Guild Wars 2

None that have been obviously announced. They always and only planned on three. There were mentions after Sea of Sorrows came out that they’re considering more novelizations but nothing came about.

Shame really.

Most crystals need to be of significant size to really do much in terms of magic. The Mirage and Holosmith have changed this a bit by utilizing the sand – Snaff was the first notable asura to attempt something similar, with his golem Sandy.

I did it very recently and it was no different than after they revamped it in the June 2015 update I mentioned.

So unless it was done in the 8/8 update, they’ve not updated it since June 2015. As far as anyone knows at least.

The Blazeridge Mountains is the homeland of ogres, not giants.

Giants were very varied in GW1 and only the Gray Giants of the Desolation have ever been said to be near extinction. There’s no explanation for why the population decreased so much between the games – or why they went from 12 foot tall tusked and/or horned humanoids to 30 foot tell tuskless, hornless cyclopian fellas.

The next case of home instance animals will clearly be Choya.

Starts out with the green, yellow, red, and blue choya. Then it grows to the elite specialization choya (9 in total), then the Awakened Choya that you have to feed heket legs to, the Super Racoon Choya from SAB, the Mordrem Choya at the end of Dragon’s Stand, and just skyrockets from there.

Yes, it was done a while ago when they restored chapter 7 (greatest fear arc) after they messed that up in the… September 2014 update I think it was, the “new player experience” feature pack. Was updated in the June 23, 2015 update.

They re-recorded a bunch of Trahearne’s dialogue for Claw Island and later (and a handful of others).

It’s been there since launch. As said, it’s a saw mill, hence all the wood lying around.

Fierypyro.7354:

It was alright. I got like 1 coin and two minis and I really am not a fan of the mini portion of this game! Sadly while I liked the idea I think I’ll not be spending my 4k gems on these.

The RNG box mainly has miniatures (only skins you cannot get from laurel vendor are desert rose and monocle and sclerite skins; to be fair monocle from the box unlocks all three armor levels making it a very good drop given TP has each one at ~100g iirc).

The skins mostly come from the sprocket vendor (which also has desert rose).

Vayne.8563:

The Caudecaus Story was introduced at launch and only just resolved recently, 4.5 years later. Not every thread is going to get tied immediately.

Just to cement the point that Anet takes way too long on some plots:

Lazarus’ story was introduced in Eye of the North. In 2007.

When would “Lyssa” have had time to give us such protection, though? When we saw Jennah, she was busy with the White Mantle. No time for subtle protection blessings.

Plus, there’s more than just us – Phlunt and his whole krewe saw him, Marjory and Taimi did both look at Balthazar (Taimi did so twice, even, the second time being in the volcano), and so did the mercenaries, without the illusion. And no doubt so do many Zaishen and Elonians (how else do they know Balthazar is around and it’s not just a case of demonic constructs praising Balthazar while slaughtering?).

Everyone was looking at Balthazar at some point post-illusion breaking.

And all that is ignoring the major holes in the concept that Jennah is Lyssa.

Especially Anise being “half of Lyssa”, given the events of Episode 6. The theory that Anise is Livia’s daughter is far more solid than her being “half of Lyssa”.

Koss Kosssson, Seventh Son of Koss.

Needs more s’s.

There never was much to “believe” or be surprised about since the biography in character creation outright stated why revenants used blindfolds.

I fight with my _ blindfold on to shut out the distractions of the physical world and focus my magical inner sight.

Veil Piercer (“veil piercer”) — Form follows function with this blindfold, designed both to cover a revenant’s eyes and help punch through the barriers that conceal the unseen.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Biography#Revenant

“Magical inner sight” is similar terminology to what ritualists ‘used’ when looking for the spirit threads that made summoning spirits easier.

Minus the sash, that’s a fairly common zombie mini-boss in games dealing with undead/zombies.

Reminds me of that one corrupted angel foe in Darksiders II personally, though I’m fairly sure there was a popular zombie game I never played that heavily advertised something like that.

And anguish? Oh, ye doth not know me. I relish in such creepiness and horror. That’s rather tame, TBH.

There’s a difference, Trejgon, between how we as players see them, and how Tyrians see them. How Tyrians view the Elder Dragons may have changed in the last half-decade as well, but during the personal story, Tyrians view the Elder Dragons and all of their minions as mindless.

This is why there’s such a surprise factor with the risen’s assault of the three Orders’ HQs, and setting a trap for Trahearne during Forging the Pact instance.

Tyrians viewed the Elder Dragons as mindless forces of nature. They were wrong.

But that view dictates the political ramifications of how one nation views other lands. The sovereign lands of Tyria see Orr not as a land ruled by a sapient dragon with its own way of governing things, but as a ruined kingdom littered with mindless monstrosities. Thus they refer to the land by its old name, the same way we refer to the city of Pompeii as such as those ruins still remain, with no new civilization rebuilding it.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

also sure- there is likelyhood that alot in geographical naming of regions in Tyria were mere shortcuts just for the sake of players realising what is supposed to be what – but then when lore is concerned if you are making such shortcuts when naming things you are agreeing to the in-world consequences of those shortcuts

Technically, no.

If “Ascalon” were to be tied to a geographical region, we’d likely see the name being “Ascalonian High Plains” or something of the like. Ascalon is a nation, not a geographical region. Same goes for Orr, Kryta, Deldrimor, and Elona.

Same reason why the Echovald Forest (a geographical region) is not the name of the Kurzick nation and Jade Sea (also a geographical region) is not the name of the Luxon nation (we actually do not have a set name for their nation / vassal state beyond “Kurzick Great Houses” and “Luxon Armada”).

Rather than saying “well we don’t have another name so therefore this name means both” it is more accurate to say “this is a lacking piece of lore that the writers haven’t given us”. Same for things like how the asura, charr, and norn documented the passage of days/weeks/months/years before utilizing the Mouvelian calendar (or even why they use the human Mouvelian calendar).

I am now picturing an undead Norgu who’s fat stomach has rotten away, making him finally skinny. However, he retained his appetite from being alive, and is thus called “Norgu the Gluttonous”. He keeps eating, but as he eats, the food falls out of his rotted gut, so he is never full, and thus keeps on eating.

Dhuum was only overthrown by Grenth and the seven Reapers. The other gods had nothing to do with his downfall.

Besides that, the idea of it being “someone pretending to be a god pretending to be a mursaat” has been… whatever the opposite of implied would be, since even Episode 5. Kasmeer said there’s no more illusion, the mirror got broken, NPCs in Draconis laughed at the notion calling it dumb (and those were humans wanting it to not be Balthazar), etc.

Unless they’re doing the same they did with the origins of sylvari – that is, throwing so many “nope not it” lore and dialogue just to make a grand reveal that ends up contradictory to established lore, we’re looking at Balthazar.

As to the specific notion of it being Dhuum – Dhuum has always been anti-Grenth, rather than anti-Balthazar. So if Dhuum were masquerading as a god, he’d likely be doing so as Grenth rather than Balthzar.

Before the human nation of Kryta existed, the land is just referred to as “valleys”. It had no geographical regional name. Same goes for Ascalon, being “high plains”. ArenaNet kept the same names, but that’s typically not how it actually works. They likely did things non-standardly for the sake of player familiarity.

As for modern Orr: from a matter of politics, Tyrians do not see the Elder Dragons as “a sentient being taking land into control with its own goal”. They have always viewed the Elder Dragons as mindless beings of destruction comparable to natural disasters.

gereden.6983:

except we didnt fight him, at all. we fought his hounds, which lets be honest, any seasoned warrior( which our PC’s are) could probably kill the hounds.

Technically speaking, we didn’t even kill the hounds – not directly. We tricked them into absorbing dragon energy thus sending them into the machine which meant we might have “fed them” into Jormag, Primordus, and Balthazar.

Cristalyan.5728:

This is my opinion too. Keeping the title of “god” for these …. alien beings is useless. As long they can be defeated by mortals and their powers absorbed, the “gods” are primary targets for all the tyrian adventurers.

But we never fought a god at full power. Abaddon’s power was weakened, he was at best at 3/8th of his full strength. Dhuum was a fallen god, thus technically a god no more. Balthazar was similarly weakened, and we’ve yet to fight him directly – and even weakened, he was capable of instantly wiping out a dozen seasoned soldiers empowered by bloodstone magic.

Cristalyan.5728:

What is hard understandable is why the “gods” did not fight themselves with the rebel Abadon and instead relied on a mortal help to finish him?
No matter the reason but if another “god” will be defeated by us, then GW2 will became a god hunt festival.

Because the last time the five fought Abaddon, they turned a verdant coastline into a sulfurous wasteland, and a large sea into a desert.

They also needed a replacement for Abaddon, and probably wanted to make sure the replacement could do the job right so used fighting a weakened not-even-half-strength god while blessed by the other five gods as a test.

Cristalyan.5728:

In the beginning we had the gods as GODS – intangible entities with an existence and purposes over any human mind understanding and the Dragons – insanely strong beings, able to destroy the life on the planet but with understandable reasons and moreover, beings we can fight. And defeat.
Unfortunately ANet lore team left this path and mixed the Dragons and the gods in the same soup.

I’m going to disagree here. The Five/Six Gods have never been intangible, nor were their existence or purpose ever “over any human mind”. They were always the same as any polytheistic pantheon – unaging beings capable of creating life from nothing with human characteristics and human personalities.

In fact, the Elder Dragons were initially presented as intangible entities with an existence and purpose being any mortal understanding. They rather still are, though we’ve learned quite a bit about them. We still don’t know how or why they exist, what their origin is. We only know that they’re wanting to destroy or change the world in their own not-healthy-for-us way and that their existence is tied to The All and killing three will supposedly result in world devastation.

Sadly, your relation to mythology doesn’t fly in Tyrian lore. There’s no cases of human vessels or statue possessions in Tyrian lore. There are illusions, avatars (no possession in these), and the gods themselves.

Balthazar seen in Season 3 is 100% Balthazar himself. We tore down the illusion, and it was no avatar (we’ve seen what his avatars look like in the PS/HoT).

Regarding 2, since that’s easier, that is the implication intended to be given. There’s a lot of sexual attraction implication jokes made throughout that story instance, from Canach’s reaction to Caudecus saying Valette would “never betray daddy” to the White Mantle Mesmer with a Lord Faren illusion.

Regarding 1, it was in an AMA iirc that a dev said that he learned about Caudecus and Bauer foiling the Lazarus revival and took advantage to make it seem like the revival worked. How he learned of the White Mantle, Lazarus, plot against Lazarus/Xera, etc., however, is as far as I know left up in the air.

Well, we learn from the first (and only) story instance in the demo that Rytlock is not blind at all. The blindfold was so he could sort out the voices in his head from his new revenant powers.

As for the actual topic: it’s hinted (but not confirmed) that Balthazar lost his divinity, perhaps in the same way as Dhuum who survived being usurped (unlike Abaddon). We know he’s been weakened either way, and aside from imprisonment the only form of weakening a god we know of is an incomplete succession ala Dhuum.

That said, however, it’s well established in Malchor’s story (and that we fought full-fledged god Abaddon though this could be attributed to the blessing the five avatars gave us just before) that going blind from looking at a god is not instantaneous, but is comparable to staring at the sun or directly into a powerful flashlight for too long. Though some NPCs call it “eye ball melting”, as far as we know it’s just going blind from staring too long, not glimpsing a single glance. Or fighting for ~10 minutes.

There’s not really many ways for the Order of Whispers to move, when we’re told “although crossing the Crystal Desert is currently impossible due to Palawa’s stranglehold over the southern reaches and the desert dragon’s presence in the northern desert” in the same paragraph. If direct route is impossible, indirect route is needed. This means either naval or teleport travel.

One of the NPCs in Amnoon says that most defectors are escaping the farms Joko set up along the Elon, which are north of the Bone Wall. Though some do get through the wall “somehow”, those numbers are much lower than those who are first sent to the farms which are, apparently, much easier to escape despite being one of Elona’s main food sources (one would think they’d be more protected).

As to the Order of Shadows – I disagree with them having a similar mechanical role. The Order of Whispers may have set up bounties for us for demonic beings, the same role was used by Kournan Priests, Vabbian Scouts, and even ghosts (and of course Sunspears). So I wouldn’t put much stalk there. We do get some lore on them, but only that they run bounties. So they seem more to be a guild-like group established to manage the creation and payment of bounties. Further, not all bounties are set for “menaces unbalanced by the surge in magic”, just the ones players get access to.

As for the maps, rather than the Order of Whispers providing the details, I was more implying to the fact that cartographers themselves couldn’t go out there. Which implies access was blocked much longer than 10 years for normal folks. This wouldn’t prevent illegal or secretive access, mind. But does make it harder.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

well I suppose elder dragon and undead empire is “nothing”

also – there are ruins of previous civilisations with ‘nothing’ [undead] taking a hold over it and this chunk of land is not called “ruins of …..” but instead they call it desolation…. [go figure]

Given that Elder Dragons and risen are not considered a civilization, it would be “nothing” in the realm of politics and sovereign lands.

The Desolation is another matter, because it was never its own nation. Those ruins were of Elona, and they were lost to Elona once. The Desolation name is regional – like Jahai Bluffs in Kourna – and named such because the land is desolated of most life. It is part of the Crystal Desert. Joko had conquered Elona and brought Elona’s borders past it once more. So it is now, once again, part of Elona.

Because Elona’s borders move. Because it is a nation, not a geographical region.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

because it’s a part of geographical region of kryta and all “spoken” uses of the name are in regard to the kingdom who have lost it’s reign over those lands long time ago

There is no “geographical region of Kryta” – that’s not how geography works.

It’s never called Kryta because, as you said, the kingdom lost its reign over those lands (or rather, never had such in the case of Southsun Cove).

You’re taking mechanics too factual for actuality. I suggest you read up on how geography works before you continue this discussion.

Not only do you have to assume that holosmiths have been around for 5 years, but also for the Order of whispers to have contact in the Crystal Oasis area. While we know they have contact in Elona, that’s via asura gate and is much further south (in actual Elona) – other NPCs make note of a giant wall that Joko created to block his empire from the north, making direct travel much harder, with only some farms on the northern side of the wall. I believe the wall can even be seen in the unexplored map as there is a very out of place solid and thick line just north of the Desolation (along the southern end of the Elon, which is implied to be largely/wholly on the northern end of “the Bone Wall”).

With the Crystal Oasis area having been in lockdown for the past decade at minimum (though Snaff was able to get supplies from the desert, I find it hard to believe that Amnoon could be created in such capacity for Tyrian cartographers to be so wrong in just 10 years time – per Sparking the Flames starting dialogue), it’s likely that the highlands/Oasis/Elon area has been out of reach even for the Order of Whispers. Or alternatively, a place they didn’t believe was merit contact.

Kalavier.1097:

I think the holosmith “holograms” and asura “holograms” are simply two different paths.

Most of all asura holograms we see have no physical presence/can’t harm anything (there are a handful of cases otherwise), where the holosmith items seem to all have a physical presence that can interact or smack stuff around.

There were two major asura inventors along hologram technology in GW2: Moto and Elli.

Moto focused on virtual reality holograms, and indeed those do not have a physical presence.

Elli however focused on holograms with a physical presence. We see the first of her major inventions in Orr PS, along the Whispers route. It was in fact her technology sold to Lion’s Arch to create physical holograms that could smack around fighters, which the Aetherblades stole for Scarlet, which in turn became the foundation for the Prime Hologram fight (which again was very physical).

Doesn’t mean others couldn’t do the same of course, but asura holograms were very much in place to have a “physical presence” and could harm things.

As to Zott’s involvement – from Elli’s words: He saw my hologram and figured I could make it fight. After some experiments, I was able to create a viable holo-battleframe.

Doesn’t quite say he was involved in those experiments, just that Zott gave her the idea. So it’s hard to say exactly whether he did or not.

Charr and asura have not been the only technologically advanced races. Humans in GW1 had many such advancements – they created miniature automatic toys, had automatic magically-powered tower cannons (in Vabbi), created elevator systems (Kurzicks), and much more.

I think it’s fine to hear that non-charr/asura have built upon the advancements of charr and asura in new ways, or have developed technologies in their own routes. That is how all technology advances, after all. This is especially true in the case of applying Zephyrite crystal magic with the engineer school – charr and asura wouldn’t have access to both, so it makes sense that humans in Elona, who do have access to both, would develop such. It would, in fact, be far more jarring if we’re told “well, some asura took Zephyrite Sun Crystals and merged it with engineer teachings and technologies”.

The only thing I don’t like is the name. “Holosmith” implies use of holograms, which are a definite asura thing – both with Elli (and later Scarlet) and Moto pioneering in hologram technologies in two separate fashions. Ultimately making the problem of holosmiths the same problem that “dragon hunters” had. Poor/misleading naming choice, and the rest is fine/good.

1. Yes, but under Joko’s rule. Kourna and Istan are both vassals, while Vabbi is under his direct control.
2. Unknown. There are some similarities in clothing between the GW1 Order of Whispers and the Order of Shadows, but there’s nothing to connect the two atm. The Order of Shadows just shows itself to be a bounty guild, established to manage bounties and their rewards.
3. Based on Sparking the Flames, the Forged are souls encased in armor (akin to Shiro’ken in GW1) using the souls of both willing followers of Balthazar and those killed by the Forged. The Zaishen seem to be a human army following and working for Balthazar – think of Margonites (humans turned into demonic entities) and Kournans (human army) from Nightfall that both followed Abaddon.
4. That’s pretty much impossible to say, but I would bet on no.
5. One of the NPCs do say there’s rumors he is a djinn, but it’s just that – rumors.
6. Years of association and brainwashing. There’s a dialogue between a Priory and a refugee where the refugee says her parents were outcasted, preventing all “hope” of being “Awakened by King Joko” (phrasing to the best of my memory) and lamenting such – basically, she says that becoming an Awakened is of the highest honors among Elonians, that becoming such is the same as Joko promising prosperity for one’s family for all time. Amnoon was (re)built outside of Joko’s empire, so all Awakened there are basically emissaries and travelers, and most who live there don’t want to be under Joko’s yoke so they’re iffy of Awakened, but not strictly afraid of them.
7. Don’t think I’ve seen that message, but likely this ties to his defeat and imprisonment at the hands of Turai Ossa, a former Kournan Warmarshal, 200 years before GW1’s time and his later fight with Varesh Ossa’s forces in Nightfall’s time.

The “Unidentified Gear” feels like an intended replacement for all the bags people keep complaining about.

It’s either your inventory getting filled up super fast, Anet making even blues and greens super uncommon drops to prevent the first issue, or some variation of the unidentified gear / gear bags.

Those are your only options, really.

Honestly, I like the new outcome, but I feel it should replace all gear drops so I can break the habit of hitting “salvage all” with the unidentified gear in my inventory faster. I would accept only gear bag drops too though.

Only Bloodstone Fen is in the “Heart of Maguuma” region, but due to how mastery insights were designed, since they’re all HoT masteries they talk about the maguuma / jungle even if it’s Bitterfrost Frontier (mechanically a Shiverpeaks region map).

Instead of continents like GW1 had to differentiate releases, we have mastery sections (for lack of a better term) which for HoT just labels things as being in the jungle, whether they are or not (and for PoF, it’s in the Crystal Desert). Should be looked at either way – they went and removed the much-better sounding Magus Falls in favor of Heart of Maguuma because of such confusions after all.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

yet Rome is still Rome, and quite alot actually of cities dating back to the roman empire remain their names.

Rome is a city, and though its rulership changed, the city remains to this day.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

the political entity would took probably different name – with within the old world people would still refer to it as a “Land of the Rising Sun” – because that name did not came straightly out of japanese people but more from the act that if you center the map around the “old world” [europe] japanese is the place furthest east so the poetry started going on how the sun rise there

I am fairly certain the term predates when western cultures began communicating with Japan.

It’s got little to do with location.

Lord Trejgon.2809:

Fahranur for example belongs to previous civilisation – and while Fahranur empire fell, there re sources in game [gwn] implying that “fahranurian” already called the land elona [at least it’s continental part]

Fahranur was not a previous civilization, it was no empire. It was a city, nothing else.

Fahranur was a city in the Elonian empire ruled by the Primeval Kings. When they founded their empire that at first consisted of only what became called Istan and Kourna, they dubbed it “Elona”.

Regarding Orr – that’s because the Orrian kingdom is all that was and is there. Even destroyed, it is where the kingdom of Orr was. We’re not calling the land Orr, but rather the kingdom that was in that land Orr. It’s the same reason we talk about the land around Pompeii as Pompeii and not some new land – because a new city has not been built over it, so it is still the ruins of Pompeii; similarly, it’s still the ruins of Orr (hence the region’s name being Ruins of Orr and not just “Orr” – Orr is the name of the kingdom located on that peninsula and people refer to that peninsula as Orr because they’re referring to the land of the once kingdom which has not yet been replaced).

Despite being in the mechanical region of Kryta, Bloodtide Coast is never once called “Kryta”. Same with Southsun Cove.

Seeker’s Village folks are less “well howdie stranger!” and more “I don’t know who you are BUT PLEASE HELP US WE’RE BEING MURDERED.” whether human or not – and in Amnoon, we already have Priory of multiple races (including sylvari, norn, and charr I saw), and Rytlock was there before us as well.

Plus, it’s not like Elonians are foreign to the concept of talking, sapient non-humans. There are centaurs in Elona (or were), ogres in Amnoon, and Elonians seem to still have history books with knowledge of distant lands (not one goes “Lion’s Arch? What’s that?” and rightfully so I’d imagine given how many Priests of Kormir there are in the little area we see).

Besides, when you live next to a nation of literal plathora of sapient undead races (Awakened are known in the past to include: centaurs, giants, humans, and what seem to be charr), you probably become used to seeing odd sapient creatures.

It seems to me that the Priory excursions into the desert (the only known excursions to exist) has blunted the folks of Crystal Oasis to norn, asura, charr, and even sylvari.

It does seem that there will be Zephyrites somehow involved in PoF (which makes sense, given that a good number of them are Elonian) given one of the achievements in the Crystal Oasis naming a “Zephyrite village”.

However, that song was not introduced with “Kerida”, and despite the appropriate link of Zephyrites in the new maps there’s no connection known or implied so far between “Kerida” and the Zephyrites. So, as said, they likely wanted her to sing something and chose something iconic to players.

If it had any relevance, I’d bet it was as relevant as that White Mantle Knight in episode 1 wielding a Balthazar Shield – out of place, a hint to Balthazar’s return, but no direct relevance between the NPC and The Big B.

Ithilwen.1529:

First , there has been a succession among the gods. Some have risen and others fallen. As I pointed out in another thread, each of the current gods have multiple associations. Some of them overlap.

True. But of the few cases we have of succession has one domain always remaining. In Grenth/Dhuum’s case, it is death. In Abaddon/Kormir’s case, it is knowledge. The other things associated with the four gods are superficial at best, and could be said to not ever be truly a domain they govern, but just a flavor they have.

These two domains also match exactly how the norn view the “Spirits of Action” (as they call the gods) – which they call Life, Death, War, Knowledge, and Nature (we’re not sure on what they call Lyssa though). Which would mark the one thing that ties Primordus and Balthazar together… irrelevant.

Ithilwen.1529:

I’d place Melandru as opposite Mordremoth, Earth and her specific affinity with plants.

Glint ( the lieutenant of Kralkatorik ) was a Mesmer and associated with crystals. So, I’d associate Lyssa with Kralkatoric.

In the story step Hidden Arcana, Glint’s telepathic skills are explicitly stated to be “unique” to her. Of course, the Dragonspawn exhibits similar attributes in Edge of Destiny, and Mordremoth’s second domain is mind (though he never uses telepathy on non-mordrem/sylvari).

So just because Glint used telepathy/mesmer magic, doesn’t mean Kralkatorrik even can. By all indication – albeit all of such comes from Edge of Destiny novel – he never once exhibits any mesmer like qualities, and aside from the color purple and shared animations, neither do the branded.

In short: Glint is unreliable in that regard. What we do see both Glint and Kralkatorrik linked to are crystals and air/sky.

So that second domain could link Kralkatorrik up to Dwayna, but that’s still not linking Crystals and Life.

Ithilwen.1529:

I didn’t say or imply that the dragons served the gods. I said that they counterbalance. That being the case, The gods arriving at a different moment from the gods isn’t really relevant.

Actually, it is entirely relevant because the gods arrived as gods, and the Elder Dragons are directly tied to the world.

This means that the gods are not tied to the world at all, thus their origins and their powers are intrinsically different.

The idea of associating gods to dragons has been around since we first learned that there were not five but six Elder Dragons. And time and time again, it fails to link up. For reasons both of us have presented. It has come up but failed to be anywhere close to conclusive so much that ArenaNet put a reference to the ever-returning discussion in the game.

The closest attempt I’ve ever seen was by splitting association by domains rather than directly 1:1 ratio, so that one god and one dragon held the same domain. This fell in error, however, because of too many assumptions (it forced assuming Jormag’s and Primordus’ second domains and the DSD’s two domains to fit well enough with the conceptual domains of the gods, and turned Kralkatorrik’s second domain into something much different than what it seems to be by all evidence (sky/air)).

If Elona the nation falls and a new nation is there, then the land which is currently called Elona will be called something else.

Same way that once upon a time, we called the peninsula shaped like a boot “the Roman Empire” and not “Italy”. Same way once upon a time, there was a land called Carthage that exists no more, instead that same place is called the Tunis Governorate. Once upon a time, we had Gaul; now that land is France, Belgium, Luxemburg and parts of the Netherlands, Switzerland, Germany.

Being called “Land of the Golden Sun” does not mean Elona is more than a nation. Japan is called “Land of the Rising Sun” but it is a nation, should Japan fall and a new nation rise, then it will take on a new name and a new moniker that replaces that phrase.

Elona is not a landscape, like the Siberian Peninsula or the Rocky Mountains or the Sahara Desert. It is a nation. And like all nations, its borders can expand, contract, and be eliminated all together. Elona consists of landscapes called Jahai Bluffs, Vehtendi Valley, Issnur Isles, and now the Desolation and now reaches into the Crystal Desert. But it is not a landscape.

The same goes for Kryta, Ascalon, Deldrimor (which is now non-existent), the Canthan Empire, etc. Technically speaking, the land we call “Ascalon” in GW2 shouldn’t be called such – the only reason it is, is because the charr have adopted the name for their conquered lands. If they didn’t, we could be calling Charrnotopia, and the borders of Ascalon would be within the Fields of Ruin map.

Rognik.2579:

After playing a bit of Path of Fire, I feel more comfortable saying that you’re wrong in this. I’m not quite ready to say where is Elona and where isn’t, but Amnoon is NOT in Elona. Many of the refugees, deserters and other NPCs make it clear that they’re fleeing from Elona to Amnoon, and don’t want to go back.

Yes, it seems Elona’s borders don’t go as far north as I initially expected. But that doesn’t make me wrong on the rest.

Rognik.2579:

Now, if the nation of Elona happens to consist only of Kourna, Istan and Vabbi, then there’s still room for your theory. But I don’t recall anywhere saying that Kourna or Vabbi were just provinces of a larger nation. I’m pretty sure each one of those three regions were independently ruled, for better or for worse.

To quote GW1’s manual:

Elona thrives in a realm surrounded by savannahs, deserts, plains, and wastelands. Three allied provinces stand side by side to support this proud nation. To the west is Istan, an island province littered with the ruins of an earlier Elonian empire. To the east is Kourna, known for its fiercely loyal soldiers, dedicated army, expansive estates, and agriculture. The northern province of Vabbi is home to wealthy merchant princes, a land where successful Elonians believe their safety, security, and affluence allow them to sponsor many of their nation’s greatest achievements. Despite occasional rivalries, these three provinces—Istan, Kourna, and Vabbi—have kept Elona prosperous and strong for over a thousand years.

The manual itself calls Elona a nation that is consisted of three allied provinces. This paragraph is in fact the very first entry of lore in the manual, on page 11.

@Lord Trejgon.2809: The Desolation is part of the Crystal Desert, so the nation of Elona is not south of the Crystal Desert, but south of the Crystal Oasis area. It contains part of the Crystal Desert (mainly The Desolation and possibly more, depending on what the next map south contains).

If Jormag’s champions couldn’t control icebrood without Jormag, then how did Drakkar corrupt dozens of Sons of Svanir to siphon their powers to help Jormag rise?

Jormag cannot “reach others’ minds and corrupt them”. There is nothing to support your claim. The Dragonspawn could reach into others’ minds (but technically speaking, nothing says it corrupted through this manner), just as Glint could reach into others’ minds (though nothing says she corrupted through this manner) and she’s said to be unique among dragons.

Why do you think Kralkatorrik immediately went to Glint upon waking up if it didn’t detect her betrayal? It had a hive mind with its minions, so it would know Glint’s betrayal. From what lore we have, its heavily implied Glint betrayed Kralkatorrik while he slept, being Kralk’s intended herald champion.

I think you should go back to play Eye of the North, or read Edge of Destiny: Svanir tapped into the still hibernating Drakkar. Not the other way around.

@Slowpoke: In order of comments:

1. Different from the Dragonspawn, but not different from other icebrood champions or Jormag by all known accounts.
2. And Mordremoth was greater than Jormag, not equal. Jormag’s directions are primarily to its champions when they are present, just as Primordus, Zhaitan, and Kralkatorrik do.
3. You have no support to say that about Kralkatorrik. The Elder Dragons actually do wake up similarly – the major difference is whether or not they had a herald champion to facilitate their awakening (Jormag and Mordremoth did, Zhaitan and the DSD likely did, Primordus did until we killed it pushing him back 50 years, and Kralkatorrik didn’t pushing him back 50 years) And again, Mordremoth is a one of a kind example due to his domain of mind, which Jormag does not have.
4. Drakkar wasn’t the same as the Dragonspawn. It was only able to telepathically link to Svanir because Svanir created the link and channeled Jormag’s power into him. The Dragonspawn did not require others to create a link, it was able to create one itself.

@Aaron: Braham also had a magical insta-kill-any-icebrood scroll, which Aesgir supposedly used. Aesgir is also known for having killed Jormag’s mightiest champion, Frostfang, in a single punch. So it’s likely that Braham’s bow (and any other proverbial weapon that may be enchanted by that scroll, if any) could effectively one-shot even the strongest dragon champions.

That would give a major advantage to Braham and make getting a small group up towards Jormag much easier than a spread out army of norn who don’t like major cooperations.

Haven’t seen the new models yet myself – going in-game now so I’ll check it out. However, I always thought that ogres looked way too similar to these guys from GW1 and their Vabbian counterparts who are known to have tamed minotaurs.

Maybe this is Anet’s way to saying those particular giants are not the same as the reworked cyclopian giants of Kryta (which were in GW1, called Hill Giants).

I think it’s meant to be that implied that Kralkatorrik is “another major villain”. In the teasers, we’re told there are three primary factions in Elona/Crystal Desert: Forged, Awakened, and Branded. That puts Balthazar, Joko, and Kralkatorrik all on par to each other in terms of importance in the same respect as the Itzel/Nuhoch, Chak, and mordrem were in HoT.

As to the Aurene mount: it’s ‘probable’ we’ll ride her as a story-only mount. But in the argument of “immersion breaking” – there’s only one Caladbolg, but now everyone can wield it at the same time.

Elona is technically not a continent. It’s a nation.

In GW1, it was mechanically a continent, which has led to much confusion among players who began to view it as a continent rather than a nation, but in lore it has always been just a nation. In GW1’s time, the nation only consisted of its three provinces: Istan, Kourna, and Vabbi. In the past, certain groups attempted to spread it north into the Crystal Desert (specifically the Primeval Kings and Turai Ossa, the later creating the colony Elonia in the desert) but they failed. Joko has done so again, and succeeded.

So during GW1’s time, the Crystal Desert and its sub-region, the Desolation, were not part of Elona. But in GW2’s time it is.

When most folks talk about continental Tyria – like in the outdated wiki ugrakarma quoted – they’re actually referring to “Central Tyria” – continental Tyria is much, much, much bigger and includes Elona. As one can see here.

Avariz.8241:

Before entering Orr in the personal story of GW2, there is an Abaddon temple under the sea in the Strait of Devastation. The PC did a mission there. In that temple there was a holy relic of Abaddon. Near the end of the mission PC has to fight 2 Zhaitan bosses. One of the bosses is Mouth of Zhaitan. The Mouth of Zhaitan took the holy ancient relic of Abaddon and consumed it. The Mouth of Zhaitan managed to get away. Zhaitan did have the ability to consumed/corrupted/transformed divine magic from the Six.

I am aware of that mission. Here is what’s said about the “holy ancient relic” :

Trahearne: Zhaitan craves something inside that temple, so we must get there first. Sayeh will accompany you as a guide.

We literally know nothing about what the Mouth took in there.

If I overlooked a line, please, look over the wiki article and quote it to me

Avariz.8241:

Unless Anet introduce more spirits of the wild that are alien then what spirits of the wild we have currently is just too closely associated with human kind. It is this reason alone with the current spirits of the wild being too familiar with what we would expect from a human world that I would associate spirits of the wild as being part of the human shamanistic spiritual religion.

I don’t get this argument at all. The spirits of the wild we know are “too human”? How? Because they’re of animals that exist on Earth? How about Wurm or Minotaur then?

I don’t get how they are “too closely associated with human kind”. Humanity never had anything to do with the Spirits of the Wild. The closest we get is, as I said, the forest and sea spirits of Kurzicks and Luxons. They may be the same thing, or may not be.

Avariz.8241:

On a side note, I had written in the past that Zhaitan has close similarity with western medieval occidental Christian/Judaic religious artistic representation of the apocalyptical dragon before Anet made one of its arm much bigger than the other. Now with HOT, Mordy has striking similarity to the modern oriental good luck dragon. Ancient oriental dragon were not depicted like that.

Oh, okay, I get it.

You’re taking Earth-based inspiration as saying that they are “too human” and thus “not Tyrian”. That logic is heavily flawed.

ugrakarma.9416:

Show Spoiler

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In the side quest, Rose makes an interesting questioning, firstly how such monuments were intact after re-emergence of a entire continent from sea? … even more interesting, is that the developers put this in evidence.

Day 5: I traveled farther inland. The architecture here is far more grandiose. It’s truly a sight to behold. I’m amazed that the rise of Orr didn’t completely reduce these monuments to rubble

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Risen_Research

“completely reduce these monuments to rubble” is different than “they are not destroyed.” There is an NPC, wiki page, which tells us only Abaddon’s reliquary wasn’t destroyed.

Avariz.8241:

Not saying I am right, but animals and trees are the preserve of Melandru. All the spirits of the wild that we know of exemplified by animals of the wilderness are associated under the care of Melandru including human. For example leopard, wolf, and bear are animals that come under the ward of Melandru in the story. Where as animals of the Jutan, Trolls, and some other more alien creatures have very little association with Melandru.

Technically, that’s how humans view it but not necessarily how it actually is. Melandru – like humans – are alien to Tyria (world). We don’t know if the Six Gods brought any animals with them when they brought humans and Forgotten.

Melandru “adopted” Tyrian nature, it didn’t belong to her always and forever.

It sounds like you’re basically saying “animals we can find on earth are under Melandru’s domains, while fantasy creatures are not” and that is a heavily flawed argument.

Polytheistic gods are never omnipotent or omniscient. At best, they’re “omnipotent in their own domain” – which is how humans in Tyria view their gods, meaning that there is no being greater at war and fire than Balthazar, no being greater at healing and air manipulation than Dwayna, no being greater at death and ice than Grenth, etc. But that bit is questionable.

But that doesn’t make them “not gods” nor “not very powerful”. We never fought a god that was at full power, never witnessed the strength such could have. The closest we got are three fallen and/or weakened gods.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Granted, none of that means that the norn can’t give resettlement a try. Every account of when they were driven south makes Jormag out to be the problem, not his icebrood, and Braham’s new guild likely wouldn’t have been able to reach the dragon without cutting through his minions.

They’d still have a fight on their hands, sure, but that’s the way the norn like it.

While true, this was also shortly after Jormag woke up. He didn’t have as vast an army of minions then as he does now.

The Greyhawk.9107:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Zhaitan was awake for only 100 years, and even 10 years after a major war against risen forces and the death of Zhaitan, Orr is still mired with risen.

Wouldn’t it have been five years rather than ten?

Yes, right you’re, was thinking from Edge of Destiny’s time for some reason, probably the discussions about Kralkatorrik moving to now elsewhere.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Neither Primodrus nor Zhaitan use the same telepathic link to control their minions.

This is false. We see the destroyers go into disarray due to the loss of telepathic link to them from the Great Destroyer in the end of Eye o the North, and in the personal story the Pale Tree outright tell us that Zhaitan and risen have a telepathic link albeit not in that phrasing.

We also see Kralkatorrik telepathically commanding his minions during Edge of Destiny, and of course we know Mordremoth does the same.

Mordremoth was best at the telepathic commands, being able to micromanage it for each individual minion unlike the other Elder Dragons who could only give large commands to many of their forces (thus requiring champions for “interpretation”), but all six Elder Dragons seem fully capable of using telepathic commands in their minion-master hive mind.

Slowpokeking.8720:

No, other dragons use different ways to control their minions. We don’t see EoD or any team use the same tactic on other dragon champions like they did to the Dragonspawn.

Drakkar was just a tool, it was Jormag using it to contact others. Without Jormag, it’s not gonna happen.

Largely because they were not so overwhelmed in those other fights, perhaps also because the Dragonspawn was the one using mesmer magic and not all icebrood, and perhaps also because of running out of that mcguffin gray power crystal powder.

The Dragonspawn was definitely unique in its telepathic abilities, even among icebrood, as we clearly see it never being done by other icebrood champions.

Jurah was also an old man who retired immediately/shortly after Nightfall. It seemed he was wanting to live out the rest of his days in peace from his dialogue. Unless it’s as an Awakened by Palawa Jerko, I don’t expect to see Jurah or Morgahn.

I am doubtful. While Scarlet and Ogden (and many others by association) like to claim The All and the Eternal Alchemy as the same thing, we’re told that The All is about the inner workings of Tyria, while the Eternal Alchemy is the inner workings of all things.

That’s like comparing Earth’s atmosphere, magnetic force, wind and water currents etc. to the expansion of the universe. They’re not the same, not by a long shot. But to Tyrians, who know so little about the multiverse, it might as well be.

@Ithilwen: The ELder Dragons existed on Tyria for dozens of thousands of years longer than the Six Gods ever first stepped foot on the world. The gods arrived after / at the later years of the last dragonrise, around 2,000-1,500 BE; we have records indicating the Elder Dragons going back at least 20,000 BE (possibly 30,000 BE depending on one’s interpretations).

Furthermore, we see clearly that Primordus does not serve Balthazar in Season 3 – and the whole “god to dragon” association fails dramatically after the first half.

Grenth is death so Zhaitan. Okay, then who’s Jormag, who is ice? And if we use Dhuum instead of Grenth, there is no god of ice (Dhuum was never associated with ice).

In recent update, Mordremoth is called life (though I would hardly call vegetation “life” but w/e), that would be Dwayna, not Melandru, so which dragon is “nature” for Melandru? Or if Mordremoth goes to Melandru, who does Dwayna go to?

There is no god of crystals, and no dragon of knowledge.

The only god/dragon that lines up perfectly is Primordus and Balthazar…. except Primordus is not war, and that’s Balthazar’s primary domain.

I doubt it holds much significance for PoF. As Kalavier said, it’s the Zephyrite song that we first heard (and in full then) during Bazaar of the Four Winds. They probably just took an iconic song for her to sing.

She could have sung Fear Not This Night in all honesty for its likely relevance.

Avariz.8241:

Precedence for divine magic transformation/corruption/consumption by elder dragon and others do exist. Zhaitan is know to have collected all manner of magical items and holy reliquaries and consuming them. As the story presented it, these magical items and holy reliquaries must have included magical items from the Six. Zhaitan has also fully corrupted all orrian holy sites and temples of the Six and usurping the Six divine powers in these places.

Zhaitan never raided the holy reliquaries, which are in Siren’s Landing. They remain closed and destroyed even now. We also don’t know which – if any – of the “holy items” are actually with divine magic and not just holy due to their association rather than origin.

On the flip side, we have multiple examples of divine magic, or individuals related to the Six Gods, being immune or outright countering dragon magic, including:

• The Foefire ghosts, immune to Kralkatorrik’s corruptive breath; Sohothin and Magdaer were made in Orr while the gods lived there, possible tie.
• Divine Fire, made mordrem flee in terror and killed the nigh unkillable Shadow of the Dragon, definite tie.
• Forgotten magic, outright immune to all dragon corruption and some is even capable of reversing the hive mind of dragon minions, highly probable tie.
• Bloodstones, made of “divine resources” per the Forgotten tablets in Tarir, is completely hidden from the Elder Dragons (the only case of dragons using bloodstone is of high priests who had shards on hand in life).
• Balthazar himself, though weakened and possibly no longer god of war, stood in front of Primordus and an army of destroyers without getting nommed on, before he could turn on the machine.

Avariz.8241:

Jormag has consumed spirits of the wild. The best known are Spirit of the Owl, Spirit of the Ox, and Spirit of the Wolverine. These spirits of the wild have a human origin and therefore lead to the six even if subsequently the norn have taken up the religion after they had lost their magitech in accordance to ancient jotun lore.

Just to clarify, nothing actually links the Spirits of the Wild with the same divinity as either the Six Gods, which is very real even if unknown (or exactly “divinity” as one would expect it to be), or the theoretical divinity of other gods like Koda and Zintl.

I am not sure where you get that the spirits of the wild have “a human origin and therefore lead to the six”. There is nothing about the Spirits of the Wild in any human lore, historical or modern. The closest we get are the Kurzick “forest spirits” that include Urgoz, and the Luxon “sea spirits” that include Zhu Hanuku.

Avariz.8241:

Kormir herself have merged and transformed Abaddon’s divine knowledge and power. I don’t think Abaddon wanted that way in how his knowledge and power were merged and transformed by Kormir. So in Abaddon’s case despite it went against his will his divine knowledge and divine power were consumed/corrupted/transformed.

But not by a dragon, and technically Abaddon was killed at that moment – his body breaking up, and his power being unleashed.

Keep in mind that Joko’s invasion of Vabbi began 60 years after Nightfall, so most heroes would have been dead by even that point. While it’s plausible for Joko to have razed their graves, given Joko had only directly assaulted Vabbi I find it unlikely he would have done so for the heroes in Kourna and Istan (Morgahn, Dunkoro, Koss, Margrid, and Melonni). Such wouldn’t stop Joko, but it would give pause – especially since they’d just be run of the mill undead husks without a soul to trap too (if the implication that intelligence of Awakened undead is due to souls being in the bodies). Zhed and Tahlkora I can definitely see being alive and facing Joko’s return, and I would see a certain irony in Zhed being made an intelligent, self-aware Awakened who cannot rebel against his new master.

Either way, hopefully they won’t make every hero from Nightfall into an Awakened, but seeing some of them turned would be cool.

Zhaitan was awake for only 100 years, and even 10 years after a major war against risen forces and the death of Zhaitan, Orr is still mired with risen.

Jormag was awake for 150 years years, had minions being created by Drakkar for 100 years before that, and there’s been no major war effort against icebrood.

Every Elder Dragon uses telepathic links to control its minions, but champions are used both when awake and asleep to act as routers of sorts. So long as champions remain alive and active, icebrood will remain organized just as risen still are (though they almost aren’t it seems).

Technically I’m saying one could pull off the story that his will survived. The exact wording we got in-game was:

<Party leader>: “Kormir?”
Kormir: “No. Yes. Kormir. And much more.”
<Party leader>: “Abaddon?”
Kormir: “No. His power. His knowledge. But not him. His will is broken. There is a new god of secrets. There is a new day.”

Which doesn’t say he is forever gone, just that the goddess that came out was not Abaddon, but had part of him within her. Basically, the “Kormir” that came out was the combination of mortal Kormir and god Abaddon. Both as individuals ceased to exist.

There were devs that repeatedly stated Abaddon was gone for good (though with how often they’re contradicting interviews now I’m afraid that’s not much proof anymore…), but if Kormir were to go evil because Abaddon’s broken will got “mended”, would it really be Abaddon that’s returning, or just Kormir going evil? After all, Abaddon and Kormir both ceased to exist, so if the new goddess of knowledge went rogue due to Abaddon’s influence, it is not technically a return of Abaddon.

And yes, that is a bit of splitting hairs, but that’s the point – one can “bring Abaddon back” while “Abaddon is dead and gone for good” remains true.