Guild Wars 2

In GW1, the lore of the gods definitely did “evoke feelings of awe, terror, and mystery”. GW2 has made them suffer by diminishing them a bit, as making all human history and their gods less significant was ArenaNet’s answer to making the story multi-racial rather than human centric, when what they should have done instead was adapt the other races to give them a different perspective without reducing importance.

Balthazar is one of the more awe and terror invoking gods from GW1 lore, just under Grenth, Dhuum, and Abaddon.

@Stitch:

@RyuDragnier: I’m not going to bother with a spoiler tag on this since you’re bringing up E1 and E3 stuff, but it’s more than just exposing the two energies on ED scale, it’s the amount of magic that’d be released into the world. With two Elder Dragons dead and some of their magic absorbed by bloodstones, Aurene, Jormag, Primordus, and possibly Kralkatorrik and DSD as well, we’re already getting rifts, overflowing ley lines, and explosive anomalies. What more do we get if we’re at three Elder Dragons dead?

Killing them one at a time isn’t a solution, because we did that and we see symptoms already. Hell, we saw symptoms with one Elder Dragon dead.

Is it a coincidence? Yes.

This topic has come up so often that ArenaNet went and made an joke about it in Season 2, telling us how all arguments result in nothing supporting it.

• Even “Mordremoth = Melandru” doesn’t work because Mordremoth = Plant+Mind and Melandru = Plant+Animal, while Lyssa=Mind (somewhat).
• Even “Zhaitan=Grenth” doesn’t fit because then who does Jormag fit? Dwayna isn’t anything about ice or cold, that’s 100% Grenth and only Grenth.
• Kormir doesn’t fit anything because no dragon is about truth and order.
• Lyssa got water from Abaddon, but what about before Kormir’s rise, then she’d have no relation to any Elder Dragon (despite Kralkatorrik’s purpleness, nothing relates him to chaos or to mesmerism; Glint was stated to be 100% unique in her telepathy).

And this is only partially ignoring the fact that the elemental side of the gods changes around. To elabroate:

• Water, obviously, changed from Abaddon to Lyssa, ignoring Kormir.
• Grenth brought ice in all by himself, Dhuum has no relation to ice.
• Kormir, rather than being Wisdom and Water like Abaddon pre-fall or Secrets and Abyssal Depths post-fall, was Truth, Order, and Spirit – the latter two seemingly/potentially coming from Dwayna.

And then there’s the fact that the gods have things that the Elder Dragons don’t come close to touching, such as War, Life, Illusion, Beauty.

So yes, it is a coincidence. And people have been bringing it up trying to make a connection of 1:1 ever since before Mordremoth was even hinted at.

You… you’re saying that GW1 was great storytelling, but think Season 1 was beautiful?

Season 1’s storytelling was kitten compared to GW1 and Season 3. Season 3 has definitely been an improvement, though not without its (sometimes glaring like the Lazarus reveal or Braham’s attitude in episode 3) issues, but they’ve nothing but improved since Season 1. Heart of Thorns’ biggest issue was rate of story progression and amount of content, but its storytelling itself was fairly well done – better than both Season 1 and Season 2 (on par, IMO, to personal story but with different sets of pros and cons between the two).

I think you’ve not bothered to read the dialogue and understand what his words in the final instance means. Balthazar didn’t come off as evil, just apathetic. And there’s a huge difference there – and I’d say, with Balthazar having a bad temper (if not worse) since no later than Factions (see: Kaolai’s story), his character development is not unfound. He very clearly states that something happened to him in the past since we last knew of him, and that something was enough to demoralize him and turn him apathetic.

That “something” was left a mystery in typical “making far too many mysteries” fashion. But the only bad thing about this release was the unanswered questions of “why did Balthazar pretend to be Lazarus, and why did he hire non-humans when he was previously stated to be in favor of only humans?”

And, uhm, I’m not seeing an “obsession with the love life” of any characters. We’ve not dealt with love in the forced dialogue since Season 2. What little there was in Heart of Thorns and Season 3 has all been optional dialogue, with at most hints in the forced dialogue.

Indeed. As much as I find Taimi an annoying twerp, at least she has been loyal and present the whole time.

And this episode had stopped her Mary Sue tracks in their, well, tracks.

Primordus and Jormag can easily come back within the lifespan of GW2. They’ve just been put on the bus so ArenaNet can focus on other things. I’d expect that expansion 2 will do the same for Kralkatorrik and the DSD will be left alone because he’s not influencing Tyria.

The reason Primordus and Jormag can come back is because while they’re asleep, they wake up when there’s a lot of ambient magic and… there’s a kitten ton of ambient magic. They’ve been drained of magic thanks to Balthazar, but they still have dragon champions out there who can gather magic for them (just as The Great Destroyer and Drakkar did) and wake them up. It’s only a matter of time.

Previously, it took the “heralds” of the Elder Dragons a few decades to gather enough magic to wake them, but with more magic out in the world that could easily be shorter.

So we’re likely done with those two until ArenaNet decides it’s time to go back to dragons.

Expansion 2 will definitely have some Kralkatorrik influence, if the leaked images from this morning are anything to go by (images of the maps show lots of purple corruption, but not as heavily as the Dragonbrand curiously).

As for the Six Gods becoming the next set of villains, I don’t think so. Firstly, Balthazar had always a temperment issue, even in GW1, and he definitely talks about a group of others he sees as his enemies. There’s two strong candidates for who this “they” are that he mentions – one being Dhuum and Menzies, the other being the remaining Six Gods. This would either make Balthazar an ally in the future, against the remainder of the “evil trinity” of GW1, or makes him an enemy of both ourselves and the Five Gods.

This depends on whether Menzies pulled a Grenth on Balthazar (usurping a god without killing him, as Grenth usurped Dhuum), or whether Balthazar pulled an Abaddon (small disagreement with the other gods leading to bigger disagreements leading to all out war).

This whole episode, while forcefully making us enemies with Balthazar, also presented Balthazar as simply apathetic to us. He doesn’t see us as enemies, just as an annoyance trying to stop him. Initially we’re trying to stop him because we don’t trust a mursaat, then there’s no reason why we’re fighting him still except to get back the machine (not really a reason), but once Taimi runs her simulation and confirmed something long hinted at since Season 2, our reason to stop Balthazar was to save the world.

Balthazar, in the end, isn’t a villain. He’s just apathetic, and that apathy risks our very lives. We fight against him not in a showdown of good versus evil (for once in this game), but in a plight for survival.

So I don’t think Balthazar will remain an enemy – and even if he does, I don’t think the remaining Six Gods will be our enemies.

But all the same, I see this not so much as “ending the GW2 dragon arc” but rather “pausing the GW2 dragon arc to restore the GW1 fallen god arc” – it just had a very, very shoddy start.

Primordus’ second aspect was never revealed. His body was very rocky, yes, but that was never said to be his aspect.

Jormag’s weakness was, indeed, proven by Taimi’s experiments (and the simulation she showed us) to be Primordus’ energy. They were polar opposites (unlike, it seems, Mordremoth and Zhaitan based on dialogue about dragon weaknesses). And the machine was shooting Primordus’ energy up to the sky, while dragging Jormag’s energy in – basically, while it was right in front of Primordus, it still struck Jormag’s energy.

The story journal, after completing the instance, says that Taimi had confirmed that Jormag was affected too.

@Ider: Taimi explicitly compares Primordus’ weakness being Jormag, and Jormag’s weakness being Primordus to Mordremoth’s weakness being his mind, so it’s not like the Elder Dragons have two weaknesses like you’re saying, they only have one – it’s just that Primordus and Jormag are each others’ weakness. But this isn’t the case for the others.

Which seems contradictory for what we found in Episode 3 with the Unstable Abomination… Furthermore, Mordremoth couldn’t gain immunity to his weakness by exposing himself to it. If Zhaitan’s magic was Mordremoth’s weakness then absorbing it (if he actually did and Taimi isn’t just wrong about that as well as being able to safely kill Jormag and Primordus), then Mordremoth would have weakened himself by absorbing that magic, just as the Unstable Abomination seemed to have.

He’s unlikely to be in future plots as much as I wish he would be.

He’s basically a plot-forced home instance cat. Yes, he shows up in the home instance after, and you can even ask him about the cats you’ve gathered so far.

@OriOri: Her “I might be wrong” line was about Jormag being put to sleep though, wasn’t it? Not about the whole “kill one more Elder Dragon and the world goes bye bye”.

@maxwelgm: Well, she was proven wrong with her “we can safely kill Primordus and Jormag using their energies!” theory in this episode. Yes, they can kill them that way… but not safely.

What’s odd is that she specified that Mordremoth’s weakness was its mind, while Primordus and Jormag’s weakness are each other, when in episode 3 we had Zhaitan’s and Mordremoth’s energy shown to be a weakness to each other… Which is what she was saying as well. So we’re having some massive contradictions going on here.

Harper.4173:

Do you feel this current iteration of Balthazar stays true to the original? Does the text describe an entity that would use deception and “mercenaries” for his goals?
I would have accepted him being part of the story – but somehow leading Krytans or humans into the fray – not armies of mercenaries from every race.

Yes and no.

At face value, definitely no. But his dialogue shows that something happened to him. Something that created massive backstage character development.

Until we know what that “something” is, we cannot say if this development stays true to “who Balthazar is”.

The Lazarus and mercenary bit is very much… out of place, all the same.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Isn’t that contradictory to what we already know about Elder Dragons? If I recall correctly, an Elder Dragon consumes a lot of magic, then when he has consumed enough goes back to sleep. Over time, the magic he has consumed dissipates, the dragon gets hungry, wakes up and starts eating again.

So shouldn’t draining a lot of magic from Primordus only make him more hungry and aggressive?

That’s the common but false interpretation. What puts the Elder Dragons to sleep isn’t “having consumed enough” but rather “having nothing else to consume”.

We know that in order to wake up, the Elder Dragons need to consume magic to rise. They can only be active when they have sufficient magic.

We also know that corrupting things results in them expunging magic (but twisted), which means when they corrupt they lose magic. So the longer they’re awake, not only are they consuming more magic, but they’re releasing magic too in a manner they want and control.

So when they run out of magic to eat, they’re only releasing magic, which results in their hibernation (where in magic releases at a faster, uncontrolled, pace). When enough magic is released, their re-absorb it (mostly through a “herald” dragon champion – such as The Great Destroyer or Drakkar) which allows them to rise.

So siphoning a lot of magic will put them to sleep, but without reducing magic in the world, they’ll shortly wake back up.

Which means that while Primordus (and possibly Jormag) have been put back to sleep, this won’t be a “10,000 year long hibernation” like before, they’re probably already beginning to take in magic to rise again.

Basically meaning – at least if I’m correct with the above – ArenaNet just put Primordus on the bus so that they can work with non-Elder Dragon plots faster, without killing Primordus (thus allowing them to go back to the Elder Dragon plots when they want to).

Stitch.1794:

Fair enough – I was referring to the full loss of contact since GW1, not physically leaving Tyria in year 0, but I’d never come across Abaddon’s death being the reason behind that. Out of interest do you have a source for that (not doubting you, just intrigued as to what the devs said on the subject)?

Jeff Grubb: The human gods still exist, and their power is still felt within Tyria. However, they have pulled back into the mists, leaving the humans to stand (or fall) on their own merits. There has been a tendency for the human gods to, um, meddle with their worshippers a bit much, and in the wake of the final battle of Abaddon, they have been trying to cut back. Also, the destruction of the big A and his replacement with Kormir in the Pantheon resolved one of their ties with physical contact with Tyria. So there are ties, but you just can’t ring them up to take on the Elder Dragons.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dolyak-Express-Jan-10-2014/page/3#post3545340

Main source for that.

Harper.4173:

First Balthazar is Lazarus. Alright. I don’t get how some things work though.
He’s the human god of war – and yet he’s raising mercenaries from what I could only tell were all five races. Why?
Couldn’t he more easily just reveal himself and lead the people of Kryta?

The mercenary thing is strange, as is the use of non-human forces. As far as I know, this is left unexplained.

But if I’m understanding right, the White Mantle slash mercenaries was going to be his primary method to take on Primordus. But then Taimi Ex Machina came into play and he realized he didn’t need the army so he abandoned it.

Why not just appear in DR and conscript humanity as a whole because he is their god? I honestly am baffled by it too. The only answer I can think of is “he was too weak, and needed to absorb magic from the bloodstone to appear godly in the first place”. He definitely says he’s been weakened by someone.

Harper.4173:

On top of that – are the human gods evil now? Have they renounced their patronage of humans? I found it odd that Balthazar would so easily discard human lives (even while posing as Lazarus).

Balthazar’s actions hold nothing on the other gods. In fact, of all the non-fallen gods, Balthazar had been portrayed as the most volatile of gods, what with the story of Kaolai from Factions.

But Balthazar seems to be more apathetic now rather than evil. He seems to be on a personal vendetta and needs power to go through with it, and he sought that power in the form of bloodstone and elder dragon.

Harper.4173:

As a human player I felt the immediate need to join Balthazar in his quest – and I can’t because GW2’s story is not complex enough to offer race-based branches and “multicultural” enough that I need to be buddy buddy friends with all the other races.
Normally I’d be happy to see such a huge part of GW1 come back to the forefront of the game’s lore but with the way things have been handled recently I have many reasons to fear they’ll just ruin established lore more.

Balthazar’s reveal was definitely done poorly, with everyone immediately taking a historically good guy as a villain immediately. Yes, he lied to the commander, but other than that lie had Balthazar made any attempt to show himself as evil?

No.

Our initial distrust was because he was Lazarus, a mursaat known for betrayal. Knowing that he wasn’t Lazarus just meant he lied to us to gain the White Mantle’s favor for unknown reason, so we had reason to begin trusting him. Instead, the writers just took this as reason to distrust someone who should have been at least somewhat trustworthy.

Wintersday is not a war, just a friendly, family spat. Like a party game.

Though I’ve always been curious about the origins of such, especially given the revelation in GW2 about Grenth being Dwayna’s son.

Walhalla.5473:

So we have an Ex-God on a rampage. Question is, who usurped Balthazar? Menzies? A god doesn’t lose his divinity because he sneezed or due to a visit from Scarlet. It could be that Menzies togerther with his followers was susccessful or some primitives on another world were too warlike and just took his power.

I don’t like that twist that Balthasar was using the Lazarus guise because it feels like a twist for the sake of a twist, even though some of the stuff back then makes a bit more sense now but still it doesn’t really feel… right.

I agree on the Lazarus bit. Balthazar’s return and change of persona in of itself was enough of a plot twist. I would have preferred that Lazarus was actually Lazarus and Balthazar appeared on his own. But what’s done is done.

As to Balthazar being usurped… we’re not really sure that the only way to denounce a god is to usurp him. “They” could refer to a number of groups. But the curious part was the end of the line “they will see me again”. This implies that someone betrayed him – at least in his mind – which in turn implies that it was the Six Gods who revoked his godhood.

Stitch.1794:

Fair enough, but the dragons seems to me by far the most likely explanation, for a couple reasons. Firstly, the timing of the gods retreating is broadly in line with the dragons awakening. Secondly, Balthazar’s determination to see the dragons killed, even if it means destroying Tyria – that came across as a personal vendetta.

The gods left Tyria in Year 0. That is 1078 years before Primordus even began to wake up. There is no “broadly in line”. They only stopped talking in 1075 – three years before Primordus began to wake up.

Furthermore, we were explicitly told, numerous times, by developers, that the Six Gods remained in contact solely because of Abaddon, so with his death they lost all reason to keep communication going. They left to “let humans stand on their own” but also because when they intervene, kitten hits the fan (Bloodstone/gift of magic and the incited wars that followed; the war against Abaddon that turned a sea into a desert and verdant coastline into a toxic wasteland, etc. etc.).

So your first point is definitely not the case.

Secondly, Balthazar never showed interest in killing the Elder Dragons, per se. Yes, that was the pretense for his works as Lazarus, but in the end when his disguise was taken, his goal was shown to be absorbing the Elder Dragons’ magic – this is what he did at the end. He merely thought that Tyria’s destruction was inconsequential, so long as he got that magic in the process. He no longer cared about the humans for some reason.

I do agree that there’s a personal vendetta going on, but it is not against the dragons. “They abated me, they dimmed my light… But now they will see me again” implies that magic was taken from him, and to take revenge he needs magic. Magic he hadn’t gotten yet by the time he said this – which he had gotten magic from the bloodstone, but he was still taking magic from the Elder Dragons at the time.

He needs magic to do what he wants to do. Now he has that magic, so now we’ll see his true goal, and who “they” are.

Killing the Elder Dragons wasn’t the end. They were the means. A means we stopped, but not before he got what he wanted (presumably – he may go after them again, or after the other bloodstones, to absorb more magic).

Taimi did explicitly say that, yes. The whole fight at the end was to prevent _one_ Elder Dragon's death, not two.

So… spoilers obviously, but my review:

The main thing you’re confused about, OP, is twofold:

Firstly, you think that we’ve been trying to get the two dragons to directly attack each other. This is false – Taimi’s device, as shown in this episode, was to siphon the energies from the Elder Dragons and exchange them, paralyzing and killing the two Elder Dragons.

Secondly, the killing would be simultaneous. If any Elder Dragon were to absorb their magic, it’d be Kralkatorrik and the DSD. Which by Taimi’s theory are opposites so she was just going to use the machine on those two next.

But this wouldn’t work for reasons Taimi brings up in this episode.

They do not have telepathy or a hive mind, so no. Ogden has no clue what has happened to the dwarves. We know Primordus has been moving around for the past 200 years (we were told by devs before the game launched), and we know that there’s been zero contact with the underground dwarves. We’ve had heavy hints that the dwarves had been wiped out for years since Edge of Destiny came out.

No lore hole, you’re just complaining to complain at the moment.

And Ogden’s “race’s duty” is to kill the dragons, this is why he’s been helping the Durmand Priory in fighting the Elder Dragons. He’s just using his head instead of his hammer, unlike other dwarves who underwent the ritual.

Sublimatio.6981:

Amaimon, it is THE real balthazar. he explicitly said the other gods dimmed his light.

He said “they”. With no context of what “they” refers to.

Sublimatio.6981:

Amaimon.7823:

Sublimatio.6981:

for the record, canon-wise mordremoth was the most destructive dragon

based on what? his tendrils tearing forts apart? all dragons do that

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Summit_Invitations#At_Stonewright_Steading

quote: “Exactly. Right now, Mordremoth is wreaking the most damage upon Tyria.”

That’s just saying Mordremoth is making the most damage at the current moment (which was true, since the others were inactive), not that it’s the most destructive dragon.

Stitch.1794:

Balthazar has a line of dialog that suggests he has been weakened by the dragons (can’t remember it exactly and it’s not been added to the wiki yet). Otherwise there’s no reason we should have had any chance in the first or last instances.

Again, he says THEY, with zero context as to who “they” refer to. We don’t know who or what weakened Balthazar, just that he was.

Amaimon.7823:

okay.. hold up.. ten.. no .. hundred steps back..
like.. all the way down the volcano, back to the submarine, back to rata sum.. steps back..

Did we just put the strongest, most violent, and most destructive dragon back to sleep?
We just ended it’s cycle..

what?

I mean, I get the story didn’t want us to kill it.. but all the hype from GW1, all the hype from GW2, and the first time we see the elder dragon is when he goes back to sleep?
And we don’t even get to see Jormag, just Taimi saying “And Jormag propably as well”

..

what?

It rather makes sense. The entire fight was showing Jormag’s and Primordus’ energies going at each other. The entire purpose of the machine was, of course, to kill the two Elder Dragons simultaneously. Balthazar injecting himself in that prevented their death, but enough of their magic was drained as to put them to sleep (akin to what happened when the Bloodstone was originally made).

A little fast paced, but that’s what happened.

Also, Primordus isn’t “the most destructive” dragon. He’s actually been the least destructive dragon in terms of his actions and influence on the races. He’s just been awake the longest thus should be “the most powerful”.

Jormag and Mordremoth have proven to be the two most destructive dragons.

Nick.6972:

It gets better. Apparently, the fact that we barely took down a weakened human god in GW1 – Abaddon, doesn’t matter anymore. Screw that. Out heroes are capable of soloing Balthazar. Wonderful continuity.

Based on his dailogue, Balthazar was also weakened – perhaps far more so than Abaddon was. It took the gift of the other gods to defeat Abaddon, while he was chained, and though weakened he was near back to his original power (and never lost his divinity either).

Balthazar says “They abated me, they dimmed my light… but now they will see me.”

For non-English users, to abate something means to weaken or make less intense. So Balthazar was weakened. “Dimmed my light” – godhood results in blinding those who look upon them.

Balthazar just told us he lost his divinity.

And we didn’t defeat him, we just defeated his two hounds, using the Elder Dragons’ energies. Balthazar is still alive, having absorbed not only a bloodstone’s magic, but enough of two Elder Dragons’ magic that they were put back to sleep.

Or at least, one Elder Dragon’s magic that it was put back to sleep. We’re not sure Jormag is asleep.

Or how long they’ll be asleep.

We may find out that their champions quickly raise them up again with so much magic in the world.

Amaimon.7823:

TBF, I never considered those arms to be even remotely insectoid, I just thought they were dried up bone or demonic limbs

Torment Claws are 100% insectoid. They have a clear exoskeleton and very insectoid fiber hairs on them.

You’re probably thinking of Smothering Tendrils which are a more fleshy bone-and-sinew larger version.

While I’d agree at first glance, the same model is used for Arachnia Plateau and the giant immobile but breathing spider found in Nightfallen Jahai (wiki doesn’t seem to have an image of it, but it’s located where you end the quest They Only Come Out at Night ). They definitely seem to be a more demonic form of giant spider legs.

Inc.4753:

While I agree that there is some merit to the ‘Lazarus=Lazarus’ theory based on the recovered journals, there are several things that, to me, make this very unlikely:
- The way the PC reacts, without any doubt.
- The way the Story Journal describes the Confessor’s End instance (“Evidence scattered around the manor confirmed our suspicions that the being we know as Lazarus is an imposter…but who is he?”).
- The way the teaser trailer focuses on the issue.

I personally feel it could just as well be a soul that has taken possession of Lazarus’ body at the moment of resurrection, but that is just as much a guess as all the other theories out there.

-You have to keep in mind that the PC doesn’t know what we know about Lazarus in GW1. Their knowledge is, at best, coming from the letters. However, given that the PC doesn’t even question Caudecus’ journal indicates that the main plot does not involve the PC reading the journals in Bloodstone Fen or the letters to Caudecus by Bauer.
- That doesn’t really say much, since it ignores/forgets the journals in Bloodstone Fen. And even then, neither the journals nor the letters talk about Lazarus appearing in the full flesh before Justiciar Naveed in 1078 AE in order to retrieve his final aspect.
- This could just be akin to sylvari reveal situation, where so many people had figured it out (though there were plenty of evidence arguing otherwise), but ArenaNet still up-played the reveal to such heights.

Honestly, I think Kasmeer’s reaction is about something Lazarus does – something his goal relates to. A recent, 99.99% likely, fake release yesterday about a part of the expansion is the return of the mursaat race; if that holds any amount of water, then the mursaat returning in numbers thanks to Lazarus (which certainly would be a “virtuous pursuit” of his) would definitely give that kind of reaction. Just one potential example.

Amaimon.7823:

If you want to attain a connection between spiders and Abaddon.. other than the Dryders.. there’s no connection.. at all also, spiders are 8, not 6

You forgot about Tormented Claws, which are basically giant spider legs. Those are a closer tie than the dryders, which were servants of Dhuum being “lent” to Abaddon by Dhuum’s emissaries.

But even the torment claws might have been “lent forces”, offered by the Dreadspawn Maw.

Like castlemaniac said, making a horse model wound’t be as simple as taking the centaur model and changing the human part to a horse head and removing clothing. While such could be done, it’d take just about as much work as to make a horse from scrap.

And even making a single model is not so simple as Alga.6498 is making it out to be for something as complex as an animal.

Granted, making a horse wouldn’t be that much harder than making a cow, but making both a horse and a cow is basically doubling workload. Trying to make every bit of wildlife would be about a hundred times the workload, and we’re not talking about a single day’s workload being exemplified – we’re talking multiple people spending multiple days minimum.

Plus, if they did that, without expanding the size of game maps, they’d be making every single model they make so rare as to make their worth of making the models not worth the effort. It’s natural that they’d cut some over others.

And horses have more reason to be cut then other animals, due to certain “controversial” topics in this community.

That’s true for Rox and Canach too, but they still left the PC leaving them immediately isolated, just as Marjory, Rytlock, and Braham did (with or without their consent).

It really feels to me like they’re trying to isolate the PC in the story, perhaps to build up for something. If I had to guess, I’d say that something was related to Aurene and her growing into an Elder Dragon (we’ve already exhibited some signs that imply corruption – Aurene granting us magic in Prized Possessions, the PC immediately knowing Aurene’s name, and the PC’s comment of “I’m at Aurene’s disposal.” during Precocious Aurene seem to me like subtle beginnings of corruption, like early stages of Reaper indoctrination).

The Mists is literally a multiverse with dozens if not thousands of inhabitable planets. The Harbinger of Woe is based in The Mists, and iirc from the mysterious hint in the update notes, is more tied to exploring The Mists (read: the multiverse) than Tyria.

The All, however, is literally just Tyria and its connection to six bodies of power – not the Elder Dragons, but bodies of power which the Elder Dragons are directly tied to; Jotun claim they are stars, while a norn Priory scholar believes them to be spirit realms, ultimately it’s still unknown what those six orbs represent but it’s not the Elder Dragons (directly).

This said, the Harbinger of Woe’s texture is likely just a cataclysmic event in space with no meaning, showing a cataclysmic event because of its name and intended meaning (a foreteller of misery and general bad times). But if it does, then the Harbinger’s lore can very easily go well beyond Tyria and into other things.

I also want to specify that the texture features one planet, not two, as the first few posts believe. As seen here. That one planet, however, had split in half.

If I were to theorize what that planet could be were it tied to lore… I’d say the human homeworld.

We’ve long had reason to believe that the Six Gods, Forgotten, and humans (perhaps even more) had escaped some cataclysmic event. Most of the hints come from this object in Malchor’s Leap – specifically the following lines:

• “She chose Tyria and brought with her those who would make this world a paradise. As she had promised, Dwayna led her people to peace.” – In of itself not very telling, but Dwayna brought humans to make a paradise slash peaceful world tells us one very important thing right away: Where the Six and humans came from was not peaceful.
• “Balthazar came in fire and wrath, carrying the head of his father and leading his fierce hounds, Temar and Tegon. He swept Orr with a cleansing flame.” – While the nature of Balthazar’s father’s death is unclear, this shows there was indeed strife – enough strife that caused the death of a god’s father. It could be that Balthazar killed his father and carries his head in triumph, or that his father was killed by another and Balthazar carries his head in an unusually grim show of remorse (we don’t really know the manner of carrying either, I’d note).
• “The two who are one, Issa and Lys,[sic] brought with her the hope and beauty of humanity. While the other gods focused on building Arah and beginning a new future, Lyssa gave them joy and helped them forget the past.” – This is the first truly telling line… who is Lyssa helping to forget the past? The humans, or the other gods? And why does she need to do so and to give them joy? What was so horrible in the past, that people were saddened by it and were better off not knowing?
• “Among them was Abaddon—once secret-keeper, now betrayer. How you have fallen from the glorious days of old. What passed beyond in the Mists, only you remember.” – Most telling is this… Abaddon remembers what was forgotten… This may be referring to the line about Lyssa, and what she helped others forget. If so, then what Lyssa helped others forget, even the other Six do not remember, and happened on another world.

If these lines all talk of the same thing, which given the same source is not unfound, then this tell us that something happened to the homeworld, something that caused the death of those close to the gods and led them to leave that world, something that was full of strife, and that was so painful even the gods could not bear to remember it. And the one who did remember it, fell to evil deeds eventually…

All that said, however, I want to stress something folks keep forgetting: ArenaNet had stated that the fractal storyline is parallel but separate from the Living World/main storyline. Meaning that Arkk and the Harbinger of Woe (if there is indeed any lore to the Harbinger) is not going to be tied to the events that happen in Tyria (at least not for a while / not directly).

Same can be said for the raid storylines, they run parallel but part of (though definitely sometimes tied to) the Living World/expansion storyline.

Edit: And to specify on the necroing post:

There is definitely a theme established with Season 3 of the PC being alienated, thus “downing in doubt”, but I don’t think this is directly tied to the fight against the Elder Dragons so much as how all their allies and friends are being stripped away from them (Rox, Canach, Logan, and Braham left of their own will; Caithe, and possibly Marjory, became untrustworthy; Rytlock was taken away; Eir and Trahearne were killed and Zojja is indisposed still).

Only named horse, but far from only known.

cptaylor.2670:

Not sure why Lazarus wouldn’t be able to teleport if Mursaat are able to phase themselves in and out. Seems like teleporting within the same realm would be cake at that point.

Honestly, it likely depends on what “phasing themselves out of reality” means from a technical standpoint, and if Lazarus is actually a mursaat or not. And there’s bound to be limitations on this teleportation, otherwise they’d have never needed these to invade the Southern Shiverpeaks in GW1. Of course, with the power of a bloodstone at hand, who knows what more he could do than mursaat, real or fake.

cptaylor.2670:

Still don’t think Lazarus is really trying to get back to Ember Bay though. He seems like he’s going for whatever machine that is, probably Omaad’s, in that screenshot. What he plans to do with, I have no clue. But whoever this is, if not an ally, is clearly out for power. And I would expect a machine that allows you to view or potentially alter things within the eternal alchemy to be a key to obtaining even more power.

Not sure about the power bit, but I agree with the rest.

Ider.1276:

There are long range teleportations. In lake Doric we can see watchwork knights teleporting in and out to fight champion jades via mesmer magic. As we don’t see any watchknights stationed in Doric, it is logical to presume that they are teleported from Divinity Reach. So teleports without any kind of beacons over (minimum) several miles away are possible to powerful mesmers.

When I say “long range” I’m thinking trans-regional. My mind was on the discussion of him going for Abaddon’s Mouth bloodstone and the idea of “why not just teleport there” as a concept. If he wanted to go there, then using an asura gate that goes nearby is certainly a shortcut, giving reason to go to Rata Novus – or Rata Sum, or Salvation Pass for that matter.

cptaylor.2670:

If the pact commander knows the disguise is false, and even one of these spies hears THAT rumor, then the plan is automatically botched.

That is my point.

Sure, I could see that, but wouldn’t the fact that Lazarus’ revival failed in of itself “automatically botch” the plan by your argument?

Not only for those who know about switching the relic spreading such information, but those who performed the ritual to revive Lazarus, had any survived the time period (neither Caudecus nor “Lazarus” could have predicted the raid group’s success against Xera so accurately, and it’d be hard to predict the group of mercenaries (as called in-game) even assaulting the Stronghold of the Faithful in the first place).

And for that matter, who among our allies would know of a highly secretive ritual performed by the higher echelons of the White Mantle? I suppose E and Anise might, but could they also know that the ritual failed and react within a matter of days to perform such a plot (according to the journals, Bauer’s “supreme leader” with “virtuous pursuits” arrived in the area in 2 Zephyr, but Matthias died “recently” per a journal on 13 Zephyr, indicating that whomever “Lazarus” is had been working on the plan since shortly before raid wing 2 happened).

Though thinking of it, that kind of implies that “Lazarus” had been around before the ritual was even attempted, let alone interrupted, giving much more credence to him being a fake. But still, who could have predicted, allied or not, that a group of mercenaries would cease the ritual thus giving an unknown air to the White Mantle as to whether or not Lazarus lives?

This implies that the plan only needed to last long enough to absorb the bloodstone, and anything after that was just taking advantage of new situations.

cptaylor.2670:

As far as Rata Novus being on fire or whatever you mentioned in one of your posts, who is to say that Primordus minions aren’t wreaking havoc in the labs and that’s who they’re referring to when they say, “He’s trapped us here.”

Maybe, but given the lack of gender to all destroyers, the line is unlikely to refer to a destroyer lieutenant over Lazarus.

Plus [there’s this image](http://massivelyop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/LW3_E5_Teaser_021-1024x576.jpg) which is definitely made to make it like Lazarus is attacking.

cptaylor.2670:

You mention Lazarus looks menacing, but all we see is a split second of Lazarus looking down, him slightly balling up his fist for a second, and him moving towards someone with his mask on that doesn’t even have a facial expression. So how is someone menacing when we can’t even see a facial expression?

Erm, being menacing is not just a facial expression… its entire body movement. Lazarus’ slow glide while looking down on others is definitely such, but so is him before that purple crystal spell with Kasmeer and Marjory on the other side of said spell. Then there’s this image, which shows him before the PC and others.

Granted, Lazarus’ very posture is innately menacing to be truthful.

cptaylor.2670:

Also, does it ever say how Lazarus is able to bypass the Exalted security to get into Aurene’s chamber? I guess that’s kind of irrelevant given that primordus minions got in though.

The barrier was keeping everyone in, but when the destroyers show up even Marjory and Caithe are fighting inside the chamber (just not in the middle with you, as you can see during the mission).
But what went wrong was never addressed.

cptaylor.2670:

It’s obvious that whatever I say, you’re hell bent on disagreeing, as you do in pretty much every forum that isn’t yours.

So, sure. Whatever your theory is, is correct. I have no idea what your theory is, but it’s absolutely 100% correct and you know everything.

Done.

Hey man, if you can give me a reasonable explanation for why an established ally of the Pact Commander would lie to the Pact Commander (where said lie would result in the Pact Commander fighting against said established ally) while the two are in solitude, while still being an ally to the Pact Commander, then I’ll consider it plausible.

But no one has. It’s just a bunch of “OH MAN WOULDN’T IT BE COOL IF LAZARUS WAS ACTUALLY THIS GUYOHMANOHMANOHMANIT’DBESWEET!”

And in all honesty… no, it would not be sweet. It’d make no bloody sense is what it’d be.

Amaimon.7823:

My argument for that was that eh wants the portal to Ember Bay

Three things though:

Firstly, why though? If his goal was simply “get to Ember Bay”, why not just float over to Ember Bay? It’s been months since he’s been in Auric Basin, he could have simply “walked” over there by now – if not used White Mantle obtained methods of transport.

Secondly, the trailer shows him facing away from the asura gate. So if anything, he’d have been coming from that gate (unless he went towards it then turned away, such as if he was chasing someone out of Rata Novus).

And thirdly, isn’t that the asura gate in the dragon lab? Ergo, the one going into further Rata Novus, not Ember Bay.

And most importantly, the gate we take to Ember Bay actually has at minimum three destinations: Rata Novus Command Center, Rata Sum, and Ember Bay, so even if he was going after the one we take to Ember Bay, nothing says it is still linked to Ember Bay.

castlemanic.3198:

Sephas.8793:

Think of it this way folks, the “teleporting” that Lazarus does could be nothing more than becoming invisible, and moving about and coming out in another location. Have we seen him actually blink from one point to another? He could simply going out of phase with Tyria (as Mursaat have done) and moving from one point to another.

Yes we have seen Lazarus teleport between locations instantly. He teleports more than once in Dragon Vigil within our line of sight, and more importantly it’s instantaneous teleportation between two different spots in the same room, so it’s literally impossible for,it to have just been Lazarus slipping between worlds and coming back, and each,time he teleports, there’s the same flash of light as when he first,shows up in that,mission. So yes, we have very definite proof that Lazarus can indeed teleport.

To be fair, there are a lot of short-ranged teleportation spells out there.

But long ranged ones are much more uncommon (if even possible without devices such as the mursaat teleporters, asura gates, exalted teleporters, etc.). We’re not sure if Lazarus would be capable of long-range teleportation. Though given how much magic he has, I wouldn’t doubt it.

Stitch.1794:

Do we know for sure which supreme leader Bauer is referring to, as it could be Caudecus or Lazarus. If the former, then first known sighting of Lazarus is after the bloodstone exploded, and the artifacts from a failed ritual could still have been in close enough proximity at the time.

It’s not Caudecus, because he didn’t show up in Bloodstone Fen until after the explosion (per Canach in Confessor’s End), and in that journal Bauer never calls Caudecus “supreme leader” despite referring to him in name and title (Confessor).

Bauer also talks about virtuous pursuits, just as Lazarus does, when talking about the supreme leader and “his plans”.

Stitch.1794:

(On a side note, you’ve missed one risen mesmer that appears living: Lord Kitah)

Ah right, Kitah also uses illusions to make himself and all the risen thralls in his manse look alive.

For a very, very short time. And not one is done convincingly in terms of persona (they just repeat the same lines over and over – perhaps a mock on traditional NPC dialogue).

Still no different from the other risen, though, where their persona prevents a long-term disguise. Not just Labwan, but the other risen mesmers disguising as vigil members too.

Besides, making Lazarus “just another dragon champion” would be boring as hell since it make every single majory storyline villain tied to the Elder Dragons.

Sublimatio.6981:

That’s exactly my point, she had a different goal in mind. We can’t just assume the obvious when thinking about Lazarus’s motivation – there might be something we don’t know about that makes him not focused on Aurene for the time being.

The suggested goal which I disagreed with was “kill or corrupt Aurene” so you’re not exactly disagreeing with me.

Stitch.1794:

You actually said none could look like a living being, not very few, which is why I thought you’d overlooked Labwan.

Labwan doesn’t look like a living being, she is very much rotten – though there are mesmers (and not just Labwan – we see five in total; Labwan, the High Priestess of Lyssa in Arah, and three generic risen wraiths during Battle for Fort Trinity) who take the illusionary guise of another person. But they were all mesmers, unlike Lazarus, and those disguises were very short lived and, more importantly, not that deceptive (everyone in Syska’s party knew something was odd about her immediately, so she got rid of them).

None of them were capable of deception longer than a few minutes.

Stitch.1794:

Agreed, with one possible exception – Aurene could make a powerful lieutenant if allowed to mature before being corrupted (if she is even capable of being corrupted).

Was going to say the latter. We’ve not yet seen reason to believe that purified dragon minions can be re-corrupted. Even the sylvari-turned-Mordrem Guard were converted, not corrupted.

But then there’s what drax said: why let it out of your control and give it the chance to become a major threat?

Stitch.1794:

I had a bizarre thought along those lines – large concentrations of unbound magic cause anomalies to form. Could an anomaly formed from the bloodstone explosion, and became somehow fused with the 4 aspects of Lazarus that were present, resulting in a sentient anomaly that looks like Lazarus, and even thinks it is Lazarus? Since then, it’s been drawn towards the nearest concentrations of ley energy – first to Tarir, and then to Rata Novus.

You’re combining two separate events. The ritual to revive Lazarus with the four artifacts was performed in the Twisted Castle – the final room in the third raid wing. The Bloodstone explosion happened days later, after Bauer had written about his “supreme leader” arriving in secret.

Sublimatio.6981:

As for Aurene,
a) we were literally between him and Aurene and threatening to kill him (with help of the Luminate among others in close proximity) if he tries to do anything to Aurene.
b) he wanted us to believe him so it’s obvious he has a bigger agenda than mindlessly killing Aurene on spot. Did Labwan kill us when she was disguised as Syska? No, because she had another agenda.

a) We were also facing off dozens of destroyers who were directly after our goal, and we could not defeat the destroyers without Lazarus’ help. So if Lazarus wanted to kill Aurene, that was the best time. Furthermore, why hold back then, but then go after us in Rata Novus later? Unless he secretly got another power boost, the situation’s worse off for him now.
b) Labwan didn’t want us dead in the first place. She wanted the Pact destroyed. Killing the leaders wouldn’t outright destroy the Pact. If she wanted us dead, she would have had us sent into a ambush, like she did her team mates who she did want dead, rather than set up us to kill a bunch of Vigil soldiers.

Narcemus.1348:

Actually, since it was destroyers attacking Aurene it might have been in Kralkatorrik’s best interest of only to make sure that Primordus doesn’t get get her magic, or her as a minion. Not that I back this theory, just playing devil’s advocate.

Probable. But what would stop “branded champion Lazarus” from absorbing that magic if he were there when Aurene was killed?

Amaimon.7823:

As for why we see him in Rata Novus, obviously, if he’s moving past Rata Novus then we intercept him there. He’ll deliver us a fatal defeat, kasmeer is shocked that it’s her alter-ego from another time (thats a joke, please don’t hammer on it like you usually do) and he’ll continue south.

There is no need for Lazarus to literally pass through a deeply underground city when he’s on the surface. So why would he – as we see in the trailer – enter Rata Novus through the same method that Canach did in episode 1?

And I actually made that alter ego joke a couple days ago so how can I not skyhammer on it. :P

Amaimon.7823:

I cannot think of a reason though why Lazarus, fake or real, would go to or through Rata Novus with the intent of stopping there.

So why were you arguing that he would go through Rata Novus? Instead of just crossing the surface dozens or hundreds of feet above Rata Novus?

And I think Omadd’s Machine / Taimi’s research is a pretty good reason – the articles mention that she’s made a machine to one-shot the remaining Elder Dragons, so that’s probably what the Scruffy lookalike is (rather than Omadd’s Machine). Or just killing the individuals who pose the biggest threat to his plans (read: Dragon’s Watch).

perilisk.1874:

Maybe because they see how often the PC has been tricked or done idiotic things before, and didn’t want their cover blown?

The GW2 PC hasn’t been tricked that much, and honestly if “Lazarus” was a good guy but not Lazarus, then the idiotic thing would be to oppose “Lazarus”, which “Lazarus” guarantees to make happen by not revealing themselves in total isolation.

perilisk.1874:

The only legitimate reasons to pretend to be Mursaat are
1) Gain the WM as henchmen — and possibly use them as a puppet government after conquering Kryta (in which case “Lazarus” could be anyone, including a dragon champion, fallen god, Palawa Joko, or just a power-hungry human).
2) Provoke a schism in the WM before they go on the offensive against Kryta (which would suggest a pro-regime character like Jenna, Anise, Livia, etc.)
In either case, it suggests the key motivation is the crown of Kryta.

If Caudecus is to be believed, then “Lazarus” sent the White Mantle to fight the Elder Dragons, which could mean he was just sacrificing them for the sake of appearing good and he doesn’t need any of the White Mantle. Just another possibility.

perilisk.1874:

The other question/clue is who exactly could survive exposure to so much magic without being destroyed, much less going insane?

Anyone who has a Shadowstone, and we know the White Mantle had spies in the Durmand Priory.

cptaylor.2670:

Is Dragon Vigil the one with Aurene? Because we hadn’t finished dealing with the White Mantle at that point.

But there were no White Mantle anywhere near there. So that wouldn’t have mattered. There was no one but the Pact Commander and four very trusted allies (Marjory, Caithe, Luminate, and Ruka).

cptaylor.2670:

And just because we’ve slain elder dragons and are known heroes, doesn’t mean that we’re automatically granted access to some secret plan the queen may have in the works to deal with the White Mantle, if she even had anything to do with it and not fully Anise if Anise is Livia.

But whatever secret plan there may be, setting the Pact Commander as a potential if not definite opponent to the disguise would wreck the plan up. The fact we’ve slain Elder Dragons is proof the PC can do the impossible.

cptaylor.2670:

And nothing about this trailer specifies that we’re talking about Lazarus as the evil that threatens Kryta. We ASSUME it is, and it focuses on Lazarus with him “trapping” Kasmeer and Marjory in the dragon lab, but we also have two elder dragons threatening us at the same time. The trailer may serve to push us towards confirming that Lazarus is evil, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that’s where it’s going.

Rata Novus is in flames, Lazarus looks upon our allies as menacing as he traps them there. And there are lines talking about Lazarus’ evil actions.

If that’s not the trailer specifying that Lazarus is evil, then that’s one hell of a well done red herring.

Ider.1276:

Well, in Ep.4 trailer there was a human noble with a passionate speech, and the trailer depicted him as a patriotic royalist. People even speculated on the forum that it is lord Faren’s new model or something like this.
Then Ep.4 releases, and we see that noble was pro White Mantle and that speech confronted queen Jennah’s decision to disband the parlament.

He wasn’t pro-White Mantle. He was just anti-totalitarian, which is what Jennah was threatening in order to draw out the White Mantle. Which is exactly what his speech was about. He was still a patriotic royalist, he just wasn’t an extremist royalist.

Amaimon.7823:

EGG-XACTLY! *that’s why I said it’s ‘a’ scene and not ‘the’ scene. Remember that Living World 3 chapters come with a new map AND more than 1 instance? oh right, I already said that, you just don’t read my posts and repeat the same argument until I agree with you…

You… completely missed my point it seems.

The trailer shows that Lazarus is not simply going past Rata Novus, (as you suggested) but rather that Lazarus is going to Rata Novus itself.

Furthermore, the other scenes were of a completely non-volcanic location, and not only that, a completely new location. That means that the new map is non-volcanic.

Amaimon.7823:

And if Lazarus is not the real Lazarus, but an imposter, what reason he have NOT to go for the next bloodstone?

There’s an infinite number of answers for that – for example, “he doesn’t need to, nor want to bother” or even “maybe he cannot reach the Ring of Fire for some reason” – but a limited number of answers for the question: “What reason does he have to go to the next bloodstone?”

Amaimon.7823:

The real lazarus would’ve contempted to one bloodstone to restore his power.

Says who?

Amaimon.7823:

The fake Lazarus never needed that, so obviously he ate the first out of greed/gluttony and then held our survival as a guilt trip.

Says who?

Who says that he consumed the Maguuma Bloodstone out of megalomania? Maybe he was telling the truth in Dragon Vigil about him doing it so that it wouldn’t destroy Tyria – after all, from the journals found in Bloodstone Fen, wek now that thanks to the White Mantle’s activity over the past decade (long before Caudecus was confessor), the Bloodstone was going to explode eventually – Lazarus just kickstarted it. If he instead ordered for the bloodstone to be left alone, it might have been decades before it exploded but it would still have exploded.

Maybe whatever plans he has requires the Maguuma Jungle and Kryta to not be a smoldering crater.

I was actually very much thinking of Labwan when I said very few dragon minions. Labwan is literally a sole situation that is a very odd outlier. But even then, every single action that Labwan took was a direct benefit for Zhaitan.

Lazarus giving Aurene as an egg to the master of peace, or defending Aurene from destroyers, is not only non-beneficial to Kralkatorrik, but harmful to Kralkatorrik.

Sublimatio.6981:

My theory is Lazarus is an agent of the elders dragons, a champion. I suspect it’s Gleam who has been recently corrupted (maybe by kralkatorrik). Assuming he gave the egg to Master of Peace, that would explain how he knew where the egg is + knows Tyria’s history, he also worked with Ogden). We still need to consider the fact, whoever it is it absorbed most of the maguuma bloodstone’s magic and a dragon fits perfectly for that role.

Aurene would be Kralkatorrik’s enemy, so if Lazarus was a dragon minion (makes no sense as there’s very very few dragon minions that autonomous and even those who are, none look like a normal living being), so why would he give away a purified egg of a dragon that could potentially become an Elder Dragon and therefore a great threat and rival to food source?

ugrakarma.9416:

By the reaction of Kasmeer in the trailer it seems to me that it is somebody.

1-someone she hoped was missing or dead.
2-Someone who is bad.

Anyway it is very reduvious, if the person behind lazarus, is someone bad that supposed to be dead, why not himself? I find the development of this mystery very weak.

This doesn’t make sense on two accounts.

Firstly, everyone’s assuming Kasmeer’s reaction is to Lazarus’ identity. There’s going to be much more discussed than just that in this episode, just as there always is in every episode. While the trailer definitely made it seem like its a reaction to Lazarus’ identity, we don’t really have reason to believe such.

Secondly, and far more importantly, everyone is assuming Lazarus is evil. So why would his identity being a known bad guy surprise Kasmeer at all? It’d be the most predictable thing to the characters. At this point, the characters would be more surprised that it really is Lazarus because of the huge heavy handed assumption that the PC makes due to Caudecus’ journal (and because now it’s the PC’s turn to handle the idiot ball).

We actually have no reason to believe that “a regular elemental can take on any random shape”.

The vast majority of all elementals are humanoid. In GW1, the only non-humanoid elementals were the crags, roaring ethers (and those sharing the models) and the stalagmite – Crystal Spiders too, arguably, but honestly I’d list them as branded given current knowledge.

In GW2, all standard ice, fire, and earth elementals are humanoid; even greater earth elementals take on humanoid arms.

Regardless of the element – whether ice, fire, sand, crystal, or rock and soil – the vast majority of elementals take on a humanoid shape.

And this is including when ArenaNet did make multiple models for the same kind of elemental – we have at least three different ice elemental models throughout GW1 (two being humanoid). Just take a look through this list.

If they’re not humanoid/bipedal, there’s a strong chance of them being quadpedal.

Plus, when we get to when people who are unfamiliar find titans, they do not call them elementals. In Defend North Kryta Province in GW1, Greywind says this about his first encounter with titans:

Captain Greywind: Thank the gods, it’s you! We were out scavenging for goods when a massive beast crossed our path, we lost many settlers to it before we managed to escape. The creature seems to have found more of its kind and they are not far behind.

He never even considers calling it an elemental.

Stitch.1794:

I wasn’t suggested he was a good guy, instead that he’s someone with designs on Aurene. The why – Aurene is potentially very powerful, so could be a plan to end up in control of her, or perhaps the plan is to fatten her up with more magic to kill later for a magical feast, given this is someone who managed to absord the bloodstone’s magic. The how & when – well, you could ask those questions on any theory behind Lazarus, that neither proves nor disproves anything.

However, both Randulf and I have already expressed doubts there’s more to this than the two scenes felt similar.

The why, how, and when was more about Lazarus pretending to be someone that Marjory and Kasmeer knew who also happened to be the one to give the Master of Peace the egg.

That seems an awfully contrived connection.

The trailer is 100% showing Rata Novus from numerous perspectives. I recognize the stairway. It’s just outside the Dragon Lab room, and inside the dragon lab room too (for the asura gate shot).

Quora Sum is one of the “six great underground citadel cities” of the asura that were overrun by Primordus and the destroyers when the Elder Dragon rose and forced the asura back to the surface after they attempted resettling the depths with the Great Destroyer’s death (Central Transfer Chamber was another such “great citadel city”). After 200 years, it’d be a molten mess by now.

Amaimon.7823:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Amaimon.7823:

But my original prediction: Lazarus is going for the Maw of Abaddon next > EXTREMELY LIKELY!

Er… how is this extremely likely? We see the new map there, starting at 0:38, and it is green. Vigil are present, and dinorsaurs too, but most importantly: it is green.

That’s Heart of Maguuma plants too.

it’s one scene, not THE scene. Remember that living stories take place in more than 1 instance. Taimi says the mursaat is coming closer. She can propably see him on that big leyline map since he’s literally a living bloodstone now. Lazarus is propably gliding past Rata Novus on his way to the volcanic isles.

We see multiple images and shots in the trailer that shows Lazarus inside Rata Novus – very clearly so, in fact. So… wrong.

And there’s no scene, no image, nothing that shows volcanic anything in the entire trailer. Yes, there are destroyers, but we saw those green destroyers in Tarir in episode 2, and destroyers in general are across Tyria. So that’s not saying anything about the Ring of Fire there.

UnbentMars.9126:

If they are going underground in the Ring of Fire, Lazarus may be going for the lost Scepter of Orr

The Scepter of Orr is not at the Ring of Fire islands. Besides the fact it got teleported away at the end of Prophecies, Livia had located it after GW1 and held it for a time. Where it is now is unknown, but likely in some royal vault in Kryta.

cptaylor.2670:

While I don’t believe it’s Anise, it does seem rather strange that we get this https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soul_Battery_Fragment from Anise during the making of H.O.P.E.

Why has she been holding onto an object like this for so long? And where did she get it from?

She’s the leader of the Shining Blade, who are actively fighting the White Mantle. It’s not unusual for them to have captured some mursaat relics, and she would have ready access to all of such things.

cptaylor.2670:

Could it stand to reason that Anise is Livia and may also be Lazarus. If this is the case, it would explain why Kasmeer is so shocked. And technically, we can’t really tell from the trailer whether or not Lazarus is confirmed against us. Only that he trapped us in Rata Novus. But did he trap us to reveal his true identity because we are already on edge about the fact that we know they are most likely an impersonator.

It’s all a bit of a stretch but would be pretty fascinating and tie up a lot of loose lore ends.

Here’s a problem with that – and indeed every “Lazarus is actually our old time ally xyz” theory:

Why would Lazarus lie to us during Dragon Vigil? What would that person gain from pretending – even before absorbing the bloodstone’s magic – to be a mursaat, the most hated of hated species in the world, in front of the Pact Commander who has slain Elder Dragons when we’re actually friends with that person already?

Rather than the long-winded speech we got during Dragon Vigil, they could have shown up as Lazarus, decloaked or whatever, and revealed their true self thus avoiding all and any conflict with us.

Except this trailer and the articles about the release clearly shows Lazarus as an enemy. So we know that whoever he is… he is no ally.

To what point?

As brought up in the other Lazarus identity thread, why hide his identity to the PC during Dragon Vigil if he were a good guy (like the guy who gave the Master of Peace the egg)?

And if he were impersonating the guy who gave the egg, then how and when and why?

Plus, Marjory and Kasmeer’s reaction had always been more about the egg, rather than the mysterious voice. Remember that Hidden Arcana was the first time we heard about the egg beyond the mysterious vision from the Pale Tree.

After all, after the vision of the MoP getting the egg, Marjory asks “What… was… that?” Note: What was that, not who was that. So the exclamation is more towards the vision and/or the egg, not the voice.

TBH, would be weird as hell to bring in a literally inconsequential, never seen before, rarely mentioned, almost-copy-of-Saul individual.

It might as well be one of Marjory’s other sisters (there were three sisters, iirc, one’s dead and two unaccounted for) if it were to be Kyle. Or heck, might as well be Rytlock’s father’s brother’s wife’s daughter’s cousin. It’d be equally contrived.

Some people now think Kyle because of Kasmeer’s line “No, it can’t be…” but that line doesn’t have to be about Lazarus’ identity.

@Tara:

The clips from the video show a verdant area. And we deal a lot with Rata Novus it seems. Going east of Tangled Depths seems most likely.

It won’t be called Tangle Root because [Tangle Root exists already](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tangle_Root). And the area is technically west of (most of) GW1’s Tangle Root.

I’d say this is the most likely area, given the clips not showing any fire (except the flashback clips at the beginning). Further, Ember Bay’s few jungle islands are supposedly the only such islands in all of the Ring of Fire. In all of GW1, there was one island that managed plantlife, and that was tiny and has sunk since then (or so world map indicates). The rest are too close to the volcanic activity to promote such verdance, especially with the total lack of volcanic activity in the clips. It’s plausible to be Ring of Fire, but I don’t think it’s likely.

I don’t see any relevance for your options 3, 4, 6, or 7. For 6, especially, we saw the edge of that “big lake” in the third raid wing.

Using your seven options, from most to least, I’d number them as: 5, 1, 2, 4, 3, 7, 6.

Ash.5034:

Sloping volcanic cliffs though.

Except in the (rather obvious) flashback to previous episode clips near the end, I didn’t see any volcanic activity in the shots.

All shots were either in Rata Novus or in the verdant underground new place.

There are the ashes of a fire flying inbetween, but that’s likely because primordus and destroyers or Lazarus’ visible ties to fire from episode 1. And the phrase “the deception will burn”.

Amaimon.7823:

But my original prediction: Lazarus is going for the Maw of Abaddon next > EXTREMELY LIKELY!

Er… how is this extremely likely? We see the new map there, starting at 0:38, and it is green. Vigil are present, and dinorsaurs too, but most importantly: it is green.

That’s Heart of Maguuma plants too.

• At 0:51 there’s a brand new green-destroyer model, as well. There may be more, finally some diversity in destroyers.

As to Lazarus “definitely being not Lazarus” – I wouldn’t be so sure. The PC’s lines are, after all, created from an incomplete perspective that we players know more about (that being that Lazarus can physically exist without all his aspects). All the lines prove is that the artifact did indeed have an aspect of Lazarus, if we take them at face value.

And whoever Lazarus truly is, it would seem that Kasmeer’s surprised by it (if the lines-to-imagery is giving an accurate depiction). Which if so implies Kasmeer knows something about his true identity (that is: knows who the person pretending to be Lazarus is, not that they were pretending to be Lazarus).

Lord Hammer Hand.4815:

wow sadly this one is already debunked

HAH! Oh ye of little imagination. Clearly, Lazarus is not only Kasmeer, but Kasmeer from the future, going back in time after becoming evil!

This was hinted at for a long time after all. Who here PvPs? Probably not many, but ever been to the much hated Skyhammer? Ever seen the loading screen? That’s right: That’s evil Kasmeer fighting healed Taimi! That PvP map is a partial fractal of the future!

The division of Dragon’s Watch and Kasmeer’s descent into evil has been hinted at for years and no one noticed!

The four lines were just ley lines that he was situated on. They were not going to where the dragons are, given that at the time three of them were in the same 90 degree quarter, nor related to the remaining Elder Dragons.

Divine Fire was just used to open Augury Rock, and wasn’t actually part of the Ascension trial, but even then was just the physical representation of the “gods looking down upon us”, which is very much in line with the Weh no Su’s “The stars in the night sky cast their light down upon the world, making physical replicas of themselves.”

And it’s not like the Divine Fire stuck with us. It went away once we killed the doppleganger. Just like the Celestials’ “physical replicas” go away with the trial ended. Divine Fire was used just for the trial – and its primary purpose was to open the way, not to actually be part of the Ascending (unless you count the entire three missions as the Ascending bit and not just preluding trials which they seem to be given the Elonians who created two of them, not the Forgotten).

Ultimately, everything between the two revolves around heavenly beings looking down on us and us trying to earn their favor. Whether it’s gods and Ascension or celestials and weh no su. Divine Fire = the stars casting “light down upon the world”

As for the “unreliable narrator therefore wrong” bit… until there’s sufficient reason to believe he’s unreliable rather than “well, maybe…” then there’s no reason to argue such, otherwise you’re arguing that all lore is “therefore wrong”. Which isn’t a healthy mentality when addressing lore.

E’s letter doesn’t mention what Kasmeer is doing, just that E wants her to investigate the nobility of DR.

Given where and how we found the letter, it’s highly likely to have never reached her.

And Kasmeer likely won’t be able to tell whether or not Lazarus is lying. It’s not a instant magical thing she has – she’s basically doing the old “read the face to tell lies” technique.

In Heart of Thorns she talks about how she doesn’t know if Ibli and Tizlak are lying because they’re the first Itzel and Nuhoch they’ve encountered, but that after talking to them for a while she’ll “have them figured out”.

Kasmeer Meade: These new hylek are hard to read, but they seem truthful. A little more time and I’ll have a handle on them.

Hell, even in Season 2 when her “lying detection” first came into play, she talks about Morning’s body posture and face, rather than saying “it’s magic yo”.

Kasmeer Meade: I hate to speak ill of the dead, but that Zephyrite was lying.
Marjory Delaqua: About what?
Kasmeer Meade: Don’t get me wrong. She was very afraid for the Master of Peace. But when she said she didn’t know why he was in danger…I could tell. She was lying.
Marjory Delaqua: Why would she lie? Are you sure?
Kasmeer Meade: Absolutely. It was in her posture and in her eyes. She didn’t give us the whole truth.

Lastly, during Party Politics (as horrid as that was for an “investigation” plot), when you miss Estelle lying during the second conversation, Kasmeer says:

Kasmeer: Hold on, <Character name>. Did you see her eye twitch? I don’t think you should trust her.

Kasmeer: Her eye twitched when she said that. I don’t think it’s the truth.

Kasmeer has no super powers when it comes to lie detection. ArenaNet suddenly wrote in that she could read facial expressions and body movements very well, without any explanation as to why (which is why folks think that it’s some magical super power).

Lazarus, being a mursaat, would – like the hylek – be unknown to Kasmeer. Furthermore, he wears a mask, so she’s without facial expressions as well. This would make figuring him out a difficult task – one she’d get eventually, but it won’t be a case of “first time they interact, Kasmeer knows he lies” case.