Guild Wars 2

Ursan.7846:

Hell Avenger.7021:

I have heard about price creeps in certain circumstances before news came out, such as trading in T1 mats for supply box.

That happened after the news came out.

Whether inside trading happens or not, we will never know. However, with the size of the TP it’s pretty difficult to imagine insider trading having any significant impact on the TP itself.

It probably wouldn’t have that much effect, but I would consider that as unfair profit.

Mark Katzbach.9084:

The Spanish forums are not restricted by continent. Any Spanish speaker is free to post on those forums, just as any English speaker is free to post on these forums.

exactement!

TooBz.3065:

Hell Avenger.7021:

TooBz.3065:

So far it’s really only the Gekkos who come out to play.

Gordon Gekko is about insider trading, this is not about insider trading. Now insider trading is an issue when website get news before everyone else does. Which happens in this game, and that is truly unfair

Gekko is about insider trading, but is most famous (IMO) for the “greed is good” speach. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vscG3k91s58

Greed is good. There are a lot of sense in that message, just said by the wrong “person”

mtpelion.4562:

Hell Avenger.7021:

TooBz.3065:

So far it’s really only the Gekkos who come out to play.

Gordon Gekko is about insider trading, this is not about insider trading. Now insider trading is an issue when website get news before everyone else does. Which happens in this game, and that is truly unfair

It’s only insider trading if the website acts on said knowledge.

I know you know that, but I just wanted to clarify.

I have heard about price creeps in certain circumstances before news came out, such as trading in T1 mats for supply box.

TooBz.3065:

So far it’s really only the Gekkos who come out to play.

Gordon Gekko is about insider trading, this is not about insider trading. Now insider trading is an issue when website get news before everyone else does. Which happens in this game, and that is truly unfair

kishter.9578:

So america (Spanish) player don’t deserved a Sub forum because what again? prejudice?

are you having prejudice against french Canadian and Chinese? When did America = U.S.A only

i am at the end of the festival draw……. common be more creative…

Kam.8109:

Is there any way to tell how many people are actually using real money to buy precursors? This is a very common argument and by my calculations if someone wanted to buy something like The Colossus they would have to spend around $300 USD.

Maybe it’s just because I would never drop that kind of money on a video game, but I find it hard to believe many people get precursors this way, at least not a magnitude where it poses any sort of problem.

lol… try close to $1000. well unless Colossus is cheap. I never check that one’s price. The dawn and dusk are well… expensive.

meanwhile, add french and chinese too. OR nope

wait till next week for ascended armor

NOW, warrior got ONE viable build. you complain. bravo

Time gate everything LOL

ilr.9675:

John Smith:

Ensign.2189:

….already kitten ed off from eating the 5% fee of having to re-list it on top of your money being locked up for those days.

Except for the part about my feelings (I just got back from crying in a corner), everything Ensign says is correct.

Cool…sooo…. Having “your money tied up” is considered a PUNISHMENT or failure metric now? …. Smith basically backs the Day-Traders 100% then? …and sees no reasons to promote Long Term investment. And nothing is ever going to be done to make the day flippers face the realities of “Warehousing” or give up anything for their nearly infinite low bids? That just means we’re stuck in the same zombie flash market our Real World is stuck in then … minus those generous “Easing” handouts.

Okay fine, then if we’re going to base everything off real markets, then how do we start Short Selling the leveraged value of crap we think is overvalued? (starting with precursors & lodestones). Let us borrow those and then tank them. Better yet… allow day flippers to lose storage slots after a particularly brutal day of trading or just sentence them to perma death like it was hardcore mode

I will tell you if you allow the real market stuff. I will make some serious dough. Too bad we can only go long this market.

tolunart.2095:

Amun Ra.6435:

This conversation has been going longer before any news of the update was announced. I assume you and anyone else suggesting the same are fairly new to the forums.

You assume wrong, I’ve been active on the forums for a very long time. I’m referring to this thread, it’s one of three or four that have been posted in the last two days.

Exactly, all of sudden several threads poped up out of the blue.WAIT, not out of the blue. COF farmers are crying, because all of sudden they cannot afford to buy stuffs anymore while others can.

This is like YOU NERF THIEF, everyone SHOULD BE NERFED TOOOO

TooBz.3065:

I don’t think anyone is saying that flippers are marking items up. That’s a strawman.

There are two discussions going more of less simultaneously. First is about flipping itself. Is it good or bad for the economy. The second is about the concentration of wealth and the effect that this has on the game.

The reason they are related is that flipping is the way that the wealth gets concentrated.

Speaking only for myself. I don’t do it because it’s not fun. There are lots of activities in this game that I refuse to do because I don’t enjoy them. Flipping is one of them. I play this game to enjoy myself – period. If I don’t enjoy it I don’t do it. Honestly, you don’t need money in this game at all if you don’t buy into the grind, grind, grind, bullkitten that ANet keeps pushing.

Flipper also spend money too. It is just they can afford more. When they spend gold on items, that is money to other players.

I will be honest. This whole thread is basically from the COF nerf. There was never such a big debate, until COF nerf is announced and being acted upon next week. Jealousy make people cry, they want to drag everyone to their level.

Required read if you are going to suggest flipping is at the expense of other.

Hell Avenger.7021:

OK buddy look, I WILL EXPLAIN with a simple example to make you understand why trading cause no detriment to anyone. It is price discovery in practice.

Assume a normal market of Good A:

Assuming TP fee is 10% for simplicity.
Assume there are constant demand for this good.

Current Ask (listing) Price is $10/unit.
Current Bid Price is $ 5/Unit.

You the trader see this opportunity, and you buy at $5.01. You resale the item at $9.99. You effectively lowered the price for the good for everyone. NOW, if enough traders come in and do the same tactic. They will buy at $5.02, and resale the item at $9.98. KEEP ON GOING.

Eventually, they will reach an equilibrium price. The TRUE Value (taking into account of the fees) of the item. WAIT A MINUTE, did the price just increase for Bid price? Yes, it did, and it should. WHY you ask? The bid price was too low, people gave a lowball bid price (happen very often when you buy a house), that is a price that the guy can make an arbitrage profit. However, at the equilibrium price there is no arbitrage profit.

The thing you are complaining about (drumroll): NOT ENOUGH TRADERS, thus there are profit!

I agree, so far it is too much happy happy… Councillor assassination? LOL, I never knew we had a pirate Councillors to begin with.

What? There is already a penalty for you listing something at a bad price. 5% RELISTING FEE. It is gold sink already? WHY? It trap my money in that goods that I could not sell.

Bad idea.

Furthermore, you trapping capital in the market WILL NOT reduce inflation. MORE TRANSACTION = MORE 10% commission charge by ANET.

OK buddy look, I WILL EXPLAIN with a simple example to make you understand why trading cause no detriment to anyone. It is price discovery in practice.

Assume a normal market of Good A:

Assuming TP fee is 10% for simplicity.
Assume there are constant demand for this good.

Current Ask (listing) Price is $10/unit.
Current Bid Price is $ 5/Unit.

You the trader see this opportunity, and you buy at $5.01. You resale the item at $9.99. You effectively lowered the price for the good for everyone. NOW, if enough traders come in and do the same tactic. They will buy at $5.02, and resale the item at $9.98. KEEP ON GOING.

Eventually, they will reach an equilibrium price. The TRUE Value (taking into account of the fees) of the item. WAIT A MINUTE, did the price just increase for Bid price? Yes, it did, and it should. WHY you ask? The bid price was too low, people gave a lowball bid price (happen very often when you buy a house), that is a price that the guy can make an arbitrage profit. However, at the equilibrium price there is no arbitrage profit.

The thing you are complaining about (drumroll): NOT ENOUGH TRADERS, thus there are profit!

Fungalfoot.7213:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Every action you perform in the real world and in Guild Wars is selfish. Every action YOU perform is by your own volition, meaning YOU WANT to perform that action. If you WANT it, it’s selfish. Think about what you’re saying.

The mental gymnastics you folks will employ to justify flipping will never cease to amaze me. Truly.

Come on, we all know that the profit comes at the expense of somebody else. I don’t really have a problem with flipping itself as it’s one of the last ways of actually making money in this game but I do have a problem with flippers trying to pretend they’re doing something useful here. When you flip you do it for one reason and one reason alone and that is to make a load of gold for yourself. And hey, I don’t have a problem with that as I’ve often resorted to the very same methods when I’ve been in a tight spot.

My problem is that this is a fundamentally broken and unfun system. The most efficient way to progress shouldn’t be sitting in Lion’s Arch and playing the trading post. That is the crux of the issue and that is what needs to be rectified. It’s a far greater issue than farming.

It doesnt come at the expense of anyone. “We all know.” LOL. You are assuming trader charge exuberantly high prices. (Which we will be undercut to death)

Fenrir.3609:

Hell Avenger.7021:

EgonVenkman.1907:

Fenrir.3609:

So you expect a zero risk venture which has little to zero player competition and which every player can do in a short frame of time, to have the same returns ceiling as a high risk venture which takes a large capital base to achieve and puts you in direct competition with other players?

As I mentioned before, general loot rewards could certainly do with being updated (and ANET seems to be in the process of that given the upcoming patch). But trying to “nerf” flipping seems utterly unwarranted.

I disagree.

http://www.gw2spidy.com/ and half a brain turns your “high risk venture” into a “Very Low Risk Venture”. I would go as far to say that you have a better chance of losing more money in a bad dungeon group that wipes a lot.

The reason people were farming was to get gold/materials. And materials are just gold anyway. Why bother trying to find somewhere else to exploit/farm and risk getting it nerfed or in trouble, when you can sit in Lion’s arch and abuse the TP.

Not all will transition to the TP, but with enough nerfs to the farming spots, the TP is going to become the center of attention and the go-to spot for making gold.

If plenty of people do it, it turns into high risk business, because you are competing with everyone.

Indeed.

Furthermore I fail to see how someone could kitten up a dungeon run or open world farming enough for it to cost anywhere near the listing costs/risk associated with top level flipping.

You take on more risk, you need a larger capital base and you are in direct competition with other players. The more players involved in the activity, the harder it becomes. It is no surprise the ceiling for returns could and should be higher for such activities.

Exactly, higher risk/higher return. I could easily lose over 2 gold in a minute if I dont things incorrectly. They lose a repair cost of few silver.

tolunart.2095:

TooBz.3065:

I’m not advocating the restriction, I’m just answering the question. I have to think that if people were limited to trading 500 items per day, anyone playing the game normally would have more than enough room to sell everything they acquire.

And their most active players, including a lot of “farmers” would be stuck with too many items to trade, and have to stuff their bank, guild bank, alts with everything they can’t sell, or vendor it and lose money and therefore the motivation to play.

This is bad.

Remember, the TP was set up this way, it didn’t just happen. They could have made a separate TP for each server, making each game world a closed system unless you paid a huge fee to change servers. Because every server is a river that feeds into the same ocean, certain things are possible and other things are not possible to do within the game.

Whether or not an individual likes the way the TP works, it cannot be denied that Anet – and the man they hired to run it – wants it to work this way.

I love the fact that all servers are in one pot. That will decrease the chance of monopoly by a significant factor. I see this TP as experiment too, you can observe a lot of human behavior in this market which is true in the real world. Behavioral finance is a very interesting topics mind you.

TooBz.3065:

Hell Avenger.7021:

this is becoming basically an argument of “financial and economikittenerates” vs “non literates (ethics, fair and all that excuses)”

So many of the against “flipping arguments” are wrong. I will be honest, investment is my real world specialty.

Yes, I am not an investment expert. But I don’t think I’ve made a single ethics based argument, although I have discussed how different actions affect different parts of the community. I also do not appreciate being call non-literate.

What I am trying to have is an actual discussion about the trading post, it’s good points, and it’s bad points. Do you actual think anything we say here will be implemented or even considered? Please. This discussion is only for our own amusement.

This is a prime opportunity for you to educate the “non-literates.” I will be honest, I don’t think you know what you are talking about.

Of course many wouldn’t understand what I am saying, but it does not make it wrong. If we just blindly throwing wrench into things, you will not fix anything but break many other.

EgonVenkman.1907:

Fenrir.3609:

So you expect a zero risk venture which has little to zero player competition and which every player can do in a short frame of time, to have the same returns ceiling as a high risk venture which takes a large capital base to achieve and puts you in direct competition with other players?

As I mentioned before, general loot rewards could certainly do with being updated (and ANET seems to be in the process of that given the upcoming patch). But trying to “nerf” flipping seems utterly unwarranted.

I disagree.

http://www.gw2spidy.com/ and half a brain turns your “high risk venture” into a “Very Low Risk Venture”. I would go as far to say that you have a better chance of losing more money in a bad dungeon group that wipes a lot.

The reason people were farming was to get gold/materials. And materials are just gold anyway. Why bother trying to find somewhere else to exploit/farm and risk getting it nerfed or in trouble, when you can sit in Lion’s arch and abuse the TP.

Not all will transition to the TP, but with enough nerfs to the farming spots, the TP is going to become the center of attention and the go-to spot for making gold.

If plenty of people do it, it turns into high risk business, because you are competing with everyone.

Fungalfoot.7213:

Balkanwarrior.5132:

haha parasitic entities. Got a sour taste in your mouth eh? I wont even bother arguing your points. You need to sit in a corner and have a time out before you can start making assumptions and insult people.

I hate to break it to you but you’re really not adding anything of value by buying low and selling high and it’s not some kind of rocket science. We’ve all flipped at some point but I think it’s exceedingly silly to attempt to make it into something noble and useful. It’s not. It’s the easiest way of making gold available and that’s exactly why we do it. Why deny this simple truth?

You lack the basic understanding of flipping. All those website explaining buying low and selling high is Bullkittenting. It is buying at low price, and selling at normal. You price high, you get undercut.

this is becoming basically an argument of “financial and economic – literates” vs “non literates (ethics, fair and all that excuses)”

So many of the against “flipping arguments” are wrong. I will be honest, investment is my real world specialty.

Fungalfoot.7213:

Hell Avenger.7021:

Assuming we are raising the price. Actual effect is we are lowering the price. You don’t understand what market maker do, how can I even explain it to you beside give you a course on Finance and investment?

Please do explain to me how you are lowering prices by buying up all the cheap goods from the trading post and marking them up.

it is explained many times in previous posts. go read them

Fungalfoot.7213:

Hell Avenger.7021:

Your definition of price gouging is …. LOl… That is price gouging???

Anyway, what if someone like to play the market and economy. Why are you forcing them to go out if they don’t want to? Sounds like you want to impose your way of life on others. I am sorry COF got nerfed, get real.

Because you are hurting the market and subsequently other players through your selfish actions? By raising prices you are increasing the grind for buyers and making their gameplay experience less enjoyable overall.

Eventually this will spiral completely out of control as more and more people are forced into it. The shortsighted greed of the community will prove disastrous in the long run. Let’s look for a solution before it gets worse, shall we?

Assuming we are raising the price. Actual effect is we are lowering the price. You don’t understand what market maker do, how can I even explain it to you beside give you a course on Finance and investment?

no wonder prices are all over the place today. people don’t know the historic cost anymore.

Gehenna.3625:

The problem with the TP power trading or whatever you want to call it, is that you have people making money with money. As in real life this causes inflation.

Game economies suffer from the same thing, but as a criticism I would like to add that GW2 is particularly vulnerable to this kitten much of the game is linked to gold. This is of course to also accomodate the gem exchange, but it is a weakness in the game. Not to say that other games do not suffer from it, but honestly GW1 had a lot less problems with it, some exploits aside.

It’s not easy though because any money system will have this problem. As soon as you bring in a tradeable currency, the money game begins.

In the end this game doesn’t really reward people for completing their stories. You can buy an exotic piece on the TP for a gold or so, but you get yellows as reward for completing the story. Bottom line is that this game rewards farming gold more than anything else. In essence when you are level 80, yellow gear is useful only for extracting materials from it. That’s an odd purpose for a gear tier.

Also GW2 doesn’t have that much BoP gear, almost everything of any use is tradeable.

So, my conclusion is that the reward system is flawed. It rewards the wrong things. Farming gold or grinding for gold is what is rewarded most. Beating content, be it story line, higher difficulty mobs (vets, champs, bosses), achievements etc do have rewards but they don’t compare and it usually involves gold and crappy items (that yo can sell for gold). Endgame is about collecting gold and laurels pretty much. For laurels you need to log in once a day and do your daily and for the rest it is simply farming gold. Why? Because it’s easier to get gold than it is to get what’s needed otherwise to get the item you want.

I submit that that’s the main reason why Guild Wars 2 is actually Gold Wars: a flawed reward system that encourages people to focus on making gold.

In the real world, trading doesn’t cause inflation. What are you talking about? Printing money cause inflation, so does money multiplier effect.

For GW2, the biggest money printing machine was COF p1, and there is no money multiplier effect in GW2 due to no lending.

The fact that TP charge 15% on sell, it is destroying Gold which has a deflationary effect.

Fungalfoot.7213:

SoPP.7034:

You talk about investment, what about investment into the game? Being good at PvP and WvW nets you nothing and we’ve already discussed PvE.

That is indeed the crux of the issue here. What takes the most skill typically yields the smallest rewards. Just look at WvWvW for a good example of this. If you go around skirmishing and taking key points with a small group you’re really just hurting yourself since mindlessly zerging around in a massive group will net you far more. But I digress as that’s a topic for another thread.

Players shouldn’t be encouraged to sit in Lion’s Arch and price gouge in order to make a profit. Players should be encouraged to on grand adventures and explore the world. This needs fixing.

Your definition of price gouging is …. LOl… That is price gouging???

Anyway, what if someone like to play the market and economy. Why are you forcing them to go out if they don’t want to? Sounds like you want to impose your way of life on others. I am sorry COF got nerfed, get real.

SupahSpankeh.8452:

The greater the gap between the in-game poor and rich, the more money ANet will make from gems-to-gold transactions.

Ergo, nothing will be done. Move along.

Remember, we all started equal. Through luck, skill and time the top crust emerges. Of course, sometimes it is pure dumb luck but hey in the real world it is the same thing.

I see a lot of people are using “ethics” as way to justify TP trading as unethical. Here, I think it is ethical and create value. Your ethical value and mine are different. Don’t impose your ethical value, when it is often mixed up with jealousy.

Poledo.3256:

The problem isn’t so much in having a daily task, it’s the snowball effect it seems to cause in Developers brains. “Ok we gave them dailies, and we still need more content. I know, let’s give them something else that isn’t a daily quest but it can only be once a day.”

And then it continually snowballs from there, as more and more daily or time gated things keep getting implemented. As the MMO gets older, if you want to keep up on daily tasks you have dedicate your playtime to nothing else. GW2 isn’t there yet but this is a recurring trend in MMO’s and I hope we can stop with the pattern in GW2 soon.

Now that I agree. As time gated content increases, it will be a BIG issue.

Artificial limit sucks, but at the same time… OMG THE WORLD BOSSES ARE KILLING ME, thank god they are only once per day chest… Now a days, I simply dont do World Boss anymore.

Mckeone.9804:

What most of you seem to be forgetting is the role of speculation on the market. I’d bet that the reason price would go up with a slight increase in supply is that people with excess income would take advantage of the extra liquidity and pull the precursors off the market, thus jerking prices upward. But if there was too much extra liquidity, they couldn’t corner the supply, which would lead to eventual price decreases.

This is similar to what JP Morgan and Goldman were doing in the commodities markets.

That is far from what JPM energy trader were doing… LOL… they were abusing the taxpayers through regulation loopholes.

Flipper is basically Market Makers in the real world sense. They increase trading volume and make the market more efficient. At the same time, they close up the arbitrage profit one can make.

Izaya.2906:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Izaya.2906:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Because the market should be based off of actual buy and sell offers, not flippers. Let the market normalize itself without the leeches.

But it does, if no one is willing to pay for the price that the flipper posts it simply won’t sell.

*sigh*

Of course that would be true … if flippers didn’t post lower than the sell offers and buy higher than the other buy offers, thus making others putting in buy offers higher than the flippers and making theirs the lowest of the sell offers. So yes, the flippers stuff almost always sells. But the guy they undercut doesn’t always sell.

Really … why do I even try using common sense …

Eh … I’m off to bed. Enjoy the rest of your discourse …

OP said that the solution will stop inflating prices artificially.

Like gaspara.4079 said, artificial inflation won’t be caused by flippers, unless they have total monopoly of the item, which rarely happens.

Items won’t be magically cheaper because you can’t flip. If people are willing to buy at 10g and multiple non flippers list lower than that, it will eventually hit and normalize at 10g no matter what.

And not to mention the problems it can bring, let’s say player A bought Dusk wanting to make Twilight then he changes his mind or anet nerfs GS for the class he is playing so he won’t be using it anymore. Instead of being able to resell it(probably at a loss because of taxes and low volatility of precursor prices), he will be stuck with a 600g item that he can’t liquidate.

I’m sure he won’t be pleased because everything bought on TP will be account bound automatically.

Just to add something, inflation is created through gold creation.. or AKA money printing in the real world sense. (Let’s not go into lending and money multipliers..)

I killed Zhaitan… wait, I still dont know what happened. It just seem that it shows up and died on the mountain without me doing anything.

To be very honest, the grandiose claim that “I made 100 gold a day on flipping” is BS. It is a exaggeration. That kind of profit can only be made they invested in the right thing and a mechanic changed in game and made it so much more expensive.

Chullster.3608:

@ the person who said if he bought level 10 blues to then sell on later, I’d say they’re only blues, probably worth less than a silver each and even greens are now merchant fodder.

@Those people who think Flippers provide a service, I fail to see what service would be lost if there were no flippers.

People who want items would either buy those listed, or if none were available, then put in a buy order, exactly like it is now, only there would be no premium paid to the middle man. I actually thought US based players who love capitalism would rejoice at “cutting out the middle man” especially as in a game like GW2, as they add nothing.

@people who would buy too much of an item then wish to sell it back, I suggest primarily working out how much you require rather than guessing and if a mistake is made just store/destroy/merch the spare items.

@Megaobo. I fail to see why the price of desirable items would suddenly rise, can you please explain your reasoning?

@Celebratty You are correct, it’s an MMO not the real world, and I’d rather the TP offer the great service that is does already without the negatives of real world markets. And as it’s run by one entity; Anet, I think such a move would be feasible.

I do not think flipping does “nothing beneficial” I think it’s actually worse and is detrimental to the game by inflating prices for the many for the benefit of the few.
The profit gold made by flippers does not come out of thin air, some other player(s) handed it over.

@People who think I only started this topic as a complaint that “I can’t make money like Power Trader X” I can assure you I have no need for more in game income, nor am I jealous of people who played the market and have 1000s of gold lying around.
I have enough legendaryes, a character for each profession all kitted out in full exo/asc zerkers gear, spare gold for fluff…etc etc etc

I started this topic to see if there were any other downsides that I had not noticed.

Other than “People wont like it”, speculation of price changes, mistakes in purchasing stuff and those who have no problem with flipping, speculation and manipulation being aghast, I see no other reasons not to make the change.

So you are a COF farmer huh? COF farming nerfing getting to you already?

Great COF farmers are out in drove….

You do know TP trader forego playing for fun time to flip the market? You trade time to do events, trader trade time to monitor the market.

LOLOLOL, someone who cannot flip is suggest everyone to be blocked from flipping.

I don’t quite understand about Karma boost and trade in. Do you have 95% karma boost on while buying the boxes?? They would refund your karma?

If Champ drop loot based on the area level they are in, I guess that will fix the possible mats influx. However, shouldn’t other things be scaled up to your level? like weapons etc.

With the new Champion loot coming into play. Will Queensdale Champion loot train be the new farming train for everyone? Discuss. Cheap mats?

SoLeciTO.3490 and Wolfheart.1938, you do realize you two’s posts comprise most of this thread right? It looks like a lot of pro dueling posts, but they are mostly from you two.

Panda Shepard.1248:

Celtus.8456:

it creates a certain community

Yes, it does. That’s part of what I’m afraid of.

Just let there be an option to be turn off dueling requests and not see duels happening. I don’t care otherwise.

it promotes kitten mentality or school yard bully mentality. There is enough of that in WVW, where 29 years old act like 16 picking on others.

GW2 story is really lacking… compare to GW1, that was better. ALSO, the way people having conversation in cutscene, one person stand left and one person stand right… wow… talk about low budget fix