Guild Wars 2

draxynnic.3719:

The precise line is “The jotun hid from the dragons, and the dwarves withdrew into their fortresses”

The full line is:

The elder races could not agree on what to do. The jotun hid from the dragons, and the dwarves withdrew into their fortresses. The Seers stored magic for use after the dragons returned to sleep.

This shows two things:

First, every race took a different action. In turn, this means that the so-called alliance from every single other source is a fabrication should this be accurate.

Second, all three actions are defensive, rather than offensive, measures. And we were told the dwarves went on the offensive.

draxynnic.3719:

Note that tablets II-IV could all be, and likely are, referring to a single slice of time – specifically, the time during which the mursaat and Forgotten planned and executed an attack on Zhaitan.

Given the full line, I find this quite the stretch. These things all happening simultaneously is unlikely in the first place, and the whole sounds to me to be talking about the actions during the dragonrise in general.

Furthermore, in the case of the dwarves, withdrawing into their fortresses is emphatically not equivalent to not fighting at all, if those fortresses are being attacked by the minions of Jormag and Primordus – particularly if those fortresses formed a line of defences that protected the other races from attacks coming from that direction.

The entire set of tablets is about fighting the Elder Dragons and how the other three races refused to do such.

That’s a heavy implication that the dwarves, jotun, and seers never had major battles with any Elder Dragon or their minions.

DuskyInsanePoet.4218:

With the amount of arguing going on in this forum, with interesting evidence on both sides, I feel that the writers have done a good job creating a morally grey race.
Good job, writers! Keep at it!

They’re not a morally gray race. They’re a morally questionable race, because we simply no longer know. Originally painted to be black, now they’re painted to be white-turned-black. There’s no gray there.

We’re left wondering whether they were good or evil not because their actions and reasons are questionable, but because we don’t know what their actions actually were anymore.

And that is bad writing.

Stitch.1794:

The Great Destroyer is the exception, can’t blame humans for that one.

It was humans who released the titans (Khilbron aided by the PC), a human who caused the jade wind and affliction (Shiro), a human who started nightfall (Varesh) and a human who released Palawa Joko (PC).

So you don’t blame humanity for when Elder Dragons rise… but you blame humanity when an evil forgotten god rises?

Khilbron, Shiro, and Varesh may have been humans, but their actions were orchestrated by demons and, in turn by hierarchy, Abaddon.

Joko’s freedom was also caused by Nightfall – Abaddon’s pull for freedom from the Realm of Torment – not really humans. Nightfall might have been directly caused by Varesh, but she (like Shiro and Khilbron) was but a puppet on strings pulled by Abaddon.

That would be like blaming the Disc of Chaos for threatening the world, instead of Primordus.

In storywriting, there are two types of retroactive continuities:

Turning a believed-truth (read: second-hand information) to be a cover up, lie, or subjective truth, and turning an objective truth into a different objective truth.

The Bloodstone lore, like the lore on Abaddon versus there being only five gods, or Glint’s true origins, is the former – taking lore and turning it into a subjective truth. These are nothing to get upset about – sometimes better ideas come, and these require changing the lore a bit. If they’re done well, then there’s no reason to be upset.

Other things that I, personally, have been upset about (such as the lore around Scarlet) is when the writers change an obviously objective truth and inserting a new obviously objective truth (like the fact that we were explicitly told the Secondborn were born 6-7 years after the Firstborn, but then Scarlet came and Secondborn were born 2 years after). Now, sometimes – like said Secondborn example – the change makes sense. I mean, in that case, could we really believe the twelve Firstborn existed in the world for 5+ years without being known (the first contact between sylvari and another race happened after the Secondborn were born).

The mursaat tablets are another objective truth being retconned – but not so much in the “mursaat were misunderstood good guys” as there’s obviously going to be some bias therefore the tablets aren’t 100% accurate off the bat, but rather the retcon comes in the claims about what the other races are doing. Or rather, I should say, it is either a retcon or a blatant lie from the mursaat that was very poorly telegraphed by ArenaNet.

One of said retcon/bad-writing-lies was the actions of the dwarves, as we know they did not go into hiding until all races did, and we know that they fought Primordus and Jormag – despite the mursaat claiming they fought none.

I wouldn’t be so fast to dismissed the 1769 for Forgotten being false. Glint is – repeatedly – giving and given 3,000 years for her age – both in GW1 and GW2. That would be around 1769 BE. We also have “over 2,000 years ago” for the age of dwarven civilization. And we have modern experts on Forgotten lore, namely Warden Illyra, [restating that they came from the Mists.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Forgotten_Not_Forgotten)

With the 10,000 years thing being the last dragonrise, rather than “a previous” dragonrise, we’ve only had Priory proclamations and a jotun telescope the accuracy of which is proclaimed right by a Priory scholar but no direct evidence for us to be really certain (well, actually, she says 10,000 years ago – so 8,775 BE if precise, 9,000 rounded to the nearest thousand years), and just recently the mursaat tablets.

Basically, ArenaNet is inconsistent in whether they make the events of the last dragonrise being 10,000 years ago or 3,000 years ago.

Also, on #2 in the OP: That’s when humanity sailed to Tyria and Elona. They were on the world for at least 300 years earlier (landing on Cantha then) and could have been around even longer elsewhere (likely the “Sunrise Crest” on the latest world map). The Orrian History Scrolls do say that they arrived on the world at Orr, but it could be 1) Orrian propaganda (aka what I call the massive ‘wrongness’ of The History of Tyria aka Prophecies manual aka the lore reason for it being retconed) or 2) that humans were brought to the world at Orr, then teleported to the last man, woman, and child to another land where they developed and sailed – possibly under the guise of a god or gods – back to Orr.

1. They likely are using the Current Events as a ‘side story’. They probably thought this didn’t merit enough of a focus on the main plot to put into the main releases. I see the Current Events as akin to the Kiel stuff during Season 1 – the main plot was Scarlet, but Kiel, the Consortium, and Evon had this side plot that affected the main plot quite a bit.
2. Honestly, no clue. I do hope that if there’s some split in plot, that ArenaNet tells us a short “alternate path” – what would have happened if it went the other way, like when they told us that LA would have had more defenses and thus not so destroyed but still inevitably destroyed had Evon won.
3. We know what souls look like so I’m heavily doubting that. Plus they appeared before the bloodstone exploded. If they aren’t djinn being born, then the theory that they are surviving mursaat that remained “phased out” is a good probability.

Hagenfels.8730:

I take a wild guess, it is some kind of “hidden” voting.
The vote beeing: Using the Stone vs Giving it to the Consortium.
The result of the vote will influence future events.

I kind of thought they were doing this back when they added the first Priory v Consortium stuff with the drops from the black lion chest and the ley line defenses.

It’s possible those were not effective in gauging, so they did this.

Drax, I’m pretty sure omission isn’t when you’re explicitly stating something that isn’t true (that the dwarves “hid in their fortresses”). If the mursaat never mentioned the dwarves, or merely said they didn’t fight Zhaitan, then I’d say a lie of omission – even if it was “they didn’t fight the Elder Dragons” it could be argued to be subjective truth of mursaat not knowing the dwarves fought Jormag’s and Primordus’ minions.

And no, the contradiction doesn’t lie in the mursaat and Forgotten launching a joint assault. If anything, that may be the singular piece of lore that doesn’t seem off from those tablets.

Risen are not traditional undead, it should be noted. It’s not really different from other Elder Dragons’ corruption except the end appearance is that of a rotting corpse (even if the corpse is nice and fresh or Zhaitan corrupted a living being, the appearance is of heavy decay) instead of ice, crystal, etc.

But as to the OP: Yes, but rarely. Liches like Khilbron and Joko were both capable of creating sapient undead. “Normal” necromancers can reanimate corpses into undead, but they never show sapience, just – at best – sentience but still no communication.

Resurrection was once possible, but the magic for such has been lost in the 250 years since GW1’s time.

Her suit made me think of Scarlet more than Kudu. The shoulders specifically look like a mirrored Magitech armor gear.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Taimi.jpg
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Magitech_armor_asura_female_front.jpg

Or on human female meta:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Magitech_armor_human_female_front.jpg
http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/gw2-taimis-outfit-human-female.jpg

Given her fascination with Scarlet, the influence wouldn’t be surprising.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

That’s not really a contradiction; only a specific circumstance. Magic can do more than one rigidly-defined thing. The domain of death can cover both; corrupting the living into a walking corpse, and raising the dead as Risen.

Look at the schools of magic, after all: they were never this rigidly defined. It would be like arguing that Rotting Flesh cannot be death magic, because death magic takes the form of messing with corpses.

Except death magic doesn’t take the form of messing with corpses. That’s what you’ve been saying until now – that’s what Taimi is saying.

What I’ve been saying is that death magic results in the decay and death of things, and the manipulation of death.

I am saying that magic is not rigidly defined. And that, by extension, the mere messing with corpses does not instantly label it as Death Magic.

Which is what Taimi is saying. “They copy corpses, so it must be death magic” is her conclusion, summarized into simplest form. And I’m saying that makes no sense, because messing with corpses can be done by non-death magic; death magic just result in corpse-like things (super simplification) but is not required for messing with corpses (even though that is death magic’s forte).

There is nothing that results in death and decay. There is the utilization of dead things, but why would plant magic be so rigid as to not be able to utilize a corpse? Is plant magic so rigidly defined?

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

It makes no sense because I never actually did equate “domain of death” with “domain of corrupting corpses”. I argued that raising the dead as Risen would come under the purview of “death”, because it deals so heavily with death and the dead.

You, actually, were – and so does Taimi.

Further, the thing is that Zhaitan is not raising the dead. All Elder Dragon corruption is – for every Elder Dragon – taking Material A and animating it into Material B.

Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan, Primordus, Mordremoth, DSD, Jormag – they could all take a corpse (Material A) and change it into something else, but that ‘something else’ (Material will differ. Respectively it would be: Crystal, decayed flesh, fire/lava, plant, tentacles (best to our knowledge), and ice.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

You seem to be excluding it because for the other dragons, the first domain reflects the physical manifestation of the corruption. Who’s to say that is necessarily always the case?

Because it happens 100% of the time.

Whenever anything is touched by Zhaitan’s corruption, it results in poison and decay.

Whenever anything is touched by Jormag’s corruption, it results in ice.

Whenever anything is touched by Kralkatorrik’s corruption, it becomes crystalline.

This happens 100% of the time. Without question. Regardless of what’s corrupted.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Grenth knows the variety of kinds of corruption and methodology differs hugely even for each dragon.

Methologies vary – I outright stated this in my previous posts – but not the “kinds of corruption” if what you refer to is the outcome appearance. Every Elder Dragon has had one, singular, appearance for its corruption.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Really? Sylvari/Mordrem Guard and Plant?

Technically, nothing says that whatever the Pale Tree uses as materials to make sylvari is plants. It results in plants, because that’s Mordremoth’s domain.

Material A (Unknown in this case; Variable in general) becomes Material B (Plant in this case).

This is what I’ve been saying the entire time.

TL;DR

Dragon corruption can be summarized and defined in two sentences:

• Material A (Corrupted Victim) becomes Material B (Domain).
• Will of Material A (Corrupted Victim), if exists, is overridden by Will of Elder Dragon.

The outcome appearance is always the same. The enslavement of will always occurs (exception: purified dragon champions, e.g., Glint and Pale Tree(s)).

Taimi is claiming that because Material A was corpse, regardless of Material B, the Domain of Death was used (specifically: “Material A (corpse) becomes Material B (Plant), therefore Domain of Death used”); this does not fit the empirical evidence of every single situation of dragon corruption everywhere.

Stitch.1794:

Episode 2 hasn’t definitively said that the mursaat were betrayed, it just has the mursaat claim they were betrayed. Lying about their history to cover up their crimes and make themselves seem the wronged party is entirely in keeping with what we’ve seen of the mursaat in the past.

It… really isn’t.

Because we don’t know how the mursaat justified the sacrifice of the chosen, or the war with the Seers.

In GW1, the only dialogue we got from a mursaat was quite literally from Lazarus in EotN, and Optimus Caliph in the BMP. The former case is just tauntings and swearing of revenge. The latter is acting of pretending to being benevolent-at-unknown-cost gods.

Of course, this means it could fit them, but neither Lazarus nor Caliph ever actually lied about or justified anything. Caliph literally said “we will help you, but there will be a cost to our help and you must be prepared to pay it” without ever saying what that cost is (the death of all non-fanatic who saw them).

What little we have from the mursaat’s own mouths is non-full truths and nothing but. They never lied. They just weren’t clear in what they meant.

Stitch.1794:

This also wouldn’t be the first time we’ve seen conflicting histories like this, with the human and charr histories differing to each make it seem like the other race was the villain.

The thing is that there’s a huge conflict of known history in that the mursaat version is practically 100% different. Particularly around the actions of the Seers and dwarves (especially dwarves).

Except that they weren’t anti-heroes.

They were always villains.

They weren’t out to save the world. They were out to save themselves. And sacrificed thousands while manipulating leadership of one species and committed genocide of another species.

Then Episode 2 came, which redacted “they betrayed the others” into “they were betrayed” with questions raised.

Your comment is rather contradicting itself.

If “the living decaying” is the form the domain’s corruption takes, then it’s not “the corruption of corpses” that is the domain, because it means that both living and dead are turned into the corruption.

Zhaitan does it on a scale greater, but that doesn’t make rising corpses to be the domain – it’s just what he does more. If “domain of death” equated “domain of corrupting corpses” were the domain, then as I said (what you never addressed), then Jormag would have the domain of willing converts, and Kralkatorrik the domain of physical touch. Which makes no sense.

And what about the land, water, plant, and air that Zhaitan corrupts? The outcome is all the same, but the subject varies. Same goes with what Kralkatorrik corrupts – living beings, land, water, plant, and air – and what Jormag corrupts – living beings, corpses, land, water – and what Primordus corrupts – living beings, land, lava.

By all indication, Elder Dragons can corrupt anything (or nearly so – Foefire ghosts seem immune; Exalted are immune), but how that corruption takes form (death, ice, crystal, fire, plant) varies… and that variable matches the first domain they have.

Yes, there may be some overlap between the Elder Dragons’ domains – like the supposed domain of sky for Kralkatorrik including the fire of the sun (going off of the aspects the Zephyrites got from Glint’s magic) – but the subject of corruption is never shown to be part of the Elder Dragons’ domain.

Zilong.1407:

Just to make sure, you do know that most of their actions were taken to safeguard the world from the return of the titans by keeping the Door of Komali shut right? As the players back in GW1 we kinda screwed the pooch on that one and then had to fix it again in Nightfall.

False.

Their actions were taken to safeguard THEMSELVES and only themselves.

Until Episode 2, there was never, ever, any indication that the mursaat cared about anyone but themselves.

And we fixed in the final mission and post-story quests (dubbed the titan quests). Nightfall had nothing to do with cleaning up the mess made in Prophecies, though we find out that Khilbron and the titans were tied to Abaddon and that we, in fixing our mess in Prophecies, inadvertently slowed Abaddon’s plans.

X T D.6458:

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

The enemy of my enemy is also my enemy. Who just might be a temporary ally to fight the bigger threat… until they become the bigger threat via deception that is the mursaat MO.

Same thing we did with Joko. Except for one thing…

X T D.6458:

Cough…Palawa Joko…Cough…

Joko never even pretended to be our permanent ally. He saw us as useful tools, we saw him as a necessary evil.

There was no redemption. Not even deception. Everyone knew exactly where things stood.

But we also see Zhaitan “exploiting” the living and plants in the exact same manner as the other Elder Dragons. We’re told that Primordus can corrupt living but never see it; we are told Jormag corrupts willing subjects – does that make Jormag’s first domain “willing living beings”? That makes no sense.

The first domain is not what’s corrupted. It’s what the corruption takes the form of.

Otherwise Kralkatorrik would be the Elder Flesh Dragon, and Jormag would be the Elder Convert Dragon.

I don’t see what Primordus absorbing Mordremoth’s magic in 1329 AE has to do with the mordrem that appeared in Iron Marches in Season 2 being literally five feet from Kralkatorrik’s corruption and minions (the Dragonbrand and branded( in 1328 AE with no open conflict exiting.

I will also note that we don’t see any mordrem near destroyers – though we did have such during the mordrem invasion last year in September in Brisban Wildlands. But IIRC, mordrem didn’t attack anything but players until there was splash damage dealt so lack of conflict in that short-lived event could be chalked up to laziness/oversight-in-haste with mechanical design. Even if that was intended in lore for some reason, that was still over a month before Mordremoth’s death in lore.

I think what Sartharina meant by criminals causing support from commoners is that often criminal actions are made blame on Jennah (in commoner PS, when you let the well be poisoned, the dialogue blames the Seraph and Jennah iirc) and are focused, subliminally, on supporters of Jennah.

gryph.8734:

I stand by my assertion, though it is pure speculation on my part. If we apply human/sapient standards of behavior to real predators on earth, some of their behavior might look downright evil at times, as well: toying with kills, appearing to take pleasure at the suffering of their prey. But that’s exactly what it is; application of human standards to a species that doesn’t recognize rights or morality simply because it’s incapable of doing so.

Depends on how you view it. Without other sapient and, more importantly, communicating species to interact with we cannot really be certain if the things you mention are “human” or merely “civilized”. After all, there are – and were – human cultures who developed with a completely different sense of what is “right” and what is “wrong”.

But in the fictional world of Tyria, there are communicating non-human creatures, and the Elder Dragons are among those numbers.

So when looking at the morality and ethics of other species in a fictional universe, reality comparisons don’t really work because, simply put, in reality there is no other known species which are sapient, civilized, and communicate with us.

(I would argue, on an aside, that even animals are not without morals of their own – it’s just that theirs are so vastly different than ours due to a different lifestyle, culture, means of communication, and so forth. But this is, in a way, an entirely different can of worms.)

gryph.8734:

Does any of this apply to the elder dragons? I’m honestly not sure. A predator/prey relationship is one way to look at this, and I’m not sure if that’s even what the developers intended, but I find the idea interesting. I could imagine scholars at the Durmand Priory debating just such a thing, almost certainly over the objections of the militant Vigil.

Would you say that the charr are exempt from laws of morality, simply for not being human? Or grawl? Would you list the krait as simply a species functioning on predator/prey relationships and are thus unencumbered by ethical discussion in regards to their enslavement and sacrifices of sapient and non-sapient species?

gryph.8734:

• Elder dragons do not cooperate. The demonstrated tendancy of their minions to fight each other (established in lore) does in fact suggest a predator/prey relationship.

This “salient fact” actually may not be such a fact. It was established in a lore interview with Ree Soesbee that dragon minions fight… but then in a separate interview with Angel McCoy, she said it was “up in the air” and unknown to Tyrian scholars; and in Season 2, we see mordrem right next to branded with… zero conflict.

Wouldn’t surprise me if yet another thing Ree stated in interviews has been retconned by the current “writers”.

gryph.8734:

• No matter how powerful elder dragons get, no matter how long they stay awake, magic is finite and eventually the dragons must sleep, even if it takes centuries or millenia, even if it takes until the face of Tyria is scoured clean of life.

However, one must ask that if a) there were not six and/or b) they were not actively in an arms race against each other to consume the most magic for their own personal goals, but instead slowly managed magic over time, would the world really run out of magic and force them to sleep?

The only fact there is simply: magic is finite, and thus far in the past, the Elder Dragons have always consumed magic at a rate which eventually put them to sleep due to running out of magic to eat.

Whether they must eventually go to sleep has not been answered. They’ve never – to our knowledge – attempted proper management of magic consumption.

gryph.8734:

Both Zhaitan and Mordremoth have issued pretty explicit threats, though they have always done so through proxies. Earth predators don’t have the privilege of assembling armies of minions to do their hunting for them as the elder dragons do. And so the debate rages on…

Mordremoth was talking directly from its own mouth (both literally and metaphorically) when it threatened us.

Earth predators don’t tend to overhunt their hunting grounds, unless they’re an invasive species and simply cannot survive on the meager amount of food their new homes offer.

gryph.8734:

Even that depends on what you mean by “evil.” The dragons sleep and ooze magic, they wake up hungry, then they consume magic, and finally they are sated and can go back to sleep once more. That sounds like any number of naturally-occurring species to me, granted on a much larger scale than any extant ecosystem on our Earth.

Eh…

They can do all that without intentionally wiping out entire civilizations, turning living beings into monstrocities, setting loved ones against each other, enslaving said living beings by overwriting their free will, and threatening genocide.

If all they did was wake up, eat magic, then go back to sleep to leak it out… they’d not be villains. Because they wouldn’t be assaulting all known civilizations and creating vast hordes of minions to do so.

The Elder Dragons are very clearly intelligent and very clearly function with their own personal goal in mind which is not merely (and possibly doesn’t even include) the balancing of magic.

Zhaitan’s champions all talked about eternal life through undeath and the reunion (and lack of loss) of loved ones and friends, while Zhaitan sat in a rather literal kingdom of undead (stations and ranks retained besides kings/queens, risen resumed their work from when non-corrupted, but all were enslaved to Zhaitan’s will). (Which makes one wonder what led Zhaitan to focus on offering reuninion with loved ones…).

Mordremoth personally talks about being the world and being home, while those it corrupted talk about destroying the world, and Mordremoth being truth, indicating a desire and goal to replace the known world and become the sustainer of life.

Jormag offers power (and not just via the Sons of Svanir doctrine), takes primarily willing converts, and even lets go unwilling yet powerful individuals (Frozen Portal hero challenge in Frostgorge), indicating an intent to turn the world into where “survival of the fittest” is law, without intent of corrupting all life unlike the other Elder Dragons (in a way, this makes Jormag the least evil Elder Dragon).

Etc. etc.

Honestly, the Elder Dragons have not gotten the screentime the small, staggeringly spread out hints of their personas deserve. If it were a comic with a humanoid villain, I feel the plot against Zhaitan would have featured a mini-series or set of chapters featuring a flashback to what led Zhaitan down a dark path that included ensuring his “subjects” never lose loved ones, like a personal loss himself while trying to become a good ruler and was betrayed by his own subjects or something.

And now I have images of a dragon kingdom where Zhaitan ruled in ancient Tyria… and I want said comic to be a thing, even if for nothing but laughs at the silliness of the prospect.

Sartharina.3542:

1. She’s a mesmer, as is her closest advisor. There’s no way to tell if a supporter of hers is not brainwashed or even real.

On this, the Mesmer Collective has, per the lore we’ve gotten, gone to extensive lengths to mitigate any commonplace knowledge about mesmers affecting individuals’ mental perceptions. This is tied, somewhat, to how mesmer skills in GW2 largely focus on altering reality rather than mental alterations like GW1 skills did.

So only the tinfoil hat folks, should, be the ones thinking and spreading about brainwashed supporters. This would be relatively on par to “Bush did 911” stuff.

Sartharina.3542:

3. Her guards, the Seraph, have failed to protect the common people from Centaurs and Bandits. Ministry-controlled lands do not have these problems.

This is actually rather false. The only lands lacking these problems is the inside of Beetletun’s walls (their farms still suffer). “Ministry-controlled lands” actually is… all of Kryta. Ministers govern over segments of Kryta, like Senators over states in the US (not best comparison, but a relatively well known enough one).

Furthermore, the Seraph actually were doing well last we saw or heard about, with killing the Modniir leadership (Harathi meta). Though we haven’t had an update about Kryta’s state of affairs with centaurs since release content, aside from one very ambiguous line from Jennah during the World Summit which doesn’t comment upon the Seraph’s effectiveness.

Sartharina.3542:

You’ve got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the New West. You know…morons.

I think the people within DR would have a greater say in things than folks out in the country, days and weeks away from the capital.

And city folks would be less swayed by “the countryside is under assault” – I mean, they didn’t really care about Zhaitan marching minions out of the Krytan swamps…

Because that’s how the first domain functions. The first domains – Crystal, Fire, Ice, Plant, Death – are what the Elder Dragons’ corruption takes the form of.

Further, just corrupting corpses is not what Zhaitan’s domain is, as proven by the fact that other Elder Dragons’ dragon champions corrupted corpses or used corpses as templates long before Zhaitan’s death.

The Vine-Touched Destroyers appear as corrupted rock and lava covered in vines. Death-Touched Destroyers and Rotting Destroyers and the Destroyer of Hope/Molten Dominator appear as corrupted rock and lava surrounded by auras of putrid, decay, and rot.

We never see an equivalent of the latter there among the mordrem. Closest I can think of is the adult mordrem wyverns and the trolls/wolves, but the latter are already confirmed to be a case of bodies directly corrupted and slowly turning to plant (like how icebrood slowly turn to ice and bone) rather than copied.

Ogwom.7940:

So basically, in Guild Wars one, there was a faction of dwarves called the Brotherhood of the Dragon. We last saw them protecting Glint’s first scion, Gleam in the Depths of Tyria (near The Central Transfer Chamber I believe), fighting destroyers trying to kill/corrupt it. This mission is similar to that of the protection of Aurene.
I was thinking that possibly Gleam may still be alive and is protected and ‘connected through mind’ by the Brotherhood of the Dragon, just like how we are protecting Aurene and ‘connected through mind’ with her.

The Brotherhood of the Dragon all – like the rest of the dwarves – underwent the Rite of the Great Dwarf. Ogden calls himself the last member of the Brotherhood.

So I’m doubtful.

Ogwom.7940:

Also, in the second season of living story (don’t remember the episode), we were able to travel to Glint’s layer and watch the Master of Peace receive the egg containing Aurene by an unseen/unknown character.
Who could that character possibly be? A member The Brotherhood of the Dragon?

Common theory is that the voice belongs to Gleam.

Randulf.7614:

We could just ask Marjory or Kasmeer. They appeared to recognise the entity passing on the egg. Whoever it was handed the egg down from height and I remember Gleam being speculated at the time on the forums.

I do not recall any indication that they knew the voice’s owner. Where is this indicated for you?

(Edit: Okay, I see what you mean.

Mysterious Voice: You must promise to protect it with your life. Will you?
Marjory Delaqua: What…was…that?
Kasmeer Meade: It couldn’t be…

Which does indicate that Kasmeer – maybe, maybe not Marjory – might recognize the voice… which makes me want to say the voice is E’s.)

Randulf.7614:

Perhaps there are multiple Glint offspring set up in hidden locations like Tarir, to absorb the excess magic when the Dragons are defeated and perhaps we will discover another location in the Shiverpeaks or in the Crystal Desert. Multiple Dragons absorbing magic would seem a better “failsafe” than one lone baby “Super Dragon” absorbing so much.

The egg is stated to be the last surviving egg, and when hatched, Aurene is called “Glint’s Second Scion”.

This means that all other eggs were destroyed before they could hatch, leaving only Gleam and Aurene.

Lord Hammer Hand.4815:

hi, so here’s the problem, the zephyrites including master of peace are members of brotherhood of the dragon. so why would the master of peace not know that one of his member has the egg the first place? also they all went to glints lair together to get her dead body not for the egg. meaning no one in the brotherhood of the dragons knows there is an egg.

It’s less that the Zephyrites are members of the Brotherhood of the Dragon, and more that the Zephyrites are the Brotherhood’s spiritual successors.

Re: Death Mordrem

I honestly don’t think we see any mordrem that are utilizing the domain of death. I think Taimi is just simply plain wrong – taking a new discovery and proclaiming a fact that is nothing more than an unproven theory.

Mordrem Trolls are, according to Scott McGough, corrupted while alive – and Mordrem Wolves, whether corrupted alive or dead, are not suddenly decayed, which is how Zhaitan’s corruption of the domain of death took form.

Keep in mind that in Edge of Destiny, Jormag corrupts corpses – so simply corrupting corpses is not the domain of death that Zhaitan had command over. Also keep in mind that Zhaitan corrupted plants, living, water, sky, and land as well (so too, does Kralkatorrik, and sans plants and sky, so does Jormag).

On top of it, unless they decided to retcon [this interview](http://www.talktyria.net/2011/08/11/sylvari-lore-interview-with-ree-soesbee-kristen-perry/) as well, sylvari were created by using the humans who died around the Pale Tree as templates, obviously less defined as mordrem from the Blighting Trees, but the same method used – the one that Taimi attributes to being due to Zhaitan’s death.

Re: Omadd Machine Vision

What we saw was The All. The spheres are, directly, domains of power – the exact nature of such is unknown. Some scholars theorize stars, others theorize spirit realms, and still others theorize the Elder Dragons themselves. What is known is that the Elder Dragons are directly tied to these domains by sets of two domains per Elder Dragon. Whether there this means the spheres are the Elder Dragons or simply groupings of domains is unknown.

The spheres do, however, become active in the order of the Elder Dragon awakenings – but this could be a reactionary thing rather than a direct showing of their awakenings – and the Pact Commander says that an Elder Dragon “stared at them” in the vision, though the Commander has been wrong about things before (everyone has).

The orb of Zhaitan’s domains were not just death magic but also shadow magic.

As to what this means… I don’t think it really changes the meaning – we always figured it meant magic returned to the world and was going to make things bad in the long run. It just changes how we interpret the specifics of things, which ultimately just adds “can be absorbed by the other ED” which, truth be told, was theorized back since S2E8 when the Shadow of the Dragon used Shadow Tendrils and Smothering Shadows in its battle.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Emphasis here on supposedly. Not irrate at you specifically, but this has come up several times recently.

Before launch we were given a couple possible explanations for why sylvari look like humans, and using Ronan’s village as a template was only one of them. Yes, after HoT launched, we saw the blighting trees and decided they were proof for that particular theory, but now the game is telling us that they’re not. There’s no sense in us hanging on to this ‘fact’ when the support for it has been removed.

Actually, we were explicitly told that was the case, after we got told a couple in-universe theories about the reason for the situation.

But that was in an interview with Ree Soesbee, so it seems like many of her other interviews they’ve retconned it.

Doesn’t change the fact, however, that we see no decay in the mordrem (how Zhaitan’s death corruption manifested – not the corruption of corpses), and even before Zhaitan’s death Jormag was already corrupting corpses.

It would seem far more likely to me that Taimi in this case was simply wrong and Mordremoth had taken only the domain of shadow, thus explaining the Shadow of the Dragon appearing from the Dream (originally described as being Zhaitan’s depiction within the Dream, Zhaitan’s shadow if you will) and its summoned Shadow Tendrils and Smothering Shadows.

Though the lack of further shadow evidence should be called into question there…

Aaron Ansari.1604:

remember that Faolain was conveniently tossed offscreen and not confirmed dead).

A dev – I think Matthew Medina? – confirmed she wasn’t dead when corrupted into a pseudo-Vinetooth.

Rognik.2579:

Those duplicates were exactly copies, short of being made of flesh, while I don’t think any of the corpses from the blighting trees were recognisable after the transformation.

Mordrem saurians. Mordrem hylek.

They’re as much of an exact copy as Mordrem Zojja/Logan were, the hylek ones oddly talking even. They were taken as both corpse and living.

Rognik.2579:

Plus, it’s possible that Logan and Zojja had only recently been put in the pods, or at least not as long as we believed. -snip- Maybe they needed to be starved in preparation or some such.

According to Taimi, the Blighting Pod fluids have “great preservative properties” – so one would think that the pods were designed to keep victims alive, or from decaying if already dead.

They actually didn’t leave their order, however, they did effectively distance themselves from it, just as charr do to their legion.

The thing is that not everyone in asuran society, but they pretend to be and aim to be.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

The minion reformer angle is an intriguing interpretation, but I’m not certain I buy it just yet. The main issue is that these simply have the fish putting out a greater output than they could possibly carry, rather it be whole minions or liquidized components.

You still hit the issue of what they’re making the risen out of, though, as risen are corrupted corpses…

Either way, their rate of making minions – whether it is corrupting corpses, reforming bodyparts, or whathaveyou – is less than a dragon champion’s.

Underdark.3726:

Ah, OK.
I always assumed champions are more a fighting and destructing forces. And the Pale Tree is not really corrupting, isn’t she? She (is it a she or a it?) can’t corrupt another living thing into mordrem, right? I see her more as a general who via dream gives orders.
One more question: if the Pale Tree did absorb the magic and became stronger are the new born sylvari also stronger?

Pale Tree identifies as a she. :P

As for corrupting… Mordremoth didn’t corrupt living beings (or dead ones) either. Like Primordus, mordrem are “created” out of inanimate materials – in this case, it seems to be plants. I use the term created loosely, as they’re still corrupting things – it’s just that they are not corrupting living beings. A lot of people seem to think that destroyers and mordrem are made from corruption just because they’re not made from corrupted beings.

The Pale Tree doesn’t give the sylvari orders via the Dream. You’re likely thinking of Wyld Hunts, which are given by the Dream itself – just as Dark Hunts are given by the Nightmare. Both Dream and Nightmare are independent of both Pale Tree and Mordremoth. Like the White Stag, the Pale Tree and Mordremoth are connected to the Dream, but neither creator nor controller.

To your new question: Theoretically possible, but other dragon minions (and Elder Dragons), they can control how much magic (thus power and intellect) a new minions gets. In turn, this means the Pale Tree can control how much power and intellect (thus magic) a newborn sylvari gets.

There was mention by devs in an interview that Tyria was under a lot of strife and that’s why they went out of Tyria – the strife in question was never mentioned, though, but the time period would have been ~50 years after EotN. Which is literally a dead space in lore for us beyond “forming of Zephyrites/Exalted, last of the dwarves undergo the Rite, Primordus wakes up for reals”.

Only one such ogre, the chieftain which to me seems to have been made a dragon champion (directing all the other minions and all that), so I wouldn’t say that’s a good argument.

1. No. Not all dragons are Elder Dragons. GW1 had a large variety of dragons, and only Glint was tied to the Elder Dragons then – indication in lore is that she was a dragon before being corrupted by Kralkatorrik even, though this is still largely speculation. Glint does mention a world in the past where dragons ruled, but whether this refers to the previous dragonrise or a time more ancient is also unknown. Either way, there’s indications of many species of dragons and dragon-like kin (I’ve counted 5 confirmed, 6 speculated such species).

We largely speak of Elder Dragons – and their minions – when talking of dragons because that’s the only kind of dragons that Tyrians deal with anymore… until wyverns.

2. Glint turned against Kralkatorrik millenia before Destiny’s Edge was forged or born. She was both a dragon and Kralkatorrik’s champion. This is what she looked like in GW1.

3. In theory, yes, she’d need to consume magic to live and as a result of doing such she can potentially become more powerful. We do not know what her own motives are, but do human babies have motives in the months after being born?

The whole point seems to be (note: still theory since Anet likes to keep players in the dark about vitally important things for the sake of “mystery” even though that’s not a mystery at all) raising a dragon who could become a benevolent Elder Dragon. Nurturing Aurene to be compassionate about the races, whereas the Elder Dragons are malevolent. And on top of that, it’s believed that we’ll be getting Aurene (and maybe her elder sibling, Gleam) to be replacements for the six Elder Dragons in full.

Firstly, I never meant that dragon champions are the only way for corruption to occur, but rather, their presence is required for fast corruption – minion making in large numbers in short amount of time.

I get that primarily from:

Centurion Bloodfist: “While you were out playing Devourer Hunt, I received a report of something festering in the Brand.”
Centurion Bloodfist: “A number of Iron Legion regulars went missing just north of our current position.”
Centurion Bloodfist: “The legion sent a search party.”
Sentinel Whiptail: “Let me guess. They went missing, too.”
Centurion Bloodfist: “No, they came back the very next day-as Branded, bringing destruction to the Legion’s rear defenses.”
Sentinel Whiptail: “But nothing short of a full crystal lieutenant could turn them so fast!”
Centurion Bloodfist: “Generally, yes. But there have been no sightings here for weeks. We think we’re dealing with something new.”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Destroy_Branded_devourer_nests

Given this, it’s not exclusive – so there’s reason to believe that the “risen replicators” and the “blighting blisters” are exceptions to the rules – but in most cases a dragon champion would be needed for making a lot of minions in a short amount of time – like what Blighitng Trees and the Pale Tree does.

It should be noted that the blighting blisters don’t make a large number of minions in a short period of time, and to me the risen replicators (iirc which event had them) came off more as being transportation of minions (like the ice crystals the Claws of Jormag drop) and/or minion-reformers (similar to that Mount Maelstrom event where a bunch of risen parts pull themselves together to form a risen abomination). But the dialogue doesn’t seem to be on the wiki so I’m unsure on the replicator part.

Squee.7829:

I’m not sure if this post has moved too far past this point or not, but do you think it’s possible the Pale Tree was so disconnected from Mordremoth’s influence is because it grew in a river infested with bloodstone magic? The bloodstones were, in fact designed to hide or hold things (a thing. Magic) from dragons.

Or do you think it was too far down the river to really matter? I think the water around the Pale Tree in EotN lacked the buff you get further up river.

Tarnished Coast never had the maguuma healing waters in GW1, definitely don’t in GW2. I don’t think that’s close enough to those waters.

Furthermore, if this was what gave the Pale Tree freedom, then the High Priests of Arah would have broken free of Zhaitan’s enslavement, as they had bloodstone shards – and those are no doubt more powerful than the theoretical bloodstone-powered waters.

Rognik.2579:

There are two types of sleeper agents, at least in fiction: those who know they are sleeper agents, lying to everyone; and those who don’t, and are activated. In this case, the sylvari are the latter kind, triggered by Mordremoth speaking in their mind.

There’s a problem with this theory, however:

Why would Mordremoth, with its god complex and belief that all others are beneath any form of interest beyond those who have killed another Elder Dragon (Destiny’s Edge, Trahearne, and the Pact Commander), something that hadn’t happen in multiple cycles of waking, bother to plant a race into society without them being enslave to his will when the very nature of dragon corruption is to have all minions enslaved to their will?

And the second problem is the ending to the first: why would the sylvari not be enslaved if not purified against Mordremoth’s intentions? They don’t need free will to be sleeper agents, and giving them free will creates the possibility that they would rebel.

Rognik.2579:

And how do you know that Mordremoth’s minions are not sentient? We never studied the mordrem like we did the others. We can’t even compare them to the other dragons, because by his very nature (having the Mind aspect), he can potentially bestow something the other dragons can’t: conscious thought.

Because not a single one of the “grunt” minions talk, or behave in any way that differentiates them from other mindless dragon minions: wandering about killing all in sight.

Dragon minions can typically be labeled into three categories, which I dub: Grunts, Lieutenants, and Champions.

Grunts are mindless (in the case of those created out of inanimate objects like destroyers and mordrem oft are) and nigh-mindless (in the case of those created out of bodies, like risen, icebrood, and branded oft are) and are overall fairly week. Their actions are, when no lieutenant or champion present, largely restricted to “wander aimlessly and kill all non-minions”.

Lieutenants are stronger and smarter, they react to the world and – when a corrupted being (living or dead) – they have a semblance of their old personality to them (such as many veteran risen we see throughout Orr, like Kitah’s Conjurer – or the risen on the Indomitable in Sea of Sorrows that drax talks about though he named the wrong novel). They tend to function solo, but react – often with speech and tauntings – to others in more than a “see it, kill it” manner that grunts function in.

The champions, the strongest and smartest group, are those capable of leading armies. They’re capable of having true conversations, and can even opt out of fighting non-minions, and are capable of wide strategies.

Mordrem Guard subvert this categorization for the same reason sylvari do, though the reason is left unanswered. They are a literal anomaly.

Mordrem, such as the wolves, trolls, husks, thrashers, saurians, hylek, grunts, etc. all appear to – largely – be of the grunt variety. Some do escape that, but they’re the more powerful ones and – like the Megadestroyer – can function on smarter levels.

We never actually see or hear about Mordremoth “bestowing conscious thought” – his domain of mind was literally, to the best of all our knowledge, restricted to telepathy with those that shared his corruption, transferring his consciousness to his corruption on a 1:1 scale (so in theory he could have taken over some mordrem like how Harbinger takes over Collectors in ME2… sadly, Mordremoth never did), and create a copy of his mind in Trahearne (why Trahearne and not some minion far far away? Probably because Trahearne wasn’t truly corrupted).

Rognik.2579:

In fact, to prove the opposite, that elder dragons can have sentient thoughts, I point to Glint. Sure, the Forgotten had to cleanse her with magic first, but I doubt that magic granted her her powers, to write the Flameseeker Prophecies, to befriend the heroes when they arrived in her lair. There is a dragon minion that was sapient, with or without free will.

All Elder Dragons can create minions with sapience. I never said they couldn’t – in fact, I explicitly stated they can and do, and that most of these times they are dragon champions (such as Glint was).

We see many dragon minions that are sapient – most being risen, and most following Gorr’s discoveries: the more powerful they are, the smarter they are, and they are more powerful and smarter because more corrupted magic was put into them.

With every other type of dragon minion, only dragon champions can “create” (via corruption) minions in decent-to-large quantities. Without a dragon champion nearby to create the minions, there cannot be a “minion factory”.

With mordrem, this would mean that since minion factories are the trees, that the trees are dragon champions.

Rognik.2579:

OK, pausing it here for a moment. Maybe this was just my interpretation (and it’s been a while, so forgive me if I occasionally forget these things), but I always assumed these weapons that did dark. chaos, holy and elemental damage was directly tied to each class’s magic speciality: Necros used dark magic, Mesmers chaos, Monks holy, and Elementalists elemental. So I wouldn’t call the schools of magic different.

Elementalists had chaos damage, necromancers had dark, shadow, and unholy.

Further, in GW2 we get comments of both chaos magic (most commonly known about – anything related to Thaumanova talks about chaos magic), light magic and dark magic (the latter two’s most prominent mention being the Prime Hologram fight at the end of S1).

Do note that I didn’t call them schools of magic, but types of magic. I’m not entirely sure yet we can call the schools and domains to be the same thing, but those three magical energies exist and existed before we ever heard about the Elder Dragons having domains.

And though I cannot recall exactly, I do think there was mention in GW1 about chaos, holy, and dark magic in context to the magic used by mesmers, monks, and necromancers but not in reference to their typical damage types.

Rognik.2579:

I feel like Kralkatorrik’s main sphere is probably more Order. Crystal has never really been labeled as an element, but the concept of crystals is these random particles align into a beautiful and precise order, mostly on its own. Now Order is the opposite of Chaos, and I think most people will agree that Chaos is one of the types of magic, so I feel that its opposite must also exist, thus Order. Might even be tied to holy magic somehow, calling back to the monks of old.

There’s nothing relating Kralkatorrik to “order”, first off.

Second off, so far the first domain has always been the Elder Dragon’s ‘title’. Elder Fire Dragon. Elder Death Dragon. Elder Plant/Vegetation Dragon/Jungle Dragon. Elder Crystal Dragon.

In addition, that first domain has always been what the corruption takes the form of – so again, fire, death/decay, ice, plant, and crystal.

Lastly, nothing says that any domain of an ED has to be elemental, or that there can be only one elemental domain. After all, neither shadow nor death are elemental in nature, and those are Zhaitan’s domains.

So Crystal being one of Kralkatorrik’s domain is downright confirmed.

As an aside: the opposite of chaos would really be every other magic, in the sense that the nature of chaos is to break rules and order, and all the other magics have their own individual rules and order to them (fire burns, water is wet, earth is dirty, etc.)

Rognik.2579:

I’ll eat my rare adventurer’kitten if one of the DSD’s spheres isn’t Water. After all, it’s the Deep Sea Dragon.

This naming comes in the same variety as the “Orrian Dragon” (aka Zhaitan) and the “Desert Dragon” (aka Kralkatorrik), just as the other way of referring to the DSD – dragon of the deep sea – matches the nickname “Dragon of the Depths” (aka Primordus). In other words, this manner of naming is for specifying the Elder Dragon’s location, not what their domain is.

Otherwise we’d better start calling “Orr” and “desert” domains of magic.

The best guess to a domain we have for the DSD, given how what we know about the other ED’s domains function, is “tentacles”. Literally, just “tentacles” – because that’s the best we know about the form the DSD’s corruption takes.

Behold, Selbbub, the Elder Tentacle Dragon… Japanese schoolgirls beware.

We always knew that magic came in “different flavors”. Even back in GW1, we had dark, chaos, holy, and elemental (further divided into water, fire, earth, and air/lightning) magic – in addition to the four schools of magic.

Even ley lines having all different types of magic was pretty obvious, TBH, given that it’s all magic that’s flowing together.

The only real revelation – other than explicit mention of what could be observed but was never said – is Taimi’s claim that all death magic was Zhaitan’s domain (and the further extention of such), and that an ED can take a dead ED’s domains/magic.

Elder Dragon domains haven’t been directly associated with magic usable by the races, nor was dragon magic ever considered such (it was always used to describe the corruptive magic Elder Dragons and their minions spread).

You’re right that learning the domains of the other ED is important, though – we know one of them for three EDs (Ice for Jormag, Crystal for Kralkatorrik, Fire for Primordus) and we have strong indication for the second domain for two EDs (Soul/Spirit for Jormag, Air/Sky for Kralkatorrik), but both for the DSD’s are unknown.

If they were sleeper agents, then they’d be like the sylvari seen in Verdant Brink events – normal looking, integrated with the others, but not allied. They’d know their origins, and their purpose. They’d not be going “why am I here?”

Basically, if they were sleeper agents, they’d know that they were, and there wouldn’t be any resisting Mordremoth.

Because Elder Dragons do not provide free will. And you can be sapient without free will (dragon champions are).

Actually we kind of do have an update, Donari, from episode 1:

Mem no Fushia.7604:

Mixing dragon magic can make chaos explosions etc. but its seems to be a case of proportions. So question is proportion of mixed magic perfect in all those destroyers, champions and their spawner. If proportion is wrong especialy in case of champion or elder what will happen, when and what will try to do with that.

What was said, actually, was mixing dragon magic with chaos magic.

This implies that dragon magic is not all of the magic. The notion drax brings up about some professions not matching any Elder Dragon’s known spheres matches with this. There is no Elder Light Dragon, no Elder Chaos Dragon (despite common claims about Kralk), no plant profession, no crystal profession, etc.

draxynnic.3719:

What I think might be going on is that magic is actually divided among at least 12 domains. The dragons each have two, while for the professions it’s messier, and some might be missing altogether in the professions. It’s also possible that there are some domains that none of the dragons have been able to claim… or which may not have been a natural part of the Tyrian system and which is only present now because it was brought to Tyria by the gods and the Forgotten.

This reminds me…

The Bloodstone contains magic that the other Elder Dragons hadn’t yet taken… what if the Seers put in entire domains in it – namely, four of them? (yup, the schools)

That would mean there are not 12 but 16 domains of magic – at least – in the world. And it would then answer the discrepancies in the profession-to-ED magical fields. Even moreso if professions use multiple domains.

Inc.4753:

Can we for a moment entertain the thought that the Pale Tree (and Sylvari by extention) are not corrupted until at least after it has sprouted from its seed?

Here’s the problems with that “entertainment”

1. Sylvari are ‘made to serve the jungle dragon’ – Malyck is a sylvari. Ergo, either both Malyck’s tree and the Pale Tree were corrupted then somehow turned good after planting, or they were corrupted as seeds.
2. There is at no point a chance for mordrem to corrupt the Pale Tree after planting the seed without Ronan and Ventari knowing.
3. There is further at no point a chance to purify the corrupted Pale Tree if it was corrupted after planting the seed. As mentioned above, dragon minions must be purified in some manner – the manner can change, as we prove between Glint and Mawdrey – but in both cases require exotic magics that neither Ventari nor Ronan (nor anyone else seen at the camp in GW1) had to any knowledge or indication.

Inc.4753:

The origin of the seed is, afaik, unknown. It could very well be that it was not created but just collected by Mordremoth (thin argument incoming: why store the seeds for such a long time and risk losing them if you can create new ones yourself?).

Because there has been only one situation of losing dragon minions in the past before: Glint.

Mordremoth may not of known about Glint, or Mordremoth may have though its minions greater than being purified – which makes sense given that Mordremoth has a bit of a god complex (which is reasonable given that it is as powerful as gods, “creates life”, and is nigh immortal).

Inc.4753:

This would mean the Pale Tree and Sylvari never were dragon minions and thus never had to break free of its will and never needed to be changed by hugs and kisses.

Unless there is some dialogue in HoT that I can’t recall, all we have to go on are Wynne’s words:

Wynne: We come from the jungle dragon. We belong to it. We’re meant to serve it.
Caithe: You’re lying!
Wynne: I saw it in my Dream. And if Faolain knew, she wouldn’t keep it a secret.

While the first part seems pretty clear, the second sentence tells us where her information came from. As the Dream ‘is capable of showing not only the past and present, but also possible futures’ (wiki), the combined image of their past with Mordremoth, a future where the Pale Tree would not have been taken by Ronan and the future (now reality) where Sylvari are turned to the Dragon could still explain Wynne’s words.

Mordremoth’s words: “It’s time to come home.” Mordremoth and various mordrem – and non-corrupted sylvari – all throughout HoT acknowledge that sylvari origins are from, ultimately, Mordremoth. There are so many lines it’s near impossible to have not seen them. Not to mention ArenaNet’s own words during promotions of HoT.

Further, the Dream doesn’t show alternate presents, so it wouldn’t show a future where the Pale Tree didn’t get taken by Ronan because Ronan already took the seed over 225 years prior to Wynne’s information from the Dream. Any “potential future” would be taking place after 1302 AE at the earliest. But the future showed is very close to the future that happens – the differences between A Light in the Darkness and the outcome of the Personal Story are very thin, mainly being that Trahearne never gave a speech in that one camp (that we, the player, saw; there was no Dream version of the Pact Commander so that speech could have happened while we were off gallivanting elsewhere) and where we fought the Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan/met King Reza (royal tomb versus Artesian Waters).

The Ministry Guard are explicitly stated by Logan during Accusation (finale of the Dead Sister storyline) to be independent bodyguards hired directly by the ministers.

I would expect Blood and Iron to have their own spies too. Ash Legion wouldn’t (shouldn’t, logically) have a monopoly on them. It’d just be their trade. Just as Ash would have front line fighters and engineers, and all three have casters (even before Flame was exiled).

Mordremoth knew of Tarir and the egg. It’s not far fetched to say the other Elder Dragons know, but have been too far away to launch an assault.

Similarly, the destroyers knew of Gleam in GW1. It’s probable that the Elder Dragons can innately sense each other. Would explain both situations, as well as how Kralkatorrik knew exactly where Glint was (though that could be explained by how Glint was previously Kralkatorrik’s champion).

Sartharina, nothing you said is factual. At all.

Read Edge of Destiny – or just simply look at the story of Glint – and you’d know hands down that Kralkatorrik isn’t an “empty husk”. An empty husk would not hunt down and kill Glint because she broke free of his enslavement.

Or look at the lore of Jormag: he actively takes in willing converts over enslaving others like Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik do.

Mordremoth wasn’t life either, just plant and mind. No where, ever, is he ever referred to as “life”. His domain of mind magic has nothing to do with his intelligence – it’s shown in Heart of Thorns that his domain of mind gave him abilities of mass telepathy and the ability to transfer his mind across his corruption (and with his fast spreading plant magic domain, effectively made him immortal).

Furthermore, it’s a well established piece of lore that a mere stone tablet and mere words cannot purify dragon corruption, which enslave’s one own will. And there was no magic behind Ventari’s Tablet, at all.

And besides that, if it was Ventari and his tablet that freed the Pale Tree… how the hell did Malyck and his tree get free from Mordremoth?

Destroyers are not alive. They are not living creatures. They exist in fire and lava, they are made out of it, but they do not “live”. Not like humans, charr, asura, etc. do.

Not even like the risen did in Orr, with them living their old lives, or like the mordrem, functioning like a semi-functional military.

Inc.4753:

I tend to believe that Mordremoth created his minions as empty vessels and only occupied their minds (fitting his domain ‘Mind’) when he awoke/became active. The Pale Tree and Sylvari were not empty vessels anymore, courtesy of Ronan,Ventari and the fact the Pale Tree was planted way before Mordremoth could control it, and thus were harder to occupy than his freshly created minions. Mordremoth was only able to turn Sylvari that were weaker of mind.
(Compare it to us humans. We tend to keep to the values and believes we got taught as children and usually view them as ‘normal’, shunning those who do not share these values and believes. Changing those views takes a lot of effort and outside influence).

Destroyers are empty vessels. In GW1, they’re described to be literally mindless without the Great Destroyer (aka without a dragon champion) to direct them.

But you cannot bring destroyers over to the side of good.

Nor can you give a mind through mere tender and nurturing – and no magic – to a creature without such.

Nor are dragon minions – any of them – capable of breaking free of their master’s will.

Nor are dragon minions exempt from their master’s will while the Elder Dragon sleeps (see: Drakkar, Svanir, Great Destroyer and all of GW1 destroyers, risen Gigatnicus Lupicus, Scarlet Briar, potentially the Tower of Nightmares and Nightmare Court though that never got confirmed/denied).

Simply put: Mordremoth does not need to be awake to have his minions be brainwashed thralls. No Elder Dragon does. And you cannot simply win over dragon minions with what is effectively the “power of love” – they made this explicitly clear in the Personal Story and Sea of Sorrows. This is one of the core foundations of what dragon minions are, and why they are so horrific.

Mordremoth clearly showed acknowledgement of his potential to lose through his tauntings (if Mordy truly believed he could not lose, then there could be no way to be without him, thus “without mean there is only oblivion” and his similar lines means that he could be exempted from others’ lives, e.g., potentially defeated), and this to the Pact Commander, which is enough to know that Mordremoth could doubt that it would win in fighting another Elder Dragon. There is also the fact that he planted a seed for his regrowth/rebirth/continued existence outside of him losing that fight beforehand, meaning he anticipated the aspect of losing.

They are arrogant, yes, but they’re not so to the point of believing oneself infallible even if they do not believe such.

If Mordremoth was truly so arrogant as to believe himself undefeatable, then he’d never bother with that seed in Trahearne, and would never even consider that there is an existence without it.

maxwelgm.4315:

But what about “corruption” then? In LS3E1 we saw people going crazy over large amounts of bloodstone magic consumption. Wouldn’t dragon corruption merely be another form of this magic sickness, just amplified and/or fine tuned by its bearer?

According to Professor Gorr’s research, dragon corruption is essentially the draining and reimplementing of magic.

Given this information, basically the Elder Dragons drain all magic from their subject of corruption, then puts in varying amounts of their domain’s magic.

Bloodstone sickness, however, is solely the over-excess of magic that has been sitting in the Bloodstone for up to thousands of years.

Very different.

maxwelgm.4315:

No, if we truly are “Aurene’s champions” that must mean we are “corrupted” in a sense, right?

Pretty much my interpretation too, tinfoil hat or no.

The main difference is the levels of corruption – she isn’t altering our physical bodies with her magic. But that doesn’t mean she’s not overriding our free will with her own…

RyuDragnier.9476:

What Rognik said. For example, look at Glint and the Pale Tree. Both went against their masters wishes, something a minion cannot do. Champions are most likely independent agents that have a link to their dragon, though what keeps them linked may be some sort of strong bond between them. Said bond could be anywhere from familial, to friendship, to love.

It’s an explicit statement that Glint was only able to betray Kralkatorrik because the Forgotten used an ancient and powerful ritual to give her free will once again.

The Pale Tree (and Malyck’s tree by extension based on what we know) having their own free will is a strong question. The only way dragon minions – or champions – have free will is through some external magical force giving such. In Mawdrey’s case, it was the series of exotic magic, waters, and soil we fed. The obvious answer is that the cave full of seeds was, at some point, purified like Glint was. By whom, when, or why remains unknown – but it’s the only logical explanation given all the lore facts we know.

Dragon champions have, as Rognik said, some level of autonomy for how to go about their tasks, but ultimately they are all enslaved to their Elder Dragon’s will still, just like their mindless and nigh-mindless dragon minions.

Rognik.2579:

Kryta is still there, and still a human kingdom. Clearly something was done right.

Managing to push the charr back with superior firepower that does not nuke your own nation is not exactly doing something right when you’re also sacrificing thousands of innocent individuals over just a couple years.

That’s one of the lore inconsistencies in this release.

Captain Grumby’s dialogue even implies that it’s part of the Onyx Gate – the inner part we fight Optimus Caliph at even.

Which would mean that the islands shifted. Theoretically plausible, but in 250 years? Not with that great of a distance.

Nothing says or indicates there are seeds inside sylvari, nor does it seem that sylvari being “planted” would result in a tree sprouting.

He didn’t lose his hand. It just became mangled up (not efficient but moveable).

You can even see this mangled up hand when he dresses up as a pirate.