Guild Wars 2

Golden.3012:

In fact, the true problem that underlies this concern of lack of diversity is that there is really no need to advance points into either major or grandmaster in zeal or radiance traits. There are two reasons and they cannot be fixed by minor tweaks without having to change the entire guardian paradigm: (1) the traits are selfish and do not synergize well (or shall I say are plain inferior to) with everything that guardians bring to the table through boons (shouts and virtues) and being a damage sponge; (2) the extra stats one get from these trait lines are easily simply not needed/not very useful (i.e. condition duration and condition damage) or easily replaceable.

With more power from zeal, retaliation does more damage. That makes people less likely to attack you or your party, to this end, zeal is not a selfish trait line. You could argue retaliation is not the good way to go, but I think the way all the guardian traits are set up, they intended this to happen. If you want to go retaliadian, you take zeal for the damage, then extra retal granting traits from the other lines to balance your build out.

The GM traits in zeal leaves a lot to be desired, it does have traits for the GS which is the one that has the retal symbol. Overall it has a very target-denial feel towards it with a somewhat stationary playstyle (would kinda be OP if you can target-deny and also be mobile).

I don’t know. Most people seem to hate retaliation enough to not to want a go with this. And me, I still think they should make staff the retaliation weapon and let GS has swiftness. But maybe that’s just me.

Warrior does good support as well. Shout heals and warbanner and you’re good to go. Guardians are overrated.

Allilliawen.7104:

loneknight.8425:

Alfthaton.6832:

Looks like last week really did SBI in. How come we were able to field a decent amount of people during the impossible match of SoR, but now we can’t field 10 people in a borderlands? Hopefully people come to their senses and start playing with us again in WvW soon! This can be a great match!

It’s still early in the week, I’m sure they will join in later

On SBI it’s been well over a month’s worth of drubbings and exodus. Loin’s Gate doesn’t even have a queue any more at peak times. When most of our spawn exits were being camped by scores of SoR last week, even the skeleton crew in SBI BLs gave up the ghost after fighting madly for hours; and then, even the NPC ghosts of Cursed Shores last week camped most of the map when we could barely scrape-up much more than 1/2 dozen players to PvE events.

At it’s worst that kind of spawn camping of a World already on it’s knees does little but kill off the remaining resistance; eventually even dogged players will find better places to be rather than act as a badge camp for the opposition. While playing the under-dog can be fun for awhile seeing so few have your back against stupefying odds day-in-and-day-out sucks the fun out of it.

So it’s not just a question of people not turning up to WvW; but where the people on SBI have all gone to? When someone posted that the LFG for PvE was empty; I checked and then started to feel it looked pretty dire. Maybe those who didn’t transfer decided not to login to PvE either O_o

I started on SBI and had a lot of fun here. The people all seemed nice, and even the last few weeks there’s been some great leadership by the commanders who’ve chosen to remain. It’d be a real waste for SBI to give itself up to ghosts (NPC or otherwise).

Hoping a few more of the stalwarts on SBI do make an appearance for this week’s match; though one could easily excuse no-shows given the past month.

Not trying to downplay your plight. But both Yak and CD had to face Kaineng last week. And it too was spawn camping 24/7. To add insult to injury on what’s left of us on CD, a lot of the Kainengers were ex-CDers. It’s not that big of a deal.

There also exists unblockable attacks. Necro marks can be traited to be unblockable. Thieves are another one.

That depends. Conjured weapons are also generally frowned upon by eles (except using the bow on graveling burrows). Utility slots are a premium across the board, and they have way better alternatives. The same goes for Guardians.

The idea does sound interesting. But if they cannot make the basic minion mechanic good and useful, what makes you think the environmental weapon version would be any different?

Karma Crimzin.5079:

ComeAndSee.1356:

The problem with Guardians right now is their “full potential” is in support / healing builds in WvW. Pure DPS Guardian’s aren’t anymore special than Thiefs or Warriors in terms of front lining, but Support Guardian’s bring a powerful package to the battlefield.

Support Guardians = Boons, lots of group healing, “frontliner”, WoR, Sanctuary/Wall of Lining, and Tome of Courage. <- Huge group support capabilities in WvW.

DPS Guardian = Boons, no group healing, “frontliner”, pulls, and AOE damage. <- No different than any other DPS class.

You are right and that alone make people kind of upset with the guardian most people (namely the ones who play the support end of the guardian) are some what fine with the class and push all the dps aside and tell other to just roll warrior or thief for damage. Guardian should bring something more to the table than just want everyone else in dps does. I mean we have a group wide or more might buff (VoJ traited or EM) but that really doesnt get us anywhere since we still get blown up if we are in a big group of enemies since no matter how “tanky” you are 20+ people will still kill you in 5 seconds.

You can’t have it all.

Danicco.3568:

- Defending Sieges (Guardian 2 × 2 Elementalist)
Guardian: You’re in the same situation as attacking for ranged options, but you can also jump down and fish for kills. Against small groups you can do fine and survive pretty fine, against large groups (and/or coordinated) you’ll playing a high risk low reward scenario. Even if you do get someone down, chances you won’t be able to finish them are high, and you’ll have to trust someone else from your group will be able to finish them from up the walls.
Elementalist: The best situation possible for you. Against small groups you can focus on someone to bring them down quickly, even jumping down and fishing like a Guardian, and against large groups your AoEs will surely hit a bunch most of the time. Killing people on Rams is a must and really easy if they don’t run away. With quicker heals and more healing options than a Guardian, you’re able to stay in combat for longer periods of time.

- Boss Battles against Enemies for Location’s Control (Guardian 2 × 6 Elementalist)
Guardian: These battles are a total mess, and getting down during one means 100% chance of death because no one will probably try to resurrect you. There’s enemies and allies in front, in the back, and to the sides. It’s each to their own here.
Elementalist: You should avoid being in the middle of it, obviously. Playing safe is key here, you can cast your AoEs and you’ll hit people for sure. If someone comes for you, it’s also easy to lose them in the middle of the mess, and if you need, you can use your mobility options to get out of harm’s way.
(This type of battle is rare, but happens when all walls/gates are down in Stonemist Castle for example, and it’s a single massive zerg x zerg inside the center room)

I don’t think you give the guardian enough credits for these 2 scenarios. If it’s just killing rammers, all class can nuke from wall or melee from behind the gate, any pugs can do it. Catapults and such are a little more interesting. Typical scenario involves a portal bomb right behind the siege cluster and while yes, an ele is favorable for this tactic because meteor shower is extra effective against structures like siege weapons, the issue becomes more complicated if the siege weapons are also heavily guarded. This is where sanctuary can help not only to instantly disable a siege, but also to protect DPSers who are trying to destroy it. You really need all 3 profs. Mesmer for portal, ele for offense, guardian for shutdown and blocks.

Lord room battles are also where guardian tomes shine the most. Have a group of guardians chain it one after another and your side will come out on top even if out numbered. You could argue that if you replaced all guardians with staff eles you probably will get a similar result and with less coordination, but really, just how often do you see your meteor shower actually downing someone in those scenarios? People who can’t stay out of fire probably won’t make a difference either way (except maybe contributing to the lag). Healing Rain is also a wholly inadequate healing source when you’re getting open fired on by 3 superior ballistas and 2 superior arrowcarts. Here, again, a mix of professions is important. There’s no better or worse.

IMO the only reason why it’s worth taking over pure of voice is still because PoV is bugged on HtL!.

Or if you have 30 virtues for the 2 consecration traits and resolve trait I guess…

I’ve tried both soldiers and clerics for guardians.

Overall, with clerics you really don’t need to worry about ever dying in AC, as long as you have protection up (use a hammer) you can get swarmed by those small gravelings and still see your health not dropping. Nothing down there except the instajib mobs will be a threat to you, so most of the kiting encounters you can instead tank and spank.

On the other hand, with soldiers, you’ll hit a bit harder, and your retaliation will do more damage, but you’ll have to dodge more as you rely on buffer tanking and a guardian doesn’t have much buffer.

Good suggestions all around. However, I’m sure OP is not satisfied.

At lv 26 you have probably experienced a lot of the weak points of the guardian already. As you level to 80 you may find some of the issues become less of a problem. You’ll hit harder, and you’ll be a little more tough. Your traits will allow you to really specialize and you also have more choice in attribute distribution. However, you’re right to realize that you cannot cast meteor shower, you cannot cast portal, you cannot stealth past veteran guards, your siege blocking bubble is sub-par compared to swirling wind, and the list goes on and on.

There is no comparison, but you should not compare. What you should do though, is to find an organized group that has utilized Guardians as part of their strategy. The Guardian’s tool set makes them very well suited for a force multiplier role. Guardians are also the strongest spike healers. These are all very specialized functions that requires a lot of coordination to pull off. If you look at all the disciplined guilds in WvW, 9 times out of 10 you’ll see Guardians as part of their group make up. They may not be in front DPS’ing, but you’ll see their consecrations, or their elite tomes, or you see that their army is highly resistant to attrition… This list also goes on and on. That’s really what Guardians are about.

Brutaly.6257:

This is somewhat of a dream imo, a guardian without boons would mean a removal of virtues in their current form and also a major overhaul of the majority of our weapons.

The thing is that Arenanet clearly stated that they want a melee centric boon soldier and that we are, as long as we have AH. Survivability without AH and with 1h Sword/scepter is just to low for us to be that boon soldier.

In fact making AH innate would actually increase the opportunities to build around 1h sword/scepter and utilities at isnt boon based. Virtues, choice of runes, choice of sigils would valid options to keep the boon soldier going.

The concept of a boon soldier is intrinsically flawed. Secondly, as the professions are now, elementalists are the closest to what a boon based combat is supposed to be with the phasing of attunements, NOT the mash-button-right-before-you-(re)engage that is the guardian’s or the warrior’s boon style.

The best description that can fit the guardian ATM is a magical soldier with innate fragility, that is overcome by having a larger repertoire of defensive abilities. Said abilities may be boons, it may be something else.

Heck, they reworked hexes into phantasms. They should similarly turn the concept of spirit weapons into a physical manifestation of enchantments that closely follows the caster so they can be a valid replacement of AH spam for a guardian’s self defense (and possibily allow us to target an ally with it so it works for groups too). I assume the current nerf is due to spirit sword and hammer being too aggressive. They should have made it so the spirit weapons hover just beside the target and perform only utility functions (rather than adding straight DPS +CC).

I can’t imagine anyone thinking the bow and shield was ever OP. It would definitely work better as a mobility solution than the suggestion to turn symbols into auras, or to propose any drastic changes to any boons.

Erasculio.2914:

It’s great to see that ArenaNet is updating the Legendaries. There is still hope for the Minstrel and Metereologicus, it seems.

Orbitting satellites with nebulae foodsteps for the meteorologicus and audible music with poetry footsteps for the minstrel.

If they’re going to come late, they have to be the best.

I actually am very grateful that something like Altruistic Healing is made into a trait. Even if currently all alternatives are considered sub-par, at least it opens up the door to a future possibility of spec’ing without an emphasis of, or entirely out of boons.

In GW1 the Dervish could never use anything other than the scythe because for a very long time, mysticism (their primary attribute) basically did what AH does for guardian now, and the scythe is the only weapon that has synergy with it. It basically forced you to only ever use enchantment skills and never anything else. Compare it to the assassin’s primary attribute, critical strikes, which works with every weapon in the game (including the scythe), it allows for a very diverse meta from instajib chains to ranged aoe to melee aoe spam to condition stacking and whatever else.

They later reworked mysticism entirely to removed the self heal on enchant aspect, and though the solution wasn’t the most elegant, at least made the profession less broken. I really do not want to see a repeat of the prohibitive playstyle of having a profession depend on any one mechanic in the game.

Svarty.8019:

Ganzo.5079
We know what is the class problem,

For the uninitiated, the problem is that The Guardian does not fit this description:

Guardian
The Guardian[s] [..] focus on area control and punishing enemies for the position on the battlefield. We want them to feel very powerful when their boons are active, but if those boons are removed, they will start to feel pressure. They can remove conditions more easily than the Warrior, but share the Warrior’s need to be in melee range to dole out maximum damage.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/first#post999247

I think another thing that is worth discussing is the apparent lack of theme Anet has decided to publicize with respect to the guardian.

The guardian class as is does fit the description provided, however, the description is not effective at describing guardians as a whole. I know this sounds weird, but you have to look at the short paragraph critically, and see what the actual content are. Only the first sentence has substance, the others are problematic at best.

“The Guardian[s] [..] focus on area control and punishing enemies for the position on the battlefield.”

- This is correct. Even the scepter fits this description. All it says is that if someone chooses to stand still in any given area, you have an arsenal to punish that person. Do note that this has nothing to do with locking people inside a location (that is usually associated with the term “crowd control”). Area control has always been about forcing people to move.

“We want them to feel very powerful when their boons are active, but if those boons are removed, they will start to feel pressure.”

- This is correct, for all professions. Boons making a character powerful is universal for all classes. Starting to feel pressure when boons are stripped is true for all class that has boons, which is every single class. What we have here is a very conservative statement that fails to provide distinction, as one would expect from these descriptions.

“They can remove conditions more easily than the Warrior, but share the Warrior’s need to be in melee range to dole out maximum damage.”

- This one has two parts. It is talking about the limitations of the profession, not its strength. It is correct in pointing out that guardians has stronger condition removal than the class with the least capability of removing conditions, which is not much, just mediocre. The second part is what most people have mis-interpreted. It does not say anything like “the guardian is a strong melee combatant,” remember this statement is stated as a lack, “share the need of” staying in melee range is basically saying you aren’t going to have the ranged damage capability of rangers. It is a logical leap to link this to being an effective melee combatant (note: Eventhough I do think the guardian is an effective melee combatant, this statement doesn’t imply this fact).

===

What we can glean out of this description? Very little. We got a short sentence about a highly specialized role that has little relevance in most parts of the game. Another sentence that is a general statement for everyone, and a third that tells us what the guardian is not. We can see so much about the writer’s integrity with these sentences that are stated in the negative and weasel words meant to glaze over the lack of content. In other words we are given little more than filler for a supposedly Description Of The Guardian. It leaves much to be desired.

Musty.3148:

Heinel.6548:

It’s unfortunate that a more convincing case isn’t made for homogenized weapons.

A change like this might mean greater versatility at the cost of slightly lower damage or less healing.

Who is wanting homogenization?

No, I don’t think people are suggesting that. They are suggesting (for the most part) changes that make other BUILDS viable, not an increase in the efficiency of currently accepted builds. There should (as you seem to point towards) no sum gain in power. Just a greater availability of options.

But I may have missed a point somewhere, that’s just the way i read them.

EDIT: Ok, I see Ganzo is wanting weapon changes. my bad.

I don’t actually have an issue either way. You have the same characters as I do, so we’re likely working with the same set of information.

The thing that makes guardian different from ele, mesmer, and thief, is that with those three, just about any build will give you a fairly good chance at ganking. Not so for the guardian. The things people are running into right now is that as a guardian, your weapon will declare your role (to a larger extent than those three).

Some people don’t like this. I’d like for them to develop the idea further and see where this could lead to.

It’s unfortunate that a more convincing case isn’t made for homogenized weapons.

I think a lot of people actually are arguing for this (even if they don’t realize it themselves). Bash is ready to take an efficiency decrease in favor of all weapons getting hinder, for example. Never mind that hindering is not needed in PvE and mace is still the premier weapon for rolling through pve with your eyes closed and hands tied to your back.

Then there was also a rather vocal individual who pointed out how guardians have too much healing. He got flamed down quickly, but he did raise a rather interesting point about how guardians are the only profession that is designed around having roles, when other professions aren’t like this at all. (I think Anet actually implicitly admitted this when they were discussing the guardian during BWEs.)

Maybe this is where the lurkers can start chiming in? We need more people to list all the pros and cons of weapons all fulfilling a basic requirement of being a combat option capable of hindering and effective damage. You can equip any combination of weapons and be an effective ganker, given your attributes and traits are balanced. This is similar to other professions such as ele, mesmers, theives and warriors. A change like this might mean greater versatility at the cost of slightly lower damage or less healing.

The question is, why do you want to push the guardian towards this direction?

Ganzo.5079:

Heinel.6548:

Ganzo.5079:

Heinel.6548:

Ganzo.5079:

Heinel.6548:

People who don’t think the class has a problem isn’t going to post about it on the forums. Plenty of others have posted about builds complete with videos that can catch people and kill.

If we are talking about WvW, most of the video are against Upleveled chars. Just to show big numbers.

Anyway the concept of the game is not: “pick the right weapon for the right situation”. But is “play the way you want to play”, so every weapon set have to grant some kind of flexibility, and only then be oriented toward a specific role.

If you want to argue for homogenized weapons rather than specialized ones, you need to make the case for why this is good for the game. Saying “just because” isn’t going to cut it.

This is not a trinity based game, so a weapon cant be made for a specific role only.

You still believe there’s no trinity?

Why are you running around the discussion avoiding arguments?(and this is not the first time)
Is this game trinity based? Have you a guy that do nothing but heal? can you taunt a mob from the thief that steal your aggro? can you facetank a boss without moving? (ok we can do the last on some encounter)

This game have a false trinity, created by some opinable design choice. Like the defiant effect on bosses, or the specialized weapons.

If I seemed to avoid arguments it’s because I’m here to discuss, not to argue for the sake of arguing, like you are.

This game’s trinity is support, control and damage. This has been discussed at length and beaten to death.

Ganzo.5079:

Heinel.6548:

Ganzo.5079:

Heinel.6548:

People who don’t think the class has a problem isn’t going to post about it on the forums. Plenty of others have posted about builds complete with videos that can catch people and kill.

If we are talking about WvW, most of the video are against Upleveled chars. Just to show big numbers.

Anyway the concept of the game is not: “pick the right weapon for the right situation”. But is “play the way you want to play”, so every weapon set have to grant some kind of flexibility, and only then be oriented toward a specific role.

If you want to argue for homogenized weapons rather than specialized ones, you need to make the case for why this is good for the game. Saying “just because” isn’t going to cut it.

This is not a trinity based game, so a weapon cant be made for a specific role only.

You still believe there’s no trinity?

Ganzo.5079:

Heinel.6548:

People who don’t think the class has a problem isn’t going to post about it on the forums. Plenty of others have posted about builds complete with videos that can catch people and kill.

If we are talking about WvW, most of the video are against Upleveled chars. Just to show big numbers.

Anyway the concept of the game is not: “pick the right weapon for the right situation”. But is “play the way you want to play”, so every weapon set have to grant some kind of flexibility, and only then be oriented toward a specific role.

If you want to argue for homogenized weapons rather than specialized ones, you need to make the case for why this is good for the game. Saying “just because” isn’t going to cut it.

Bakitten291:

Heinel.6548:

So there’s still a fundamental difference between the camp that thinks guardian is adequate in keeping people in melee range (for the most part, RTL is an anomaly and deserves a nerf, rather than changes to guardian) and the camp that thinks guardian is an ineffective killer.

Continue on then.

This… confuses me, to say the least. What camp thinks guardian is adequate for keeping people in range? The only person that seems to have thought that so far has been you, and even then you said it pretty much requires GS/Hammer to do, which is pretty much saying we are broken because to play a melee class, you have to rely on only 2 of the many weapons we can use.

People who don’t think the class has a problem isn’t going to post about it on the forums. Plenty of others have posted about builds complete with videos that can catch people and kill. It’s just that people who picked guardians aren’t likely to care about 1v1’ing or hunting people to begin with, so those threads don’t get much traffic. You can rest assured though, that guardians can in fact deliver swift justice to the wayward ele/thief/mes/what have you, and with higher success rate than warriors, to boot.

Saying all weapons should be capable duelist weapons is like saying ele focus is bad because it doesn’t contribute much to damage. But S/F eles are the tankiest ele builds around, and while staff ele are more supportive, it also cannot fare as well as the D/D in duels. Each weapon still have it’s own place. In high level fractals you start seeing more people branching more towards builds with defenses in mind, rather than all bursts and spikes.

Back to the guardian. Take mace for example. What are you going to do with a healing weapon trying to gank with it? The guardian mace actually hits very hard, in this regard, even as something ideally suited to a supporter’s toolbelt. Who were the people who said to layer mace+focus for spikes? It’s the tankiest set for the guardian, but if you do #3 and #5 together it’s an easy 6k+ dmg, more if you’re berserker spec’ed. Not exactly harmless. Be glad you actually have a choice.

Bakitten291:

I would take a DPS cut for the snares TBH. The real issue is our utter lack of mobility. We have at most 2 600 yard leaps and one 1200 teleport on a long CD. other than that we have nothing to keep up with people at all. For a class that is supposed to be melee heavy we sure as hell have an issue with keeping people in melee range. That is the real reason behind this thread. And once again, I am not saying add snares to everything. I would just love a way to actually be able to keep up with someone once and a while. Between everyone else having great escape skills to others having the move signet. Unless we want to gimp ourselves by running retreat and staff we have no chance of catching people, and even when we run those people /still/ get away from fights that they would die in from any other class.

So there’s still a fundamental difference between the camp that thinks guardian is adequate in keeping people in melee range (for the most part, RTL is an anomaly and deserves a nerf, rather than changes to guardian) and the camp that thinks guardian is an ineffective killer.

Continue on then.

Bakitten291:

But the issue with that is, how do you decide what weapons get the snares, when almost every build/weapon needs more mobility. Keep in mind that any of my suggestions could easily be switched to cripple if need be, I just personally feel that chilling makes more sense for a guardian.

The other Issue about on use chill/cripple is where do we put it? We have so many “added effect” traits its kinda crazy. you can actually trait to the point where something like Virtue of justice activation causes blind, vuln, and gives you and allies 3 stacks of might and you retaliation. Half of our weapon skills also give added effects through traits as well, (vuln/healing on symbols, Vuln when inflicting immobilize, Vuln on blind, Burn on block, might on block, etc) We already have so many that it is hard to justify finding a place to add a snare in there somewhere. The only Condition that we do that doesn’t have an added effect that can be traited at the moment is actually burn. (not counting the +10% damage trait)

Well, I actually find guardian hindering and mobility abilities are quite adequate already. We have enough to hold someone in a 1v1 down until one side gets downed and that’s really what’s important IMO. It does lock you to GS/Hammer combo, and the skill ceiling for the build is arguably higher than D/D eles and such, but if you look at the other weapons, mace has such crazy healing, sword has a short cooldown teleport (ignore all cripple, not that many classes can actually do this), and what else? Scepter and staff are the ones that I find to be bad, but arguably those are not supposed to be combat weapons. I think they could be revamped, but look at the thread that calls for staff revamp.

The thing that I think the symbol gives chill on pulse suggestion can accomplish, is to give guardians a different playstyle. Mass CC or group hinder, sort of similar to the function staff eles and necros can perform. (Also why I thought it should be GM major trait, since this is suppose to be about breadth of builds, not a linear power increase)

Reason being, at the end of the day, the guardian is not a versatile class in a game where every prof is supposed to be versatile. No one can deny that. There’s a couple things you can do with the guardian, either make it into a 1v1 duelist, that can only 1v1 and nothing else. At most you can 1v2 bad players, but you aren’t contributing in any other ways. Then you can be a bunker with some group support, that will in most cases die when the battle is drawn on long enough or you are singled out. You have little hope of actually killing anything.

The thing about traits that add additional effects, is not about you trying to stack anything and everything into VoJ, but it’s a choice. You won’t get too much out of just investing everything into VoJ since it’s still something that you use every 20-30 seconds, but maybe it can compliment your playstyle. The same goes with the adept honor traits regarding aegis. With an HP set up, aegis heals is better, with a boon set up, aegis gives retaliation is better.

Are traits that alter abilities the ultimate solution to all guardian woes? Proabably not, hence why the discussion, but in thinking about what traits should do, I think people had skipped a higher level question—What do you want snares for? Do you want to play your guardian differently than the bunker builds out there? If the answer is just that you wanted a different build to play with, then the first thing you should focus on is what type of role do you want your character to fulfill, then suggest things that support that direction, it may be to add snares somewhere, or it may be something totally different. This “add snares to everything” BS has gone on long enough. It’s not going to happen, or if it’s going to happen, then it will come with a DPS cut. Engis learnt this the hard way. It’s not productive. It’s about time we find real solutions.

Bakitten291:

So over the last couple days I have been trying to think of new Ideas for our class as far as this issue goes and I have come to one conclusion and a few other ideas.

First off I have figured that adding a snare component to symbols is sadly just not workable because of the hammer. All other weapons would work great but it would sadly make the hammer much too strong as a CC weapon. Adding in a CD to the effect would just damage the usefulness of switching weapons to put down another symbol, which would already have a 9 second penalty of nothing being able to switching back. So here are my new suggestions:

Hot Ice: pretty much the same as said before, Anytime burning condition is applied there is a chance to also apply chill for 1s. but make it a grandmaster Zeal trait with 50%+ chance. Zeal is a pure damage line, so I think that allowing this as a grandmaster will really help since the DPS guardians are the ones needing the most help. Honestly It also could work as a 100% chance with a 2s CD to stop perm chilling.

Glacial Heart revamp: Make it work on all weapons. Lower the Duration to 2s, lower the CD to 15s. This allows easy access to almost all builds, since most are Valor heavy, and also removes the hammer restriction making it useful for any weapon. At the moment the CD I believe is far to strict to make real use of this since it is only single target, so lowering the CD and the Duration to balance it out would make some sense.

Binding Shield: Whenever Aegis on you is broken, inflicts Immobilize (1s) on the person who broke it. 5s CD I would replace the 25% retaliation up time trait in virtues for this. Or maybe even making it the 15 point talent for virtues, since we already have a massive amount of retaliation up time without it. (leap/blast finishers in the tons of light fields we have) This could also work as a snare with a bit longer duration on a longer CD as well. Though this will not help with being aggressive towards other players, It will help with keeping things like P/D thieves closer to us.

Keep In mind I am not saying all of these should be put into our traits, these are just suggestions of possible Ideas. Also these could be switched around in different lines a bit. Binding shield could go in Valor since it is a defensive style trait (though it is more a better replacement for retaliation), while Glacial Heart could move to Zeal (where I think it would honestly make more sense, maybe even radiance because of it being crit based)

I actually really hate things that has a chance to proc on all activities. It takes control (and skill) out of the equation. IMO chill is more of a precise condition, that requires timing for best effect, unlike your random bleed and cripple that is just nice but if it isn’t in when you want it who cares kinda deal.

If possible I’d like an actual functional change on weapon specific traits (those +5% ones, they’re the traits that need the most help IMO), in the manner of mesmer offhand traits.

buki.3108:

If you get stuck, /dance.

Is this a joke or does it actually unstuck you?

Sigh. Those trolling YB’ers had to flip our life line. Real shortsightedness displayed right there.

Kaineng, please spawn camp YB on CDBL. We’ll see you tomorrow.

General.7803:

Subtle.4596:

So wonder what that WM group is going to do when they fix culling.

like this ( http://youtu.be/d60B_QBb-dU )

And we don’t use culling, just invisible.
T1? Don’t worry about that.
WM already one of best fight WvW guild in T1 for last 4 months,
and I already was fight in T1 with less 10 wm-member.
We just want to grow our Kaineng frined by T4,T3,T2.
OK. Let’s good fight.

What are you going to do when you hit T1 again?

If you transfer off again, Kaineng will fall back to where they were before.

Skyblue.9358:

Just wait Jan 28 and see how ANet fix the culling problem =)

It’s not fixed on Jan 28. Culling is still in full effect, it’s just hardware-side asset loading lag is reduced.

Though whether the aforementioned mass stealth exploit still works remains to be seen. I assume currently it resets the culling priority so that all your allies loads and all the enemies gets culled. If they have a separate counter for either side there may be a chance that the problem is reduced.

DarkElvenChic.2618:

Somehow I knew WM had to be involved. BTW our queues are too long atm for them to keep it up if they intend to WvW more than 1/8-1/4 of their time.

Their guild is large enough that they don’t need the entire team for the standing army. So they can just rotate their rosters whenever the buff is up.

When your server has hit the player cap, the only way to continue to increase the fighting power is buff the individuals on the map. It makes sense.

Ordibble.3092:

ryan.3915:

Why do we only have half the posts of mag, db and fa?

Because Maguuma aren’t in this matchup. Those guys really like to talk, especially about themselves

No one can match FJ in verbal diarrhea. Mag has nothing on those. X)

Lorelei.3918:

“What is sure, is my dear friends from CD, whatever is the score I invite all the wvw guilds from both YB and CD to join Kaineng NEO alliance before the free transfer closure. Lets gather our strenght on Kaineng to go top tier T1.”

Said Xerxes to the Spartans. What do we CD say to that??

Push him into the pits.

===

There’s also still a group of rather vocal ex-CD’ers spying and trolling our team and map chat. This will be a looonnng week.

Silver.8023:

I don’t get it, what is the benefit of using only an immobilise and/or knockdown when you could use both in conjunction with a free cripple for even more face to face number exchange?

It is because of power creep.

Guardians are not considered underpowered at the moment. A straight up adding in efficacy means pushing them to overpowered level. The other professions will then have to be buffed as well to accommodate this change. This introduce the never ending cycle of power increases.

That is why buffs have always been few and far between.

And I’ll also say this preemptively:

If you think the guardian is underpowered because of a lack of snare, please make a new thread pushing your argument forward. This thread is made under the view that guardian is balanced as is and the only change sought is more option on par with existing viable builds, not a buff.

Ganzo.5079:

Heinel.6548:

Ganzo.5079:

lol you have nothing else to say, can you only reply with sarcasm?

It is not sarcasm. The advice being given there is sound, and if they can catch a mesmer with that, they will most likely also catch thieves, and definitely will catch an ele. I don’t think it’s worth repeating the same information here.

Stack swiftness is not so effective because all classes have simply more speed then us with a good ranged options.

Chains are good but you have to use them when the enemy is near(<2 sec of travel) or if you have a teleport\jump out of CD. but they dont last long so you will land maybe one or 2 hit before the enemy start to run away again.

Teleport in general, are only half good, yes you reach the enemy but if he is running, he simply continue to run, without some second of slow.

the only real good combo for now is JI+ROW, this is the only combo i have ALWAYS on my skill set for WvW because its the only that really give to us some melee extra time.

So, if you want a discussion, then discuss. But put some real point, instead of wrong\partial\incorrect things or just sarcastic quotes.

If you think their solutions are ineffective why don’t you ask them to clarify?

I don’t think you’re here to discuss at all. You’re trolling the thread.

Ganzo.5079:

lol you have nothing else to say, can you only reply with sarcasm?

It is not sarcasm. The advice being given there is sound, and if they can catch a mesmer with that, they will most likely also catch thieves, and definitely will catch an ele. I don’t think it’s worth repeating the same information here.

Ganzo.5079:

I got Kited!

I guess the “how to deal with mesmer” thread come at a very good time. Start reading it.

Bakitten291:

To my point: Symbols are a basis of our class, we have 6 traits that effect them, 3 major in honor, 3 minor in zeal. Signets have 3 Major traits in only the radiance line. With so many options to customize symbols I think it would make more sense to change one of the 6 out instead of one of the only 3 that alter signets. Also, what exactly is supposed to be changed on signets? giving us the generic speed increasing signet? No thanks, I would much rather have a trait applied to symbols that increases our build diversity than every guardian and their mother running the same one signet.

If you think the symbol hindering mechanic should require traits, then you are in agreement with me. I’m the original person who proposed the concept (at least in the context of this thread).

Silver.8023:

simply because they all have it available on all but three weapons,

It’s on their weapons as a dead weight skill that has never seen use. If I’m ever caught by a warrior it wouldn’t be because of a cripple, it’d be because i’m out of cooldowns to counter immobilize and knockdowns.

Ganzo.5079:

We arent blah blah blah.

Guardians has just as many offensive teleports as a thief. Maybe on somewhat longer cooldowns, but we also don’t die to a sneeze like they do, which means some of their mobility has to be spent on defense, rather than all offense. The only thing eles have that puts them at an advantage over guardians is RTL, nothing else.

Bakitten291:

See the issue in comparing skills like that is you are not comparing them fully.

You argue that the signets are underpowered. So then propose changes to them. Not the weapons.

Silver.8023:

Nobody was really saying we needed 100% chill uptime. If you’re referring to what I recently said, I was more referring to cripple anyway and even then I don’t think we should have 100% cripple uptime either (I think chill on a Guardian is a little out of place to be honest). Cripple with similar cooldowns and duration as the Warrior would be nice because, as ArenaNet has stated, Guardians are supposed to be more effective in melee range and yet we have no reliable way of keeping people there without using up 1-2 utility slots (other professions can choose not to do this) or weapons that we may not necessarily want to use and even then due to the lack of cripple, as soon as they run out, if you don’t do enough damage to kill them in the short amount of time you had them, foes can simply run away or roll through those long cooldown wards that are now wasted…

I would say that the tradeoff for being a survival based build is already present, you don’t do much burst damage, you generally do sustained damage. We can’t really perform sustained damage unless we keep them with us. Once again, I’m not asking for perma-cripple where once we’ve got them, we win. I’m asking for some good duration, good cooldown cripples that when used in a timely manner could very well win you the day if you play well. You know, like most other cripples.

I am claiming something much more generalizable than 100% chill time. If that example is confusing just skip that part and read the rest of the post at face value.

The trade off for not having burst damage is having higher sustained damage. Guardian auto attacks are already one of the best, if not the best if you are only looking at a DPS meter. That can’t be used as an excuse to get cripple.

Asking for cripple is also a bad thing. How many warriors do you see using cripple? Let’s not even talk about the glass cannons. The balanced ones also use bolas. They use bulls charge. The guardian knockdown and immobilize signets are arguably better versions of those skills with less visually confirmable animations and no chance of missing the target. Even D/D eles, yes they use chill, but when they’re on the offensive, you’re more likely to be caught in a immobilize with that earth grasp skill or knockdown by their stomp, than you get chilled by their pbaoe ice blast. If they have a cripple skill in their bars a lot of the times they aren’t even being utilized. How many people know churning earth actually cripples the targets while channeling? I could even add thieves into this. Any thief with a dagger in offhand has a conveniently spammable, ranged, multi target cripple. But what do you see them actually doing? CnD after CnD. When was the last time you got hit by dancing dagger? A thief has far better things to do than wasting initiative on crippling targets needlessly. In other words, crippling, just doesn’t make that much of a difference in general.

I still don’t think people who say guardian needs snares with no drawbacks at all are giving the guardian class enough credits.

The only other build that can keep persistent chill is the D/D ele, and even for them it’s not 100% up time. Have you ever seen how fast a D/D ele drops when they cannot maintain kiting range? An Honor/Valor variant guardian just plain does not drop that fast. It’s actually very difficult to counter bunker guardians when matters come to a toe to toe fight.

Most people have gotten so used to the survival builds that they think it is the baseline to build guardians upon. Guardians do have ways to lock down their targets, very strong ones, at that, but making a signet build means you miss out on the builds that make you nigh unkillable. You can choose to kill, or be unkillable, but not both. This is part of the guardian’s design.

sinthetix.8765:

shanmugong.6750:

Deathdom.8250:

Altie.4571:

great, 11 of us now!

I make 12 and we could add these people in as well. http://nerdpickles.com/?page_id=13

OMG! What a great website! /bow

Thanks, btw. Took me 5 minutes. and the guy who said it should rep CD…. I can only dream. xD

Well, base on the guild list on there, it more or less already is :P (at least for WvW side of things)

Maniac.5163:

Toggles.1783:

If the guilds on CD had stayed, CD would have mostly stayed put. They try to tell you otherwise but ultimately it’s a self fulfilling prophecy

Yes. The inital guild[s] that left probably didn’t want to “stay put”, or drop down a tier. Then it’s just a snowball effect. That’s just the way the cookie crumbles I guess – if TA stuck around (and together) HoD would still be #1 NA by a laaarge margin.

I think the system actually works. There are still a lot of people who require “progression” in the game, including in WvW. Trying to fight over rank or tier progression is the kind of struggle that is cyclical when powered by transfers, and as such it’s never ending. Had the game released with paid transfers, people will hit the dead end at the top and quit the game entirely. Transfers allow people to continue to chase after their goal of progression indefinitely—the perfect carrot on a stick.

It’s probably not an intentional design, but it was really interesting how things turned out.

Caliburn.1845:

My guild and I(Dragonbrand), figured coming into this match-up that CD would be crushing us, having won the prior week. To this end we(and a lot of other Dragonbrand fighters) went into CD bl at reset, seized that Hills keep, and kept it for three days. Had we realized the extent of the power-shift due to IoJ>FA transfers we might have rethought our strategy and tried to take and hold a foothold in FA bl. We never expected it to work so well, and if it served as some sort of catalyst to start a collapse of the CD wvw scene I am sorry.

To my fellow Dragonbrand fighters we now have a choice. Fight hard, focus CD exclusively and we might stay in Tier 3 next week. Or we can relax, take second place with the margin we have, and fall to Tier 4.

If we stay in Tier 3 we will be fighting FA and Maguuma. In that match-up I think we will take third, but it will be a good hard fight from all sides. If we fall to Tier 4 we will fight Kaineng and YB. And Kaineng will smash us, but we’ll still take second place easily over YB. I know, many of you will disagree with that assessment. But you’re wrong. Kaineng can field queues in all four maps, they can keep queues in 1-2 maps 24/7. DB can’t come close to those numbers.

This is particularly important because it will be the last three days before paid server transfers go active. I think it will be better for Dragonbrand morale and keep people’s spirits higher to stay in Tier 3 and fight a rough, but solid match-up against FA and MAG, rather than be steamrolled by Kaineng.

So get in WvW, and pressure CD until the end of this match-up.

I wouldn’t say it’s a collapse. The bandwagoning is expected. It’s just that CD’s offer isn’t as enticing as some of the other servers. I actually think facing Kaineng is still better, as it’s easy to deflect blame towards Kaineng zerging than anything else. And when Kaineng rises to T3 the week after, someone will have to come down. If DB is confident that they’re ahead of maguuma, definitely try to stick to T3.

Camo.7498:

Heinel.6548:

Camo.7498:

ryan.3915:

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

How come CD is losing guilds?

CD has had 1 guild transfer (KH), and 1 considering moving that I know of. It’s nothing like the mass exoduses (exodi?) that have happened before.

These things happen, and with the deadline looming like a wedding date, it may give some people cold feet about committing to CD for life.

EDMW is happy to stay put, and other guilds have echoed the same sentiments.

False, don’t lie and get people stuck in CD right before transfers become paid. CD can’t hold +200 for more then 3 hours durning the day. Meaning 1) either guilds are infact actually leaving. Or 2) you’ve given up. And if #2 is correct please log back on and stop giving your points to FA, please. /begs

We will accept your application under the conditions that all DB forces leave our BL right this moment and stay in FABL for the rest of the week.

Gods honest truth, if you guys could hold it, all from FA. I’d be down. But every time I look, if we don’t own hills or bay, FA owns both maybe even your garrison.

It’s not like there’s a choice on the matter. You can accuse us of feeding whatever you want, the fact is, whichever side FA focuses on will get pushed out of the map. You either double team, or try to scramble points when you’re not the one being focused and try not to fall too far behind.

shanmugong.6750:

Deathdom.8250:

Altie.4571:

great, 11 of us now!

I make 12 and we could add these people in as well. http://nerdpickles.com/?page_id=13

OMG! What a great website! /bow

I’d vote that to represent CD from now on X)

thatguynz.7819:

Absolute rot.

I’d totally risk another infraction just to lol at this.

Camo.7498:

ryan.3915:

xxxzavulonxxx.8413:

How come CD is losing guilds?

CD has had 1 guild transfer (KH), and 1 considering moving that I know of. It’s nothing like the mass exoduses (exodi?) that have happened before.

These things happen, and with the deadline looming like a wedding date, it may give some people cold feet about committing to CD for life.

EDMW is happy to stay put, and other guilds have echoed the same sentiments.

False, don’t lie and get people stuck in CD right before transfers become paid. CD can’t hold +200 for more then 3 hours durning the day. Meaning 1) either guilds are infact actually leaving. Or 2) you’ve given up. And if #2 is correct please log back on and stop giving your points to FA, please. /begs

We will accept your application under the conditions that all DB forces leave our BL right this moment and stay in FABL for the rest of the week.

thatguynz.7819:

Heinel.6548:

Espybuns.1890:

Is there something I’m missing about the whole notion of “server loyalty”? Why does the term hold any value? A server is simply a server; shouldn’t that loyalty be directed to the friends you have on that server instead? If your fun is being compromised by staying on a particular server—or you feel that more enjoyment could be had elsewhere—then for what reason do you have to remain apart from your friends?

Speak to them; convince them that it’s just a bullkitten concept. We paid money for the game; you shouldn’t feel like a certain fallacy should prevent you from enjoying it as much as you should. In the end, it’s quite possible that this meaningless pride is just going to be detrimental in the long run.

You are confused about the semantics. By server loyalty, people are actually referring to people who stick with the server. A server’s identity is comprised solely of the people that it is made up of.

If you were a IoJ, you deserted the people who chose to stay in that server. They have the right to call you traitor.

Actually, they don’t really. If they had opted to avail themselves of any one of the many many repeated attempts to get them to join wvw to bolster the numbers from within, then the final exodus would never have occurred. As has been stated repeatedly, people are commenting on their opinion of what has transpired with IOJ, without actually having an awareness of the facts. Clearly the facts don’t make for as much of a compelling story and can’t stir the drama up like the unsubstantiated assertions that other people have been making.

You think you’re refuting the assumptions from outsiders, but in the content of you post, you just claimed that you were betrayed (by presumably the PvE’rs in LA), so you betray (IoJ’s existing WvW population) in return. This is just confirming what the outsiders assumed. And just where do you think these assumptions come from, anyway? It’s when as a last ditch effort before they nail the coffin, the last survivors of the IoJ WvW team made one post in this tier’s thread, making their voice heard just one last time. Before being silenced forever. Karma, it will get you soon.

Espybuns.1890:

Heinel.6548:

Espybuns.1890:

Is there something I’m missing about the whole notion of “server loyalty”? Why does the term hold any value? A server is simply a server; shouldn’t that loyalty be directed to the friends you have on that server instead? If your fun is being compromised by staying on a particular server—or you feel that more enjoyment could be had elsewhere—then for what reason do you have to remain apart from your friends?

Speak to them; convince them that it’s just a bullkitten concept. We paid money for the game; you shouldn’t feel like a certain fallacy should prevent you from enjoying it as much as you should. In the end, it’s quite possible that this meaningless pride is just going to be detrimental in the long run.

You are confused about the semantics. By server loyalty, people are actually referring to people who stick with the server. A server’s identity is comprised solely of the people that it is made up of.

If you were a IoJ, you deserted the people who chose to stay in that server. They have the right to call you traitor.

What nonsense. Those that remained could have transferred off too; it’s not as if they can’t do anything about it. Choosing to remain on a server and subsequently calling out those who left when they were just trying to find better ways to enjoy the game sounds like a load of crock. Unless they paid for their copy of the game, they don’t owe them anything.

“Server pride” sounds cool, and so people like it, even if it is just a load of bullkitten.

I see you definitely fit in to FA a lot more than anywhere else. It was a sound choice.

Espybuns.1890:

Is there something I’m missing about the whole notion of “server loyalty”? Why does the term hold any value? A server is simply a server; shouldn’t that loyalty be directed to the friends you have on that server instead? If your fun is being compromised by staying on a particular server—or you feel that more enjoyment could be had elsewhere—then for what reason do you have to remain apart from your friends?

Speak to them; convince them that it’s just a bullkitten concept. We paid money for the game; you shouldn’t feel like a certain fallacy should prevent you from enjoying it as much as you should. In the end, it’s quite possible that this meaningless pride is just going to be detrimental in the long run.

You are confused about the semantics. By server loyalty, people are actually referring to people who stick with the server. A server’s identity is comprised solely of the people that it is made up of.

If you were a IoJ, you deserted the people who chose to stay in that server. They have the right to call you traitor.

Camo.7498:

It’s really pick your poison. Do we want to “step up” and face Mag and FA or fall and face just 1 super server… I think you have my answer lol

Way to not be a man. :*(

(And I actually totally forgot about Kaineng, lol. Next week pve week.)

ryan.3915:

Toggles.1783:

All these claims about being “WvW” or “pro” or “good” or what have you then the first sign of possible trouble and they leave one after another to either stack up an already strong server that’s winning or they all bandwagon onto a server that will be winning through sheer transfer numbers all the while plugging their ears going ‘nah nah nah nah I can’t hear you over the sound of my PvP excellence’.

Can you believe my guild leader even tried to spin some crap about “knowing true loyalty”? As if I’m having a lack of loyalty because I want to be loyal to the server. hOkay.

Whatevs man, my bottom hurts now and I’m mad.

I haven’t heard of a mass exodus of guilds in CD. 1 has moved, another is looking to move. And when people say 200-300, it’s just the names on the list, not the actual people representing that guild. The actual number might be closer to 20-30 people.

I still bump into the other guilds when I PvE, kill dragons and crawling through dungeons. We have faced overwhelming numbers before and we were quite happy to fight those and guilds stayed put.

FAJita’s size since the merger is definitely overwhelming and not meant for this current tier. A better use of time and resources would be to speed them up to tier 2, like what they seemed to be doing to us in our last match up, until they interestingly gained a large proportion of IoJ’s WvWers.

Once the shift is done, people will return, knowing they can have more meaningful fights.

I actually was banking on CD dropping a tier before the week ends. The earlier it happens, the earlier we can start rebuilding. Right now there’s really not much to do except to wait. It’s getting boring :?

DB! Be a man. Do the right thing. Step up your game and claim your spot in T3 now!

Zeoli.3402:

I think adding a 1200 single target part to the auto attack so that staff guardians hit everything in front of them for 600 but can only hit one target at 1200 (their target)

if this gets put in, can i request the mesmer gs #1 graphics but in blue please

The beam graphic is actually very buggy on all weapons that uses it.

• If you hit a structure the beam has no target to link the beginning and end points, so it just doesn’t appear at all.
• The beam doesn’t always shoot forward, sometimes your character points one way and the beam goes another.
• Sometimes you use a different ability but the beam still appear.
• There’s an infinite range bug where even if the attack wouldn’t connect, the animation still shoots at the target.
• There’s the stuck animation (ele scepter air 1)
• All that with an obnoxious noise (glad they toned the mesmer gs beam ringing down from the BWE version, but its still annoying, the ele scepter cracking noise is still downright unacceptable)

Beam weapons is one of the most complained about weapons regarding their animations.

FWB.1704:

Heinel.6548:

If they nerf damage across the board then that’d automatically be a buff to guardians. The slower the damage comes, the stronger healing power is.

This would only be the case if they nerfed mob damage as well, which I don’t think will happen at all. Anet’s just making PvE suck even more and more with every patch in favor of WvW and SPvP

This is not the correct view point either.

In PvE you cannot be nerfed in relation to mobs, because there’s no alternative. You’ll still have to kill the same mob as that is the game itself. The game may become more challenging as a result, but that should be seen as a difficulty increase, not a power decrease.

Nerf with respect to PvE has to do with how your profession fares against other professions that will be fighting for the same party slots as you. To this end, the AoE nerf is almost guaranteed to effect guardians less than most other classes. A thief or a ranger may be less affected by this change, but they had always been an inferior choice to guardians across the board in PvE, so you have little to fear.