I would disagree. If they used “he” then we have a more narrow potential for who weakened Balthazar, specifically it would be an individual male.
By saying “they”, people have theorized not just Menzies, but also the other Six Gods may have weakened him, or the Elder Dragons – if Balthazar had used “he” or “she” or even “it” then those theories would not come to be.
Thus by having it as “they”, ArenaNet created more potential lines of thought for theorycrafting. Which they’ve repeatedly said they love watching develop.
All the same, the choice of pronoun is definitely not proof that he is referring to a group.
What the “corrupted part” was doing was turning his magic against himself. If he when resplitting had kept that corrupted part in a singular aspect, he would not want to revive himself with all five parts anyways.
If Bauer was not a lair in his journal about his praises of the Unseen Ones, he might have set Caudecus up giving that corrupted aspect to him while helping Xera revive Lazarus with 4 of him.
As to him not being able to survive without all his aspects, I doubt it. Naveed had been on the run for weeks perhaps longer and Lazarus did not seem weakened or desperate. He seemed very non-chalant about reclaiming his final aspect.
And I think Caudecus’ comment is not only further lack-of-knowledge but rather him saying something like “I’d kill the prisoner, but I don’t want to deal with the blood and body” – in this case, “essence” is just basically dead mursaat magic/soul/whatever that he doesn’t want lingering in his home and not something that can have any effect on anything.
OK, are we really sure we can state that so matter-of-factly? I’ve not seen it as explicitly confirmed anywhere, or maybe you can direct me to it?
Wasn’t stating it matter of factly, but rather if I remember that’s what it was about. I believe it was explained at some point but can’t recall.
Because, sure enough, here is Balthazar all of a sudden in the latest episode, so while the Gods left all that time ago, where did they go to? Could they not have been in a place of proximity which allowed them to be exposed?
We’ve long known that the gods were capable of returning to Tyria, [some did momentarily](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Karei). We also are told that the gods are not in the Mists according to the foremost priestess of Grenth who is capable of summoning souls from the Underworld. so they must be beyond it, in another world.
But your two questions contradict each other. Elder Dragons are unable to influence the Mists on their own as shown by Jormag’s need to use havrouns to reach there (read: anywhere outside of Tyria), so if the gods left Tyria, they’re outside of the Elder Dragons’ reach.
Primordus, above all, do not utilize outside sources. Ergo, it is the most impossible for Primordus to have taken a god’s power.
Yes, I’m aware of its possible forms, but the way it is stated, and the way you would expect Balthazar to describe his strife with his half-brother, would it not be more plausible to have him describe that power struggle as ‘he’… I mean, how often do you run around saying ‘they’ when it’s really one adversary + his minions/army.
When faced with Scarlet and her army, would you not have described it as going to war on her, rather than use the term ‘they’. The Shadow Army, in similar respect, is nothing without its commander, Menzies, which is why I feel Balthazar should have been referring to his opponent as ‘him’, if it was really him.
I guess I’m placing too much emphasis on some choice of words if other things point to Balthazar’s old adversary; and maybe even “dimmed my light” could be a direct, blatant clue to namely the shadow army right there?
ArenaNet is clearly wanting there to be mystery, which there would be none if Balthazar simply said “he” even if the context of what Balthazar knows would make it more clear for Balthazar to use “he” or even “she” instead of “they”. Balthazar could also be referring to the alliance Menzies was a part of, rather than just Menzies himself – which at this point to our knowledge is “just” Menzies and Dhuum now (unless there’s a new leader of the torment demons to replace the Dreadspawn Maw).
Though, possible unaware what might be the use of her mirror, Lyssa seems to be involved to some extent, either having given some consent to or been lied to by Balthazar, because as a human mesmer you learn from interacting with the broken mirror that. However, I somehow doubt how Lyssa would fall for a lie.. maybe another God, but not her
I agree that Lyssa seems somehow involved, but she undoubtably is not sharing Balthazar’s mentality of “Tyria is of no concern”.
You can always beat brute force with trickery. That’s effectively what we did – by exposing the type of magic to its fatal flaw. The metaphorical Achilles’ Heel of all illusions, if you will.
Plus, made by a god or not, it was a mere object, and just because the maker was powerful doesn’t mean the object should be as powerful as the maker.
Well that would fit into my old “lazarus is actually Bauer” theory (which I felt had good backing, alas), but I cannot see Balthazar as keeping a journal which would allow people to realize he was lying to Caudecus (as well as Xera) before his plans came to be. Especially if he at all paid attention to Caudecus’ cunning.
Furthermore, during the AMA (iirc it was then – if not during the Guild Chat?) Anet devs said that Balthazar wasn’t expecting Caudecus to schism the White Mantle but rather for Caudecus to fall in line beneath his “god”. If he were Bauer and exchanging those notes, he’d know then that Caudecus was far from devout and was very much power hungry – perhaps enough to fight a singular mursaat claiming godhood. It’d be very shoddy writing for Balthazar to have gotten to know Caudecus well enough, but still be surprised by his actions (shoddy writing on Balthazar’s part as he’d be handling the idiot ball – it’s about as bad as the Captain’s Council going “Scarlet attacked us once, so she won’t attack us again!”).
This might be just my fantasy but id like to share.
When mursaat past through to the mists, Menzies has seen an oppurtunity and made a deal with mursaat on beating balthazar.
But mursaat being mursaat they backstab menzies while they are about to win against balthazar and take both of their powers.
Balthazar gets throwed in prison of mursaat like lazarus the dire who must have became friends over the years?(who knows right?)
Then something happens and in the end balthazar fights his way out?
Balthazar, the guy who has lost his brother, friend and powers to mursaat, then goes to the tyria acting as lazarus-his friend.So where is the intervention of other gods? Where is lyssa with her mirror?
Other gods might not like a guy with anger issues but lyssa being a bit two sided helps balthazar to atleast live as a normal mortal or to trick everyone?
Might be that after mursaat took menzies’s and balthazar’s powers,other gods might have to fight against mursaat and not being able to help any other than themselves.Balthazar lost his ultimate opposite, his brother.
Thats why he doesnt feel like war is important anymore.
Because a war needs two sides.(Shoot me(i dont know how realistic this all is))
Given current lore, the mursaat would have traversed the Mists in 3,000 BE at the latest. However, the oldest record of the Six Gods is about 1,500 years later (Forgotten arrived in 1,769 BE from the Mists; likely as servants of the Six then too).
Not to say the gods could’t be that much older, however I’d argue Balthazar and Menzies are not given the state of Balthazar’s father during his arrival on Tyria – being a non-decaying (by all indication) severed head. Depending on whether Balthazar and/or Menzies began demigod like Grenth and/or which parent between the two were shared, this could indicate that Balthazar wasn’t very old at this point.
There are a lot of variables, but if we follow the notion presented that Balthazar was not born a god but rose to godhood (this notion presented by the fact that a singular god’s power when released destroys the current world and nearby ones, indicating that if Balthazar was born a god rather than demigod he’d have to have two dead god parents or one of those two divine parents never once playing any significant role in Tyria and Tyrian records never mention them and it was Balthazar’s father’s death that created the supposed calamity the Six and humans escaped, ultimately unlikely IMO) then either his father or his mother would have been the god and the other mortal. If the father was mortal, then Balthazar could have been no more than 60 at the time (though he looks more 30s/40s now, imo, but who knows maybe gods can ‘choose their age’ though that would make Grenth appearing as an old man to be fairly odd given his Orrian statues’ youthful appearance); on the other hand if his father was the god then we cannot really say what his age is.
Thus it’s kind of a 50/50 for Menzies and Balthazar to both be 1,500+ years old by the time they arrived on Tyria. It seems both from Balthazar’s persona and what little we know of his family that, until Grenth, he was the youngest god (though maybe Lyssa is younger, given her origins are explicitly in-universe “unknown”).
More importantly to your theory though, it would be impossible for the mursaat to overthrow Balthazar or for Balthazar and Lazarus to become friends because Balthazar’s decline in power occurs post-GW1, and the mursaat were wiped out all down to Lazarus, who was split between the aspects, by that point.
Lastly, Balthazar is not uninterested in war. He just sees no honor in war anymore, compared to his constant teachings in GW1. There’s a very stark difference. Given the line right after his line about no honor in war, he talks about “the glory of battle” so it seems he still loves fighting as much as before, he just no longer see it as being something of honor to fight in.
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It doesn’t seem a good spot to stop willingly, especially if he knew a magically adept foe was present, as you suggest.
Actually what I was suggesting was that he was in that position then Balthazar showed up.
All the same, the fact that Balthazar had to spend some time in the very same chamber as Primordus and move through a horde of magic-consuming destroyers, without any sort of hindrance is very suspect. Even if you argue Primordus was distracted or not in that position until after Balthazar had set up, there’s still the matter of the hundred+ destroyers there, which given they were between barriers does imply that they were there before Balthazar was setting up.
On Elder Dragons sensing magic- what we saw was Mordremoth’s energy dispersing along the ley-lines. To extend the river analogy from the other thread: if you notice the stream next to your house suddenly flood, and follow it back to a broken dam, that doesn’t mean you’re able to see the broken dam from your house.
By this analogy, Primordus should have moved to Dragon’s Stand, not the Ring of Fire. Furthermore, his original placement shouldn’t have placed him near a flooding ley line from what little we know of ley lines, and even if it did, it would have – again – led to Dragon’s Stand (most likely through Rata Sum and The Grove), not to Ring of Fire in a path closer to Malchor’s Leap than the Tarnished Coast.
Being able to find a small signature, even several miles away, doesn’t mean you can find a massive signature on the other side of the continent, not without assuming several things about how that sense works that we’re just not in a position to know. I’m not saying it’s impossible, in fact I believe it’s probable, but it’s not a solid enough case for me to be comfortable using it to rule out avenues of other theories.
Regardless of “how”, he still sensed that magic was pooling up at the Ring of Fire specifically, and went straight there. No detours to the Heart of Maguuma where that proverbial dam broke.
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Read the letters in that instance, and you’d see that Caudecus was under this impression because of Justiciar Bauer’s letters. However, Bauer’s journal shows himself to be a true believer of the Unseen Ones, unlike his letters to Caudecus, indicating that he lied to Caudecus (we never did confirm if that artifact was genuine, one more plot point overlooked). He even remarks having personally met “Lazarus” – oddly, before the raid on the Stronghold of the Faithful thus before the ritual to revive Lazarus.
If that’s not an error in chronology, then Bauer had been following Balthazar from the beginning, lied to both Xera and Caudecus, and seeded his journal with praises of the Unseen Ones for curious onlookers while being a “heathen” and traitor to the White Mantle from the get go.
And since the liar Bauer is the source of the claim that Lazarus could not be resurrected without all aspects, there’s reason to suspect that claim isn’t true. Especially since we’ve seen it happen in the past.
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It should be noted that we don’t know how old King Doric was when he died in 1 BE/Year 0. Just that he was alive in 115 BE as well. Given he was not a kid, that would put him at least 130 years old roughly, but perhaps more likely to be 135-140.
All royalty, however, seems to have longer lives. We were told that asura live 5-10% longer than humans and “exceptional” lifespans for asura being 120. That would place exceptional lifespans for humans to be about 110. Average lifespans being 80s (going to Aaron’s numbers) fall in line with this.
Also we were the ones who put Canach in jail (after he ruined crab island and tried to kill us, mind you). Everyone, even the writers, kind of forgot that part.
It wasn’t forgotten, ArenaNet just had a kneejerk reaction to player reaction of how the PC treated Canach in Season 2.
In Season 2, the PC threatened Canach’s life at every turn, which granted was overkill, and people didn’t like that – they didn’t mind hostility, but they hated how the PC showed no restraint in the threats when Canach hasn’t done anything wrong since his imprisonment (and even helped out at Battle for Lion’s Arch, it should be added – he didn’t try to run and he fought a handful of Scarlet’s goons when they evacuated the city, and complyingly went back into a cell).
Then in HoT, we treated him like best buds from the get go. It’s pretty clear that the drastic change was a kneejerk reaction to change the tempo, when it should have been progressional during HoT.
But the treatment of Canach in Season 3 seems fairly sound – Canach’s actions in HoT were above and beyond what would be called for, and his actions in the S1 finale (as minor as they were) and in S2 only added to it.
Ree and Jeff weren’t particularly good at their job.
Stacie Magelssen
Brian Campbell
Sean Ferguson
Cory Herndon
Caitlin Kittredge
Will McDermott
Bobby SteinThey were the veterans behind the stories in Guild Wars Prophecies. Guild Wars 2 has yet to top even the most mediocre of stories in Guild Wars 1.
Pre-searing Ascalon, Crossing the shiverpeaks with Rurik, Discovering Kryta, meeting Glint and the seer, etc. Guild Wars 2 feels hollow in comparison.
Truth be told, Prophecies wasn’t a masterwork either, and ironically Prophecies appeared the way it did because – from what I heard from John Stumme – there was a disagreement on where the plot should go between the two main writers who were doing the overarching plot direction at the time. Which is why we got that split between focusing on the mursaat and focusing on the undead. It’s ironic because that disagreement seemed to have made it as good as it was, and just one or the other probably would have made it sub-par. (Edit: Just noticed drax commented on that very thing too, hah.)
The highlight of Guild Wars, imo, was Nightfall, which was the first piece that Jeff Grubb and Ree Soesbee worked on. They’re the ones who were the main writers for Joko and Abaddon, who are considered the best villains (or characters in general) of the franchise.
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I just finished watching the 3-hour movie
That explains this thread. Every summary out there is a far superior delivery of the story than Season 1 was.
It was hogwash among hogwashes, only coming together in the final four releases. Those were the best of it and it tied the rest in. The entire year (14 months to be precise, from The Lost Shores to The Nightmare is Over content) was a mishappen mess of poor delivery, bug-ridden gameplay, and mystery stacked atop of mystery without answer. The answers all came at once (what answers that did come at least) and at the end.
I do agree that Season 1 needs to be made part of the story journal – the main reason they haven’t is because the format they used then is simply incompatible with the format now and to make it part of the story journal like all other storylines they’d have to rebuild it from scratch. Which is apparently more work than worth in their opinion as they would rather tell the “cool” stories that are things like Lazarus being Balthazar (which, imo, is almost as kittencarlet Sue’s origin was).
But to say it was the best? Far from it. It was the worst; from a narrative and story delivery viewpoint, it has been the lowest part of all ArenaNet releases. In terms of gameplay, it ranged from bad to awesome (with, it must be said, skewed towards the awesome side). Its writing and voice acting was worse than Season 2 – when that came out I remember being “omg this is so much better!” but going back now I cringe at every third line delivered. Season 3 is definitely the highlight in terms of delivery, even if… things… would be better off not having been done and certain characters being done wholly differently (not just Laz/Balth but Kas/Jory and, especially, Braham).
Furthermore, the fast pace combined with temporary nature made it a stressful “must complete it all!” game rather than the relaxed form that Guild Wars had been from Prophecies, making it hard to be able to accurately critique the chapters because you were too busy trying to do the content then poof it was gone.
If the destroyers attacked us on sight (which is the norm for dragon minions), they would have attacked Balthazar on sight as well unless he had somehow remained invisible to them.
Furthermore, we’re talking about a powerful source of magic being right in front of a being who is after consuming as much magic as possible. For what possible reason would Primordus not attack Balthazar and try to eat his magic?
The only answer I can think of is either he was somehow distracted that he didn’t see Balthazar, which seems unlikely given the dragon minions’ hive mind situation we know exists for destroyers per GW1, or he simply could not attack or eat Balthazar’s magic (thus was “unappetizing” and resulted in a “meh, I don’t care” reaction).
Even though Balthazar is weakened from his normal state, he had an entire bloodstone that was charged by both Zhaitan’s and Mordremoth’s death. If destroyers swarm over small pockets of overflowing ley line energy, they’d swarm over Balthazar’s magic. And I doubt Primordus needs to literally see to sense the magic, given he sensed the build up of magic in the Ring of Fire from beneath Frostforge Sound.
And for the idea that Balthazar sat and waited for Primordus to surface, that would run contradictory to what the druids say about Primordus which is that he arrived at the island first, and had remained there; this was definitely where Primordus had made camp after showing up in the Ring of Fire (though given his size, he’s practically in Orr as well as in the Ring of Fire, somehow not collapsing Tyria as he moved ten steps southwest).
I would definitely agree that if magic pools anywhere, it’d end up being a very dangerous local. Even before Rising Flames, we got the indication that a lot of magic can cause issues (Thaumanova and even the volcanic eruption at the end of Prophecies, likely caused from the, to quote Eve, “power released at the moment the Lich died” which she describes as “incredible. Such a force. It was amazing.”).
But, incidentally, I think that when Elder Dragons wake and begin absorbing magic, if they’re not going to pools of magic, then they’re reversing the flow to drain those “magic pools” from a distance. An ebb and flow of magical currents, if you will, where each last hundreds or thousands of years.
I somehow doubt that they would have made such drastic story narrative difference based on the name chosen. That is a fairly poor means of determining which plot to go with.
Late response, but…
Even if they didn’t leave because of the dragons, we know that the Dragons feed on magic. What if they found a way to tap into Balthy’s realm and steal his magic?
That’s one theory.
All evidence has shown that the only Elder Dragon interested in the Mists is Jormag, and even he needed to hijack the Spirit of the Wild’s power (via havroun) in order to begin sending minions to the Mists. Zhaitan was capable of pulling a soul from the Mists – but so can necromancers like Priestess Rhie – so it’s likely he was able to do so via the powers from the Orrian priests of Grenth.
Yes, they left a long time before the Elder Dragons even began to stir (again), but as we’ve also had confirmed, “the human gods still exist, and their power is still felt within Tyria.”
As in they left behind some artifacts. This old line, if I recall, is in reference to the statues of Orr and nothing else. There is nothing to make this “power felt in Tyria” to be a direct connection to the gods’ power that allows one to siphon and even drain the gods.
Balthazar’s choice of words indicate his oppressors are plural; and I doubt he’d talk about Menzies and the Shadow Army as ‘they’ but rather ‘he’…
“They” is often used to refer to a singular, gender neutral or unknown, individual. It is considered more polite than saying “it” in such a case where the speaker doesn’t want to use “he” or “she”.
This is far from uncommon.
Besides, the Shadow Army is a they.
We have no indication whether the other 5 are similarly weakened, and whether Balthazar acts alone or as part of their plan. He even says Tyria is of no concern to him; he doesn’t care if it blows up due to the death of the Elder Dragon because at least he will have his power and can “move on” to wherever the Human Gods would go?
Firstly, he never says he will have his power, just power in general. The same way he took power from the bloodstone which was not him, he took power from Primordus and Jormag.
His lack of caring about Tyria is rather proof that the other gods are not working with him, I’d say, given that Lyssa, Dwayna, and Melandru (and very likely Kormir and possibly Grenth) would all very much care about Tyria and its inhabitants – far more than the potentially xenophobe Balthazar.
And the lack of indication of the other five being weakened is more reason to believe that they haven’t been weakened rather than they have been. Unlike Balthazar and Grenth, the other five gods do not have enemies known to us, so there’s no reason to believe aside from “somehow the Elder Dragons drained the magic of beings who are in another plane of existence, despite showing the complete incapability of altering even parts of Tyria distant from themselves and their minions”.
Besides all of the above, there is one VERY important fact:
Balthazar shows, through his off-screen actions, that he is immune to being eaten by the Elder Dragons, or at the very least Primordus and his minions.
As he had spent time creating barriers in a mass of destroyers and in front of Primordus itself before turning on Taimi’s Machine. During this time of being in front of Primordus and his horde of destroyers which we know consume magic too the Pact Commander was going all across Draconis Mons searching for M.O.X., the elder druids, and destroying the first two barriers before Balthazar had activated the machine. Even if you argue that the third barrier wasn’t made until just before the second was destroyed, that is still time a weakened god had spent in front of an Elder Dragon before activating the machine. Enough time to be physically and metaphysically nomed on.
The fact that he survived more than five minutes while in a weakened state in front of Primordus itself before activating the machine – saying nothing to the horde of magic-devouring destroyers before Primordus – is proof enough that Balthazar has some defenses to having his magic devoured by Primordus, if not outright immunity.
It took Lord Odran countless sacrifices to open a portal to the Mists that mortals can pass through. He is the singular being who had done such without some divine aid – be it in the form of a god, avatar, or a Spirit of the Wild.
Even ignoring the Orrian History Scrolls – the sole source of the gods’ state of being when entering Tyria – telling us that at least three of the pantheon we know were gods (Dwayna, Balthazar, Melandru – Abaddon, while not explicitly said, is heavily implied to have been from The Mists as a god too from the Orrian History Scrolls), this still puts them far above what mere mortals can do.
Add on to the fact that the human homeworld is said to have been devoid of magic, this would make travel through the Mists impossible without the aid of some divine being. The Six Gods being gods at the time of arriving on the world already is not only supported by all lore we have, but is the Occam’s Razor answer to how they arrived on the world given all lore.
Most importantly, perhaps, is how all magic directly and many magic indirectly tied to the Six Gods have shown itselve impervious to dragon consumption and corruption. Most notably:
And yes, Balthazar as a fallen god has shown, through his off-screen actions, to be impervious to dragon consumption. As he had spent time creating barriers in a mass of destroyers and in front of Primordus itself before turning on Taimi’s Machine. During this time of being in front of Primordus and his horde of destroyers which we know consume magic too the Pact Commander was going all across Draconis Mons searching for M.O.X., the elder druids, and destroying the first two barriers before Balthazar had activated the machine. Even if you argue that the third barrier wasn’t made until just before the second was destroyed, that is still time a weakened god had spent in front of an Elder Dragon before activating the machine. Enough time to be physically and metaphysically nomed on.
Dwayna at least was capable of interbreeding with humans; it’s canon now that Grenth is her son by the sculptor Malchor.
Technically, Grenth’s father has never been named. He’s only been referred to as “a sculptor”. It does seem like all signs point to Malchor, though.
It’s “a mortal sculptor”. Though “mortal” doesn’t necessarily equate “human”.
And the real aspect- the 5th aspect is on our hands, so it can’t be even possible to resurrect Lazarus now.
Not necessarily.
Lazarus showed up before Justiciar Naveed to personally collect his final aspect during GW1. This means that Lazarus can exist without all aspects joined together. This isn’t a case of Exodia from Yu-Gi-Oh where if you don’t have all cards you just simply cannot summon Exodia at all. This is closer to Lord Voldemort from Harry Potter, who though split himself into eight pieces, was able to exist individually as each one.
Well ley lines do seem to have a source: the Elder Dragons while they sleep.
Then why the whole “raised this haven at the edge of Mordremoth’s jungle”? They knew exactly where they were building Tarir. They knew that Mordremoth would wake eventually, and they had to have had an approximate timeline given that Tarir was built around Primordus’ and the DSD’s awakening, after Primordus had already tried to wake up once. So they knew Mordremoth would be waking within 200 to 250 years from that point in time.
They might have been off from a few years, but it seems they had every intention of being within reach of Mordremoth with the egg. It’s even heavily implied the egg only hatched so soon because of Mordremoth’s death, due to the magical influx.
If Mordremoth waking up and being killed had no relation to Glint’s plan, then why would they build Tarir so close to Mordremoth? Why build it so close to any Elder Dragon for that matter, if they are nothing but an obstacle? Why not build Tarir in Dzalana, or the Woodland Cascades? Why not in Cantha, to be safeguarded by Kuunavang (presuming that Glint and Kuunavang would be allies)? Or even in the Battle Isles (the Zaishen likely wouldn’t oppose building a safeguard against six world ending monstrocities)?
The very location implies that Glint had known of Mordremoth’s waking and death, since we know she knew of Mordremoth’s location.
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Being “totally unpredictable” is being chaotic. If you’re just wrecking havoc all the time, that’s not being chaotic but destructive. Being chaotic means either having randomized/unpredictable patterns and behaviors.
I wouldn’t be so sure. “A Study in Gold”: has the statement “We raised this haven at the edge of Mordremoth’s jungle, but no Elder Dragon can touch us here. Our magic shields the city from them.”
This implies they expected Mordremoth to rise while Tarir is inhabited, Further, thanks to Scarlet Mordremoth actually woke up “on time” rather than “early” if one considers Jormag and Zhaitan having woken up on time as well. Add into the fact that the Zephyrites only began heading to Tarir after Mordremoth woke up rather than, say, when Kralkatorrik woke, and it seems reasonable to believe they wanted to put the egg right in front of Mordremoth for whatever reason.
That said, her plans and all foreseen knowledge were definitely based on the Elder Dragons and not the gods’ involvement. There’s no reason to believe that she knew of Balthazar – she isn’t all knowing after all.
For their tragedy: Shiro Tagachi, Saul D’Alessio, Miku, Noran
For their personality: Killeen, Carys, Dougal Keane, Canach
For their development: Zei Ri, Carys, Canach (yes, I like them for multiple reasons), Zho
And because: Razah, Nola Sheppard
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There is this statement, though and I would find it odd for a priest of Lyssa to contemplate the stillness of water if Lyssa is a primarily chaotic or whimsical goddess.
Further, water is often used in reference to mirrors for Lyssa – that is her tie as the now “goddess of water” after all – but this is only possible for calm, predictable, and stable waters. While mirrors may hold a strong mesmer link, it feels odd to relate stable water to chaotic god all the same, just for the sake of a reflection.
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It seems pretty clear what the ley lines are. From the very beginning to even now they are solely presented as the flow of magic, like water or wind currents but for magic. The “paths of least resistance” for magic to move through.
This of course means that ley lines change both in size and placement with the ebb and flow of magic in the world and the shifting of landmasses, but that’s what they’ve always been presented to be. And there has never been any suggestion otherwise.
What’s unclear is merely the exact makeup or composition of ley lines, and why there’s minor visual differences (some are prismatic, some are blue/green, some are yellow/golden). Though Taimi had presented them to basically be “all Tyrian magic merged together”.
@Drax: Just because the Elder Dragons didn’t always exist doesn’t necessarily mean there weren’t entities or objects which could have housed magic before them. I’m thinking of either entire races of dragons we have hinted as existing in mass in the past, or objects like krait obelisks and bloodstones – these hold magic, thus would act as a separate container for magic but while we do not know what they’re made of, the materials that make them had to come from somewhere.
There is also a the possibility that entities that arrived on the world after its creation came from elsewhere and introduced magic – not too dissimilar to the Six Gods (if not the Six Gods themselves) – and that prior to this moment “all Tyrian magic” could exist in the world without it metaphorically (possibly literally) exploding from overload. Beings such as Koda and the Spirits of the Wild, or Zintl and Ameyalli, or the Great Dwarf (had it actually been an actual god in the past), or Mellaggan (if she isn’t Melandru). As opposed to magic naturally entering the world from The Mists at a regular rate.
@Amaimon.7823: Very true, it is possible to artificially introduce or take out magic from the system, but that wouldn’t mean the system isn’t closed. If you were to take water and ship into outer space (say on a rocket to Mars), that doesn’t make the water cycle of earth an open system where water can be added or subtracted without artificial interference.
The water cycle is a pretty good analogy for how magic seems to work in Tyria given all indication. It’s always present but can differ between being in Elder Dragons (water in clouds), mortal use / artifacts (rivers and streams), or the ley lines, etc. (oceans and rain).
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“Some say” leaves it to a lot of interpretation and could easily just be certain individuals saying “yeah, she’s chaotic”. The rest doesn’t really sound chaotic at all. Curiously, though the Nightfall manual focused on Elonian depictions (just as the Factions focused on Canthan depictions), we didn’t really see that come up in-game even in the heavily Lyssa-influenced Vabbi.
@Natto:
Talented spellcasters and would-be heroes coming from peasantry is a pretty common trope actually, and we have a number of such individuals in GW1 with such a background like Gwen, Shiro Tagachi, and even Adelbern grew up as a peasant. Nothing really ties royalty to powerful magic, so I’m not sure where you really get that it would make more sense for a queen to be a powerful spellcaster than a peasant.
As for “mortals who push their magic beyond reason get hurt” – change it to “push beyond their limit” and you’re correct. But the limit is much higher than you seem to take it for. With the exception of Koro going blind for a week after her illusion the size of Eye of the North, all cases of extremely powerful spellcasting situations were combat inflicted wounds, not backlashes from the spellcasting. And even then, there are many cases where such mortals do not get hurt – a good example being Nola Sheppard, who raised an massive undead army in a fit of rage, which is unheard of for a non-lich; her only injury was from Kieran knocking her out. Her sole injury was what Kieran inflicted on her.
@Squee: As far as I know, nothing ever calls Lyssa chaotic or unpredictable. If anything, she’s among the most stable of the gods.
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Whoever said magic comes from anywhere? All indication from everything ever since we learned that Elder Dragons both eat and release magic has been that there is a set number of magic, no increase or decrease in it, it merely changes location from “in Tyria” to “in dragons”.
Magic in the ley lines come from the dragons. Magic in the dragons come from the ley lines. Unless I’ve missed something (if so, please provide source), it’s cyclic, with no intake or outtake.
Do the Caladbolg achievement chain after completing Heart of Thorns.
In [the third instance,](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Sword_Regrown) you return to the Artesian Waters and there a vigil will tell you that the cleansing and killing risen is still ongoing, being very very slow. To quote:
With Zhaitan dead, we’ve made good progress clearing the rest of his army. It’s still a waterlogged wreck though. I wouldn’t invest in property here anytime soon if I were you, sir.
In other words: Trahearne’s ritual wasn’t an instantaneous purification of corruption and eradication of risen, even after 5 years the progress is slow but sure.
So even if they added a fourth post-PS map based in current timeline, there’d be a ton of risen and a ton of corruption present.
For Queen Jenna being one of the Lyssa twins, or both taking turns being her, again it’s not out of the realm of possibilities. With how Lyssa is naturally, disguising herself as a mortal to help humanity can be cannon, and the real Queen Jenna could be in on the whole idea. Her extraordinary powers could be supplemented directly from Lyssa’s blessing, by bloodstone/keystone, or Lyssa might even step in at the right moments to cast powerful spells to protect the people.
The bold is honestly more reason for Jennah to not be Lyssa. Yes, Lyssa preferred living among mortals rather than above them… but those are the important, key words: rather than above them.
Pretending to be a monarch is every bit “above them”, even if not as much as a god would be.
When Lyssa pretended to be mortal, she was a commoner, or lower than that. If Lyssa were pretending to be human, it’d be more likely for her to be Anise or Livia (if not both if that one theory is right) than to be Jennah. It’d make far more sense for Lyssa to be Kasmeer than either Jennah or Anise had it not been for her actions in Taimi’s Pet Project.
And Jennah’s extraordinary powers have a multitude of explanations. Least of all the fact that major magical capabilities is not unique – even ignoring Xera who does far, far more in the raid than Jennah does in both novels and episode 4 combined, we have individuals like Sorcerer Lord Kree, Sybetha, Kitah, Lord Odran, Palawa Joko, Zoldark the Unholy, Livia, Magi Malaquire, Nola Sheppard, and Koro Sagewind who do presumably impossible (if not just simply improbable) feats before magic was so much more common in the open world.
You say making an illusion of an Elder Dragon, or a siege-repelling bubble around a city is an impossible feat for a mortal? To cite two powerful mesmers: Koro Sagewind and Kitah both (on clearly separate occasions) created a massive illusionary army. They died shortly after, mind, but mostly due to wounds from battle than creating the illusions. On a different occasion, Koro had created an illusion the size of the Eye of the North (which is about the size of the queen’s palace) without preparation and only went temporarily blinded.
All of that was before magic became as present as it is in the world.
Jennah’s feat are extraordinary, yes, but they are not outside the realm of non-amplified mortals.
For the bloodstones being the magic battery that fills the world with magic, that would bring up more questions about the human gods and the Elder Dragons. If the dragons have been around for eons longer than the Six, what was their purpose? The Six gave magic to the world later on. If they didn’t come to Tyria, the Elder Dragons would have nothing to consume.
The bloodstone was filled with magic from the world. The Six did not give any magic, they merely unlocked it.
Something drax forgot to mention was how the Elder Dragons also leak magic – so not only was there magic from the bloodstone draining into the world after the gods’ tampering, but there was magic from the Elder Dragons going back into the world too.
Besides that, the bloodstone was created from the “scraps” of magic left near the end of the previous dragon cycle, so there was more magic in the Elder Dragons than in the bloodstones.
The Elder Dragons would have woken up eventually with or without the gods. They likely would have merely slept longer, or not have as much magic to munch on, had it not been for the gods.
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We had contact with his servants, but not Balthazar himself.
People keep saying that as if it’s an irrefutable fact, as if we’ve never had individuals directly confront the five gods since the Exodus. This simply isn’t true. Both Dwayna and Grenth had shown themselves, directly, to mortals – and Grenth during GW1’s time period. We’re even told that Lyssa had communicated directly with a mortal.
Is there any reason to believe that Balthazar had not done similar? IIRC, some of the Zaishen do mention having seen visions of/from Balthazar.
We players only ever met the avatars. But that wouldn’t stop others from meeting the gods post-Exodus.
If he became a conniving, uncaring deity that far back, there’s no reason to believe that he’d have brought his followers up to speed.
So his personal avatars wouldn’t know the state of their god as they fight for him teeth and nail against his treacherous half-brother, their alliance being in part due to honor versus treachery?
All the while, other gods are directly communicating with mortals and their vessels without bringing up some change in Balthazar’s personality?
That feels as hard to swallow as Jennah being Lyssa.
If the dagger was used to kill a prisoner, that puts Balthazar there before the riot and following massacre.
Not necessarily. We don’t have a specific timeline for each prisoner’s death and we know some were kept alive (as we fight them). Heck, Balthazar’s presence could have started the riot – I don’t think we get an exact reason for the riot beginning.
Do we have exact text of him hating Deception? Honor is not the same as Honesty. Honor means Pride so if there are text of him ever having Honor he wouldn’t back down from a challenge.
I’m also wanting the samples of text referring to him having honor aside from the player’s words to him while fighting him(didn’t see any ingame text from GW1 despite checking both the Fissure of Woe quests’ text, the story of Kaolai, the Priest of Balthazar’s words + the Champion of Balthazar’s words & skills and haven’t been able to access the manuals). It’s quite vital.
You can pretty much read any of the Zaishen or Fissure of Woe NPC dialogues to get either. They may not mention Balthazar directly, but they all talk about honorable combat and the like, while also talking about following “Balthazar’s teachings”. There’s also dialogue such as Alsacien talking about honorable combat in Balthazar’s name, etc.
You said you looked into the Fissure of Woe’s quests’ text but apparently missed things such as Khobay and the Wailing Lord’s betrayals and how Balthazar’s followers – who reflect Balthazar’s teachings – handled both (speaking of justice for Khobay, and “lessons” for the Wailing Lord’s broken neutrality). Grenth isn’t the only god attributed to justice – Balthazar is as well, just less so.
Balthazar even have the titles such as “Scourge of the Prideful”.
Hell, Balthazar’s own words: I’ve learned there is no honor in war.
I have learned, meaning once he did believe in honor in war.
This isn’t to say Balthazar is a perfectly good god, but he had certainly was not as he is now.
I don’t recall a single time after the Exodus where godly Balthazar–or any other human god for that matter (Abaddon and Kormir excluded)–directly interacted with mortals like he recently did in GW2, at least that we know of.
Dwayna appeared before Karei about 300 years after the Exodus. Grenth appeared before Olias between Prophecies and Nightfall. I want to say there was a case of Balthazar and Lyssa appearing before mortals post-Exodus too, but cannot recall where I saw such.
To conclude on this, not every human has the same perception of Balthazar. Similarly to how greeks regarded Ares, tyrians regard Balthazar from two perspectives: on one hand he embodies the physical valor and strength necessary for success in war, on the other he was overwhelming, insatiable in battle, destructive, and man-slaughtering.
I’ve not seen a single human source considering him the latter. The closest I’ve ever seen is the High Priest Zhang adding “Paragon of Bloodshed” and “Bringer of War” among his many (much more bright) titles like “He That Shows Us the Final Truth,” “Revealer of Strength”, and “Finder of Wisdom.” But those two titles are less “insatiable, man-slaughtering battle” and more neutral, like Balthazar himself had shown given scrolls and scriptures.
The major problem with your suppositions, Sock, is that during GW1 people had contact with Balthazar still and he was still treated as hating deception and preferring honorable combat and the “glory of war”. Whatever led him to realize “there is no honor in war” and become a conniving, uncaring god had happened after GW1. So during the creation of the White Mantle etc, Balthazar would have been opposed to such deception that you suggest he had pulled.
Flashpoint wasn’t a “revelation of Balthazar’s true nature” but rather a “show of Balthazar’s character development”.
Well the artist you just posted solely from had left ArenaNet just after GW2 launched, so on that portion no. As to making the videos, they did once – but stopped when GW2 released. Presumably trying to keep up with the Living World updates (and now while also working on expansion, fractals, raids, PvP, and WvW – even if the latter two get the least focus) takes up the majority if not all of their time.
You’ve got one major issue with your theory:
Magic isn’t “replenished” at all, however. The Elder Dragons do not absorb magic while they sleep, they release magic while they sleep (or are dead), and take it in while they’re awake. The magic in Tyria itself changes, but the magic in Tyria + the Elder Dragons is stabilized. The only changes are, ultimately, location and form (corruptive versus not corruptive; in Elder Dragons versus in the world).
The Six Gods are not even native to Tyria, unlike the Elder Dragons, and only arrived for the very first time in the past couple thousand years. The Elder Dragons had already gone through at least two risings before then if we presume the Six Gods arrived during the last dragonrise (three if they came after). The jotun have records of “multiple rises” prior to the last one, which puts them with four+ rises in total, including the current one. Depending on whether you trust the Priory, or follow the history of Glint/Forgotten, that would mean the Elder Dragons are at least either 30,000 (10,000 year cycles) or at the very least 11,000 years old (3,000 year cycles – there is a third plausible cycle rate of 8,000 with latest one being only 3,000 thanks to Bloodstone creation and later manipulation).
In either case, the Elder Dragons are at least 10,000 years older on Tyria than the Six Gods.
And it’s yin yang not ying yang.
The reason why “too much magic” is a thing, aside from the Elder Dragon’s connection to The All (note: Priory and jotun say that the Elder Dragons are not those spheres but connected to them), is that six Elder Dragons’ worth of magic is simply too much burden for the world to bear (in fact, according to Taimi, three Elder Dragons’ worth of magic is too much to bear), not that the Elder Dragons are needed to get rid of an otherwise increasing amount of magic.
It should also be noted that until LS3, the only god to return to Tyria has been Dwayna – only Malchor fell in love with her at first sight and to such a degree. If any goddess would cause men to kill each other or themselves over her, it’d be Lyssa who is attributed as the goddess of love.
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All the same, that set’s dagger is completely different from the one seen on the workbench next to the letter (I provided a link).
The GW1 set were forged by the Zaishen in honor of Balthazar, and not made to represent Balthazar’s personal kitten nal.
Obligatory link to the dagger made by mercenaries
And I hadn’t known about that dagger in the raid (unsurprising since I haven’t had many chances to explore it). What’s most curious is that both daggers have the same appearance.
On an aside, the food platter isn’t really out of place since Saul’s recap of his imprisonment began with the mursaat offering things to get Saul’s cooperation, including (as shown in the art), lots of food.
It’d be interesting if the dagger does tie Balthazar to the Bastion of the Penitent; people already tie Deimos to Menzies, so perhaps that is where the connection furthers on?
That wouldn’t prevent him from being Balthazar’s father yet if that is the case that would make Balthazar a rogue champion like Glint.
I’d rather not have the picture of a dragon being the parent of a human-looking being.
As for accusations that Balthazar is honorable… In GW 1 his killing a guy who beat him in a game is treated as normal for him yet his induction of Kaolai into Tahnnakai Temple is treated as a rare thing.
Balthazar having any sportsmanship is treated as rare not common.
Yet if you talk to any priest of Balthazar, Zaishen member, etc. they will all preach about the honor of war as Balthazar’s teachings. Even Balthazar’s own words shows that he once did believe in the glory and honor of war but no longer does.
I agree and disagree. As I stated in my last message, human gods are capable of taking complete disrupted forms, as is evident in the case of Dhuum, Melandru and Grenth, but even more extremely so in the case of Abaddon.
Erm, how exactly are those three “disrupted forms”?
All four of them, in fact, are of humanoid appearance in their “true statues” – Abaddon has the ‘head and hands’ look because, based on gw.dat entries, his body was destroyed when he was defeated and he had to make a new one (which was incomplete by the time we reached him). While Dhuum does show to be just the upper half of a skeleton, he was also defeated and usurped (which by all other cases (read: Abaddon) means death so Dhuum could be an undead, by technicality, for all we know and that his “living, god” appearance was more humanoid). Grenth is always depicted as a human, but wearing a mask (and it is always specified as a mask). Melandru, like Dwayna, is depicted with wings, and other than that Melandru has made appearances through trees but her own being is not half-tree by all indication.
So other than Abaddon rebuilding a body, and a potentially undead fallen god, I’m not seeing any evidence of “disrupted forms”.
This is especially true for the “Rodgort is Balthazar’s father” given that Balthazar is far from having any draconic appearances. We saw his face and his body and it was 100% humanoid. More humanoid than Dwayna. Unless Rodgort changed his appearance after having Balthazar, or Balthazar is actively hiding draconian features, that doesn’t really hold.
Honestly, I think it’s more plausible that Rodgort was a “fire dragon” of legend in the same way that Glint was a “crystal dragon” (potentially excluding connections to Elder Dragons).
I won’t repeat answering the questions since Aaron got it all, more or less, but I’d like to add:
Inquest are not evil, they are simply amoral. From the perspective of their victims they are evil, but the main difference is their intent (much like Balthazar).
Kudu, as said was not their leader but simply the leader in their division that focused on Elder Dragon research. One may see Operative Belka as having taken over that field after (though I would be doubtful given her title of “operative”), but who – if anyone – took after after her is unclear. Furthermore, we do not know who the de facto leader of the Inquest is, or even if there is one singular leader (it could be a council for all we know).
As for the last question (“how important is their presence in certain areas”), honestly it feels like the Inquest are just a “go to villain” when ArenaNet needs someone to be a local hostile (which is rather disappointing and overused – can’t we get groups like Modus Sceleris being local villains?), but ultimately all of their research is geared toward the idea of understanding the Eternal Alchemy in some capacity (since all things are part of it). We’ve not really seen “trivial” Inquest labs either – most tend to be geared towards researching dragons, local anomalies (for lack of a better term), or setting up relations with groups that would help with gathering resources or easier access to places they want/need for their research.
On the contrary, if Primordus left the Underground Nexus, that means all (or the greater majority) of the dwarves are dead. Since primordus moved, I immediately accepted there couldn’t be more than like 10 dwarves left alive down there
While Edge of Destiny and various dialogue about Ogden in Season 2 do hint at the dwarves now being practically gone, I’d like to note that lore has said that Primordus had been moving about for the past 200 years, and I doubt even an army of stone dwarves could totally seal Primordus’ movements. The dwarves’ purpose was, primarily, not so much to stop Primordus but to stop Primordus’ minions from breaching the surface.
Which is part of why it took so long for destroyers to begin invading the surface (everywhere we see destroyers in GW2, their presence is “new” to the area)- they were fighting dwarves. The very appearance of more and more destroyers on the surface (so widespread because of Primordus’ movements over the past 200 years) indicate that the dwarves are either so spread out they couldn’t fully stop the destroyers, or have been reduced in numbers so much that they can no longer hold the destroyers back. Edge of Destiny descriptions implied the latter was the case.
Regarding the mercenaries’ “loyalties” – while two conversing charr do talk about how they think Balthazar hired them because they won’t get “weepy” over being abandoned, there is this letter found near Calamity (de facto leader of the (human?) mercenaries on Draconis Mons) which indicate that the mercenaries are certainly trying to curry Balthazar’s favor.
Also gives an interesting bit of easily overlooked lore – Balthazar apparently “lost” a dagger of his.
I have a new theory, what if Balthazar’s and Menzies’ father was Rodgort, the original flame.
Based on the components to make the legendary torch, Rodgort was a dragon of some sort. At the very least, Rodgort – if it were a real being – is depicted as a dragon, even in the skill icons of GW1.
If Rodgort has a tie to the Six Gods, then I would place it as a pet of Balthazar’s theoretical predecessor (as Temur and Tegan are to Balthazar).
What we know about the Six?
- we know that we don’t know their origin.
- we know that we don’t know if they created the world.
- we know that we don’t know if they created any world.
- we have no clue what the Mist represents for the Six. We know that they emerged from the Mist and returned into the Mist.Taking into account all what we know about the Six, we can conclude that the title of God was granted by the humans only based on their power (and knowledge).
Corrections:
- Players don’t know their origins, but only Lyssa is, in universe, stated to have unknown origins.
- We know that the current generation did not create Tyria.
- We know that the Six have the power to reshape worlds from inhabitable to habitable and vice versa, unlike any other being.
- We know that the Six have dominion over parts of the Mists, including the Rift. So while we do not know the full extent of the Six’s relations to the Mists, we know some extent of that relation. Which is far more than ‘no clue’.
And this isn’t everything, either. As was brought up in prior posts. As Ardid.7203 said, you’re working on a very specific interpretation of the word “god”.
And I want to reiterate what drax said: We have never fought a god at full power, despite your claims. Abaddon was at roughly 3/8ths of his power and we only defeated him with the blessings of the other five gods and with chains forged by Balthazar. Balthazar and Dhuum were fallen gods when fought and they were never killed; Dhuum was merely weakened to a point where seven demi-god-like beings could re-imprison him, and Balthazar was never actually fought directly.
So the claim that “we are as strong as the gods” or that “the gods are as weak as humans” is wholly false. A more accurate claim would be “a weakened god is as strong as a group of the strongest humans in the world.”
Here you have absolute right. The writers have said so. They have this right.
Is sad that ANet uses more and more often the argument “it is as it is because we want this”.
But the readers have the right to judge the quality of a writing.
You’re judging the “quality of a writing” by using a pre-defined and alien (to the universe) notion of what makes a god, a definition that not even all real world mythological divine beings can fit in at that, and saying that the definition does fit them.
This is the same as going into a story expecting it to be bad – you’re not going to enjoy it no matter what with such a notion in mind.
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Lastly, I have faith that Anet writers wouldn’t pull a deus ex machina on us. They wouldn’t let the story get too complicated to have to rely on that.
Do you know what a dues ex machina is? Because the reason for Balthazar’s weakening is not going to turn his appearance into a dues ex machina.
“Dues ex machina” refers to a storytelling device that means an unexplained, unforeshadowed plot device (individual or device or event) comes in and solves an old conflict to end a narrative.
Balthazar did not come out of nowhere (while him being Lazarus was without clues, it was not without prior establishment); he did not instantly solve a conflict (even though it ended in the same episode as his reveal, he had been around since episode 1; even then, it was the Pact Commander thwarting Balthazar that solved the old conflict); and most importantly, he did not end the narrative as he created a new conflict.
Balthazar’s appearance was shoddy writing – and that’s being kind – but it was a far cry from a dues ex machina. If you want a dues ex machina, the closest thing ArenaNet put in of such in GW2 is the sudden revelation of what Mordremoth’s weakness is. But even that isn’t a true dues ex machina, since we had been told that he had a weakness beforehand.
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I get the sense that Elder Dragons consume magic, like we breathe oxygen. They just absorb it from the world. Sure Zhaitan ate magic items, but I think that was more like a supplement to speed up his power levels. Like Goku and Vegeta eating those beans to gain his strength back.
It seems that with the Elder Dragons slowly waking up, they absorb more and more magic from the world. The Six probably had their magic slowly drained over time, as that is their connection to our world. Think of a water balloon that’s not tied tight. The water may drip out 1 drop at a time, but 200 years later, the water balloon is half the size.
While I would disagree with it being like we “breathe oxygen” (the Elder Dragons release it in sleep only as far as we’re aware, that would be like if we only breathed in while awake, and only exhaled while asleep), the key phase is your second sentence:
They just absorb it from the world.
The Six have not been on the world since they woke (began consuming magic), only while they were asleep (while they were exuding magic).
So by your following line of thought, the Six Gods would have been getting stronger and stronger prior to their leaving, not weaker.
Furthermore, there is nothing to even indicate your conclusion of “that is their connection to the world” if the “their” is referring to the Six Gods.
Balthazar himself said that he had his powers taken. He wanted it back, so he went after Jormag and Primordus to take theirs. Yes he never says directly who took his powers, but one can safely assume that it would take a strong enemy to do so. For this, I’m leaning towards the Elder Dragons and their natural ability to inhale magical energies.
Balthazar showed some very clear hatred to those who weakened him, but treated Primordus as nothing but a means to an end. Primordus was far from the goal. Yes, he wants his power back, or at the very least he wants revenge against those who took his power, but to get his revenge he needed new power and that’s the purpose the bloodstone and Primordus was serving (he got Jormag’s magic as an added bonus).
Another option could be Balthazar’s brother Menzies somehow took his powers, but I don’t think Anet would make the story that complicated.
Honestly, saying “the Elder Dragons took the Six Gods’ magic while they were in another world” or “the Elder Dragons absorbed the Six Gods’ magic while asleeping and otherwise exuding magic” is far more complicated than “Menzies finally won the centuries/millenias long war”.
Besides, as drax said, there are so many convoluted plots that ArenaNet has made that they stopped making sense or have yet to continue them. I mean, if you really look at it, they made a huge complicated argument for why sylvari were not dragon minions, and never un-complicated it or answered these complications when they revealed that they were, leaving a dozen contradictions.
Hell, the whole “Lazarus is actually not Lazarus” was needless complication. If they had no interest in complicated plots, they would have had Balthazar appear in a pillar of fire instead of Lazarus at the end of episode 1.
It could also explain why no one has seen or heard from them in hundreds of years.
You mean when ignoring the explanation we had gotten years ago for their ceasing of communication. We have an explanation, but everyone decides to ignore what we’ve been told and proclaim “there is no explanation!”
Combine with Elder Dragon lore, we know that the gods were weakened because the dragons consume magic.
How?
Lyssa physically left the world 1,120 years prior to any Elder Dragon woke up – all the gods did. How could the Elder Dragons, which cannot influence the Mists without stealing powers from individuals like the norn havrouns, weaken the gods?
In all the claims of “the Elder Dragons weakened the gods because they consume magic!” this obvious and directly stated fact is always ignored.
So, we don’t know the origins of the Six, but we know theirs origin are not related with the dragons :-)) We know or we don’t know?
We do not know their exact origins, but we know they’re not of Tyria.
Even our character can (temporarily) blind the opponents. A powerful mage can permanently do this. Even looking (for too long) in Sun can permanently blind you. This is not something defining a God
“looking at the sun for too long” is the exact comparison made for the gods. Their divinity makes looking at them comparable to looking at the sun. It isn’t “being blinded by looking at them does not make them a god” but the reverse: What makes them a god results in mortals being blinded by looking at them for too long.
This isn’t an active spell nor is it temporary but an innate aspect of their very existence.
Zhaitan raised the sunken realm of Orr, changing the world on a massive scale. When Kralkatorik retreated to the South he reshaped the world in this path. Not a deed exclusive to a God
Physically moving a large landmass or twisting what is directly in front of you (keeping them highly recognizable) is entirely different from what Abaddon did during Nightfall.
With just a quarter of his power (two out of eight seals that had totally bound all his power), he transformed landscapes into barely recognizable counterparts from another dimension is a very, very different thing.
- Ruling some afterlives.
Did I mention Zhaitan?
Zhaitan didn’t rule any afterlife. He was able to steal a handful of souls from the Underworld, but Zhaitan – like all Elder Dragons – are bound to Tyria. They have zero influence over the Mists and no domains of afterlife.
- Having influence over the very center of the multiverse (the Hall of Heroes).
???? I don’t understand? How can this prove their divinity?
Who but a god could lay claim to the very center of all things, to the very building blocks of reality?
Answer that, and perhaps then you can provide how that doesn’t prove divinity.
Even the Elder Dragons, as powerful as they are, are bound to Tyria and require outside resources to let their minions physically access The Mists, and even those resources – such as norn havrouns borrowing power from the Spirits of the Wild, or high priestesses borrowing power from the Six Gods – cannot grant them unlimited access to the very center of all things, or even to the afterlives.
Gods (both the pantheon of the Six and others) and the Spirits of the Wild are beyond what the Elder Dragons can do. Perhaps not as powerful as the Elder Dragons in some cases (particularly the Spirits of the Wild), but they do things that mere mortals – even mere Elder Dragons – cannot hope to ever accomplish.
Did you see the simulation Taimi performed regarding the result of the fight P vs J? It seems that the Dragons have a powersource that, without a vessel can destroy the world. If it can destroy more than the world, it not matter anymore. We will be dead
As proven with Zhaitan and Mordremoth, their power can exist without a vessel harmlessly. The simulation only showed that if Primordus and Jormag’s powers countered each other, the aftermath would destroy Tyria. She also claimed (not tested yet) that three Elder Dragons’ magic in the world would “overload it” (my phrasing). Both cases are on an entirely minuscule scale compared to Abaddon’s rampant power alone destroying (not overloading with magic) Tyria from another dimension.
- The ability to deify other beings (their avatars are effectively of demigod status by appearances).
I keep my doubts regarding this aspect. A god can create everything bellow him. That means he cannot create a God. So, a human can not became a true god.
Aside from the fact you have no source to claim “a god cannot create a god” (whether talking mythological or Tyrian), you’re mistaking Kormir’s ascension of taking the mantle of a pre-existing god to be making a new god from scratch. This is a false equivalent.
Kormir is not “creating a new god”; it is effectively just a transference.
To end this all, let me say there is only one thing needed to define a god as a god in the GW setting…
And that is: “the writers say so”.
And guess what? The writers have said so.
Imhotep – according to all the documents – was a human worshiped as a God of science. This does not make him a God. Because, in North Korea, the leader is treated as a God on Earth. This makes him a God?
If we’re talking factual you’d be right here. If we’re talking mythology – which is where you began – then you’d be wrong.
Exactly this. We have no rules defining a God in Tyria. And this is the reason we try to figure what a God means, by comparing them with what we know.
Can you point to the set of rules used by humans to define a God?
The Six Gods have had a fair share of major acts, including but not limited to:
These are just the “confirmed facts” about what the gods can do that no mortal can.
And I’d like to note that at least one other race’s god (the Great Dwarf) – real or not within the scope of Tyria – has that third bulletpoint as well (ruling over the Great Forge).
If we want to add the “proclaimed but unconfirmed” aspects, then you can add in some things very commonly seen with mythological gods:
Regardless of this list however, the Six Gods (and the five other probably-real gods of Tyrian races – Great Dwarf, Koda, Zintl, Mellaggan, and Ameyalli) are still called gods by Tyrian standards and by Tyrian standards they are gods. Whether or not they would be gods of Nordic, Greco-Roman, Japanese, Aztec, Babylionian or whatever standards is a completely unrelated topic.
According to the definition of the Elder Dragons – as being Primordial Forces, nobody knowing when (or if) they were born, it is very possible that the Dragons to be the “source” of the true Gods.
Not gonna repeat draxynnic on the “gods come from Primordial forces in real life mythology” bit but we do not know the Six Gods’ origins, we simply know that the current generation does not come from Tyria and as such cannot come from the Elder Dragons.
So to say the Six did not come from primordial forces would be to make a claim on something we do not know. Maybe they are the primordial forces of their world, or maybe they come directly from the Mists which are even more primordial than the Elder Dragons.
I’d also like to extend that there are some hints to say that the Elder Dragons are not primordial forces like you proclaim, but are ascended beings. These hints come in the form of pointing to multiple now extinct or endangered draconian races that were on Tyria ages ago. There may or may not be a relation between the Elder Dragons and these draconian races; if there isn’t, then the Elder Dragons may indeed be Tyria’s “primordial forces” but if they aren’t then they’re little different than the Six Gods but of Tyrian origins and draconian instead of humanoid.
Also, in the majority of polytheistic Mythology the Gods creates the Universe/ world etc. And shows no intention to destroy their own creation. By his attitude (not impressed that the world may be destroyed) Balthazar shows that the actual “Gods” were not involved in the Creation of the world or of the life.
Ehhhh, not really.
Almost every mythology has a generations in their gods. The first generation are just as godly as the third or fourth or whatever. In Norse mythos, Thor is just as much of a god as Odin, but Thor had no relation to the creation of the world; in Greek mythos, Zeus had no relation to creating the world, but was still a god.
On the other hand, while the Six Gods had no relation to creating Tyria, that wouldn’t stop them from having no relation to creating other worlds – or their predecessors having created worlds.
And finally – no human had been “promoted” to the state of God. Because even the Gods cannot create Gods.
Hardly. Apotheosis (“to deify”) is a common enough… trope shall we say, in mythologies and stories in general that it has its own name of Greek origin.
Here is a quick google found list of Greek mythological individuals who rose to divinity – quite the lengthy list for “no one”! Chief among them is the famous Herakles (or more commonly known by the latin variation of his name: Hercules).
And “even gods cannot create gods” is the most silly statement ever, given how every mythology deals with children of gods who are gods (as well as children of gods who are just demigods).
Something is funny :-)) Herakles – the most powerful hero in the Greek mythology, the son of the supreme god Zeus, never dared to face a God in fight. And he was a demigod.
Depends on your perspective. He did deal with titans (generation 2 gods) and had made enemies of Olympians (generation 3 gods), more often out of the ways of Greek tragedy (“bad things happen to the hero even though it’s not the hero’s fault” kind of deal) – most notable being Hera’s hatred of our hero who’s name means glory to Hera. He even defied his own father, Zeus, when he freed Prometheus by killing the eagle that would eat his regrown liver every day.
So while he didn’t go fighting mano e mano to a god (unless you count a drinking contest with Dionysus), he did challenge a god – and survived. He’s also killed more than his fair share of demigods (particularly sons of Poseidon, curiously).
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
BuddhaKeks. You’re being too generous with saying it came out of left field.
The only thing that hinted at it being Balthazar pretending to be Lazarus was Lazarus’ heavy use of fire magic. But even then… Marjory said she sensed death from him, right? And in GW1, Lazarus was an elementalist alongside a necromancer (at different points in time) so… yeah, the only “hint” was buried by apparent red herrings.
Gods were not universally good – even ignoring Abaddon and Dhuum (and the canonical unsure “gods of insectoid beings” that may or may not include the equally canonically unsure Arachnia), Balthazar and Grenth were always presented more as “neutral” on the good-evil scale (and even now, though his actions seem kitten ing, Balthazar is still on the neutral portion, though leaning far more towards evil).
Similarly, dragons were not always universally evil – until GW2 introduced the Elder Dragons (yes we saw Primordus and Kralkatorrik in GW1, presuming they’re not retconing the statue into being a dragon champion despite repeatedly telling us it’s the Elder Dragon itself, but we didn’t know their names, or that they were dragons, until promotions for GW2 began post-EotN release), we actually had more good named dragons than evil: Glint, Gleam (though name was unknown at the time, he was in GW1), Kuunavang, Albax and arguably Shiny, versus Kunvie and Rotscale.
And there’s been long theories that even the Elder Dragons might have “once been good” or that races of dragons existed where the Elder Dragons rose from, making dragons just as varying from black to white as humans or charr.
All that said, I doubt they’re setting a stage for GW3 – they’re very clearly wanting to milk GW2 as long as possible (and reasonably so), and are now trying to leave the too-long-standing-in dragon plot.
Besides, the Pact Commander has already been mentally and magically influenced by Aurene. It is an easy argument to say that the PC has long become a dragon champion of Aurene, but lacking any physical alterations like the “evil” Elder Dragons’ minions.
And I’m pretty sure you mean antagonists (primary villain) rather than protagonist (primary hero).
And yet it’s not being done even though it may be easy enough to add and logical, since each race is different. Which suggests to me that there are costs involved that’s stopping it. It may be no more than the cost in writer’s time to think of lore abiding lines for 5 races x the number of lines plus the cost, however minimal, in keeping 5 different dialogue scrips ongoing and separate instead of one script. When you consider that they’ve repeatedly said how stretched they are in how many things they need to do in how much time, even those additional lines may be adding to much to do in the time they’ve allotted themselves to do each episode and now the new expansion.
Again, to my mind, it comes down to tannstaafl.
The point of the thread is that people want it done more, and that – despite the fact there’d only be more work for writers (and not by much, speaking as a writer) – there is no reason (obvious to players at least) for this not to be done more.
It is done, but to a minimal amount – and barely so in the personal story, which is the first interaction people get with the unified storyline.
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