This entire thread is rather pointless.

ArenaNet themselves have stated that sylvari are dragon minions – not just “to be” dragon minions, but are dragon minions.

I even quoted one of the more easily found situations of them.

If you weren’t here for all the HoT promotions where ArenaNet made this explicitly clear, that’s on you. But you’re just trying to say that “canon lore is not canon” in the end.

Sock.2785:

We know from the fractal that Scarlet shared her knowledge with several Inquest exponents, priorly to the explosion; you make the mistake of assuming nobody else can know about the ley lines (we not knowing does not imply that nobody else in Tyria knows about the ley lines).

The only thing she’s stated to have shared is claiming all the chaos magic was draconic energies. Which counters what’s brought up later, and does not involve the discovery of ley lines.

It was actually Ellen Kiel who spread the knowledge of ley lines.

“Scarlet claimed to have identifies the channels that this magical energy follows as it courses in and around and through the globe. If she’s right, it could be a significant breakthrough.”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Captain_Ellen_Kiel/dialogue#Fractured.21

Kiel wouldn’t be saying it’d be a significant breakthrough if ley lines were known prior to the end of 1326 AE.

Sock.2785:

You also keep assuming these “dragon energies” generate from the dragons (because the physical alteration is unique to them): just because a water spring may generate loads of rivers and lakes, it’s not implied that all the water we see in the world comes from said spring (Zhaitan spreading death magic doesn’t imply that death magic generates from him).

I “keep assuming” because that is what every piece of lore tells us.

That is the very definition of “draconic energies”. Corruptive magic from the Elder Dragons.

I don’t know how to make this any more clear to you.

The term “dragon magic” and “draconic energies” is only and always used in reference to the corrupting magic, the stuff that creates dragon minions. Without. Exception.

Sock.2785:

Regarding the margonites: what I meant was that tyrians in general aren’t able to physically compare a margonite to a dragon minion, since they don’t have access to the former anymore. Still, we know margonites were different, because they weren’t constrained in the mind, and could still choose to abandon Abaddon’s cause if they wanted to.

Honestly, not being able to see a Margonite would not stop people from making an association so long as they had a reliable (to them) description.

If you think people are more logical than that – in either games or in reality – you’re fooling yourself.

Sock.2785:

Regarding the Flame Legion shamans: while they make a heavy use of fire magic, which causes an alteration in their bodies similarly to “physical corruption”, everyone still behaves as an individual; there’s no reason for tyrians to link “dragon corruption” to them. Also, Flame Legion shamans strictly focused on fire magic following a natural specialization process; I really doubt they fiddled around with the ley lines.

Ehhhhh….

Burn, buuurn!

You sure about that?

Sock.2785:

Also, the explosion itself is an indication of the existance of the Anomaly: we now know that upon absorbing too much magical energies these Anomalies will overload and explode;

Explosions can happen for multiple reasons, you know.

Sock.2785:

even though we killed it in the fractal (and we know they dissipate when killed) it still exploded, because that’s what happened in reality, and this fractal was generated with the intention to be an exact reproduction of a past event.

That’s not how fractals work.

Even if a fractal is an exact duplicate, the events change the moment the PCs enter the fractal.

Ree Soesbee: If it was just the actual battle, if it was just a very precise rendition of history, you couldn’t go fight there, you couldn’t do things there. The Mists very much are flexible because they’re like memories – you can go back in your own minds and sort of write someone into a memory where they weren’t there and what would have happened ‘if this person went to the movies with us.’ And the fractals are very simpler, the Mists are very simpler.

Sock.2785:

Frankly, the term chaos itself indicates that the Inquest did not know what they were dealing with. High quantities of magic (1) and ley lines (2) can lead to chaotic (and catastrophic) events, ripping the very fabric of reality.

It may be that high quantities of magic can lead to chaotic situations, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t dealing with a type of magic that specifically deals with altering the order of reality.

You know… Mesmers’ magic?

Kind of why they have a trait line that says “Chaos Magic”…

Sock.2785:

With the Infinite Coil Reactor (successor to Thaumanova’s) they didn’t make the same mistake: they differentiated between the magics drawn and very possibly isolated the ley lines themselves (not drawing them), avoiding chaotic results. Kudu however might still have thought those magics were of the Dragons; we know they aren’t.

You’re now contradicting yourself. Earlier you said they pulled magic from the ley lines to duplicate dragon corruption.

Now you’re saying they didn’t draw from ley lines.

It cannot be both.

Sock.2785:

You base your claims on the assumption that Scarlet is lying: Scarlet says that the Thaumanova Reactor was built on an intersection of ley lines: you assume she’s lying; Scarlet implies that “dragon energies” flow through ley lines: you assume she’s lying; Scarlet told the Inquest they mistook chaos energy for dragon energy: you assume she’s lying. Still she succededly identified and traced ley lines and had understandings of light and dark energies; she knew what she was talking about.

Way to take what I said out of context and way into left field.

I said that Scarlet was lying that the Inquest mistook dragon energy for chaos magic. To say otherwise is to say that four smart individuals, including two that had first hand experience, are wrong. Either Scarlet was lying, or Ellen Kiel, Marjory Delaqua, and two Inquest members were lying. They couldn’t all be telling the truth.

I never said Scarlet lied about Thaumanova being over ley lines – we know this is true per the Season 1 finale cinematic.

I never said anything about Scarlet implying dragon energies running through ley lines – however, I will say now that nothing in her dialogue implies this. She only mentioned that because of the Inquest’s experiments with dragon magic she was able to identify ley lines. Nothing there implies that dragon magic flows through ley lines. For all we know, it could be that the dragon magic was trying to absorb the ley lines, or that it had a noticeable reaction to ley line magic that she was able to trace.

Just because she knew what she was talking about doesn’t mean she was telling the truth.

Sock.2785:

Also, you say nobody ever saw the ley lines when Omadd’s machine makes clear usage of the ley lines.

It makes clear usage of the ley lines after Scarlet moved the machine there.

The Existence of ley lines has long been theorized, and they have had many names. In 1316, a sylvari named Ceara (alias Scarlet Briar) found proof.

Do your research, please.

Ley lines weren’t confirmed until Ceara – as Scarlet Briar – figured it out (I’m fairly certain 1316 is a typo for 1326, given that in 1316 Scarlet would have been with the charr gladium at the time).

Sock.2785:

Until proven otherwise, the bloodstones simply are containers of magic; what’s unclear (to me at least) is if the red crystals’ formation was a designed phenomenon or a natural unavoidable process.

I think I just stated the exact reason to believe that it is proven otherwise. Captain Grumby was killed atop of a bloodstone, yet he is not crazed like those killed atop of the Maguuma Bloodstone.

He is proof that it is proven otherwise.

And we know that Bloodstones were designed – do the Burden of Choice achievement line. The Seers created the Bloodstone via the Shadowstone.

Sock.2785:

There’s more than one way to Ascend. Nothing excludes that the gift the gods gave to Kormir was that of Ascension, (not many other choices on what it could have been)

Nothing suggests it either. There are plenty of other possibilities, the most likely being that it was the reason why Abaddon – a god – couldn’t just instantly kill the group.

Sock.2785:

Regarding the holograms (and light and dark energies): if anything, when Elli says: “magical construction of light emitted by this device on my belt”, it shows that magitech is used to bend and shape light. While they’re powered by magic, it seems holograms are made of light.

If that was the case, they would not be capable of damaging things. Originally they likely were just light, but when Elli and Zott improved it for combat in Orr, the holograms were capable of protecting Elli and attacking risen – just as the holograms she sold to LA that were stolen and reconstructed by Scarlet/Aetherblades.

Sock.2785:

Also, thanks for pointing out the original mention of dark and light energy, it totally slipped from me; this knowledge shows that dark energy and light energy, as intended in GW2, are totally unconnected to what you argue them to be (I wasn’t able to find any mention of light magic and dark magic; all I could find is that necromancers make use of “black magic”. Also, when referring to magic, the term “light” is mostly connected to spells linked to Dwayna, the goddess of air and life. Regarding the GW1 damage types: dark damage is associated to Grenth, chaos damage is associated to Lyssa and holy damage (it is no longer light damage) is associated to Dwayna).

It doesn’t really show much of anything, except that they exist and that they are different. And certainly don’t show what you argued them to be – nothing even close.

My arguments actually stem from GW1 damage types – necromancers used dark/unholy damage while monks/paragons used holy damage. In the novels, I believe necromancy is described as dark magic and guardian as light magic as well.

However, I do not ever recall “black magic” being used, ever, and even if it was that – without context – sounds like people thinking it is evil and whatnot, which a lot of folks do think – and has nothing to do with energy type.

Sock.2785:

Then every mesmer is evil. Seriously though, I personally interpreted this as a humorous response to quickly dismiss two separate entities: Abaddon and Kralkatorrik.
Even if, in my view, dark energy (which I associated with purple) is related to evil/bad…

Then you’d call every necromancer evil.

Thing is that we see purple with every Elder Dragons’ corruption to small degrees (sans Primordus). So whether the comment was originally a joke, it has been kept around and remains evident. That said, I think the idea is “all evil has purple hues, but not all purple is evil”.

Sock.2785:

For one, various Mordremoth’s vines emit a typical pink hue (in general purple, since there are many gradations).

Those are always dark purple…

Only bright color there is tied to Mordremoth is lime.

Sock.2785:

I’m not saying (like you imply) that “dragon magic is the magic we use”, I’m saying that the Dragons use the same magic all other magic users do, which is a natural thing;

How is this at all different?

“Elder Dragons use the same magic everyone else uses”

“Dragon magic (Defined as the magic Elder Dragons use) is the same magic we use”

It’s the EXACT SAME THING.

Sock.2785:

Either you believe it or not, that’s not the point: your claim is as viable as mine, since we don’t have a clear answer (obviously I believe mine to be more reasonable).

Baseless conjecture is not the same thing as supported theorycrafting.

There are support for this, despite your claims. There are facts for this topic, despite your claim.

So it isn’t a case of “believe it or not”.

Ended up forgetting to respond to the rest of this so in addition to above…

Sock.2785:

I’m trying to explain how the Dragons were naturally driven to control others’ minds and that the whole corruptive process isn’t their prerogative;

The problem here is that you’re proclaiming all Elder Dragons are the same in their desire to corrupt, but we’re explicitly told that isn’t the case.

Prime example being Jormag: while he does corrupt, he has a preference to only corrupt those who willingly ask for power.

The corruption process is very clearly and explicitly presented as their prerogative. This is what makes Primordus different from Jormag different from Kralkatorrik different from Zhaitan different from Mordremoth.

The corruption process and reasoning behind it.

All Snaff’s research excerpt really states is that you control magic with your thoughts… which is true. It says nothing about overriding one’s free will, whether by magic user or by magic addiction.

Sock.2785:

I’m saying that “dragon energies” are not specific and unique “dragon magics” nor are generated by the Dragons, but are natural things (the whole particles/forces thing) indipendent to them.

Which contradicts every stated fact that we know about draconic energy/dragon magic.

And the fact that you will never, ever hear the term “dragon magic” or “draconic energy” without direct relation to the Elder Dragons.

Sock.2785:

It may not be the exact same research but the knowledge we get when reading that extract from Snaff is that: magic (1) is everywhere; magic (1) tends to ebb and flow into these magical currents, or ley lines (2); mind and magic are linked; it’s possible to manipulate magical elements with the mind (through magitech if one’s mind is not powerful enough or when referring to golemancy).
Manipulating magical elements with the mind is what the Elder Dragons do (and it’s what I’m trying to evidentiate from the beginning: “physical” and “mental” corruption). Each Elder Dragon goes through this mental process, regardless of their “sphere of influence” (what kind of magic they imbue their victims with).
Kudu perverted his old master’s research to make his own dragon champions.
When Logan says: “[Kudu]’s been corrupted by the dragon energies”, Zojja just responds: “it is an improvement”; Kudu is not under any Dragon’s influence even though he’s using these “dragon energies”.

1) Given the history of humanity, it seems very evident that Snaff was simply wrong.

2) There is no mental corruption, just the removal of free will and creation of a mental link (hive mind). Unless this is what you’re referring to with “mental corruption” in which case you’re using a confusing misnomer.

3) To play devil’s advocate: we actually cannot say that Kudu was not under any Elder Dragon’s influence mentally, given that we do not talk to him long enough when he’s been corrupted. Even if he did have his own free will and had no mental link to any Elder Dragon (which I would argue is the case), this is still a case of dragon magic being altered. And still dragon magic not your presented “drawing magic straight from the ley lines”.

Sock.2785:

Magic is and will always be in Tyria’s universe, it does not get destroyed when the Elder Dragons absorb it; you can’t take it out of Tyria’s universe because it’s a fundamental part of said universe. The laws of (magi)physics remain the same even with low levels of magic in the world: the link between the mind and magic is something deeper and more fundamental. To visualize, imagine them to be almost like electricity and magnetism: two faces of the same coin (don’t take this too literally, it’s just a way to show their connection).

You entirely missed the point.

Worlds can exist without magic. History of humanity, where they come from a magicless world, proves this.

You cannot destroy magic – no one argued otherwise – but while Ogden state that Tyria would crumble without magic, that doesn’t make it so given we have a proven case of a world without magic existing for some time (humanity entered the world with no idea what magic was or that it could exist, thus thought the gods created it).

Flamethrower guy could be a White Mantle/Bandit boss, perhaps the new zone’s raid boss being transferred to open world?

Eir gave Magdaer to a smith to reforge. Maybe Braham will be given it once it’s finished being reforged since Eir is now dead. Eir intended to give it to Logan, but he’s kind of out of action for now and Braham has no such ties to bind him to giving the sword to Logan.

In Edge of Destiny, Rytlock was going to attack the fang with Sohothin, but Eir stopped him. Kind of felt like the stopping was forced while Rytlock would strike the fang. I think those weapons could damage it.

So I think Braham will break the fang with Magdaer.

Sock.2785:

Most of what we know about magic and “dragon corruption” comes from our own deductions; it follows that it can be false.

I’m gonna be semi-busy for the next few hours but I want to touch this.

We know a lot about magic and dragon corruption. It isn’t mere deduction. We know that both magic and draconic energy divides into different aspects, we know that draconic energy can mix (as proven by Rising Flames), we know that if it mixes with non-dragon magic (e.g., chaos magic) that it reacts violently, we know that magic consumed by Elder Dragons can become dragon magic though we don’t know the exact how of that.

And that’s just major points.

They don’t update what gets updated from the personal story, which would be the home instances and the DE instances. The rest they’ll update – see Caudecus’ disappearance from the Throne Room in DR or Pale Tree being unconscious (still) since The World Summit in S2.

Jaken.6801:

Yes, at 1:00, however it is much bigger and seems be only partly crystaline. I could be imagining things, though, since it is only a brief moment.

It’s not all that larger. And it’s leaping so it looks taller, but it’s just in mid-air.

There’s nothing unique about its back – just a normal Icebrood Wolf.

Jaken.6801:

@Konig: I am not as familiar with the models. But this was the first time I saw an “undead” Son of Svanir/transformed Norn like that. Similiar to its depiction in the books.

Quite a lot of icebrood actually have a ‘lack of flesh’ situation, but this is easiest seen in the rarest of icebrood models (the one everyone is thinking is new in the trailers) and in the Colossi. Harder to see but you can quite visibly see rib cages and a skull imbedded in the large hunk of ice (as well as a spine along its back). The oversided Icebrood Norn (four legged, uses oakheart frame) is also with a decayed face.

Jaken.6801:

You are right about the Claw of Jormag, but wasn´t this the same design used for the Jormag totems? I was thinking they are building a giant dragon to worship, similiar to what the Norn in Hoelbark did.

I don’t think it’s the same design, but I do think it’s basically a statue of reverence rather than crafting out dragon champions.

Could also be an excavation, though. That they’re uncovering dragon champions from the previous dragonrise…

Jaken.6801:

• Some familiar structures but most importantly, a giant jormag statue, similiar to the ones in Hoelbark, only less clear (jormags sword looks similiar)

That’s a statue of a Claw of Jormag champion. Jormag’s Breath sword is also Claw of Jormag head.

Jaken.6801:

• Some Kodan love and “underwater content?”, so we get some Quaggans maybe? (fitting the new legendary shield?)

There are images with true orca quaggans (unlike the core dark blue quaggans, these are proper black and white like the original lore and the quaggan tonics).

Jaken.6801:

• Green glowing minions, and Ice elemental, Claws of Jormags in the sky, decayed sons of svanir (closer to the books representation?)

The decayed icebrood norn is actually Bjarl the Rampager’s armor-less model from CoE. Been meaning to get a picture of it but never in a group that’s willing to slow attacks on him. The armored version of the model is more commonly used but still rare – seen elsewhere only in the Durmand Priory and quaggan PS, Barrowstead meta (only since the S2 changes), and upscaled Snowden Drifts ley line events.

Jaken.6801:

• a wolf like ice brood, more werewolf like. So maybe some link to Svanir?

Didn’t see this. Got a timestamp?

Building off of old lore without retconing it.

Josh Davis.6015:

Would you want to see any changes to Courtyard before it came back? A new mechanic, perhaps?

Do to Team Deathmatch what you did for Stronghold – have a check for whether you want to queue for it or not.

That’s the best start you can do.

My suggestion would be to make it akin to the Priest Deathmatch of GW1: players respawn until a homebase NPC is killed. Win conditions:

• Kill enemy homebase NPC then wipe out enemy players
• Reach 500 points via kills only
• Time Out win condition: highest NPC health (major bonus to points) + number of kills.

And I would make this the base set up for all Team Deathmatch maps in the future. We have enough Conquest maps, we need more of other game format maps.

Maps, when more are made, can have variances such as:

• Boons like from Temple of the Silent Storm
• NPCs guarding the main one
• Central cap point that triggers an environmental trap on the other team
• Capture the Flag (grab a bundle in the middle of the room then run it back to your homebase NPC for bonus points)
• A nigh invulnerable NPC wandering the map that could easily slaughter solo players (only for the bigger maps) – would add an obstacle to avoid, rather than additional target like Forest of Niflhel’s npcs.

Saiyan.1704:

TDM
3 rounds
Time limit of 5m
Lowest average health team loses the round after time expires

Problem with your suggestion: Folks can just slap on vitality primary gear and have an innate advantage over those who don’t.

The way to fix this would be to just count % of health instead.

What you’re describing with “they looked at what a Mary Sue was and added some counterpoints to it to defend this character” is precisely how Scarlet felt. Lazarus doesn’t feel that way at all.

I mean, hell, everything that you argue makes Lazarus a Mary Sue was added after the character was made and introduced.

And I wouldn’t call Lazarus’ motivations simplistic when we aren’t even sure what they are.

Electro.4173:

Anything is possible, but I doubt it. Unbound Magic is pretty generic. All of the other currencies are rather specific to their respective zones.

I’d say ley line crystals are pretty generic when we’re dealing with so much ley line energy. Same with ley line sparks. Airship Parts/Oil could become used in future Pact Stronghold maps too.

Similarly, Auric Dust/Auric Lumps can be used in any future Forgotten-based maps, especially if we’re going to the Crystal Desert as the “leaks” want us to think.

Electro.4173:

Plus, Unbound Magic isn’t the only currency in BF and EB. You’ve also got Bloodstone Rubies and Petrified Wood, which are zone-specific. Which acts as a “limiter” to keep players who have stockpiled a lot of Unbound Magic from just buying everything without ever needing to do content in that area. The devs don’t want players to be able to bypass content with previous grinding.

Ember Bay also uses karma a lot.

I think karma and old map currencies could be mixed in with smaller-gained “new map currencies” and said “new map currencies” could eventually be used again later on. Like if we go to another Bloodstone map, rather than Unbound Magic we get Blood Rubies + something new. Or heck, even Blood Rubies + Ley Line Crystals + Karma, just to make things interesting.

Personally, I think that would be a better use of the map currency system than just making a new currency every map. That way we don’t end up flooding the wallet so quickly with dozens of unwanted map currencies.

I could easily imagine the reformed Pact’s frontal assault map against Kralkatorrik being Airship Parts + Geodes, for example. Or if they were to bring Lake Doric into the game, I could see that being Bandit Crests + <Something New>.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The point of map currencies is to allow people to work towards long-term goals by farming. That’s actually been a frequent request by the community, because the alternatives are RNG or using coin (the universal unbound currency) or karma (the universal bound currency).

The problem with this argument is that there is no alternative. What’s gained by RNG is still gained by RNG only, and what’s gained by vendors is gained by vendors only.

Given the existence of Zone Green in CoE, it’s pretty clear the Inquest had some inkling of clue given it’s full of the Husks and Hounds gained from their alliance/dealings with the Nightmare Court.

You can delete the thumb right away. The story still progresses normally without it in your inventory.

DaShi.1368:

He’s extremely powerful. He shows up out of nowhere. He has no real role in the story other than to be there. And characters immediately start liking him for no good reason.

I’m usually one for critizing bad writing from Anet right away, but I disagree with this.

Yes, he’s extremely powerful, but technically always was – all mursaat were – though he’s now more powerful.

He may not necessarily come out of nowhere. I think this is meant to be a subtle plot element. If you read Cami’s journals, she mentions the feeling that she’s being watched. There’s two plausible situations:

1) Lazarus was hidden on Ember Bay, watching the asura first then the Pact Commander and followed the PC to Tarir.
2) Lazarus is the reason the shield failed and did this to gain trust.

And the only character who “immediately” likes Lazarus is Marjory, but this is more as an interesting subject to study rather than her new BFF.

• Caudecus was in denial, losing his primary army against someone he thought either myth or permanently incapacitated.
• The Pact is, rather rightfully, distrusting and hostile, only willing to work with Lazarus due to the necessity of the situation.
• The Luminate was ignorant of who Lazarus was at first, but once learning he was mursaat she became just as distrusting and hostile, but differred to the Pact Commander’s judgement as they are the “egg bearer”.
• Marjory’s, as said, the only other one with a reaction which was instantly intrigued by him from the end of Out of the Shadows and was equally (or more) intrigued at the end of Rising Flames. While it makes little sense, IMO, for her to be intrigued by Lazarus she is at least consistent in that.

DaShi.1368:

Guess what the PC said them and we got a direct answer for them. Seriously. This happened. We are forced to like him. The weak protests of the PC are set up to force everyone to accept him.

Weak protests? The only reason why the PC doesn’t attack Lazarus on sight is the situation. The destroyers were overrunning the PC.

And I disagree that we are “forced to like him” – the situation is shady as kitten and the PC knows it. It’s only Marjory who is at all accepting of Lazarus.

You said you played through it a second time. Go play through it a third time. Because first time I played through I got that feeling of “this feels just like Caithe” at the end of Rising Flames, but I didn’t get that feeling the second time.

DaShi.1368:

AndShe’s obviously the more popular character, so by having her with Lazarus, we should like this character more. Please…

This sounds like a load of bull, in all honesty.

Marjory is the only character that makes sense being sent with Lazarus, TBH, due to the whole necromancer thing. If any character “had to go with Lazarus for plot reasons”, then Marjory is the obvious answer.

DaShi.1368:

But the the absolute worst crime of Lazarus is that he is boring. For all of Scarlet’s flaws as a character, she was at least entertaining to watch. Scarlet also got away with a lot because it’s harder for a villain to be a Mary Sue. We are meant to hate them.

We’ve seen Lazarus twice. You cannot really judge interesting-or-boring off of that, really, and the first impression was a kitten good one.

And Scarlet being entertaining? HAH! Not in the least. She was literally a British Harley Quinn and without all the good qualities of Harley Quinn (and seriously – Tara Strong, Scarlet’s VA, said that when she first went in to record she was told that her character was “basically a British Harley Quinn” – don’t believe me? watch and find out ). And it’s fairly easy for villains to be Mary Sues… Scarlet was one the very instant she was revealed with that crummy backstory. You cannot call Lazarus a Mary Sue (or Gary Stue) yet, since we’ve only encountered him twice in GW2 and very little both times – and hell, the very origin story for him is that he has a major flaw.

Originally I theorized that E was part of a tight-nit group with Ogden, Livia, Pale Tree, Gleam, and Master of Peace, following Glint’s plans. But with the lack of response from E in later S2 and HoT, I began thinking E was Faren, Scarlet Pimpernel style. And the lack of communication was caused by having to hold up public appearances (Party Politics) and then being stuck in the jungle – how did Faren survive being in the jungle crawling with hostile hylek and mordrem, alone, for hours?

But when the bandit champs v2 came out, we got a letter from an interesting fellow: The Errant.

And I thought about something: every time that E comes to us or Marjory, it deals with driving us away from the corrupt politics of DR:

• When E first met Marjory, he stopped her from following the norn necromancer mercenary.
• When E first contacted us, it focused the Pact Commander on LA political situation but also drew Marjory away from investigating DR for a time – I wonder what her current case was at the time?
• The third time E contacted us, it was about “mysterious disturbances” in Brisban Wildlands. While this brought us closer to the White Mantle, at the time they were being besieged by Mordremoth – something the Pact Commander would be interested in. So to buy time, and save White Mantle skin from Mordremoth, E sent us against the Elder Dragons’ forces.

E = The Errant = leader of the Bandit Executioners, on Caudecus’ side of the split.

Linken.6345:

BrotherBelial.3094:

The Harbinger? Looks like ANet is not the only one.

Aint that a sylvari from another tree in their personal story?

Yes, it’s Malyck. Who’s been forgotten about, somewhat. ArenaNet intended to put him into HoT but scrapped him for the sake of a “fast paced narrative” which, IMO, was the shot in the foot for HoT.

There are so few cinematics with long dialogues in either HoT or S3. And you just cannot skip open world dialogue – without what would no doubt be a lot of time, effort, and bug-ridden fixing.

And for S2, see quote above. Though I’m not sure why they can’t just have the skip cinematic button move all the NPCs to their desired places at the end of the cinematic like in GW1.

Prince Vingador.8067:

Its amazing, players want to get all the titles with no stress and no risk.
I think anet in the future will start to give titles just for us to log in.
There is no prestige at all anymore in anything in gw2 imo.
I got the legendary wings since season 2 , and u know what , i not even use them, because there is 0 prestige and everybody feels he should get it with no efford, there was 4 season to get it and some didnt , so they start to “cry” because was too hard or blame the macth making"
I feel in gw2 there is 0 prestige in the titles and everything is so easy to get , that its not interesting anymore.

There is a huge difference between “no effort” and “time restriction”.

Sometimes, people don’t have the time to play for a month. Sometimes they need to take a break – either from the game itself, or the community. Sometimes real life stuff gets in the way.

This was the major, continuous problem with LW Season 1. Eventually folks got burned out trying to complete the timelimited achievements that they either could not enjoy the game, or had to avoid it for a time. Very few people liked it.

This isn’t asking for easy mode or for things to just be given to players. It’s asking for stuff to not be on a time restriction basis.

The Season legendary titles make sense to be time restrictive, since that’s the format of the seasons. But for these “map achievements” – either they could be so minuscule in reward to not matter to folks, should not exist in the first place, or they should not be time restricted.

Make the achievements as hard as you want, that’s not the issue here.

I would say there needs something for the more ‘hardcore PvPers’ to go towards, I don’t see much of all for that stuff, but it shouldn’t be in the form of time restriction stuff.

The corpses that they were – or in the latter case, the allied NPCs – were not in hiding but in plain sight.

I’d comment with your second statement, but honestly that has zero bearing on this discussion.

Awesome news.

If folks really get their panties in a twist over something as nonsensival as a “sense of prestige” over achievements that were not hard to get but were short-lived, just make the titles non-returning. Few enough folks actually use titles for it to matter.

Though, TBH, PvP gets enough prestige titles with their seasonal new title…

Immortius.4537:

How this list was produced

I’ve written some scripts that compare screenshots of the preview panel to skin icons retrieved from the API in order to create a mapping, and then manually addressed the problem cases (skins which share icons and duplicate skin icons mostly).

Or you can just go onto the wiki, where I and others added all unlocks from a brand new F2P account (which, yes, showed gliders too). Which was determined by scrolling over the icon, thus getting the name and icon (rarely the name of the skin in the unlock did not match the item that unlocks it), and you could just pull those API ids. (armor/weapons may still be incomplete – I never got to that but I think others did and just forgot to remove the stub tag?)

:)

Not all skins/minis/gliders/outfits can be discovered via the guaranteed unlock, interestingly. And that’s ignoring the exotic/ascended/legendary skins.

For example, no Hexed Outfit, but there’s there Royal Guard Outfit (which was meant to be for only owners of the game prior to HoT’s pre-release sale). And no 2015 Halloween minis are in there, despite being from pre-Sept 2016.

Canines are amphibious I thought, and Sylvan Hounds count as amphibious so I woulda thought they did…

But if that’s so then I’d just guess it’s a mechanical decision. ArenaNet had to limit the options for underwater content in a balanced way. While highly annoying and sometimes nonsensical (why do engineers get to core elites underwater while necromancers – and probably other professions – get one core elite?), it makes sense… I guess? Meh, underwater balance doesn’t make sense.

But the tl;dr of it: mechanic reasons, not lore.

Wait for the underwater combat overhaul many want even if they don’t realize it… the one that’ll likely never happen… for that to match lore.

• “Can the process of nurturing a human child, and trying to guide him/her with your “ways”, be considered unnatural?" Teeeechnically, society does say it is… “nature versus nurture” after all. But this isn’t really what you’re saying because… “in my view sylvari spawn from the Mists” which is definitely unnatural. And I’d disagree, though now I’m not sure if that’s an argument for this page or the other. My main disagreement being that the Dream isn’t a physical place and for them to be “spawn from the Mists” you need portals from the Mists – but the entire time the sylvari are in the Dream, their bodies are in the pods. Basically, their minds are in the Dream while their bodies are forming in Tyria. This would mean they couldn’t be “spawn from the Mists” because, well, they’re born in Tyria…
  • “Give these Trees any kind of interaction with other minds and they’ll assimilate from those. What Ventari and Ronan unknowingly did was exactly that, they transmitted their _teachings to the Pale Tree, who slowly assimilated and learned from them, gaining a higher consciousness in the long run."_ Funny thing is that while you’re constantly going to the Terebinth, you completely ignore the Ancestor Trees I already linked to. Ronan and Ventari do nothing more to the Pale Tree than the centaurs have been doing to trees for centuries. And no sylvari-like spawn come from them. No intelligence of trees shown. Yet “sylvari are spawn of the Mists, but the tree is an old species” or so you seem to be arguing… if the Pale Tree is of an old species, why have the Maguuma centaurs never, in centuries, never created a prior Pale Tree? (And yes, Ancestor Trees are a Tyrian centaur thing too, as seen by the tree in the center of the Dry Top centaur camp).
  • “If any tree or plant could do this (like what you think happened with the Revered Terebinth),” No, you have been presenting that the Terebinth is like the Pale Tree. You are presenting that there have been generations of these trees – because they cannot just be popping out of nowhere, even if the sylvari do. You have been the one arguing that it isn’t just the seeds in the cave. Not me. You. I’ve been saying from the beginning that the is only the seeds of the cave, purified corrupted seeds in dormancy just like Glint’s egg(s), hidden there from an unknown amount of time.
  • “Also, funnily enough, the Revered Terebinth looks more like a white oak than the Pale Tree itself (clearly because it’s still young and growing), have you even seen it in game? It also has that typical tangly vibe to it.” Still looks nothing like the Pale Tree did when young.

(This character limit is killer)

• I bring up ice elementals because of your original statement: “On a side note, sylvari are already plants so Mordremoth doesn’t need to imbue them with plant magic, hence it can skip the first stage with them.” (btw, this would be the answer to “Would you point out to where I (supposedly) said that?” question) That “first stage”, by your argument, is the physical corruption – basically that sylvari are ‘special’ (or privileged – you’re mistaking the use to mean a benefit to sylvari when I’m using it as a benefit to Mordremoth) and only need to be corrupted by the second stage, the mind. While I’d argue the entire first/second stage is a load of false argument (your sole reasoning for it is because the Forgotten ritual didn’t reverse Glint’s or Twitchy’s bodies – all this proves is what we knew: that corruption changes both body and mind (or more accurately, existence of free will) but the Forgotten ritual could only revert one side of the corruption; it does not prove or indicate that “physical corruption must happen first” or that they are not done instantaneously which all other evidence in the game indicates and downright proves).
  • By this argument you had set up, Jormag would be able to skip the physical change with Ice Elementals, or more simply put, not need to imbue Ice Elemental with ice magic. However, he does – we know this because their appearance changes, rather drastically in fact.
  • Basically, your argument on the sylvari should extend to elementals, but as we quite literally see, is not the case.
• The shaman summons the Frozen Maw to kill those who destroyed the totem to Jormag. While corrupting it may be an eventual intention, it is far from the current.
  • Corrupted Ice Formations are not miniature versions of a Greater Ice Elemental. Miniature versions of a Greater Ice Elemental would be… Ice Elementals.
  • Corrupted Ice is not always inert, you know. And yes, I’m referring to the object linked, as well as their alternative forms. They spread outwards, and though they do not strike at players they do destroy buildings and they also imprison individuals (turning them into icebrood – as per the end of this event )
• Kralkatorrik is called the Elder Crystal Dragon. These terms is always the first sphere of influence for the Elder Dragon – and is also the form their corruption takes. Elder Death Dragon, Elder Fire Dragon, Elder Ice Dragon, Elder Vegetation Dragon/Elder Plant Dragon, Elder Crystal Dragon. The only dragon who’s first sphere of influence we do not know is the deep sea dragon.
  • I actually looked specifically at that image. All I see is stone that moves its shape. Which do often look like it could be a partial-liquid, or wet-clay, or flesh… but it’s still stone. There’s no “clear hints of muscle tissue”, just shaped stone. It looks like a well sculpted sculptor to me. Similar to the head.

• Mordremoth is an Elder Dragon.. the Mouth of Mordremoth is its physical body (and from its body, the vines grow). It is not a tree. It just lives around one – that tree is actually an ancient Stonewood tree which we see a handful of throughout HoT (one collapsed one in Verdant Brink, one upright one we can travel through in Tangled Depths, and the Heart of Thorns corrupted one).
  • Elder Dragons – thus including Mordremoth – are not corrupted. They corrupt. Big difference.
• Mordremoth has a pretty kitten high success rate for “struggling” to “corrupt” sylvari… I’d have to disagree. It’s more that sylvari struggle to not fall to Mordremoth. He clearly has the upper hand in the mental battles.
• Yes, I am implying that the Crystal Guardians and the Crystal Spiders are potentially purified branded offshoots. They are “elementals” because of mechanics only. Back in GW1, especially Prophecies’ creation, the Elder Dragons wasn’t a concept in the devs’ minds – Glint was just a dragon back then, who created all these crystalline defenses because she had a crystal theme to her. Them being purified branded would be a retcon, technically, just as Glint being a dragon champion is.
  • The only ones remnant in Glint’s lair are fragments of the landscape and the facets – though I’ll admit that their presence is an oddity given the total lack of using them when fighting Kralkatorrik. They’re not really continuing to form, since it’s outright stated that the entire lair is degrading.
• “are you saying water, air, metals, soil or clay are either living or dead?” – Everything has a rate of decay. Water goes foul, air becomes unbreathable, metals rust, soil loses its nutrition. Everything decays over time. So, in a sense, yes they are “either living or dead”. Zhaitan’s magic pushes things to those decays – which take different forms over different materials.
  • And anything corrupted by Zhaitan’s magic is considered a “risen” since that is what his corruption is labeled – the term “risen” is a Tyrian made term because the vast majority of his corruption influences the dead who “rise” (or ‘become risen’) and move again (all dragon minion names are Tyrian-made descriptors – destroyers are called such because they destroy all in sight; branded are called such because they come from the Dragonbrand; icebrood are a brood made of/turning into ice; mordrem stem from Mordremoth). In the same sense, anything can become mordrem, icebrood, destroyer, or branded. Their appearance will change to that of decay, plant, ice, fire, or crystal depending on the corrupting force, but the subject being corrupted is irrelevant – all things except magical things tied to Forgotten and the Six can be corrupted. The question is will the dragon choose to corrupt it? not can it be influenced by the corruption? because, as said, unless it’s a rare case, it can be influenced by the corruption… even if it’s a non-corpse being made into a decayed or rotting version of itself.
  • “Living risen” are a rare thing because every Elder Dragon has a preference for what it corrupts – for example Jormag prefers to corrupt willing converts while Primordus prefers to corrupt rock and lava – and Zhaitan’s preference is corpses. But they exist.
  • The trees are, if I’m correct, corrupted for years (Bloodtide Coast is said to have been a place where corpses wash ashore in Ghosts of Ascalon, but dialogue there indicates it’s been under assault since Port Noble was wiped out decades ago)… and it only takes weeks at most to fully succumb to corruption of any Elder Dragon.
  • “when you assume that Kellach is alive when fully turned, what do you exactly mean?” That he doesn’t die between the state of “being alive and partially corrupted” and “being fully corrupted”. He goes straight from living to a risen. Without a death. There is no “dying in the process, just to rise once again” as you constantly claim. It doesn’t happen. At all. Go play through it if you really don’t believe me – he only takes the risen appearance in the Vigil path, btw.
    **_ “That he still fulfills his living physiological functions?”_ Does any dragon minion do this? Do any branded breath? They no longer have lungs. Do they eat? I guess you can say they eat magic (so would Kellach).

Not going to quote, but responding to each of your bullets in order:

• I was listing all plausible scenarios there… I thought I made that clear.
  • As an aside: Okay, let’s argue the sylvari are “spawn from the Mists” (I’ll argue this at the end), what about the Pale Tree? We see a multitude of trees treated like the Pale Tree, or better, for centuries by the centaurs and nothing even close to the Pale Tree. For all your returns to the Terebinth, you ignore that this has been happening for centuries.
• The Exalted/Forgotten built Tarir there intentionally:
  • “We raised this haven at the edge of Mordremoth’s jungle, but no Elder Dragon can touch us here. Our magic shields the city from them. Here you will wait in stasis for the signs, and much time may pass before you awaken to the call.” https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Study_in_Gold
  • If they’ve been at war with mordrem, and are trained to recognize mordrem, then why would they mistake common plant creatures as mordrem? That’s like saying you’re a norn who mistakes ice elementals for icebrood, or a Rata Novan who mistook embers for destroyers. So yes, I am saying that there is no logical reason why an individual trained with fighting and having been fighting a foe, would mistake an individual of similar “nationality”, shall we say, for being that foe’s nationality.
• That Mordrem Guard in Buried Insight fell to Mordremoth because Canach forced him back to it. That Mordrem Guard explicitly states that it was fully under control. He broke control because, as Canach says, “Mordremoth’s voice was growing to a great bellow as we drew closer. Here, it’s a whisper. It’s a welcome respite.”
• On a quick search: ‘Yes, it’s true—sylvari were created to be dragon minions. And now Mordremoth has called them home.’ There were many other press releases, videos, and such which explicitly state that Mordremoth are the origin of sylvari.
• You were also making it quite clear that “Once the Elder Dragons go back to sleep, it seems like their minions will mostly dissipate the seeds are prevented from germinating during this specific unsuitable condition, when the probability of seedling survival is low” – thing is, that’s treating the seeds like normal seeds even if they were dragon minions. I wasn’t saying you weren’t treating the eggs as if already fertilized, I was saying that like the eggs having to be fertilized, so do seeds have to be able to sprout.
• And yes, we should “assume” they were corrupted in the first place. There would be little or no other time for them to have been corrupted so that sylvari would be “created to be dragon minions” – the only thing created to be dragon minions, are dragon minions.
• We actually do not know where Blighting Trees come from – nothing really implies they come from the same cave of seeds as Malyck’s Tree and the Pale Tree. In fact, given the existence of both Malyck’s Tree and the Pale Tree, it is a safer assumption to believe they did not come from that cave.
  • I didn’t consider it because the Terebinth is nothing like the Pale Tree in any way, shape or form. It just isn’t. Yes, a sylvari’s death there altered the tree, but not in a way as to let it grow rapidly within years, not in a way that it becomes sapient and communicative with those around it, and not in a way that it can move its limbs and roots at will with at least limited degrees. There are ZERO similarities between the two. That’s why I dismiss it… as I stated already. It’s more that you’re not even considering my statement that there is no similarity.
• Actually, there is a route for you to go: to actually explain what you meant if not braindead. You never did.
  • Also, yes they are champions. They’ren ot indirectly spreading corruption, they’re directly spreading corruption. And making dozens upon dozens is a very definition of a dragon champion. Fun fact: minion factories are overseen by a dragon champion. Zhaitan’s were. Kralkatorrik’s are. To quote an NPC:
  • Centurion Bloodfist: “No, they came back the very next day-as Branded, bringing destruction to the Legion’s rear defenses.”
  • Sentinel Whiptail: “But nothing short of a full crystal lieutenant could turn them so fast!”
  • Centurion Bloodfist: “Generally, yes. But there have been no sightings here for weeks. We think we’re dealing with something new.”
  • If it’s creating a lot of minions at a face pace: nothing short of a dragon champion can do that. (Note for clarity: “dragon lieutenant” and “dragon champion” appear to be used interchangeably, or possibly used in the confusing sense that the former is a lower rank of the later). Only in rare exceptions is this otherwise, and that’s usually when the location is steeped in dragon corruption. Which is not the case with Blighting Trees.

Sock.2785:

It seems pretty logical that, being deep down, and major ley lines flow deep down, the various aspects of magic (point 1) were removed from the ley lines (point 2).

You are making the assumption that a ley line runs under the Infinite Coil Reactor! You make the assumption that they knew what ley lines were.

And it’s impossible for the Inquest – or Kudu – to pull corrupting dragon energy from the ley lines when they don’t know that ley lines exist. Not even Snaff had definitive proof of them – as Taimi explicitly points out near the end of Season 1, ley lines was just a theory of some asura (specifically of synergetic college). No one but Scarlet knew about ley lines being real until the Battle for Lion’s Arch in 1327 AE. And even Scarlet only knew in ~1324, and only because of her observations of the Thaumanova Reactor blowing up (and to our knowledge, only Scarlet escaped the reactor room – the Inquest there in the fractal only survived because of us, but we weren’t there for the real thing).

Sock.2785:

My viewpoint (about the Inquest’s reactor separating the magics (1) from the ley lines (2)) actually makes sense and is less dependent to proper dragon minions getting captured, which, by the way, are captured just to be analyzed. To further validate this, the Inquest didn’t capture actual mordrem and Subject Alpha is still able to use that kind of magic (the natural aspect of magic).

Makes sense until you realize they didn’t know about the existence of ley lines.

Why would they “just analyze” the minions when they have a steady supply of them? And how can you properly experiment with the dragon energies if you’re not pulling them from the source?

And they did capture mordrem, technically – just “purified mordrem” in a way. It’d be little different than capturing the Zephyrite crystals and testing that magic. Of course, this is why the CoE creatures are not true mordrem. If it were what you said, and they captured the dragon’s magic from the ley lines, and were able to perfectly mimic destroyer, icebrood, branded, and risen – why couldn’t they perfectly mimic mordrem? Why, instead, did they perfectly mimic Nightmare-influenced purified mordrem, the same kind of mordrem that they obtained to, as you say, only analyze?

You say your reasoning makes sense… but it doesn’t.

Sock.2785:

Esier explanation: “dragon magics” do not flow through ley lines, the natural magical aspects (1) do. In fact “dragon magics” aren’t even a thing in my viewpoint.

That’s saying “canon lore isn’t canon lore”.

You’re literally arguing that practically everything we’ve known about magic and dragon corruption’s nature is false.

Sock.2785:

There are hardly any tyrians still alive from those times (roughly 250 years) and, if anything, some elonian citizens might remember them more, but even between them there’s nobody who directly came in contact with them. There never was a chance to make an actual, true comparison for any tyrian.
Why would the Flame Legion Shamans be attributed to dragons? They don’t go around screaming: “Surrender to the fire dragon!”.

You speak of Tyrians as if they don’t have a giant multi-racial order who’s primary existence is to record and discover the accurate history of the world, which was founded in the years where Margonites – the subject matter in question of being known or not – were widespread. You also speak as if hundreds of Elonians did not spread to Tyria as refugees. You also speak as if there isn’t a huge multi-racial order that originated in Elona and had personally fought Margonites and have no reason to not ensure knowledge of that battle is forgotten.

In short: there is absolutely no reason why Margonites wouldn’t be common knowledge, at least among humans. Norn, sylvari, and charr likely wouldn’t care, but if they joined the Priory or Whispers they’d know. And the individual Tyrians we’re talking about are part of the Orders/Pact, so including members of the Priory and Whispers.

Re: Flame Legion: your argument was that Kudu’s experiments are attributed to the Elder Dragons solely because no one else in Tyrian history has altered individuals on such scale, and that he is in fact not using dragon corruption but ley line’s same spheres as the dragons. I showed that the Flame Legion have. They are not tied to the Elder Dragons.

The two cases existing are contradicting to your reasoning.

Sock.2785:

Not even one of Kudu’s abominations attacks in the name of the dragon.

Pretty sure the common risen do. But to further that: no destroyer in Tyria attacks in the name of the dragon; no icebrood in Tyria do either except for champions; no branded in Tyria do either except for one champion out of ~5 or so known; no mordrem in Tyria do either except for Mordrem Guard.

So to say the insane Subject Alpha, Kudu’s Monster, or the three Evolved dragon minions (aka the experimented on dragon minions – not just analyzed, experimented on) who don’t speak at all do not praise their dragon(s), and therefore are not corrupted by dragon energies, is a very bad argument.

Sock.2785:

The proper captured dragons minions are there to be studied and analyzed.

And have their energies pulled from so they can be concentrated and put into the subjects…

And let’s not forget being experimented on – the very origin of the three sub-bosses of CoE explorable.

Sock.2785:

When approaching this, I think your assumption still is that “dragon magic is corruption”. I’ll just quote this from the wiki: " “Magic” is often used interchangeably with “dragon energy”, although whether the two are truly the same is ambiguous. ".

And the wiki would be false there. There is literally one time ever in the entire course of the game that “magic” and “draconic energy” are used interchangably. And that is when Scarlet tricked the Inquest into mixing chaos energy with draconic energy. So it’s not even “magic in general” but “chaos magic” is used interchangably… one time… with intention of falsification.

In other words: she lied.

And I’m not surprised as to who wrote that to be honest. He made a lot of similar errors and putting speculations as fact.

I’ve gone and removed it from the wiki, given the lack of basis.

Sock.2785:

The Thaumanova Reactor drew energy (magical energy) directly from the ley lines deep down (exactly like the Crucible of Eternity), seemingly from an interception of ley lines (or a hub); not knowing what they were doing, the Inquest thought they were dealing with chaos magic (they were not). When the reactor started to collapse, and the Anomaly was finally killed, the high concentrations of magics generated quite a lot of chaos energy (as in my viewpoint (3)).

I do not believe anything says that either reactor drew power from the ley lines. Especially since with exception of the fractal the knowledge or even mention of ley lines didn’t exist in the game when they were put into the game. And even then, the only mention of ley lines in the Thaumanova Reactor Fractal is that the reactor failing let Scarlet identify the local ley line network.

If you’re getting that from the wiki… Well, the wiki is too often edited by players who like to put in their speculation as fact. It happens far too much. Which is my guess since nothing actually says the Thaumanova Anomaly existed in Tyria (while we are seeing anomalies now, they have a vastly different situation to their appearance than the Thaumanova meltdown).

And yes, the Inquest were dealing with chaos magic. Kiel’s findings as well as Marjory’s and even the Inquest mention this – however, all three mention that they also added in draconic energy to the mix (due to Scarlet’s prodding).

Sock.2785:

Uhm… those are holograms: holograms are projected three-dimensional images of objects or creatures. We don’t know anything about eventual magical properties of the holograms.

PC: A hologram?
Elli: A magical construction of light emitted by this device on my belt. It projects my voice and mimics everything I do.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trouble_at_the_Roots#Guardian.27s_Pass

Scarlet Briar: Enough, enough, enough. No light energy. No more reloading. No spent cases. NO distractions. Fire everything so I can get back to work!
Scarlet Briar: The dark energy is all I need. Now it’s time to die, die, die.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defeat_Scarlet's_Prime_Hologram_before_the_defenses_activate

TL;DR These Holograms, originally made by Elli, sold to LA, and stolen by Aetherblades then reconfigured by Scarlet, are powered by magic. In the Prime Hologram (and related) case, powered by light energy and dark energy.

Sock.2785:

In this interpretaion I took inspiration from various energies, as encountered here (chaos, dark and light), to try and describe fundamental forces (force carrying particles) connecting the mind to magic (which was the main point to actually focus about). The sharing of the name happpened to be a coincidence.
So, here, dark energy isn’t the “dark arts” applied by necromancers; chaos energy isn’t chaos magic (which would be a kind of magic as shown in point 1); light energy isn’t in on itself the combination of every “colour” of magics (1). How they appear was just a naive addition I tried to propose, intended originally as a parenthesis. not intended to be the main point.
However, regarding light energy’s appearance (I went by memory) I was recalling the boon icons and the various auras of the Forgotten’s “floating weapons”.

That wiki deduction, in regards to light and dark energy, comes from two sources and only two sources.

The first being the Prime Hologram fight. Which is the sole mention of light and dark energy in all of GW2.

The second being GW1 energy damage types. In which monks largely used holy and necromancers largely used dark.

I never implied or stated that “dark energy” is equivilant to “dark arts”.

As an aside: Chaos energy IS chaos magic. When talking about magic, “magic” and “energy” are interchangable when describing a type of magical energy. Chaos magic = chaos energy; dragon magic = draconic energy. They are terms used interchangably.

The Forgotten’s “floating weapons” are just using the chaos weapon model, which probably shouldn’t be a strong source for anything given that the chaos weapons in GW1 were basically just spectral weapons.

Sock.2785:

“Divine fire”, or “divine magic” in general, seems to be the presence of all the aspects of magic (as show in point 1) and the aura surrounding the PC when killing the Shadow of the Dragon is a clear example of this. In my view, light energy (again, separate in this view from “light magic”) explains how a being (a mind) can do that; it’s the equivalent of a fundamental force.

The “presence of all the aspects of magic” is ley lines – this is what Taimi explicitly says in S3E2. And ley lines are prismatic in appearance, with a heavy hue or blue (largely being blue with purple, green, red, and yellow outlines). An sometimes, rarely, they’re yellow with red/purple outline.

Divine fire – or any divine magic – has no appearance relation to ley lines and is always white with golden outline (even the aura around the PC when killing the Shadow of the Dragon or Mordremoth’s avatar).

And again, light energy = light magic in everyone (but your’s) terminology.

Sock.2785:

Regarding dark energy’s appearance: we can’t perceive ultraviolet as a colour, so we can’t see it; the violet colour we perceive from the blacklight isn’t ultraviolet but still visible light.

My point was that the Ultraviolet Hologram is the singular proven evidence of dark energy being used in GW2.

When we’re shown some kind of depiction of ultraviolet, it’s depicted with purple since that’s the closest the human eye can see of it.

Sock.2785:

Regardless, this colour can be seen in some of Jormag’s icy formations, within some Zhaitan’s minions, Mordremoth’s “pink magic” is really just that; Kralkatorrik’s kinda tricky, since it is associated with fuchsia/purple (its same “sphere” appeared as fuchsia in that vision).

In 2010 or 2011, Jeff Grubb was asked if there was any relation between Abaddon and Kralkatorrik because of the shared color of purple. His response:

“Purple is the color of evil in Tyria.”

Basically, the purple hues’ only meaning is that it’s malevolent.

Also, where does Mordremoth have “pink” magic? All aura hues with Mordremoth and Mordrem are either lime green or dark purple.

Sock.2785:

I don’t understand what the specific claim you’re referring to is, and how you get to that interpretation; would you point to where you think I said that “all magic is made of atoms”? Which (atoms), by the way, are not elemental particles on themselves. Also, when comparing these exotic particles to atoms I didn’t imply them to work exactly like atoms (it’s difficult, at least for me, to imagine and describe a whole new elemental particle and/or forces from scratch).

Point 1, you say all magic is formed of atoms. You use this to argue that dragon magic is the magic we use.

To me, that sounds like saying because gold is made of atoms, and iron is made of similar atoms, they must be the same thing.

Sock.2785:

The title of that treatise is misleading, since it deals with Snaff’s research regardless; if you’d actually consider both the title and that extract (I suppose it’s an extract), it clearly talks about magic and mind in general, and has to do with Snaff’s whole (magi)scientific work.

You missed the point. Zojja was talking about Snaff’s dragon energy research and that treatise has no dragon energy research mentioned.

Sock.2785:

You can’t take magic out of the universal equation.

Actually you can and must. Official lore states that the world is in a state of nearly no magic when the Elder Dragons go to sleep. And it also states that the human homeworld was with little to no magic (thus being why they thought the Six “made the gift of magic”).

This proves that worlds – and civilizations – can live and potentially thrive with little to no magic, meaning that where mind is doesn’t necessarily mean magic must be too.

Which means that, to some degree, Snaff’s treatise is wrong.

Sock.2785:

It’s stated and implied numerous times. We have indications with Matthias and with everyone affected by the bloodstone’s explosion (or continued exposure to its crystalline fragments, especially when implanted in the body); even the PC was doomed to lose control had the Priory not intervened; the Shadowstone absorbed the excess magic that was slowly making us lose control.

First off, your only confirmed cases of magic causing insanity is magic held within Bloodstones. And one very specific Bloodstone at that (ghosts haven’t yet been reported to have returned to the Ring of Fire Bloodstone – instead, they left that Bloodstone to return to the Maguuma Bloodstone) implying that it is something unique to that specific Bloodstone.

Nothing actually says the PC would lose their mind if it had not been for the Shadowstone – in fact, the Shadowstone had done something that allows them to “turn into” an anomaly themselves. That’s hardly a problem solved. Any insanity inflicted by the PC would no doubt be a result of seeing things that others cannot – while such was caused by magic, it would not inevitably lead to insanity. There are some people who manage to cope with mental disorders that causes them to see and interact with hallucinations. One famous individual being John Nash..

Unless you’re going to argue that all mental disorders (or at least hallucination related ones) are causes of insanity (which I guess depends on the definition of insanity you go towards).

Furthermore, seeing the anomalies is drastically different from how the Maguuma Bloodstone affected individuals – the latter caused an addiction dependency, which is hardly insanity in of itself. Comparing the two and saying they are the same is akin to saying paranoid schizophrenia is the same as being addicted to heroine (this is, in fact, a very apt comparison of what the two cases are).

Sock.2785:

The key here is Ascension; I doubt the Elder Dragons are Ascended, but human gods definitely are.

Nothing says the gods are Ascended. Kormir, for example, never Ascended.

No, they were actually risen being created. In both cases (again, I’m not talking about the priest of Grenth encounter but at The Wreck of the Scorchrazor within The Godpath Gardens with the event where you have to save Pact soldiers – those you don’t save turn into brand new risen).

You’re treating magic acting like radiation.

But from testing, folks know the anomaly pops up is not related to doing Episode 1. It’s related to doing the Ley Anomaly event once.

Seeing the anomalies appears to be tied to doing the ley anomaly achievements (namely the first one – witnessing a ley anomaly) not the collection of unbound magic. Plenty of people have reported seeing the “sad anomalies” without doing S3, and plenty of folks who did S3E1 have reported not seeing them at all.

We players are not “gathering magic uncontrollably” – we’re actually very controlled in it (most do it only for the daily or vendor items). It’s those caught in the actual blast (the crazed Pact and White Mantle) who are doing so uncontrollably.

She doesn’t make risen during the fight, but before. Dead bodies pop up and fight you. It happens when you first meet her, while she’s under an illusion, IIRC, and maybe a second time.

Same with the priest of Grenth – it’s not during the fight, as I said it’s the area before the priest. Before you see him.

If you’ve actually played the game – which honestly I’m beginning to doubt is so – you’d have noticed that minions spread corruption to, as do champions at a much faster rate. Hell, one of the three core defining elements of “what makes a dragon minion a champion” is “it spreads corruption quickly”.

Illyra’s line was because of the Forgotten artifacts being immune, not because risen cannot spread corruption after Zhaitan’s death. I mean, that tome was there for 150 years with Zhaitan alive and looming over it, and it couldn’t be corrupted. Hell, all of the lines you refer to with uncorrupted things was with Zhaitan looming over it.

But you happen to overlook the High Priestess of Lyssa encounter, when she makes risen out of fresh corpses. Or when the same happens in an area just outside the High Priest of Grenth’s area.

Honestly, that’s all that’s needed to be known.

On dragon minions over 10,000 years:

• We really don’t know what happened to the dragon minions over the 10,000 years. Most likely they were systematically hunted down by the remanent Forgotten, dwarves, and Glint. But we know plenty survived, and more than just three dragon champions. Like I quoted, there are old legends of the Depths of Tyria of what effectively describes the destroyers existing for centuries.

On seeds and eggs:

• You’re making the error of treating dragon minions as reproducing like standard creatures when we know for a very strong fact that this is not the case – dragon minions, in general, cannot reproduce. At all. The only such forms of this is pregnant creatures being corrupted.
• Which means that the seeds must be germinated, that the eggs must be fertilized, upon corruption. Otherwise they’re hunks of corrupted objects that may or may not become sapient minions of that material directly rather than the creature it should be.

On the Terebinth and relation to the Pale Tree.

• The seeds are not shared and you have no support for this. They look nothing alike either, which if they shared origin, they would. The Terebinth would be a white oak, like the Pale Tree.
• Ronan and Ventari did not change the growth of the tree. Ventari himself outright shows surprise at the Pale Tree’s rapid growth – what was done to it was not done by Ventari.
• In this segment, you also admitted that the Pale Tree is not natural, which was – as I understood it – your original argument. You’re going back on yourself now.

On Risen Trees, Kellach, and “risen are undead”

• Calling the risen “undead” is a massive misnomer – like saying “Mordremoth is the jungle” (he isn’t – he is, at most, just his corruption). Risen are not undead. Tyrians call them undead because they are ignorant. They see rotting people walking. They’re used to these being undead, like from the Cataclysm or under Joko’s command, so they call them undead. But they are not undead.
• Risen can be living or dead, plant or animal, soil, water, air, metal or clay – like every other dragon minion, the material that they once were is irrelevant: it gets changed into something else.
• Animals don’t lose their organs when they die. That analogy is poor and is more accurate comparison to saying the trees aren’t hollowed out – which is true, they aren’t. But they still have their leaves. Which they’d have lost if they died.
• Per Kellach: Go replay the story instance. Pay attention.
  • He doesn’t fall to the ground. He doesn’t even begin to fall. He does the roar animation (same as when risen become enraged/berserking/whatever it’s called) and his model changes.
  • He. Doesn’t. Die. Not until you kill him, where he stays dead.
  • You’re caught on the misnomers used to create subjective truths across the game.

On corrupting things of the Elder Dragons’ sphere of influence:

• Icebrood Elementals make your argument make no sense – you have ice magic creatures (thus “in Jormag’s sphere” by your argument) and they have no privileges and their change is as drastic as anything else (such as norn to Icebrood Norn). And you just constantly ignore this.
• In every single other case your argument falls apart. It only works for sylvari, because sylvari are unique and their uniqueness holds nothing with “what they are made out of” but “their origins and ties to the Dream”. But your argument is speaking in a general sense and against what is known to make them unique.

On the Frozen Maw and The Shatterer:

• It is a Greater Ice Elemental. That’s what it’s called. Note. Ice Elemental. Not Icebrood Elemental. The Frozen Maw is not icebrood.
• My original look at the Shatterer was with the preconception that it was a corrupted being. I saw it all. None of it looked fleshy. Please provide a screenshot with an arrow pointing to this supposed “fleshy” part. Because I’ve never seen it, no matter how many times I’ve hacked at that ankle of his. It looks no different than its head, which looks like finely sculpted stone (and when it moves, almost looks like clay – not flesh – but that’s what the mind would register stone that changes shape as, I guess).
  • I highly doubt that its chest being hollow is not indication it was corrupted with more crystal magic than others. Why would crystal result in hollowness? That makes sense.

Jeeze, even trying to summarize gets long…

This is getting stupidly long and repetative so I’m going to summarize my points:

On Exalted:

• Exalted were trained to fight dragon minions because their entire purpose is to protect Glint’s legacy from dragon minions – the Tarir meta and Dragon Vigil story instance proves that not only can they take the heat, they can dish it out too.
• Exalted – including Ruka – were around when plant creatures not tied to Mordremoth were commonplace – in the very odd case Exalted weren’t told what a mordrem was, he’d be more likely to have called the sylvari a Thorn Stalker.

On sylvari as an individual species:

• If sylvari are new to this time period, they could not be a pre-existing species, your original claim.
• If they are a pre-existing species, but not seen in this time period, then they would have to have been hibernating for several thousand years. Only things to do that are Elder Dragons and their minions.
• If they were pre-existing species but not hibernating, they would have been around before recently. They would be known. This is not the case.
• Only alternative would be a brand new species born from nothing. This does not happen naturally so quickly, so would have to be magical. However, everything Ronan and Ventari did, Elonian centaurs have done for centuries if not millennia – no sylvari existed before.
• You say these trees exist. So point them out. You haven’t yet, and I can tell you right now: you never will. The Pale Tree is a one-of-a-kind tree in either game. In appearance, size, and speed of growth.

On Mordrem Guard and sylvari corruption:

• There’s no contradiction at all. Basically what happened is:
  • Subject A (Unknown) was corrupted into Subject B (Mordrem).
  • Subject B (Mordrem) was purified into Subject C (Sylvari)
  • Subject C (Sylvari) were brainwashed – but not corrupted – into Subject D (Mordrem Guard).
• Dragon corruption, by definition, is irreversible both physically and mentally without the aid of external ancient and/or powerful magic. We see a Mordrem Guard return to his own self during Buried Insights. This is impossible if it was dragon corruption. The entirety of the Personal Story makes this very point-blank and explicit. Go replay it. It’s what made the purification of Orr such a huge thing – it was defying the impossible and proving it possible – but even then, it was needing powerful magic. Buried Insight has zero magic, let alone powerful magic.
• As for their physical change – we see some pretty drastic sylvari appearance changes. True, not as drastic as the Mordrem Guard, but all sylvari appearance changes we see otherwise are still seeing themselves as individuals, not identity-less clones in an army for their master. This is why only the leaders look different.
• If any Mordrem Guard are “corrupted” then it would be those reborn from the Blighting Trees, such as the three commanders.

On Glint and recorrupting the purified:

• Mordremoth never bothered trying to corrupt the Pale Tree.
• Despite all of Glint’s defenses in GW1, all of the Crystal Guardians and Crystal Spiders not a single one was present when Kralkatorrik killed Glint.
• My theory is that those directly purified are immune to recorruption (Glint, Pale Tree, Malyck’s Tree, etc.), but those made by the purified can be.
• Even then, sylvari are largely immune as well – whether this is due to the ‘purification’ or due to the Dream is unclear though. I’d argue the latter, that without the Dream Mordremoth can corrupt in a more traditional sense than having to go about with “buzzing in the ears” and “strange thoughts” that he subjects the sylvari to constantly to win them over. We’d need to toss Malyck at an Elder Dragon to know, though.

On “that’s what ArenaNet has said”

• What ArenNet has said is that the sylvari are dragon minions. It was all over HoT promotions. They never talked about how they’re not under his control – that is one huge kitten black gap in lore.

On Blighting Trees:

• Dragon champions, by definitions, are powerful minion-making/corruption spreading minions far faster than other minions (even large numbers of regular minions) and are often capable of directing other minions. This is what Blighting Trees do. That makes them dragon champions.
• “As for the the Blighting Trees, never I intended to say they are braindead, just that when Mordremoth corrupts them their mind potential is forever lost (unless it would be possible to purify them like Glint).” – That sounds like you’re calling them braindead.

I don’t think Zhaitan gave anything to Mordremoth. There’s no solid examples of death or shadow in large numbers for any mordrem.

Taimi makes it pretty clear that her “conclusion” with the Blighting Trees is just a theory made hastily based on Primordus taking in some death and plant magic.

Who’s to say that all of Zhaitan’s magic didn’t get taken by Tequatl, the bloodstones, and Primordus before it could even reach Mordremoth?

Of course, we’re not even sure how or why Primordus can take in plant and death magic now when there was no death magic in any other dragon minion prior, and, most importantly, without knowing why or how the Elder Dragons cannot/do not simply “hijack” another Elder Dragon’s sphere of influence if they can usurp them after the Elder Dragon dies.

That is to say: why didn’t Primordus try to take death, crystal, and plant before Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, and Mordremoth even woke up as they were last to wake and there were 100+ years between Primordus and Zhaitan alone (and 200+ between Primordus and both Kralkatorrik and Mordremoth)?

Same for the DSD.

Sock.2785:

@Konig: To help me understand your view, how do you exactly interpret a “sphere of influence”?

Hard to say since we have so little knowledge on the subject.

From what we know, we can say that all magic comes from the same core elements (your “atoms” if you will) which is called aether (unless they decide to retcon that interview answer too, that is – let’s presume, for sake of argument, that they are done with retcons though). But trying to say “the gods’ magic is the same as our magic is the same as dragon magic” is a bit iffy to say the least. It’s like saying “tarnishable metals” and “rusting metals” are the same thing. Yes, they’re both metals, but their density, composition, look – everything about them is different, except what makes them both “metals”. Similarly, I would say the same for divine, ley, and draconic energies – they are all magic, but everything except what makes them magic differ.

When we talk of spheres of influence, specifically, we’re talking about the magical fields of the Elder Dragons. We know now that they are not limited to these two-each fields, as shown by Primordus. But the term, to me, should be used solely in relation to the Elder Dragons and draconic energy. Otherwise it would be akin to tying Dwayna’s domain of Life to the spheres of influence of the Elder Dragons – nothing says that will work.

The spheres of influence are also confusing – if Taimi is right and the Elder Dragons’ consumption is akin to the chak organ filtering out “harmful” magic, how can Primordus now consume what should then be harmful? Furthermore, if it’s not harmful, and consuming multiple types of magic only make the minions stronger, why do they divide the magic at all? Why doesn’t each Elder Dragon try to become some sort of prismatic dragon?

My theory is that we have three groups of magic which each are divided into their own smaller groups – supercategories and subcategories if you will. The supercategories are as mentioned: divine, ley, and draconic. The subcategories change per and we do not have a clear definition of them.

Ley energy and draconic energy have both shown to be unmixable (Thaumanova) but also co-existent (the energies going into the ley lines when Elder Dragons die or hibernate). So it’s hard to say what the exact reaction is meant to be – there’s no real consistency here. But all evidence of actual or potential divine energy has shown to be immune to mixing with draconic energy (like the typical view of water and oil).

I’ll try to depict my thoughts on the “spectrum” of magic later via image.

Sock.2785:

So, the Magic of the Elder Dragons, again, is the same magic we all use (1);

This claim sounds like you’re saying gold is the same as iron, based on your original point that all magic is made of atoms.

Or in other words – something I agree with – that “the core building blocks between magic we use and magic of the Elder Dragons are the same/similar”. I would say that is true, but the actual form – the current state of being – for the two are different.

Something you’ve not covered is this question:

• If dragon magic is the same as everyday magic, why do people constantly differentiate the two?
• And, furthermore, why does the mixing of dragon energy with chaos energy (an everyday magic) result in cataclysmic explosion while the mixing of light, dark, and chaos energy (everyday magic), as seen with the Prime Hologram/College Holograms/Ultraviolet Hologram fights, does not?

Sock.2785:

When regarding the process of imbuing someone with magic (1), the only real example tyrians (in GW2) came in contact with was when the Elder Dragons do so; it follows that when Kudu controlled those “abominations” they were referred to as “dragon minions”. However, Kudu controls those abominations without the need of installing a magitech device on their chests, like the Inquest does in Arah (regarding Kudu’s Monster, I personally doubt it is under his total control: firstly, it is “imprisoned”, secondly it is imbued with a lot of magic, four different aspects too, so chaos energy (as shown in point 3) might start to have a role here).

• I do not think that Tyrians would so quickly forget about Margonites, so your first point about them being the “only example” would be false. Furthermore: Flame Legion Shamans do exactly the same, yet are never attributed to dragon energy.
• Technically speaking, Kudu never controlled Subject Alpha and Kudu’s Monster only became free after Kudu’s death so we cannot – as you say – be certain that Kudu controlled such.

As such, there is no true indication that he used “something mistaken for dragon energy”. Especially when he’s siphoning corrupting magic from dragon minions.

Sock.2785:

Once again, one could argue: “But Kudu himself said he invested the power of the dragons into these creatures!”. Let’s look at this quote from an Inquest subordinate:

Storage Room Clerk: The Crucible of Eternity removes and concentrates dragon energies at the bottom of the complex.

Ultimately the whole deal isn’t clear even to Kudu, but what the reactor does is that it scatters the ley line flow, isolating the six main aspects of magic. These can then be artificially concentrated into various subjects via magitech. To clarify, we know the “coloured magics” flowing through the ley lines are the natural aspects of magic we all use and that the Crucible make use of these magics; it follows that there’s no such thing as “dragon magic”, there’s just “magic”.

You say a lot without saying much at all here. I’m not even sure what your point in counter-arguing that “argument” that was specifically designed to be countered is.

Here’s one major issue you overlooked: Kudu creates normal dragon minions too. Mechanically these created dragon minions are 100% the same as natural dragon minions; aesthetically they are too.

He also has actual dragon minions in captivity (what he’s “removes” dragon energies from) which means he’s not taking the magic from the ley line flow at all. So that point of your counter-argument is false.

Sock.2785:

Let’s start with Kudu: as said by Zojja, he has perverted Snaff’s research and wants to make his own “dragon champions”.
Logically, the next step should be that we take a look at the results of Snaff’s research:

Snaff, A Treatise on the Mental Puppeteering of Golems:

This is your first error. The research Zojja talks about is Snaff’s research on dragon magic, not his research on mentally controlled Golemancy.

Sock.2785:

the Mind is somehow also linked to this structure.

In theory it is.

Nothing actually says Snaff was right. After all, Snaff never went to a place without magic, so how could he truly know that “where one is the other must be” – why can’t there be places with mind but not magic? In fact, this very much sounds like the state of Tyria when the Elder Dragons have finished consuming magic, or even the human homeworld which has been stated to be with so little to no magic that humanity attributed the “discovery of magic” as the “creation of magic by the gods”.

Sock.2785:

However, we know too much magic can make one go insane, somehow breaking the equilibrium between these particles. Elder Dragons and the human gods (for example) have dammed this “obstacle”, but in two different ways: the formers are enslaved by magic, they live off of magic and are dependent; the seconds enslaved magic, they are not driven by it.

Where do you get that “too much magic makes one go insane”? The Six Gods don’t seem all that insane and they’re magical powerhouses.

Nothing really indicates that the Elder Dragons are insane either – god complex, sure, but that’s not insanity.

So I would say that no, we do not know this. And, in fact, I don’t think there’s anything that can be explicitly tied to implying this.

Sock.2785:

Chaos energy is deteriorating for the mind, it makes the magic user lose control of himself, not commanded by anyone/anything in particular really; an extreme case would be the unbound Anomalies. It appears as a combination of both dark energy and light energy: purplish blue.

Mesmers use chaos magic. Their minds do not deteriorate. Nor do assassins/thieves.

Sock.2785:

Dark energy makes one dependent to magic, and it’s also used by Elder Dragons (for example) to change other’s minds, imposing their will on them. It appears as fuchsia/pink; this colour is present in various regards of most Elder Dragons we’ve interacted so far: Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik, Jormag and Zhaitan; also Kudu is surrounded by it.

Necromancers use dark energy. They are not dependent on magic.

I would argue that if any Elder Dragon uses dark energy, it is only Zhaitan. However, I would actually argue that no Elder Dragon uses dark energy, as the energy they use is always described as draconic energy and, most importantly, is often mistaken for chaos energy not dark energy.

Furthermore, dark energy does not show itself as fuchsia or pink. The one time we see it used in GW2, we see it as ultraviolet. And when we see what could be it in GW1, it is basically shadow. In other words, “dark energy” is visually equivalent to “blacklight” – which appears closer to purple at the brightest.

It is, in fact, chaos magic that seems to appear as pink/fuchsia.

Sock.2785:

Light energy corresponds to the ascension of the mind, a complete control over magic. With this, the human gods are able to “gift” their magic (the magics in point 1) without subduing other’s minds. It appears as blue/light blue, for example: “divine fire” or even the “Blue Orb”.

Actually, the one time we see light energy used in GW1, it is in the Prime Hologram at the end of GW1, which was white – not blue.

As an aside, divine fire is white/gold, and has no color relation to the Blue Orb (or to blue/light blue). It seems you’re trying to go into two different directions.

Furthermore, there seems to be a distinct difference to me between light energy and divine magic. Divine magic has been tied solely to the gods and Forgotten, but light energy/magic is tied to the professions of faith – so there does seem to be similarity in the grounds. But where light magic can be consumed by Elder Dragons, divine magic (or rather, all magic tied to the Six/Forgotten) has had no instances yet of such (utilized by, yes, but not corrupted/consumed by).

Namely, the sources I’d tie to divine magic would be: Divine Fire, Foefire, the Forgotten’s ritual on Glint, the Exalting Rituals. All of these instances are tied to the Forgotten or Six Gods and have proven to be resistant to dragon corruption.

It was killed in the days prior to Destiny’s Edge’s forming (they officially became Destiny’s Edge during the celebration of the Dragonspawn’s death). The wiki is wrong. Simple as that. It happens. Already fixed it. The irony is that I’m the one who added that line. So I’m to blame.

The Dragonspawn’s death/forming of Destiny’s Edge and Glint’s death/Kralkatorrik’s awakening are really the only dates we know for the novel that we have – that they are one year apart.

Orr didn’t become corrupted again because the Pact kept on fighting. It’s not like they went “welp, Zhaitan’s dead, time to pack up and move out!”

They kept fighting. They kept seeing corruption spread – we see corruption spread. They kept seeing new risen being made.

They may have kept the Artesian Waters from being corrupted again, but that didn’t purify all of Orr immediately (as we see in Arah explorable, the entire city remains corrupted at that point), nor would it purify the outer lands, nor would it cease what risen champions remain (such as Tequatl and those fought in Arah explorable) from spreading corruption.

Furthermore, nothing says the risen were “greatly weakened” – in fact, the story ends with these words about the risen:

Trahearne: With Zhaitan defeated, the corruption it wrought can be undone.
Trahearne: The dragon’s undead minions that still infest Tyria will now gradually be exterminated.

Can be undone. Not is.

Risen still infest Tyria, but will gradually be exterminate.

It went from a seemingly impossible battle against a foe with seemingly infinite minions and corruption to a possible battle against a foe with diminishing minions and corruption. But the minions and corruption is still there, and more can – and are – still made.

As an aside, the risen actually did become a main focus – for one release – with Tequatl’s power boost.

When using “preservative” as an adjective, as Taimi does, the meaning is “acting to preserve something” – this can indeed mean to prevent decay and decomposition, just as it can mean to keep something from expiring in a more general sense. When applied to the living, this means preventing death – such as preserving a person in a coma.

Science fiction’s cryogenic freezing is a preservative for living beings, for example.

Daniel Handler.4816:

• Sylvari are not duplicates of humans. If they were they would have genitals that worked. The duplicate ability is new.
• Destroyer/Mordrem are clones, Icebrood/Branded/Risen corrupt the organism itself. Comparing the minions of one group to the other is a non sequitur. Unless you know of Destroyers who use the magic of the races they copy.

You kind of contradict yourself with these two. After all, mordrem and destroyers don’t have genitals – let alone genitals that work. So they could not be clones (read: duplicates) of what they’re copying.

Infertility is an innate part of being dragon minions. I’m not really sure what that has to do with sylvari being duplicates of humans or not. I mean, they’re more of a duplicate than any mordrem out there, that’s for sure.

The second point rather proves my point, however. You said that the ability for “clones” to use the original’s magic is because of death magic… but you outright agree that non-risen (read: non-death magic) can do the same.

As an aside: destroyers are not clones. Primordus does not take bodies (living or dead) as templates. He sees something then creates an off-hand mockery of them. They’re intended as mockeries, that’s the wording we got from Jeff Grubb, whereas Mordremoth is going after clones.

Daniel Handler.4816:

• the pale tree was on a graveyard. I can draw a pig just by looking at rotting corpses/skeleton. But to accurately map the inside I would need to dissect a pig. And that requires some sort of preservative or cold to keep the tissue from rotting during the long process. Blight pods could easily be magical jars of formaldehyde.

You say this as if the mordrem copies are perfectly matching the original on the inside. There is nothing to indicate this.

Daniel Handler.4816:

• The necro has gotten good at animating and not all minions degenerate health as they use too. Moreover necromancers have the ability to stop people from bleeding out. Therefore necros clearly have some sort of ability to prevent tissue from decaying further.

Minions not degenerating health is more mechanical than lore. And you say the rest as if other individuals don’t have the ability to preserve things.

Like, I don’t know, the preserving magical waters of the Maguuma Jungle that the mordrem are very clearly siphoning from?

Daniel Handler.4816:

At this point it doesn’t matter if things are reborn using plant matter, or just duplicated. The result is the same, and Mordremoth requires Zhaitan magic to do it.

The thing is that nothing but Taimi’s theory – which she ends with “I think” – indicates this.

You list the “proof” and “reasons” for it, but those things can easily be attributed to other things that the mordrem are actually going after and interacting with, or had done before having Zhaitan’s magic.

But just killing Zhaitan didn’t reverse the corruption – it just stopped Zhaitan from recorrupting a major power source.

However, Zhaitan’s death also doesn’t stop risen from corrupting things, as we see happen, with our own eyes, in Arah explorable, Seer Path

Re:Afflicted: You could actually see people killed by Afflicted, then ~5 seconds later rise up as Afflicted. At the same time, you could save those people from being killed, and they don’t become Afflicted (some few are scripted to die, but only a small amount).

Re:Cataclysm: In fact, the cinematic for Arah story (now part of the PS only) showed the Cataclysm. Bright bluish light shone from the ground high high up, and Orr began sinking in pieces. That’s all. Just the ground lighting up and collapsing – slowly, even, and straight down.

Which would explain why buildings are so in-tact after sinking and rising. Most of the damage we see likely came from the rising part!