Flame Charr have stepped away from that a bit, they still appreciate its practical applications) a charr who’s demonstrated an ability to cooperate with humans would be a fitting choice. It’d also be a way to troll the Flame Legion by having a charr god of fire who isn’t one of theirs.

I honestly don’t understand this western-type apologetic mindset. There seems to be a fixation with it – and I don’t really see why it should be part of a game.
A game – that as far as I’m concerned – shouldn’t try to appeal to the latest “cultural trend”.

Why should you apologize? What for? We all try to become great and in the process come into conflict with others. There’s honor in fighting to claim greatness.

What kind of mental gymnastics do you have to do to get to the ‘hurr durr appeal to the latest cultural trend’ out of that?

Well – I’ve seen the latest culture trend of apology-inspired “let’s not offend and let’s make everything alright for everyone” which I think is an attitude that permeates throughout a lot of the US.
Why would you ever apologize to your enemy? Humans and Charr aren’t friends – they’re allies out of necessity.

draxynnic.3719:

UnbentMars.9126:

I predict that we will kill Balthazar and Rytlock will take his power to become the new god of war, Kormir-style. Rytlock clearly already knows something that he will FINALLY reveal to us as he mentions it in the trailer, and who else is kitten enough to take that kind of power (besides the PC, but we all know Anet won’t let us do that).

You heard it here first folks.

Actually, I made that speculation shortly after Episode 5. It was a little tongue-in-cheek, but I can (and do) claim to have come up with the idea long before hearing it here.

Part of the justification was that having a charr replace the god who possibly started the charr-human war in the first place could serve as a form of apology, and given the charr liking for war and fire (even if the non-Flame Charr have stepped away from that a bit, they still appreciate its practical applications) a charr who’s demonstrated an ability to cooperate with humans would be a fitting choice. It’d also be a way to troll the Flame Legion by having a charr god of fire who isn’t one of theirs.

I honestly don’t understand this western-type apologetic mindset. There seems to be a fixation with it – and I don’t really see why it should be part of a game.
A game – that as far as I’m concerned – shouldn’t try to appeal to the latest “cultural trend”.

Why should you apologize? What for? We all try to become great and in the process come into conflict with others. There’s honor in fighting to claim greatness.

UnbentMars.9126:

I predict that we will kill Balthazar and Rytlock will take his power to become the new god of war, Kormir-style. Rytlock clearly already knows something that he will FINALLY reveal to us as he mentions it in the trailer, and who else is kitten enough to take that kind of power (besides the PC, but we all know Anet won’t let us do that).

You heard it here first folks.

This is literally the worst thing ever and a complete disregard to old lore.
I get accepting the peace treaty – I get that we have to be a PC with all the other races now.
I can even begrudgingly accept that I can’t join Balthazar in the first PoF mission despite being asked to do so and wholeheartedly wanting to.

But this is too far – to have a Charr as the human god of war – it just completely ruins the old lore for me.
I honestly wouldn’t accept it.

I like it – takes care of clutter. So far it’s okay.

1.Personally being called to join Balthazar and saying no is a minus point for me. If you’re not going to let me join him or make a choice as a player at least don’t put the choice there.
Personally I’d have loved to join Balthazar.

2. Hearts are terrible. Hearts in story missions are really really boring – and break the flow of things.
Story missions as far as I’m concerned are supposed to be about the story not putting out tedious fires. I could accept it if it was 5x faster to complete.
I get it – I put out some fires and saved some people – I don’t need to do it 30 times.

3. Mount movement so far is SPOT ON. I cannot praise the team that did the physics and movement for them enough.
They feel like they have mass, they move fast but have inertia, they can’t turn on a dime – overall a wonderful experience.
I agree we’ve only seen the raptor so far but I believe that if the rest are similar – this will be a top-tier feature that I dare say might surpass gliding.

-More to come as I keep going-

Mount speed is fine. Maybe you should have the option to have a slower mount if you can’t handle a faster one – maybe a toggle in the menu – but make it slower and then the question of why would I ride it? comes up.

I’m profoundly disappointed by these changes. We’re once again in the gutter. Top tier changes Anet. Top tier.

I get what you’re saying – but at the same time I couldn’t see a plot line that would turn Balthazar away from humanity.
He’s the god that helped them push into Tyria and take it over. He’s the one who helped them defeat the other races and make room for themselves.
It seems absurd to me that they’d make him indifferent to humans. At the very least he should still be asking them to fight for him. That’s what would have made sense.

Him pretending to be Lazarus in order to gain support from White Mantle? Then hiring mercenaries – does that make sense?
What would have made sense ( to me at least) would have been him showing up in Divinity’s Reach and demanding that humanity aid and follow him – and I believe they would.

So yes – they could do anything with the story. They’ve already established the gods are not beyond fail. Perhaps it’s not that the other gods would be malicious – but perhaps they’re being deceived or in some way mistaken.
It could all simply a huge, misunderstanding, that ultimately forces them down this path, neither side willing to admit their mistakes.

This story at least would be somewhat interesting. Currently they’ve taken Balthazar and made him a generic enemy – which to me is sad and boring.

Amaimon.7823:

Does race even matter?
We abandoned our krewe, our warband, norn dont care about the hunt, sylvari abandoned their wyld hunt, and humans.. well.. royal or born on the streets, when was the last time you met with your friends?

Pretty much this – the races have been “humanized” to fit the narrative that needs to push forward. It doesn’t feel authentic to me.
Ultimately you can’t play as a Norn or Asura or Charr because you’re a human. You’re a human playing as these races and the story has been twisted and modified to accommodate this to the point where it doesn’t even feel believable.

Chadramar.8156:

Harper.4173:

This is why GW2 as a multiracial game fails. Because it can’t work in its current scope as multiracial.

Disagree. It could work if they switched the focus back to the player character i.e. the protagonist instead of the too-many NPCs and their various issues. We’re not talking about wholly diverging storylines here — even a human character should have brains enough to realize that a god who is perfectly happy to kill them and everyone on Tyria isn’t worth following, though giving them a bit of an optional crisis-of-faith arc should be a must. Mainly, all I really want a handful of race-specific dialog lines per story chapter or LS episode (voiced or not) and some regular call-outs to the character’s origin. Like a charr catching up with their warband or getting word from their Imperator. Or a sylvari getting to talk about their Wyld Hunt (do we even have one anymore?) and keeping up with news about the Pale Tree’s condition.

If this was a single-race game, it’d probably be human-only, and that would be a waste IMO because pretty much every other culture is far more interesting to me.

First of all I understand why you’re disagreeing – but like I said before – multiple story lines require resources they don’t have. That’s why having one story line would have made more sense.
Heck – if GW2 wasn’t multiracial I doubt we’d have seen the human gods as antagonists at all.
But leaving that aside – You don’t exactly know what Balthazar intends to do – or if he indeed intends to kill everyone on Tyria. Honestly – I feel he’s been written into this corner because we need an antagonist – to me – a more in-character Balthazar would have attempted to reconquer the land. Which I would fully support.

You say that a human-only game would be a waste – I disagree – it would have pros and cons.
The main reason it wasn’t human only was simply the economic factor- a multi-race game sells better. Simply being able to staple on “We have more than one race” is enough to bring clients that otherwise would have been lost. That’s why it was a must to have more than the humans as a playable race.

Honestly – I find the other races interesting too – but feel they were MUCH more unique and fleshed out in GW1 when they weren’t playable – precisely because they weren’t playable and you didn’t have to “humanize” them in a way to fit players.
I should also point out that we’ve had no other human culture in GW2 because space is taken up by cultures of other races – in GW1 you had other human cultures that were very unique and interesting. There was space in GW2 to make other human cultures that would be just as unique as interesting as the other races now. Plus – having the game be human-only as playable characters didn’t mean not have the other races in the game – just that you couldn’t play as them. Their lore, and unique elements would not be lost.

Lastly – I feel human only would have made the story much much more coherent – because you could have focused on one point of view instead of trying to jump around so much.
When you try to please everyone you end up pleasing no-one. That’s how the GW2 story feels to me.

We need this – so many books in game – this would be an awesome addition!

I miss dungeons too – somehow fractals never did capture that same element.
I think the problem is that fractals, unlike dungeons were never lore-heavy. Dungeons were very thematic and lore-heavy and that made them a very good and strong overall experience.

This is indeed absurd. I don’t see how this Oath could have fit the other races at all.

This is why GW2 as a multiracial game fails. Because it can’t work in its current scope as multiracial.
Sure – if you had 10x the number of devs and resources it could have worked – with each race getting an awesome story that makes sense. But like this? No.

You guys are experiencing now the same thing I experienced when Balthazar was revealed – and as a human player – instead of immediately joining him I was forced to fight him despite my actual loyalties.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

To quote Balthazar in the trailer:

“I will right this wrong.”

-skip-

“They cannot escape my wrath.”

“When I am done… I will be the only god.”

This seems to me that the theories of the other gods betraying Balthazar / being the cause of his fall is true. But worst yet is that this is almost an exact duplicate of Abaddon’s plot.

When he rebelled against the gods, it was after they revoked his gift of magic and the Forgotten nearly wiped out his people, and his goal became to rule Tyria as the “only god”. With Nightfall, his goal appeared to change to freedom and revenge against the gods, without much care for ruling Tyria.

Now we have Balthazar, who sees himself betrayed by the other gods, and seeks revenge against them.

Did ArenaNet think we loved Abaddon’s plot so much we want to see it happen again or something?

We don’t know why the gods weakened Balthazar, but it seems based on his dialogue that this is so. Otherwise, he would not be proclaiming to be “the only god” when all is said and done. Unless the other gods are already dead, which I find unlikely as that would make him already the only god (unless they were usurped by Dhuum and Menzies or similar beings he is now out to kill).

Even his forces seem to be akin to a duplication of Abaddon’s – his mercenaries seem no more, replaced instead by these “Forged”, and just as Margonites were demonic-like beings with watery bodies, these are demonic-like constructs with fiery bodies… Next we’ll learn the Forged are the mercenaries… Or better yet – they’re the Zaishen!

I hope this won’t be the case.
I can imagine one way of salvaging this – perhaps in a plot twist it is revealed that the other gods are in the wrong for taking Balthazar’s power and we end up teaming up with him? It would be interesting. Although I doubt it.

I’m in this exact spot. I have the money and the will to make it – but I won’t make it to get a Pink aura for my Warrior that has a golden theme.
Either I can dye it or I’m not going to waste 2k gold on it.

I honestly am baffled as how a LEGENDARY item went live without having the capacity to be dyed but other – gemstore items can be dyed easily ( see new Ascalonian skins).

I really hope the expansion has more skins than HoT did and that those skins are better. Otherwise we’re going to see a big problem.
GW2 is driven by the desire to gain new skins. If the new skins are bad nobody is going to bother with the content that much. They’ll do it once than drop it.

I hope to all the gods they bother to give us good skins and lots of them in the new expansion.

Tryhard Pants.9745:

I think if Anet designed armor sets in a more more grounded fashion then people would appreciate them more.

I rarely see anyone wearing bladed or leystone armor, except for the light versions. Carapace armor still seems like a favourite, especially the heavy set.

I think Anet went a bit too far out of their way to make the HoT sets stand out. You can’t really combine them very well with other pieces and the full sets feel out of place and impractical.

As for weapons, I rarely see anyone using machined weapons. Sure, the “engineer” style stuff was never that popular in GW2 but man, it just feels like a waste.
Same with chak weapons. I mean, even for my chak themed sylvari I prefer other weapon skins because they just don’t look like actual weapons.
But overall weapons aren’t too much of an issue because we have sets like Gallant, Cavalier or Balthasar that look realistic.

TL;DR: I think Anet should return to the GW1/early GW2 roots of realism. More spikes doesn’t make it automatically better looking! And save those glowing crystals for legendary stuff because otherwise you’re devaluing legendary armor when it comes to looks.

I fully agree with this. I think GW1 had a good balance of realistic sets.
I would far more enjoy more realistic heavy armor sets like Elite Templar, Elite platemail ( from GW1) or Human T3 cultural and Phalanx sets. There’s too few of these in the game.
I feel there are WAY too many spiky/shiny/over the top sets in the game already.

I agree the cap should be raised. It’s a way to reward players who consistently log in and stick with the game for a long time.
Even if you don’t have time to do other things in game that rewards APs, you should still have this small source of AP if you’re loyal to the game.