Guild Wars 2

Drakes being “a kind of dragon” is a purely mechanical thing – like how Kudu’s Power Suit in CoE story counts as a bandit, or ettin and jotuns being ogres in GW1.

In GW2, the closest relation to dragons that drakes show is being cousins to wyverns.

Agroman.7190:

Why wouldn’t he? Okay, perhaps he wouldn’t need the priest. But for one to benefit from divine boons in the absence of the actual god is usually seen to require some sort of medium, be it prayer & communication with an avatar or the blessing of a priest. At least that’s how it seemingly worked with the Five/Six in GW1.

There are several cases where individuals receive blessings from a divine being (Six God or Spirits of the Wild in these cases) from statue alone. Kneeling in front of Reaper’s Gate in GW2 for example, or going to the Raven Shrine/Wolf Shrine in EotN.

Agroman.7190:

Yes, but we’re talking about how the human pantheon works, aren’t we? At least that’s what I was referring to.

We are talking about the Six, yes, but you said “As far as we know, being an actual god requires you to be one of the Six.”

And that is simply incorrect. You do not have to be one of the Six to be an actual god.

While true, nothing supports such either. So it’d be an argument of full hypotheses on both sides.

It could be from his warband. We know he doesn’t like them. But he doesn’t seem to really like higher authority in general.

Also, if the charr PC is given leeway because he killed two Elder Dragons, then so would Rytlock who was part of the groups that killed both Elder Dragons.

It’s work with the Orders that we leave the warband for, and we don’t leave the Orders, just the Pact.

It does not come up for Whisper charr, but it may for Vigil charr. Or it may be a huge oversight that didn’t get mentioned.

Unfortunately I don’t think it will get mentioned because now the storyline is so unified, and the way they set up the story journal seems to be no longer able to do story splits like the PS was without massive bugs in replaying the content.

@Tornupto: When we leave the charr story, for some reason (never explained to us), we’re Centurion rank. The only rank higher available to most is Tribune and the situation-based Primus Centurion. So we’re fairly high ranked too. Then again, there aren’t many ranks in charr society…. soldier, legionnaire, centurion, primus centurion, tribune, imperator, Khan-Ur aka primus imperator.

I would take the title to mean that he serves as Menzies’ priest. That he serves Menzies, but worships something else that Menzies hopes to use for his forces.

The main reason I think this is the entire quest behind him – we take “Unholy Texts” to discover what boon Menzies’ forces had gained from the Priests’ meddling and remove it, but if Menzies was the boon-giver, why would he need a priest to boon his personal army?

Rhaegar.1203:

Konig:

Menzies is never said to be a god. Dhuum is a fallen god, he had the same place as Grenth. Same situation as Abaddon and Kormir and Abaddon’s unnamed predecessor.

While Menzies is not directly regarded as a “God”, he is referred by the GW1 Wiki as a “Deity”; coupled with the facts that he is Balth’s half-brother, has armies, priests, and made an alliance with two other Gods, heavily weigh on his godhood.

That deity reference on the wiki is done for navigational and categorization purposes only. There’s no actual lore stating he is a god, demigod, or what have you. And he’s not listed because he’s worshiped or followed, etc. but because he has an alliance with Dhuum and Abaddon, and is Balthazar’s half-brother – in other words, while he himself has no mention of divinity, he is just as important to lore as those who do. Kind of like Malchor.

Having armies is irrelevant – don’t need to be a god to have an army of spirits (see Oracle of the Mists, Shiro Tagachi, Khilbron, and probably some I’m missing). While the Priest of Menzies follows menzies, nothing says it worships Menzies.

The only relation to godhood he has is his attempt to usurp Balthazar.

Agroman.7190:

Menzies is trying to become a god by usurping Balthazar’s power. He is certainly a powerful, ‘divine’ entity, but as we have seen with Kormir, that is no requirement for ascending to godhood. As far as we know, being an actual god requires you to be one of the Six.

Nothing puts him as divine.

And there are gods that exist outside of the Six, if other races are to be believed.

Rhaegar.1203:

Where do you get this “trying to ascend to godhood”? The reason for the war he’s waging on his half-brother has never been stated.

I believe that’s presented as the entire purpose behind assaulting the Fissure of Woe.

Rhaegar.1203:

For years we thought about the gods as The Five. It was only when Nightfall was released that we counted one more among them. Who’s to say there aren’t more (many more) that just have not revealed themselves?

If there were ever more than six at a single time, then this supposed seventh was removed before humanity ever stepped foot on the world of Tyria, because the oldest non-revoked knowledge only tells us six.

And that knowledge does include Menzies.

Arden.7480:

Seers created Bloodstone, ok. But who exactly Seers are?
Magical creatures of course, but something else?

An ancient race of spellcasters, much like the mursaat. We meet the last known Seer in GW1.

Arden.7480:

I played p4 Arah and we have to kill corrupted Gods or something and the last boss is the Bloodstone.
I cannot understand why the Bloodstone is “evil” and why we have to “kill” it.

You kill the last High Priests of the five gods from before the Cataclysm, which have a bloodstone shard each, their corruption corrupting the shard in turn.

It’s been a long time since I played through Arah path (so hard to get folks to go for it), but from what I recall the magic within that larger shard went out of control, twisted by the five pieces we collected with Randall earlier (this is why Randall himself becomes immobilized and changed into a red spectre when the shard was destroyed, with his personality somewhat changed – not really similar to the bloodstone crazed folks in S3 though).

It wasn’t “evil” but was “dangerous” so we had to get rid of it.

The same can really be said for those that make up Gorseval though. They honestly come off as hostile as the White Mantle ghosts in Aurora Remains or Demetra, but more confused, like the non-WM ghosts in Aurora Remains or in Hidden Lake.

To be honest, Justiciar’s Bauer lack of knowledge about the Pact Fleet launching is not indication that E isn’t White Mantle. Consider the following:

1. E only informed the Pact Commander who for over a year had not acted on behalf of the Pact.
2. The White Mantle is splintering the entire time between those who follow Xera (where Bauer falls) and those who follow Caudecus.
3. Even if E and Bauer were on the same side of the above splintering, they could be different chains of command. Bauer was only in charge of the troops at Bloodstone Fen – he may never have gotten the memo that the Pact Commander was directed to the mordrem threat or that the Pact decided to mobilize against Mordremoth (something by all reality the White Mantle should have known since The World Summit called Jennah to deploy troops for the Pact).

The very last fact is the real thing that prevents Bauer’s lack of knowledge from being commonplace among all White Mantle. He didn’t know the Pact Fleet was launching, but Divinity’s Reach certainly did know the Pact was heading in that direction to face Mordremoth. For one reason or another, White Mantle in the Priory and DR did not inform those at Bloodstone Fen.

Mordremoth being killed faster only means that they thought the campaign against him would take as much time (or more) as the one against Zhaitan. The journal denote Zhaitan dying in ~60 Zephyr 1326, but the campaign began in 1325 – which marks at least 60 days of a campaign in Orr, probably more. Mordremoth, however, died in ~45 days – after Mordremoth “slapped [the Pact] out of the sky”.

So it would make sense that they’d expect Mordremoth to take longer to kill. However, that said, I don’t see any indication that any of them expected Mordremoth to die later than it did.

I think the note is referring to the schism in the White Mantle between those who follow Caudecus and those who follow Xera-then-Lazarus and how the White Mantle at the Bloodstone are betraying Caudecus under Justiciar Bauer’s orders (per the journals, he’s the one that was in charge there).

Arden.7480:

“The magic might have been released from the Bloodstone by the gods but they did not make it, it’s a natural part of Tyria”

~GW1 wiki says:
“The bloodstones are five shards of a massive stone created by the Gods of Tyria and sealed with the blood of King Doric.”

So Gods created magic. This is the fact of Tyria’ History.

GW1 lore is full of sometimes-altered human-perspective records of history which are not always accurate. This is one such case. In truth, GW2 is also full of perspectives and subjective truths, making objective truths hard to come by some of the time.

In GW2, it has been revealed and confirmed that the Seers created the Bloodstone. They did so by taking in the natural magic of the world that had not yet been corrupted and putting it into “safekeeping” within the Bloodstone.

The Six released some of that magic and split the stones, but did not create either.

Honestly, with the whole “certain types of souls go to point a, and certain types of souls go to point b” I’d imagine that there could be many places that serve as a birthplace of titans (or quasi-titans like Gorseval) without anyone overseeing rituals like The Fury.

And with how tormented souls have a tendency to remain where they were killed (see the Brisban Wildlands ghosts), if enough souls remain they could form a quasi-titan or a titan as well.

Both of those cases I would consider to be “naturally occurring” because you don’t have someone going through and putting the souls together with the intent of making a titan.

To such an extent, I’d say Gorseval is a “naturally occurring” one too, if he can be classified as a titan, because while the White Mantle were killing people for a long time in place, it was Mordremoth’s death that shook them free of the Bloodstone allowing them to remain in the Spirit Vale. The White Mantle had no intention for them to be free like that. So while the White Mantle created the circumstances for Gorseval to form, they didn’t intend it.

I guess “unintentionally occurring” would be a better classification than “naturally occurring” though.

E only sent us against dragon minions one time, technically.

Usually, E sends Marjory or the Commander to deal with Krytan politics or LA politics.

And the disturbance in Brisban was tied to the Seraph.

My current theory (original was that E was tied to the “allies” Ogden mentioned in Hidden Arcana) that E is The Errant who sent that first mail to players with the Bandit Death Mark. You see, what better way for the White Mantle to get rid of nosey investigators (Marjory) and distract Elder Dragon killers that is a leader of a massive organization than to promise assistance then send them to threats unrelated to the White Mantle (Scarlet, then Mordremoth).

We now know from the journals in the Bloodstone Fen that the White Mantle predicted they’d fight the Pact one day, but were not yet ready for such a battle.

So distract the threats while pretending to be an ally.

pikkunana.7495:

Maybe… Six human gods are Elder Dragons themselfs. What do you think?

As Drax said, this theory has been around so long with so many iterations Anet basically put the outcome of every single one in the game:

The evidence is inconclusive.

But to cater to the OP…

Arden.7480:

The Gods are (I think) in the Mists, but everyone should know that They disappeared from Tyria and Gods don’t sleep under Tyria…….

Priestess Rhie says that the gods are somewhere not in Tyria nor the Mists.

Arden.7480:

Gods disappeared from Tyria, because they gave magic and it was everything they could give us.
We use magic-the gift from Gods- against Dragons.

They left more because of the damage they dealt when they fought one of their own kind (Abaddon) – turning a bountiful sea and verdant coastline into a desert and a deadly wasteland respectively.

The magic might have been released from the Bloodstone by the gods but they did not make it, it’s a natural part of Tyria.

draxynnic.3719:

What’s most likely, given that we know the gods came from elsewhere, is that the gods were the equivalent of the Elder Dragons on whatever world they called home. The Elder Dragons are bound to spheres of magic in Tyria. The gods seem to be similarly bound, but they are alien to Tyria, and their magic is the magic of the place that they came from, not that of Tyria.

This.

Just this.

Rhaegar.1203:

And then you have other Gods, without a correspondece to Elder Dragons. Menzies, Dhuum…?

OK, maybe Dhuum was not part of the original pantheon, but Menzies was Balthazar’s half-brother.

Menzies is never said to be a god. Dhuum is a fallen god, he had the same place as Grenth. Same situation as Abaddon and Kormir and Abaddon’s unnamed predecessor.

pikkunana.7495:

Nooo what happen to spaceship ( T_T)~~
whas it other place

Shiverpeak guild hall is the other place. Frost Gate (the four beacons we lit) is another.

They’re dwarven, through and through. There are two brazier designs that they use, and that’s one of them.

The only oddity is that it has pulsating magic instead of flame. And why they have structures at a temple to Lyssa (what that place is called).

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Riannoc is honored, but he has no grave. No sylvari does, except one: Killeen, and that’s because she was buried by non-sylvari.

Not true. Evart was buried after he was killed by Bercilak, and while I don’t believe we ever heard if Riannoc’s body was technically recovered, the same sort of grave’stone’ is set up at the very spot he died on, where Iowerth goes to cast his ritual in Secrets in the Earth.

They may not have institutionalized it to the point of having graveyards- not yet- but there is precedent for the sylvari to bury their dead, and even to honor their final resting place.

Riannoc’s fate was unknown. His body unknown, his place of death, his sword. It was all unknown, except that he had died – because that fact was felt through the Dream. The entire beginning of chapter 3 for sylvari PS stresses this.

So that “grave marker” – if indeed one – is either meant to be post-PS, or was put by Wayne.

And with Evart, so far that seems to be an isolated case. One highly loved sylvari buried by another who’s borderline suicidal by the death doesn’t make a precedent, IMO.

And I’m not saying there’s no method for honoring fallen sylvari, but rather that there’s no (known) precedent for how sylvari handle their dead (it could just be handled on a case-by-case basis from being left to rot in the open to being burned to being buried, with several different iterations of each and everything inbetween), and given that hundreds would have died by now, the lack of graveyard indicates that burying the dead is an unusual occurrence at least and an uncommon decision to do at most – and the lack of memorial markers is equally an indication of it being an unusual occurrence or uncommon method.

Now, in relation to Trahearne: as anninke said there are other races who’d be honoring that. So I would expect a memorial, even without a body, for Trahearne and the sylvari fallen in that fight.

Though I suppose ANet could wave it off as “with all the turned sylvari, many races are iffy about honoring a dead sylvari, even Trahearne”.

That seems more to be relating not to “the gift of magic” which even more recent sources cite Abaddon as the sole giver but more in line with the events of the scriptures – particularly that of Grenth, and possibly Balthazar, Lyssa, and Dwayna.

I say this largely because all sources since Nightfall’s reveal have been “Abaddon gave the gift of magic” – even after McCoy gave that. If he’s the only one who gave magic then, but the gods gifted magic for over a hundred years prior, then the scriptures are likely prime examples of such.

And those wars were not related, by all indication, to Abaddon’s gift of magic but are probably referring to wars such as in the scriptures of Dwayna and Balthazar.

Mikali.9651:

As you can see, Abaddon didn’t want to rule before they created Blood Stone.

No, there is no such indication of what his intentions were prior to the reduction of magic, beyond gifting magic too freely.

All we’re told is that his descent into evil was a long time coming, and that when his actions were revoked, he went after global domination.

Which is a very kitten huge step to take if you’re just mad that your gift to others was revoked. And turning a nation of humans into demonic entities is a very huge step to take if you’re just trying to save your followers from extinction.

Abaddon has a history of going too far with his actions even before his actions were revoked. And we were told that him turning evil was brewing for a long time. This heavily implies that his reactions were not merely overreactions. Which in turn means that there was premeditation for the events that were his rebellion.

Mikali.9651:

Abaddon made a mistake, and there is no clear answer why the Wisest of them All didn’t stop and think about the problem He made – civilizations around the world used their magic to fight each others which in return endangered the world.

Someone as wise as Abaddon would likely have realized such would happen.

Mikali.9651:

The problem we have is that we don’t really have a timeline. First sentence is something like a teaser on how did he become “the Evil One”; “Abaddon’s fall was not overnight, but the evil that was budding in his heart had many long years to simmer” which is then continued on events which explained how that happened.

Except we do have a timeline.

It began in year 1 BE, and ended in Year 0. Thus, we know that “the evil that was budding in his heart” predates his gift of magic (1 BE) since that was only one year – not years – prior to his fall (Year 0).

Mikali.9651:

“Nothing says Jadoth was the last of the human Margonites.” – I didn’t say he was the last of the human Margonites – he was the last human, only one alive, after the fight between humans and Forgottens! There were NO Margonites at all!
They were created AFTER that war where Jadoth called his God’s name for help!

You’re contradicting yourself because “all [humans] in the war” were the entire human people called Margonites. If all in the war except Jadoth were killed, then all human Margonites except Jadoth were killed. Except this isn’t the case, as they built Thirsty River’s structures after the Exodus and the Crystal Sea turning into a desert.

Furthermore, the Margonites existed prior to the war – the Margonites were a human sea-faring nation long before Abaddon turned them into demons. They existed as far back as 175 BE – that’s 174 years before Jadoth was turned into the first demonic Margonite.

Yes, it’s a bit confusing that ArenaNet shares terminology.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Timeline

Mikali.9651:

“Abaddon himself wasn’t sure if it’s right thing to do what was on His mind” – it’s stated here:
“Desperately, he prayed to Abaddon for deliverance. Abaddon was silent for a long period of time. When he answered, however, the answer was clear. "
- that means He was thinking about what to do. I can accept the fact that there is no clear statement that supports that He was fighting His thoughts about a right thing to do, BUT, it seems it wasn’t so easy choice what He did!
Why do you take time to do something when there is urgency? (man called for help)
It means that you are thinking about it, we can argue about 2 things here:
1. He knew what will mean if He would to create Margonites so He had 2nd thoughts about it
2. He needed time to prepare for such event

If it were so desperate a situation, then “a long time” would have been too long. Also, Abaddon being silence is not necessarily a means of debate or hesitation. It could be that Abaddon did not hear the prayer, did not consider to act on it at first, or was debating how to go about it. However, that said, his scriptures in-game also words it slightly differently, which gives a vastly different meaning:

_On the 51st day of his exodus, a frightful sight manifested before Jadoth’s eyes: the unmistakable shape of Forgotten warships upon the horizon’s shimmering edge. _

And prayed Jadoth, “Abaddon! Lord of the Everlasting Depths, Keeper of Secrets, open mine eyes and bestow upon me the knowledge of the Abyss that I might smite mine enemies and send them to the watery depths!”

An unsettling silence swept across the waves. The twilight sky shattered and stars streaked down upon the Forgotten armada. The seas boiled and ruptured, and gave birth to a maelstrom from which not even light could escape, and transforming the sky above into a midnight void.

Here that silence is not “Abaddon being silent” but rather “Abaddon causing silence” before “his answer was made clear”.

Mikali.9651:

but you are the one who gave unsupported information, and a wrong one. A Very wrong one.
Margonites weren’t created before Forgottens killed every rampaging human except Jadoth in that war. And that is important information.
A really important information! I find this all very interesting, same as questions of OP.
I will do some more research about it all
Keep on discussion – I just wanted to clear out some things my friend. to put us on a right track

There is a vast difference between you disagreeing with my interpretation of a translated piece of lore, and me being unsupported.

There is also a vast difference between you not knowing lore, and me being wrong in the lore.

Prior to the Exodus – and even after – “Margonites” did not refer to demonic entities that were sterile but long-living, but rather referred to a nationality. No different than Krytans, Ascalonians, Americans, Chinese. These people were sea-farers who lived in the Crystal Sea and Clashing Seas, and were first seen in 175 BE.

Jadoth is “the first Margonite” only in that he was the first Margonite turned into a demonic entity by Abaddon.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ghostly_Hero_(PvE)#In_Thirsty_River
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Timeline

Re sylvari funeral customs:

Keep in mind that sylvari bodies deteriorate very quickly, and they do not have graveyards at all – IIRC, the undertaker for DR’s graveyard even comments on how the job is odd (and odder that humans dislike doing it) in ambient dialogue to a passing by sylvari.

Riannoc is honored, but he has no grave. No sylvari does, except one: Killeen, and that’s because she was buried by non-sylvari.

Given that Elder Dragons and dragons are vastly dissimilar, yes. Charr knew of the Elder Dragons but not regular dragons. Meanwhile, humans knew of regular dragons but not Elder Dragons (though the Six knew of both).

The only non-Elder Dragon dragon that the charr may have known about for some time was Glint, but instead of naming her the Ecology merely mentions “some other power”.

Furthermore, we know the line in charr myths refer to the Elder Dragons and not regular dragons because it’s a line about races being wiped out – something attributed only to the Elder Dragon, not regular dragons.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Well I guess it depends on what someone percieves as a god.
For me personally, gods would be: Omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and creator of all creation. Eternal entities of pure perfection. I don’t think the six gods fit that description.

That’s less of what “gods” are and more of what “God” is. And as Drax said, is the crux of the issue.

To put it simply, it is physically impossible to have two gods that are all powerful, all knowing, all present, and the creator of all creation. So any polytheistic religion cannot have that definition for what a god is.

Thank God and gods for words with multiple definitions, eh?

It’s fine for a personal belief in the real world to say “Yeah, there’s only one God because a god must be the creator of all things” and the like. But in a fictional universe, the term of what makes a “god” is ultimately defined by the writer(s), and there are beliefs in the world which would say “you’re too strict on what defines a god”.

A quick google search comes up with:

God
?äd/
noun
noun: God; noun: god; plural noun: gods; plural noun: the gods

1.
(in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
synonyms: the Lord, the Almighty, the Creator, the Maker, the Godhead; More
Allah, Jehovah, Yahweh;
(God) the Father, (God) the Son, the Holy Ghost/Spirit, the Holy Trinity;
the Great Spirit, Gitchi Manitou;
humorousthe Man Upstairs
“a gift from God”
2.
(in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.
“a moon god”
synonyms: deity, goddess, divine being, celestial being, divinity, immortal, avatar
“sacrifices to appease the gods”

In the setting of Guild Wars, “god” – except, potentially, Koda – always falls under the second definition. And when you look at Grenth, Dwayna, Balthazar, Kormir, Lyssa, Melandru, Zintl, Amyali, Mellagan, Koda, and the Great Dwarf – they all fit that definition. Proving, of course, that they are actual beings with a consciousness.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

as Drax said I think the norn got the right idea. The six gods being spirits that embody a specific concept.

Alternatively, humans may think of the Spirits of the Wild as gods (or demigods) – there is at least one human priest who believes the Spirits of the Wild are servants of Melandru.

Point being is that the norn viewing the Six as “Spirits of Action”, from the description I recall given by Jeff Grubb, is more of a cultural compromise – a method to understand other cultures by relating the said other cultures to their own.

Mikali.9651:

How can you write events going like that (number bullets) when it’s not at all like it’s written above?

-snip-

1. The quotes I pulled literally state “He wanted to overthrow the gods and create his own dynasty.” and from the second there was: “Abaddon’s fall was not overnight, but the evil that was budding in his heart had many long years to simmer.” and “Abaddon was becoming increasingly reckless and could endanger the world.” which could hint at many things, but this was from an outside perspective while the former was from an inside perspective.

The first line proves that, at some point, Abaddon decided to rule as a singular god. The second line proves that this decision was not an immediate thought – like you claim it was. The third line shows that the other five gods recognized, before Abaddon rebelled (as the line is also part of their reasoning for why they revoked Abaddon’s gift of magic), that he was acting stranger and stranger to a dangerous degree.

3. It’s outright stated he wanted to rule so how can you argue he didn’t?

It’s like saying “we didn’t have to go into the Dream in order to kill Mordremoth” or “Forgal isn’t dead.”

You say he didn’t want to rule but wanted everyone to be equal… if this was so why did he give unique magic to different groups instead of the same magic to everyone?

“Abaddon bestowed a unique gift of magic on each group of creatures.”

4. Nothing says Jadoth was the last of the human Margonites. And how do you get “Abaddon himself wasn’t sure if it’s right thing to do what was on His mind” when NOTHING says that?

Mikali.9651:

Carefull with how you TLDR things cuz informations are wrong. And they are very important to be true.

Careful how you rebuttle things because the “information” you gave is unsupported. And it is very important to be sourced and cited.

Humans knew of a dragon in Tyria… Glint. They knew of her for over 200 years by the time of the Searing.

They also knew of the dragons in Cantha, which would have been known about for a far longer time.

There were also the dragon skeletons from Orr they knew about, to some degree (as Khilbron rose them from their graves).

Charr, however, did not know of any of these. Their best knowledge of Glint was “the Forgotten pulled back, called to duty by some other power” – per the Ecology. And they had not been to Orr until 1071 AE – and that was short lived.

First off: Heart of Thorns final mission spoilers.

That said… Found something many probably overlooked, and it’s rather interesting to me.

If you take Caithe into confronting Mordremoth in the final mission of Heart of Thorns, you fight a Blighted Avatar of the Pale Tree. During this fight, she summons Firstborn sylvari who do nothing but walk to her and die, empowering her with their death. These Firstborn are all given very generic names, based off of the four most common Mordrem Guard enemies: Firstborn Punisher, Firstborn Stalker, Firstborn Sniper, and Firstborn Tormentor.

Some paying attention may recognize a Firstborn or two – particularly Caithe, Wynne, Faolaine, and Trahearne as they’re the most story relevant Firstborn.

As part of documenting the wiki, I noticed something interesting:

There are twelve “Blighted Firstborn” models. And we only know of ten Firstborns. ArenaNet rather stealthy gave us the appearance of the two missing Firstborn – a female and a male, at that.

• Niamh, Kahedins, and Riannoc are the Firstborn Punishers.
• Caithe, Aife, and Dagonet are the Firstborn Stalkers
• Wynne and an unknown female are the Firstborn Snipers.

And here comes an oddity:

• Faolain, Trahearne, and two unknown males are the Firstborn Tormentors.

Here are the unknown Firstborn models:

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Firstborn_Sniper_(Unknown).jpg – this one is a generic model used by a handful of NPCs, such as the renowned heart vendor, Cesseilia
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Firstborn_Tormentor_(Unknown).jpg – this guy also uses a generic model, used by heavy armored male Wardens throughout the game.
• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Firstborn_Tormentor_(Unknown_alt).jpg – this guy, as best as I know, is actually a unique model. Not used elsewhere.

What’s interesting is that Malomedies is missing. Here’s his appearance for the curious. Unless, of course, ArenaNet not only used two generic models as the last two Firstborn… but rather than using Malomedies’ post-torture model (what we always see in-game), they made up a pre-torture model and used that instead. Giving us the original appearance of Malomedies.

The oddity in that, however, is that Faolain and Caithe don’t use their S2 flashback appearances but their standard 1325 AE story appearances.

Just a fun little thing I noticed and thought to share.

draxynnic.3719:

Actually, I think there was an indication from one of the traders outside the gate in Lion’s Arch pre-Scarlet that the leaders do look down on tengu leaving the Dominion – enough that they won’t necessarily be allowed back in.

The official trading posts and other tasks beyond the Wall that are approved by the Dominion are exceptions, but a tengu just up and leaving might be forfeiting his or her citizenship of the Dominion.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Yuki_Honestcrest

There was no such indication from tengu in LA.

What is a god?

In every polytheistic belief, “long lived powerful beings capable of creating and reshaping life and landscapes that live in an afterlife world” is the very core definition of what a god is, and the Six Gods fit that definition exactly.

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794:

There is literally no evidence to support Lyssa being Tyrian born, and the gods weren’t trying to cover up Abaddon’s existence, he had a full temple in orr, which sank with orr, and thanks to Verash Ossa we know there is proof of him being worshiped in Elona since his image can be found on the Isle of Istan(where Kormir first saw it), Gandara the moon fortress where his mural is still intact, the Ruins of Morah in the Desolation where pieces of his statue remain and in the Eye of the North where his mural is found. Abaddon’s existence was no secret, it just was taboo to talk about.

About Lyssa, the thing I was pointing out was not that there’s evidence of her being a Tyrian born god, but the lack of evidence of her being a non-Tyrian born god.

And yes, it is explicitly stated canon lore that the gods “wiped out all knowledge of Abaddon’s existence”. Of course, this was a shoddy job – as you point out, there is the sunken temple, and a handful of statues and scriptures of him in ancient crypts.

Also, that mural in Gandara is incomplete and looks like it was being newly made. Just play Nightfall, and every time they bring up Abaddon he is “the forgotten god” and that “all knowledge of his existence was ‘erased’” – it’s the entire reason why for all of Prophecies and Factions and most of Nightfall, we call the gods “The Five Gods” rather than “The Six Gods”.

And the only place Abaddon’s mural is found in Eye of the North is in a section not used by any dungeon at all – except in the Halloween Mausoleum which uses an EotN generic dungeon but without closed doors (allowing full access to all of it).

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794:

I’ll be making a thread later and prove there is no chance Malchor is Grenth’s father, be ready to have your mind blown.

Waiting.

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794:

Citation for this claim is needed, otherwise your romanticizing Dwayna as much as i’m selling her short. thing is though, Occam’s Razer like to win when it comes to fights. But if you can prove your claim, i’m fully willing to accept it as the answer.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#The_Six

“The first of the gods to step forth from the mists was Dwayna, goddess of air and life. She placed her pale foot on the stones of Arah, opened the gates, and brought humanity to the world. She chose Tyria and brought with her those who would make this world a paradise. As she had promised, Dwayna led her people to peace.”

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quiz_Terminal

The terminal presents you with a question: “When Dwayna first came to Orr, what did she hope to create?”
→ A paradise.
“Correct answer. Dwayna sought to make the land a paradise for her followers.”

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794:

When i have more data and solid evidence to back up this theory i will make it public, i did say its a sneaking suspicion and as you mentioned Anet can retcon anything it wants at any time. so we will have to wait a bit longer to have any answers. still need citation for this claim otherwise its a non-argument to an admitted theory.

I never said anything about retcon, and if the writers who wrote the story are not lying, they had the intention to make sylvari be dragon minions from the get go.

While there are inconsistencies between sylvari and mordrem, the lore presents them to be to Mordremoth as Glint’s offspring are to Kralkatorrik.

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794:

I fully agree that Dhuum was part of the origonal group of gods to migrate to tyria, but i do not believe Dhuum was working alongside Abaddon and Menzies. His Underworld Army certainly was, but Dhuum was still in forced hybernation during the events of Nightfall. i do not believe he could command an army and conspire with other deities while asleep.

Teeeechnically…

He was imprisoned, but not in hibernation. Nothing says he could not communicate with his minions, in some manner or another. Especially since he gained power from them.

And in Nightfall, it was always “Dhuum’s alliance with Abaddon” and never “Dhuum’s forces’ alliance with Abaddon”. Even Dhuum’s own forces talked as if they could get in contact with Dhuum:

Emissary of Dhuum: “Dhuum has offered his aid to Abaddon’s cause. Do not take his word lightly. You will have the forces that you require.”
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/They_Only_Come_Out_at_Night

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794:

as for the Forgotten, they worshiped the human gods, but did the human gods create them? did they exist in a domain the human gods did before Tyria?

Lore does say they were brought to the world by the Six Gods. It isn’t explicitly retconned currently – just a but confusing since we’re told the Forgotten did stuff that predate the Six’s time on Tyria (which could be explained by the Forgotten being sent out as “scouts” first).

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794:

and what about the exalted and enchanted armor, kinda like the jade armors aren’t they?

It is said that the ancient races shared a lot before the mursaat’s betrayal – the enchanted armor are more akin to the armor that mursaat wear, rather than the jade armors – though the jade armors have an uncanny appearance similarity to depictions of Abaddon.

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794:

evidence points to the forgotten existing long before they’re worship of the human gods.

Actually, evidence does not point that way.

“What you need to know about the Forgotten is this: they once acted as wardens to ancient races in Tyria and shepherded their development from primitive to civilized. They served the beings known as the Five Gods, and they fought wars for them. They had a strong connection to Glint, and they left guardians with her for many centuries. During the last dragon cycle, it was the Forgotten who freed Glint from Kralkatorrik’s corruption and control. In gratitude, she hid them from the Elder Dragons until they returned to sleep. If they remain in Tyria, they are elusive at best, and many believe they have gone back to the Mists from which they came—perhaps never to return.”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Forgotten_Not_Forgotten

Written by the same individual who says that the ritual that freed Glint was pre-Six Gods. This matches everything we knew about the Forgotten from Prophecies and Nightfall, which claims that they served the Six Gods for countless generations, over several thousand years.

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794:

and while they’re magic wasn’t as strong as the seers, it was still enough to garner the gods attention. remember that the only 2 known groups that are powerful enough to manipulate the bloodstone are the human gods and the seers, the mursaat can only damage them or need the keystone.

I wouldn’t say that the Forgotten’s magic “garnered the gods attention” – evidence says the Forgotten use divine magic… which is used by the Six Gods. Thus, in turn, it implies that the Forgotten’s magic comes from the same source as the Six Gods’ but not as powerful as the Six’s.

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794:

I still believe Abaddon knew of the dragons before the other gods did and was trying to build a real army to kill them until factual evidence can prove me wrong.

Why “before”? The Six Gods knew about the Elder Dragons for a very long time, perhaps since they arrived on Tyria.

And factual evidence does prove you wrong. At least for Abaddon’s primary purpose.

As quoted earlier in this thread, pre-NF release information states, explicitly, that Abaddon’s rebellion at the beginning – and creation of the Margonites – is tied to wanting to rule Tyria and saving the Margonites (human nation) from extinction from the Forgotten who reacted to said Margonites defacing some statues of the Six sans Abaddon.

In Nightfall, it’s stated and heavily implied all he wanted was freedom and revenge.

Naturally in Nightfall there’d be no mention of Elder Dragons, as they didn’t exist in the lore yet, but we’re given a reason already. Unless ArenaNet goes and does some retroactive continuity changes, that is the reason – conquering, revenge, and freedom.

I… think you’ve got your cordinal directions mixed up.

“down into the lands EAST of the Shiverpeak Mountains” – that is, on the in-game GW2 map, Blood Legion Homelands and Ascalon.

Kryta is WEST of the Shiverpeak Mountains, as are Orr. Furthermore, their assaults on Kryta and Orr came about in 1070/1071 AE, and this passage predates 100 BE (when humans arrived in Ascalon).

The passage does not relate to Kryta or Orr at all. So it does not “only prove” that.

And yes, I was confirming your speculation that they come from east of the Blazeridge Mountains – as I said in my first sentence of the post.

As for them “not knowing of the dragons” – that’s effectively debunked by the line I provided, where their ancient myths explicitly mention dragons. And all our knowledge on the Elder Dragons talk about them being a threat to the whole world and how two of six of the Elder Dragons are not in Central Tyria.

In addition to what Aaron quoted, I recall an interview stating that the Inquest may chose to “watch only” individuals who have incriminating evidence against the Inquest – partially in fear that the individual may get that evidence out in a “in case I die, publicize this” kind of plan.

That is something I considered (and brought up), but it makes it weird that the mother would be oblivious to it – and if she wasn’t, wouldn’t she try to stop her daughter?

Either the whole “Eye detects the Chosen” thing was a complete fabrication by the White Mantle and/or mursaat (not unlikely given that the Chosen are only relevant to the Flameseeker Prophecies so thousands of people could not have been the Chosen to open the Door of Komalie), or it had something to do with the PCs washing themselves in the Fountain of Truth which is said to “cleanse people of their sins” so that the Eye could follow them (the fountain could do something that “stealths Chosenness” from the Eye to allow the Eye to follow it – this way, the White Mantle see no need to kill their own).

A third possibility is that the Eye is said to detect potential powers, which implies a case of “not using it, but could” – and our characters were using their power.

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794:

In the beginning we know that the 6 gods that came to Tyria where(in no particular order); Dwayna, Balthazar, Melandru, Lyssa, Dhuum and Abaddon.

While Grenth is called the “first Tyrian-born god”, Lyssa, Dhuum, and Abaddon are never actually said to have come from another world like the others. More importantly, Lyssa’s origins are explicitly stated as having been lost, implying a cover up much like with Abaddon’s fall – it’s possible that Lyssa is the true “first Tyrian-born god” and the other gods covered it up; would be plausible given that they had a god of secrets to help, and there was more time before leaving unlike when they were covering up Abaddon’s existence.

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794:

Grenth was a demigod born of Dwayna and an Orrian Sculptor(clearly not Melchor)

As Aaron mentioned, it’s actually highly likely it was Malchor who was Grenth’s father – Anet even retconned the description of DR’s statue of Grenth from quoting Malchor to quoting Desmina. An odd choice.

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794:

Every god has a reason why they sought the humans and my theories are as fallows.

• Dwayna, goddess of light, life and love. maybe she just wanted to be a wife and a mom, she accomplished that.

Eh, if that was so why would she leave Malchor/the sculptor?

Also, Lyssa is the god attributed with love, not Dwayna.

But as Aaron says, sounds like you’re selling Dwayna short. This also contradicts known lore, where we are outright told that Dwayna was seeking a paradise for all when looking at Tyria. That is far more than “I want to be a wife and mother” – especially when she then abandoned her “husband” (aka boyfling) and forced her son to prove his worth before allowing him to be a god like her.

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794:

• Melandru, Goddess of nature. i have reason to believe that Tyria is Melandru’s domain(like the Fissure of Woe is to Balth) and that the Sylvari are actually new servants of hers, even though it seems lore states they are Mordremoth, i don’t buy it. not yet anyway.

Tyria is a mortal world, though – and a full world at that. The Fissure of Woe (aka Realm of War) is an afterlife, implied to be part of The Rift, and is not a full world.

And I’d be curious on that theory on the sylvari… Since as you said, it contradicts canon lore. Which means it most likely isn’t so.

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794:

• Lyssa, Twins of beauty and chaos. Honestly, my best guess is bound to the random magic of the bloodstones right now, actual theory on this one.

AFAIK, there’s no real relation between Lyssa and chaos, beyond a single phrase used and mesmers having Lyssa as their patron goddess.

And please elaborate on that bloodstone thing… Because currently it makes no sense, as the Bloodstones’ magic isn’t actually random at all (it’s just that an excess of any magic leads to chaotic results – see the anomalies across the world).

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794:

• Dhuum, God of death. He does not tolerate spirits or resurrection, at all. he doisn’t like that tyrian races can do that.
• Grenth, God of the Afterlife. he’s half human, his dad was reaped by Dhuum. nuf said.

Grenth isn’t the god of the afterlife any more than any other god, technically. Every god has their own afterlife as far as we know, and we know that Dwayna and Balthazar both take human souls (and it is implied Lyssa, Melandru, and Kormir/Abaddon do/did too). Grenth is just god of death.

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794:

Abaddon must have had info on the forgotten, and in turn on Glint.

The Forgotten were the servants of the Six Gods. All six would have had info on the Forgotten – their entire race worshiped and served them.

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794:

Abaddon knew about the elder dragons, he knew what the older races predicted and in that fear he had Vaseer Kilbron sink Orr, Where Zhaitan and the gods where, he gave the charr the Searing Cauldron hoping they would kill Kralkatorrik while they fought in Ascalon, and later he used the Undead Lich to open the Door of Komallie(a portal to the Foundry of Failed Creations where his Titans where), used his Torment demons to corrupt Shiro Tagachi and spread affliction and Corrupted Varesh Ossa to open another portal to his domain.

We have VERY heavy indication that the Cataclysm, Searing, and actions of Prophecies, Factions, and Nightfall were all done for a single purpose: revenge against the Five and to break free (okay, so two purposes).

How does opening the Door of Komalie, causing the Affliction (something Shiro didn’t even intend to do, but ended up using since he caused it), and having Varesh Ossa open portals to the Realm of Torment at all assist in fighting the Elder Dragons?

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794:

Abaddon knew the elder dragons would wake soon and was trying to mass his armies to kill them for fear of being eaten by them. the real question should be did Kormir inherit Abaddon’s secrets? and if she did, what did he know that we don’t?

Technically, all gods knew of the Elder Dragons. This is a confirmed fact, told to us in Season 2.

Nothing really indicates that the gods would be prey to the Elder Dragons (in fact, divine fire – born of divine magic which the gods use – made mordrem flee) and his armies were for conquering Tyria according to known lore.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I know this is nitpicking, but we’ve oddly never seen Dhuum counted among the Six, even in the earliest documents. It’s a very long shot, but if we’re talking about what we know, it is possible he was a seperate deal entirely, perhaps even native to Tyria or some completely separate world, until Grenth overthrew him.

I’d chalk that up more to how Dhuum is never talked about in context to the other gods beyond Grenth, where it is always “Grenth’s predecessor”.

The notion of Dhuum being Grenth’s predecessor actually, to me, hints that Dhuum was part of the Six – after all, Grenth “took Dhuum’s place” is a description used, IIRC.

Also, Dhuum worked alongside Abaddon and Menzies, also tied directly to the Six. Would be weird for someone unrelated to work with those two.

Actually, it’s explicitly stated that they originate from east of the Blazeridge Mountains. According to The Ecology of the Charr after being united by the Khan-Ur, they expanded their territory north, then west until hitting the Shiverpeak Mountains, then south (into the now called Ascalon). The quote in question:

No longer clamoring over the same territories, the unified Charr spread throughout the northern reaches of their homeland, and down into the lands east of the Shiverpeak Mountains. The Charr subjugated or destroyed any and all who dared defy them within their territories; they were masters of all they surveyed.

As for the Elder Dragons being elsewhere on the world, we know that Jormag and the DSD awoke well outside of Central Tyria, and there’s a distinct lack of knowledge on Mordremoth and Zhaitan from the previous dragonrise (only where they fell asleep and the final minions they left behind are known from their activities back then). The jotun mythologies call them world swallowers, so it would make sense for them to have ravaged the whole world at various points in the past, and just ended up in Central Tyria (mostly) at the end of the last waking period.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Apprentice_Kasandra's_Diary

The artifacts we liberated from the Durmand Priory were, in fact, the key required to draw the magic out of the bloodstone shards. The Seers must have anticipated our need to tap the magic within the bloodstone, and this device may be what they used to do so.

We know that the Six Gods released magic from the Bloodstone and later strengthened it by drawing magic from Zhaitan; we know the Seers put magic into the bloodstone and created devices (I presume what we confiscate from the White Mantle Clerics in the story – the same device that allows us to safely contain the unstable magic flying all over Bloodstone Fen, or tap into the leaking Bloodstone Stalagmites) to tap magic from the bloodstones.

So yes, we do have reference claiming the Seers and the gods could control magic influx.

Also, nothing says the main source of Bloodstone magic is souls. That’s what the White Mantle put into it – largely due to them sacrificing souls to put into soul batteries during GW1, to keep the Door of Komalie closed – but the Bloodstone is noted to have grown exponentially with each Elder Dragon death, and we see a ley line flowing to/from it, indicating that natural ley energy magic is more likely to be a main source (plus the whole “drew magic from Zhaitan to strengthen the Bloodstones”).

Having ancient stories of the G-Lupe indicates knowledge of them. More importantly: having ancient stories of the Elder Dragons indicates knowledge of them.

The most common way for primitive races to have knowledge of something is to come across it personally – the G-Lupe can be explained by them finding giant kitten bones. So why do the charr have ancient knowledge of the dragons?

Most likely answer would be that they had come across Elder Dragons personally in the ancient past – either just dragon champions or something else.

That’s where I was getting what I said, Rhaegar.

Icdan Sevaen.4628:

@ Konig, I’m quite curious what that line is.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Myths_and_Legends_of_Ancient_Ascalon

This tells ancient charr legends about Ascalon. It was a mythology book compiled by Cita Commandheart. Once, fearsome beasts walked the land. These giants ripped smaller animals apart with their sharp teeth and kicked rocks miles away. The creatures had claws longer than charr arms that they used to spear and cook their prey. These creatures died because they did not work in warbands. When dragons attacked, they fought and died alone. The charr ruled Ascalon differently. We made warbands and legions. We made armies. Then the humans arrived and pushed us from our land. We retaliated and took it back.

Presumably the line refers to Giganticus Lupicus, but the dragons no doubt refers to Elder Dragons.

Whether this is commentary of myths or the myth itself is hard to tell, but it sounds like the charr had ancient stories of the Elder Dragons, like norn did.

I’m expecting a mastery for the new gliding skills, as Diovid said.

@Maxwelgm: Well about the whole going mad thing – those going mad are those directly exposed to a huge quantity of Bloodstone magic. Those crazed like drug addicts are those who were in that huge explosion, which Abaddon did not create when spreading magic; the only others crazed by it are the souls that were trapped within the Bloodstone.

And Bloodstones are only nukes if they are made unstable and explode – which, again, is not something Abaddon did. Making the bloodstone unstable was a multi-year process by the White Mantle (a full three years). While the details of Abaddon’s gifting magic is largely unknown, unless he was the one who split into five pieces by exploding it, he didn’t do anything like that.

Though this does bring in the question of how the Six Gods could safely divide the Bloodstone into five pieces when cracking the shell made the Bloodstone unable to contain magic so well. I guess that’s why they had to strengthen it with magic from Zhaitan.

@RyuDragnier: We already knew that the Elder Dragons inadvertedly balanced magic, but did so from one extreme to the other. According to Hidden Arcana in Season 2, too little magic is just as deadly to the world as too much.

I don’t think Abaddon’s gift of magic made the world equivalent to what’s going on with Bloodstone Fen and the ley line events, as that would no doubt have woken the Elder Dragons, but if Thrulnn the Lost’s tales of the last dragonrise is right, the world was “chaotic” when the Elder Dragons last woke – before the Bloodstone was made.

About Abaddon speeding up the process – the thing is that the Durmand Priory claims that the Elder Dragons last woke the same ~10,000 years they always have. Which, though weird, means that the act of making the Bloodstone and then the act of releasing magic from it negated each other. Unless, of course, the Priory is wrong with this (there are several hints to such as well, hinting that the last ED rise was not in ~10,000 BE but in ~3,000 BE).

Given that travel through the Crystal Desert is considered foolhardy, and the Desolation is literally a deadly wasteland that got flooded, travel by sea is the primary and only reliable method of travel – except via asura gate, which would be even more circumventing Kralkatorrik.

It’s a larger case of “if you can brave the Desolation” given that the Desolation – until Joko dammed it – was literally lethal to travelers. The only way we could traverse it in GW1 was because Joko told us how: to tame the junundu wurms. Your average person would be unable to do this, as well as not knowing to do so. After all, prior to Nightfall the only individual to tame the wurms was Joko himself (so he claims).

And after Joko dammed it, it is literally traveling through the heart of a tyrant’s domain.

The only way to reach Elona by land is via north of Vabbi – going well east of Ascalon and then south. But we don’t know what lies that way, truth be told.

Kralkatorrik is nowhere near Elona, technically. Last we saw him was northern Crystal Desert. A whole desert and desolation away from Elona.

Arah explorable doesn’t talk about when any individual god arrived, but it does mention that Glint’s individuality from Kralkatorrik was pre-Six Gods on Tyria, and that the Six Gods did not know they were pulling magic from Zhaitan when they strengthened the Bloodstone.

The arrival of gods comes from the Orrian History Scrolls in Malchor’s Leap, which only specifies Dwayna, Balthazar, and Melandru (in that order of arrival).

It also stats Lyssa’s origins are lost, which is rather suspect and sounds similar to the cover up of Abaddon’s existence, hinting that Lyssa may have had a precursor the knowledge of which was wiped out (and done better than knowledge of Abaddon).

Ronin.7381:

Taimi is already investigating the chak’s organs and what did we used to get infused in GW1? Guts. Who did we give them to? Seers. Checkmate.

We already have infusion. In the form of a further developed form of the Spectral Infusion mass temporary AoE buff Zinn developed.

That’s what the new mastery track is – learning how to use that further-modified device from GW1.

maxwelgm.4315:

Has the matter of ascension not been dealt with already with LW3E1? I kind of assumed the strong magic that Jade Armors pulled against us was spectral agony, and Taimi’s counter magic is what allow us to pull through it. This is not a case of cheap solution either: Zinn already gave us something like that during War in Kryta for GW1, a temporary buff equivalent to both infusion and true sight: asuras have, centuries ago, actually skipped the ascension process concerning the Mursaat.

Infusion and Ascension are different things.

Infusion allows us to survive Spectral Agony, and we do have this settled via a nod to GW1. Zinn’s buff didn’t give a temporary Gift of True Sight – just infusion.

Ascension – or the Gift of True Sight – allowed us to see the mursaat while they were invisible. This has not been settled, hence how Lazarus appeared from thin air and disappeared into thin air – that was him appearing from his invisibility and disappearing into it. Unless he just teleported… But that’s less menacing.

Ronin.7381:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nothing says Primordus is in the Maguuma Jungle.

When I say Maguumas, I mean both the jungle and the wastes.

My point remains. Nothing says he is in that area.

Last we heard, he was clearing tracks of land all over Tyria – which is why we see destroyers as far west as Brisban Wildlands and as far east as eastern Ascalon (Edge of Destiny).

He slept underneath the border between Frostgorge and Fireheart Rise at the Central Transfer Chamber, but this was hundreds of miles underground. And he’s been moving around since.

Ranael.6423:

Since the last 200 years he may have moved (like Kralkatorik) or not (like Zhaitan or Mordremoth).

We were outright told years ago he’s been moving about and that is why we see destroyers all over the map.

Technically speaking he could be very far away from continental Tyria – though Taimi picking him up tells me he’s not.

Ranael.6423:

But somehow, I think Primordus, while being a threat won’t be the next target. First because Tyria can not afford a new dragon fight with such big loss within the Pact and the Sylvari.

Primordus may not give us the option. If he’s become active, he may strike first forcing us to react even if we don’t have an army to meet him.

But then again, when the Great Destroyer rose, we didn’t have an army of thousands and airships – we had hundreds at best between dwarves, asura, human, and four norn.

Finding a solution to the magic problem may serve as a concurrent plot – after all, just like Mordremoth and the egg, we don’t need to be focusing on only one thing. I think trying to focus on one thing was the biggest downfall of HoT.

Jaken.6801:

It also isn’t confirmed that Primordus is Fire. He could be just heat in general, termodynamic energy and fire is just how is percieved.

Nevertheless, the elements were never said to play a role in how the dragons interact with each other, or that they even have any territorial fights.

Well, he is called the Elder Fire Dragon (as well as the Elder Rock Dragon) much like how Jormag is called the Elder Ice Dragon, Zhaitan the Elder Death Dragon.

They are not considered an ancient race.

The race’s age – like other non-human/sylvari/Forgotten races on Tyria – is unknown.

There is a line that implies that they were a primitive race during the time the Giganticus Lupicus were around, but this is charr mythology speaking so it isn’t factual.

Abaddon wasn’t the oldest of the Six, he was even once a mortal (having replaced a god like Kormir and Grenth did), and while Dhuum was part of the pantheon we don’t know if he was an original god or just ascended into godhood like Abaddon, Grenth, or Kormir did (same can be said for all of the Six, technically, but only Dwayna and Melandru are lacking hints that they were original gods iirc).

And the Six Gods never confronted the Elder Dragons or were around when the Elder Dragons were last awake – the Six arrived on Tyria well after the Elder Dragons went to sleep according to Arah explorable lore. Or at the very least, they arrived near the end of the last Dragonrise, so they were not awake for very long if they still were (and even then, Dwayna, Melandru, and Balthazar were the first on the world and thus would know the most).

Nothing says Primordus is in the Maguuma Jungle.

Wouldn’t need to be “rogue” at all, given that tengu are 100% allowed to go out on their own into the world. It’s that the tengu government has decided not to help out – they don’t ban their people from leaving.

In the personal story we meet 3 or so tengu who left the Dominion in order to help fight the Elder Dragons, and any one of them can function as our mentor figure. And we meet almost thrice as many who work as traders.

Nightbringer Tenchi.5794:

In Guild Wars 2, the only real possible indications of Manzies are the Shadow Behemoth and Shadow Fiends(which players will largely argue are Dhuum’s minnions) and the pallet swap torch skinn “Fate of Manzies”(shameless orange “Razah’s Nightmare”.)

Players would largely argue the Shadow Behemoth is Dhuum’s minion because they come from the Underworld (and Menzies has no ties there) and we have an item that basically tells us that, it is indeed related to Dhuum

Also, Razah’s Nightmare came second so that is the shameless reskin of The Fate of Menzies. :P

We actually do know what the cannons were firing. It was basically a combination of Gorr’s research (used in the Whispers PS if you recruit him), the cannon testing at Tequatl (particularly the laser), and Kudu’s research from Crucible of Eternity.

There was small dialogue about it so it’s hard to catch and I’m not sure the wiki has those lines up tbh (or if they even still exist with all the PS dialogue redoing they did).

As for gods being beings of magic and thus want to stay away from Elder Dragons that consume magic… I’m not so sure. Gods are beings of magic, yes, but they are beings of divine magic. And as seen at the end of Season 2… divine fire is very useful in fighting mordrem. Further, Forgotten magic – the magic of the Six Gods’ most faithful followers – cannot be consumed by Elder Dragons (see Arah Forgotten path and Exalted), and the Foefire which originates from the Gods’ time on Tyria also seems to be anti-ED (the Foefire ghosts were not corrupted by Kralkatorrik and its Dragonbrand; ghostfire from the Foefire ghosts burn through risen and sylvari faster than anything else).

It very well may be that the Six Gods could singlehandedly slam the Elder Dragons down with ease if their magic truly is immune to the Elder Dragons – and if the purification the Forgotten had originates from them, it would even mean that the Six Gods could turn the Elder Dragons’ minions against them.

Sylvari technically were not made to be his minions. What’s meant in Wynne’s line is that they come from his sphere of power – that they are fundamentally dragon minions.

Mordrem, risen, destroyer, icebrood, and branded – they are all fundamentally the same. The different is largely “what they were made from” and “what element the corruption takes form as”.

Sylvari are no different than those “corrupted mordrem you see in SW” (as almost all mordrem are born from Blighting Trees – just as sylvari are born from Pale Trees). The difference is that the sylvari are “purified” due to their trees being such by still unknown means.

Basically: sylvari are to mordrem as Glint’s offsprings are to branded.

The capes weren’t part of the old armor, actually (there were even designs under the capes that many hadn’t known about until WiK featured some without the capes!).

I would love to see those return, even if as just oufits like the monk outfit.