Guild Wars 2

I get a laugh at how perception doesn’t match reality. D/P was viewed as unviable because s/d overshadowed it but now that s/d is gone d/p is considered a top spec. Mind you it wasn’t hardly changed between patches.

d/p is a lot more fun than s/p but if you can’t handle more than a few buttons s/p will give you similar effectiveness… s/d still works fine but it’s not godmode anymore so people think it’s trash… funny huh?

I don’t understand the desire to increase the cd on shadowstep. Isn’t it the only utility that thieves have that can remove conditions?

Just play helseth’s build, 30/25/0/0/15 i think

FYI, since you did it in the video and in the post, it’s lose not loose. It would have been fun to see the whole match, close for sure!

Jumper.9482:

Hype.8032:

However, before dec 10th it was widely viewed as underpowered and not worth using.

Actually it has been on-par with the S/D Acrobat since the Trickery changes were first introduced.
At the moment one on each team is practically required in group play for that incredibly overpowered/gamechanging 21s cooldown aegis+stab intterruption.

Calling d/p trickery required compared to say a bunker guardian in teams isn’t an equal comparison. But god forbid a thief having a role in a team right? I don’t see anything that makes that spec op, it wasn’t required before dec 10th and it wasn’t really buffed (you can argue it was but in my experience it’s roughly on par with before). The only reason why it’s considered required at all right now is because s/d was nerfed.

I’m not trying to be combative or insult you in any way, I’m just really surprised you think that spec is OP.

I agree with Caed, our go-to utilities don’t need nerfed at all, the worse utilities need to be buffed to come up to them. Nearly every build I run (including s/d) has inf signet, shadow step, and shadow refuge and you propose to lengthen the CD on all of them?

I also don’t understand the view that d/p trickery is OP like you’re claiming. I’ve played it as my primary build before and after dec 10th and it has hardly changed. However, before dec 10th it was widely viewed as underpowered and not worth using. I understand what you’re trying to do but I disagree with the baseline for your balancing. You don’t see d/p thieves rampaging across the mists like warriors/necros have in recent months, they’re not in the same league.

All in all I probably support more than half your suggestions so that’s good I guess. I’ve long believed that s/d needs a reason to use c/d and TS so maybe your proposed changes would be enough for that?

Since a lot of thieves probably don’t know: While stealthed if you start a backstab motion and steal before it finishes you’ll proc mug and fury and rip boons and teleport to your opponent before backstab connects. Starting the backstab animation before stealing allows you to use it when otherwise the damage from mug would cause revealed. 10/30/0/0/30 just makes sense for d/p and s/p. I hear some people using it with s/d but honestly I’d only use 10/30/0/30/0 with s/d. Trickery is amazing though. Stunning a warrior with stability is amazing, it makes steal almost another stunbreak since you can counter daze anyone who stuns you.

I prefer less RNG. With traits like slight of hand you get more power in your build but you control how it’s used. Adds skill instead of hoping you didn’t waste your RNG trait on some weak stun/daze a few seconds before skullcrack.

While I understand what you’re saying, most builds going deep into acro aren’t going deep into trickery. So you’d really only have poison, mug, and stunbreak. Not that different than managing shadow step as a gap closer, gap creator, stunbreak, condition clear. We’re already used to managing a skill with several uses already.

I’ve been testing this horrible trait and it has ported me out of shadow refuge no less than 3 times in a short window of playing. Link it to steal and make steal a stunbreak or something. Think about how slight of hand is so integral to some builds, HtC should augment steal in a similar way. Hell add in another 20% cooldown reduction on steal in the trait while you’re at it. What other classes have traits like HtC and last refuge that screw the player over so much?

Guys stop feeding the troll. He’s so hungry but don’t do it!

Dee Jay.2460:

And S/D…to be honest….I’m not noticing the changes.

If you didn’t notice changes to IR then you haven’t played s/d yet. Just try messing around with the npc warrior in the mists… that kittener will chain stun you 4 times in a row. You don’t notice a difference? Not a good troll dude….

Honestly, Anet is just trolling us. Powercreeping the kitten out of other classes while nerfing us continually. They knew this was a stupid idea based on our feedback.

anet this is bad design please fix it.

That’s reasonable. The more Anet tweaks venoms without actually fixing them the more the community will be PO’d with them. I really wish they’d revise them. Combine poison with torment and make that 1 venom.

ens.9854:

Unfortunately thief will not see buffs because in pvp they will always be the best at killing other glass cannons out of nowhere, and there are tons of thieves running around to make sure nobody can play those builds. Now the thieves just spend all day trying to kill each other instead (I’ve even moved away from full glass thief to give me an edge over them).

They only seem weak because they have forced themselves out of the meta by being too efficient at taking out their prey.

I agree with most of what you said but I very much disagree that the only reason thieves look weak is because there are less glass cannons. Thieves look weak because we’ve been nerfed while several key classes have had massive power creep. Thief is a dualist class but it is at a disadvantage while fighting about half the other classes.

Thieves are still one of the best roamers, we’re still the fastest. The game has had some pretty big power creep while you’ve been gone but thieves have only gotten weaker. It’s more challenging for us than it’s ever been.

Mainhand dagger builds rely on stealth and blinds but it’s good to put a little bit of dodging into those builds either with vigor (10/30/0/0/30) or the 15 point trait in acro (0/30/20/20/0). Not that it’s required though. Sword/dagger relies much more on evades and hardly any stealth or blinds.

Rather than your traits try using 10/30/0/0/30 or 0/30/20/20/0, I swear by both those trait setups. Your overall rotation is fine, it’d probably fit with the first trait setup the most (that setup is more about gap closing and keeping blinds up vs the 2nd more about continually stealthing through BP+HS). I wouldn’t put dodges in your standard rotation, you’re not playing an acrobatic s/d thief! Dodge when you need to avoid a big hit. If you have trouble with initiative with either build then you’re not autoattacking enough.

I’ve got 10/30/30/0/0 d/p +sb in my head for spvp. Only using the heal venom as well as basilisk venom for the venom share. More tanky but less damage than 10/30/0/0/30. More useful at the mid fight but not useless in 1v1.

Why are people talking trash about flesh wurm… it’s a fantastic stunbreak.

Ele and engy have a very similar feel to me. I feel like i’m spamming skills with both those professions. Necro feels a little bit more calculated with skill use but it’s still less than thief and mesmer. I like Necro over Elementalist, less RSI at least

glaphen.5230:

Good player can easily find the Mesmer in less than a second through experience. Easiest way to win would be a zerker build and then Cloak and Dagger->Steal->Backstab->Heartseeker->Heartseeker->Heartseeker. If that somehow didn’t work use Shadow Refuge and be prepared to dodge Illusionary Wave or Temporal Curtain. Next stalk him at 3-4k range away and repeat in 30-60 seconds till you have the kill.

Or you can try beating him with skill….. Your advice is to blow all your initiative then run away until it’s back and you wonder why people hate thieves? Try managing your init and you’ll find you don’t need to tuck tail and run every 10 seconds.

ZilentNight.5089:

When are Ranks being removed?

This is most likely the most important question for the spvp community, we would like an exact date or time frame.
Why is this so important?
Many of the players are stuck between finishers, for example a rank 34 player can still achieve rank 40 if we have 2-3 weeks.
Please give us the date or at least a time frame so we can set achievable goals and not get disheartened when we run out of time abruptly.

2-3 weeks? That’s pretty kitten fast.

RedSpectrum.1975:

Hype.8032:

A d/d thief perma stealthing off of your clones is pretty cheesy but you’re playing with a PU mesmer (oh so cheesy) so honestly anything the thief does should be considered fair game.

How is this cheesy? It’s a legitimate tactic against mesmers when you use DD, and it also requires critical decision making since a lot of the time you may need to keep stealthing just to find the right opening to attack and not take a large amount of damage from phantasms or potential shatters

Any build that overly relies on stealth in wvw is cheesy imo. Using that same build in spvp is fine because you’ll lose the point using it. Getting ~80% stealth up time by timing cnd’s off clones is lame, not fun to play against, and it’s really easy to do (no critical decision making necessary).

I’m R39 and looking at the 45k glory needed to get to 40 I can say it’ll take me at least a month to get it. I will be highly annoyed if they strip my rank this close to the next tier.

Until you’re ready to drop the training wheels and have a fair fight, I’d suggest you work on your teamwork. In a 2v1 you should never get stomped. Start ressing your downed teammate and daze the thief (F3) before the stomp finishes. Torch really is strong against thieves even though the phantasm sucks so bad. Staff in general is pretty great too, phase retreat will be a lot stronger than the thief’s sword return after Dec 10th. Chaos storm and Chaos armor are great to help with backstabs.

A d/d thief perma stealthing off of your clones is pretty cheesy but you’re playing with a PU mesmer (oh so cheesy) so honestly anything the thief does should be considered fair game.

Fortus.6175:

And I approve this message, this should also be a sticky on top of the forum, next to the warrior one.

My list:
10-16k backstabs need to go
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9d4Og8KbEM

Perma ability to reset fights and run away is pretty much, in the right hand, 100% immortality, specially when they can make an attrition war last forever until you die or they simply walk away.

This is gold! I think we just found a mascot for the thread!!

Travlane.5948:

Hype.8032:

Using a PU mesmer in a duel is pure cheese, but you know that already right? As for your question, he was probably using 20/0/30/x/x like messiah said. Really, if it hasn’t sunk in yet…. stop using PU mesmer in duels and learn a real build.

Cheers!

Edit: p/d is a tanky/bunker build but you can’t bunker a point with it. So it’s useless in spvp unless you find a way to make venom share work for your team.

you “can” but it requires a few utitlies like CALTROPS, smokescreen/blinding powder and shadow refuge (heals like 4k with sneak attacks 2x)….

a lil trick i learned is u can get 2 sneak attacks per shadow refuge…. soon as you cast shadow refuge which gives aoe blind heals and removes condis…. mash 1 1 1 1 for sneak attack then stop attacking/drop target and roll in 1 second…. u will enter stealth again at the very last moment and get another free sneak attack if you are using carrion/dire u dont have to stay in stealth. i never do unless its a mesmer using a crappy PU build.

You CANNOT bunker a point in high level spvp with p/d, you’re less effective in team fights than a necro or engi, and you have no burst so roaming is out as well. P/D is not viable at high levels but hell you can farm hotjoin with anything.

In your calcs for uptime on dodges/stealth/evade you didn’t mention their scepter block that adds a ton of torment also. It’s a cheese build and I’m very glad it doesn’t work well in spvp where I spend most my time.

DrLane.5248:

Sword needed a nerf for sure , as alll the mechanics from S/D or S/P.

THe skill 2 is just too powerfull when you have infinite init , becuz u can use it to break stun , avoid dmge , cure condi , and many more.

Then the endurence regen is way too high considering u have vigor on heal + regenend while dodging.and when you run out of , just use the signet for more dodge spaming.If you manage to use all your end , which is nto usual , u can use teh skill 3 while it regens.

IF you cant see that sword was way too powerfull the way it ws used , its becuz you are blind or smthing.Its like the most permissive gameplay u can find on thief , infinite dodge ,infinite init , decent cure condition , very good mobility .And dmge still good becuz you have no down time of dps , u can just use 2 , 1 , 3 , then port back again ( repeat this gaY(mer) pattern for ever.

nb. i play thief and i played s/D thief for 3 month and when you go back to smthing else like a 10 30 0 0 30 d/P , you just learn again how to play , and what a theif should grants u : high risk but high reward.

I have a very hard time understanding what you’re saying. From what I gathered, I can agree that s/d is too powerful, but Anet is going about changing it in the absolute worst way. LS needs to steal 2 boons and the damage needs to be dropped, IR should always be instant cast but the cost or distance can be adjusted. Even making IS have to work around some kind of LOS rule would be fair. Anet is simply wrong with this decision and it’s sad to see thieves losing another 2 weapon sets.

Burnfall, since you seem curious, you can do the same thing with necros but it takes 2 cooldowns. Cast the wurm somewhere before the fight, start spectral walk then start the stomp, activate the wurm to teleport away, then use spectral walk to get back to the body before the stomp animation finishes. Hell, you can do the same thing with mesmer staff #2 and the teleport utility to get back to the body. Mesmers can even use portals to stomp if done quickly.

Thread-Necrooooooooooo

Haha… sorry messiah but the balthazar concept doesn’t work with withdraw. I’m sure you can get better with it but it was painful watching you try to line up the fire blast. Maybe rune of the noble (in wvw) would be better?

Shu, I enjoyed the video. I don’t think you were benefited by having s/p on weapon swap though; your initiative regeneration is too low for that set, that’s why you were always running out. You had really good patience, more than I usually have.

Using a PU mesmer in a duel is pure cheese, but you know that already right? As for your question, he was probably using 20/0/30/x/x like messiah said. Really, if it hasn’t sunk in yet…. stop using PU mesmer in duels and learn a real build.

Cheers!

Edit: p/d is a tanky/bunker build but you can’t bunker a point with it. So it’s useless in spvp unless you find a way to make venom share work for your team.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Hype.8032:

Can we please get the sword nerf in pve/wvw only please! Thief is already weaker in spvp than the other formats so why apply nerfs there?

I think the cast time was uncalled for period. They should just make it go on the same stunned CD during CC as every other skill.

I agree Viking, if they still like this type of change then it should still be instant cast but not work while stunned. However, I doubt they know how to easily implement that so they’re being lazy and giving us a poor man’s version that ruins the set.

I don’t agree with the nerf at all but separating mechanics like this is a terrible idea. It’s just as bad as putting a different reveal duration in spvp/pve. Thieves will have even more trouble going between formats with a split like this. Splits are better when you’re tweaking numbers and durations, not core mechanics of skills.

If this is a bad idea for spvp, then it’s a bad idea for pve as well. I’m hoping that they’ll revert it some day and it’s less likely to happen if the majority of players (pve) aren’t inconvenienced by it.

You can use d/d on condition builds and spam db+autoattack but I found when I was leveling that p/d was safer and easier. One move I always liked was casting caltrops then before you drop them steal to your target. It puts the caltrops at their feet right away.

If you’re going power d/d then don’t use db at all.

I almost exclusively play power based thief builds now but I leveled from about your level to 80 using pistol/dagger conditions. You shouldn’t run out of initiative with d/d, so the fact that you are shows you’re doing it wrong. Put 10 points into shadow arts and reduce the cost of cloak and dagger to 4 initiative. Don’t use any skills other than auto attack, backstab, and cloak and dagger. Feel free to use one heart seeker to finish the opponent but that’s it! Pretty much the same combo for p/d, CnD, sneak attack, auto attack twice, CnD again. Caltrops + p/d does pretty good against big groups and stealth gives you time to reposition and breath.

Can we please get the sword nerf in pve/wvw only please! Thief is already weaker in spvp than the other formats so why apply nerfs there?

The fun thing about hotjoin is whatever you want to run is the meta. I even see a decent amount of elementalists there

Personally, I think HS is overpowered in 1v1’s. I’ve always liked the thought that it’d scale the amount it healed per sec depending on how many enemies were in a certain radius. GW2 seems to suffer from a disparity in how skills scale with the size of a fight. Invulnerability is just as good in 1v1 as 50v50, but try saying the same about healing signet and death shroud for example.

Getting to top 100 solo queue with a “barely viable” thief build was my moment of clarity :P

The main reason I keep looking for another alt besides necro is it’s kitten poor ability to get stomps.

Am I the only one that wouldn’t trade what thieves have for what mesmers have? We’re still the premier on-demand dps class, when Mesmers think about growing up they hope they’ll become thieves. I’m only joking a little bit too.

I’m fine with how steal works now. Like Arganthium said, let’s hope Anet makes all our weapon sets usable rather then messing with something that already works (Read: this whole initiative change Dec 10th).

10/30/0/0/30 d/p+sb just like before the patch. I’ll mess around with some s/d variants but I don’t expect any to be successful. I’ve actually gotten quite good on my engineer and necro (not like it’s that hard) so when d/p gets boring I’ll be switching classes rather than switching builds.

This is a massive troll. If he wasn’t a troll he’d know it’s just about the only condi removal thief has and it’s on a 30 second cooldown. Thieves are free kills for competent engineers; I play both quite well… do you OP?

Edit: he trolled then left, this thread will probably die if we stop feeding it.

I only have about 200 hours on my engi and thieves are free kills on it. P/S. healing turret, nades, bombs, rocket boots. The condi classes (necro/engi) have easy times with thieves. I’ve been in the top 100 solo queue on my thief several times and I can confidently say a thief has to severely outplay even average engies to have a chance at beating them. Chill them and blind them and they’ll be running in short order.

Yeah sorry to say dude, but this is a player side problem, not balance. The chill grenade is OP against thieves.