You don’t need Headshot to interrupt people. A well-timed Basilisk hit or Scorpion Wire will do the trick in a pinch.
There is a difference between a definition and an interpretation. Interpretations can be wrong.
Is something defined if it doesn’t appear in any respectable dictionary? “Power creep” is nothing but a colloquial term that describes itself to you.
Perhaps some day Merriam Webster will ruin someone’s morning (see: “mission creep”, which is surely a linguistic ancestor, here), but that day is not today.
Not really. People are throwing around the term without knowing the exact definition.
You speak as if this term is in the OED.
Power Creep is when new content that is introduced causes older content to become obsolete.
Oh look, Wikipedia.
That’s only one possible meaning for the term, your classic Everquest-style definition. I’m pretty sure that people can figure out from context what it means in this thread. Definition scolds are irritating.
See what I did there? I used a word that has more than one meaning.
^ You don’t always get Blindness as your Combo on this skill: if there’s an older field underneath you, you’ll combo with that instead.
The new behavior of the Generosity/Purity sigils is pretty nice for S/D, which has always struggled with finding ways to deal with conditions.
This was clearly meant to be part of a balanced breakfast, i.e. combined with SoM and life leech from food. I suspect that they might amp up the gain a bit in a future patch, but ANet has to be careful with combat heals, so it’s better to release it somewhat underpowered and see what players do with the thing.
Doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to compare this trait with Executioner or Hidden Killer, which do different things. It’s better set next to Assassin’s Reward or Shadow’s Rejuvenation.
This is a hilarious build. I think that I might keep a suit of armor in my bank just for running this spec in a karma train blob.
I feel like you need Blinding Powder in there somewhere though, maybe in place of Shadowstep.
^ Extremely so. I have a feeling that P/D is going to be the dominant WvW meta soon, thanks to Krait and such.
Mine is fine; S/P + SB running 3/0/0/5/6 with Lyssa runes and a mix of Knight’s/Soldier’s/Zerker’s. My damage loss was fairly modest because I didn’t rely too much on critical damage to begin with. No problem killing the specs that I used to be able to kill, or capturing objectives.
Will probably adjust it in the coming days, though. Lyssa’s #6 doesn’t really do it for me anymore without the free boons, but there isn’t yet an obvious replacement. I’m leaning towards sets that give boons on heal though, since I do like Lyssa #4.
that’s a l2p problem
No, that’s an answer to the question “why soak up cc when you can dodge it?”. Pay attention to the flow of conversation. To review why you’d soak CC instead of dodging it, here it is again, with smaller words this time:
- can’t evade the CC anyway
- dodge not possible
- rather deal damage
Nothing else to it, really. As I said to the other poster, this isn’t a defense of AE, it’s just a list of facts that highlight how silly your question was.
It’s not necessarily a bad thing to be running a Thief spec that ArenaNet isn’t aware exists.
By “not work” do you mean that it doesn’t fire until after the channel is over? It’s always been like that for Lyssa runes, which are also on-elite.
Critical Haste the trait is not the same thing as Haste the utility skill. They should just call it “Critical Quickness”.
Well..I did say it’s a PvE trait, so the circumstance is PvE, lol.
I think you’re confused because I’m not arguing for this trait in PvP, nor am I saying that any of the new traits are best for any PvP.
I think you’re confused. You said “only worthwhile trait in any circumstance”, so I’d like to know what kind of crazy criterion you are using to determine that uselessness of the other five traits. Two of them are well-suited for WvW, after all. There’s no calling the new SA GM trait worthless: I’ll be throwing that on ram operators, full stop.
The problem is that 1.25 seconds is nothing.
To be clear, that’s a problem with AE, not with my response to NinjaEd, who deserves to be challenged for what he said about Stability.
However, making a full investment to the acro tree is a pretty substantial reduction to your potential damage output with very little return in utility.
This is total nonsense. Fluid Strikes is excellent as a damage multiplier (meshes well with the style of the line), boon duration is good for extending Fury/Might, and Feline Grace/Vigorous Recovery/Pain Response are excellent utility traits. Also a 3k increase to your baseline health of 10.8k, because why not.
Ultimately, the acro tree overall is a very awkward fit for a stealth build.
For a full stealth build, sure. Works OK with 2 SA though, which is why you might see AE on an S/D Thief if ArenaNet sees fit to boost the duration a little bit. There are already viable setups that use 5 Acro, so it’s just a matter of making the 6th point worth it.
People can pretend all they want that AE is good.
It’s so kind of you to give people permission to have an opinion on something.
why soak up cc when you can dodge it?
Just in case this is a serious question, you’d want to soak up CC with Stability when you:
- can’t evade the CC (Static Field cannot be evaded)
- aren’t able to dodge (no endurance, immobilized, or don’t see the hit coming)
- want to keep dealing damage (can’t be using skills during a manual dodge)
^ Add 150% to your old crit damage. You went from 270% → 231%, which is a ~14.4% drop on every crit. Naturally your non-crit damage stayed the same, so you have to modify that number by your crit chance.
^ That doesn’t make sense as an explanation. You have at least 30% boon duration with a GM trait in Acrobatics, so if they made a transcription mistake it should have been 1.3 seconds instead of 1.25.
I didn’t have a chance to pick up this up last night, but I’ll look at it later if nobody else does.
Some people are talking about using the confusion on steal for WvW, but if you do this, you lose out on Sleight of Hand (a daze that goes through stability). I guess if you’re playing absolutely solo with a condi build, that’s ok, but in any serious team setting, that daze is clutch for preventing stomps. It’s also a way to prevent burst when you get stunned without a stunbreaker available.
And what none of those things do, is give you another cover condition for your bleeds, which is seriously important for people who rely on condition damage as a Thief. It also creates a difficult situation for the enemy that you hit. Stomps can be foiled with stealths (we have a couple of those, as Thieves), and people without stunbreakers available might actually have to live with the consequences of a decision.
“That’s OK”? Is there some kind of condi-Thief accreditation process that I wasn’t privy to?
It’s a PvE trait that is a minor passive boost to the min/max DPS glass cannon build and it’s the only worthwhile trait in any circumstance out of all the new GM traits.
What kind of “circumstance” could this possibly be true under? PvP only, no consumables, Final Destination? You’re out of your tree if you think that Resilience of Shadows doesn’t have a place in WvW, or that Bewildering Ambush isn’t a great pick for a P/D condi.
Loving the new change for WvW. I got backstabbed a few times by random Thieves tonight, and now it’s easier to just turn around and smoke them.
Rune of Strength is probably a better workhorse power set. You’ve got 65% Might duration with 20 Acrobatics, and the +7% bonus from the #6 slot is easier to maintain than the 10% from Scholar’s. Eagle also seems good. Lyssa remains usable, mostly because of the #4 slot.
I am actually kind of intrigued by the new Rune of the Water set, though not for this specific build (where you need damage).
The new Sigil of Purity is looking good for the S/D Thief. It’s on-hit rather than on-crit now, and doesn’t go on cooldown unless it actually removes a condition.
Well with constant evasion and stealing boons especially like an ele guard or engi, you basically hit like a truck (stole all might stacks, unlike BT), while evading over and over. I was fine with the increased initiative cost, but then they nerfed the pressure LS had and kept the increased cost. It could hit pretty hard but was never meant to snipe I agree. With the pressure gone and the cost up and IR nerf you can’t wiggle people down as effective as before.
Ricky Reality™ here: S/D benefitted from the upgrade to init regen, since it was never able to really maximize the pre-December Opportunist in the first place. Larc does not cleave, and you don’t have a big multi-hit skill like Pistol Whip to lean on.
tl;dr the init change partially compensated for the costs that never got rolled back.
^ Even those match-ups depend on the builds in play. Against a P/D condition Thief, for example, a Warrior is at a disadvantage no matter how good their execution and mechanics are.
I don’t know if you are joking but I agree. Thieves really only have one way of dealing damage and one of defense which is stealth. The problem with this reliance on stealth is it makes thief builds very one dimensional which leads to a weak class. Thieves don’t have any inactive defense such as blocks, protection, or agesis. We rely on stealth and dogging which are both active defense and active defense isn’t as effective as inactive defense. The thief will become a strong class when it is no longer dependent on stealth.
I understand that there are builds that do not use stealth but they are not very strong and they don’t hold up against good players.
There are so many wrong things here, that I don’t even know where to start.
- Thieves have multiple ways of dealing damage, be it Power-based or Condition-based. Backstab is not the only move that’s viable.
- Stealth is not our only defense. We have more access to dodge than any other profession, because of Feline Grace, potential perma-Vigor, and tons of weapon evades. We even have a utility evade and a healing skill evade, for kitten’s sake.
- Active defense blows passive defense out of the water in this game. Most dangerous moves are telegraphed, and evade > all when it comes to damage mitigation.
- Non-stealth or limited-stealth builds are perfectly fine, and plenty good enough for killing good players. Builds that don’t require stealth time-outs for defense/healing can put constant pressure on an opponent (AKA, like S/D or S/P), which is very powerful.
tl;dr: lolno.
Lyssa will still be good as a condi cleanse post-patch. What you will lose, is the boon bomb. That matters obviously, but it’s not like you’re suddenly more vulnerable to a Necro.
What I think will be nice for S/D Thieves are the Sigil changes. With independent ICDs, a 30 Acrobatics build with Quick Pockets suddenly looks better than it does now.
I saw/fought one Charr S/D Thief this weekend in WvW, while roaming in a two-man. He was pretty good, didn’t use stealth. Lost to him once in a 2v3 fighting in an unfriendly camp (but stomped his two buddies first), beat him later in a 2v1 when he tried to mess with our Briar catapult (because 2v1).
They are sort of rare. Probably will see more of them post-patch though.
:( I guess. Mug looks like an obvious choice but that doesn’t change how I feel for Steal. Compared to ele attunements and mesmer shatters Steal feels so flat. Regardless, thanks for the help.
Then just enjoy the built-in shadowsteps, weapon evades, and the initiative system: AKA the stuff that makes us what we are. If you want your identity wrapped up in a button, there are other professions for that, and that’s why they are different.
Why are there so many traits for one button?!
Because Steal/Shadowstep is our class mechanic. Your traits modify it heavily. No need to take everything, though I’d suggest taking something. If you are paralyzed by indecision, put 10 in DA and take Mug.
I play S/P+SB stealth-free Power-based, and run with a P/D+D/D condition damage Thief. We cover each other’s weaknesses pretty effectively when roaming in WvW.
- I have better burst damage, mobility/chasedown, Blind access, plus can cleave.
- He is tanky as all hell, performs better in long slug-fests, has a lot of condi pressure, and can bail both of us out with AOE stealth.
Works well. Anyone that counters me does poorly against him, and vice-versa.
(edited by Interceptor.2653)
Also never use assassin’s reward or hard to catch as both are absolute garbage (Especially assassin’s reward).
Assassin’s Reward is not that bad. Your options for healing are limited as a Sword-user with deep Acrobatics — especially if you can’t use SoM effectively — and over time the health return is roughly equivalent to what you’d get from Mug.
It could be better as a GM trait, for sure, but calling it “absolute garbage” is hyperbolic nonsense.
I personally do not like P/D. P/D’s 3 attack is kinda counter-intuitive for a ranged main-hand (I think D/P and P/D’s combo attacks should be switched).
I don’t find it counter-intuitive.
P/D is a set meant to fight at range. Shadow Strike helps you maintain distance from an enemy that closed in on you. D/P is a set meant to fight close-up. Shadow Shot gets you into range.
Why would a main Pistol user want to keep getting close to a target? Why would a set without a ranged damage ability want to create space?
I think I recall using 30 in Acrobatics and 30 in Trickery as a viable S/P or S/D build, but how good is it really?
I imagine the 30 in Acrobatics is spread to the vigor trait upon heal, pain response, and quick pockets. I’m just unsure how much of DPS loss it is when you no longer have 30 in Critical Strikes.
You make up for the DPS loss with gear and food, when it comes to WvW. Assassin’s Reward is also an option for your GM trait. People like to make fun of its Healing Power ratio, but you’re also getting extra lift from Withdraw, Regen (from Pain Response), and Mug when you have a couple hundred points of HP.
Also keep in mind that Fluid Strikes and Lead Attacks are pretty good damage multiplier traits, especially considering how often that you’re using Sword #1.
Probably there will be a nice Quick Pockets build for S/D post-patch, with the independent Sigil cooldowns enabling you to combine things like Hydromancy, Battle, Intelligence, Leeching, whatever. I’ll be experimenting with one of these myself.
Speaking of Acrobatics, does anyone actually use Hard to Catch? (Shadowsteps away if dazed/stunned/etc) Wouldn’t this trait be so much more useful if it simply break stun instead of teleporting?
It would, but for some reason they don’t feel like giving us an auto-stunbreaker.
Now that they are throwing away the old trait system, and are no longer forced to have 2 GM traits, 4 Master traits etc, that should give them more flexibility to ultimately make HtC better than it is currently.
“Attack” is sort of a meaningless statistic. It’s not used in any damage calculations. You want to be concerned with Power, and eventually get yourself some ascended weapons.
Some thoughts on your build:
- You have perma-swiftness from your trait setup. The 25% speed boost from Traveler’s is redundant, since you get 33% from Thrill and dodges. Much better runes are available for you.
- Toughness is a little excessive. You have 2558 Armor, which is a lot for a build that relies on evades and blinds.
- Health level is good.
- You need more Power in your damage tripod. Some of that Knight/Cav gear should be traded for something with primary Power, like Zerker. I recommend the combo Zerk/Valk trinkets, since they give a little health without sacrificing crit damage or Power (you just lose Precision, which is the weakest damage stat).
- Opportunist is not really that great anymore. You might want to see if you can drop some points out of CS.
- You have a Steal build with your deep Trickery and Sleight of Hand, but are not taking advantage of the synergy with 10-15 points in DA for Serpent’s Touch, Mug, and Lotus Poison. Consider taking advantage of that if you can. The added utility is worth the damage loss, usually.
The reason I started this thread was because I was baffled at an obvious difference for 2 similar skills of 2 classes, where one is an elite and the other a spawned weapon. It’s because of crap like this this game will never be balanced.
I think that it’s probably more accurate to state that lots of players will never really appreciate the nuances of balance. Here’s a few things about BV that don’t seem to have been mentioned during this nonsense tangent about burst damage… it can be:
- pre-casted and held for up to 30s.
- traited for an extra hit.
- traited to have a reduced cooldown.
- traited to give Might on use.
- traited to leech life on hit.
- traited (ARE YOU NOTICING A PATTERN, GENTLEMEN?) to share out to party members.
- used to activate “on-elite” rune effects.
- randomly reset by Improvisation.
Never mind the profession balance differences, and the casting time and such that have already been mentioned.
I have known about this “feature” since launch and the only thing this added Blind does is get you stuck in combat because you blinded some random critter along the way.
I think I need to start an education campaign on what the word “only” means. There seems to be some confusion in this thread regarding the definition of that term.
If you’ve only used the Blind on random critters… basically, that’s a personal problem. I’ve had my fair share of clutch blinds on IA; while we have better options for AOE in a void, in reality sometimes it’s the only thing you have available. Weapon-swapping is not always desirable, and utilities are not always off cooldown or even slotted in the first place.
It’s not like Thieves are starved for Blinds as is and I’d gladly see the one on Infiltrator’s Arrow go in return for a reduction in Initiative cost.
Or added range, or faster projectile speed, or even given a finisher. Those all have the potential of being useful trades for us. I wouldn’t miss IA’s Blind too much, although I would miss it a little.
^ Those combo trinkets are really good. You drop a few points of the worst damage stat (Precision), and get health in return. I’ll be running the ring/accessory combo for those after the Feature patch.
I wish that I had the foresight to do the same thing on the amulet, but I have zerker’s with an MF infusion, so there’s no helping it now.
^ Hilarious logic, as usual.
It’s not really relevant that IA isn’t strictly the greatest AOE blind available to our class. Fact of the matter: it is an AOE Blind with combat use, so any potential adjustment to range or projectile travel time certain would need to take this into account.
I didn’t see anyone even mention it, so just wanted to make sure that people were aware/hadn’t forgotten.
Are the people in this thread aware that Infiltrator’s Arrow (AKA Shortbow #5) is an AOE Blind? It’s not just for moving around, folks.
Wait until April 15th before you make any rune decisions.
Should go in the bug forum. It will never be read here.
Legendaries are ugly.
Lies. The Dreamer is amazing.
So why exactly are you getting defensive? You’re fighting air here. Clearly state what it was in my little addition that you disagree with, so I can reply for a reason other than not to appear rude.
It’s a treatise on SS vs. RFI, in a thread where that wasn’t even being debated in the first place. For kitten’s sake, the OP was very specific about his utility set: he uses both. It was never in question or ambiguous. So to recap:
- Didn’t make an argument in context, and
- Accused me of implying something that I did not.
Where am I permitted to get annoyed with you, exactly? Do I need to wait for some kind of karate move, before it’s socially acceptable to respond?
He implied it, and you debated with him on the same premise, otherwise you’d have simply dismissed him by stating “both are being used” much earlier.
I am not responsible for his logic or reasoning, or for your inferences. I’ve been clear about the role of Shadowstep all along. Not a single post of mine in this thread has been edited, so feel free to peruse at your leisure.
^ The only reason I mentioned it, is because in WvW you will notice the difference when it comes to objectives.
I run a power-based Sword build, and roll with a P/D condi spec guy (who uses Dire etc, same basic build as you). He’s un-movable in duels, but not great at flipping objectives (cannot kill fast enough), and less useful than I am in large-scale combat. The difference is the Power-based damage.
Alas, I was adding to the feud between you and caveman, the nature of which implied taking both was out of the question and that a choice had to be made between the two.
He might have implied it; I did not. This thread has always been about condition removal options for an S/D Lyssa Thief in a post-4/15 world. While RFI vs. SS may take other forms with different specs, in this particular situation you will have both, and RFI is almost always going to be your first-option stunbreaker because of what it brings to the table (and what it does not).
This is an absurdly straight-forward concept, and every S/D Thief in the post-12/10 universe knows exactly what sort of pressures that conditions pose, so it’s not entirely clear to me why there’s any confusion about the order of operations here.
“without sacrificing any damage”
This is where you are wrong, though. P/D is really good for a lot of reasons, but DPS isn’t one of them. Power-based builds will always smoke you here.
Shadow step and Roll for initiative are both useful but when it comes to picking a utility it comes down to how you intend to play, how your build is designed to react to a scenario.
Or you just take them both, like the OP does.
if u use k&M how do u not see how much better SS is over simple old RFI…
Because I know how to do math. RFI’s worst case scenario is instant cast. SS’s worst case scenario is longer than instant, because you are using your mouse for other things in combat, and the geography of ground-target is not always going to cooperate. It’s not like Infiltrator’s Signet or Steal, which you can safely use without a real target.
Average case of SS is always going to be slower, as a result.
Never mind that the casting time isn’t even the only reason to use RFI first. There are other synergies and effects that have nothing to do with stunbreaking, that will still make you want to use RFI first.
i am not getting off subject because lyssa is the way to go for S/D. specially if your worried about conditions and don’t want to go in to shadow arts.
Lyssa is the way to go until April 15th, at which point it gets a lot murkier. Without the omni-removal and all boons, other rune sets start looking a lot better by comparison. You give up a lot of damage by going Lyssa with S/D: Precision is the worst DPS stat, and S/D with heavy Acrobatics/Trickery isn’t an on-crit build that you can leverage on the other end.
Fact of the matter is, if you can approximate the condition removal of new Lyssa (which you can do with condi food and Shadowstep), and live with the leftover gap, there may be some good alternative options when the dust settles.
That’s the topic of this thread, a topic that you’re basically ignoring.
telling people to use Saffron-scented Poultry Soup …. u need more than that ….
Yeah, like Shadow’s Embrace, RFI, Withdraw, Shadowstep, and Infiltrator’s Strike. All things that the OP has, if one bothered to look at his build.