Guild Wars 2

What Rox says is that some mordrem have become “unhinged” without Mordremoth’s voice. This may not mean that they’re riled up, and her use of “some of them” implies not all mordrem have changed. Wouldn’t be surprising if she’s just referring to the Mordrem Guard in this (despite a clear difference, NPCs don’t really differentiate between mordrem and Mordrem Guard).

Honestly, first time I heard it I was thinking the Mordrem Guard have effectively gone to the looney bin in terms of how they act. Since that’s the usual meaning of the phrasing. But we don’t really know what it means, ultimately. It’s too vague.

The Shatterer’s has no skin, unlike all other Branded – whereas Icebrood all lose their skin eventually becoming just ice and bone (as far as we know the latest stages for icebrood retain their bones but it’s possible we’ll find some without further north), branded immediately become just skin (or chitin shells in devourer cases) and crystal. His body looks like the same blackened stone as the ground and when it dies it breaks up (like the bloodstone elementals do, actually). Furthermore, it is completely hollow – unlike every single former-creature dragon minion, especially branded.

I find it highly unlikely to argue that the Shatterer was once a living creature of any kind.

Sock.2785:

Given the nature of the Bloodstone (why and how the Seers created it), I really doubt it had a sphere of influence associated to it, even when the human gods fragmented it (would you explain the krait obelisks and “other things”?).

Please explain how the Seers created the Bloodstone. Because I am pretty kitten sure there isn’t a single piece of lore on that except “with the Shadowstone” which tells us a grand total of nothing.

And the “why” actually does imply that they could have put in a different sphere of influence (or multiple) than the Elder Dragons’ own since they were putting in all non-consumed/corrupted magic into it. And a magic not matching the Elder Dragons’ spheres would fit that category.

It’s all theoretical still, though.

Sock.2785:

We are comparing one single human elementalist to an Elder Dragon; the amount of magics, and the power of their minds, are on a whole different scale. Firstly, “normal” elementalists can control one or few at a time and there might not be presidence for an hive mind, secondly you say elementalists don’t have a “telepathic link”, but how would the elementals even be controlled if a telepathic mind communication process wasn’t happening (not implying that it’s an active process though, we can’t/don’t really know)?

Firstly, numerical limitations is mechanical. We see NPCs use many more minions and illusions than players can. Isgarren controls countless more elementals than an elementalist PC can. Not a very good argument for lore.

Secondly, even in these greater numbers – such as Joko’s vast undead army – there is no hive mind unlike Zhaitan and his risen or Jormag and his icebrood or anything else. Even two minds conjoined creates a hive or group mind.

As for how to command: spoken orders and gestures or magical inforcement. We see this is the case in GW1 with controlled constructs.

Sock.2785:

Neither the margonites nor the Reapers seem to be constrained in following their respective god (we’ve seen margonites changing their mind and helping us); and neither do the dwarves seemingly – look at Ogden. Regarding the Reapers I’d argue that Grenth, in order to transform them in its avatars, imbued them with its magic(s).

The dwarves are outright stated to be changed in mentality. Even Ogden is, honestly – he’s much more focused on fighting the Elder Dragons. And this is pointblank shown with Jalis in GW1.

There’s no indication that Grenth imbued them with magic, TBH, but even if he did he didn’t change their appearance to be different from any other soul. No indication of “corruption” there.

Sock.2785:

I see what you mean there. If anything it’s the Affliction that’s more akin to corruption as we know it: undead beings corrupted by the malevolent spirit of Shiro, characterized by cancerous formations. Ultimately we don’t know the extents of the power of the Envoys; I suggest we keep Shiro out of the equation for now.

The Afflicted are just undead, ultimately, created using bloated and internally-exploded and mutated/grafted bodies. Little different than your standard necromancer minion, which by far is not corruption either.

Sock.2785:

People’s beliefs can be fallacious: in the Thaumanova Reactor Fractal we learn the Inquest thought they were dealing with chaos magic; Scarlet referred to it as dragon energy; in reality they were dealing with ley lines. In a sense though Scarlet wasn’t that far off: the various aspects of magic, which can and do flow through the ley lines, are a form of sustainment for the Elder Dragons, given that they obtain energy from magic (hence dragon energy). There’s just ley line magic (or the various natural aspects of magic).

False. They were mixing chaos magic with draconic energies (which Scarlet tricked the Inquest into thinking was more chaos magic) while on top of ley lines. Kiel explained this after looking at the results of our expedition if you talked to her during the Fractured release.

There’s also hidden dialogue for higher level Thaumanova fractal runs if you follow the rescued generic Inquest (from the dorms) back to the beginning.

Sock.2785:

If we now equate the salt to Jormag’s magic and the glass of water to an ice elemental, it’s clear that in icebrood elementals magic may be present in different concentration and may act in different ways, but it’s ultimately the same magic used by all other magic users; it just happens that Jormag has access to an immense amount of it (additionally it might know how to use it in unique ways which it had time to learn through the countless millennia).

The problem with your salt analogy is that ice elementals look like normal ice despite having far more magic than standard environmental ice. Similarly, fire elementals and fire djinn look on par to each other, despite the djinns having much more magic in them.

Similarly, Jormag’s ice is treated differently – not just in looks but in function as well to all ice. Same with Kralkatorrik’s crystals and Primordus’ fire and Mordremoth’s plants.

They are fundamentally different on all sides.

Sock.2785:

The only real divine thing we come in contact with is “divine fire”, a spell of unclear origins.

And the magic Kormir absorbed that made her a god. And we know that the gods’ own presence is radiant with “divine energy” that it causes people to go blind.

And divine fire isn’t that unclear. It’s always been attributed to the gods – the very original description is “fire of the gods”.

Sock.2785:

Konig Des Todes.2086

This implies that there are three overarching forms of magic which gets divided into the same or similar “spectrums” – ley line, divine, and draconic – arguably a fourth kind too (Mists)

Couldn’t disagree more on this view. What exists is the various natural aspects of magic (which we see flow through the ley lines in a plasmatic state) which every being in Tyria’s universe (the actual universe) has access to, including humans, charr, Elder Dragons or the human gods (regarding the Mists, a whole thread could be opened on them, but we just don’t know how they function and if there’s a specifical magical aspect (possibly it’s aether) connected to their “protomatter”).

Combine the Magic of the Elder Dragons, Power of the Ley Lines, Energy of the Mists, and a Vision Crystal to create the Cosmic Power.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cosmic_Power

This downright item states that the “Magic of the Elder Dragons” the “Power of the Ley Lines” and the “Energy of the Mists” are different.

And given how the mordrem react to divine fire, that implies – rather heavily – that divine magic is different enough too. Counteracting, potentially, even. Especially when you consider all the other magic tied to the gods and Forgotten have similar effects.

Sock.2785:

Regarding this though, I’d argue that from how Primordus was presented, it somehow “screamed” Fire.

Nothing about his actual body was fiery. It was all stone.

Sock.2785:

Does this erase the fact that those Sons of Svanir ran for their own lives from their corrupted brother? I don’t really understand your caveat here.

Because it shows that what you present as a common case is, in fact, not common.

Sock.2785:

1-2) When an ice formation attacks, it can be considered as an elemental (watch the Frozen Maw and the lesser maws, which are the ones to spawn icebrood elementals), while those that shape the environment are a representation of the magic itself (condensed magic).

They’re never considered an elemental in either mechanics or lore.

Also you’re wrong about the spawning icebrood elementals – you talk about Corrupted Ice Formations but the ones that spawn elementals are Corrupted Ice which has an appearance closer to Corrupted Ice Cores which are your so-called “shape the environment.”

Sock.2785:

3) I don’t know about the Dragonspawn (but given your definition that’s equal to an elemental), but I think the Claws of Jormag have the potential of being former dragons now corrupted.

Part of a dragon, maybe, given that its legs look skeletal. But the wings and body definitely look formed of ice.

Sock.2785:

Regarding Kralkatorrik:
1) I haven’t read the books, but this Crystalline Giant really sounds like an animated thing. The Shatterer, on the other hand, really was corrupted: portions of its body, like the legs, are still flesh (it’s clearly visible).

I’ve looked at the Shattered thousands upon thousands of times. It’s full body is a stone with insides of air. Just look at its chest, the kitten thing is hollow.

Sock.2785:

2) Do you sincerely view the lightnings as an attack made from the air? They are a collateral effect.

When they’re actively striking something particularly, yes, it’s an attack. The landscape itself is often described as hostile by the Sentinels

Sock.2785:

3) The soil is decayed? How can soil decay per se? As I explored up, in responding to Aaron, Zhaitan’s magic is flowing throught most of Orr (the region) thanks to the artesian well.

That the soil is toxic and infertile. There’s actual NPC dialogue that mentions it, just as there’s Bailey talking about the air being putrid due to the corruption in the air.

Sock.2785:

To quote myself: “Sylvari are by nature under Mordremoth’s sphere of influence (given they are imbued with plant magic), but this doesn’t imply they come from the jungle dragon. For example, neither Scarlet nor Aerin were fully corrupted by Mordremoth in the body and, even though slowly driven to madness, they both retained their minds to an extent.”. Sylvari are privileged creatures (or, at least, those who possess a strong link to, for example, the Pale Tree), beings connected to powerful entities which aid them in shielding their minds against the dragon’s “mind subjugation”.

They are “prvileged” but not in the fact that they are “already under Mordremoth’s sphere of influence”. That has no involvement with the matter.

Mordremoth corrupts plants, the plants change.

Jormag corrupts ice, the ice changes.

Corruption’s physical changes happen no matter what Material A is. It is always a case of: Material A (variable) changes into Material B (dependent on dragon). There is no ands, ifs, or buts. You will never find any case that is different.

Sylvari are a one of a kind situation because they are purified minions. A situation that has a ton of lore holes in it, but that’s what it is. That’s what ArenaNet has said.

Scarlet and Aerin were not corrupt in body because no Mordrem Guard is. Sylvari have a long standing lore that their body physically changes when dealt with a large amount of psychological stress. We saw this in Canach first, in Scarlet second, and in Caithe third. Then we see the extreme happen – individual sylvari becoming like clones in an army.

Sock.2785:

All the cases and the creatures you mentioned (plants, quaggans, even Kellach) are a case of slow exposition to Zhaitan’s magics

It may be slow exposure, but it’s exposure all the same. They are corrupted, and they are still living. They never die before turning, when they do turn.

Same as the conversion of Sons of Svanir to icebrood.

Sock.2785:

except for the corrupted trees, those are already completely turned; trees are living creatures too and as such can come back from death as undead too

Except those trees are still alive. Look at the leaves.

Trees become barren when they die.

Sock.2785:

unless fully corrupted in the body, the dragon will not have full control over one’s mind: an incomplete physical corruption won’t give a dragon full access to the victim’s mind.

Because the individual is not fully corrupted, not because the individual must be physically corrupted first.

Sock.2785:

Considering Kellach in particular, before falling completely to Zhaitan, he was a beacon for the risen to follow, which weren’t totally under his control yet.

Given that Kellach ordered the risen to attack the Ravenous ship, I call doubt into that claim that they weren’t under his control.

Sock.2785:

So, ultimately, one will fully be under Zhaitan’s control just once dead and reanimanted (risen)

Except that Kellach never died, and at the end he is in full control of the undead. I say. Again.

Sock.2785:

which we also can come in contact with and which can be cleansed

We know that corruption in small details can be cleansed. We do this during the charr personal story with the amulet experiments. Mind you, this is a recent development and does not purify creatures.

Sock.2785:

Once corrupted into Blighting Trees, they didn’t have a chance to evolve a mind similar to that of the Pale Tree and were just exploited by Mordremoth as a minion factory; they simply can’t project themselves like the Pale Tree (even if they had a reason to). And… are you saying the mordrem commanders communicate on behalf of the Trees? If so, what does that even mean? On a side note, there are stated to be three Bligthing Tree saplings overwatched by Cellona in Auric Basin.

• There is no reason why the Blighting Trees would be the only dragon champions that are effectively brain dead, especially for an Elder Dragon of Mind.
• No, I’m not saying the commanders communicate on behalf of the trees – I’m saying that the trees have no reason to communicate, because whatever tauntings the mordrem hive mind can offer is done by the commanders near it. Similar to as we never see Blightghast talk but we see the other champions with it (Thaddeus Ghostwright for example) talk, or in Sea of Sorrows we see Captain Whiting talk but not The Maw.
• On that side note: I know. I mentioned her.

Sock.2785:

You are under the assumption that the seeds were purified. For once, there’s the Revered Terebinth, an example of these Trees, but it’s still growing so we can’t know if, once matured, its mind will be powerful enough to communicate with its creations […]. What we do know however is that the Pale Tree was cared for and her mind was elevated in the process, ascended in a way (using the term loosely here) and that Malyck doesn’t seem to communicate with its tree (as implied by Malyck’s conversations), hence it follows that its tree’s mind isn’t on par with that of the Pale Tree.

You are under the outright false assumption that the Revered Terebinth is the same as the Pale Tree. It is not.

“Fiana was a gardener who fell in battle here, saving the lives of local hunters in the process. Her death transformed the soil and changed the natural growth of this tree.”
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gardener_Marithelle

It is a normal, natural tree that got changed by Fiana’s death. No doubt due to the sylvari’s attunement to plant magic.

As for Malyck: He never even met its tree while awake. Not while we knew him. So we cannot conclude that Malyck’s Tree’s mind “isn’t on par with that of the Pale Tree”.

Sock.2785:

As I said in response to Aaron, the “mind corruption” (total mind subjugation) has to follow the “physical corruption”. The victims are not completely under the various Dragons’ spheres of influence until fully corrupted in the body.

False. Both happen simultaneously. There is not a single case you will EVER find in the game in which you’ll have a physically changed but mentally sound individual.

Sock.2785:

And… “the free will is removed”? How do you get that and what does it even mean?

I get it from Arah, the entire lore around Glint:

Warden Illyra: Glint remained in crystalline form, but she regained her free will and identity.

It means that they have no free will. It means that “their will is the dragon’s” – a plot point made throughout the game.

Sock.2785:

Regarding the few mordrem guards that still struggle with Mordremoth, it’s clear they weren’t yet fully subjugated, still aided in resisting by either the Dream, the Nightmare or the Pale Tree.

You don’t seem to get it. There is no “partial subjugation” – except with Jormag, because he wants willing converts rather than slaves like the rest, including Mordremoth.

What Mordremoth does isn’t corruption in the first place. As described by Occam “Mordremoth’s call” takes the form of a “terrible voice”, “strange thoughts”, and a “this buzzing in [their] ears, like a horrible song that no one else can hear.” Which mirrors what we see for Scarlet too.

Here’s a question for you: if sylvari were not created as dragon minions, why is Ruka’s first reaction to the sylvari PC to call them a mordrem?

You would think someone trained to combat dragon minions for two centuries would know the difference between a standard plant creature (that were common when Ruka and the other Exalted were humans) and a dragon minion (which are drastically different than creatures of the same element or whatnot).

Sock.2785:

So, let’s assume this scenario is true: to start with, the seeds and some mordrem along with them were purified by someone from the dragon’s corruption with a process similar to Glint’s cleansing (I guess that’s what you’re thinking about with purified). They were then positioned in a cave (assuming they weren’t purifed in that same cave) and guarded indefinitely by some purified mordrem for whatever reason. Upon meeting Ronan, these purifed mordrem must have thought he was harmless, and not just that, but they must have welcomed him inside, offered him some tea and dismiss him with one seed for him to gift to his daugther (because, as you say, he did not flee, even though it’s implied he did: he snitched the seed and ran away). However, If this were the case (that every seed was purified in a manner similar to Glint’s) then Mordremoth should not be able to corrupt them back. Also, in this scenario, would the cave still be a safe place, still guarded by those purified mordrem, or was it overtaken by Mordremoth? Ultimately, all of this adds more questions than it answers.

There’s nothing to indicate Ronan and the “terrible plant creatures” interacted at all. He likely saw them, saw them monstrous, presumed them hostile, and avoided being seen.

As I’ve said countless time on these forums, the Mordrem Guard are not corrupted – not by traditional means. He basically implanted thoughts, but that’s all. No more. No less. No physical change, no removal of their free will. This is why sylvari can resist “Mordremoth’s call” – because it isn’t dragon corruption. Dragon corruption cannot be resisted and cannot be purified without rare resources.

“In this scenario” – or any other scenario for that matter – we do not know the fate of the cave and its seeds. Presumably they were planted, given the existence of Malyck’s tree. This scenario doesn’t add any question but the same question that must be asked regardless: what makes sylvari immune, and why are the Pale Tree and Malyck’s tree freed from corruption?

Sock.2785:

To quote what I said when responding to Aaron: “[the seeds] are in an embryonal stage, there’s not even the simplest of brains (or nervous systems) in them yet; technically they’re still inanimate things and it follows that this is the reason why Mordremoth was guarding them, waiting for the right moment to plant them and just later corrupt them.”. They weren’t purified because there was nothing to purify in the first place.

Why not just plant them immediately? There is no purpose in waiting from the Elder Dragons’ perspective except for when there’s too little magic in the world for the Elder Dragons themselves to be active. Based on the Eye of the North manual, destroyers were active far before EotN storyline. (“Those who dare to travel below realize the risk they take in doing so, and those who return tell wild stories of monsters made of fire and stone that move in the Depths.” https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Depths_of_Tyria )

And we know that Elder Dragons can corrupt inanimate things – Mordremoth not excluded. We even see them corrupting eggs (risen chicken eggs, risen spider eggs, risen drake eggs, risen raven eggs, branded devourer eggs being prime examples) which would be no less in an embryonic state than seeds.

Sock.2785:

Can you really assert that? I doubt so, since we haven’t explored all of Tyria nor have we come across that very same cave (not that we know at least). In addition to this, we witness another of these trees in its natural state: Revered Terebinth.

If the sylvari have been a long-standing race in Tyria and not in hibernation (ergo, dragon minions) but having seeds so close to civilization then there would be older trees nearby – with the production rate of the Pale Tree, these older trees would have hundreds of thousands of children adventuring out into the world. We’ve seen none, so it actually does stand to reason that there are none.

Re: Revered Terebinth see below.

Slowpokeking.8720:

No, with Zhaitan dead, the corruption of Orr started to reverse.

As Aaron said, the corruption only began to reverse because of Trahearne’s cleansing ritual. As Trahearne himself says, it could be re-corrupted by Zhaitan.

The cleansing has nothing to do with Zhaitan’s death, except preventing Zhaitan from re-corrupting it. And the cleansing only influenced Orr.

Tequatl Rising made it clear that the risen threat was still spreading, just not as majorly as when Zhaitan lived.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Mordremoth got the gift of rebirth from Mordremoth, but not all of death magic. He kills people to reanimate them, but uses plant matter rather than tissue.

He doesn’t reanimate, though. He duplicates.

That’s a major difference.

And he duplicates both living and dead.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Had Zojja/Logan stayed in the towers longer they would have died. The one that is saved second is considerably sicker, but has clones. Were they to have died I presume their clones would use actually use their abilities rather than just inherit their will. That is what was critical. With true rebirth Mordrem could use magic that Mordremoth cannot, similar to risen spellcasters.

There’s no reason to believe they would have died. Yes, they’re unconscious that doesn’t make them “considerably sicker” really nor closer to dying.

Furthermore, in Episode 1, Taimi states that the Blighting Pods have preservative fluids, implying that the pods’ purpose is to keep the victims alive.

Mordrem using magic that Mordremoth cannot has no relation to death magic. Powerful Icebrood use magic that is unique to them, as do certain branded, though the majority of them uses ice/mind and crystal/lightning/fire respectively, just as the majority of risen uses death/shadow magic and most mordrem use plant magic.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Ditto for things that get trapped in Kralkatorrik’s non-moving crystals, and since we don’t see how things get trapped in them in the first place

We actually do:

“Branded crystal shards. They rain down from the sky. Sometimes it catches one of our own, or one of those branded freaks. If you see one, destroy it immediately!”
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sentinel_Jaggedclaw

On occasion in that area you can even see the crystals falling. You can even get hit by one (but I don’t think it entraps you). And some sentinels you break free, IIRC, become Branded Charr.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

On spectral weapons- the dialogue wasn’t on the wiki last I checked, but an asura in the Cathedral of Silence says they aren’t corrupted at all. He claims they’re just magically animated constructs, like golems, and he builds a device that’s successfully able to neutralize them on that principle.

I believe there is dialogue that says that those are corrupted, but that they’re corrupted Orrian constructs. One of the hero challenges dealing with fighting the things, I believe.

Sock.2785:

Jormag’s territory is filled with icy formations, but not all are sentiet nor hostile. The ones that do interact with us are comparable to elementals, from the small corrupted ice formations (which themselves summon “typical” icebrood elementals) to the enormous ice elemental being summoned in Wayfare Foothills (the Frozen Maw).
It’s as if the normal (inanimate) icy formations are a crystallization of Jormag’s ice magic.

Three problems:

1) Ice Formations can fight back. There are many that do, both large and small.
2) Icebrood Elementals are not summoned. They are corrupted ice elementals as can be seen in this heart when Svanir are attacking local Ice Elementals with shards of corrupted ice – ice changes into different kind of ice.
3) Dragonspawn was basically a sentient and hostile corrupted ice formation, and the Claws of Jormag may be too.

Sock.2785:

Kralkatorrik twisted everything invested by its foul breath, turning the land black and generating a clear and defined aura surrounding the affected areas. The air itself seems twisted: by walking into the Brand its almost like walking into corruption itself. However, we aren’t attacked" by the soil, by the twisted structures or by the air itself, more generally by inanimate things.

This is false on three accounts:

1) The Crystalline Giant in Ghosts of Ascalon is the land itself attacking. So is the Shatterers, technically, both the land and air being corrupted into an assaulting force.

Also: I believe the five formations during this guild challenge causes PBAoE damage via lightning. I may be wrong here.

2) The air does attack. I don’t think players can get damaged, but in some areas of the Dragonbrand (such as Varim’s Run in Fields of Ruin) lighting strikes the ground.

3) You treat this as if unique to Kralkatorrik, but Orr is the same. The soil is decayed, and if you look up you’ll see an oily coat to the sky, and in Straits (if not elsewhere) the water is green and putrid.

Sock.2785:

Ultimately, Elder Dragons use the same magic we use (and every other magic user)

There is no strong case for this, honestly, given that everyone and their grandmothers call it “dragon magic” and “draconic energies”.

Furthermore, the Astralaria collection treats it differently than the ley energy which is what “every magic uses” uses.

It seems that draconic energy is derived from ley energy, but that they are not the same thing.

Sock.2785:

@Aaron Ansari

There are two stages in the corruption, in order:

1. Physical corruption: the altering of the physical form via imbuing the target with specific aspects of magic.
2. Mind corruption: once under a specific “sphere of influence” the subjugation of the mind can take place.

This is supported by the fact that both Twitchy and Glint retained their altered body form once their minds got cleansed on the Altar of Glaust.

While the physical change cannot be undone, they happen simultaneously in all dragon minion cases. It is not an order of events. And, ultimately, the mind is not corrupted – the free will is simply removed. Not subjugated either, removed.

Sock.2785:

On a side note, sylvari are already plants so Mordremoth doesn’t need to imbue them with plant magic, hence it can skip the first stage with them.

Mordremoth doesn’t corrupt sylvari in the traditional sense. This is a major error on your part. If it did, then we’d not see Mordrem Guard resisting him – dragon corruption is irresistible no matter what, both when it happens, and afterwards.

Yet we see sylvari resist the act of corruption, as well as the mental hold once Mordremoth’s voice goes quiet.

Sock.2785:

Zhaitan corrupts dead beings and ultimately the ones you listed are exactly that: once living trees and sea creatuers now risen from death by Zhaitan (I’d argue that, in Tyria, all of these creatures have a mind, as simple or as primordial as it can be (or, as you say, non-thinking)). We don’t see Zhaitan really making heavy use of those though; even if he subjugated their minds, they’d be of very little use: mussels, sea urchins, corals, “normal” plants, they’re all limited both in their minds and in movements, and would be of very little use in spreading the corruption. On the other hand, the Elder Undead Dragon doesn’t corrupt objects; I can’t think of any case right now except maybe a couple of Dwayna’s statues in the Cathedral of Zephyrs (but I doubt they are obtained via magic). In this regard, the real mistery with Zhaitan would be the orrian spectral weapons, but they appear to be a mystery in general (orrian ones, “chaos” Forgotten ones, bloodstone ones etc.).

Zhaitan is well known to corrupt living beings, actually.

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corporal_Kellach – despite Aaron’s claim, Kellach never dies. He does turn rotten and decayed (Vigil instance only) but never dies when that happens.
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fight_the_Mysterious_Quaggan_Affliction – Living quaggans affected weakly by Zhaitan’s corruption results in their bodies decaying
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assist_Crusader_Aisling_of_the_Vigil_recover_lost_skritt_territory – living plants become corrupted and must be chopped down to cease its spread
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assist_Jezza_and_the_Vigil_in_clearing_Risen_from_Fort_Cadence – corrupted bushes here, still living, must be burned to cease corruption’s spread
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Help_Ayomichi_slow_the_spread_of_Risen_corruption – risen corruption spreading from dead fish to the animals which eat it, resulting in corrupted drakes and other wildlife, which then spreads it to tree stumps and other animals
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Help_Brannen_maintain_Caer_Brier – like in the skritt area, living trees are corrupted here and must be destroyed to slow the spread of corruption

Those are the most primary examples.

There is not a single case I can think of with dead plants being corrupted. Those are very much living – leaves are there, still, but the appearance of the trunks are the same as Kellach’s skin before becoming decayed and rotten: purple veins coarsing thickly beneath the skin/bark.

Zhaitan’s corruption entirely affects the living, but it starts weak enough that it appears like a disease and is akin to the Sons of Svanir slowly being corrupted by Jormag – the influence starts low and slow, but becomes more and more powerful and irresistible.

As for corrupting objects:

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assist_Jezza_and_the_Vigil_in_clearing_Risen_from_Fort_Cadence – has corrupted Orrian artifacts that must be destroyed as they’re spreading corruption (to the local plantlife)
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ossuary_of_Unquiet_Dead – the end of this story step has us destroying Orrian artifacts steeped in Zhaitan’s concentrated dragon corruption.

Two examples off the top of my head, excluding god statues (not just Dwayna’s – all five temples get corrupted, and the statues in Arah are even more so) and the Spectral Weapons. I’m sure there’s many more cases.

-character limit-

Sock.2785:

However if this was the case the seeds would’ve been corrupted from the start, a being like Malyck (and its tree) would not exist. The Dream’s visions can be misinterpreted.

They can exist if they seeds were purified while still seeds and placed in that cave. Ronan was never said to flee from the cave, but found monsters within it. Those monsters could have been purified mordrem too.

Sock.2785:

There could be another explanation: the seeds (and, as a consequence, the plants from which they come from) exist in nature but aren’t corruptible by Mordremoth yet, because they are somehow immature in that stage. Mordrem (you know, the “terrible plant creatures” Ronan encountered) will then guard them, making sure they remain in the cave where Mordremoth gathered them.

There are two problems with your argument:

1. Why would they not corrupt the seeds in the first place? There is no strategic benefit to not corrupting immediately. Further, all dragon minions corrupt while they are awake, even if they’re trapped (such as Drakkar).

2. If they were part of the natural world and not the Elder Dragon’s cycle (ergo, hibernating minions), why are they restricted to this cave and not existent elsewhere?

Sock.2785:

By the way, there’s no real mordrem counterpart to a Pale Tree (referring to the entity’s mind, which also projects itself with an avatar), which is in its own unique.

Again, your argument has two major issues:

1. The Pale Tree created the Avatar in recent years. Aside from the fact that it’s 250 years older than the Blighting Trees, and has been absorbing magic for herself in that time (rather than for Mordremoth), she created the Avatar of the Tree for the explicit purpose of communication with non-sylvari.

Sylvari could communicate with the Pale Tree by talking to the tree itself directly, and it could communicate back both telepathically with sylvari, and through words made by the wind through branches.

Blighting Trees, on the other hand, have no reason to communicate with non-mordrem – the Mordrem Commanders can do that for them (and every time we see a Blighting Tree, there is a dragon champion overseeing it – whether it’s one of the three commanders or that one annoying, taunting, Champion Blademaster in Auric Basin that we cannot fight).

2. We never see other purified trees, whether Malyck’s tree or another, so we cannot say that they do not create an Avatar to talk with others. It would not be surprising at all if Malyck’s tree were to make an “Avatar of that Tree” to communicate with the PC when/if we ever go see it.

Ultimately, these are two huge assumptions you’re making based on the claim of absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

Sock.2785:

In conclusion: like the seeds and the trees, sylvari are not Mordremoth’s creation. After all, Wynne also says: “we’re meant to serve it”; the jungle dragon intended to corrupt the trees (and what may come with them).

This sounds more like they were corrupted but were purified thus removed from their original role of being made to serve Mordremoth.

@Vesuvius.9874:

1. Unknown, but doubtful. Keep in mind that Primordus didn’t absorb all the magic, just a huge concentration of it. Furthermore, we never see any Mind or Shadow in the new destroyers (well, I suppose the Death-Touched Destroeyrs could be argued to have some Shadow) so if Primordus did get “new spheres of influence” then it’d likely just be plant and death (maybe shadow).

But keep in mind that Aurene and the Maguuma Bloodstone (therefore Lazarus) got a good deal of Mordremoth’s magic too.

2. Every Elder Dragon has two spheres of influence, and there’s no indication that the spheres are innately linked to an Elder Dragon from the beginning – there was no doubt a time when there were no Elder Dragons, but all the spheres of magic were around. We also don’t know if there are only 12 spheres, as there could be more that the Elder Dragons are not so fully attuned to.

Ardid.7203:

The monstrosities created by resurrecting people in the Mordrem pods are pointed by Taimi as Mordremoth versions of the Risen. So yes, the surviving dragons do gain “powers” from the energy released by the dead ones.

Gain powers, but not necessarily the “sphere of influence”.

That said, while Taimi makes that claim, there’s little if any of the same outcome that Primordus’ and Zhaitan’s use of death magic in any mordrem. So while Taimi may make that conclusion, I wouldn’t call her right.

Both Primordus and Zhaitan’s use of the death sphere of influence resulted in rotting and decayed minions – whether they were of flesh or of stone. There was no rotting mordrem with the potential exception of trolls (which were stated by Scott McGough in forum posts to be a case of plant matter slowly replacing flesh – not too dissimilar to the icebrood then, which have no death magic) or the adult mordrem wyverns (which are so few in number to be a good argument for Mordremoth having the death sphere of influence).

The whole blighting pod thing is unlikely too as living beings were put in them just as well as dead beings, and we see similar methodologies in less harmful manners used by the Pale Tree to create the sylvari (though the less harmful manner resulted in less accurate “cloning”).

Sock.2785:

With all this knowledge, I could argue that, on a much smaller scale, elementals animated by elementalists are also corrupted by their summoners: elementals’ minds are way inferior to that of the spellcasters who animated them, giving to the latter control over them.

There are a vast number of differences between elementals and destroyers. For starters, the hive mind. Elementals are controlled, but do not have a telepathic link to the will of the elementalist.

Secondly, they are of the natural elements, while the Elder Dragons’ versions are all unique variations – Jormag’s ice, for example, is black and blue and shimmers (very akin to the compressed ice of a glacier’s underside which comes out a dark blue, but it seems to be liquid beneath the exterior coating with how it moves).

Thirdly, and by far most importantly, the elementals are created from the elements without change. Dragon corruption always results in a material changing, even if the material is of the same as the corruption form – e.g., ice being corrupted by Jormag looks drastically different just as lava being corrupted by Primordus does between before and after.

Sock.2785:

With the human gods we come in contact with an example of corruption. Let’s consider Grenth with the Seven Reapers and Abaddon with the margonites: unlike elder dragons, they don’t force their will over beings; they instead reward those who prove loyal and worthy by imbuing (blessing) them with their respective kinds of magic. This process could anyway provide the corrupted with a deeper connection to the respective god’s mind.

Another example of corruption would be Shiro with the Shiro’ken: abusing his powers as an Envoy, he summoned back to the mortal world spirits of departed mortals, provided said spirits with a mortal body and forced them to his service (bound spirits).

While the Margonites case does seem irrely similar to dragon corruption (like the Foefire and Rite of the Great Dwarf), the reapers does not. They are souls, simple as that. Their appearance no more unique than the Shock Phantoms and other similar soul-based undead of GW1.

Similarly, the Shiro’ken are by no means corruption either. Corruption is the change of materials from one form to another at its purest sense. They are binding souls into constructs that Shiro controls – this is no different than what the mursaat did with soul batteries, or what necromancers do with the more advanced necromancy. This does not affect the victim’s mind and it does not change the material’s composition.

Sock.2785:

The magic used by every single being, from the various races up to the most powerful entities, such as the Elder Dragons, is the same and comes from the same source: the various natural aspects of magic, mostly visible flowing through the ley lines.

I would question this. If this were the case then why would people repeatedly call it “dragon magic” and “draconic energies”?

Similar with the gods – they had fire magic, ice magic, etc. but their magic is repeatedly called “divine magic”. This implies that there are three overarching forms of magic which gets divided into the same or similar “spectrums” – ley line, divine, and draconic – arguably a fourth kind too (Mists).

Sock.2785:

Let’s consider Jormag, the Elder Ice Dragon: the immense amount of Ice Magic he absorbed not only transformed his physical appearance but granted him the ability to imbue other beings with this magic, transforming them and exposing them to his mind.

Nothing says Jormag’s appearance is icy…

While probable given Zhaitan and Mordremoth, not definite. After all, there was nothing in Primordus’ appearance in GW1 that screamed “Fire” and nothing in Kralkatorrik’s appearance in GW1 that screamed “Crystal”.

Sock.2785:

While the Sons of Svanir worship Jormag, their minds aren’t really subjugated until their bodies are imbued with the dragon’s magic; as we can witness in the personal story step Mightier than the Sword the Sons of Svanir flee from their corrupted brother, Steag Frostbeard:

Steag Frostbeard: The Dragon’s Blood blade cannot be defeated! I will destroy you!
Son of Svanir: Run! He’s lost his mind! The sword will turn us all into monsters!

More than anything, I think the corruption regards the minds.

Slight caveat:

Many Sons of Svanir can control icebrood. Such as in their second largest stronghold of The Barrowstead or within Honor of the Waves.

Sock.2785:

Let’s consider what Zhaitan did with King Reza: the Elder Undead Dragon firstly needed to imbue his body with death magic (possibly shadow magic too), transforming it, making it vulnerable to its influence; once the body was corrupted, it proceeded to subjugate Reza’s mind and ultimately control it, constraining it to persecute its will (it’s worth noting that this “mind corruption” will last even after the dragon’s death). Ultimately, only Caladbolg was able to cleanse Reza’s mind. To add on this, both Twitchy, the purified Undead Chicken, and Glint retained their corrupted body once their mind was cleansed.

I don’t think Reza’s mind was ever subjugated given the dialogue. It seemed more like in that case, the body was a prison with its own personality. Unlike the Legendary Eye of Zhaitan in Straits, the Sovereign Eye never goes claiming to be a king of Orr.

Sock.2785:

So, the “sphere of influence” is the aspect of magic an Elder Dragon is able to impose its will on; before the equilibrium was broken, before Mordremoth and Zhaitan died, these “spheres” were finely distributed between the Elder Dragons (as they had countless millennia to adjust).

Or so we presume. The Elder Dragons may have 2 spheres of influence each, but that doesn’t mean that there are only 12 spheres of influence. It may be that the rest were either taken out of the equation (Bloodstones, maybe krait obelisks and other things too) or were too divided among the Elder Dragons to be considered by the Priory a “third sphere of influence”.

-bloody kitten of body length-

Neat design and concept.

I did notice an error in your teaser pictures though. The Dragonspawn was killed in 1319 AE, not 1320.

That depends on how you define corruption, really. Ultimately, as far as we know and by all presentation, it’s just magic specified to that sphere of influence. But Elder Dragons are malignant and change things harmfully to the subject, while the purified minions/champions (Glint, Pale Tree, etc.) use non-harmful magic that can be used without altering those touched by the magic (such as with Zephyrite crystals holding Glint’s magic). Hard to say whether the “purified magic” transforms or creates things though, as Elder Dragon corruption never really creates (only possible case is Mordremoth’s plants, but even then, it seems to me to be more of changing local animal/plantlife and expanding what’s been corrupted).

Daniel Handler.4816:

Which is exactly what ritualists are doing. Controlling the magic of the four schools through a servitor. There is no “spirit magic”.

Just so that it’s clear: what drax is calling “spirit magic” is “controlling […] a servitor”.

“Spirit magic” is the manipulation of the Mists that includes using a spirit’s own abilities of magic, which in turn allows ritualists to effectively bypass the “one school per individual” limitation (or two schools, as it had become by GW1’s time).

Daniel Handler.4816:

The powers of celestial spirits, spirits of the wild, ghosts, etc are too variant to treat them as one unified magic. Rather they are entities that can perform several acts of magic.

No one said that Spirits of the Wild were included, but honestly, they’re not too variant at all. They’re all souls. And if ritualists and revenants’ magic is, fundamentally, the “manipulation of the Mists” that includes “the control of, and borrowing the power of, spirits” then whether the spirits are Celestial, normal, or Of The Wild, they’re still spirits and it’s still the control and borrowing power of spirits.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Look at the Dragons. Several can access the mist without relying on ritual.

• Zhaitan creates sapient undead, corrupts several ghosts, and a reaper of grenth. They are not a ritualist.
• Mordremoth accesses the dream. They are not a ritualist.
• Jormag forces a havroun into allowing him access the mist. There are not a ritualist.

Zhaitan doesn’t corrupt a reaper of grenth. He did steal souls from the Underworld, but we’re not sure how. And havrouns by definition would be using “spirit magic” whether or not they’re ritualists.

You seem stuck in the mindset that “ritualist magic is unique unto them” and that “ritualist magic can only take form in what ritualists do” when neither of those are true.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Accessing otherwordly energies/spirits has nothing to do with a fifth school. Its just that all interact with said entities, as well as energies in general, in different ways.

None of the four schools – which are not the whole of magic, I will add, as no school deals with plant magic like Mordremoth – interact with accessing otherworldly energies or spirits.

Ergo, the ability to do so comes outside the schools.

Whether they take the form of ritualists or revenants or what Dessi does is another matter entirely.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Also you are incorrect. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Bloodsong was not a spirit weapon.

Take out all things related to spirits or the Mists in general, and all that remains are healing spells for ritualists.

You’re constantly going back to spirits and their magic.

Daniel Handler.4816:

@konig
The world’s are islands floating in aether connected through the rift. Necromancers channel the ice abilities of death and their ice is as comparable to water magic as holy fire is to fire.
And though it may be associated with no more healer philosophies, preservation mixed the most with the other schools.

I’m going to leave the discussion between you and drax be for the moment as I’m getting pressed for time.

Worlds aren’t “islands” first off – when people talk about “islands in the Mists” they’re talking about things like the PvP arenas, WvW borderlands, or Fractals of the Mists areas – in lore, all three of those are the same. Worlds are much larger and much more stable.

Secondly, they’re not “floating in aether” but rather floating in the Mists’ protomatter. And even then, it’s not the protomatter (or aether) that connects worlds, but another location that is “The Rift”, which is pretty much a “world between worlds” kind of set up.

Either way, necromancers do not reach out to other dimensions, let alone necessarily use aether to do so – or rather, raw aether.

As for necromancer’s ice being comparable to water magic as holy fire is to fire magic: I’m not so sure about that. Not everything about necromancy is about death, keep in mind, and some is about shadow. Darkness in of itself is cold because of the lack of light. Coldness creates frost and in turn ice, by soliding water molecules in the air.

For all we know, water magic from elementalists is just taking those water molecules and expanding and combining them, or taking the heat out of them to make ice.

Which would mean both are the same function. One is just a bit indirect.

As for “preservation mixed the most” – maybe, but I’ll just refer to what drax said since his argument mirrors mine.

Animism.9803:

I mean more a shadow of what they were in relation to how he acts, as they aren’t exactly interested in communication with other races, yet as you say he is tricking the commander. I just felt his explanations were overboard for a race with the biggest superiority complex ever. Even Rytlock is more cynical.

I don’t know where you got that, but nothing ever said they “aren’t exactly interested in communication with other races”.

The fact that they communicated with the Seers/Forgotten/dwarves/jotun and later humans rather disproves you, doesn’kitten

Animism.9803:

I’d be interested to know if the Seer’s protection against the Mursaat was passed on beyond that of Prophecies, but I would assume not. Without it, could he not simply slaughter every race on Tyria?

In War in Kryta, Zinn created a new version of protection from Spectral Agony, dubbed Spectral Infusion – after WiK, he continued research on it, and Taimi found said research, adapted it slightly, and presented it to the Commander. Thus Ancient Magics Tier 1 mastery was born.

The Commander already has an advanced form of that spectral agony defense, provided with lore explanation and ties to GW1.

Animism.9803:

I still find it hard to believe that such an intelligent (can’t forget cowardly!) species would go to their end in such a way. It’s like the Children of the Forest in G.o.T! For such a clever race, it’s seems impossible for some to not have survived in another place. Maybe they fled to another continent? An unknown continent, or deep into the mists where the destroyers can’t catch them in time.

The titans hunted the mursaat down. It’s implied that they had a natural defense to spectral agony, like the eidolon did, and could see into the spirit realm (since they themselves were made of spirits) which is implied to be where the mursaat go to become invisible.

It makes perfect sense for the mursaat, who relied almost exclusively on spectral agony and their ‘invisibility’, to be wiped out by a massive and powerful army that had a natural defense/advantage on both.

Not all of them were wiped out, mind you, but so far that number of survivors of the great mursaat purge at the hands of the titans and Prophecies PC (who wiped out most of their military in the mursaat’s attempt to defend the Door of Komalie) was limited to 8… and 7 died in War in Kryta.

Tell that to the NPCs at Tequatl. Or the freshly made risen in Arah.

Zhaitan died, but his corruption was spread through his champions still.

Maybe new corruption couldn’t be made – we’re not sure – but it still existed, and new minions were still being made.

We don’t really know the definitions of any school of magic. ArenaNet has never really explored that, and now with (easily) arguable retcons, even GW1 professions could have had a mixing of schools with non-bloodstone magic.

I’m not sure where you got “aether connecting worlds/dimensions” but honestly, I’d say all four schools do multiple things with aether.

After all, necromancers conjure frost and darkness from nowhere, and mesmers create solidified (but weak) fractured light (illusions).

And about professions using more healing in their magic now, keep in mind that bloodstone magic (thus the four schools) have severely weakened over the millennia and has been partially (and largely) suppressed by the magic leaked out from the Elder Dragons. Meaning professions aren’t just using Preservation/Denial/Aggression/Destruction now but also the spectrum that ley-energy is made of – or rather, the rest of the spectrum.

It was sealed when Wynne entered, actually. She had the key – never explained how she got it or why though – which allowed her, Caithe, and Faolain access (and later, Caithe again). We did not have a key so we did a little work around with divine fire.

As I said before transformation magic existed long before dervishes even existed.

I would argue that ritualists are preservation + mists magic, personally, as the spells that don’t seem to relate to spirits and rifts are healing magic. They were also, alongside paragons and monks, merged into guardians in lore – would make sense all three were of the same school of magic.

I agree dervishes are Destruction; I’d argue rangers went into that school too, if any.

I would argue flash enchantments being restricted to dervishes is a mechanical limitation, not a lore one of their school – same with conjuring weapons (after all we see guardians do such) or transformations. I would not attribute shifting attunements to flash enchantments at all.

Animism.9803:

So…

The destroyers are of a hive mind to the Great Destroyer, under influence of Primordus.
The dwarves invoked the great dwarf to beat the Great Destroyer at the end of EOTN, ending the destroyers, and in turn ending their species.

How are there destroyers in the LS3 E2 scene?

Made a new Great Destroyer? or what.. Poor little buggers died for nothing?

You misunderstand.

All dragon minions have a hive mind under the Elder Dragon, but it is the dragon champions that direct them. When the Elder Dragons are sleeping, they have even less control over their minions, though their hive mind and enslavement of will still functions. In GW1, the Great Destroyer was the only dragon champion (for Primordus) that was around – so with its death the Destroyers became effectively mindless as they usually are. In GW2, any time a dragon champion is killed, the nearby dragon minions become effectively mindless until they wander near another dragon champion (and when assaults are happening, they retreat with no coordination).

Primordus has been awake for 200 years. In just 100 years, Zhaitan created hundreds of dragon champions. We know that Primordus had created the Destroyer of Life, Destroyer Queen, and Destroyer of Worlds that were all destroyed, but there are no doubt hundreds of more destroyer dragon champions out there.

I would argue that the Molten Dominator would be one such dragon champion leading some destroyers.

Animism.9803:

P.S I’m glad on returning to find that the Mursaat have been reintroduced, even if as a shadow of what they should be.

“Should be”? They were brought to nigh extinction in GW1. If they had returned in great numbers, it would be lore that doesn’t make sense.

Animism.9803:

The mursaat are the most powerful ancient race aside from dragons as far as I know, only caring about their own survival as a merit to their intelligence, fleeing from the world as they would be unable to defeat the dragons. I seriously expect the character to betray everyone upon gaining some protection to the dragons, control or power over, or it doesn’t fit the race at all. This guy should be in the scene essentially bored with such menial conversation, giving short logical answers.

I agree until the end – mursaat were never “essentially bored with such menial conversation” and if Lazarus’ intention is to trick the Commander than giving full fledged conversations is a necessity to make the plot make sense.

Animism.9803:

Randulf.7614:

Primordus can create Destroyers at any time. They never went extinct.

But they were a hive mind under The Great Destroyer.
Think of TGD as central command, Primordus the big bad boss.

Can’t exactly have hive-troops without a controller, which was implied to be TGD and not Primordus, unless the rules of speciation have suddenly changed to reintroduce the race for the sake of it.

Better analogy:

Think of Primordus as the central command, and the Great Destroyer – and all the other dragon champions – as nodes that relay those commands with clarity.

Elder Dragons are the ultimate controller. Dragon champions just do direct, short range, controls

In theory, any could, using the Inquest’s methods.

But they still spread corruption, and create new minions which would not be under control until those devices that allowed the Inquest to control them are placed on them (all Dominated Risen have asuran devices implanted onto them).

It would be really hard to control the whole, and the goal is to be rid of the dragon corruption entirely.

It’s like saying “we have seized an enemy’s nuclear warhead, so can we use it against the remaining enemies?”

Sure, you can. But you sure as hell don’t want to – unless you have no care for the landscape being usable for hundreds of years.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I think it depends on whether they were aware at the time that monk magic wasn’t solely from the gods, which in turn boils down to an individual’s interpretation of monks and dervishes using ‘prayers’ instead of magic. If they had a sound grasp on the fact that the praying is just their specific way of tapping into the magic and not necessarily the only way to do so, it’d be as you say.

People of the time could believe that monks’ power came directly from the gods, and solely, while still accepting that other races have healing magic that doesn’t.

There’s never any mention about non-humans healing folks praying to the gods they hate (be it Stone Summit, charr, or other). So I’d argue that if it isn’t brought up, there’s no common case of folks getting all riled up over charr who hate the gods using the gods’ magic. Or thinking them ignorant and stupid about it.

1. Yes, it was, though it was largely left in the air (never explicitly mentioned, just heavily implied) until HoT promotions.

2. Because the golden structures within the cave were Forgotten/Exalted outposts. They had more structures than just Tarir/Auric Basin – we see some in Dragon’s Stand too. But it was largely just a plot device to give us a reason why not to see that final vision (and in turn the grand reveal) until the eighth release (honestly, everything about Caithe taking the egg and chasing her feels like it was done for the primary purpose of keeping the Commander from the Pact Fleet, creating that ‘dramatic reveal’ for an ending, and stalling for time). Further, the golden structures in the cave were made to be a teaser of Tarir and the Exalted’s role in HoT.

3. There’s plot holes everywhere Scarlet is concerned – as well as retcons. Going to have to be more specific if you want to talk about them.

I think that if Mordremoth can whisper thoughts in such a way the sylvari think its their own thoughts, then he can make his whispers mimic the Wyld/Dark Hunts too.

Dragon corruption is definitely more than just mental suppression. Even ignoring the fact that bodies physically change, there is the fact that with the exception of Mordremoth’s hold over sylvari, all dragon corruption completely and utterly removes free will. That’s more than just “a strong mind oppressing and negating someone else’s mind” – the mind is there, but not their ability to deny the Elder Dragon.

Mordremoth’s “call” isn’t like a suggestion. It’s an implanted thought presented as the individual’s own thought. Like when you rewrite the Geth Heretics’ thought process in ME2. On the other hand, Wyld/Dark Hunts are visions and drives to do something.

The end of the journal doesn’t really end with her refuting Mordremoth, but rather that she must learn about Mordremoth, from Mordremoth. That’s what she seems to be meaning by “I must know more. I must confront it and put an end to this madness.”

I don’t think the creation of the Toxic Alliance is Scarlet’s own. The tower itself is hinted to have been sapient, the entire thing deals with mental magic, the arc had Mordremoth’s theme first appear. Further, we were told (out of game) that the Toxic Krait’s minds were permanently altered and that’s why they showed up in LA. Further (again), at Overlake Haven the Toxic Alliance’s actions are compared to dragon corruption.

Honestly, I was expecting the Toxic Alliance to show up in HoT.

And it seems that Mordremoth at least takes credit for Scarlet’s actions and ideas when talking to her (as shown in the finale of S1).

Honestly, there’s nothing that really indicates that Scarlet was ever wanting to fight Mordremoth.

@Mem: The elementalist conjure weapons seems more like an evolution to the Conjure Fire, Conjure Ice, etc. of GW1 skills which were enchantments that boosted fire/ice/etc. damage when using a weapon that dealt said damage.

@Daniel: Nature spirits are not undead – they are, after all, just spirits. And spirits are not undead.

No. Death shroud utilizes life force, and transformations in general are older than dervishes (which were only a few hundred years old by GW1’s time, and we have transformations happening in the scriptures of melandru, in the druids, and elsewhere). And speaking of druids – if the ranger Druid specialization does derive from the culture, then the Celestial Avatar likely derives more from their magic than dervishes, and there were no dervishes in Tyria until post-Nightfall, over a century after the druids disappeared.

As for charr using Dwayna’s Kiss – this is purely mechanical. They’d be using magic that mirrors that spell, not a spell that they know named as Dwayna’s Kiss. They’d be perturbed by any charr using a spell named after their enemies.

I was never referring to the name change. That very clearly happened when she stepped out of the machine, which was long before she fell to Mordremoth (she entered the machine around 1320, given the journals, but fell to Mordremoth in late 1322/early 1323).

The initial point, however, is that her study of ley energy came, by all indication, after she fell to Mordremoth in late 1322/early 1323. Meaning that her research into ley energy was not a means to combat Mordremoth.

Nor is there any real indication that she was combating Mordremoth beyond claim that her actions are her own – she tries to convince herself time and time again that the actions she was doing was because she chose to do them, not because Mordremoth subconsciously commanded her to. That’s the only combating there is. Which is the intentional irony and psychological horror of Scarlet’s character.

How she communicated with Mordremoth is irrelevant to my original point and yours. Though I would argue that all indication shows that Aerin and Scarlet did communicate similarly, with the noticeable exception that Aerin did so after Mordremoth’s awakening thus there was a stronger link between the two than between Scarlet and Mordremoth.

It is very clear how long she resisted: for fewer than 2 years. She succumbed by the end of 1322, and had first interacted in or after 1320.

And… why bring up Wyld/Dark Hunts? They’re not mentioned at all in this thread. By anyone but you just now. :P Are you mixing up discussions (either way, I’d argue that Mordremoth’s call is different as said “call” is Mordy whispering thoughts in such a way that the sylvari hear them as their own thoughts – as evident strongest by Occam in Dragon’s Stand/Prisoners of the Dragon, as well as Scarlet – while the Hunts are obvious orders for them and not an attempt to trick an individual into believing that they came up with the idea of what to do on their own – there’s a vast difference in that).

It seems pretty clear she fell to Mordremoth.

Control of my world, of myself, is slipping through my hands. And yet, I’m no longer scared.

Control of herself “slipping through [her] hands” is falling to Mordremoth’s control.

And “referring to herself as Scarlet Briar”? The journal doesn’t mention that.

For the record, I’m referring to this journal: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scarlet_Briar's_Journal

Which is also voiced and have a very clear difference in the end than to the beginning.

And we do see Scarlet talk to Mordremoth:

Scarlet Briar: Ever since I came out of Omadd’s machine, you’ve been taking credit for my ideas. They are mine! Not yours.
Scarlet Briar: Let me be clear. I’m not doing this for you; I’m doing it for me. Nobody tells me what to do. Not ever.
Scarlet Briar: It’s not true. None of it. I don’t have to listen to you. Get out of my head!

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Dead_End:_A_Study_in_Scarlet

Scarlet Briar: Shut up! I can’t hear myself think! 3.14159. Yes, lovely.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defeat_Scarlet's_Prime_Hologram_before_the_defenses_activate

Of course, this rather conflicts with the journal (but then again, what doesn’t conflict with Scarlet?) and implies that Mordremoth didn’t have at least full control, which given the Mordrem Guard in Buried Insight isn’t too hard to believe. It’s likely that, like that individual, she was ‘far enough away’ from Mordremoth’s telepathy some of the time to ‘think for herself’ – but she never really fought against Mordremoth, except for the claim of her actions being her own or piloted by Mordremoth.

I’ll take #83. I’ll be at the event on Konig Amad.

Was making an art piece but then my week become busy so didn’t complete. :<

Amaimon.7823:

Btw, Konig. What is your stance on the thought that Zhu Hanuku might be the DSD champion?

It’s a kraken. Kraken are natural creatures in the world.

It’s also a spirit, which no dragon minion seems to have. Zhu Hanuku seems more likely to be a Spirit of the Wild than a dragon minion.

Just because it has tentacles and lives/used to live in water doesn’t tie it to the deep sea dragon.

By all evidence, the DSD should have woken far to the west of the Battle Isles/Cantha. Of course, whether ArenaNet would keep to the semi-obscure lore of the seas between Elona and Cantha being shallow, or the logic of quaggan/karka/krait landing elsewhere than the Sea of Sorrows if the DSD was anywhere but southwest of Tyria, is beyond anyone’s guess.

Daniel Handler.4816:

- ZH was immortal by human standards. He lived in the Jade Sea, and it was the jade wind that made him so weak they could ‘kill’ him with a powerful magical artifact, but he kept coming back. ZH being so strong that at his weakest he couldnt be killed by a magical artifact might hint hes at the level of an elder dragon champion.

There isn’t a single dragon champion nearly that powerful.

Sock.2785:

Personally, a major slice of the fault has to be attributed to the Pact, Edge of Destiny and the PC for not knowing what the destruction of an Elder Dragon (specifically Zhaitan) would have resulted into for Tyria.
Regarding Scarlet, one thing is worth remembering: even though at the end it looks like Mordremoth succeded in subjugating her, we know from Scarlet’s Journal that she was determined to “[…] know more […] and put an end to this madness”. So, initially, the whole study of the ley lines might have been intended as a way of destroying the dark entity who kept calling, taunting and possessing her (since we don’t know if the Elder Dragons ever use to feast directly from the ley lines and if it’s a good idea).

Keep note that the journal was taking place over 21-23 AE and ends with her falling to Mordremoth, and all of her ley line studies as we know it were either long before or well after (depending on whether she went to Dry Top carrying all those old journals and holo-diaries or had made them there; if she made them there then she was there before entering the machine in the first place, but if she carried them there for some contrived reasons, it would have been more recent and likely in 24/25 – the presence of the machine shows that she returned for sure, and the familiarity from the villagers indicate that she likely showed up in 24/25 – well after she gave in to Mordremoth).

Size change between games would be the second likely explanation I’d take, and was going to mention but I would still argue that “size of important villains” is still strong (even if Lazarus is now claiming to be an ally, when he was introduced he wasn’t and they wouldn’t change his size, most likely, between such).

And I think Taidha is larger, just not that much larger and thus is still closer to norn/charr sized rather than human sized. But it’s been a while since I fought that boring boss so I may misremember.

Amaimon.7823:

He was, wasnt he. Didnt he make a big deal of tearing himself into pieces and storing them in white mantle chiefs. To be reunited in the current bloodstone raid?

He reformed himself in the end of the event chain. It’s also at that moment that we caused damage to the fragment within the justiciar we were trying to save (and failed to), which caused the entire need for Lazarus to be “resurrercted” in the first place, and was also when Lazarus swore eternal revenge against asura- and mankind.

Daniel Handler.4816:

@konig we know dragons corrupt using unique dragon energy. To stop corruption you have to stop energy either from binding or from flowing.

I’m not quite sure what your argument here is. We know that preventing dragon corruption is fully possible – Exalted and the Forgotten’s magic do exactly this.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Regardless do you believe Mordremoth can attach minions to the Dream?

If so why is the SotD the only one we see?
If not why can’t he?

I’d say it’s more likely that he cannot, given that by all indication no mordrem is. The reason I would argue is that the Dream is, simply put, not part of his sphere of influence. It’s not within the realm of mind.

By all indication, the Dream is a place, perhaps a sapient location even, and metaphysical at that. The Dream in whole is not too dissimilar in description and function from the Mists, that it wouldn’t surprise me if the Dream is a piece of the Mists, or of similar makeup.

The question is more: why is the Shadow of the Dragon from the Dream? The answer, in my opinion, could be one of two things. Either the Shadow of the Dragon met in the Dream is not the same as the one met in Tyria – that Mordremoth saw the Dream shadow and thought it would be a good psychological attack to use it on sylvari – or that it originally was not a mordrem and Mordremoth corrupted it somehow.

The first seems more likely, especially given how different the Shadow of the Dragon looks from your standard mordrem… Or any mordrem. It looks closer to sylvari and the Pale Tree than to mordrem.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Necromancers most definitely can have elemental minions.
Palawa Joko has undead elementals. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Carven_Effigy
And the Djinn powered Iron Forgeman are bound by necromancers
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Rage_Binder

In the former case, as drax brings up there’s the case of mechanics that could interfere with lore. Looking at the effigies, they look like sarcophagi and are very clearly constructed, which may be where they come as elementals (there was no “Construct” mechanical race in GW1).

In the case of the Iron Forgeman being bound by necromancers, I wouldn’t say that they controlled the djinn at all. It seemed more like they were, well, binding the djinn to the Iron Forgeman. Which is an entirely different spectrum.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Also active communication is not a required part of the definition for group mind. Only that the consciousness came from a single entity. And Modremoth’s mind is a hive mind and a metaphysical location, so I don’t see your point.

Except that Mordremoth’s mind isn’t really a metaphyiscal location. We fight him in the Dream – that’s the location, not Mordremoth’s mind – which is somehow connected to Mordremoth. His mind in the Dream is that giant shadow, the avatar, and the big brain we fight atop of. It’s just within the Dream, but isn’t the Dream.

Mordremoth does have a hive mind, but this is different from the Dream.

Daniel Handler.4816:

However I have edited the OP so to take out the contentious aspect of #2. Do you have any opinion on mysticism becoming public once atheist guardians became a thing. And do you agree the soul is made of dust?

Thing is that “Atheist guardians” and monks was always a thing – see the charr.

And souls being made of dust is a purely mechanical thing. In GW1, piles of glittering dust is the “default salvage item” because (nearly) everything could be ground down to it (I am paraphrasing Joe Kimmes, who told me this in one-on-one conversation one day back in GW1). They likely continued this trend in GW2 – if it doesn’t make sense for it to drop blood, bone, claw, fang, totems, then it drops dust.

Ectoplasm salvaging into dust was done for purely economical reasons – Crystalline Dust was too expensive, and Ectoplasm too cheap.

Rognik.2579:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

and what we’re told is literally “the Inquest are exposing subjects to various/multiple dragon energies”.

Did my research this time, so I’m a bit more prepared. They don’t just say “dragon energies”, they say concentrated dragon energies, which means it is at an intensity not normally found out in the world. It’s a bit like the difference between laser pointer and a laser beam; one has a lot more effect than the other.

Another thing seen in the Crucible is a fleshy creature turn into a destroyer. From everything I’ve heard, destroyers are made from the molten rock itself, not corrupted life. If that can happen, isn’t it at least slightly possible that the Inquest can make corrupted dragon creatures that not even the dragons themselves could?

You are now saying the Elder Dragons are unable to give a concentrated corruption. But the personal story proves you wrong:

Trahearne: The dragon must have distilled its essence. Pure necrotic power, in concentrated form.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ossuary_of_Unquiet_Dead

Using concentrated corruption is exactly what Zhaitan does at his “minion factories”.

Ultimately, I think all that it means by “concentrated dragon energy” is just “pure corruption with little else”. And I’d say that most, if not all, corruption done by the Elder Dragon itself would be considered such.

perilisk.1874:

I’m not sure that the Dragons are getting ahold of the other dragon’s energy, so much as they are getting part of the pool of raw energy that the other dragon used to get (could be a semantics issue). Meaning, the new Destroyers have “Death” and “Nature” energies, not “Zhaitan” and “Mordremoth” energies. The energy is just a basic part of nature, the corruption is more of an organism that is attuned to a particular spectrum. Primordus will might create planty Destroyers, but he won’t make fiery Mordrem.

This becomes a tricky subject that begs a question we don’t know the answer to:

Is dragon corruption unique to the dragon or to “part of the magical spectrum”. Would death corruption done by Zhaitan result the same as death corruption done by Primordus without influence of plant or fire?

Tiami’s dialogue would imply yes, but I’m not so sure much of what she says in that moment is accurate (see my argument about Mordremoth using death magic elsewhere).

Everything “bad” that Scarlet did was directly or indirectly caused by Mordremoth influence her.

So technically, “it’s all Mordremoth’s fault”.

Spectral.1425:

Mordremoth dying (Technically bad, wakes up other Elder Dragons)
-snip-
Primordus waking up (Via ley energy sent out from Mordremoth dying)
Jormag waking up
(Maybe) Kralkatorrik waking up
(Maybe) Deep Sea Dragon waking up

Mordremoth was the last Elder Dragon to wake up. Waking order was: Primordus, DSD, Jormag, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, Mordremoth.

Primordus and Jormag just became active – but they were active back in 1320 AE already, and Jormag, especially, was ramping up his activity since 1325 AE at the latest.

Elder Dragons have periods of activity and inactivity after waking. Zhaitan went through three known phases of activity before GW2, not counting when he woke up.

Yeah, the advancement of asura magitech since Rata Novus’ days is even mocked upon in the Rata Novus meta chain when H.O.X. presents itself as a ‘state of the art’ golem, and Zildi laughs saying she had something far more advanced as a toy when she was young or the like (the two listing actual golem processors or something too).

Of course, M.O.X. was something that doesn’t seem to exist in today’s golems either: dual-crystal processor.

And do keep note that some golems actually are a step back, as presented in Edge of Destiny. Though whether the lacking of heads is a downgrade is questionable, I suppose… but only siege golems have heads now, and they’re the strongest golems around so…

Technically we don’t know that’s what being Chosen meant. The term hasn’t been used – ever – since Prophecies, with the exception of the ghosts in GW2. It’s only used in relation of the Flameseeker Prophecies themselves as well, as being those meant to defeat the mursaat, or in reference to what the White Mantle say they’re looking for when using the Eye of Janthir.

We cannot be certain that the lines about magical capabilities or the ability to Ascend is what makes someone “Chosen” (or vise versa). For all we know, the only ones to be “Chosen” are those who would kill Khilbron (and do all that other stuff) and that being magically adept is unrelated to being Chosen or not.

In GW1, bosses and boss-like foes were always much bigger than their standard counterparts.

In GW2, veterans are larger than normal foes, champions larger than veterans, and legendary foes larger than champions (elite foes are overlooked in the size-increase due to their original purpose as being dungeon-only regulars).

Lazarus is a legendary rank, thus gets upscaled a bit in size.

Scarlet and many other bosses during the Scarlet Invasions were the same, being much larger than normal NPCs of that race, or in Scarlet’s case being larger than when she was in story instances.

This is all just important foe NPCs being upscaled so that they can be more easily seen, something often done in MMOs.

I mean, just go look at Adelbern in the dungeon. He’s taller than norn. Or the norn bosses in HotW – they’re about the size of necromancers’ Lich Form.

@Amaimon: I don’t recall anything saying he was formless after Eye of the North, when we last see him (chronologically) prior to GW2.

Randulf.7614:

The CoE creature seemed like a situation where the Inquest had forced the energies together to make a multi-corrupted being. Therefore it would be seem to be possible that the corruptions would “in the natural state” being immune to each other without the Inquest forcing things with unusual methods.

You are presuming that the Elder Dragons are incapable of “forcing the energies together” and that the Inquest are capable of doing more with the Elder Dragons’ own personal energies than the Elder Dragons themselves.

Which is the common assumption made by those who argue that CoE doesn’t disprove their “fact”. They’re making the argument that the Inquest are altering the dragon energies in such a way that the energies are not the same as what the Elder Dragons use, but there is zero evidence of this, and what we’re told is literally “the Inquest are exposing subjects to various/multiple dragon energies”.

I’ve often seen what the Inquest do as compared to stem cell research and splicing, but it’s far from that because the Inquest aren’t altering the energies by any indication, and if that were that would be negating the entire purpose of the experimentations and studies: trying to control regular dragon minions.

maxwelgm.4315:

I think it is not that safe to assume the orb is tied to the DSD, given the Krait
found it lying around the depths and it wards against Zhaitan’s death spectrum.

I agree that it isn’t absolute, I would just say it’s very likely.

But it wasn’t so much that it was found “lying around the depths”. Sayeh mentions that it is a “thing of legend” and has its own consequences during Wet Work, while dialogue during Striking Off the Chains makes it sound like the krait only recently discovered the orb themselves (or maybe recovered, since they were forced out of their homeland by the DSD).

It’s entirely pausible the White Mantle (and by extension, Lazarus) still have the Eye. They kept sacrificing people on the Bloodstone. Though they’d not need “chosen” they may seek such out just by virtue.

In the raids, Bennet is mentioned as being worthy – it’s entirely possible they’re using the same process of the Eye (with or without it) to determine the “worthy” sacrifices who’d be taken to Salvation Pass for their sacrificing with Bloodstone Shards/on the Bloodstone itself/experiments to make Bloodstone Abominations.

The largos are unlikely to have anything to do with the DSD. They’re an old race based on quaggan interaction. Their lack of being corrupted is no different from the lack of dredge, skritt, centaur, harpy, wurm, grawl, jotun, bat, imp, etc. corrupted variants. It’s just that ArenaNet hasn’t bothered with designing that many dragon minions.

Plus we know that “corruption immunity” doesn’t necessarily mean “dragon minion” – aside from the argument that “dragon minions are immune to other dragons’ corruption” is a flawed and unproven argument that is taken widely as fact, there are multiple cases of things fully unrelated to Elder Dragons that are immune to corruption (stone dwarves, exalted, Forgotten magic, Foefire ghosts, to name the most immediate).

As to the Blue Orb tied to the DSD, highly possible. They gave enough hints – artifact from the ocean depths that has “consequences of its own” is enough of such in of itself. The fact it prevents creation of more risen is not outright reason enough to tie it to the DSD (one has to argue the belief that the Elder Dragons avoid each others’ territories and that the Blue Orb’s presence is marking the immediate area as the DSD’s territory, not that the Blue Orb is actually capable of preventing corruption – or if one argues such, they must also prove the unproven “dragon corruption is immune to other dragons’ corruption” which is pretty much debunked by CoE).

However, the orb being a dragon egg? Highly unlikely. No Elder Dragon has shown interest in procreation – only Glint has, and she has a reason to: she knew she would be killed by Kralkatorrik, but wanted to end the threat of the Elder Dragons without destroying Tyria by unchecked magic. The Elder Dragons has such reasons for such, and as such any creation they’d make would likely be in the form of dragon minions, not offspring.

Rognik.2579:

That isn’t, and I don’t think ever has been, the argument in this thread. I’m saying that once a being has been corrupted, a dragon cannot corrupt it again. All the death-touched and plant-touched destroyers? I’m saying they were only made recently.

I’m not the one who wanted to “clarify” on the topic, y’know.

And here’s the problem with your claim: If that were true, then we’d see old destroyers mixed in with the new ones, since Primordus wouldn’t just destroy all of his older minions just because he can make new and improved ones. This would indicate that he altered all his pre-existing minions (at least those in the area) so that they all got a buff from his new magic.

Rognik.2579:

Why would they? Malyck and his tree didn’t get purified (that we know of). The White Stag didn’t need to be purified. Mordremoth can’t be purified. I see it as a subsection of Mordremoth’s mind bubble. All the higher-intelligent minions are connected to it, but the Dream cordons off the ones from the Pale Tree as opposed to all the other mordrem/sylvari out there.

As for the stag, I admit I got nothing. Either it is the thing that did the purifying, or is the physical anchor on this plain? Honestly, outside of Arthurian legend, I don’t understand the relevance and you’re the only one who ever seems to be bringing it up.

Malyck has to have been purified at some point otherwise he would have been “Hail Mordremoth!” the entire time.

Very, very, VERY few dragon minions are capable of such disguise for an extended period of time. Even among mordrem and Mordrem Guard, they do not think long term subterfuge.

You’re right that the White Stag needn’t be purified, or that Mordremoth cannot be, but you miss the point of listing them entirely:

If the Dream was a remnant of a purification, why would those that were never purified be directly tied (as strongly as the Pale Tree is) to that remnant?

And you’re wrong: none of the higher intelligent mordrem are connected to the Dream. We see one – and only one – mordrem tied to the Dream in any way, shape, or form. The Shadow of the Dragon. The Vinewrath, Faolain, three commanders, octovine – none of them show ties to the Dream.

As to why I keep bringing up the White Stag: because it’s a part of lore, and it’s a major dent in the hypothesis that the Dream is the Mordremoth/mordrem hivemind (even moreso than sylvari outright stating it isn’t a hive mind or telepathy).

Rognik.2579:

And you’re wrong there. The PC’s Wyld Hunt is always to kill a Dragon. All those other things are steps along the way. When a sylvari spawns, they get visions of the future, but that’s different from the hunt.

Funny how you focus on one thing and not the whole. Whether or not I’m wrong about the first bio option being a unique Wyld Hunt (I am fairly sure I’m not), there are all the other sylvari who have Wyld Hunts not related to dragons at all.

Also, it’s outright stated that very few sylvari get a Wyld Hunt when born. And that the vision is the Wyld Hunt. There’s only two things seen in the Dream: memories, and Wyld Hunt visions.

Rognik.2579:

What do you think a Wyld Hunt is?

A singular mission sent by the Dream or Nightmare to do a certain thing via unclear visions which can be ignored.

As opposed to a shared consciousness and will that is very clear, cannot be ignored, and drives the subject’s entire being to fulfill every part of that will as possible

They’re similar on the surface (“orders” from another being), but fairly different at specifics. Like getting a text versus getting an email.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Minions are made from three different methods

• summoning spirits (nightmare fiend)
• reanimating flesh (jagged horror)
• constructs (elementals)
  Necromancers can control them all.

Just going to say… there isn’t a single necromancer that has elementals as minions. There is the theory on Isgarren’s elementals, but that’s just a theory.

Closest you’d get is the Shiro’ken, which are souls bound into constructs of bone and metal, but they’re not controlled by a necromancer.

Daniel Handler.4816:

The Blue Orb analogy is problematic enough.
What would happen if this “blue orb” was attached to the mouth of Zhaitan.
Oil doesn’t have to purify water to mess with fluid dynamics. And I don’t remember saying purifying. Just that a connection would be disadvantageous.

Nothing would happen, because it isn’t like mixing oil and water. The blue orb prevents corruption, but does nothing to purify corruption or cease the dragons’ consumpion of magic.

The only thing that may happen if the Mouth of Zhaitan carried around the Blue Orb would be that unless it had a way to counteract the anti-corruption measures, the Mouth of Zhaitan would find itself unable to corrupt things… but since its purpose was to eat magical artifacts and consume that magic, either it would just consume the Blue Orb’s magic or (should the orb be immune to consumption like the Forgotten artifacts) it would just carry it, not bother trying to corrupt things, and just eat other magical artifacts.

There is no problem in the analogy. Both prevent new corruption from occuring, but neither does anything to influence old corruption.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I’m not missing that. I said, and you just agreed, the Shadow of the Dragon guested in.
If the PC of any race can be sent into the Dream by the Pale Tree, then Mordremoth can send creatures into the Dream without connecting them to the Dream.

Moreover the SotD was clearly disadvantaged anyway. It couldn’t make Mordrem it was forced to make Nightmare. And this might just be because of the tutorial but it was clearly weaker than its irl counterpart, something that doesn’t happen when the Pale Tree guests people into visions etc.

It seems more that the Shadow of the Dragon was born in the Dream, since the Pale Tree states it came from there. So it wouldn’t be “guested in”.

And I definitely put blame on it being a tutorial boss – able to be beaten by doing nothing (literally) – than it being weaker in the Dream. After all, the tutorial bosses are all posed as troublesome for DE members to deal with; the Earth Elemental is said to have “nearly killed Logan Thackeray” and Duke Barradin the same, having wiped out the charr PC’s entire warband (nearly).

Plus, unlike in the Dream, the Shadow of the Dragon was backed by an army of mordrem both times it was fought in Season 2 (who were keeping everyone else mostly occupied).

But point being: if Mordremoth could attach the Dream to all of its minions, there is no reason for it not to. After all, it’s strongest minion came from the Dream.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Regardless the main issue is that you claim its not a hive mind.

Well you are right, it’s not. It’s a group mind. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_mind_(science_fiction)#List_of_non-hive_group_minds

A group mind that protects against hive minds.

It’s not even that. Group minds allow active communication between those part of it. But there is no communication – no telepathy – in the Dream. It is a record of those attached to it, and those actually within it (and not just attached to it) can view this record.

But in addition to this, it is a metaphysical location. Which a group mind lacks.

Just because wikipedia lists sylvari and the Dream as a “non-hive group mind” doesn’t make it so.

Rognik.2579:

No, not technically. The corruption is coming from directly from the dragon, while the Inquest are taking various dragon minions and splicing them together. Think of it like the difference between catching a cold versus having the cold virus injected into you. The first is the way it normally goes, while the second had some other force tamper with the normal method.

You need to replay CoE story. They literally just took test subjects (both dragon minions and non) and shot them with a ray of corrupted energy.

There’s no “splicing them together”.

What they did would be no different than a dragon champion attempting to corrupt another Elder Dragon’s minion. Because it would just be hitting/saturating/whatever’ing them with corrupted energy.

To use your cold analogy: it would be like someone with a cold sneezing on you intentionally, versus someone sticking you in a room with that same cold virus being filtered into the air supply.

Like being bitten by a zombie, or the zombie virus being injected into you.

The method of transfer differs, but what’s given to you is the same, and the result is the same.

Donari.5237:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

What should NOT be added, imo, but are listed a lot in this thread:

• Gifts for legendary crafting; seriously why do people list these? Don’t they count as Linsey’s “definitely not” crafted components?

People are listing the Exploration Gifts which you get just for completing maps. If you’re not 100% sure you’ll never ever ever craft a legendary, they are time consuming enough to gather that you need to hold onto them, which uses a slot for something that you won’t be accessing very often.

I agree that Gifts one only crafts by intent shouldn’t use up Mat Storage, but those HoT Map Gifts and World Completion Gifts can happen to players not specifically going for them.

People are listing all gifts, though. Some more specific than others. I can maybe agree with the mapping ones, but that’s just one slot (two if you map all of HoT and Core). That’s not a big deal at all.

But folks are adding the crafted ones and the dungeon gifts too, which need to be made first. And let’s face it: if you don’t have the space for those gifts, why make/buy them?

More uses for limited-use materials like Watchwork Sprockets, Blade Shards, Foxifre Clusters, Pristine Toxic Spores, etc.

This is the biggest thing for me. Things that go into the material storage should have multiple uses. So those that already are, or are highly likely to go in, should too. If they aren’t to have a lot of usage, like people suspect for the Shards of Endevour, then please remove them instead. This said:

Definitly should be added:

• Blade Shards
• All Doubloons
• Tenebrous Crystals
• Shimmering Crystals
• Scribing Stuff bought from decoration merchant or guild trader – there’s quite a lot, but especially Milling Basins, since every crafting profession uses them (sans Jeweler…)
• Bottle of Elonian Wine
• Philosopher’s Stones
• Mystic Crystals
• Icy Runestones

Maybe should be added (I’m iffy on them – they’re rather limited in use, but they’re long-term hold ons and can gather even after you no longer need them):

• Chak Eggs
• Recovered Metal Plate
• Golden Fractal Relics
• Amalgamated Gemstones
• <Region> Lumber Cores
• Augur’s Stones
• Black Lion Ticket Scraps
• Legendary Insights

What should NOT be added, imo, but are listed a lot in this thread:

• Gifts for legendary crafting (seriously why do people list these? Don’t they count as Linsey’s “definitely not” crafted components?)
• Ambrite Fossils – they have such limited use, and such limited gain, no point.
• Petrified Wood & Bloodstone Rubies (they are not crafting materials. They’re a vendor item. I’d rather them put into the wallet and new vendor items to buy unbound magic made available instead)
• Agony Infusions (they feel more akin to sigils an runes that could be upgraded than actual crafting materials)
• Baubles (shouldn’t be changed due to SAB mechanics)
• Bauble Bubbles (should be put into the wallet)
• Queen’s Gauntlet Ticket (should be put into the wallet)
• Continue Coin (should be put into the wallet)
• Integrated Fractal Matrices (should be put into the wallet; afaik no crafting use)