Guild Wars 2

That’s not what I said.

That fan-made map is based off of ArenaNet’s world maps (from GW1). Not the other way around.

They used what was originally a fan-made map (the artist could have been hired by ArenaNet for development of GW2 for all we know) and heavily altered it for the one singular globe. The map has been greatly expanded from the fan-made map – as you can tell by looking at the links I provided.

All other globes and world maps are completely different from that one, however, and much more detailed. Showing that the one singular globe is not intended to be accurate, since only Tyria/Elona is even shown on the thing (so the aspects the fan-made map got wrong – like the placement of Cantha – is not canon).

Jokubas.4265:

This episode seems pretty confident that Lazarus is an impostor. People have pointed out that the logic doesn’t necessarily follow, but it seems unlikely they’d end the episode with this revelation as a cliffhanger if they didn’t mean it to be true.

There’s plenty of ways to utilize the revelation with it being false.

For example, using the “fake Lazarus” is a plot that further pulls the Commander into distrust of Lazarus, preventing Lazarus – real or not – from becoming an ally. This not only pulls Lazarus further into the realm of a villain to confront later (such as at the end of Season 3 perhaps), but if “Lazarus” has managed to gain Marjory’s support, this further fractures Dragon’s Watch which seems to be an intended theme for Season 3 – especially with The Regrown Sword instance that got added as current events, and the line within: “But the harder the hero fought, the further the world seemed to tumble away.”

The Pact Commander’s world is tumbling away, not just in the literal sense of Tyria succumbing to the overflow of magic, but losing their allies (Dragon’s Watch).

We could easily turn into a situation where Marjory gets “converted” and follows the real Lazarus who truly has turned good, but the Pact Commander is in denial of such due to Bauer’s double-or-triple agent actions, and we end up fighting (and maybe even personally killing) Marjory.

Or it could go that we begin a conflict with a real Lazarus, and Kasmeer comes in with her lie detecting ability and sets things straight – whether that means two Lazarus’s, Lazarus isn’t really good, or whathaveyou.

There was dialogue I found once that said that elementals are mindless. A mindless creature cannot posses such. So in turn, elementals wouldn’t be capable. Note, djinn are considered elementals by mechanics but they are certainly sapient.

As far as I remember, the only case of possessing we see is Bria’s shadow fiend minions taking over charr bodies – in the process they chase out the charr’s soul, so we never see any co-existence of souls. But this means that ghosts (as Shadow Fiends are Nightmares, which were one shown to be malevolent souls that became twisted in appearance) could possess a living body – but doing so would “kick out” the person’s soul.

The (credible) theory is that they’re half-siblings (one shared parent). IIRC, that got mentioned in a scrapped dialogue for Season 1’s ending (where Marjory was to be killed by Taimi’s rashness). Though whether they scrapped that bit of lore or not is left in the air (hence, credible theory).

Daniel Handler.4816:

Even if you meant only the fallout qualifies as a new form we can do a scavenger hunt for areas with similar models.

• All snow is bare minimum Jormag corruption.
• Bare minimum Mordremoth corruption can be found all over Tyria.

You’re making the mistake of the argument that “all of A is B therefore all of B is A” but there’s no such thing to claim the latter half.

For example: all shamans in modern charr society are Flame Legion, but not all Flame Legion are shamans.

Similarly, all of Jormag’s corruption is ice/snow/frost, but not all ice/snow/frost is Jormag’s corruption.

We see elsewhere that Jormag’s corruption spreading can take the form of seemingly normal ice – it’s not all blue and black (just look at most icebrood models, or how about the ice blocks seen in Snow Climb ). There is no reason to presume just because the frost around Thaumanova is not black and blue – which is the appearance of pressurized ice, like the bottom of an iceberg

(On the matter of dragon corruption taking an actual natural appearance, remember the bubble shames in the Dragonbrand? looks familiar, perhaps? – basically, one can theorize that Kralkatorrik’s method of creating the Dragonbrand with his golden fire was effectively superheating and supercooling the land, causing air to trap inside melting surface and cooling off as it ascended to escape – of course, that isn’t to say his corruption is pure science, but rather that there’s an actual science it’s mimicking, same with Jormag’s corruption).

Point being: Just because Jormag’s corruption can look like normal ice, doesn’t mean all normal ice is in fact corruption.

Mem no Fushia.7604:

Vision crystal is made from bloodstone, dragonite, empyreal, obsidian. Asume its canon. Its way to gain ascension. Weh no Su was also way. It can be represented by empyreal star. Next asumption is every single can lead torward ascension. In some degree it should be equal. So for what combining it. To create something that represent all magic. Vision to see all in one picture.

About “its way to gain ascension”….

Marjory: If you find all three shards from Ossa’s vision crystal, it says here he’ll put them back together. Hm, these shards are different from the vision-crystal shards so prevalent today.
PC: These are clearly powerful artifacts and not just crafting materials.

The “Vision Crystals” that we craft are different from the three used as part of Ascension.

Not quite sure what your post is referring to though. No one mentioned Ascension in this thread at all?

Daniel Handler.4816:

@konig,
You either have contradictions or you raise more questions.

You imply that everything that wasn’t hit by the initial blast requires direct influence in the aftermath.

The Searing shot up and hit the sky. Perhaps clouds in the atmosphere were corrupted. The brand shot down and hit the ground, it didn’t hit any clouds. By your own reasoning the now crystalline clouds that fell in the searing wouldn’t affect the soil any more than sentinels wandering in the brand.

There are no contradictions and no raised questions.

You are presuming that the Searing had some corruptive elements to it. I am saying it did not – at all.

The reason for this is because Elder Dragons must actively corrupt things – we see this first hand. The Searing was powered by magic taken from a sleeping Elder Dragon – in other words, the magic could not be corruptive. It is not “draconic energy” as the term is defined by NPCs other than Taimi.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Everything corrupted should follow the same color pallette and nomenclature as standard corrupted. The searing crystals match the color of the brand. And when Sylvari lost control they reverted to the other colors.

• Why if corruption takes multiple forms would the vegetation take the cleansed Sylvari-esque variety instead of the Mordem?
• Do you think there was forgotten magic in the reactor?
• Why would the writers use the word unstable instead of corrupted even though they remembered to write Icebrood for the displaced wolves?

Corruption doesn’t have a color pallette. Take the mordrem for example – while there was a lot of brown (Mordrem Guard, mostly) and dark green (HoT/Silverwastes mordrem, mostly), there was a lot of purple as well (Mawdrey, Husks, Vinewrath, some of the large vines), and also included bright lime green (Vine Chambers / Luminescent Wolves), black (the helix in Heart of Thorns, leeching thrashers, Spitfires/Breachers), and even yellows (Thrashers, Mordrem Wolves).

That is a huge color variation.

And to your bulletpoints:

• We do not know what the source of the “draconic energy” used was. If it were like CoE, then it likely pulls from purified plant draconic energy, rather than non-purified. It should be noted that CoE’s Zone Green and Experimental Green Lab utilize the same sylvari-esque models.
• No.
• Not everything icebrood is actually named “Icebrood” or “Corrupted”. Anet writers tend to have inconsistencies (“Svanir” in Bitterfrost Frontier, anyone? Why not call them for what they are: “Icebrood”).

Daniel Handler.4816:

Not everything has to be corrupted, but if your bare minimum is ignoring color, nomenclature and contagiousness, your definition isn’t incongruous it’s useless.

The funny thing is that’s what I’ve been saying the entire time.

And this is why cases that are “a lot of magic” does not result in corruption, unlike your claims were.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Well at least useless for a rebuttal to the all magic is dragon magic hypothesis. The only requirement is a transformation and magic is an avenue for change.

Dragon magic is defined by NPCs (all but Taimi), when defining it, as what corrupts. Corruption is shown and defined as both the physical transformation from material A to material B permanently as well as the mental enslavement.

No normal case of magic changes a material from A to B permanently (only real notable case is the Margonites), and few causes mental enslavement, and non cause both with the sole exception of dragon corruption and the toxic alliance’s magic.

Magic is indeed an avenure of change, but not all change is corruption.

And it should be noted that “from Material A to Material B permanently” is vital to this conversation. Because most cases of magic is not changing something from one material to another (e.g., from flesh to crystal) but from one appearance to another (same material composition the entire time). And even then, it is very rarely permanent.

Daniel Handler.4816:

• my elementalist corrupted the air into fireballs, but the rest dissipated before it could affect anyone. Etc.

Except that doesn’t happen – while it’s largely left open handed, we see the creation of fire not turning air into fire; one can even argue that the fireball is actually an expansion of the flames around the elementalists’ hands (and same for all other spells of the element) which is formed and maintained by the elemental attunement – and regardless of interpretation, it entirely ignores the permanently aspect which is very important.

Even purifying dragon corruption doesn’t revert the physical change.

That map’s been known since launch. The funny thing is that it’s taken from a fan-created map of GW1’s playable areas but altered for GW2’s changes to Tyria (but not Elona). There was a dat taken image of it but it so greatly differed from the one from the OoW globe and the later added Priory basement floor folks ended up ignoring it.

Found the globe’s texture, pulled from the dat file – as you can see, it differs drastically from the other two dat textures. It should be noted that the Guild Portal is a full globe of the map that utilizes the same map design as the OoW globe and the Durmand Priory basement floor map (that_shaman said that it’s the exact same design as the Durmand Priory basement floor texture, no improvements or alterations made to coastlines etc.).

In other words, I doubt that anything visible (and not) on that globe model is meant to be accurate to what the world looks like – at best, just what humans of Kryta think the world looks like (which would be weird given the educating aspect of the Durmand Priory).

But, originally, as said it comes from a fan map of GW1.

Why make the grawl worship the Bloodstone? If the Sons of Svanir wanted to manipulate the grawl – and they’ve shown they indeed do (see bottom of post) – then they’d push for the worship of Jormag and its dragon champions instead.

The grawl could easily discover a Bloodstone and worship it themselves, though. They have a natural history of finding odd but natural rock formations to revere, as well as unnatural rock formations.

In addition, the size of the Bloodstones and the distances of the three known Bloodstones from Abaddon’s Mouth volcano would imply that if another Bloodstone landed on land, it’s in Scavenger’s Causeway (and either the last or both of the last are likely underwater – either in the Sea of Sorrows or the Clashing Seas). There is the Shiverpeak Bloodstones, but that’s in the unexplored area between Sparkfly Fen and Timberline Falls (more or less – it’s actually underground now due to it landing above a cave system and the rocks collapsing on impact, given the appearance in GW1 – while unlikely it’s plausible for the opening above the Bloodstone to have been closed off in the 250 years; unlikely because it didn’t in over 1,000 years).

So there’d be no Bloodstone close to both Sons of Svanir and Grawl – as while grawl are close to the Shiverpeak Bloodstone, the Sons of Svanir / icebrood are nowhere near the area.

Rognik.2579:

I don’t think this is plausible. While there is that one event in Wayfarer Foothills that has a norn set up a new statue for the grawl to worship, no one ever tells the grawl “This is your new god! Worship it!” It has to be a grawl shaman to persuade his followers to worship a god – which is far from a difficult task.

While individuals do not often say “this is your new god, worship it!” they do say “I understand the will of your god, obey me!” and listen to the individual – see the Fireheart Rise grawl, for example.

It’s also possible to just simply put something that the grawl may worship – which a Bloodstone certainly would be – and let them take it up naturally (which is what the norn statue event you described is doing).

Rognik.2579:

If a Son of Svanir really wanted to turn grawl to the power of Jormag, they either keep making dragon statues (which a few tribes do worship), or just turn them all to Icebrood. They wouldn’t need a bloodstone, and really don’t need an elaborate plot to convince them.

Just want to say this actually is the lore behind The Frozen Maw in Wayfarer Foothills.

As well as the grawl PS, which worship a dragon champion of Jormag.

The Dragon Tribe in Frostgorge Sound is another case of grawl worshiping Jormag – or rather, a champion of Jormag (specifically the various Claws of Jormag).

Aaron Ansari.1604:

They were originally built to keep magic safe from the dragons, after all, and we’ve seen that Zhaitan didn’t consume the bloodstone shards he obtained. Mordremoth also ignored the one in the Fen, even though it was well within his reach… although that, perhaps, is because he didn’t want to take on the Mantle before he’d subdued the opposition from the Itzel and Nuhoch. On the other hand, that didn’t stop him from provoking every major nation on Tyria by attacking their leaders…

Mordremoth also has vines in Salvation Pass and the White Mantle forts in Silverwastes and Fort Vandal, so he definitely was provoking the White Mantle. But there’s no vines seen in Bloodstone Fen (despite vines in other post-HoT areas, being Spirit Vale and Salvation Pass, as mentioned).

The only thing that would be remotely lore breaking about an undead in Kryta would be its intelligence.

With the exception of Joko’s undead and liches in general, undead seem to be mindless or nearly so, with the most vocabulary being but growls; most “intelligent undead” from GW1 were ghosts or in Joko’s army.

But in GW1, there were plenty of “naturally occurring undead” (as in, not risen) throughout Tyria – Kryta had most due to Khilbron, but the now-called Blood Legion Homelands, Ascalonian catacombs, and Depths of Tyria had their fair number of undead. Every case, however, had some powerful necromancer (living or undead, such as a lich) at the head of such undead though.

And that would make solitary undead very, very, very uncommon. But not impossible.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Kralkatorrik is the crystal/sky dragon, and crystals fell from the sky. Changing the air into crystalline structures would fit its MO.

If you actually watch the cinematic, something shoots up into the sky from the cauldron then crystals scatter. Rather than “changing the air into crystals” it seems more that “small crystals were shot up into the sky, grew in flight, and fell across the land”.

And either way, the land itself is never corrupted – as I said in the very beginning, the Searing is not a case of corruption, but was powered by magic from an Elder Dragon, thus disproving your claim that “all sufficiently concentrated/quantitied magic corrupts unless it’s magic from the Mists.”

Daniel Handler.4816:

The ice formations are the same shape , different names, different colors (corrupted is closer to the corrupted ice turquoise standard).

I’d have to check again, but it would be weird as all hell if they made a completely unique model/texture for the ice formation in just one singular situation.

Daniel Handler.4816:

We don’t get corrupted because we are the player character. Orr has corrupted newly dead in the region. And the dragonbrand has corrupted creatures during and after the initial blast. The thaumanova fallout has done neither.

When I say “you” I mean individuals in general. The Sentinels do not get corrupted by just wandering across the Dragonbrand – those who get corrupted seem to be encased in crystal (per a heart in Iron Marches) or the like; the Pact doesn’t get corrupted by just wandering across Orr – those who get corrupted are exposed to active corrupting magic from minions and artifacts.

The Dragonbrand has not corrupted anything. What corrupts are the minions present – or in the case of the initial creation, Kralkatorrik itself.

All this means for Thaumanova is that individuals did not come into contact with the dragon magic.

Daniel Handler.4816:

The dragon energy produced vegetation that does not resemble mordremoths creations. Or, based on the elemental keys, it produced earth that non-corrupted plants are growing on despite the tainted soil.

The Elder Dragons are very clearly shown with a “darker form of corruption” – take a look at Glint and her GW1 Crystal Guardians/Crystal Spiders or the Zephyrite skills or even the skills from Glint’s Egg or Aurene herself. Rather than dark purple and full of darkness and just being all around sinister, they’re all light blue and bright.

Compare sylvari and the Pale Tree to mordrem and Mordremoth – one is dark and thorned, overall twisted looking and sinister, full of blackened bark; the other is brighter green, white, smooth barked.

Corruption doesn’t take one form.

Besides, when Anet were hinting at the presence of Mordremoth, they used only sylvari things to do so (more namely, Nightmare Court things). Which is not too off from what we see there.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Your definition is still incongruous with the fallout.

It actually isn’t.

Something that is corrupted does not corrupt all things it comes into contact with, despite your apparent beliefs. Meanwhile, corrupting magic has to come into direct contact with something to corrupt it – if there is no direct contact (for example, if the corrupting magic dissipated or ceased), then there will be no corruption.

You seem stuck on the notion that if there’s any form of corruption in an event, then all things tied to the event must become corrupted – this is a false and foolish notion to hold. Just because dragon magic was put into the Thaumanova Reactor and caused the explosion doesn’t mean the full city would become a dragon’s playground. Rather, it means that there would be a bare minimum of some corruption, and we likely see this in the change of environment and nothing more.

Doubt it. He acts as though the others in the Bazaar know him well. I doubt they’d be so welcoming of an undead.

And in Tyria, eating undead doesn’t make one undead (probably would just make you sick) – if you’re thinking of the Sparkfly Fen heart where wildlife ate risen fish washed ashore, that’s because risen aren’t undead, they’re dragon minions.

And it’s not like they hid his model – you wouldn’t be able to interact with him if they made him appropriately down the well, so they had to make him not visible so you can interact.

Daniel Handler.4816:

@Konig

You are contradicting yourself.

The Searing changed the environment in ways mirroring Kralkatorrik. But as you said that does not make it corruption, or dragon energy. You can’t turn around and say the opposite for the Thaumanova Reactor because your definition is incongruous with its aftermath.

• The Ice area you point to is spawning unstable ice formations. Jormag’s magic spawns corrupted ice formations. Not only is there a naming difference, they look different.
• no creatures have been corrupted by being in proximity to these new environments

Did the dragon energy cleanse itself during the explosion? Was there forgotten magic in the reactor? Perhaps a process we don’t understand.

Regardless, canon dragon energy is not acting like its counterparts.

The Searing did not change the environment in ways mirroring Kralkatorrik, who twisted the plants and even the very soil into crystalline structures, even the water had become tainted by Kralkatorrik’s corruptive breath. The Searing, however, was simply a matter of burning the land (hence why it’s called the Searing). It’s as simple as that. The Searing was basically burning crystals falling that caused a nation-wide forest fire. Even within two years, new plants were beginning to grow (albeit very, very poorly). But no new plants grow in the lands touched by Kralkatorrik’s corruption.

• They actually use the same model.
• True, but you do not get corrupted just by wandering in the Dragonbrand or in Orr. No, you need to be influenced by the dragon corruption itself.

It’s actually north of Watchtower Coast but the ruined structure the centaurs are in are definitely one of those giant structures from GW1.

Given the direction centaurs are coming from, and the Centaur War having begun in ~300 AE with the Elonian expansion of Kryta (pre-Elonian Kryta seemed to have situated mainly in the coastline around the now-Sea of Sorrows), they were likely meant to watch for centaurs.

As to the watchtower’s architectural style – they’re definitely of Krytan origin, as explained in the Art of Guild Wars book. They even have White Mantle flags all over them and utilize art designs of Krytan buildings.

Rognik.2579:

1. She could’ve masked the dragon logo on the door, hiding it from the others.

She definitely didn’t do this.

And honestly, I doubt she could say “there’s nothing there” or “it was destroyed” – or nothing at all – and at least one asura wouldn’t be interested in what’s behind the door.

Rognik.2579:

The asura doing research in Ember Bay could easily be furthering their own careers by making the discovery before she does. In the case of the caldera krewe, I think one of them is testing out their giant golem to ensure it works, and maintain the safety of the others researching in the area. Nobody said the asura can’t multitask.

Never meant to imply they’re multitasking. But when they are betraying the Arcane Council (it may be Phlunt heading the Rata Novus / Ember Bay stuff but ultimately the whole council is interested in it as per the guided tour seen in the first S3 Rata Novus instance), as well as risking their life for her research, honestly there are safer ways to get their own research done unless it specifically requires the Ring of Fire – and given how many are wanting to leave the area to either avoid eruption or destroyer, seems that most of it can be done elsewhere…

Ardid.7203:

Phlunt is a member of the council, therefore, not anyone dedicated to investigation, therefore not anyone normal Asura want to follow, obey or be associated with. Taimi, on the other hand, is ofering an opening to a veru interesting area to make discoveries, experiment and in general risk the life in the name of science. This is the biggest call for Asura, bright and dull.

Nowhere is it ever said that the Arcan Council is “not dedicated to investigation” – they all ultimately want to get back to their own projects, but have a lot of work to do as councillors – though this has changed a bit since Edge of Destiny when such was described, due to the Inquest Councillor taking some of the others’ duties and relegating it to Inquest (per his dialogue in the council chamber instance).

Besides, following Phlunt or Taimi, they’re in the same area doing the same things. The only difference is that they’re becoming effective traitors to the state to spite some old man.

Daniel Handler.4816:

@konig, replay the fractal
All of the icebrood are teleported in by rips in space time. Same with the branded, etc. That’s why we don’t see any icebrood inquest.

I am not concerned whether all of the chaos magic was dragon energy. Only that we agree some of it was. Because if so, Scarlet referred to some amount of magic as dragon energy, and no one was corrupted by it before or after. Ergo Taimi is not the only exception.

• your definition is very suspect.

See Crucible of Eternity. The Inquest very obviously have a method of handling draconic energy without being corrupted by it. Clearly, this means that they never touch it directly.

The environments of the Thaumanova city, however, very clearly change – it’s not all teleportation. That ice across the SW corner of Thaumanova is not teleported in; the overgrowth in SE corner of Thaumanova is not teleported in; nor is the floating bubbles making the air almost water-like in NE corner of Thaumanova teleported in. The environment of the city itself was changed into mirroring aspects of Jormag, Mordremoth, and the Deep Sea Dragon.

@ drax

Daniel Handler.4816:

Margonites and Dragon Minions

• corrupted by exposure to magic.
• sterile, with a necessity to convert
• known for consuming a substance
• underwent a physical transformation that grew worse over time.

However, Margonites do not have a hive mind. They are not mentally corrupted, which dragon corruption does.

We also do not know how they were transformed – while magic is the obvious solution, we do not know the type or procedure of magic, whether it was merely exposure or a very complex ritual, etc. etc.

And they do not have “a necessity to convert”.

I also do not recall any case of either dragon corruption or the Margonites “growing worse over time”.

DarcShriek.5829:

IF I understand the vision in Omadd’s machine correctly, the dragon’s spheres of influence are part of the eternal alchemy. I interpet as meaning the dragons have been here from the beginning of Tyria, absorbing and then releasing magic. If that’s the case, unless new magic is being created, then all magic should be contaminated with dragon magic. The only other way for non dragon magic to exist is that something is cleansing magic from dragon corruption. Where is new magic being created, or what is cleansing magic.

The vision in Omadd’s Machine doesn’t show the Eternal Alchemy – which is the inner workings of all things – but instead shows The All – which is the inner workings of Tyria and six bodies of power that are tied somehow to the Elder Dragons (there is reason to suspect whether the six spheres were the Elder Dragons themselves or not – some lore in the Durmand Priory / Hidden Arcana implies otherwise).

There’s also heavy indication that there were dragon races – from the various dragons in Cantha to the bone dragons found in Tyria, and the giant draconian skulls found in the Crystal Desert (once suspected to be Giganticus Lupicus but now rather disproven).

The Elder Dragons do not release “contaminated” magic when they hibernate / release magic. They only do so when awake and actively corrupting.

As to what they corrupted going away, that’s harder to explain as we’ve not seen anything to show that the physical or magical dragon energy can be changed… best indication we have is the theory that the Orrian History Scrolls describing the Six Gods’ arrival being Balthazar and Melandru getting rid of old dragon corruption – but that would only explain such between the current and previous dragonrises, and not from before then.

Perhaps dragon corruption simply “fades” over a long period of time (thousands of years).

DarcShriek.5829:

You’re answer does not appear to make sense. If dragons cleanse magic of dragon corruption, then where does dragon magic come from?

Think of it like this:

Is the Elder Dragon awake?

Yes → Exudes “corrupted” magic

No → Exudes “cleansed” magic

Thus the Elder Dragons function as both purifier (when sleeping) and corruptor (when awake). Or that’s what I think drax is saying.

She is 100% being set up to be a Scarlet 2.0. The matter of a fall – whether it’s a fall from grace (aka losing her position/smarts/etc), fall from the “light side” (aka going evil), or fall from life (aka dying) – or not, is all up the air.

But she’s becoming a Scarlet 2.0 in a way the OP doesn’t mention, which is the worst thing to happen to Taimi. Two things, actually:

• First, she’s “always right” – just like Scarlet was – even when her “theories” are direct contradictions of old established lore or herself.
• Second, she’s somehow manipulating others by them having the idiot ball (for example, how can dozens if not hundreds pass by an obvious door with a dragon head sign, how we figured out it was the dragon lab, and not know about the dragon lab?).

Then, of course, she’s somehow getting help from dozens of asura who are putting their lives on the line in a very literal sense when by all rights of the race should be more concerned with their own personal progression and discoveries rather than being a footnote on Taimi’s (aka all the Ember Bay asura who are betraying Phlunt to kiss Taimi’s behind in the teenager’s research).

Taimi has, as of Season 3, taken on every single aspect that Scarlet had – both narratively (good) and writing style-y (terrible, horrible, awful, stopitnowanet).

She isn’t becoming a Scarlet 2.0. She already is a Scarlet 2.0.

vier.1327:

No, Taimi is going to be fine.

She will she another orb falling to the middle of the Eterna Alchemy. The fall of Mordremoth, and more stuffs.

The comander of the pact use the machine, and we are fine, even if we are sylvaris.

Scarlet was a Dragon’s Minion, Asuras are not.

I think the fact that a sylvari Pact Commander being fine is proof that it isn’t the fact that Scarlet was a dragon minion that drove her insane when going in the machine, but the long exposure.

Also, the fact that non-sylvari Pact Commanders witnessed Mordremoth and the other Elder Dragons seems to be proof that you don’t have to be a dragon minion to tap the mind of an Elder Dragon enough to get its attention while in the machine.

So yeah, that’s no reason to believe Taimi will be fine.

Mem no Fushia.7604:

Who knows what asura are?

They are very clearly mammals, and no dragon minion are mammals…

Mem no Fushia.7604:

When the escape to surface they were perceiving others races as minors or toolscheaper than golems.

No they weren’t.

Mem no Fushia.7604:

They played polymock and there was npc’s line that they know how to play before they born. Its have two means: they’re inteligent and they could also be living beings to simulate battle data.

That line is metaphorical to mean that polymock is a stable part of asura culture at the time – it’s like knowing about anime while living in Japan.

Mem no Fushia.7604:

To play polymock, you could receive figure, donate it(bind), but when played it actually was creature. Not only low mind creatures.

They weren’t actual creatures. They were like miniatures – animated toys.

To answer your questions in order based on my observations:

• Based on the cinematic, DR took no real damage. The first shots were reflected by the bubble as it was expanding and shot the dam. By the time the second round were fired, the bubble was around the whole city. So the only damage seemed to have been what we witnessed in the fight – the Upper City just burning by wide shots of the fighting between White Mantle and Seraph/Ministry Guard/Shining Blade.
• There’s no indication that there was fighting happening beyond The Upper City, so I’d say the death toll is in the dozens at most (and just to nobles/ministers and White Mantle supporters).
• The shield seems to be akin to Feedback. Not only does it share that same appearance, but we do walk in and out of the city without any problem while we see the projectiles bounce off of it in the cinematic.
• There were mesmers porting in but the wreckage was limited to just the one dam. This is why we had to kill the two mesmers who kept porting enemies in during A Meeting of Ministers. Once we killed the mesmers, the White Mantle stopped getting into the city which is how we “won the day”. The dialogue heavily implies that the fighting had stopped across the city.
• Unfortunately, the extension of effect on everyday citizens is not covered anywhere I saw. I’d imagine that only a few would act out like we see in Lakeside Bazaar. Especially with how fast things got under control in the city.
• The entire purpose of the suspension (which never actually happened best I could tell) was to flush out the White Mantle infiltrators into acting. They did, we killed them. The rest are likely deemed “loyal enough” in all honesty, now that Caudecus, Estelle, and so many nameless ministers that revolted are dead. Jennah doesn’t seemed to actually enact on her martial law since it did the job of flushing out traitors.

OriOri.8724:

I hope they recover as well, mainly so that we can get the Bazaar back

Technically speaking, the Bazaar was 100% separated from the Zephyrites. They were visitors to the Bazaar.

The lore of the Bazaar of the Four Winds is that it’s an “open black market” of sorts that changes places and pops up spontaneously. It can literally show up in any map or part of Tyria on a whim.

The Zephyrites were just visiting it while it was situated at Labyrinthine Cliffs.

We can by all lore reasoning go back to Labyrinthine Cliffs without the Zephyrites – or the Bazaar. They could by all reason make Labyrinthine Cliffs an expanded full-time map even if they so wanted.

From non-humans NPCs view, I’d agree that he’d be seen as the weak link, but humans wouldn’t. This is actually shown a few places in-game, the most iconic being the charr, human, and asura kids playing in Setting the Stage instance that once upon a time were always right in the PC’s path (but not since they made it so we could use the old map). Of said kids, the human defended Logan while the other two blamed Logan.

As for Edge of Steel being in the arena… one can also place blame on Caithe for forcing a stop to the bear fight, or Rytlock for waving a flaming sword around in a highly combustible setting in front of an individual whom he knew was angry about him owning the sword.

As for leadership: His role in saving Jennah in of itself proves leadership qualities (capable of rallying a broken morale) as does his now 9 years as Captain of the Seraph (then 5).

undercover.9657:

well even this makes sense in order to the hero it just sets the end of EOTN as false statement and it is still not explained why humanity doesnt honor their greatest heroes as the other races do (and yeah i know they cant place a stature of some character but as i said, something that reminds about Flameseeker and such)

You’e taking the line to be literal when it’s figurative.

All Ogden is really saying is that the Elder Dragon threat will be faced by the next generation(s) of heroes, rather than the heroes of GW1 or their literal children.

apharma.3741:

Possible but again why would ANet go to the lengths of explicitly saying and putting out an unavoidable mention of Lazarus not being able to be revived without the final aspect?

Narratively it doesn’t make any sense to say he can’t be revived then have him go on a hunt to get the last aspect and us try to stop him. I guess ANet could have a plot twist where they have us hunt it down out of irony or something as we should have mursaat.

This plot is heavily focused on bridging GW1 lore to GW2 lore. It’s a plot catering to GW1 vets through and through.

So I would say it does make narrative sense. We’re first presented with the notion that he can, but then that things have changed and this time he cannot.

We also have the bipolar attitude of Justiciar Bauer to consider.

This is all an intentional layer-upon-layer of creating uncertainties while presenting a certainty at the front (“he cannot revive”).

apharma.3741:

If he could have been revived without the final aspect, why didn’t the white mantle do so?

Not quite sure about this question. Are you asking why they didn’t try reviving him once they got access to a single aspect?

Given the Stasis Chamber, they simply didn’t have the means as it required bloodstone shards when they did (attempt to) revive him. This means they had to mine into the bloodstone which wasn’t so until after 1325 AE, which was after Xera had found the first aspect relic and was MIA looking for others.

Further, they no doubt wanted as a group to wait for their High Inquisitor who was out looking for the relics.

Maybe they wanted to find all five relics, then remove the “twisted aspect” so that when revived they don’t accidentally do the same thing Naveed intentionally did.

And maybe, they simply did not know that Lazarus could be revived without all the aspects. Caudecus doesn’t have to be the only one ignorant of Lazarus’ capabilities shown in GW1.

His forces were in the Realm of Torment, but nothing says Menzies was in Ravenheart Gloom.

I think they would have revealed if Demmi was E and had dozens of contacts in the Seraph, Whispers, and Shining Blade…

She was a complete novice at all things intrigue when we met her in the PS, and E has been established to have been around with that nickname at that point (see the Correspondences to Caudecus letters).

There has been plot of them post-Dry Top, but this was mostly the Aspect Masters trying to find a place for them to recooperate… then half of them got killed and we’ve not heard of them since.

Technically speaking, we only saw 4 ships crash. There were over a dozen in Labyrinthine Cliffs. So while their main ship (Zephyr Sanctum) crashed, there would be more out there still floating – no doubt they landed somewhere nearby to help the crash victims and are probably the ships the three Aspect Masters were on.

They certainly can recover. But their primary role has been fulfilled so don’t expect them to pop up in the story again except as flavor. But that role is usually given to the Inquest.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Well that depends on the events of the thaumanova reactor.

-snip quotes-

You forget two more quotes which are even more important:

Ellen Kiel: "Just the basics: the facility was intended to study chaos magic, but the Inquest and their so-called “specialist,” Scarlet, pushed things in dangerous new directions."
PC: How so?
Ellen Kiel: “They claimed there was a link between the Thaumanova’s chaos energy and Elder Dragon energy. They ramped things up past the point of safe operation, and the reactor melted down.”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Captain_Ellen_Kiel/dialogue#After_5

Scarlet is the only one who claims that the two (chaos magic and draconic energy) were the same there. However, Scarlet is a pathologic liar and, furthermore, research after it – which includes Scarlet’s claims – show that it was, indeed, a mixture of chaos and draconic energies mixing.

Basically, when you combine all of the dialogue surrounding that you get that her monologue was not talking about all of the energy going into the reactor being draconic energy, but rather the energy that she egged the Inquest chief into adding to the reactor was draconic energy.

Which is a very important differentiation.

So yes, Taimi is the sole exception.

Daniel Handler.4816:

• How much dragon energy do you think was present in the reactor?
• Even a little should cause corruption, right?
• And if there was none then the first known experiments with dragon energy happened with Kudu at CoE, not at the thaumanova reactor.

Regardless after playing the recent story I realize that future data, and most likely more Taimi retcons are coming.

This discussion is not as pressing until after Taimi has entered omadds machine.

• Impossible to tell and also irrelevant.
• If it was met with a subject. It should be noted that there are icebrood wolves and thorn wolves throughout the reactor, fractal and in the open world fractal we see even more icebrood. This implies that the draconic energy was mostly Jormag’s.
• Technically, Kudu has been experimenting with draconic energy beforehand – such as with the Iron Forgeman 2.0.

draxynnic.3719:

Seriously, Logan’s never commanded anything more significant than a Seraph company, and Kryta has plenty of Seraph captains.

Until this update, there were only “a handful” of captains at a time, technically. Each one ruling over a large region – Thackeray only had authority in Divinity’s Reach, while Trevelan had such over Queensdale for example.

Apparently they gave “second level of leadership” a huge promotion role in the past 4 years though.

draxynnic.3719:

He was the weak link in Destiny’s Edge (whatever his reasons),

While I’m sure you’re playing devil’s advocate I’d heavily disagree with this. Especially from a human noble viewpoint. Most humans would likely consider Rytlock and Zojja to be the weak links – and personally I’d put Zojja as such. She was, after all, the last to rejoin.

And the fact that Logan’s departure is what broke DE would actually mark him as a crucial link in the guild – though the even more crucial link that bound everyone together was Snaff, it was Logan who first bent his old ways to befriend a mortal enemy (Rytlock) and while not in command of large units he had shown cunning in the battlefield (see very intro of the character in the novel).

While he does have downsides, I think these are only enough for enemies to run smeer campaigns rather than the populace to outcry against him. Which is what was implied (to me at least) for the main reason why Jennah and Logan didn’t get hitched while he was considered the “first among equals” of Seraph Captains.

You liked Scarlet? What the cat is wrong with you! /s

In actual seriousness though, there is a lack of long-lasting memorable slash enjoyable characters.

I’ve liked (in no particular order) the three mentors, Logan, Carys, Tegwen, Sayeh al’Rajid, Caithe (pre-HoT only), Canach, Demmi, Kudu, and Caudecus personally.

Braham’s gonna show up in Episode 6 with a flaming bow, while Rox wields a fiery dragon sword… turns out it’s Magdaer.

That prison didn’t seem to have any White Mantle governing, just mursaat.

That said, the darker skinned Forgotten did wear headdresses and all forgotten dropped a variant of clothes called wrappings so I’d chalk this up to “they had clothes but models were uber generic to the point of not showing such variety.”

It’s not merely “hinted at”, it’s practically outright stated he’s a Separatist – and was 100% in on the plot to kill the Queen:

Logan Thackeray: Uzolan! I must speak to you of a threat to the Queen!
Uzolan: Threat to the Queen? Then you know about our plot!
Uzolan: We will not be stopped! Golem! Initiate plan Alpha!
Monique DeLana: Uzolan, you idiot! This is too soon!

He outright claims he’s part of the plot to kill the Queen, and DeLana yells at him for triggering it too soon. Then when you catch up with him:

Uzolan: Quickly, you fools! My plan has been revealed!
Uzolan: You have the queen and the others! Now save me!

Where he is subsequently killed by his fellow separatists (note: Monique DeLana is Captain DeLana, the end boss of the dungeon).

He gets killed before you can actually reach him, though.

The only new things from the letters and the final story step is the Carnival Workers being confirmed Separatists – the Ringmaster was obviously not Krytan, but it wasn’t clear if he was Ascalonian or from some other place (like it’s hinted Preceptor Doern Velazquez is) – as well as Caudecus’ even implied involvement with the Orphan storyline plot. Everything else was just re-affirmation or confirmation of implication.

Slowpokeking.8720:

As long as they have enough chosen it’s not a problem.

Actually it would be. They didn’t need “enough” chosen – if the purpose was just to fuel the Door of Komalie, anyone would do. Targetting chosen was for the specific purpose of preventing the prophecies (a group of chosen would open the door to end their race). They needed all the chosen dead.

And their method wouldn’t work if they didn’t have the whole nation under control.

Slowpokeking.8720:

They just need to knock out Saul during the battle, then kill people or just let the charr kill everyone then save the day. Not a problem to them at all. They remade Saul to the person he became, why would they fail to predict it at all?

Most of those killed only arrived after the charr were killed. If the dozens of nameless White Mantle didn’t show up at the end, the mursaat would have killed 2-3 individuals.

And they could not predict the need to kill dozens. Maybe they believes Saul would be fine if they killed two or three individuals, but not so killing thirty.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Why does it matter to them? The White Mantle are just tools for them to get the chosen and keep the door closed. Other than that they don’t care about human business at all.

Besides the fact that you have zero support for such a claim, the fact that the mursaat stayed with the White Mantle for the War in Kryta storyline, and kept trying to retain control over Kryta at that, proves you otherwise.

Furthermore, the old records from the mursaat fortress in Ember Bay outright state their goal was to rule all races. Kryta is among those they wished to rule – it was, effectively, the first stepping stone to their ultimate goal.

The prophecy was just something they needed to be sure to avoid (and failed to). It was not the reason behind controlling Kryta. If it was, then they’d have left human affairs after the events of Prophecies, rather than trying to retake Lion’s Arch and by extension control of Kryta by killing Salma personally.

draxynnic.3719:

Ghosts of Ascalon is probably the best reference: it takes roughly a day for the group to get from Ebonhawke to the southern part of Plains of Ashford, then roughly another day to get to Ascalon City itself. This suggests that the distance between Ebonhawke and Ascalon City is no more than 60 miles, probably less.

They set up camp three times. Once before hitting the Dragonbrand (Killeen still alive), once with the charr, and once right outside Ascalon City. They arrived in Ebonhawke in the middle of the night but iirc they left at dawn (I’d have to re-read), and there could have been times they camped which didn’t get brought up too.

But the time from Ebonhawke to Ascalon City, while avoiding charr patrols for half the route (particularly from Ebonhawke to the Dragonbrand – over a day’s journey, and with canyons in-between the two that don’t exist in the game), took at least 3 days and 2 nights (they made it on the third day, but camped for a third night because ghosts are worse at night).

So it wasn’t two days, but at minimum three (iirc, there is a line that implies more time/days passed than shown from when Killeen died and they encountered the charr). Mind you, they would have had to make stops for half to two-thirds of the journey.

It was never said to be given to the best blacksmith. Just one Eir knew whom she believed could reforge the sword.

Eir: Magdaer is shattered, but I know a blacksmith who can mend these pieces.

Slowpokeking.8720:

I don’t see how do they need to do it, they already had very strong hold over the humans before the truth was revealed.

Not really. Aside from the prophecy telling them that a group of Chosen would wipe out their entire race, something they were actively trying to avoid, the Krytan nation by 1072 (a year after Saul’s capture and imprisonment) the nation was split between the White Mantle and faithful to the Five Gods, there was still the Lionguard,

And of course, in less than a year, the Shining Blade was formed.

Not exactly a strong hold over a nation.

Slowpokeking.8720:

If they thought Saul was so important, they could simply knock him out during the fight and continue to deceive him afterwards, without telling him who killed those people.

Aside from the fact that they couldn’t predict how Saul would react, even if they did this the charr threat was definitely gone already – there was no one but the mursaat and White Mantle present when the White Mantle were killed.

Even a brain dead idiot can figure out who the killers were there.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Especially in the War, if others saw Saul, they would think the Mursaat had brainwashed him. By the time the Musaat didn’t have much reason to join the war as well. The Titans were pretty much wiped out from the Realm of Torment.

Not really. Firstly, while a growing number of people had gone to the Shining Blade’s side and grown distrust in the White Mantle this was largely due to the harsher actions of Isaiah compared to previously. Secondly, most of those who were anti-White Mantle had already believed Saul to be a deceiver and false prophet. So they wouldn’t believe him brainwashed but a fanatic.

Thirdly, there were a lot of people on the fence during the War in Kryta. It was underplayed but there were people selling out their neighbors to the White Mantle in hopes of being ignored themselves or having gotten some kind of reward. One prime example being Layman Josef

When you said “most people follow the human safestandarized way.” That’s no different than disregarding another’s opinion as insignificant because it doesn’t fit your own.

Topic said and done, move it to PM if you wish to continue please. Purpose of thread has been solved. DR is not destroyed.

Donari.5237:

I’ve gone through the story twice now, the second time looking for this pushing away of Logan. I feel rather dense because clearly from forum comments it is a thing, but I can’t spot it. I mean at the end, his reactions bear it out, but what specifically showcases it? I might have been distracted by other things in the instance(s), or I might just be blind here.

I saw her asking him not to reduce his effectiveness by getting killed, which hardly seemed lacking in affection. So what dialogue is being interpreted as “friend-zoning” him? Answers welcome!

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Regrouping_with_the_Queen#Dialogue

During this step. Specifically:

Queen Jennah: Something else, Commander?
PC: After the incident with Estelle, I meant to ask you about Logan…
Queen Jennah: Captain Thackeray has provided unwavering, invaluable service to the crown. I expect he will continue to do so, especially given the current situation with Caudecus.
PC: Apologies if I’ve given offense, Your Majesty.
Queen Jennah: That’s not necessary. I hear the whispers, and I see with my own eyes. Logan is…a loyal servant, and a friend. I think he’s coming to terms with that. At last.
PC: So it would seem.

The bold directly contradicts her earlier claims in the PS, such as:

Queen Jennah: I never doubted you for an instant, Advocate. Kryta has no finer heroes than you and Captain Thackeray.
PC: Speaking of Captain Thackeray… it doesn’t bother you that he’s going to Lion’s Arch?
Queen Jennah: I’m worried, I’ll admit. Caithe has never been trustworthy in the best of times, and lately… please, tell me you’ll watch over him?
PC: You know that you could stop him, right? One word from you, and he’d stay.
Queen Jennah: No, Advocate. I have enough servants — I want a partner. Logan must be free to make his own decisions. I made such a mistake once before. I won’t make it again.

From both The Queen’s Justice and Kellach’s Attack

First, she says she doesn’t want Logan to be a servant but a partner. Then she says Logan is a loyal servant and friend.

Not only is that friendzoning to the nth degree, but it’s a direct 180 for Jennah’s view of Logan. I could probably also quote the book to further how Jennah feels about Logan too, tbh.

There are other dialogues hinting at the same retcon that Jennah never cared:

Logan Thackeray: General Soulkeeper came to see me the other day and offered me the position of Pact Marshal.
Logan Thackeray: I didn’t…at first I didn’t think it was for me, but my injuries and today…
Logan Thackeray: Well, my eyes were opened to…ny role here.
Logan Thackeray: Her Majesty has always been the kind of person to do things her own way. It’s time I started doing the same.
<Character Name>: It’s a great honor, and you deserve it. Have you told her yet? I imagine she’ll be disappointed.
Logan Thackeray: I think she’ll be…just fine. Have a safe mission. See you on the other side.

Lady-in-Waiting: So nice of you to say hello.
PC: How is Captain Thackeray?
Lady-in-Waiting: As strong willed and hardheaded as ever, although he seems to have outgrown his puppy-dog affection for the queen. That look din’t suit him anyway.
PC: I’m sure I don’t know what you mean.
Lady-in-Waiting: Come now, darling. Everyone knew it. And besides, Logan is so last year. Even the cutest kitten can grow into old tomcats, if you know what I mean.
PC: I’m sure I wish I didn’t.
Lady-in-Waiting: Lord Faren, though. Now there’s a proper gentleman. Courteous. Magnanimous. Dauntless. Flawless. Tall…
PC: Oh, sorry—duty calls. Immediately.

Both from the same instance. Estelle’s poorly worded insult at the end of A Meeting of Ministers is another indication that everyone but Logan knew Jennah had no feelings for her.

Even though the development of Logan would actively put him in the position that Jennah wanted him to go into during the PS, it seems that they’ve decided the feelings were one-sided.

Well keep in mind that the prison was most likely functioning on auto-pilot for the past 250 years. The mursaat were only around for one year after they imprisoned Saul. Eight, if you count up to and including the end of War in Kryta.

If Saul gave in during that eight years, it would have brought them a huge benefit.

Saul, savior, dies in noble self-sacrifice, only to be brought back to life by his gods, proclaiming them further as his saviors.

How does that not help solidify their claim over Kryta?

Even if it happened after Prophecies, if it happened before War in Kryta it would have changed the tide of the war entirely. People would begin seeing the mursaat not as remorseless demons that kill thousands, but as beings who are both benevolent and spiteful. And it would bring more to their side or at least to neutrality just to avoid retribution.

Now to reply to ninja posters:

Erukk.1408:

Tinfoil hat theory: Feelings Edition…

Would it be possible that the “corrupt” aspect is actually something that could/has made him a better person in the end of day? We view it as corrupt since it’s something that could weaken him and possibly kill him. They (Laz and the WM) view it as corrupt since it weakens him and makes him lesser than what the Mursaat are suppose to be.

What happens if that’s possibly feelings and a sense of general reasonableness when it comes to “lesser” beings?

This was a line of thought I had. But to really make this kind of plot work, imo, there would need to be two Lazarus’s – a good Lazarus and an evil Lazarus – which formed from four aspects and one aspect (which is which, though?).

Or alternatively, have it so that he’s good now but upon retrieving the final aspect to complete himself he becomes evil again.

Just making Lazarus redemptive then proclaim the reason is “we twisted his very essence to be good instead of evil” is rather… a boring and kitten explanation for the redemption path.

Slowpokeking.8720:

I think that Lazarus is a Mursaat for sure, not something else since he did show the power of spectral agony.

We never actually see this Lazarus use Spectral Agony. He does grant us the power of Spectral Smite, but as shown in this episode (as well as Saul in GW1), even non-mursaat can use the power of Spectral Agony. Mursaat can only use it so well due to their ability to phase into the Mists at will.

Sock.2785:

There were indeed two separate rituals, just not as separate as you pose them to be I think: one happened in the Temple of Awakening, in the Stronghold of the Faithful, and the other happened in the Temple of Renewal, right under the Maguuma Bloodstone; the nomenclatures appear to imply they might have been complementary to each other, that’s what the whole “Operation Rebirth” should be all about. Everything seems to point to Xera and Bauer sharing the same intents.

I disagree on both of your points.

The ritual in the Temple of Awakening’s purpose was to revive Lazarus. The ritual in the Temple of Renewal was to empower. While the sites share nomenclature, they are far from the only ones. Take the Temple of Sacrifice – which is no doubt where they either killed or prepared the killing of their sacrifices. Then there’s the Temple of Salvation – where Matthias performed the experiments of imbuing individuals with bloodstone shards.

“Temple of” is a nomenclature not tied to Lazarus, but the White Mantle in general.

As for Xera and Bauer sharing goals, I’m not so sure. Bauer’s ability to be deceptive that is entirely lacking in his journal is definitely suspect. I think not calling Bauer’s goals as presented in the journal into question is a hasty decision that could prove a wrong move to figuring things out (just like assuming Caudecus knew the artifact was fake).

Sock

Upon accomplishing the ritual, we clearly see a body being formed from an empty space; that pretty much rules out Bauer performing the ritual on himself I think. In this scenario, Lazarus could/would still be sleeping in the stasis chamber.
I think it’s more likely that Bauer died amongst the others while performing the ritual.
It’s kinda obvious, from his memoirs, that Bauer idolizes Lazarus.

Watch the cinematic again – the figure appears in the center, then ghosts of the White Mantle appear around. The entire scene is “formed from an empty space” but the figure shows first, while absorbing the magic.

With the figure being the focal point, it makes sense that it shows up first. And since they’re not present, it’s obvious they’re going to appear from an empty space.

And I definitely do not see any idolizing by Bauer. What I see is impatience followed by faithfulness; but I wouldn’t go as far as to say idolizing. Furthermore, Bauer is cunning as shown by the letters to Caudecus. If he had any idea that the ritual may kill him, he’d send others down there, then vamoose the hell out.

Another thing to add to all of this is that, while fighting Xera, she can be heard saying: -snip rest of Xera for length-

I was going to quote Xera, but I decided not to because if Bauer did trick Xera (whether he also tricked Caudecus or not), she would remain unknowing of this trickery and would believe the ritual will complete regardless of her death.

Until we know what Bauer really did, her words are utterly meaningless, just as Caudecus’ words are.

Sock

We don’t even know how these aspects work.
This view would render the aspects disposable, and utterly useless in the end; why even care about recovering the aspects in the first place then?

We know enough to form an educated guess. This is having a very hocrux feel to it, meaning that they could be parts of his souls.

We know that without all aspects, Lazarus is weaker – this is why he wanted to obtain them all, to be at full power. This is also why he did not merely abandon an aspect.

We know one cannot destroy the aspect without also destroying the vessel.

We also know that damage to an aspect only harms Lazarus when it is reunited.

And lastly, we know that each aspect can act independently.

Replacing an aspect would be no simple feat – you seem to take my comment as if he were just replacing a computer’s graphics card or something equally insignificant to the individual. But I never meant such. Merely that he was forced to abandon the aspect due to what happened to it in GW1, and that to become close to what he once was before he needed a “replacement” for it. And that was the bloodstone magic.

If he didn’t abandon it, then he would first need to fix it. The bloodstone could do that as well – but the replacement part was under the prediction of Lazarus being a 4-Aspect Lazarus rather than a Full Lazarus.

Sock

One last thing: if we’re dealing with an impostor (which I don’t think is the case), we are dealing with a mursaat nonetheless.

Not necessarily. With the power of a bloodstone, and knowledge left by mursaat to the White Mantle, one can very easily duplicate many of their abilities. Including Spectral Agony, given even the Shining Blade was able to replicate a weakened version of such.

@Amaimon: Palawa Joko is way too out of left field. It wouldn’t fit his personality at all, nor his methodology (he uses others to do his dirty work in a direct manner, he never does things himself – or never did when we saw him) and he shouldn’t have any clue what’s going on in Tyria let alone be capable of infiltrating the White Mantle and having a high ranking White Mantle Justiciar gather individuals to perform a ritual for him.

Plus nothing anywhere says Joko and Kralkatorrik are clashing – it was Zhaitan’s forces that Joko’s were clashing with.

@ Drax: That’s also a possibility, but I’m not sure that would really fit the persona presented in the journals. He’s impatient and seems to be uncaring about mere credit to deeds. Plus, someone would figure it all out – that kind of play is way too obvious.

@Mickey Frogeater: A possibility I entertained the thought of, but I disregarded it because the Lazarus that appeared before us in Dragon Vigil / Confessor’s Stronghold would be the same Lazarus that was with the White Mantle (including Valis the Learned and Justiciar Bauer) during the ritual. I think Bauer, of all people, would notice if the “mursaat” was a mere human, especially after the deception he pulled (be it to Xera, Caudecus, or both).

If Lazarus is a fake, then the individual is either Bauer or someone Bauer serves and would see rise to power over himself. And Bauer does not paint himself as someone who would rely on others in his journal.

@Sock: Response too long. Going to put in a separate post.

@Gorgaan Peaudesang: An interesting thought. I agree he would have at least tried to get into contact with Bauer – however, if Lazarus is real and Bauer was at that ritual, he’s dead (one of those shadows on the wall with the others, which would include Valis the Learned).

And finding out that Bauer lied to him would prompt Bauer as an “imposter” – in that of a liar and deceiver. Caudecus, after munching on bloodstones, is not very good at taking people using his own tactics against him.

After that portrait and that loading screen, I just had to…

http://imgur.com/bHk00V7

Beata Dwayna,
You know I am a righteous man,
Of my virtue I am justly proud

Beata Dwayna,
You know I’m so much purer than,
The common, vulgar, weak, licentious crowd,
Then tell me, Dwayna,
Why I see him marching there,
Why his smoldering eyes still scorch my soul

I feel him, I see him,
The sun caught in shining armor,
Is blazing in me out of all control

Like fire,
Dhuumfire,
This fire in my skin,
This burning desire,
Is turning me to sin

It’s not my fault,
I’m not to blame,
It is the Seraph boy,
The captain who sent this flame

It’s not my fault,
If in gods’ plan,
They made the demons so much,
Stronger than a man

Protect me, Dwayna,
Don’t let this guardian cast his spell,
Don’t let his fire sear my flesh and bone,
Destroy Thackeray,
And let him taste the fires of Torment,
Or else let him be mine and mine alone

Dhuumfire,
Dark fire,
Now Seraph, it’s your turn,
Choose me or,
Your pyre,
Be mine or Kryta will burn

Grenth have mercy on him,
Grenth have mercy on me,
But he will be mine,
Or Kryta will burn!

All of this, caused by an awkward kitten in the streets of DR.

Out of the Shadows
We all know Lazarus’ grand introduction. And now we have an explanation for Caudecus’ shock and surprise and denial when he showed up. But let’s look not at Lazarus here, not even at the explosion of the bloodstone, nay, let us look at Bauer:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Conspiracy_of_Dunces

Too much to quote. Please read through them, particularly Bauer’s. I’ll wait….

Back? Good.

Bauer acts completely different in his journal than in the letters. In the letters, he comes off as a non-believer. But in the journal, on top of being as rash as his Inquisitor ancestor, he shows himself to be tricking Caudecus about the purpose of the Maguuma Bloodstone experiments and excavations. In short, Bauer is a true believer in the Unseen Ones.

If Bauer was lying to Caudecus about the experiments on the Maguuma Bloodstone, why should we trust Bauer’s claim of giving Caudecus the artifact?

On top of it all, Bauer was the one who brought people to the ritual in the mines beneath the bloodstone. “But he wanted Xera to fail!” You may say. Well, perhaps… but this ritual and Xera’s rituals are in two different places. Read the final letter to Caudecus again (first one I posted): Bauer said Xera left north. She left to the Stronghold of the Faithful. Read Valis’ journal, final entry. He mentions the stronghold has fallen.

The ritual which destroyed the bloodstone is an entirely SEPARATE event from the ritual to revive Lazarus!

Stronghold of Salvation
This is perhaps the most unknown to most players, due to being at the end of a raid. Even I’m not entirely clear on it myself due to the lack of videos, but I think I got the jist of all that happens. What’s most important is when interacting with bloodstone shards in the Temple of Awakening:

The bloodstone shards give odd a slight glow and mild heat. They appear to be mostly devoid of magic, though a residual trace of energy can be felt.

<Character name>: These shards are depleted. They’re devoid of magic.
<Character name>: Were they using them to revive the last mursaat?

There’s also the stasis chamber:

The stasis chamber is hot to the touch, with a recess in the center that appears large enough to accommodate a body. Charged bloodstones seem to be focusing magic to one spot. Ley energy seeps from the top of the device, as if the connection to Xera’s bloodstones was severed.

While it isn’t clear if the ritual succeeded, we know that something happened. Something drained the magic, and that something is tied to the stasis chamber.

Appearance with Naveed
The main thing to take into note here are two things:

• First, one of his aspects were twisted. This is why he had to re-split himself. But what, exactly, is the result of the twisting?
• Second, is that Lazarus existed as a physical being without the final aspect – we do not know the number of aspects he split into the first time, but five seems reasonable.

My Conclusions
As I see it, there are three possibilities:

• Bauer lied to Caudecus, the artifact given to Caudecus does not hold an aspect of Lazarus, and Xera’s ritual was performed without much folly.

The only problem that arose was that Lazarus was left in a still weak state, not enough magic was absorbed for the ritual to fully work. Thus he went to Bauer, who performed the ritual that exploded the bloodstone.

• Bauer lied to Xera, the artifact given to Caudecus does hold an aspect of Lazarus, and what was revived as a four-aspect Lazarus rather than a completed Lazarus.

The purpose of the stasis chamber was not to revive him, but rather to allow him to replace the magic lost with that fifth aspect; and so was the ritual beneath the bloodstone.

• Bauer lied to Xera, and the ritual failed.

Somewhere in the Temple of Awakening there are four artifacts holding an aspect of Lazarus each, somehow missed entirely when the raiders went through and observed things or perhaps scuttled away by other White Mantle while Xera fought us. Bauer performed the ritual not to improve Lazarus, but instead to improve himself. The letters to Caudecus and his journals alone prove that Bauer fits the description of being “tactical, deceptive, and powerful” – the description Canach uses for the fake Lazarus.

All three are plausible, but the second two hold the most interest.

Honestly, the idea that Bauer is the one pretending to be Lazarus is perhaps the most interesting.

But I wouldn’t go past the idea of a four-aspect Lazarus being around, perhaps that one-aspect that was missing is, in fact, the twisted one, thus making Lazarus example what he wanted to be when he re-split himself. This could even explain his change in personality.

And out there, somewhere, a one-aspect Lazarus that was twisted either exists, or is waiting to be revived as well.

Let’s look at the evidence in reverse chronological order – starting from the last thing we found out:

Confessor’s End Finale
This piece everyone knows. Caudecus’ says this:

That fool Xera has been sneaking around behind my back, going after her long-lost “Unseen One.” Worse yet, she says she’s close to her goal.

She learned that after Lazarus’s aspects were tainted so long ago he was forced to re-split himself…this time into artifacts rather than living vessels. Apparently he learned the lesson the hard way…

Xera has already found four of the five aspects. I cannot allow her to complete the ritual – nor will I allow this “Unseen One” to disrupt my plans!

Her efforts have been slated. I’ve swapped one of the aspects with a fake – and Xera doesn’t suspect a thing. When the fifth aspect is found and she says the magic words… she’s in for quite a surprise.

Once she’s revealed as a fraud, the more superstitious among us will come crawling back to me. Normally I’d simply destroy the original and be done, but I don’t want this mursaat’s essence near my home.

This is what everyone’s focused on. And the Pact Commander as well.

They’re also focused on the fact that we “saw” this “Lazarus” fellow. Canach even brings this up. But so many forget: they made themselves visible after being present while invisible during The Rise of the White Mantle mission in GW1. They also made Saul invisible when they left… Their invisibility is neither permanent nor restricted to themselves.

Now, Caudecus feels certain that he succeeded, with no doubt in it. However…

Letters to Caudecus
Let’s look at how he got that artifact:

Confessor,
It wasn’t easy, but I managed to swap the artifacts as you requested – just in time, too. Xera took off north without so much as a word. I wish I could be there when the smug zealot’s ritual fails, when her followers turn on her and come crawling back to us. Perhaps I’ll allow some to return. But most will be fed to the bloodstone. I’m sure you’ve delayed your relocation to the queen’s palace for as long as you can, so I’ll find a way to get in touch with you there going forward. Until then, Confessor.
- Justiciar Bauer

And let’s look at the other letters regarding this plot line, for completion sake. They’re to long to post, so a link:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Master_of_Puppets#Text

What we learn from this, that’s important, is that Bauer was the one who got the relic, and even before Esthel’s death and Caudecus’ rise to power in the White Mantle he showed his support to Caudecus. This becomes vital later on.

Rising Flames
Now, the well known part of this episode is that Lazarus comes to save the day, destroying destroyers left and right, offers peace and proclaims the redemptive path, and leaves with Marjory.

That’s all well and fine. Let’s look at some more specifics:

• Lazarus’s Blessing is a skill which grants Spectral Smite.

Given the name, it’s very similar to when Saul was granted Spectral Agony

• Lazarus knew where Aurene was, without any indication of being told.
• Most importantly, in my opinion, is this entry from Cami’s Journal – her final entry:

Day 7. Cami of Krewe Taimi. Taimi is going to flip when she gets this data. Nothing is as we expected. I’m starting to think we should evacuate soon or people could get killed. This place has always had a reputation as a hive of evil and I still sense doom here. It’s as if a pall of mursaat gloom hangs over the place. Mursaat. Creepy beings from who knows where, who ruled human Kryta for a long time until the uprising. Wouldn’t it be something if I ran into one? I’m heading back to rendezvous with the first raiding party. It would be tempting to cover every inch of the island, but I have to stay practical. I’ve felt like something was watching me. This island creates paranoia. Maybe it wasn’t so bright coming out here alone. If my calculations are correct, the raiding party should be camped just over the next ridge.

This is a good indication of why Lazarus knew where to be… if he was on the island when Cami and the Pact Commander was, he was invisibly following us. He was unseen.

Sock.2785:

The echo takes place and what appears to be an Anomaly (or, to use Caithe’s words, “a brilliant light, devouring magic”) absorbs an immense quantity of magic, incidentally limiting the damages caused by the bloodstone’s explosion.

The model wasn’t an anomaly, though there was similarities they’re definitely different.

P.S. Is it now safe to assume that Anomalies are indeed phased mursaat?

Not in the least.

They act nothing like mursaat. And the vision didn’t show an anomaly model in the first place.

Furthermore, if it wasn’t Lazarus who absorbed the magic, then it wasn’t a mursaat either, but someone (later on at least) pretending to be a mursaat.

Lots of posts incoming:

Less.1265:

Wow thanks Konig for all the infos. I didnt realized he had a part in the PC orphaned story o_O When do we know it ??

It’s in the letters to Caudecus achievement, part of the Confessor’s End instance. One of the letters is a very hostile “I really do not trust anonymous tips” letter from E (which is both ironic and hints that Caudecus knew E’s identity) which mentions “the assassination plot” and Esthel’s location.

Less.1265:

Can Kasmeer be related to this story arc since we didnt meet her for a looooong time (what the hell is she doing ?!) ?

One of E’s letters is meant for Kasmeer, though it’s unknown if she got it. If she did, she’d likely be among nobility trying to weed out the White Mantle insurgents there.

I don’t think Livia or Anise are E. E’s letters give a much different vibe than either of those two did at any point, ever. Jennah is a much stronger candidate for E than Livia or Anise at this point.

In fact, Anise’s attitude in this episode makes me actually believe the Anise=Livia theory.

Daniel Handler.4816:

1. Grumby

That doesn’t say they were sacrificed on the bloodstone. He could be referring to the White Mantle we killed, or the dwarves that were part of the assault who died.

Daniel Handler.4816:

2. Cataclysm
-snip-

• previously you believed that the cataclysm was Abaddon magic in part because of where the souls ended up.

I never, ever claimed such.

The souls ended up in the Realm of Torment because of Abaddon’s manipulation. It has nothing to do with the origin of magic. Any individual who was “touched by Abaddon” as they said (which basically means ever, at any point, encountered Abaddon’s agents whether they knew it or not) were sent to the Realm of Torment.

Daniel Handler.4816:

3. The searing and nomenclature

• I don’t disagree they actively and passively extrude magic.
• the problem with the term dragon magic.
• Kralkatorrik passively exudes ley magic of a particular domain
• you are saying the cauldrons were powered by a dragon’s magic but not dragon magic.

Like I’ve stated, explicitly, the terminology “dragon magic” or “draconic energy” is only ever used in the game in reference to the corrupting magic actively exuded by Elder Dragons and their minions.

The sole exception to this is Taimi and her new “theories”.

One way to look at it (though I’d say it oversimplifies) is this: Elder Dragons take ley energy and turn it into draconic energy or they can release it as ley energy again.

This was what everyone but Taimi is effectively telling us, when we combine all the notes.

We also know that ley energy is, effectively, the culmination of multiple “spectrums” of magic – we’ve known that magic has multiple “domains” or “spectrums” from the beginning, it’s just that we’ve not known the exact division of it.

The Searing, by all indication, was empowered by ley energy within Kralkatorrik. Similarly, the Six Gods took ley energy within Zhaitan to empower the Bloodstones.

The theory that Taimi presents which isn’t contradictory is that each Elder Dragon only absorbs certain “domains” of ley energy magic. Which would mean that the Searing was empowered by “crystal and sky ley energy” rather than “crystal and sky dragon magic”.

What is known not to be the case is that ley energy corrupts. If magic is corruptive, it is draconic energy, by all indications of what we know.

In other words – another oversimplification explanation is thus: “All draconic energy is ley energy ,but not all ley energy is draconic energy.” Which is where Taimi falls short (and you as well): she thinks because all of one (draconic) is always another (ley), that the reverse must be true, but that isn’t the case.

By all indication, draconic energy is merely a warping of ley energy.

Now, the reaction of individuals with the Maguuma Bloodstone is currently a mystery – it could be a nature of the magic sealed within that particular bloodstone, or it could be a nature of bloodstones in general. We’re not sure, as we only have one example of a non-Maguuma Bloodstone’s influence on an individual (Grumby). There is always the possibility of an outlier. But as it stands, there is no indication that the other four bloodstones would have the same effect on individuals as the Maguuma Bloodstone.

On top of this, besides draconic energy the Maguuma Bloodstone is the sole example of corruption by magic. And this is the critical point. This means that not all magic is corruptive – because we’ve seen magic in greater concentrations than both dragon corruption and the Maguuma Bloodstone without any corruptive effects.

Of course, this is all based on current data. Future data (be it in the forms of retcons like Taimi’s so-called theories, or in the forms of proper tying and expanding of lore like Caudecus’ manipulations) may change this.

Watched that video. I thought I saw the butterfly effect around his special skill-inducing teleport but seems not. Though he does have the purple bubble around him at the beginning of the fight. Could be Valette, but why would she protect him when no enemies around then drop the shield?

draxynnic.3719:

That’s pretty much exactly what Palpatine was doing, though. Palpatine was manipulating everyone, directly or indirectly, up to his death, and said death came about due to unpredictable events.

Maybe I’ve just never noticed it in Star Wars but he never really seemed to be that wide-spread and indirect in his manipulations. And honestly Jennah felt more Palpatine-like to me than Caudecus. Mind, Jennah is basically the “good guy” version of a Palpatine-like character. Manipulating for the good of the people rather than for the good of the self.

Finally reading through the rest of the thread:

Jaken.6801:

However who is Cin and why should I care about that scoundrel, who is clearly a bad guy? Is there any pay off to him?

Cin is a papermaker first met in the human noble storyline. He helped provide evidence to bring in Zamon. We later see him at Noble’s Folly as part of Faren’s Failed Flight Festival.

He is a scoundrel but a “good guy” scoundrel. His only real role is to add a hint of gray to the good guys, really.

Jaken.6801:

Anise was weird. Way to angry and cut-throat the whole time. Way to trigger happy. She never stroke me as someone who would loose her head so easily. Sure it was war, but I always thought of her being more reasonable and professional. She was like the Queen of Hearts… Wait a sec… Queen Jenna was agitated and told us about her pent up frustration and agression. Now Anise is very riled up. Maybe Anise is a Mesmer construct which channels Jennas emotions of some sort? Or Maybe there is a link? Something to think about…

Honestly, I think it’s the Livia theory. A “second Civil War” would spike a lot of hatred out of Livia, and it’s weird af that Livia was MIA unless she’s dead somehow between Sea of Sorrows and GW2. Livia was always someone who deeply loved her homeland and was willing to make major sacrifices for it, too, as well as being cold blooded.

Jaken.6801:

Caudecus did everything that harmed the humans in the past few years. Interesting, but I am curious what is his endgame was? Just the throne? World domination? If he is as cunning as he is discribed, it’s kinda weird to have him so oblivious to the overall danger beyond the human realm. Though he might have had just a one track mind over the years.

Well, he wanted the crown for sure, but he was also a major racist. I think his “end goal” was “human supremacy no matter the cost” – even temporarily working with non-humans (Inquest and centaurs).

But the “betrayal” of his family (read: his wife then daughter learning part of his true nature and disagreeing with him to the point of leaving) threw him off kilter.

As for Lazarus, my thoughts run to three possible conclusions. I think the topic of Lazarus needs its own thread. I, however, intend to go looking back through old interactions with and about Lazarus (particularly the Stronghold of the Faithful ending) to formalize my thoughts.

The lore is finally getting interesting again. Let’s keep it up Anet, please.

And drop the stupid Primordus versus Jormag. They deserve more than a shared plot or a silly fire v ice theme that’s a player bandwagon. Stop making bandwagon theories and hopes the canon – do not meet player expectations. Exceed them. Like you have here with Caudecus and Lazarus.

I think Caudecus used mesmer abilities throughout the fight (his teleport special-skill-knockback skill for example).

Demmi had a rifle when we met her in the personal story. But here she (mostly? only? I only saw her with) a sword and pistol – much like Caudecus.

E also directed us to Mordremoth’s rising threat. I think those two cases was less a matter of strong interest and more a case of finding something out so he directed us there.