Personally, I’m willing to trust Lazarus, at least for now. The mursaat back in Kryta weren’t all bad until we realized they were sacrificing humans to power up the bloodstones and keep the Door of Komalie closed.
“They weren’t bad until we realize they’ve been doing bad things for years before we caught them in the act” is not a very… intelligent claim.
The White Mantle were doing the Test of the Chosen since 1067 AE (five years by times of Prophecies), though maybe not the sacrificing part. But they certainly were since 1070 AE (thus two years), and their first act in Kryta was to wipe out dozens of their own followers simply because they saw the mursaat.
How can that “not be bad”?
Theoretically plausible. Question would be why would there be two bloodstones feeding that relatively new volcano (it didn’t exist in GW1).
They are actual plants, but not fruits. Their “bones” are wood, hair leaves, and have pollen falling off of them.
This puts them more akin to flowers than fruits.
Though the pods they come out of are compared to fruits, so sylvari are more like grown seeds.
As for geminating… none, best we know. That’s not how dragon minions works. No dragon minion is capable of reproduction beyond making more dragon minions out of changing other material (usually people, but also pre-existing plantlife, landscape, even air and water). Mordremoth does seem a bit more unique in this but we never go into detail about how the Blighting Tree works… probably because it’s such a special snowflake of dragon corruption.
The mursaat do have their own written language, which was actually used in some places in Kryta during GW1. It’s possible that the Pact Commander could have learned up on the language or something, especially if they were Priory or Whispers.
Ultimately I’d consider knowing how to read those texts being a game mechanic thing rather than a lore thing. It may be that we’re scribbling them down, turning them into the asura researcher, who gives us a translated version in terms of lore, but for mechanic ease, we just read it right there.
That’s my thought as well. How did he even know about the egg in the first place? Or that it would hatch, or that we’d need help? What if we didn’t need help – would he have just showed up and gone “Uh… Commander, I know this is awkward with me being in this super secret, highly defended place of vast importance but I want you to trust me and let me help you fight the Elder Dragons.”
Plus there are some holes in his explanation for wanting to help.
It’s either betrayal, one hell of a coincidence, or bad writing trying to be epic writing (and yeah, the scene was epic, but once you get past the “fighting alongside a mursaat” bit, it becomes “wait… why?”)
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
(silly character limit)
Now, if Taimi’s theory is correct (which it usually is, but may need to be revised when we get new information), the blighting trees could only exist because of Zhaitan’s death. Meaning that if Zhaitan hadn’t been killed, the races that weren’t sylvari might have been safe from most of Mordremoth’s attempts to corrupt them.
But, see, if this was true… sylvari wouldn’t exist either. Because the Pale Tree(s) do the same, roughly, method that Blighting Trees do.
Now here is a theory I just came up with after cancelling a rebuttal: thanks to Mordremoth’s death, it might be possible for Jormag and Kralkatorrik to corrupt sylvari. Maybe as we enter the Northern Shiverpeaks or the Crystal Desert, we’ll see Icebood Sylvari or Branded Sylvari from the dragons having new magics in them. So in a weird way, Mordremoth was the one protecting them from previous corruption. The Dream merely prevented them from being mindless mordrem drones.
This counteracts what you were arguing earlier, you know. :P
The Dream is not part of Mordremoth’s domain – as not all mordrem or sylvari (prime example: Malyck) have ties to it, and some non-mordrem/sylvari have ties to it (prime example: White Stag). With that being the protection that Mordremoth can circumvent (as stated outright by ArenaNet), that means the others cannot – since it wasn’t part of Mordremoth’s power, even absorbing his domains of plant and mind would not give them the ability to corrupt sylvari without instantly killing them.
That, however, doesn’t stop them from potentially corrupting Malyck and his brethren, or remaining mordrem (does for remaining Mordrem Guard, however).
The Pale Tree was protecting sylvari from Mordremoth, but I don’t think it’s a complete protection. Do you want to know why Mordremoth could corrupt sylvari so easily? He kitten created them! So naturally, he has a back door.
By that argument, he should have been able to corrupt the Pale Tree, and Kralkatorrik should have been able to corrupt Glint, Gleam, and Aurene with ease.
Oddly, we only ever see Mordremoth “corrupting” (and I use that term loosely for reasons I’ll get into shortly) only sylvari tied to the Dream. Unfortunately, they cut Malyck out, so we have no clue how sylvari not tied to the Dream reacted.
The Dream, however, seems to strengthen the willpower so that they could choose to resist. I may not have the lore memorized like you seem to have, Konig, but I believe that the Nightmare Court hasn’t turned away from the Dream but instead follow the Nightmare. This allows Nightmare Courtiers the same benefit to fight Mordremoth, even if they feel Ventari’s Tablet is too restricting. It was mostly the Soundless that fell to Mordremoth’s control,
This… is actually exactly what I was saying. The Dream is what provided protection, and without the protection they fall to dragon corruption, or in Mordy’s case, control.
Unfortunately, we never see a Soundless – or more useful for evidence, Malyck and those of his tree (which seems to be Dreamless) – encountering a dragon minion, and wouldn’t have seen such with a non-mordrem even if Malyck did show up in HoT.
Got a little distracted there, but I’ll get back to my point. In creating Mordrem, only sylvari were “corrupted”. The other four races could not be converted directly, at least from what I saw. They had to be tied to the blighted trees, or infected with the moss.
That’s because that’s how Mordremoth prefers to corrupt. Every Elder Dragon has their own “preference” for corrupting – Zhaitan prefers corrupting corpses; Jormag prefers willing converts; Primordus prefers corrupting land; Kralkatorrik prefers just breathing on folks and being done with it; Mordremoth prefers using living beings as templates to create endless clone armies.
And about the sylvari corruption, sylvari were not corrupted in the traditional “dragon corruption” sense. Traditional dragon corruption results in an overwritten will and the body physically altered into a different composition (such as turning flesh to ice or decaying it instantly). Mordrem Guard, however, show that they are capable of returning to their previous state given silence from Mordremoth and no one pushing them back to that mentality. Mordremoth’s “corruption” is literally described as Mordremoth whispering into sylvari heads to convince them to do what he wants them to do. Those who do not turn are those who recognize the whispers as not being their own thoughts but Mordremoth’s – or in the kitten Occam’s case, not even realizing that the strange voice and thoughts are at all distracting or worth given a thought, apparently.
Even the seemingly drastic appearance change has been explained years before HoT: sylvari undergoing a traumatic experience (such as, say, being convinced to become a generic thrall to an Elder Dragon) results in their appearance change. We saw this with both Canach and Caithe. What we see with the Mordrem Guard is just a lot more drastic.
This is further supported by the “Corrupted Sylvari” in Verdant Brink – despite name and being obvious Mordrem Guard, they look like regular sylvari. Same with Aerin and Scarlet Briar – no physical change to them, meaning it’s not traditional dragon corruption where physical change is an outright blatant side-effect.
Those are golden, like seen at Slothasor in raids, or the three golden strands at the various coalescence events, or above/blow the center altar in the Cavern of Unseen Lights. Unfortunately you cannot glide along golden ley lines.
It looks red because of the red sky. But if you go up there you can get a better look.
As for directions, one roughly comes from Abaddon’s Mouth (aka the bloodstone, interestingly) and the other is coming from Istan/along the Elonian shore (but not hitting it) if they go straight from last visibility.
Ever acts like the story of Guild wars is written fact.
Though I don’t care either way as far as dwarves go… It always bothers me when people act like lore can’t be changed…For all we know, there was a band of dwarves who, instead of turning to stone, decided to sail into unknown lands and start new… Now that the threat of prim has gotten even greater, they hear their calling and join the fight… They wouldn’t be stone either. Just normal dwarves.
It actually is a written fact that every single dwarf were supernaturally compelled to undergo the Rite of the Great Dwarf.
In other words, they didn’t have a choice. Some resisted the call at first, but every single one had succumbed to it within 50 years of the first casting of the Rite.
It’s a written lore fact that there are no normal dwarves left.
And the stone dwarves left at this point are very, very rare – and so far, in solely isolated places.
How are people only seeing this now?
She’s already gave us her power, communicated her thoughts to us, and we were called the egg’s chosen by the Exalted back in HoT.
Ruka the Wanderer: The hatchling chose well. You’ll be a fine champion for it.
Ruka the Wanderer: Congratulations! I knew you could do it. Tarir has accepted the egg, and you as its champion.
We’ve been corrupted by Aurene since Prized Possessions, if not sooner.
It’s just not taking a physical affect because Aurene’s not evil… yet.
As far as we’re aware, Jormag has been moving, just not over great distances but not merely sitting in the same 1,000 feet radius like Zhaitan was.
And that’s what we were told was the situation for Primordus too, that he’s moving, not moved.
And honestly, yes, it is nitpicking, given that the Elder Dragons act in pulses of activity, you’d not expect them to be moving 24/7. Else they’d have circled over the globe several times over within a single year. So obviously even the most active ones will move, sit for a decade or more, move again, sit around again. Likely just going from magical hotspot to magical hotspot.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
We actually do know that Jormag has physically moved. He awoke far north of where the norn lived in GW1, close to the arctic sea where the kodan lived, and the norn skaalds explicitly state that it was flying over the norn as they retreated south before having to retreat back north itself because of Owl.
Elder Dragons corrupt more than bodies. They corrupt landscape, water, and the very air. That’s made pointblank obvious in the personal story and Orr, or in the Dragonbrand.
Primordus corrupts rock and lava to create the Destroyers, while Mordremoth corrupted plants for his minions.
We haven’t seen a death, plant, and fire destroyer, no, but we have seen a plant and fire destroyer, and a death and fire destroyer; we also see a death-and-fire destroyer spawn a plant-and-fire destroyer.
Actually, we might have seen a death, plant, and fire destroyer – I’m not sure if the Molten Dominator and Veteran Destroyer of Hope are just death-and-fire or death, plant, and fire.
You seem to claim that the Dream is what offers the protection from corruption, and not the fact that they are dragon-touched. If that’s the case, where did the Dream come from? How did the Pale Tree break away from Mordremoth’s control from the first place? It’s fine for you to say you don’t know, but until we learn a little more, I say it’s still a valid theory.
These are questions that aren’t answered, and should have been during HoT as that was the best time ever to answer them, but their lack of answer do not mean that dragon corruption prevents further dragon corruption.
Besides, we KNOW the Pale Tree broke away from Mordremoth’s control, regardless of one’s “valid theory” of why the sylvari are immune. Further, we KNOW that the Dream is separate from Mordremoth (see: White Stag), so Mordremoth’s own connection is also in question.
Besides all that, we were told outright that it was “the Pale Tree’s protection” – so whatever the source of the ‘immunity’ (and I use the term loosely given that it merely resulted in instant death rather than corruption) it is tied directly to the Pale Tree specifically, and Mordremoth was capable of bypassing said protection.
The Elder Dragon can implant thoughts in its creations—thoughts they may even believe to be their own—and only a combination of immense willpower and the protection of the Pale Tree can prevent Mordremoth from taking control. Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.
As we see with the mordrem hyleks, as well as Logan and Zojja, the mordrem created off of bodies living and dead are exact copies, including – somehow – one’s specialties. There’s dialogue in Jaka Itzel that talks about seeing a hylek who’s been missing for days bug slightly different and acting strangely (in other words, a mordrem hylek that’s so similar to the original’s appearance close friends recognize her but spot small changes in actions).
Mordremoth wanted diversity in his minions’ capabilities, on top of creating endless copies of them.
And the Pale Tree could have use the bodies as a template even as early as 1078 when we see it in Eye of the North. We don’t really know how early a tree can create minions, though the Auric Basin South watchpost meta does imply they can very early on, and also that the trees use bodies as nourishment to grow (but not to make minions – in other words, like any carnivorous plant).
Unfortunately the site of the interview (guildmag.com) is down so I cannot access the exact wording, and though I’m certain the same was said in-game somewhere obscure I don’t recall where, but IIRC the wording was that Primordus was personally clearing out tracks of land underground.
A dragon champion would be needed. Dragon minions only spread out far under the rule of dragon champion or Elder Dragon.
No dragon champions known in those areas. (The Megadestroyer was made a champion rank by the asura, as originally it was just a regular Destroyer Troll; and there’s no destroyer champions in Ascalon or Brisban).
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
IIRC, the Dragonspawn included a minotaur/bull skull and ribs. It was made of bone, ice, and mist (rather than the “ice like bone” that the wiki says).
Mordremoth uses them as templates while they’re hooked up to the Blighting Trees. Which is what the Pale Tree did, in a way (they were in its roots rather than pods). Corpses were never said to be used as materials, just templates – both living beings and corpses were used, regardless.
Heck, Taimi even says in Episode 1 that the Blighting Pod fluids have preservative attributes, usable to keep even disembodied organs from decaying, meaning that it’s meant to keep the body placed in alive and undecaying. So they definitely weren’t desolving things for materials.
I’m not sure how that’s really a retcon. The dwarf never said he woke up and just tunneled straight to RoF. It’s been 200 ish years. He had plenty of time to get there. We don’t know exactly how long Primordus had been under the island. We only know the dwarf has been there “for ages” but the dwarves have been fighting Prim for centuries now (and for a second time) and might have sent Orestriker and Co. ahead of Prim, as they knew that’s where he’d ultimately end up. (Also, they only sent 4? That might have some weird implications)
The RoF might be where the dragon ended up, but nothing ever said he hasn’t been other places doing other things between his awakening and his arrival.
Seis’ dialogue indicates the moving was recent, and it was a straight path to the Ring of Fire.
Rhoban’s dialogue also sounds like Primordus being at the Ring of Fire only recently, matching Seis’ achievements perfectly. There’s also Taimi’s dialogue, which practically claims Primordus was asleep still for the past 200 years…
Is it possible do we think, that he woke up, cleared out the Depths and returned to his “lair” in the Central Transfer Chamber once his territory was marked out. Dragons appear to prefer a central lair to occupy.
You mean ZHaitan did.
Jormag’s been constantly pushing south since it awoke in the Furious Stretch area. Kralkatorrik instantly flew away and certainly didn’t stick around his victorious battlefield. Mordremoth was spreading across the continent, only sticking his main body in place to feed on ley lines. The DSD has been moving about pushing sea creatures out – with new lore, the karka were kicked out not recently but about 100 years ago (petrified egg trinket from one of the heart vendors is dated to the rising of Orr) while the quaggan was forced out 50 years ago.
Only Zhaitan remained in place, doing nothing personally.
Also having Destroyers in , for example, Kessex Hills, doesn’t mean that Primordus himself was there. Just that his Minions found a Way to this Location. Its likely that Primordus moved around but stood most of the Time in the Shiverpeaks ( And well the Shiverpeaks are more than big enough for him moving around and still staying in the Shiverpeaks ), having enough Magic to eat there. He is only moving to the Fire Islands because there are vast amounts of Magic there now.
The wording was that Primordus’ movement is why the destroyers are widespread. Which would mean that Primordus’ movements were also somewhat widespread. It may not mean “he was at one point underneath Brisban Wildlands” but it does mean “he moved close enough that his destroyers got there”.
But Seis’ achievements/dialogues and Rhoban’s dialogues, as well as Taimi’s, indicate that Primordus has not only been inactive on the surface, but practically asleep and remained in the Central Transfer Chamber area for the past 200.
Taimi: According to what I documented, Primordus is awake— you know this. But here’s the more part…
Taimi: It’s moved! Tunneled its way down to the Fire Islands, south of Maguuma.
This line particularly is the counteraction. Combined with Seis and Rhoban reads that they completely discounted the lore that they had established, the explanation for why we see destroyers across the continent from Primordus – something unseen with any other Elder Dragon, especially those who like to remain in place like Zhaitan.
And with the Death Thing and Mordremoth. Right at LS2 we saw corpses being used by Mordremoth, most obvious with the Wolves. These Things are Corpses reanimated with Plant Matter. I would call that undead. The Trolls also look like some sort of Corpse being renimated by some Plant Matter. Not so sure about the Terragriffs but their Face also looks a bit Skull Like
So?
Jormag corrupts corpses too. It’s not something unique to Zhaitan.
What’s unique to Zhaitan is his corruption resulting in death, not that he corrupts the dead. Zhaitan corrupted living and fresh corpses and they instantly turned decayed and decrepid. That’s not something ever seen amongst any other Elder Dragon, even Mordremoth.
Scott McGough’s own line about the mordrem trolls is that they were living bodies being consumed by fungi which simultaneously replaced the body.
Mordremoth’s corruption is analogous to weeds and moss invading a garden and totally taking it over. The invader (for the purposes of this analogy, the weeds and moss) claims the nutrients and resources that would otherwise go to the existing plants, surrounds and envelops the native plants and digests them/converts them into more raw material it can use to grow, and then spreads outward, colonizing as it goes. The invader continues to get stronger and expand while the native plants are choked out/starved/digested and wither away. This sort of overwhelming growth/colonization can also be seen in the bodies of its minions like the Mordrem Wolf or Mordrem Troll (who were originally something else before they became Mordremoth minions—I’d call out an analogy to Alan Moore’s excellent classic Swamp Thing story, “The Anatomy Lesson,” where the creature’s original body is slowly replaced by plant material until you have essentially a plant version of the original that has the same general form but not necessarily the same function); there are also things like the Mordrem Vine Crawlers and Tendril Roots, which Mordy basically crafted from scratch using the plant material at hand
And Zhaitan’s Death thing isn’t just turning living into Undead but also using Dead Bodies to create more Minion, by either reanimating them or using these Bodies as Raw Material for other Types of Minions and well at the Time of HoT Mordremoth was also using the Dead as Raw Material.
Interesting enough. There has been no dead Things renimated by other Dragons now. No Icebrood, Branded or Destroyers were created using the Dead. ( Well for now, it’s likely that we see some Destrosyers in the Future who are also renimated Animals or People )
See, you’re wrong on this. Read Edge of Destiny. There’s a norn in the very first chapter who goes off to face the Dragonspawn. When he comes back, as an icebrood, his face is completely caved in and, iirc, denoted to be a moving corpse.
Also, look at the Claw of Jormag. It’s legs are ice-coated bones. Furthermore, the Dragonspawn was animated bones and ice. Yet another example of Jormag uses corpses and skeletons to make minions.
Both the Dragonspawn and said norn are made 6+ years before Zhaitan’s death.
And let’s not forget the fact that the Pale Tree used human corpses to base sylvari off of – the exact same thing Blighting Trees do – and over twenty years before Zhaitan’s death.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Remember that sylvari being dragon minions was a plot 2 years in the making, after some foreshadowing (they were the only race that couldn’t be corrupted by other dragons, because they were already claimed by one). We might meet Malyck yet in Chapter 3, but if we don’t see him soon, he might just be a casualty of the plot.
Really? People still spout the whole “they can’t be corrupted because they’re dragon minions” despite the fact that Primordus does exactly that to his own destroyers with other Elder Dragons’ corruptions?
Arguing against the existence of Subject Alpha and Kudu’s Monster because they were lab experiments, sure, might mean though physically possible the Elder Dragons may actively avoid doing such, but now we see that isn’t the case.
And that goes nothing for all the hints, implications, and elusive wording that almost outright states that the defense came from the Dream and that Mordy can only circumvent because he also has access to the Dream…
During LS2C3, after the destruction of Fort Triumph (I think), you meet a Durmand Priory member who has been moving magical artifacts around to prevent dragon minions from finding them easily. She mentions that one is a locket that will show the face of the next ruler of Kryta. People started predicting that Jennah will be killed off after learning this tidbit.
Fort Concordia.
Primordus’ movement from the Shiverpeaks to the Ring of Fire is still a thing. They didn’t change that at least. The dwarf we find in the Ring of Fire confirms it if you go back and ask him about his history.
Forgot to comment on this. The thing is that Primordus’ movement from the Shiverpeaks to the Ring of Fire is the retcon. Older lore stated he’s been moving about since waking up, clearing out tracks of land deep underground (aka making the Depths bigger) and spawning destroyers across (subcontinental) Tyria (hence why we see them in Brisban, Kessex, Maelstrom, and Ascalon in EoD).
With the new explanation (aka retcon) we’re left wondering why the heck there are destroyers all over the place.
Primordus’ goal in the end does seem, unlike the other Elder Dragons, to be global extinction. When GW2 was first being revealed, and the truth behind the Great Destroyer told, it was mentioned that the Great Destroyer was Primordus’ herald who’s purpose was to “prepare the way” for Primordus’ coming by wiping out all civilization on the surface.
Primordus has no need nor want of living species. So causing volcanic eruptions is fully okay with him given that.
As for why Primordus didn’t cause seismic activity or massive volcanic eruptions in his move from the Shiverpeaks – that’s actually pretty easy to explain. If you superheat rock to melt it rather than break it, you don’t cause the same vibrations, and he’s so far deep underground that doing such would have minimal effect on the surface (and his depth is why it’s taken so long for destroyers to even begin sprouting on the surface).
We were told why he moved. An abundant amount of energy – from Zhaitan’s and Mordremoth’s deaths – had gathered there.
That seems rather idiotic on the dragons’ part.
Primordus went to the greatest concentration of Zhaitan’s and Mordremoth’s magic – that’s why he went to the Ring of Fire Islands, not because it was nice and cozy for his heat therapy. He wasn’t slurping up fire magic and one day going “-slurp slurp slurp- hurk, death magic -poops out rotting destroyers-” He saw a plate of death and plant magic being unattended and decided to munch down.
Which means that Jormag would have to actively seek out that fire magic that Primordus would no longer be eating. And he’d be idiotic to do that since it’s a direct counter to his own magic.
Same with the DSD and ice magic – but then, even if the DSD started eating ice magic, that doesn’t mean it’ll choose to freeze over the ocean. Nor would it mean it’d be unable to eat the fire magic, thus keeping the two (ice magic and fire magic) at room temperature.
Charr despise gods, but they do accept their existence. And while they consider all charr who worship a god to be Flame Legion, they wouldn’t deny any gifts they bestow (just look at Pyre’s opinion of the Searing in GW1, for example).
Rytlock not telling them is just Rytlock being Rytlock. I mean, look how often he dodges us without Rox – about not just the Mists thing, but Sohothin as well. Or how he dodges about his warband.
Rytlock is the #1 “no exposition” character in the entire series.
So could Zhaitan’s power. Remember the living people that he changed into minions IN FRONT OF US? Or the Necromancer in the last Charr Personal Story mission for the Orders? That necromancer was very much alive. Zhaitan’s power may be able to corrupt the living if they accept his power, like the other dragons.
Yes, but those corrupted still turned into rotting corpses. First they become poisoned and sickened, then rotten.
Remember Kellach?
But IIRC there was also dialogue in-game which mentioned this. And if Primordus wasn’t active, how the heck did destroyers get as far from him as Brisban Wildlands, Mount Maelstrom, and nearby Ebonhawke (Blazeridge Steppes/Fields of Ruin area)?
The exposition said that the reason Mordy could use corpses as templates to generate Mordrem (such as Diarmid) was that he got hold of Zhaitan’s death magic.
Yeah, see, there’s two problems with that claim.
First off, Mordremoth didn’t corrupt the corpses. What he did was akin to tracing. Primordus does the the same, but more akin to sketching free hand. The only possible minion that was a corrupted corpse would be the mordrem wolves. Nothing else was at all necromatic.
Second off, the Pale Tree did exactly that to create the sylvari, though less tracing and more free hand sketching like Primordus (but far more accurate), over two decades before Zhaitan died.
Either Taimi is wrong, or the writers are not making much sense in consistency or logical deduction.
The weird thing is, I “knew” this.
A while ago I could’ve sworn it was mentioned somewhere in the game, that when an Elder Dragons dies the other ED’s become stronger because they absorb the other dragon’s power. Though I could not remember where I heard/read this.I took it to this forum but everyone stated that it wasn’t true, nor was it mentioned anywhere in the lore. So I just assumed I just imagined the whole thing.
But here we are..
EDIT: It’s still possible I imagined the whole thing and this is just a coincidence, but who knows..
It’s been a player theory that Mordremoth absorbed Zhaitan’s power, but aside from what sparked the theory – the Shadow of the Dragon’s shadow tendrils and smothering shadow spawns, there was never any show of it.
We knew that an Elder Dragon’s magic went back into the world, and we knew that Elder Dragons consumed magic in the world, as do their minions even the risen after Zhaitan’s death, but we never knew about Elder Dragons gaining control of the others’ spheres of power.
I’m doubtful. Lazarus never died, despite the often mentions of resurrecting him. What happened was that in GW1, we tampered with a fragment of his soul to hinder his use of magic. Basically this meant we maimed him and turned him into a kitten .
To overcome his handicap, he had to absorb a kitten ton of magic. But he was never dead. Heck, he never really was “close to death” unless what we did to him in GW1 was far worse than what anyone guessed or said.
Of course, that doesn’t stop Marjory from thinking she could use the opportunity. But nothing will come of it, that’s for sure. Especially without a preserved corpse.
What’s confusing me is that nothing Mordremoth did, despite Taimi’s claim, was related to death.
With the possible exception of the mordrem wolves, Mordremoth never corrupted corpses, or had decay in his corruption.
And the only mordrem to utilize shadow was the Shadow of the Dragon – but that stuff is in the creature’s name and feels no more an overtaking of domains than Glint having telepathy.
If so, that would be a bigger disappointment than them moving Primordus to the Ring of Fire and ignoring the epic Depths of Tyria.
Say, why aren’t the asura, skritt, and other forced-from-underground races returning now that Primordus is no longer there?
Oh, and does this mean that Primordus never moved in 200 years thus retconing Jeff Grubb and previous in-game lore about Primordus moving about to spread destroyers across Central Tyria?
If so, it says the Seers originates from the time of the tome of Rubicon but not more. There is also an issue with the Tome itself. So far the only source I could find (on Google) dating the Tome to before the dragons felt asleep is either you (guru or other sites) or Santax (wiki). In your case you said it should have been written before the fall of the ED because it describes how one general of Primordius fell.
Since then we know that ED champs and ED themselves don’t follow the same cycle so it leaves time between the last Fall of ED and the war between Mursaat and Seers.
You missed a few other things.
Trueclaw mentions that records are sparse from the previous dragonrise, but also mentions they have the Tome of Rubicon though it’s reliability is an issue. Randall Greyston mentions that the mursaat returned to become named the Unseen Ones, meaning that they only returned shortly before GW1. The “Ancient Seer”: from GW1 mentions they fought the mursaat “for centuries” which contradicts Randall’s line if we presume that the war happened after the mursaat returned.
And though I cannot find it atm, I believe it was stated that the war between mursaat and seer was ancient by GW1’s time. Ree also calls it an “ancient war”.
Of course, the point of mursaat’s return to the world is another point of contention between lore. Some say they returned shortly before they were discovered in GW1, the tablets say they returned mere centuries after leaving.
So until these tablets, we never had reason to believe the mursaat have been skulking in the shadows of the world for thousands of years rather than simply not yet returning to Tyria.
So either the tablets are wrong or severely and strangly lacking, or the war isn’t so ancient (aka retcon on what Ree said – again), or Randall (who is an expert on the topic, thus implying all of the Priory) are wrong.
EDIT: FORUM BUG BEGONE!
He almost died before he absorbed a Bloodstone’s worth of power. He was just one normal mursaat back then. Now he’s basically the Superman of mursaat.
So a lot has changed with what he’s capable of.
And if he is just tricking the Pact Commander (who’s to say that he isn’t the reason why the defenses failed? After all, mursaat and Forgotten worked close together so they have similar magic), then it’s possible he’s waiting for either the Pact Commander to be weakened, or waiting to absorb more magic and become more powerful.
On my reaper I’ve never had problems when I was swarmed by the old destroyers. The new ones however, even three were making me use up both death shroud and heal skill constantly.
So I’d be hesitant to say the new ones are weaker overall.
Their burning may do less, but the overall damage likely does more (given that they now poison, immobilize, etc.).
Zojja and Logan are actually briefly mentioned in Out of the Shadows. Though, uh, Zojja’s not blind – even if you rescue her first. And which one is comatose there depends on which you rescue first (if you rescued Logan first, then Zojja’s the comatose one). In S3, both are stated to be awake but heavily injured.
The bloodstones were never empty. Except for maybe a brief time in 1 BE to Year 0.
On the other hand, they’re stronger than destroyers were.
We haven’t seen the “real destroyers” yet either. These are basically just empowered weakling destroyers.
@Walhalla, Mada and a few others:
There is no explicit mention what the betrayal was, but we do know that the mursaat waged war and wiped out the Seers before fleeing the world (per interviews with Jeff and Ree – unfortunately the site that was on seems to be down ) and that the mursaat betrayed the Seers (possibly the other races) before fleeing the world (per Randall Greyston in Arah).
The act of betrayal wasn’t explicitly just leaving the world. It wasn’t explicitly wiping out the Seers either. However, we know that they betrayed then left; and we know they wiped out the Seers then left.
They fought “around the time the Tome of Rubicon was written” – the old lore wording – which was written before the Elder Dragons fell asleep. Which in turn means that the mursaat waged war before they left.
And true, it doesn’t say that the seers were wiped out by their civil warring, but it seems implied in the wording.
@Squee: On second look, I suppose you’re right that the line could be twisted to be indicating that it’s talking about the world’s societies. However, the key thing to look at is that it’s a singular society that devolved and divided into violent tribes.
@Drax: I never said “the mursaat were never good guys.”
The problem is that the tablets are telling a brand new version of the lore. And it’s not a matter of perspective when you’re telling a tale so drastically different that major events which never took place are mentioned and events which did take place are ignored.
The dwarves fought back, against Jormag and Primordus at least (note: Sanguinary Blade and Tome of Rubicon). Mursaat waged war before leaving (per above), destroying their civilization. Those are the two major ones.
There’s a difference between telling your version of history, and telling a different version of history.
The former case, you’re talking about the same events but different causes and reasons.
The latter case, you’re talking about different events entirely.
The tablets do the latter. And that’s the problem I see.
Lazarus is clearly up to no good and the game definitely wants you to think so too. Otherwise they wouldn’t have the Commander seeing red flags straight away
My problem with the Lazarus thing atm is that the Commander reacts to him the exact same way he responded to Canach and to Caithe in S2 (and HoT, in Caithe’s case).
Both cases were very bad writing with very overexaggerated reactions and knee-jerk changes by writers (or so it felt).
A guildie of mine noticed that the head shape is the same as that of the Mouth of Mordremoth. If you look in profile I think she’s right. So that explosion of energy from Mordy’s death that hit the egg might have affected the hatched appearance?
Was just coming to denote the same thing. Nose and especially jaw has some similarities to Mordremoth (both avatar and physical body (mouth of mordremoth)). The skin on the head also looks a bit barky, as I mentioned above, rather than scales or crystal.
It’s the textures that make that thing look a little off. It looks… like a wooden puppet painted blue and adorned with crystals.
The betrayal was wiping out the seer race. Which the tablets make no mention of. The fleeing the world came after the betrayal.
If it was merely a case of “the victors write the history” case, then the tablets would be talking about righteous retribution against those who would steal their magic and cower with it all. It wouldn’t say the seers wiped themselves out.
Last we saw him, he swore endless suffering on countless generations because we messed with his ability to use magic.
Does that seem like a guy who’d turn over a new leaf? Not to me.
And if he does… -sigh-
Here’s the thing, Guguwars. EVERY single piece of lore about the “mursaat betrayal” states that they waged war with the seers as their act of betrayal, and that they nearly wiped the seers out in said war while the tablet claims the seers were wiped out by civil war and not a single indication of the mursaat invoking retribution (the theory that was the mursaat’s saving grace). Every single piece of lore also states that the races hid together, under Glint, and did so after the mursaat left the world – while the tablets state that the races hid separately and before the mursaat left.
We’re not talking one source versus one source. We’re talking 10 or so sources – in-game lore from Glint, dwarves, jotun, seers, Priory scholars, as well as out-of-game lore from two major writers of the series (Ree and Jeff) – versus one, more recent (which is often the rule of ‘new trumps old’ sometimes) source.
The accounts are so drastically different that the mursaat tablets cannot even count as a subjective view. It’s an entire rewrite of history.
I read the tablets thanks to a poster on reddit. Link here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/53pduh/spoiler_tablets_of_the_unseen/
This is a complete blatant and terrible retcon, or the tablets are 100% lies. But if there is no point for such HUMONGOUS lies to be written for themselves.
If this was a similar but not the same retelling of what we knew, then it could be easily passed as mursaat lies to themselves. But this? We’re getting two different stories in the same setting. It’s like watching the Hobbit movies and reading the Hobbit book. Vastly different, though same overarching plotline.
ArenaNet, you did so well with Episode 1. Even the things that initially made no sense was explained in a perfectly believable way. It was your redemption from Season 1 and HoT’s sad storytelling.
But then we get this…
And turning Lazarus to be a good guy makes no sense, not after he swore eternal revenge on countless generations of humanity and asura-kind. But I’ll reserve that full judgement to playing through the main storyline.
And though not lore, the mursaat outfit + backpiece… -sigh- obvious money getting move is obvious. Would be nice to have a foe that’s humanoid and is fully unique for once. Should have been Lazarus, but screw uniqueness and screw continuity, I’m guessing?
Yeah, I’m a bit stingy. This and Dhuum are the plots I was really looking forward to being closed, was promised years ago “epic plans” and now we get a “screw old lore, we’re changing it all”.
2. The Mursaat, according to the tablets weren’t all that bad. They were abandoned by the other races.
Seriously?
So they build so much lore that’s loved. And decided to go ‘lul nope’.
The mursaat from day one were developed as bad guys. They were the ones who betrayed the other races. They were the ones who committed genocide. Twice.
Now they’re the victims? Now they’re the good guys?
kitten .
While we’re at it, let’s say that the jotun themselves were gods, the Six were mursaat, and largos are dragon minions. It makes as much sense as this ‘twist’.
3. The Mursaat and Forgotten assaulted Zhaitan together but failed.
So we finally get some lore about Zhaitan’s activities in the previous dragonrise. Question is… did they do such in Arah? Because if so, there’s a huge lore conflict, because they purified Glint there – a champion of Kralkatorrik. Such a dragon champion would not have gone to another Elder Dragon’s front door, and I doubt that the Forgotten would be capable of pulling off that ritual with an Elder Dragon breathing down their neck.
And we were told that the ritual is geographically restricted.
And if they fought Zhaitan there after purifying Glint, then wouldn’t the mursaat have left the world – having betrayed (or as its been retconned as: having been betrayed by) the other races.
The awakening cycle is unaffected because Mordremoth was the last Elder Dragon to wake up.
The Elder Dragons become “active” is just Tyrian speak for “they’re doing stuff (again)”, which they tend to overlap with anyways (both Jormag and Zhaitan were active during the PS, after all; we just manage to push Jormag back – or rather, norn players, Priory players, and Grawl/Quaggan sympathizing players do – before he can make an assault like Zhaitan did).
It’s been my theory that all three Central Tyrian ED would become active in S3. Two down, Kralkatorrik to go.
A domain being under a God’s control doesn’t mean it’s not hostile, I mean look at UW/FoW. The Fury might be dead , but that doesn’t necessarily mean the creation of the Titans just stopped, someone could have taken over. Also if not, we can’t be sure we wiped out the Titans entirely. Even after the death of the Fury we encountered Titans in the holdout phase of the Mallyx Encounter.
I never said the Realm of Torment isn’t hostile. I said the titans are no longer there, at least in noticeable force, because the source of their creation is gone.
If titans remain, they’d be naturally occurring and likely few in numbers, or be remnants of what the Fury made, which would have been hunted down over the past 250 years (especially during whatever remained of the fight with Mallyx, such as assaulting his ebony citadel).
In either case, it would be both illogical for Lazarus to try to unleash his race’s greatest enemy, and also unlikely to occur because the primary (if not sole) reason for them to be at the Foundry (where the Door led) is gone and has been gone for 250 years.
But that is my point. Elder Dragons corrupt what they can.
However,all Elder Dragons never corrupt souls, which is exactly what the titans technically are – souls that form bodies out of their environment. Primordus could, in practice, corrupt the titans’ body, but he doesn’t do that.
Furthermore, how Primordus corrupts is by creating pools of lava which slowly form destroyers. He doesn’t even corrupt elementals, so even that would be unusual for Primordus.
I don’t know how intelligent elder dragons are, but if Primordus knows about the Flameseeker Prophecies and knows how strong the last of the Mursaat has become this might be his chance to hit two fly with one stone, to say. Get the possession of the remaining Titans, and use them against the last remaining Mursaat who recently got a lot of magic. And as far as I know in Guild Wars lore Titans beats Mursaat.
Elder Dragons know what their minions know, which would make most Elder Dragons highly intelligent, but potentially Primordus the dumbest. There’s no reason he would know of the Flameseeker Prophecies since it was foretold and fulfilled while he slept and never related to him, his location, or his minions.
I might be saying something stupid but is it possible both Lazarus and Primordus are going to RoF not because of the Bloodstone but because of the Door of Komalie?
Probably there are bloodstones easier to access, and probably some of them are under white mantle control. If lazarus were aiming them, I think it would be logical to get those first.
The RoF Bloodstone is – or was – under WM/Mursaat control. So it would be the most notable for Lazarus to go after.
What happenned to the Door of Komalie after the events of prophecies is a mystery for me, but if we assume it remained closed because the soul batteries, those batteries might “expire” soon. Considering this Lazarus might be heading that way to refill them.
Also if Lazarus was to fail in keeping the Door of Komalie closed and we encounter Titans once again, is it possible for Primordus to corrupt them? As far as I know Titans adapt to their terrains , if we encounter them in RoF they are all gonna be stones & fire, which could be corrupted by the Fire Dragon IMO.
Also if this can happen, Lazarus might be aiming to open the Door of Komalie to release Titans once again, but to be corrupted by the elder dragon, making him a lot stronger, which in return will weaken us much more.
The titans are long gone, given that the Domain of Anguish went under Kormir’s control a long with the rest of the Realm of Torment, and the singular reason why titans were at the Foundry of Failed Creations was because The Fury was making them – and we killed it in GW1.
There’s literally nothing of major interest out of the Door of Komalie – to Lazarus or Primordus at least. The only reason why the mursaat cared about it was because its opening foretold their race’s extinction (which is, mostly, true) but that’s come and gone. It could prove to become a new raid entrance (would be fun, and a good non-main storyplot way for ArenaNet to further tell the story of the Six Gods, Menzies, and Dhuum), but Primordus could have gone after it at any point in the past 200 years – or the portal in the Tomb of the Primeval Kings or in Drascir, if what he wanted was merely a portal to the Mists (only Jormag shows any interests in The Mists, btw). And there’s nothing there for Lazarus unless his ‘virtuous pursuits’ turn out to be ‘kill and replace Kormir’.
I don’t want this with Primordus. I don’t want him to be a volcano or a river of lava. I want him to be a gigantic and terrifying monster with wings, like Zaithan was.
When I first read about the Elder Dragons they were described as being as big as mountain ranges. Zaithan.. well, he was kinda big, I guess. As for terrifying… uhm…
I secretly hope we discover that the ring of fire IS primordius. That is, that the islands are the tips of spikes on his back and the earthquakes are just him stretching. I know it wouldn’t quite fit in with the image of Primordus moving around under Tyria ..but darn would it be impressive.
You misread. It’s that Kralkatorrik – and only Kralkatorrik – was mistaken as a single mountain because dirt and vegetation had overgrown them in the thousands of years they slept.
Primordus was thought to be a (large) statue. Zhaitan, Jormag, Mordremoth, and the DSD are best as we know never seen until they woke.
We saw Primordus in GW1. He was nowhere near the Ring of Fire – he was in the Central Transfer Chamber, underground. Also, Primordus has been awake and moving across Tyria underground for the past 200 years. He’s probably one of the smallest Elder Dragons given that he’s underground and all, and compared to Kralkatorrik he is most definitely tiny (we saw only a portion of Kralkatorrik’s back and it was stupidly larger than Primordus’ head-to-shoulders).
Ehmry Bay can exist, though I’d say that sounds like somewhere in Elona to me personally, but I don’t think it should be Ember Bay which is both aesthetically accurate descriptor (whereas Ehmry Bay would have to be named after some explorer or a mursaat or somthing for it to make sense) and has lore ties to GW1 (again, Ember Light Camp).
Make Ehmry Bay some bay alone the Scavenger’s Causeway or the new Elon River’s path or something.
Sanctum of Rall – since it was mentioned – could be the grave of Centurion Rall Oldroar, as both are named after the same person.
By your argument, all dogs are collies. I never mentioned anything about the other elder dragons, only Mordremoth. The devs themselves have stated that Mordy’s corruption is different from the other dragons. I don’t know why you continue to insist that all elder dragons must act the same, despite seeing that they don’t.
And I explicitly mentioned Scarlet Briar as an example.
And all Elder Dragons have the same core fundamentals of corrupting, even Mordremoth shows that. However, every Elder Dragon also shows their own unique methodology and preference in corrupting. Primordus actually corrupts in a very, very similar manner to Mordremoth. Just replace Blighting Tree with lava pool, and exact duplicate to rough sketch, and you go from Mordremoth to Primordus.
What made Mordremoth different was his connection to the Dream and in turn his ability to exhibit “the call”.
Yes, I am saying that Mordremoth’s control of the sylvari depended heavily on their proximity to them. Not one sylvari came under his control until they were close by. The only sylvari that were affected by Mordremoth were either in the maguma wastes or the Heart of Maguma. Not one sylvari outside of these areas was affected. Even in the heart of Maguma, Rata Novus somehow provided protection against Mordremoth’s influence. Go back and play the Rata Novus episodes and pay attention to Canach.
You cannot prove this, as we never see the effects of sylvari far away from him once “the call” went out. In game, at least. And out of game, well, Aaron provides something about that.
There are a lot of possibilities for why Rata Novus, which was close than Camp Resolve or the skies above Verdant Brink, would provide a… dampening of Mordremoth’s telepathy.
There is no proof that the pale tree was purified by any thing. Please stop pushing this fairy tale as if it was fact.
By the literal foundation for how every mordrem (and, technically speaking, other dragon minion) functions, if the Pale Tree was not purified in some form of manner at some point before creating sylvari, then she would have been “praise Mordremoth!” from the very beginning and so would every Firstborn and Secondborn and all other sylvari.
There is no statement, but there most definitely is proof.
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