Guild Wars 2

Ohoni.6057:

Fixed that mistake there, you almost implied there was some literal barrier for entry. Anyone can create a raid and go in. Anyone can go into a cleared instance and map out everything, this isn’t a difficult concept.

There are physical barriers, and there are practical barriers. A practical barrier is STILL a barrier.

There’s always going to be excuses. If people want the loot they can get the loot. If they can’t raid because of “physical barriers” they can shell out some $$ and get gold and buy their way in. IT’s not that hard.

But why have something be hard when you can ask for handouts right?

GreyWolf.8670:

TexZero.7910:

GreyWolf.8670:

Sykper.6583:

GreyWolf.8670:

RoRo.8270:

Raids were advertised as challenging content. Not sure why players feel they need to be catered and have access to everything

Are you ok with the raids not being included in the price of the expansion and you can pay for them separately, then?

They came as part of the package. Don’t know why anyone would want less content for the same price, much like how you get a new TV and they give you extra video cables you don’t need, but might as well have. You can’t ask to get those cables to get taken out of the package. Although you could personally toss them out when you get home, but other customers who get that same TV might want or need them.

“Don’t know why anyone would want less content for the same price…”

This is exactly my point. Everyone paid for the raid but not everyone has access to it.

Walk in by yourself and get put in a map instance with others. Walk in as a premade and get your “elite” mode experience with just your group. Problem solved and everyone gets what they paid for.

Everyone has access to the raid. It’s your choice not to form a group, not to socialize, not to attempt to learn it and to expect to be carried through the content.

The choice not do do something is not the same as the content not being available.

Either you didn’t read my post or you just want to make sure you have something others don’t. I’m not sure which but I’m done.

IT’s good that you’re done but explain to me why is it wrong to have something others don’t?
Why considering you did the activity required to get that thing and those others didn’t.

Ohoni.6057:

I would be fine with Option 1 as part of a solution, but they still need to have access to the existing raid rewards through some reasonable non-raid means. Option 2 would be better than nothing, but frankly I don’t see why most players should have to wait what would likely be a year or more to access the content, as well as incoming players never being able to experience the original version.

My position remains that there should be at least two concurrent difficulty levels to the content, one at or above the current one, one significantly below the current one and balanced to be roughly equivalent in difficulty and logistical management as existing dungeon content, with the easier version providing a lower quantity of reward, but still retaining a path to the Envoy armor to players who are not suited for the existing raids.

they still need to have access to the existing raid rewards through some reasonable non-raid means.

This cracks me up – it’s the best thing I’ve read in years. You’re contradicting yourself so bad it hurts.

access to raid rewards through non-raid means. Why? Why would they do this? The rewards they put in RAIDS were put there to be obtained through RAID means. That’s why they are RAID rewards and not just generic rewards placed elsewhere in the game. Is it so hard to comprehend?

If they wanted people who don’t raid to have raid rewards you would have seen them for sale at other vendors for stuff like map currency and whatnot. They’re IN THE RAID because you’re supposed to get them BY RAIDING.

Tekoneiric.6817:

Harper.4173:

The reason you don’t get that in open world PvE is because open world PvE is failproof – so nobody cares what you do or how you do it.

That aside – why don’t open and cleared raid instances work for you?

Rather than getting someone’s incomplete sloppy seconds it would be nice to get the story also. There is a reason I and many others don’t like to join in parties with others. It’s not about not wanting to improve or to get that reward that high strung raiders need to feel special it’s about wanting to access story content and maps without having to deal with party dynamics.

Every single time I go into environments dungeons with a party it’s the same. I end up regretting it because the party leader throws a fit when I zig when they wanted me to zag. There is a video floating around out there showing a kid freaking out at a PC, yelling and banging at his keyboard. I imagine the high strung gamers in dungeons and raids acting the same way when another player doesn’t zig when they wanted them to zag.

I don’t have the ascended or legendary equipment, it’s not that big deal to me. I may get it one day; I may not, it doesn’t matter to me. I don’t need that legendary back piece to feel good about myself. I go in GW2 to relax, get rid of work stress and generally have a good time. In PvE if I encounter something I don’t complete/defeat I put it aside and come back at it when I feel like it. It would be nice to have access to the story in those maps so that I get those missing chapters. Raid locking story content was a horrible idea for ANet.

If they had given raiders exclusive access for a short time as raids into a new area then moved them to open world it wouldn’t be a big deal. IMHO beta maps should be raided first then moved to open world maps so raider can move onto the next beta maps. 6 months exclusive access for raid groups would be fine. They could reward the raider with special stuff and titles. In between beta maps they could give raiders staged non-story training maps.

Are you for real?
Incomplete? The instances are complete -every bit of lore is there for you the person coming in just as it is for the group that clears. EVERY bit.

You want everything handed to you – but you forget this is an MMO. It will by definition have sub-par single player experiences because it is not a single player game. The devs have already accommodated you to a large extent allowing you the same access to lore without having to find 9 other people ( you only need ONE opener) and without having to do the fights at all.

At best the most they should do and waste their time doing is give you the chance to open your own fully cleared instance. That’s it. You want more than that? How about you work for it.

And your vision of players is twisted. I don’t freak out when you zag if I want to zig. I kick. It saves us both a lot of trouble.

You also fail to understand that generating content means keeping the content after you generated it.
Sure – I’ve had a lot of Forsaken Thicket but after I’m done with it other new players will join and get into raiding and might want to experience it – but won’t be able to if you make it open-world.

Just because you can’t have something doesn’t mean you have to ruin it for those who can have it – especially since the only thing keeping you from it is your self-imposed stance of not wanting to do it the way everyone else is doing it.

Blaeys.3102:

I am glad this conversation is taking place in the general forums rather than the raiding subforum. That allows for greater input from both sides.

To add a few of my points (opinion, btw) from other threads related to this topic -

• Yes, the story in raids is minimal but it is still there and, as the introduction to the next story line (presumably), constitutes an important story step that players interested in story should be able to participate in.

• Simply entering a cleared instance, reading a few notes or watching a video isn’t the same as EXPERIENCING the story as the hero, which is sort of the point of story in GW2 in the first place.

• Almost no one is saying the reward from a lesser difficulty version of the raid should be on the same level as that received from the harder core version.

• The PVE player community is definitely torn over this issue – so many of us believe a compromise should be made.

• It isn’t – and has never been -about taking anything away from anyone. It is just passionate players (who may not have the skill or time to invest in hardcore raids) wanting to be a part of the ENTIRE story.

Again, really glad this is in the general subforum. If a dev sees this, please keep it here rather than moving it like the last thread on this topic. Both sides are more adequately represented here.

The thing is that entering a cleared instance is enough in my opinion for people who haven’t worked towards being able to raid and kill bosses.
If you want to feel like “The hero” that killed the bosses – you might as well improve, start raiding and actually kill them the normal way.

I don’t think it’s worth it for Anet to make an “EzPz” mode for Raids because honestly I doubt there’d be enough people to run that mode – considering it should give no rewards.

Last time this discussion was up under a different form – when we asked for a hardcore mode for dungeons – Anet said pretty much No – and all casuals banded together and said “let’s not give an inch to those filthy elitist hardcore players”.

So you see the problem.

Also – when you say “compromise” – what do you mean? What do you give for what you gain?

Raiders have to give up and accept that there’s an “EZ mode raid now” but what do casuals give up to get this? I think the word compromise is being used as click-bait here.

Tekoneiric.6817:

Harper.4173:

Astralporing.1957:

Yargesh.4965:

There is no half way to meet at.

So, if no compromise is possible, you are saying that people should argue to stop further Raid development and nerf current raids, instead of trying to find a solution that would leave Raiders with their content?

I think he’s saying – and I’m certainly saying – that people should just stop trying to weasel their way into raid rewards without actually putting in the time and effort required to get them.

I don’t know why people keep thinking that. This isn’t about the rewards it’s about access to story content and exploring maps. Access to content is rewards in themselves. If I ripped several chapters out of a novel and handed you what was left of the book how would you feel?

I know there are parties and work arounds to get to the content but the fundamental thing is that raids are designed to block single players from content. Not all players want to join up with others in tight nit parties. Many of us are lone wolfs for the most part that enjoy roaming maps and only working with other players on events. Every single time I’ve tried to join a party in a dungeon it makes me regret doing so. I expect raids are worse because of the demand that other players have the best armor and weapons.

One time I went into a dungeon with one party only to have them jump to another part of the dungeon then start freaking out because I didn’t know they were doing so. They started frantically drawing on the radar view and griping in chat. I get enough stress at work. I don’t need that in the environment I use to relax in. I left the dungeon with them PMing me for leaving. I don’t want to play with high strung players period. You rarely ever get that behavor in open world PvE.

The reason you don’t get that in open world PvE is because open world PvE is failproof – so nobody cares what you do or how you do it.

That aside – why don’t open and cleared raid instances work for you?

Ashen.2907:

Harper.4173:

Ashen.2907:

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

curtegg.5216:

Solution is way more simpler than what was proposed above. Simply remove the time-gates and add tier loot based upon the time the raid takes down the boss.

Simple. Elegant. I like it.

Doesn’t work because there’s no value to the “limit” placed unless you get absolutely nothing after a certain time and if that’s the case then you’re back at square one. So either the lazy gain rewards or the elite overprofit. This model hasn’t worked well in other games either.

Having a baseline reward for completing the raid at all, and improving rewards for improved time could work.

There is nothing, “lazy,” about less, “elite,” players spending hours grinding their way through content that other players can complete in a fraction of the time.

It is also not, “overprofit,” for a skilled team to earn greater rewards for performing better at the raid.

No. Because what you’re looking at is the integrity of the system from an honest vantage point. Players aren’t honest though, take the “elite players”, throw in some gold for the run, give the lesser players the ability to get through the thing for “base” rewards, and voila you’ve got an overprofit problem on two ends.

That’s exactly how it works in almost every system where there is someone who can profit off of another person’s ineptitude and that person can profit off of their professionalism. Let’s say that we have a team of 8 players who are OP, they know their stuff, and they can easily earn mid-level rewards by themselves and then you have the two who pay to get in to get the mid-level reward and then you’ve got the raid itself.

The elites get mid-level rewards + gold (or whatever the currency they want) and the “less than useful” get more rewards than the honest casual team because of the set-up. I can guarantee that’ll be the outcome.

As opposed to people paying for a spot in a top end team’s raid group now?

At least the suggestion gives the “honest” lower end players the possibility of experiencing the story (the point of this thread) without gutting the raid for higher end players, or requiring extensive dev resources for complete rework of the raid.

No option is perfect. Your issue with the suggestion is a reality now. The suggestion doesnt add it, in fact it reduces the possibility by making access to the story easier for players disinclined to pay someone else to play for them if they can do it themselves.

How can they not experience the raid story in a cleared instance?

How demanding would it be for the devs to give EVERYONE the chance to open a fully cleared instance at any time?

There are solutions already in the game – and there are OTHER easier solutions out there – read what I wrote.

Part of the story in the action adventure genre is the act of defeating the foe. An instance without foes is lacking part of the story.

So, if the suggestion of scaling rewards to completion time were implemented, and casual non-raider types took four hours to complete the instance, earning zero current raid exclusive rewards, but perhaps some coin, or other dungeon type rewards, what would the harm be?

And to repeat, the idea is that only people able to defeat the raid in the current live time frames would have access to raid exclusive rewards. Those making lesser times would NOT get raid exclusive skins, etc.

I still don’t see how beating any of the bosses provides story or lore. I’ve killed all of them – there’s nothing there IMO.

I would love to tell you but if I did you and others might figure out a way to go around it. Suffice it to say is that it works and people can’t really fake it. Not without being spotted at least.

Regardless of how “good you are” people have a right to post their own requirements for their groups. And they have a right to filter you – even if their requirements are absurd by your standards or by any standards.

By sneaking into the group you are doing something I can’t accept. Regardless of whether you’re good or not.

Like I said – I won’t tell you how I’d catch you because I don’t want you or others to find a way to go around it. Suffice it to say I would.

Ashen.2907:

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

curtegg.5216:

Solution is way more simpler than what was proposed above. Simply remove the time-gates and add tier loot based upon the time the raid takes down the boss.

Simple. Elegant. I like it.

Doesn’t work because there’s no value to the “limit” placed unless you get absolutely nothing after a certain time and if that’s the case then you’re back at square one. So either the lazy gain rewards or the elite overprofit. This model hasn’t worked well in other games either.

Having a baseline reward for completing the raid at all, and improving rewards for improved time could work.

There is nothing, “lazy,” about less, “elite,” players spending hours grinding their way through content that other players can complete in a fraction of the time.

It is also not, “overprofit,” for a skilled team to earn greater rewards for performing better at the raid.

No. Because what you’re looking at is the integrity of the system from an honest vantage point. Players aren’t honest though, take the “elite players”, throw in some gold for the run, give the lesser players the ability to get through the thing for “base” rewards, and voila you’ve got an overprofit problem on two ends.

That’s exactly how it works in almost every system where there is someone who can profit off of another person’s ineptitude and that person can profit off of their professionalism. Let’s say that we have a team of 8 players who are OP, they know their stuff, and they can easily earn mid-level rewards by themselves and then you have the two who pay to get in to get the mid-level reward and then you’ve got the raid itself.

The elites get mid-level rewards + gold (or whatever the currency they want) and the “less than useful” get more rewards than the honest casual team because of the set-up. I can guarantee that’ll be the outcome.

As opposed to people paying for a spot in a top end team’s raid group now?

At least the suggestion gives the “honest” lower end players the possibility of experiencing the story (the point of this thread) without gutting the raid for higher end players, or requiring extensive dev resources for complete rework of the raid.

No option is perfect. Your issue with the suggestion is a reality now. The suggestion doesnt add it, in fact it reduces the possibility by making access to the story easier for players disinclined to pay someone else to play for them if they can do it themselves.

How can they not experience the raid story in a cleared instance?

How demanding would it be for the devs to give EVERYONE the chance to open a fully cleared instance at any time?

There are solutions already in the game – and there are OTHER easier solutions out there – read what I wrote.

Linken.6345:

DGraves.3720:

Ashen.2907:

curtegg.5216:

Solution is way more simpler than what was proposed above. Simply remove the time-gates and add tier loot based upon the time the raid takes down the boss.

Simple. Elegant. I like it.

Doesn’t work because there’s no value to the “limit” placed unless you get absolutely nothing after a certain time and if that’s the case then you’re back at square one. So either the lazy gain rewards or the elite overprofit. This model hasn’t worked well in other games either.

No reason at all that they should get nothing after a certain time mate.
If they get 1/5 or 1/10 of the full reward, why do you care if you can get the full reward?

Because being bad should not be rewarded.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

Well, im glad option 1 seems to have gained popularity at least, it seems to be something ive noticed alot of forum posts suggest in the past so my reasoning was, giving 2 types of compramises allows non raiders to enjoy that content aswell.

Exclusivity, is not something of a motto that GW2 was ever made for, GW2 has always been about “everyone” being able to do something.

I do not think that actual raiding needs to be nerfed at its current form just so that it becomes a joke, I appriciate, you raiders want a challenge, and you want your loot.

I dont think thats a bad thing to want.

What I dont think is fair, is that if I want to fill in the blanks between S2 and 3, I should not have to Youtube someone elses playthrough, I should be allowed to experience that story for myself.

I do think its reasonable to say, people who want to keep up to date with the lore, have a right to want to, even if that lore feels small or minor.

Theres a reason Aether Path in TA is rarley done, and yet many wanted to do it, tying content exclusivity to gameplay that only a few can access, simply put, sucks.

GW2 was always about “everyone being able to do something” – that’s very true. And anyone can do “something” – but not everyone can do everything – which is basically what you want and should never happen.

Exclusivity is relevant in GW2 as it is in ANY MMO. GW2 promised no gear-grind and no exclusivity based on vertical progression – it never said it would not have exclusive skins that are skill-gated.

Also I don’t remember GW2’s advertisement ever saying you can do and have everything regardless of what your skill is. And I know my GW2 advertisement pretty kitten well.

Have you actually tried joining a cleared instance?

Danikat.8537:

I’m another non-raider. I keep saying I may try it at some point but I’m highly unlikely to be any good at it if I do.

I think the only acceptable suggestion would be your Option 1.

Except I’d actually take it further: Make it work like the story instances so it can be completed by 1 person alone, or by a group of up to 10 (or whatever a normal raid group is).

And then remove all raid specific rewards, achievements, mastery tracks and points, legendary components, anything you can currently only get within the raid. If there are any drops it should be normal champion bags and other open-world drops, stuff you can get anywhere.

If you genuinely just want to play through the storyline then you’ve got exactly what you want. If you want the raid rewards then you do the raid.

I’d actually love that because I do want to see the story, and I want to see it in a format where I’d feel free to watch cut scenes instead of skipping them as quickly as possible to make sure the run is “efficient”, to talk to NPCs and explore any dialogue choices etc. I do want some of the raid rewards too (specifically the mini pets) but I accept that I need to actually complete the content to get them.

This is actually decent – but how is it much different than a cleared instance?

There is no fantastic lore that the fights themselves contain – so what would be the point?

A cleared instance gives you: Access to all the lore and no rewards – and it doesn’t require more developer time.

I believe a solution for lore-lovers would be if Anet allowed anyone to open a cleared raid instance at any time.

Astralporing.1957:

Yargesh.4965:

There is no half way to meet at.

So, if no compromise is possible, you are saying that people should argue to stop further Raid development and nerf current raids, instead of trying to find a solution that would leave Raiders with their content?

I think he’s saying – and I’m certainly saying – that people should just stop trying to weasel their way into raid rewards without actually putting in the time and effort required to get them.

vifesprit.3514:

Option 3: a Legendary Dungeon

Adding a dungeon with Story mode (see option 1) and 3 paths that use Raid wings, and TOKENS to do a lengendary armor (but not the same skin as Raid)

Adding a PvP track for this dungeon so PvP players can do a legendary armor too.

Yeah – this is such a good idea. I’m sitting on about 4 stacks of PvP potions I haven’t gotten to use. Let’s do this PvP thing.

Wow.

CaptainVanguard.4925:

Okay, so the raiding community is clearly enjoying raiding, thats fine, I understand that challenging content can be a fun buzz for those that actually want it.

But when that content “does” include story which will probably be brought into season 3 and future updates, I have to disagree that having it exclusivly for the best players, is not healthy for the game.

Not everyone wants to “watch” someone else on youtube play the game “they” paid for in order to enjoy that storyline, so let me give you a compramise:

Two Options:

Option 1: Story Mode

Option 1 focuses on letting players who simply want to experience the actual story of the raid have it given to them on a silver platter. This drastically reduces the difficulty and challenge of the bosses, and gives you no real loot based value so dont expect many if “any” raid pieces of loot, but instead focuses on letting you “experience” the content while your doing it, rather than waiting for a group of welcoming newbies or trainer raids to let you onboard.

This gives those after the story side of content what they want, they dont care about the raid itself, they just want the lore, the story, and that experience that comes with it. Maybe at the end they can get a single loot box containing a collectable piece of raid gear e.g. White Mantle Box which contains a single white mantle weapon the first time you complete the raid on your account in story mode. After that, they have to earn the rest of the gear and git good like the rest of you.

This is a nice little compramise as it lets people who really “want” to experience the raid have an incentive to try, to do it again to get better at it, plus it almost serves as a tutorial, allowing newbies a chance to try out the raid for the first time.

I personally feel this option “would” be the best in some ways, but then lets look at option 2.

Option 2, Nerfing Irrelevent Content:

Okay, so this is the one that im sure raiders will yell at me for even suggesting but I have a confident feeling it will make alot of Majority players happy.

This idea goes down the path that, lets say the next raid is out, well, I doubt that many people will go to a now redundant raid with masteries no longer relevent to new content.

So with that in mind, nerf the raid, nerf it to the ground so that nearly everyone can access that content once it is no longer relevent, make it laughably easy compared to the challenge it once posed.

As a bonus to people that did the entire raid while it was relevent: Grant them a special title they can display and possibly a unique character portrait icon allowing them to brandish the “I did it when it was relevent” card while everyone else actually gets to “do” it when it isnt, and enjoy it at a relaxed rate.

I do not think nerfing content that is no longer relevent to the ground is honestly a sin, its not going to hurt raiders in the slightest who by that point will be busy doing some zhaitan themed raid, or temple of abbadon or what ever new content comes out for them.

Either way, lets meet in the middle, I think you guys can agree that “getting good” or “remaining exclusive” is a toxic attitude and new people “should” be allowed to experience content that is no longer relevent.

Let me give you some options.

Join a cleared instance. During the fights there’s no actual lore to enjoy. Raids can be opened after they are cleared – join an instance and enjoy all the exploration and lore.
This is basically your story mode.

It also gives you no reward – because nobody deserves anything for no effort.

Your story mode suggestion is basically this but “give me free stuff also pls”. No.

Your second suggestion is so bad it shouldn’t even be considered. The whole idea is that Raids are difficult content for hardcore players – something for them to do.
Why would you spend development time making content so you can cater to this crowd and then ruin it by nerfing it. It makes no sense.

There are new people getting into raids every day – there are new players coming to the game and others that start raiding for one reason or another – the content might not be new to me or other “veteran raiders” but it certainly is new for many others.

Why nerf it arbitrarily? It should remain the way it is in order for others to enjoy it as well.

Your “i doubt many people will still do the old raid” is laughable. There are fun skins, fun fights, fun mechanics, and other reasons to do it.
Ask yourself this – why do raiders clear wing 1 and 2 now that wing 3 is out?

Also let’s give an “exclusive reward” that’s basically nothing to veterans while allowing people who weren’t playing then to endlessly complain on the forums about it. Because they could have had it too – but just didn’t play at that time.

Considering how bad that second suggestion was – I don’t want to meet in the middle. But I would like to offer a classic alternative: How about you get good and just raid normally?

OriOri.8724:

Absurdo.8309:

Gunsnroll.2657:

Get the code, ping it, if you have the experience they won’t know, if you haven’t, they will notice.

http://gw2.ninja/chatcodes

This is very annoying for those of us that actually organize pug runs.

And also your absurd requests are very annoying for people who want to go raiding. This goes both ways

Don’t worry – those of us that organize PUGS can tell pretty often if you just took a code off a list. At least I know how to catch people I suspect of this pretty easily.
And it’s very satisfying to kick them too.

Decaying Seart.6793:

I’m currently very upset about the LI request for joining pug squads. The highly-demanding request on LI isn’t fair at all for exp ppl like me who are good but run low on LI. I only started late(in april), but that doesn’t mean I suck. I could understand ppl wanna see high LI for a sense of trust, but it merely hinders the accessibility of the whole content.
It’s reset now. Nearly everyone went inside the wings except me, and the only reason was that I only had 30+ LI. And I have waited for an entire hour.

If you’re really EXP why are you low-LI? Also by whose standards are you good? Your own?

Raids were never meant to be focused around the pugging experience – if you want the full and proper raid experience join a raid guild – prove your worth and get a static group. Then nobody will bother you with LI pings.

Remember that Raiding is a group experience. PUGS will be demanding. Nobody takes chances with people they don’t know – and they’re not obligated to do so.

It’s a classic game of some players not starting early – and now feeling left behind because they didn’t start early – so they’re going to ask the developers to artificially shorten the gap between them and their rewards because they can’t possibly be bothered to do all that work now considering others are so far ahead.

You guys are amazing – keep at it!

Glass gear will always be meta because killing things fast means earning rewards fast. Most people aren’t here to roleplay as a “tank” or “healer” and honestly if you want to do that there’s really nothing stopping you.

maniamsmart.7981:

Let’s Talk Build Diversity

With the multitude of stat sets in the game, everyone still only runs Berserker in PVE. I’d love to see some other stats actually become more viable. I’d love to build a Guardian Healer and Tank, or a Warrior Tank with some damage, or any sort of combinations, but there just isn’t a place for that in the game (excluding raids of course).

The other day I was gearing up my Warrior, and one my friends told me that I should go get some Soldier’s or Knight’s gear, but let’s be real, you really only need Berserker’s. Any group running full Zerk in a dungeon will be quicker at completing it then a group without full Zerk, which sucks, because it encourages everyone to build Zerk. This got me thinking and into a discussion where I thought about why people only run Zerker gear, and here’s what I came up with (there’s probably more, but these stood out).

The Rally System
Because you can just build pure damage, as long as you or someone near you kills the mob, you come back with a substantial amount of health. This allows players to play reckless and go all in without much penalty. I feel like the system needs to be revamped, at least in raids it’s a bit better and you can’t just go full DPS and mindlessly mash your keyboard hoping to rally.

Healing Power Is Broken
Why does it not scale with revive speed? This would encourage people to actually perhaps build it more; maybe allow it to have faster revive speed, or instant revive (maybe too OP, but you’re sacrificing damage for healing so why not?). In general healing power builds don’t feel rewarding because you don’t really ever have an idea of how much you really ARE helping the team or how much you really ARE making an impact. You just see a ton of green numbers.

Out of Combat Healing
Even if you run past a ton of mobs, you won’t die anyway because once out of combat your health shoots up anyway. And even if you do die, then you can have enough power probably to kill and just rally again. Why not make food a requirement to health regen, or having to go near a camp, or something. That would be more interesting IMO, and would require people to build a bit different maybe?

No Need for Threat Control, So No Tanks
The PVE content is already easy, and even if it wasn’t we don’t any major threat control abilities where we can pull mob aggro on the fly whenever we want. And there isn’t a need to even because everything dies so quickly. That’s why we see tanks only really needed in raids, because they CAN control the threat and those bosses don’t die instantly.

Those are just my thoughts and opinions, I may be wrong, but let me know yours. I’ve done a video on this topic where I talk a bit more in depth about the topic with more examples below if you’re interested:
https://youtu.be/zJRfWlgN8BU

What content are you talking about? Do you even play this game?

Just to point this out – I’m part of that group of players that stayed with GW2 for 3 years waiting for this harder content. Many have returned – many others will come.

Just because GW2 didn’t have hardcore content at the start doesn’t mean its entire player base is casuals that dislike that. We’ve waited – and now our day is here.

No Walking.6349:

Anet, I haven’t played GW2 in a while, but after having put almost 3k hours into it over the years I still follow it here on the forums and on Reddit. You’re losing a lot of players because of these two things.

1. Prioritizing balance over fun. Fun > balance, always. I’ve seen you guys nerf things that people were having a BLAST with over and over again for years now simply because a small number of people whined that it was imbalanced (EotM, OS, Capricorn, dungeons, etc). Stop doing this.
2. Catering to the hardcore crowd. What percent of your player-base raids? 10-15 percent? Yet you still pump out tons of content for them and none for your majority player-base. Stop doing this, cater to your big populations, that’s casuals, WvW, and SPvP players.

Just thought I’d let you know, since you seem intent on wrecking this great game more and more with every patch. I’ll be watching, playing other MMOs, as will many others. Hope to enjoy GW2 again some day if you guys can get it on the right path.

Just thought I’d let you know balance is always more important than your “fun”. Because balance is what keeps the game fun in the long run.

Remember how fun those OP classes felt in PvP when they stomped you? That’s why we need balance.

People want experienced teammates because they actually want to clear instead of just fighting it over and over again.

Rednik.3809:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Au contraire, Fractal development is a much slower beast than raids by a lot precisely because raid content doesn’t have difficulty scaling. If their new Fractal content release track record weren’t already proof enough of that, I don’t know what is. Having to balance the entire raid twice for two entirely different groups of players along with the other necessary interface and reward changes is a massive undertaking.

We can see how Blizzard doing exactly same thing for balancing various difficulties for raids, and its not something very different from original encounter. More generous enrage timers, less damage overall, less boss health. Encounters are already balanced and tested, reducing their difficulty requires only some numbers tuning.

Do you realize how much manpower and resources Blizzard has?
Can Anet try to do the same? Yes – will they fail miserably? Absolutely – not because they couldn’t – but because it would take TOO many resources.

We’re talking about the same Anet that basically cancelled Legendary weapons and you want them to do this now?

Also – encounters aren’t balanced by numbers alone – but by mechanics too.
It’s not as simple as you might like.

It is – it has some of the best looking places I’ve seen in the game. The mechanics are fun – the loot is pretty good.

10/10 Raid team. You’ve done a great job!

Zenith.7301:

When will you stop this obnoxious crap. Stop making separate rules for armor. You either stick with revealing for both or covered for both.

This is getting really tiresome. I expect this out of some Korean grindfest.

Not you, a western company.

I definitely want more revealing female armor. Male armor is fine – but female armor should be very revealing and I support making more of it. If you don’t like it – well that’s just unfortunate.

Raids are casual friendly – they don’t take long.
Raids are not no-skill friendly. Which is fine.

Astralporing.1957:

SarahWitter.2317:

The currency exchange is a player driven market and as the gem-to-gold exchange rate has increased, the trading post value of BLC weapon skins hasn’t kept pace. That leads to the common complaint that it feels bad to buy Black Lion chests for gems, because it seems as if they’re full of things that you could have bought more cheaply by converting your gems to gold instead.

It was always bad to buy keys with gems. And it was because chests were in general filled with worthless content, with the few exceptions hidden behind low chance rng.

As they are, they’re only good for gambling addicts, noone else.

SarahWitter.2317:

It’s not our goal to make you feel like a chump for buying chests.

Then change the very idea behind them. More guaranteed good content, less mostly useless thrash and rng.

Gambling is bad, and you should be ashamed to promote it. But of course you aren’t, because it brings cash from naive customers.

Byron.1902:

If you don’t give a guaranteed ticket scrap with each chest you will just kill the interest outright. People don’t like to be taken for mugs and a repair canister, tome of knowledge and a dye is beyond anyone with half a brain’s idea of ‘loot’.

Last result from one of my friends: a booster and two tomes of knowledge. It felt bad even for a map reward. If that was a bought key, it would have been downright insulting.

This is the problem.
BLC aren’t getting people to pay for them and not generating revenue because the drops from them are abysmally bad.

I should be excited when I get a chest – not go “meh – I wonder what junk I’ll get this time around”.

BLC are RNG-boxes done bad. They’re bad by default because they’re RNG boxes BUT these ones are extra bad because unlike other games – where the RNG boxes actually got me excited to open – these ones are just flat out boring.

Boosters? Repair canisters? A Merchant express? Wow. The possibilities really are endless aren’t they?

PopeUrban.2578:

There’s nothing special about a set that can only be acquired by dunking gems in to a slot machine.

Special skins require effort on the part of those that wield them. Special skins are tied to specific pieces of content. Special skins pay out unique rewards for unique challenges.

No part of anything sold in the gem store is special. It’s cannibalizing the efforts of an excellent art team to nickel and dime a user base because Anet continues to lean on the tired excuse that gem store items are “just cosmetic” despite cosmetics being the primary reward mechanism for GW2.

Count the number of armor sets added in the fifty dollar expansion you sold. Count the weapon skins.

Transitioning to an expansion model was something your user based asked for because they wanted to pay you for quality content with a requisite expectation of unique rewards for that content. People wanted an expansion model because they were tired of being excessively pushed toward the gem store to get the vast majority of “rewards” in the game.

The excuse that these items are “merely cosmetic” is not a satisfactory one in the item reward system offered by GW2.

If you continue down this path, you will face another round of poor sales for the next expansion. People did not want expansions tacked on top of an even more predatory microtransaction shop. They wanted expansions so they could support development and spend less on microtransactions.

What you’ve delivered since the release of HoT is content largely bereft of reward, and reward largely bereft of any meaning other than farming gold or whipping out a credit card.

You are abusing your user base to cover a monetization problem you created by not presenting expected value for the price of your expansion. A problem largely created by leaning so hard on the cash shop in the first place.

These items are not “merely cosmetic” because the PRIMARY REWARD PARADIGM OF THE REWARD SYSTEMS THE GAME IS DESIGNED AROUND IS PURELY COSMETIC

The argument you are not selling stats/items falls flat for this very reason. You are selling items with the exact same appeal to the user as those they are encouraged to acquire ingame, and furthermore you are willfully not offering even a tenth of that volume of the core reward mechanism to players to earn by actually taking part in the challenges designed to be rewarding

Players do not want to play content simply to shuffle gold in to a gem trade. Players want to play content to earn rewards. You deliver quality content. The reliance on microtransactions was perfectly acceptable in the old monetization model, as it was your only revenue stream.

However, you did not change revenue streams. You simply tacked an additional cost on to your existing revnue stream, expected everyone to be okay with it, and then were apperantly blind sided when your expansion did not sell as well as expected.

When you tout gliding as a core feature of your expansion and then have the audactiy so tell players on the day on release they can’t actually earn glider skins, but they can pay you gems for them… that sends a clearer message than any collection of pretty words strung together in a forum post.

This weapon set sends a similarly clear message. You care far more about players purchasing gems, directly or indirectly, than you care about the satisfaction of your user base.

As you have illustrated, it is unimportant which method players use to purchase gems, as the end result is the same. Trying to dress it up as a service to players is pure spin, and its not even very well executed spin.

You already have a system in place to cater to people with excess tickets. You specifically designed the black lion skin system to be self adjusting, reward immediate purchase, and control ticket hoarding through scaling up the price of older skin sets.

The problem isn’t microtransactions – I would gladly pay for microtransactions – the problem is that there is very little stuff added even in the gem store.

This game’s biggest lack right now is Armor skins – very few sets have been added since release. HoT added very little – and outfits just don’t cut it really.
I would gladly pay for more armor skins – if they made and released decent-looking ones on the gem store – but they don’t.

I’ve been wearing Human Cultural T3 heavy armor pretty much since release because with the exception of the phalanx armor set there’s really no decent heavy set that’s not over the top spiky or absurd to fit the “heavy knight” archetype.

munki.6402:

STIHL.2489:

But remember, you do play a role if the game does start to die, because you were the one that wanted to exclude people, and told them to get out if they didn’t like it.

+1 Interesting that not even the forum specialist can see the danger of this “gtfo if you can’t hang” attitude that a lot of the consistent posters in the sub spew.

So what attitude would you rather we used to greet people who basically go:

“I paid for this game I’m entitled to clear raids like there’s no tomorrow even though I can’t be bothered to work towards it – pls someone get in here and carry me”.

Raids are hard – they require work – they require 10 people that know what they are doing and that play well together.
That in turn requires gearing properly, building your character properly and training in order to know what to do – what to not do – and how to improve when you’re doing poorly.

All that doesn’t come by just “joining a raid group” that is looking for experienced members – it comes by actually trying to become experienced.

If you’re not experienced why would a group looking for experienced members have you?
And why not make a new group – with NEW players – that aren’t “elitist jerks” and learn the raids yourself. Train – get good – and then teach others if that’s your cup of tea?

STIHL.2489:

Harper.4173:

This is not a sport – you’re right – but there are plenty of playing customers right now.
People leave – it’s inevitable.
Also I have no idea how much you spent on the game but I’m pretty sure you’re not that big of a part of Anet’s income.

I’m just going to talk about this for a small moment.

For the record, I used to spend around 40 a month, 10 a week. Just a small budget of money spent on a game, Nothing much really.

And I have to agree, One person is a drop in the bucket, but it’s never 1 person, it’s all about demographics.

So, just to play for a moment.

Taking a demographic that is hinged on two points, Spending around 40 a month, and Leaving due to the whole Hardcore/Elitism direction Anet is taking with Raids and HoT Content, and opted to follow your advice and Move On

Lets say that demographic of Players made up 1% of the players. A very small group of people no doubt. Well, I believe it was mentioned that GW2 has around 100K unique daily log ins, so 1% of that would be $520K loss a year, or put another way, That means the entire Raid Team’s annual salary, just walked out the door.

I don’t even want to think of how much they just lost if that demographic represents something like 10% of the Paying Clients.

But remember, you do play a role if the game does start to die, because you were the one that wanted to exclude people, and told them to get out if they didn’t like it.

Your speculation only goes one way though.
First of all I’d venture to say that you’re an exception – and that the average GW2 player does not spend as much money a month. I doubt players that spend as much as you do as often as you do form the backbone of this game’s income.

Second of all – in your case Raids are definitely not an option because of the physical issues – however there are players out there that adapt and learn and start raiding.
Not everyone quits just because of Raids.
Some quit, some stay and start raiding – most stay and ignore raids. Some join because of Raids while others come back after quitting because of them.

Your numbers are pretty odd too – you have no idea how many people will walk because of Raids.
I’ve seen plenty of “I quit posts” only to see the people return after a few months. You also assume the same spending rate as yours – which again I believe is abnormally high.

Those things aside – GW2 has lost tremendously more players through the badly designed and poor in content expansion that was HoT.
It was grindy, had very little story, very few new skins, only 4 legendaries and so on. I’d venture to say EITHER of those has lost GW2 more players than the fact that Raids are in the game now.

If Anet is to keep players – they need to improve the content in both quality and quantity.

I play a role if the game starts to die – I play a role if the game gets better – I play a role if the game stays the same. Because I pay for the game and I play the game.
I was the one who wanted to exclude people – sure – but I never told you to get out if you didn’t like it.

I told you to improve, form your own groups and work for it. I understand why in your particular case that isn’t an option. But for the vast majority of players it is – most players can gear properly, use the proper builds and train until they get good at the game and learn the raids.
I’ve been saying it over and over in this thread and others: Can’t find people that will take you into raids? TRY harder. Make a team, set-up a schedule – train. That’s how we all did it.

In YOUR particular case there are options – just that you’re not willing to be bothered with them. I told you – play the TP – earn gold – buy your runs if you want the rewards and legendary armor.

I told people they won’t get a free carry and I stick by that – if you want something – work for it – don’t expect others to come along and get it for you.

Fun fact – what if Raids brought in more people than they made quit? The problem with your speculation is that it is just speculation. Anet has the numbers. You don’t – and neither do I – so let’s not go all fatalist “what if 430924093% percent of the player base left because of Raids?”.

Just so we’re clear – it wasn’t an analogy – it might be overdone but in my case it was exactly how my life went. Sure – it makes for a good analogy – it also happens to be how it is for me.

This is not a sport – you’re right – but there are plenty of playing customers right now.
People leave – it’s inevitable.
Also I have no idea how much you spent on the game but I’m pretty sure you’re not that big of a part of Anet’s income.

Good luck in you future ventures. Remember – it’s nobody’s fault things are the way they are.
Nobody is “toxic” or “entitled” just because they prefer having a better teammate.
Nobody owes you anything – nobody is supposed to help you along – you help yourself.

If you can’t raid – don’t raid. Do other content – earn money – buy your runs – lots of people do. You can play the TP in this game with barely any effort mechanics-wise.
You’re only gated by your own choices.

Don’t worry about it.
I’m just as upset with HoT as the next person – it’s just that I can see their point of view too. They’re trying to push for sales – sometimes they make “questionable” decisions.

What’s most enjoyable for us isn’t necessarily what they want to do.

This is really really sad. The claim that “this set is just special” is – well not my favorite answer.

Could have done better – could have just left it how it was. But no – they had to change it.

It was announced a long time ago – I got quite a few gifts so I never have to do the track.

I didn’t say I agree with Anet doing this – I just explained why it is how it is.
I don’t agree with getting scammed – I hated HoT and I’ve been very vocal about how bad and poor it was. How it was misleading and stunted content-wise.

STIHL.2489:

Harper.4173:

STIHL.2489:

But Let me clue you in, in the last 16 years, the arguments you’re using have not changed, and they are all bull kitten, because you’re trying to tell someone else to have fun on your terms, and it never works like that. Never.

I’m not telling anyone to do anything.
I’m telling this – I want to play with certain people that make the experience fun for me – I don’t care what others do as long as they don’t interfere. I don’t even care if you have fun or not. Or what you do.
I’m not telling anyone how to have fun or on what terms. I’m trying to have fun on MY terms. Is that a problem for you? Don’t play with me. Is it that hard?

There’s no point in telling us your “extended MMO history” – I pretty much assumed it from your posts.
Long-time genre veteran that was once good or “top dog” at the games he played but now has fallen behind in this game because of reasons. And is upset about it – wants to get back into it but people won’t have him because he wasn’t there from the get-go.
I wish I could say I feel for you – but if you truly are as experienced in MMOs as you think you are you should have known that not being there on raids day one would be a bad idea.

Actually, you could not be further from the truth if you tried, I’m older now, and I have the starting stages of arthritis (as well as other problems) with my hands, which means it hurts to try and play twitch based games, I can still pull off that epic encounter once in a while, but it causes me physical pain to do so and I need to rest my hands after and often can’t really play for a few days after the fact.

That is why I realize how stupid I was to say what you’re saying, all those years ago, I never took the time to realize that there were other players out there, people with hurdles that I had no idea what they are were dealing with. Some people for love of the game, suffer pain, they deal with disabilities, they struggle against their own bodies just to try and have some fun, playing an MMO. What a total scum bag I was to tell them to learn to play, and laugh when they felt that they should be allowed to enjoy the game equally to me, I put in the time and effort to be good, how dare they. Only took me 12 years to develop some minor physical problems to get that wake up call, and realize how foolish and greedy I had been over something so worthlessly insignificant.

I suppose I should have known better, I was you at one time, and I think back now over the years, of what others said to me, as I now say to you, and the cycle will be, what it will be.

You lose nothing if the game is made to be inclusive, yet others loose so much if the game is built to be exclusive, but some of us, in our childish desire to placate out our own greed and vanity, in of all things, a game, just can’t see that any game is a better game, when people feel included.

Go enjoy your raid.

Yeah. I found your problem.
You have a physical problem that is preventing you from being able to play Guild Wars 2 at the optimal level required for raids. There it is.
It’s not your fault – nor does fault matter. What matters is that people will want you to perform up to par regardless of your real life issues.

I’ve had my share of physical issues – that’s really no big deal or an excuse. It’s prevented me from doing demanding sports like soccer and such when I was younger. And I didn’t blame others for not wanting to play with me because I knew I was a very poor player and a detriment to any team.
You know what I did? I accepted the situation – made peace with it and quit playing soccer.

What I didn’t do is call people “elitist entitled jerks” simply because they wanted to play without a team-wide handicap.

What I’m saying is not stupid. It’s the cold hard truth. Sometimes no matter what you want or how you feel you just can’t make the cut – sometimes it’s because of how you’re born – other times it’s a random act of chance that prevents you. This is called tough luck – we all face it one way or another.

Some people have arthritis and can’t raid. That doesn’t mean they’re entitled to have others carry them or accept them if they can’t perform.

Just because life deals you a bad hand doesn’t mean everyone else has to bend over backwards to make your time in a game ( or any other passtime) more enjoyable.
If you can – do it – if you can’t – find something else.

This is what I did – and I did it because being a bother to others is not what I want to do.

So don’t lecture me about physical issues and what difficulties arise from them – I am too well aware. It is not an excuse to feel entitled to other player’s time and effort.

I suppose I should have known better, I was you at one time, and I think back now over the years, of what others said to me, as I now say to you, and the cycle will be, what it will be.

You weren’t me. And you aren’t me now.
You and I think very differently. The cycle has already been for me – I know the other side of it too. It’s still not an excuse.

aelfwe.4239:

Cristalyan.5728:

I read here on the Forum that a 3% of the WoW players do raids. I don’t know the exact number of the WoW accounts, but I suppose 5 millions can be an OK estimation. So, 3% from 5 kk means around 150 k raiders in WoW.
Let’s see an Anet statement (around 2 months ago) – they stated that in a month they had around 3 millions logins from GW2 accounts. That means around 100 000 per day. We can safely suppose that this is the hard core of the player base – the players logging daily into the game.
Again Anet – they stated (2 months ago) that the number of HoT licenses sold up to that date was between 300 – 400 k.
And now:
1. Considering that all the daily logins were from HoT owners, that means Anet lost already around 75% from the HoT buyers. But that 100 k per day does not means only HoT owners – that means HoT owners + F2P + nonHoT payed accounts. That means the HoT owners logging in the game is less than 100k. So Anet lost even more than 75% from the HoT buyers. This is the first conclusion.
2. Anet states that the percentage of raiders in GW2 is better than in other games. Using WoW as a reference (3%) we can say that more than 3% of players raids in GW2. How much more?? Unknown. Let’s suppose 5%. This 5% from 100 k players, translated in numbers, means around 5k raiders. Compare with 150k in WoW.

You are comparing the 3% of the total number of wow active account (5M) vs the 5% of the daily logs of gw2 (100k)

That’s the moist fail attempt to math and deal with statistics of the human history

He must do his statistics casually.

STIHL.2489:

But Let me clue you in, in the last 16 years, the arguments you’re using have not changed, and they are all bull kitten, because you’re trying to tell someone else to have fun on your terms, and it never works like that. Never.

I’m not telling anyone to do anything.
I’m telling this – I want to play with certain people that make the experience fun for me – I don’t care what others do as long as they don’t interfere. I don’t even care if you have fun or not. Or what you do.
I’m not telling anyone how to have fun or on what terms. I’m trying to have fun on MY terms. Is that a problem for you? Don’t play with me. Is it that hard?

There’s no point in telling us your “extended MMO history” – I pretty much assumed it from your posts.
Long-time genre veteran that was once good or “top dog” at the games he played but now has fallen behind in this game because of reasons. And is upset about it – wants to get back into it but people won’t have him because he wasn’t there from the get-go.
I wish I could say I feel for you – but if you truly are as experienced in MMOs as you think you are you should have known that not being there on raids day one would be a bad idea.

Let’s break some things down shall we?

STIHL.2489:

Complete Access to the game I paid for. In case you missed this, I paid for this game, and the Expansion that went with it. Any Skill, Any Time Investment is nothing, compared to cold cash that keeps their lights on.

You have this – you can access any part of the game – Including raids- right now.
Open up your squad – make a squad – enter raid. See how easy that was? You can access the raid even as one person.

What’s that? You need 9 others to complete? Well there’s a problem.
You paid your cold hard cash to Anet and in turn they have provided you with access to the raid and the raid itself. You need more people though.
Unfortunately the vast majority of players do not work for Anet so the fact that you paid Anet doesn’t mean anything to me or them.
If you want 9 other experienced players pay them the same way you paid for the game to get access to Raids.
There are groups out there that sell raids – go ahead and get yourself a full clear.

STIHL.2489:

If Anet does not want to make content for it’s Paying players like me, or wants to cater some other group, then they can expect me to stop paying into this game, Hope you all pick up the slack.

Go ahead – don’t pay for the game – others will. You’re not the be-all end-all of GW2’s player base.

But, yah, I am entitled to Full Access to the Gear, Content, and Aspects, in a way that I enjoy, and if that means I don’t want to deal with elitist jerks, then so be it.

This part is just made up. You are entitled to the game – you own it – you play it. However you are playing a game with other people that don’t have to move an inch or lift a finger to do anything to improve your playtime.
Remember – you paid Anet your money – not the other players. We’re not your employees.
If you don’t want to deal with elitists – don’t – just find other people out there and do your thing.

STIHL.2489:

if you thought your investment into this game meant anything, you’re wrong, your skill is pointless, your time spent is worthless, the only thing that matters is dead presidents, which is something I had been providing.

Time and skill obviously matter because they gate some of the content in the game(time gated crafts for example or skill-gated raid rewards). If you think they don’t matter that’s your opinion but it’s wrong.
Also – if you want people to care about you or for your enjoyment to matter to them perhaps start providing them with these “dead presidents” and maybe your odds will improve.

If they want me to keep providing, they better start to build stuff that makes me feel like a special kittening snowflake.

Perhaps you alone are not so important to Anet after all. Or perhaps you should learn that not everything revolves around you.

Oh – you paid for GW2 and HoT? So did everybody else – why are you special again?

STIHL.2489:

Because, remember this well, I don’t owe them, or you a kitten thing, I don’t care how much you love raids, if what they make is not making me happy, I am not going to support your game mode with my money. Keep that in mind the next time you’re swiping the credit card, make sure to buy a whole lot more to cover what I’m no longer buying.

Sure -ok – no problem. Do you honestly think you’re single-handedly supporting the game here?

If you’re not happy – move on. The door is always open. If you decide to stay though you might want to realize that nobody is under any obligation to make your feel special and unique and make sure you have fun.
You have paid Anet – for access to the game (which you have) – you have’t paid the other players in the game though.

STIHL.2489:

I was raiding 15 years ago in EQ when death could cost you levels, and people could loot/kill steal. Blah, Blah, Blah, I all that and a whole bag of chips, look at how great I am, or some such.
Let me clue you in friend no one cares.

I care – I care about the time I put in. Putting in the time then means I have it easier now.
If you didn’t put in the time then it will be harder. It’s not my fault people weren’t there on raid day one.
I didn’t say that I raided on day 1 to brag – I said it to explain WHY I have it easy now. I have it easy because I’ve been doing it a long time.

I should also have the right to choose who I play with, and a part of that, should not be being forced to deal with egotistical elitist entitled jerks that think they are better then other people.
But sadly, Raids cater to that very exact demographic. Starting to see the problem yet?

You do have the right to choose who you play with – and as long as that right still respects mine you’re free to go about your business.
Being “forced to deal with egotistical elitist jerks” is just part of the “finding people” problem.
By your logic I have the similar right to not have to do with “carebear newbie beginners” that think that I owe it to them to play together.

There is no problem – you’re making it into one by showing up and demanding people want to play with you.

munki.6402:

Razor.9872:

munki.6402:

Harper.4173:

The Zealous Templar.3861:

Thank you for clearly showing the problem here, see, anyone that wants to raid, has to deal with 9 other entitled jerks to do the content. See the problem now?

Or they could find like-minded people of which there seem to be plenty of on these forums and play with them instead? (Pretty obvious why they don’t want to do that but that’s a different matter).

If your “problem” is group content then MMO’s aren’t the genre for you, there are plenty of single player games where you don’t have to interact with anyone. Expecting an MMO to relinquish its group content is amongst the dumbest things you’ve said.

No – they can’t. Do you know why? Because somehow in the way he sees it if an inexperienced or new player wants to do the content I’m doing I’m somehow obligated to take him along and help and teach him.

In his confusion he’s mistaken me for a tutorial system that Anet never made. Because my playtime, satisfaction or enjoyment of the game don’t matter – what matters is that “new players get into raids lel”.

The raids are there – you can open them anytime.
The LFG tool is there – you’re free to use it.
The forums are here – you can look for a guild ( or use reddit, or google).

You have the tools to fix your problem – but do it yourself – don’t expect others to.

Wow … message received. I will continue to stay away from raids.

You don’t have to stay away from raids out-right. Just be sure to not join groups that are grouping for an experienced-only kill — unless you reach a point you are experienced yourself. You can do this by forming your own practice/teaching/learning runs, or joining a guild that is specialized towards such things.

Just try to think in their shoes; imagine that you are only really rewarded for beating something challenging, and need 9 other people to help you do it. You only have a couple hours to get it done, and success depends entirely on the competency of your group. So you post in lfg for people who can be on “your level” and beat the boss in 1-6ish tries. However, despite posting for those experienced, people join you who may not even know all the mechanics. You really don’t have the time to explain how everything works — you advertised for a group that could hit the ground running. So you kick that person or whatnot, and are called out for being “an elitist jerk.”

That is not to say there are not elitist jerks out there, but the problem is a two-way street.

I appreciate your response and I do not join such groups. But I simply don’t have time for this kind of vitriol, so I will opt to stay away.

So if I make a group that looks for experienced players and an inexperienced player joins – kicking him is somehow vitriol? Wow.

munki.6402:

Harper.4173:

The Zealous Templar.3861:

Thank you for clearly showing the problem here, see, anyone that wants to raid, has to deal with 9 other entitled jerks to do the content. See the problem now?

Or they could find like-minded people of which there seem to be plenty of on these forums and play with them instead? (Pretty obvious why they don’t want to do that but that’s a different matter).

If your “problem” is group content then MMO’s aren’t the genre for you, there are plenty of single player games where you don’t have to interact with anyone. Expecting an MMO to relinquish its group content is amongst the dumbest things you’ve said.

No – they can’t. Do you know why? Because somehow in the way he sees it if an inexperienced or new player wants to do the content I’m doing I’m somehow obligated to take him along and help and teach him.

In his confusion he’s mistaken me for a tutorial system that Anet never made. Because my playtime, satisfaction or enjoyment of the game don’t matter – what matters is that “new players get into raids lel”.

The raids are there – you can open them anytime.
The LFG tool is there – you’re free to use it.
The forums are here – you can look for a guild ( or use reddit, or google).

You have the tools to fix your problem – but do it yourself – don’t expect others to.

Wow … message received. I will continue to stay away from raids.

I’m glad to see that instead of understanding what I wrote and trying to put it in practice you have decided to take the easy route and just not do it.
Because telling people to work for themselves is a surefire way to make them understand to stay away from the content.

If it does – it will drive sales. If it doesn’t it will drive sales because “balance and variety”.
The game lacked challenge before elite specs. HoT brought raids – which are a good source of challenge.
Fractals were sort-of nerfed though – so there’s that.

Did you do some PvP as well?

That aside – I get what you are saying Pope but a new class sells better than more elite specs.
Plus – having ONE elite spec that’s unlocked via the expansion really works well in their favor now.

Are elite specs stronger than core specs? Sure.
Want to get stronger? Buy HoT. The side-effect of lack of more elite specs is lack of balance skewed towards the benefit of HoT owners. Which means more pressure on people to get HoT – more sales – more money. It isn’t really that bad.

Plus a new class builds more hype and drives more sales on top of what I’ve described above.

From a business point of view they REALLY nailed this one.
I know people like to think games are about “perfect balance” or “fun” or “experiencing diversity” -and to some extent they are – but at the end of the day they are a product that is being sold by a company for a profit.

The Zealous Templar.3861:

Thank you for clearly showing the problem here, see, anyone that wants to raid, has to deal with 9 other entitled jerks to do the content. See the problem now?

Or they could find like-minded people of which there seem to be plenty of on these forums and play with them instead? (Pretty obvious why they don’t want to do that but that’s a different matter).

If your “problem” is group content then MMO’s aren’t the genre for you, there are plenty of single player games where you don’t have to interact with anyone. Expecting an MMO to relinquish its group content is amongst the dumbest things you’ve said.

No – they can’t. Do you know why? Because somehow in the way he sees it if an inexperienced or new player wants to do the content I’m doing I’m somehow obligated to take him along and help and teach him.

In his confusion he’s mistaken me for a tutorial system that Anet never made. Because my playtime, satisfaction or enjoyment of the game don’t matter – what matters is that “new players get into raids lel”.

The raids are there – you can open them anytime.
The LFG tool is there – you’re free to use it.
The forums are here – you can look for a guild ( or use reddit, or google).

You have the tools to fix your problem – but do it yourself – don’t expect others to.

STIHL.2489:

Harper.4173:

People hate raids because they are incapable of forming up groups and working towards success.
They want to get in with already existing “good” groups that have put in the time and effort and have an easy time.
Except the people that have worked hard don’t want new/inexperienced players in their groups – and for good reason.
Somehow – not wanting to take people that haven’t worked hard to earn their place is being toxic.

You bought this game? sure. Are you entitled to be able to play anything inside definitely.
Does that mean 9 other people are obligated to have you with them and play with you if they don’t want to? No.

Because everyone bought this game – and everyone has a right to play it the way they see fit. Even if it means playing it without you.

You want to not get hassled? Find 9 other people that want you or try to solo the content.

Thank you for clearly showing the problem here, see, anyone that wants to raid, has to deal with 9 other entitled jerks to do the content. See the problem now?

Your claims are beyond absurd.

Just because I want to play the game a certain way makes me an entitled jerk?

Let me clue you in friend – I was there on raid release. I put in countless hours into VG, then Gorse, then Sab and so on. I learned, I improved, I got better. We all did.

I have a right to choose who I play with -and I choose to play with people that worked hard just like me – not ones that joined late and expect to be carried.

The only problem here is people thinking they’re entitled to being part of any group just because they want to.

Just because we play the same game doesn’t mean I have to play with you. Just because you want to do what I do doesn’t mean we can do it together.
You can’t force yourself into groups and nor should you be able to.

If you find a group that wants to carry you? Great – go for it. I won’t – and neither will most other raiders.

You want to train? Great – join a raid guild – ask for guidance – join their practice runs – it’s all out there.

Don’t expect PUGs to carry you though.

Razor.9872:

Harper.4173:

So they should form groups with other people that don’t have insights and want them.
Leeching off others is not nice.

I agree. That is why I purposely provided a relatively low LI code and specifically specified not to do so until there were no roads left to travel. I also considered my audience; the people coming here to the forums are generally more, well, more, than the average player. All this considered, I believe it will help the raiding community (if only slightly) in the long run more than not.

Harper.4173:

There are people out there that have raided since day 1…

Of course there are. But what you may not be considering is these people didn’t have to contend with an LI wall. At that time, everyone was new to everyting and “learning” runs were prosperous and abundant. Now, however, unless you stay on for 12 hours a day, you’d be lucky to see any mention of a training run. Understandably the next step is to create your own, but how much should that be done until one is considered “ready?” Until a kill is earned?

That is near impossible for learning runs nowadays. Trainees come-and-go, and the mechanics have to be re-taught over and over again. There comes a point where “you” consider yourself ready. Maybe you have dropped a boss down to 20% or even 10% in a learning run. But then you have to call it quits because everyone else is. You come back the next day, and can’t get the boss past 90% because you’re having to teach an entirely new group that probably won’t/can’t stay for more than a couple hours.

Look, I agree that the code I provided may be used to get selfish, lazy, freeloaders into groups that otherwise just want to get the kill and move on — and don’t wan’t to have to contend with teaching someone who just isn’t worth it.

However,

I also believe that said code could help a lot of people get un-stuck from the situation described above. I guess it is a matter of how kittenty one views people in general. I’d like to think that doing so will eventually expand our little raiding community for the better — even if just a little.

Being there on day one means dedication. You should be rewarded for it.
Of course going to collage when you’re 20 is easier than when you’re 40.
There’s a timing for everything – if you miss out that’s just how it is. I don’t understand why people expect things to be different.

You’re looking at the problem wrong too. If you want to beat the raids you need to form a static group.
You train with them – meet them on a schedule and keep going.
You get the boss down to 80% today , 60% tomorrow, and so on until a kill. Then move on to the next boss.

You can’t PUG raids from day 1. You can pug raids if you’re already good at raids but if you want to learn you have to do what everyone else did on day 1 – make a team, stay with that team and practice.

The situation you described above is the same thing as being lazy. This game has PLENTY of raiding guilds that form teams. Make a team – start from scratch – like we all did – get good. The LIs will come.

Just out of curiosity how would you break the existing revenant into 8 distinct elite specs?

People hate raids because they are incapable of forming up groups and working towards success.
They want to get in with already existing “good” groups that have put in the time and effort and have an easy time.
Except the people that have worked hard don’t want new/inexperienced players in their groups – and for good reason.
Somehow – not wanting to take people that haven’t worked hard to earn their place is being toxic.

You bought this game? sure. Are you entitled to be able to play anything inside definitely.
Does that mean 9 other people are obligated to have you with them and play with you if they don’t want to? No.

Because everyone bought this game – and everyone has a right to play it the way they see fit. Even if it means playing it without you.

You want to not get hassled? Find 9 other people that want you or try to solo the content.