Guild Wars 2

kgptzac.8419:

I think this thread was meant to be a constructive dissection on the game’s problem and offer ways to improve. And a few pages of replies later we now see fanboys and armchair gamer psychologists what should and should not be fun, and people should or should not be playing this game.

The epic derailment is rather amusing.

Let’s all restrain from defining what is fun and impose your idea of fun to other individuals. The thread is made because the poster didn’t have fun, and the number of replies and relevant topics show that his grievance is shared by many others. What I’m seeing is that some people are spewing walls of text—with sensible words, but nothing constructive to the improvement of the game (and only reinforcing/preaching their own idea of “fun”).

Most logical suggestions regarding rewards (which arenanet recently started to implement) have no negative impact to those who already consider the controversial aspects the game are fun. The only conclusion I can reach is that some posters seem to want their kind of “fun” to be as exclusive as possible, although in truth the ideas are not mutually exclusive at all.

Hopefully this thread can recover from this derailment, but I won’t hold my breath.

Did you even read the OP?

It had nothing to do w/ him having or not having fun, let alone any logical suggestions on how to rectify any issues. Rather he made attempts to do exactly what you said, which is define what “fun” should and should not be as he attempts to “prescribe” as being from ANet’s manifesto.

Fiction: OMG THERE ARE BOTS EVERYWHERE! THE GAME IS BEING OVERRUN! THEY MAKE UP MORE THAN HALF THE PLAYERBASE.

Fact: I’ve completed 72% of the entire map and have yet to see one.

In my 30 years, I have never experience such mind blowing reasoning as this.

Personally, I’ve never seen Mexico, so that must mean it doesn’t exist either!!

or… just maybe… it does exist and you haven’t yet seen it? Nahhhh!

Several Bots Farming Sons of Svanir
Several Bots Farming more Sons of Svanir
Several Bots Farming Elementals
Several Bots Farming Centaur
Several Bots Farming Events
Teleport Hack Bots Farming
Teleport Hack Bots Farming
Teleport Hack Bots Farming
Teleport Hack Bots Farming
Teleport Hack Bots Farming
Bot Farming Events

my favorite…

World vs World Borderland Bot Army

Take your time doing it. Enjoy it.

Swagman.9013:

Lance I would just love to hear your idea for a 0 grind mmo, do remember that I don’t want to do the same task or anything similar to it for more than 3 times else it’s a grind. Please give me your months worth of completely unique content start to finish.

I think I’ll do just that when I get home tonight. You can expect a reply on that tomorrow.

Keep in mind, only reason I didn’t accept a job (that I was offered) at a game design company is because I make a boatload of money as a software architect

Looking for it, was a while ago. It wasn’t exact words though. More like you don’t need to grind to enjoy the game.

“Don’t have to grind to enjoy the game” and “Will need to grind for reason X” are two COMPLETELY different topics.

Keep it Apples to Apples

I couldn’t agree any more with this post and it’s cited joystiq article.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/08/29/guild-wars-2-a-grind-by-any-other-name/

Lance Coolee.9480:

Fayel.7589:

They stated that there WILL be grind for certain AESTHETIC items

Show me where they said this.

I still would like to know where they said this.

Sheen.8196:

Lance Coolee.9480:

Sheen.8196:

Skorpio.3571:

Sheen.8196:

I’ve noticed with gw2 that it is a battle of proficient gamers vs casual gamers… the proficient gamers went through everything easily, they don’t think any of the dungeons are challenging, and they feel like the game has very little content… yet a bunch of casuals who will hit that point in a few months are sitting here telling them they play incorrectly? Since when is being the most efficient in your rotations and completing tasks, playing incorrectly?

It’s not proficient vs. casual, it’s time played. The “proficient” just have 10 times the amount of hours put in.

Why do people always confuse casual with bad? Casual just as much means players that only log in for 1-2 hours a day or possibly even gasp skip a day!

PS- I agree with most of your other points in this thread.

Wrong… proficient gamers don’t necessarily have to be hardcore, whether they play a ton or a little, they still do everything more quickly and more efficiently.

It might take a proficient gamer an hour to do something a casual would do in 3 hours. I don’t mean casual as in play time, I mean casual as in attitude… the whole “I am going tokittenaround, not really know what i’m doing, and just hit my spells in a way that seems to make sense to me”.

These people consume content more slowly, and because of their careless attitude they often don’t play as much. (People that aren’t passionate about a hobby often would invest less time in such a hobby)

Sheen, your making statements that have some validity to them, but your offering them in a very derogatory way. I wouldn’t associate “casual” gameplay as “careless” gameplay.

Sorry I’m not the type to sugarcoat reality. I think the sugarcoating and coddling of certain playstyles are the reason mmorpgs in this day and age lack so much challenge and content in the first place.

Well, again you associate “casual” with “careless”.

I consider myself a “casual” player, since I can’t really devote more than a few hours of gameplay on weekdays, but I also tend to blow through challenges because I don’t have as high a learning curve.

Fayel.7589:

They stated that there WILL be grind for certain AESTHETIC items

Show me where they said this.

Sheen.8196:

Skorpio.3571:

Sheen.8196:

I’ve noticed with gw2 that it is a battle of proficient gamers vs casual gamers… the proficient gamers went through everything easily, they don’t think any of the dungeons are challenging, and they feel like the game has very little content… yet a bunch of casuals who will hit that point in a few months are sitting here telling them they play incorrectly? Since when is being the most efficient in your rotations and completing tasks, playing incorrectly?

It’s not proficient vs. casual, it’s time played. The “proficient” just have 10 times the amount of hours put in.

Why do people always confuse casual with bad? Casual just as much means players that only log in for 1-2 hours a day or possibly even gasp skip a day!

PS- I agree with most of your other points in this thread.

Wrong… proficient gamers don’t necessarily have to be hardcore, whether they play a ton or a little, they still do everything more quickly and more efficiently.

It might take a proficient gamer an hour to do something a casual would do in 3 hours. I don’t mean casual as in play time, I mean casual as in attitude… the whole “I am going tokittenaround, not really know what i’m doing, and just hit my spells in a way that seems to make sense to me”.

These people consume content more slowly, and because of their careless attitude they often don’t play as much. (People that aren’t passionate about a hobby often would invest less time in such a hobby)

Sheen, your making statements that have some validity to them, but your offering them in a very derogatory way. I wouldn’t associate “casual” gameplay as “careless” gameplay.

Skorpio.3571:

Why do people always confuse casual with bad?

I don’t recall seeing that in this thread, but likewise the same can be said in reverse.

Why do people always confuse “non-casual” with bad? (neither is an opinion i share).

Windklinge.4076:

i made a post in suggestion forums considering legendarys and the “grind” faktor in it. while i think to a certain degree you need some sort of “grind” it should be the player decides which he wants to do. feel free to comment there^^

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/please-give-more-OPTIONS-to-craft-a-legendary/first#post262609

These are the kind of suggestions that add depth to the game. They’re also the kind of suggestions that REQUIRE a complete rework of how “endgame” content is imagined.

nerva.7940:

they delivered everything in the manifesto

Opinion noted.

I would, however like to see you’re proof, because as a consumer I do feel a little duped.

Swagman.9013:

So guild wars 1 had 0 grind completely fun replayable content with enough rewards to keep players going for years, all within 1 month of release.

Well I don’t get why you would ever play any other game ever again.

…. unless it was from the same company and development staff that created that one and claimed to be better, maybe?

Gauradan.8361:

I’m sorry, are you referring to Guild Wars 1 in your post?

Negative, I just hit the “quote” button on ur reply. I was replying to mister all-caps’ post.

Swagman.9013:

Nobody has ever said grinding doesn’t exist in gw2. It’s not required.

Nobody argued that it was / wasn’t. It was merely stated that the game DESIGNERS said they didn’t believe in it, led us to believe it wouldn’t exist, then completely reversed that philosophy on us, by injecting it in all corners of the game.

Skorpio.3571:

The class structure isn’t groundbreaking at all and you essentially find a setup you like the most and stick with it.

I was so disappointed w/ this too. I was really hoping there would have been better support for managing “loadouts” (sets of skills / gear) out of combat so that I could quickly adapt to the situation in front of me.

Turns out that none of the situations really required the level of depth though, so I for the most part just stick to my basic setup and rarely change it after.

Gauradan.8361:

Swagman.9013:

THEN WHAT WIZARD MAGIC WERE YOU EXPECTING ANET TO COME UP WITH TO MAKE A 0 GRIND MMO THAT’S CAPTIVATING FOR YEARS, AND WHY ARE YOU UPSET WHEN YOU FOUND OUT IT HAS A GRIND.

Guild Wars 1. That is all. Also Caps Lock doesn’t get your point across, logic does.

So wait, if we can’t achieve infinitely varying content, the only other viable solution is to implement incredibly redundant content? Oh that must’ve been the innovation they were talking about.

So there’s no middle ground here, like say, giving players the immediate opportunity to buy a dungeon skin after completing the story line, then setting them up with an epic quest path (that involves them entering / completing each of the explorable modes) that allows them to take their story armor and craft a cooler looking exotic set? Heck! why not sprinkle in some ties to the open world and you’ve got yourself some variety!

That’s just a drop of a dime suggestion, but don’t tell me that the creative team responsible for composing such a beautiful looking world just completely brainfarted on the PvE content at 80.

I’m sorry, I thought the “definition” of grinding was pretty well known.

So tell me, in what universe do you live in that repeating one of 3 options collectively up to 46 times is not a grind?

Swagman.9013:

“We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2, no one enjoys that, no one finds it fun.”
Can I have the dungeon armor that I like without grinding? No.
Why are dungeons a grind? Because they’re not fun.
Why aren’t they fun? Because they’re poorly designed.
Why are they poorly designed? Because the difficulty is artificially created via huge health pools and huge damage on mobs, instead of clever mechanics.
Oh, so I can’t have that dungeon armor then? Nope.
You can’t just say that to people. ArenaNet need people to buy their expansions to keep the game going. How do you get people to buy expansions? By making the previous content entertaining.

There you go lance. Bottom of page 1

Yes, the BOTTOM of page 1, where his opinions were provoked and delivered. Again, they had no bearing on the ORIGINAL premise of his post, which was what you seem to argue repeatedly.

If you want to combat me with semantics, at least do it apples to apples.

Swagman.9013:

Gauradan.8361:

Swagman.9013:

Well then this sentiment along with the projected problem as we have worded it is a far more agreeable approach than the Anet lied about grinding one.

What just happened is a well thought out problem and possible solution in an intelligent context.

I believe karma rewards should be boosted for reasons X, Y, Z because of evidence manifesto, but in a reasonable amount so as not to disturb balance of the hardcore and casual.

If I saw that as a post I’d agree all day with that. But stating that Anet lied when they certainly did not (even though you still feel they lied to you) comes off as hostile and warrants the same response.

I never stated they lied. Perhaps they didn’t even feel getting karma armor was a grind. I’m just pointing out that it does require the completion of several hundred dynamic events, which makes it, in the common definition of the notion, a grind, which in turn was contradictory to their statement in the manifesto. It was an observation, nothing more. Besides, saying that my post is hostile is a bit too much. In fact, the OP is probably my least hostile post in the entire thread.

And all I was pointing out is that there is nothing in the game that requires you to get that armor, so your grind is self induced. You will get that armor eventually if you just play the game normally which is 100% possible as you are now. The only reason you view it as a grind is because you want it now.

Enough with these style of responses. They are garbage.

Nobody can require anybody to do anything. How can you possibly use that as an argument?

Every one of the “reward-based” goals can only currently be met by grinding.

You mean to tell me that I as a consumer aren’t allowed to expect ArenaNet to deliver on their word of not believing ANY aspect of the game should feel like a grind?

Porky.5021:

Gauradan.8361:

I’m just pointing out that it does require the completion of several hundred dynamic events, which makes it, in the common definition of the notion, a grind, which in turn was contradictory to their statement in the manifesto

You’re looking for a game where you do everything exactly one time?

I personally was just looking for ArenaNet to hold true to their word; I am still rooting for them, but IN MY OPINION there are just far too many things they hadn’t delivered on.

Swagman.9013:

Oh so the op used the scientific method, with his own personal GW2 experience.

I hear running 1 experiment with no control data, or opposing theories is how science is done these days.

Cause I have had and it seems like many others have had a very different view point from his, but I’m the wrong one for trying to reach a compromise, well you call that opinionated, but the op has been using facts the entire time. Ok.

I would think that we both read the same series of posts, so why don’t you show me one statement the OP made that explicitly injects his opinion.

Furthermore, reducing the cost of the items does not remove the grind, it merely makes it more manageable.

For the content designers to really hold true to their word, obtaining rewards would have more of a dynamic “quest-based” feel (where there are uniquely clear objectives in place that would drive the player to the end result), rather than the cookie cutter “do x, y times”.

Swagman.9013:

Gauradan.8361:

Swagman.9013:

Alright and to that end I’m saying, if we all define what a grind is to ourselves. Then for the sake of arguement you have to allow that some people may not view the dungeons karma or even legendaries as a grind, but fun.

So for those people that part of the manifesto was spot on. And all I’m saying is, by admonishing something that goes against what you think is fun and falls into a category that you think is grinding, it is being selfish to think it needs to change.

And that’s all I’ve been trying to say, there’s a few thousand other players in this game, we have to consider them all.

And ArenaNet could very well cater for both kinds of people. How? Very simple: reduce the cost of karma armor, so that those who view it as a grind can stop doing events. All the while, the people who consider it fun can get the armor, but also keep doing the events because they’re fun.

Edit: Also, the fact that I’ve gotten my armor more easily doesn’t impede your fun. You can still keep doing the dungeon even after you no longer need tokens, for fun.

Well then this sentiment along with the projected problem as we have worded it is a far more agreeable approach than the Anet lied about grinding one.

What just happened is a well thought out problem and possible solution in an intelligent context.

I believe karma rewards should be boosted for reasons X, Y, Z because of evidence manifesto, but in a reasonable amount so as not to disturb balance of the hardcore and casual.

If I saw that as a post I’d agree all day with that. But stating that Anet lied when they certainly did not (even though you still feel they lied to you) comes off as hostile and warrants the same response.

Using logical vernacular doesn’t make you a logical person.

This entire thread you furthered your opinionated argument over a thread that originated as merely an assessment of intent vs the actual observation. Simply put, the OP just applied the Scientific Method, and you attempted to debunk him based on your opinions of what you would like the result to be.

For people to say “the grind is optional” is a cop-out, seeing that there are no alternatives for obtaining rewards.

For people to say “rewards aren’t what this game is about” is also a cop-out. If they’re so strongly apposed, why do they exist in every corner of the game?

There is no logical argument to be made against the percentage of the community asking that the devs replace the “grind” with something else that may be equally challenging.

Swagman.9013:

I say they delivered on the no grind is necessary promise, but players have interjected grind by making the gear that is meant for the more dedicated players (dungeon and karma) a necessity and not a prestige or badge of honor like it was meant to be.

It was my understanding that they never promised “grinding wasn’t necessary”, but that “grinding wasn’t going to exist, because we don’t believe in it”. In that regard, I was disappointed.

@Fayel

Please god no. That’s what Legendaries are for, so you have to grind for them, same with cultural weapons. I don’t get what people want form this game. You want a full armor set of exotics/ legendaries at lvl 80? You don’t need ot get the cultural, you don’t need ot get the legendaries, heck just play with blues/ greens. They don’t add much power, you can complete the game without problem with those. I personally love to go for the legendaries, because it’s a challenge. You can’t eliminate grind from an MMO, not with the current setup MMos follow at least.

Really? The very first reply post and you already failed to understand the OP’s intent; It wasn’t to give his opinions or suggest solutions, rather to break down the manifesto and identify whether or not it delivered based on observable facts.

@OP, well written post, I feel the same way about how the game was delivered.

deriver.5381:

Zen wants to make us believe that every single poster who complains about something has legit reasons for it.

Good try!

There are many who have… Yet many others who don’t. I’ve laughed at and agreed with complain posts here, two completely opposite reactions. Guess I’m just bipolar.

I present to you three threads I opened w/ the intent (logical arguments made) to promote positive improvements for the level 80 PvE experience – only to be abruptly met by skip-read flame war.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Why-endgame-PVE-feels-like-a-boring-standstill-and-what-can-be-done-to-fix-it/first

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/What-the-LFG-system-should-be/first

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/How-did-Dungeon-Grinding-survive-the-cut/first

There’s a strong difference between a negative post and a constructive post. Don’t get the two mixed up.

Suggesting change in a constructive tone is never negative. You can’t possible ask the devs to disregard all suggestions that aren’t bug related, because then the product will never move forward.

Of the posts I have read, there are two real majorities:

1. There are those players (most of which are under level 80) that don’t want the game to change and are claiming it to be just fine the way it is.

2. The players who are level 80 who are asking for a reasonable means to play challenging content.

Think about it, though. How much challenging content existed in the PvE world outside of dungeons? I’m pretty sure every DE I ran to (even those “epic chest dropping” battles) required very little strategy and only relied on how many warm bodies were around to mash their keyboards.

And when you finally get an opportunity to experience some real challenges in the dungeons, either

1. It is incredibly difficult to find a group to do it with.
2. It is far too expensive to run the dungeon and attempt to learn the strategies as a team (without detailed youtube videos).
3. The reward to complete the dungeon isn’t really appealing (rewards don’t have to be a progressive armor / weapon upgrades).
4. The dungeon content is just clearly broken.

So I’m sorry, but if we’re going to brush off constructive criticism as “negativity”, then please, remind me never to offer anyone of you a job on my development staff.

Ordika.9513:

Lance Coolee.9480:

@Ordika, Robot:

Speculating what business model works / doesn’t work is way out of our realm of responsibility as consumers, so arguing either point holds no bearing on the direction of the product. We don’t work for the company, we don’t have nearly enough data to prove what business direction they need to take (regardless of what experiences we’ve had in our professions).

The only thing we can do is state what does / doesn’t work for us (individually) about the product and even go so far as to suggest solutions to the problems the product presents.

If you’ve got an issue with the game, present it (along w/ what you would do to fix it) and discuss; but seriously, stop flooding forums w/ discussions over what the company needs / needs not to do to survive.

What if said consumer was a business analyst and is paid to do just that.

Then my response would be

1. Are you paid by ArenaNet?

And if not

2. How can you as a business analyst assume you have enough information of a company you have no relations with (regardless if the business philosophies mimic those of other companies) to decide what is a successful business direction or not.

3. How do you think that any of your discussion on the topic would even trigger an “AHA!” moment from ArenaNet on how they choose to drive their company?

I’m in product development; I take ZERO advice from outside opinions on HOW to run my company (because they haven’t a clue as to any of the business details, unless I hired them as a consultant, brought them in and provided them with enough information to make logical decisions). I do take TONS of advice from consumers who have suggestions on what we can do to improve the products they use.

If you want to argue something, make it about the product, not the business. That’s the only way you’ll be able to provide any VALID constructive feedback.

@Ordika, Robot:

Speculating what business model works / doesn’t work is way out of our realm of responsibility as consumers, so arguing either point holds no bearing on the direction of the product. We don’t work for the company, we don’t have nearly enough data to prove what business direction they need to take (regardless of what experiences we’ve had in our professions).

The only thing we can do is state what does / doesn’t work for us (individually) about the product and even go so far as to suggest solutions to the problems the product presents.

If you’ve got an issue with the game, present it (along w/ what you would do to fix it) and discuss; but seriously, stop flooding forums w/ discussions over what the company needs / needs not to do to survive.

This is also likely related to the missing forum options (edit / quote / delete / flag / +1), as these issues all appear to surface concurrently.

My guess – some web server in the rotation didn’t get updated w/ the latest version of the forum code.

Devildoc.6721:

if you eat a tenderloin steak every single day.. it stops tasting so good.

You’ve clearly never eaten at a Brazilian steakhouse.

Should you ever find yourself in the Philadelphia, PA area, might I recommend a place that would change your mind.

http://www.nabrasa.com/

I could eat there. Every. Single. Day.

I can’t get a handle on it, but some forum threads show relative times (5 min ago, 9 hrs ago), while some show what may be UTC time (Sept 25th dates).

Kana.6793:

Cameirus.8407:

that price is insane given how slow gold income is unless you metagame and play the TP…which you cant expect “normal” players to do.

Have patience.

It’s a long term goal prestige skin and most people who buy are going to be buying it because it looks special and different. If everyone has it after a few weeks then it loses it’s entire purpose.

I would have to agree. Besides, culture armor sets are a lot less like the dungeon armor sets. You have multiple paths to obtain it, as “mostly” everything you do in game can get you closer to being able to purchase that armor set.

If you’re feeling rather daring, there’s a sub-reddit for GW2 as well.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2

Hickeroar.9734:

Lance Coolee.9480:

I tried the other night to find a CoF story group and was blocked from map chat for posting too much (which I really didn’t feel was too much – once a minute maybe?)

sadface =(

You have to change the “nature” of what you’re typing. If you type LF1M or LFG multiple times, it will block you…but only for those types of message. I usually just change it up:

LF2M Arah SM
LF2M Arah SM
LF2M Arah SM <blocked>
Need two people for Arah storymode
Need two people for Arah storymode
Need two people for Arah storymode <blocked>

Good call, thanks!

@Wintyre:

I challenge you to give me one clear, thought out, logical reason why making the same “vanity plates” available through different means would negatively affect you and the community.

What I’m actively arguing against is the notion that what are essentially dungeon-running commemorative vanity plates be available to those who don’t do the dungeon runs.

Show me one post that suggested that. You’re arguing against a point that nobody made.

What I’m arguing to keep is the integrity of the game design and philosophy.

What philosophy is that? To keep the game entirely the same way from the moment it was pushed out the door? To restrict any and all constructive feed back? Go read some dev posts, they are LITTERED w/ ArenaNet employees explicitly asking that players bring them positive, constructive feedback to help them improve the game.

… not for seeking out rewards in and of themselves which basically turns everything in the game to a reward-centric game …

So riddle me this hot shot. If this game is soooo “fun-centric”, then why is there even a leveling system at all?

Go bananas.

Here are mine:

1. Remove leveling entirely! Leave the experience bar that gives you skill points every time it dings.

2. Allow bosses to be defeated in more than one way. Drilling their HP down to zero is old. Let us use the environment to our advantage! (Warning: WoW reference here) I LOVED the Karazhan chess event because it was TOTALLY different.

3. Remove gold as a currency (uh oh gold farmers!). I think kharma is a totally cool idea to obtain things from vendors. If we want to trade items, give us a system that lets us trade items for items only.

I tried the other night to find a CoF story group and was blocked from map chat for posting too much (which I really didn’t feel was too much – once a minute maybe?)

sadface =(

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

I have no intention of trying to get any of the hard-to get armors. I’ll probably never do a single dungeon in this game because I don’t enjoy dungeons.

You have got to be kidding me.

You have no plans on experiencing dungeon content, but you’ll actively forbid other players from finding ways to make it more enjoyable?

80 sylvari ele 7/10

Untouch.2541:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/GW2-is-Fun-Centric-not-Reward-Centric/page/2#post177548

Here’s one.

1. That was 5 days ago, and isn’t relevant to the direction the thread has taken.

2. He also makes no mention of gear “progression” at all. He talks about loot drops for cosmetic and profit purposes, but not for any purpose in improving his progressive stats.

Where in this thread do you see that?

@Untouch

I’m not asking for gear progression, I haven’t read any post asking for gear progression.

People are asking that more options be made available to allow people to obtain gear skins, and people are asking for more ways to connect them to the content and to reduce the “grindyness” of gameplay at level 80.

Greyfeld.7104:

Lance Coolee.9480:

Greyfeld.7104:

But this “solution” is very narrow-minded, because it assumes that dungeon rewards should be different from world rewards, and should be set apart specifically only for those who run the dungeons. The reality, however, is that gear progression should have multiple approaches, and the “path” you choose should be based on what you enjoy doing, not which armor set you want to end up with.

100% agreed. Why shouldn’t I be able to gain enough “game currency” to buy a dungeon set of armor by helping out in other areas of the game map? Granted, there should be some “challenging prerequisite” to being allowed to purchase the dungeon set, like proving my worth by completing all paths of the dungeon; but following me earning the right to purchase it, I shouldn’t have to continue to do any one of a very few list of options to actually obtain it.

I’m not even sure that single dungeon run should be required. In the proposal I’m making, these sets wouldn’t be “dungeon sets,” they’d simply be “exotic armor sets,” or whatever the hell you want to call them. Gear that is extremely costly to get ahold of, but can be purchased through time and effort expended in any part of the game you actually enjoy partaking in.

And with an equal amount of time spent doing any one of a number of different things to gain the currency to purchase them, other rewards should be granted as well. Skins, pets, minis, achievements, rare crafting materials, etc etc. It grants the best of both worlds: a token/currency system that eliminates the randomness previously associated with raiding, and random drops that still grant the “gambler’s success” adrenaline surge that many other people enjoy.

Well I think the argument here is that the devs would like to say that certain gear has a connection to the way it was obtained.

I really don’t know anyone who’d work to obtain a dungeon set simply for it’s stats – there are way simpler ways to get gear w/ those stats. It’s the appearance of the armor that demonstrates the player’s accomplishment.

We’re just advocating that there is a less “grindy” way to obtain the gear w/out having to remove it’s connective lore / achievement.

Token.6501:

Sometimes the devs do make changes that make the achievements easier; however unfair that may be to more established players. Just look at what they did in GW! Give it some more time, go away and come back to it if you have to.

If you are unfamiliar with GW history; there are two titles which used to be mutually exclusive. Legendary Survivor and Ledgendary Defender of Ascalon; one required you to avoid death well beyond level 20, and the other required you to die often before reaching level 20. They changed it so that anyone could get Legendary Survivor even if they’ed already died 100 times. And they added quests to Pre-Searing Ascalon which eliminated the need for death-leveling mobs. How was this fair to all those people who had already earned those titles the hard way?

[Warning, WoW reference here]

This isn’t the difference between obtaining the Winterspring Frostsaber before flying mounts were permitted and afterward in WoW. We’re a month into the game, why can’t we identify problems as early as possible in an attempt to rectify them w/ the least amount of resistance?

Besides, Mr Peters has already stated his opinion on that topic:

And not doing it is unfair to the game because it makes one of the more repeatable content types feel like more of a grind than it needs to. We weren’t going to release a perfect game, and can’t let things live this stop us from improving the experience for the majority of the players.

Jon

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Dungeon-Tokens-Account-Bound-please/first#post219199

SirMoogie.9263:

Derpinator.2894:

But again, maybe I’m missing something on the other end. Maybe if everybody does only what they like to do, and can get the rewards they want it breaks the game somehow?

I’m feeling really dense here to be honest. I know I’m missing something; I just don’t know what…

I agree with you, but I just trying to help you understand why. The dungeon armor is for people… well… people like this:

Malediktus.9250:

Giving more tokens or reducing the price is unfair to those people who already played dozens of dungeons and maybe even bought gear for those tokens.

Personally, I think that if you’ve performed some great feat you can advertise it through achievement or just saying so. However, I think I may be in the minority when it comes to this. I think most people want something tangible to show it. Not just a title or achievement, but things that show status or grant special power (like better stats or abilities).

We should just make special achievements for those guys. Or even just titles.

IE:

Sir Moogie
<That guy who shown enough bearing and perseverance to kill Giganticus Lupicus 50 times!>

That’s right, all hail “that guy”.