Guild Wars 2

I hope you know your grammer makes it difficult to understand what you’re trying to say…or to take it seriously anymore, for that matter.

sostronk.8167:

Leo G.4501:

sostronk.8167:

SynfulChaot.3169:

sostronk.8167:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Speed runs require everyone to be at peak performance. Everyone can agree on that. A sub-80 can run dungeons just fine, but they will not be setting speed records, which speed runs attempt to do.

The complaint is not that sub-80s are being excluded from speed runs. It is that they are being excluded from any runs. If you are straightforward beforehand that you are doing a 80-only speed run, then you are not being elitist. If you are excluding them from any time you do a dungeon then yes, elitist.

Oh ok so you understand it will take a sub 80 longer to run a dungeon than an 80. Thats kind of the whole thing. I can only do dungeons so many times before I just want to do a quick run and get my tokens/gear/rewards. A sub 80 will slow down this process so I guess thats not such a bad thing for me to not want a player to slow down my game?

The difference in time of a straight run between equally skilled players is minimal enough to not be very noticable. With a speed run, though, where much content is skipped and avoided where it can be, every little bit, every little second helps. Many speed runs are not only level 80 only, but restricted to particular classes geared particular ways. In a speed run, that is acceptable. Extending those restrictions outside of speed runs is not.

Ah ok. So in this case, all I have to do to not be an elitist is type “speed run” and im clear of your condemnation. Easily done.

Are you sure? If you’re not linking gear, excluding professions, etc to optimize your speed run, then you’re nothing but a nub speed run. You okay with being labled an inefficient n00b?

I was thinking about using a word like “Fast run”. But I don’t know. The impression I got from synful was you just had to type “speed run” and then you were exempt from having to play with sub 80s without being labelled an elitist.

Well there is no inbetween, you know. You’re either a leecher nub that has to be carried, or an elitist jerk that isn’t capable of running a dungeon without being carried by all 80s…at least that’s how the circular argument goes.

But the point I keep commenting on is, the difference in stats between a lvl 80 and an on-level character inside a downscaled instance is mild-to-minimum when it was tested….4 months ago. As of less than a month ago, another change was added to decrease this difference further. To what degree is still unknown.

-Points back to his previous posts-

Have you read them? I doubt it.

sostronk.8167:

SynfulChaot.3169:

sostronk.8167:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Speed runs require everyone to be at peak performance. Everyone can agree on that. A sub-80 can run dungeons just fine, but they will not be setting speed records, which speed runs attempt to do.

The complaint is not that sub-80s are being excluded from speed runs. It is that they are being excluded from any runs. If you are straightforward beforehand that you are doing a 80-only speed run, then you are not being elitist. If you are excluding them from any time you do a dungeon then yes, elitist.

Oh ok so you understand it will take a sub 80 longer to run a dungeon than an 80. Thats kind of the whole thing. I can only do dungeons so many times before I just want to do a quick run and get my tokens/gear/rewards. A sub 80 will slow down this process so I guess thats not such a bad thing for me to not want a player to slow down my game?

The difference in time of a straight run between equally skilled players is minimal enough to not be very noticable. With a speed run, though, where much content is skipped and avoided where it can be, every little bit, every little second helps. Many speed runs are not only level 80 only, but restricted to particular classes geared particular ways. In a speed run, that is acceptable. Extending those restrictions outside of speed runs is not.

Ah ok. So in this case, all I have to do to not be an elitist is type “speed run” and im clear of your condemnation. Easily done.

Are you sure? If you’re not linking gear, excluding professions, etc to optimize your speed run, then you’re nothing but a nub speed run. You okay with being labled an inefficient n00b?

Well the best thing would be to simply ignore posts like his. All it does is circle around the point. No one is providing evidence that it’s faster or slower, if you hit harder or weaker, or if it’s all the same. Going on hearsay just perpetuates ignorance so the thread is just better off closed.

IMO, the amount of comments and reads is proof enough that the subject is controversial enough not to simply dismiss. So the point is already made whether those plugging their ears feel the issue is simple to dismiss or not.

Sergoros.4398:

GabGar.4962:

Seriously all those “elitists” (I prefer call them bad and unskilled players) looking for all 80s for AC, you should be ashamed, period, learn to play guys.

U should be ashamed of your inability to read counterarguments and just keeping your line, when fault of it was proven many times.

Or maybe this is the definition of troll. Accusing of not being able to read when he himself refuses/is incapable of…

Sergoros.4398:

Getting to level 80 is not some magical gate to learning. Learning a dungeon takes running the dungeon. Nothing more and nothing less.
Learning the dungeon is one thing. Most likely, (dont forget, that player is a newbie and still learning, and cause of it he would allways miss some parts) after 2-3 runs, he would learn most of the dungeon. But to learn, how he can maximise his efficiency in this dungeon is another thing. he would need to try some skills and utilitys. Change his weapons. Try and retry all the traits (and every 5 levels he would get a new one). And etc and etc. Thats a lot to learn. He would understand His Own Class only at 80 lvl, when some time passes, and he would finaly find his “perfect build”. Only then he would be full fledged player. Before that, he is just a child among adults.

And this is the definition of a troll, right down to the incomprehensible grammar. There’s really no point in discussing anything with him, he’s literally trying to bait you with exaggerated condescending remarks such as referring players to adults and children…I guess to make the 13 year olds that play the game feel superior for some reason.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Ok. I thought I had linked this enough, but I guess not.

Here we go. Please follow the links here and here for information on Dynamic Level Adjustment and how it works.

Trolls don’t read. I mean, they can barely write English and comprehending is just out of the question. I doubt anyone has actually read anything in those links, let alone clicked them.

Sticks.9374:

No I am not saying this. I am saying basically that I have ran with sub 80s (CoF excluded because 75 is basically close enough)and I am done. If they changed stuff some more, then I would try again but as it stands now I am done. When I referenced people in the post before I was speaking of people in the forums, not the devs.

Well the theoretical I mentioned may or may not be true. That is, before, the amount of difference between an 80 and non-80 character was quite miniscule if they were both geared similarly. But there has been a change less than a month ago and no one knows anything about how it actually changed things. That’s the main reason I’m even continuing to comment on this. People acting out of ignorance is always a travesty and as a human being you should know that.

I am far more open to the idea of change and making it better to do this. Far more open to it than you are to see things from my perspective. Maybe that’s a bigger problem than stupid dungeons in a game.

Funny that, I’m actually in your same perspective. I don’t even have any non-80 characters so me ‘fighting’ for the rights of non-80s to team would be me looking past my own perspective as a person that mainly only teams with lvl 80 players. But I’m not even fighting, I’m just making it known that misconceptions are present. What you think is a big difference isn’t.

If you want to take sub 80s, go ahead just leave me out of it.

Again, if you’ve read my posts, I don’t care who you group with. If you want to exclude non-80 characters from your groups that’s your preparative, if you want to kick any engineers that ask to join that’s your preference, if you think anything but greatsword warrior isn’t worth your time then that is your choice.

I’m trying to speak of the big picture though. It’s a cycle of what is in my opinion, destructive. The way people see dungeons as portrayed by the people ‘farming’ them, it’s not okay to play these instances at their proper levels, that it’s ‘harder’ to do them on the level or even impossible. Or how about that no one has attacked the people that swap out their lvl 80 and jump on a low level to get the rewards? I’m sure if a dev could comment on that, they’d express how cheap it is and how bad it makes them feel that people have to exploit parts of the game to get by when it’s definitely not necessary.

How can you even sit there and accept people pulling that crap but it’s apparently wrong to just play the game straight or that it in some way punishes people that team with players that do play the game straight?

Even little things, like how people refer to characters that aren’t level 80 as ‘sub-80’ while also describing their capabilities as sub-standard? It all comes with a venomous undertone that just makes your stance unsteady as time passes. If it’s not okay to play dungeons until 80, people grind until they are. Then when they get into those dungeons, they have no idea what they’re doing or how to play the profession. They gain some understanding but feel cheated because it’s not ‘easy’ like they were promised. They get jaded because they have to grind tokens for gear so they aren’t below the standard of their level and then they pass this crap on to others who want to learn how to play their class now and learn the content then. They kick ‘nubs’ for leeching while they themselves leech off of people who have their exotics and know what the content.

All in all, this whole misconception about capabilities to run dungeons just creates standard that lessens how many people will run dungeons as a whole. The ‘leeching’, ‘carrying’ etc nonsense is beyond ignorant but I’d be lying if I’d say I’m at a loss for words by it.

Sergoros.4398:

Weapons. Not traits. In example. Weapon traits give u lower cd. Clone trait gives u less cd on clones. Warden reflection doubles the dmg of any projectile i reflect with warden.
Healing mantras giving u ability to heal allys. And etc and etc. Wy should i even mention it? Like someone said… l2p and know it yourself

Ah yes, the weapon traits. Granted lower cooldown on things like the Prestige or Chaos Storm is nice, it’s hardly a trait someone needs to be able to swap to that weapon and use it for what effects it has. I was unaware Warden’s Feedback had any effect on the damage reflected projectiles had, besides retaliation, I thought it just made things reflected. However, if such a trait is pivotal, it’s only a Master trait and can be obtained by a lvl 35 character. Healing mantras, on the other hand, are a gimmick at best.

There are a few traits for mesmer that really turn their effects up, but they are hardly going to net you so much of a difference that a lvl 80 mesmer will completely overshadow.

Sticks.9374:

I agree that what you said here is a good example of elitism. Not bringing sub 80s to dungeons is not in fact elitism. And you can quote all the level 80’s you have and thousands of hours you have played at me you want. If someone keeps telling me that a wall is red and they show me diagrams and quote threads and go on and on and on about how this wall is red and I keep looking at it and seeing a blue wall(MY experience) I don’t care how many times you say it because MY experience has shown something else. I will do a dungeon with anyone of any class even if they are new to it but every time I have done with a sub 80 EVERY KITTEN TIME it’s ended badly so sorry sir, for me at least the wall is blue. Label me an elitist in ignorance if you want but I am one of the nicest, friendliest, social, and helpful people in game and I refuse to do it.

So theoretically speaking, the devs could outright patch the game and tell you straight out that they’re making level 80s weaker in downscaled dungeons than appropriately level players in lower level instances and you’d still put corn cobs in your ears and go on thinking what you want?

Sergoros.4398:

Then u not using your char at his 100%. Most likely u even one of this true heroes who goes in melee and then 1-1-1-1-1. Yep. This guys wont notice any difference. Im playing mesmer and allways change my traits depending on boss. Need range? Pistols. Need melee? Focus. Long range fight with probable casualitys? Mantras. Need reflect? Warden reflection. And etc and etc. I can change to glamours. I can change to signets distortion. So much flexibility. How can u even compare it to wooden mesmer of 35 lvl?

None of what you just mentioned is trait specific and yet you’re attacking me because you think I don’t swap traits? A lvl 35 mesmer can swap in any of those weapons and any of those skills for whatever circumstance you just outlined.

Now try again. You’re getting closer to the meat of the difference though.

Sergoros.4398:

Traits. Im talking about traits. Any players, that plays at 100% of his char would tell ya, that traits is vital to his char. With just 1 trait i can double my dmg against 1 enemy. And this is just 1 trait. And this 35 lvl lack not only 1 trait. He lacks 2 branches of the whole trait tree.

Alright, now what trait is that? You can describe what quantitative value you get from it, but the truth is in the application.

Imrazir.3075:

Is it my fault I did not want to be like everyone else and play a warrior. I kind of feel like all the time and effort I put into getting my theif to level 80 was a waste. To even play the game sometimes I feel like I need to go make a zerk warrior.

And just think, those same people that will kick you for that also want you to go out of your way to level up to 80 so they can reject you then.

IMO, there are just so many things wrong with people’s expectations, and it’s so warped and crooked, they can’t even explain why they have such expectations in the first place except that they ‘believe’ these false expectations to be true.

sostronk.8167:

Call me what you like. Ive already explained I levelled to 80 without wasting anyone elses time. Meanwhile I think its pretty selfish for others to expect me to carry them and waste my time. Ive put alot of hours into the game. Its brutally obvious to anyone who has also put alot of hours into the game that being an 80 in a dungeon is alot easier than doing it in lower levels.

And this is false. Again, I’ve actually done it. I’ve experienced it. You haven’t. What you think is true is not. It’s your preference, sure, but it is false that dungeons are a lot easier just because you’re level 80. They are a lot easier when you’ve experienced the content and know the profession, yes, but not because of that artificial level which is downscaled by your gear.

And it gets even worse if you use crit damage gear, because the extra stat on your gear will amount to next to nothing when downscaled past a point and yet, berserker gear is quite popular among speed runners.

DeathPanel.8362:

Wrong. Fractals IS a dungeon instance no matter how you try to twist it.

No one ever said good gear guarantees success. You just came up with that strawman by yourself.

In fact it was yourself that said fractals took good gear originally and I was just pointing out that you agreed with my point by saying that.

Dungeons are Dungeons and Fractals are Fractals. I don’t know anyone else who plays fractals at the various levels who equate the two as the same. They have differing set-ups and rewards people have different expectations for each.

But regardless if they are the same or not, how does this change any of this in relation to anything being like a job interview and needing specific qualifications to participate? They haven’t the same needs.

IndigoSundown.5419:

For the sake of discussion, let’s say your hypothesis is spot on. Let’s also assume that hypothetical group A is looking for one more 80. They get one, and don’t ask him to link gear. Your hypothesis is that they may be losing out if that 80 is under-geared. However, if they aren’t asking for gear link, there is also no guarantee that a sub-80 would be geared as well as could be, either. With an 80, there’s the chance of your 10-15% more efficiency. What is the upside for a group that has some interest in speed/efficiency of taking a sub-80 character? If there is one, does it trump the upside of that potential 10-15%?

This is why I believe more testing is required but I haven’t the resources to accomplish such tests. Obviously dynamic level scaling has a curve otherwise once you surpass the minimum requirements, you’re up a creek until you can equip lvl 80 exotics. This isn’t the case.

So how much of a curve is it? I’d assume, the higher level you go, the steeper the curve until it peaks at lvl 80 where you need exotic armor to surpass that gap. Considering that exotic equipment is only available after lvl 60, this would mean it is far easier to be optimally equipped before that since masterwork equipment is cheap and the amount of difference in strength between masterwork and rare is only 10% (masterwork is 135% stat strength while rare is 145% stat strength) vs the difference in strength between rare and exotic being 20%.

So for example, a lvl 55 character can easily be in masterwork gear for pennies and yet it may be quite hard for a lvl 77 character to have the best equipment for their level because exotics at that point can be pricy and yet they will be obsolete very quickly…and yet I’d bet you would look at that lvl 77 and just say ‘close enough’ while passing over someone closer to the dungeon’s level, right?

AFAIK, sandstorm never blinded/bleed every second but every 3 seconds but I’m probably wrong. It seems to bleed every second…but I’m not that experienced with the skill, my glyph build is probably about a month old.

Message me in game if you want to run a dungeon. I like doing SE and the armor is pretty nifty looking.

Sticks.9374:

No we do play the same game, and I do and I get what you are saying. But it feels like you re implying that I MUST DO THIS IT IS THE ONLY WAY………and I’m sorry that I feel differently than you do, but I do. And this is coming from someone who goes out of his way to help people in map chat in whatever zone I am in with whatever anyone needs. I’m the first to run to an obscure SP and help someone get it for no other reason than to help.

So yes I do play the same game you do, I just have nothing but bad experiences with people leveling in dungeons so I PREFER not to do it, and how dare you imply that I am wrong because of it. AND HOW DARE you imply that I would ever ask a lowbie to help me farm ectos, no sir do that just fine on my own thanks

I’d DARE to imply so because you’re stating your preference under a FALSE pretense. Basically, you’re spreading a lie. Now if you prefer not to team with non-80s because of past experiences with them, then state as such. Don’t, however, state that it has anything to do with ‘carrying’ someone as if you yourself are flawless, perfect and some sort of pro that could solo the content.

checks messages

Nope, as far as I know, you are not one of those that solos the various dungeons so yeah, it’s safe to say you are indeed not carrying non-80 characters through your dungeons runs unless they are newbs to that particular instance.

Sergoros.4398:

This difference is huge.

It is not.

I say it’s not because I’ve actually leveled multiple characters through dungeons and the difference is always minute.

DeathPanel.8362:

Wrong, you have yet to show how my analogy fails. Just like a job some don’t require a degree or experience like how some dungeons don’t require lvl 80s or good gear just like on the other hand some jobs do and some dungeons require 80 and good gear.

You have admitted yourself fractals require good gear, therefore you just admitted my statement regarding some dungeons requiring good gear was valid.

The only fail here is is your attempt at discrediting my statements.

Fractals are not dungeons. Dungeons are meant to be completed with effort. Fractals are gated. You can’t even succeed in higher level fractals AT ALL without rez tricks like revive orbs. Not even perfect (currently) gear will spell success there.

Your analogy is off because this is a game. Expecting requirements like one would for a job only holds water if you’re looking past the fact you’re playing for fun. Nothing hangs in the balance if you did well as this is all virtual. If your time is so precious that you’re forced to min/max a game to even experience it, I’d suggest prioritizing your time better or your life as an MMO game should probably not have a place in it. There’s nothing wrong with Sudoku or other quick puzzle games.

DeathPanel.8362:

The poster you responded to made it clear from his experience having subleveled players in dungeon runs has not turned out well, and I tend to agree in general it does not.

The same can be true for only-80 dungeons. My experience with them mostly (the ones that actually request only 80s) are full of people crying “STACK HERE!” “SKIP THAT!” “CHEAT THIS!” “CHEAT THAT!” whining for you to do exactly what they say even if it’s unecessary (seriously, you can’t pull the Dredge guy’s minions away to fight? You have to stack in some spot to all get 1-shotted when some goof aggroes the boss?)

Even if the run goes somewhat timely, it’s not so much faster that I’d want to do it again, nor is it enough to have to put up with the whining and drama when someone steps out of line and is kicked (the second people start to get kicked for stupid kitten, I drop) and it will NEVER be worth my time to subject myself to exploit after exploit.

The game’s exp dungeons are setup to penalize teams with sub level players, much more so now after the wp patch than ever. This is a simple fact you either accept or don’t, but it doesn’t change that fact.

False. If anything, sub-lvl 80 characters aren’t penalized at all if they are the correct level while higher levels are penalized heavily in stats where the game expects you to have exotic-everything to make up the penalty to pull out ahead.

IndigoSundown.5419:

There is a perceived difference in efficiency between a geared 80 and a geared low level. I don’t see how debating the actual difference in efficiency (or lack thereof) is relevant. A few people throwing numbers around in a thread are not going to convince anyone they are “doing it wrong.” It’s a group’s prerogative to limit their group composition. It’s not our prerogative to tell them not to.

Devil’s advocate questions to those saying the difference is quite small and matters only for speed running. How do you know that every group asking for 80’s-only is not looking for the best speed possible through the dungeon? Who gets to decide what their goals are and how achieving those goals is best accomplished, if not the members of those groups?

Just stating my opinion, again I don’t care how people group or decide to make their teams. The only point I want to put to rest is the quantitative difference between someone down-leveled and someone appropriately level for that instance.

It would help bring about just how much of a difference people are going out of their way to exclude people for. My hypothesis though, is it’s probably 10-15% (just a guesstimate ratio) more efficient to have full 80s all with best gear possible but possibly less if people have rares/masterwork trinkets or whatever. It’s 25-40% more efficient if that group is optimized for speed which would require more exclusions of class/build.

In all likely hood, even if it’s a speed run, unless you’re forcing people to link their gear/build rather than just making sure they’re all lvl 80s and nothing more, you’re breaking even or possibly even weakening yourself if that 80 isn’t in at least rares. Lower levels have less of a penalty to make up for in gear than 80s.

Basically, the only way ‘only 80s’ is more efficient is if you’re going the full elitist mile and making sure people have the most optimized gear possible.

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

Yeah, you are pretty much whining… people who want a 80 only grp, wants as much to the table as they themselves bring, and no they are under the “illusion” that a all 80 group has a higher chance of sucsess not to mention it is likely to go considerably faster. A “illusion” that is spot on i might add.

This is false. The only exception is the super-733tz groups that will enforce specific gear, specific trait set-ups, specific team compositions, etc. Otherwise, you have no idea what a player is equipped with, what traits they are using/not using and how overall effective they are. Basically, the illusion is not only an illusion, it’s a placebo for the majority of circumstances except for the mentioned exceptions.

Not to mention triple stat items are not availible at 35, another big diffrence.

I’d try to quantify that then, if I were you. Start with an example and explain the effect of missing these traits on effectiveness and efficiency.

Try to finish cof1 being the most tested, at lvl 75 or even 79 in Yellows
We’ll have much data to compare in temr of speed (both for speeruns than kill everything runs)

Perhaps the other exception is, if you’re anything but a Mesmer, Thief or Warrior then? If you’re a guardian, necromancer, elementalist, etc, then you have no business speed running anything because you aren’t efficient.

Kilrain Daggerspine.6843:

I am however argueing that a full 80 group has a far high sucsess potential, and a full 80 group with skilled players will be considerably quicker then a non 80 group with skilled players.

This has yet to be proven because the opposition has never used level appropriate characters in dungeons. I’d argue the opposite with the aforementioned exceptions. My only base to compare is, leveling in various groups with mixed levels with no 80s and all 80s including myself, there was no large margin in their average. You will still run in all 80 groups that take forever in AC or SE while you will still have mixed lvl groups speedily handle AC in 20-25min (can’t say I’ve had a non-80 group in SE that I can remember because no one runs that dungeon).

Like It or not this mmo like most other rpg games are about numbers, and the numbers simply are not in favour of your logic.

With the data provided so far, you haven’t the evidence to prove that the numbers are even in your favor.

lekyii.9856:

If you have a party of full 80 you have more stats that a party with 30s

I am one of those ppl that only want lvl 80.

You can do Fractals at lvl 1 but no one does it why??

Because the money to be made in fractals is low? Although I don’t sell my ectos, you cannot sell the rares/exotics you get from it and the dungeon has no exotic armor/weapons that you can buy with free tokens like other dungeons. I think my last couple weeks running fractals only, I’ve made a grand total of 8 gold (got rings and a back piece though, but that doesn’t fund crafting, repairs, armor, etc as well as dungeons do).

If more suspicious bushes are added, some simple dialog would go a long way…

“Some privacy, please?”

“Give me a minute…two minutes.”

“That smell? Wasn’t me…”

“Go find your own bush! This one’s ours.”

And don’t show who’s inside, just have random voices so we can just imagine if they are a Norn, Asura, Human, etc doing something in there :P

What if they cut all bleed base duration by 50% and improved the tic speed to compensate =ing the same amount of damage just faster but the difficulty of keeping stacks maxed is multiple times more difficult?

CoE path 3 and Arah path 4 :P

sostronk.8167:

Leo G.4501:

sostronk.8167:

Leo G.4501:

sostronk.8167:

Quite the opposite. Im talking about the difference between a level 11 and the same character at level 80 being scaled down to level 11.

What are you talking about? You mentioned Jade Maw and Shaman in Fractals, doing 100 dmg to them but when you got 80, doing 1000 damage more.

Don’t believe I understand what you’re talking about because your level 80 character will not be downscaled to level 11 when fighting Jade Maw or Shaman.

OH! Im talking about the Frozen Maw chain in Wayfarer.

Well what was the time difference? When was the thief being level that you’re comparing it too? What factors were involved during either fight? Were others applying vulnerability? Were might stacks involved? AFAIK, using some of my weapons in the same range on my lvl 80 elementalist, I’m hitting for around 200-400.

Most of the time he has full vulnerability stacks on him. As in from the 1000 odd times ive done it, he has full stacks of vulnerability on him for the duration of the event. I personally put on about 15 stacks of vulnerability as part of my pre damage output before I do the 3 burst skill, or less if hes already at max cap. Might varies. Its not this, ive already taken it into consideration. 6 stacks of might, last I have checked, doesn’t increase damage output buy over 1000%. The claim that downscaling is working is completely false. It might have made it a little closer recently, I agree, but it was already so much easier to do events and dungeons on an 80 than it was on a low level char.

There’s lots of factors involved though, like what were the factors when your thief was lvl 11? When was this? Was there any major updates to professions between that time and now? As for how easy or hard events are for lvl 80s/non-80s, familiarity with the profession also plays a role. How good were you with a thief back then? Have you optimized your rotation? Also remember, we’re talking about a level 11 character with 1-stat aspect gear and 1 trait point and minimal utilities. There aren’t any lvl 11 instances AFAIK. Dungeons start at level 30 which gives at least 20 skill points and up to 2 traits/2minor traits.

There’s a lot of factors involved and I’d prefer to go on hard numbers rather than just what you vaguely remembered at some point in time…

kamikaze kane.1063:

for all those people still claiming its because gear, etc, etc, there have been people who’ve tested this. Basically, you’re all being ignorant on the matter who don’t know what they’re talking about

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Level-80s-down-scaling-pugging-and-finding-a-group-for-lower-level-dungeons

as 1 example and this was done 4 months ago BEFORE the last patch. All you people gotta stop getting the idea in your head that you HAVE to be lvl 80 to have a fast and efficient run.

Thanks, I’ll give this a read.

sostronk.8167:

Leo G.4501:

sostronk.8167:

Quite the opposite. Im talking about the difference between a level 11 and the same character at level 80 being scaled down to level 11.

What are you talking about? You mentioned Jade Maw and Shaman in Fractals, doing 100 dmg to them but when you got 80, doing 1000 damage more.

Don’t believe I understand what you’re talking about because your level 80 character will not be downscaled to level 11 when fighting Jade Maw or Shaman.

OH! Im talking about the Frozen Maw chain in Wayfarer.

Well what was the time difference? When was the thief being level that you’re comparing it too? What factors were involved during either fight? Were others applying vulnerability? Were might stacks involved? AFAIK, using some of my weapons in the same range on my lvl 80 elementalist, I’m hitting for around 200-400.

sostronk.8167:

Quite the opposite. Im talking about the difference between a level 11 and the same character at level 80 being scaled down to level 11.

What are you talking about? You mentioned Jade Maw and Shaman in Fractals, doing 100 dmg to them but when you got 80, doing 1000 damage more.

Don’t believe I understand what you’re talking about because your level 80 character will not be downscaled to level 11 when fighting Jade Maw or Shaman.

Beardmonger.4692:

Asura’s Pain Inverter could be potentially useful.

But beware! For some reason 1 hand sword’s burst and off hand axe’s 5 skill are bugged on Asuras. Half the hits don’t actually land.

Wow, really? I kind of found it odd that he swung the blade constantly but didn’t actually see any numbers from the hits…just whiffing. I thought that’s just how it worked because I’d still get the bleed/immobilize.

But yes, in PvE, a condition Warrior is quite possible with Sword + Longbow. If you’re not scrounging for utilities, Pain Inverter (30sec), Radiation Field (60sec/15sec duration), Longbow burst and Sword burst cover your Confuse, Poison, Burning and Bleeding conditions for max potential.

Regardless, Radiation Field is a great utility as it can provide decent defense with its constant reapplication of Weakness (combined with Hammer) will make you and your team pretty tanky.

The Charr utilities….I can’t say I use them much. But that leaves you room for other good utilities instead.

sostronk.8167:

Are you high? You bring up downscaling, I talk about downscaling, then you tell me downscaling is not equal to upscaling…

Dungeons downscale all players to the appropriate level. Fractals upscale you to the required levels.

The way it was described is upscaled players will be made stronger and downscaled players would be made weaker.

Another test needs to be done because they are 2 different effects. We’re talking about the majority of dungeons that will dowsnscale a player’s stats to 45, 65, etc and the amount of difference between someone closer to that range and someone from 80 being scaled down to that range.

You’re talking about a low level being scaled UP in strength and, if what you describe is true, it won’t make you equivalent to someone who has access to all their gear’s stats…but when you’re downscaled, you don’t have the same access.

Two different things.

I’m an owner of both a Charr and Asura warrior. I like the Asura because I can RP him as more of a macho-Asura but still studious and smart. I like the Charr because, well, I dunno…he’s smexy? But so is the Asura, so yeah…

I made my decisions solely on the fact that a Charr looks stupidly goofy swinging around a Greatsword while an Asura looks awesome jumping, spinning and flipping (Hammer) using a Greatsword. Alternatively, the Asura looks dainty spinning around using Axes but the Charr looks bad-kitten when he buckles down for his whirlwinds of death.

I make them both expose their abs for the amusement of whomever they team with :P

That’s obviously a mechanical issue.

Why it can’t just be the weapon swap bind? Because other players can swap weapons which puts the swap on cooldown (10 seconds). If you could pick up any weapon (talking environmental weapons/objects too) but swapping would essentially lock you out of one of your weapons because you can’t drop them, this is unintuitive and will cause problems.

I’m actually with the people that said conjures are actually pretty decent…they’re just very different and will feel clunky to someone who doesn’t normally use them. Improvements to them can be made, but I say that namely because do take the slot of another utility.

To really make a balancing decision on the efficiency of conjures, I think their skills/stat buffs should be compared to what could be in their place. I already mentioned why I don’t like using conjures and it’s mainly about a feeling that the charges make me want to actually keep holding them until most of the charges are gone. Dropping them after only 1/2 skills feels a bit like a waste…

Honestly, I don’t give a kitten who you team with, sostronk. But I would like to put some light on obvious misconceptions people have with dungeons and how they are ran.

The least one can do is learn something from people attempting to spread knowledge.

Diviner.7405:

There is a difference between spending some money on gear and spending money on gear to always be best gear. If you want to be in best gear at every single level possible, you are going to have spend more money then it would take to just max yourself via crafting and having the best gear at lvl 80. Therefore, it is (we will use your word here as you think word choice is oh so important) inefficient to do this. As this thread is all about efficiency, being inefficient is effectively being illogical.

Don’t see how it’s inefficient. You do realize gear quality improves its longevity, yes? Like, level 35 exotic gear is about equivalent to lvl 40 masterwork and lvl 45 fine. Since gear comes in ‘ranges’, all you have to do is buy masterwork when it’s available and you’d more than easily keep up since masterwork gear costs upwards of 5 or so silver per piece. Or you can just spend 20-50 silver on exotic which won’t be replaceable by any equivalent gear until 10-15 levels later. As the stat difference between masterwork and exotics of 15 levels below it may have a difference of 1-3 stat points and 5-10 armor, the only real decision you have to make between longer lasting exotic and equivalent level masterwork is availability of runes and sigils.

Or if you have higher level alts that don’t mind crafting the exotics, like I do, It isn’t difficult to keep your gear up to date for practically no cost at all.

Therefore, a lvl 35 with best gear will never exist because it would inefficient to do so. This thread is about being as efficient as possible. If you are trying to work inefficiency into your argument, then you have already lost the argument.

…this argument is kind of wierd. You’re comparing the efficiency of a group dungeon run to the efficiency of keeping 1 extra set of gear on you? Well I keep at least 1 set of extra gear on my 80s too in case I want to swap to a different build so wouldn’t that balance out?

Anyway, thanks to the people that are looking into the level scaling stat issue. I’d presume, since runes aren’t quite affected by the downscaling (at least that’s what that link said) the difference is indeed there, but that can easily be balanced by better play.

My point, about the whole efficiency argument, is for my play in this game, it’s more efficient to do content that rewards you better (dungeons) for funds toward that character as they grow/when they reach their peak than it is to only do open world, getting less reward and leveling slower. Whatever stat/efficiency gap there may be as a lower lvl character growing inside dungeons is balanced out by the lack of good gear/knowledge/capability you’d have once you reach level 80 and must grind for those things. Basically, you can wait until 80 to get that stuff, or already have it waiting for you. This goes hand-in-hand with those talking about needing to get dungeons done quick because their time is precious. Rather than separating the level grind and the gear grind, you can just combine them and save yourself a heck of alot of time [EDIT] and STILL be practically even with those that took the other path.

I wish I had a low level anything because all my alts are 80 and I don’t have a desire to level up anything unless a new profession, a new weapon or a new race crops up. I’m generally curious about the difference in raw stats as I’m still sure a scaled down 80 should have at least an advantage from more robust stats from his tri-aspect equipment vs someone pre 60 with only duo-aspect equipment.

laokoko.7403:

All I’m saying is there is a stats different between a level35 and level80, and the difference is actually quite large.

Can we have that quantified, please?

I’d like to get a general estimate at the difference of this deciding factor. For all I know, it may be a hundred or so attack and little else…or it could be a huge gap…I dunno.

And to the previous person if you don’t know there is a stats difference and the stats difference is actually quite large, it makes me think you arn’t very experienced.

The reason I’m asking is because someone has presented evidence that, no, the difference isn’t ‘quite large’. Also, it lines up with the changes recently made as quoted in this thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-January-28-2013/first#post1336820

Dynamic Leveling

Attribute calculations for dynamic level scaling have been rebalanced. In general, this means weaker when adjusted down, stronger when adjusted up. Rewards when adjusted down have been increased to compensate. It is now possible to receive your own level of loot from any level of enemy.

That change was implemented on the 28th and is quite possible people have not fully discussed what this means, effectiveness wise.

laokoko.7403:

And judging by your comment saying “they will do a bit less damage”, I can honestly say you must not be very experienced and skilled else you’ll know the difference is actaully quite huge.

Is this coming from someone who actually did the dungeons to level up? Or from someone that tried AC exp once at lvl 35, deemed it hard and waited till lvl 80 to try again?

My solution to this problem? Allow people to wp back during combat…but the WPs have a cage that locks you inside them that only disappears when all players are out of combat.

Now, you can /dance if you’re in a group that doesn’t rez.

Isslair.4908:

SynfulChaot.3169:

By saying this you are saying that all sub-80 are unskilled and cannot hold their own. That is patently untrue. Can they do as much as a optimally traited and exotic geared version that knows what they are doing? No, they cannot. But a skilled player on a sub-80 can still contribute greatly provided they know what they are doing.

But the thing is – if they’re skilled, they will do more on their lvl 80-s then on their low levels. If they’re not skilled they’ll have more margin of error on lvl 80 in full exotics.

It’s very simple logic.

Prove this, please.

Maylojager.1307:

According to dear posters in this subforum it is implied that everyone lower than 80 level or with magic find gear is a super-paid-tourney-skill-level player and anyone of level 80 is an utter fail that needs to learn 2 play and in a party with sub 80s – is being carried by those pure skill baddies.

Okay, can someone define ‘carried’ in this context? Are you implying damage/survivability? Because apparently that’s up for debate. The way levels scale, apparently they are on close enough footing that only experience/skill and master/grandmaster traits and food are the difference…and the majority of the time people don’t even use food.

Basically, unless it’s proven, I can’t accept that gear is the deciding factor.

Easy content is not an excuse to slack off, it is a possibility to breeze through it even faster. Why should the one who is seeking the process optimization (all 80 only in this case) sacrifice his/her own effectiveness and time by taking a suboptimal player. Stop the “good enough” propaganda upon the whole player base, do as you wish in your own group/guild, but spare players who are seeking efficiency of your suboptimal ways.

Easy content or not, I feel farming is a whole other debate. If you’re farming a dungeon for optimal speed/time, I concede that using non-80s may add time to every encounter…but not every team seeking only 80s are farming for speed. What other purpose would you be primarily seeking only lvl 80s for? Prove that, if you level in dungeons, you’ll be carried when an 80 props up.

As far as I can see, you’re using this whole ‘carry’ argument as a strawman to give purpose to those exclusive member seekers when the majority of the time it doesn’t matter.

The way you guys put conjures, they don’t sound so bad…and they aren’t really bad in some situations.

I think one problem I have with them is, if I summon them, I feel compelled to use their charges, or at least most of the charges otherwise it feels like I’m wasting them.

A simple change that might make them more appealing, what if when you drop a conjured weapon, that is also casting a spell? Like dropping the Lightning Hammer is an AoE blind/blast finisher around you, dropping the greatsword creates a lava font under you, dropping the ice bow creates an ice field and AoE chill around you. If nothing more, that’d make them effective combo skills or extra utility if the combo field is too unbalanced.

No, it’s that you think you are ‘carrying low levels’ when sometimes you’re not…or that you think just because they’re level 80s, you won’t be carrying them when a lot of times you do.

If I’m leveling my alt, no one carries me. I guarantee it.

Drachshyish.2319:

Actually… Dont even bother finishing reading all the posts here. The way the de-leveling works for dungeons now makes it so that taking a lvl 80 in full exotic for a lower lvl dungeon is probably less effective than taking someone who is closer to meeting the lvl requirements if that person has decent gear.

Did a comparison with my warrior way back when he was lvl 55 vs a lvl 80 warrior in full exotic and we ended up at basically the same stats only that my lower lvl actually had more HP. And after the change to how the de-leveling and up-leveling works that difference should be skewed even more in favor of taking those that are closer to the level requirement of a dungeon.

Has this been thoroughly tested? I mean, I knew level scaling worked in favor of up-scaled players to allow them more even footing, but…better than exotic equipped 80s?

Personally, leveling my characters, I never felt at a huge disadvantage to other higher lvl members, the main disadvantage is the lack of trait points, utility skills and master/grandmaster traits…

What about food? How does that downscale? OR how would I begin testing this? I MUST KNOW!

lcpdragonslayer.7895:

What helps is if you post on gw2lfg.com to just state your level and profession. Then whoever invites you won’t be in for a surprise if you’re not a level 80 with 6000 achievement points swinging a Twilight around. And they’ll likely be more forgiving if you happen to down more often than the level 80s (though in my experience, it’s usually the level 80 glass cannons who just down over and over again).

The annoying part is, a lot of people expect you to /join after they put their posting up and don’t look for who’s seeking a team. In a lot of dungeons, posting you’re LFG may not get a response at all…

But then I usually don’t post what profession I am (I do put what level I am), and that’s namely so that people don’t discriminate. The last thing I need is someone inviting me just because I’m a Warrior or Mesmer (got 2 War 1 Mes and 1 Ele) as it just increases the chance I’ll be plopped in a boring elitist group with 2+ other warriors >_>

Account.9832:

I thought we (and they) were supposed to make a tactical decision about which was preferable: taking the risk of reviving him (knowing that the game freezes you in place while reviving, and doesn’t respond to the dodge key, etc.), or him reviving at a waypoint and walking back (taking some time and potentially dying along the way).

Probably initially, yes.

In reality, the average player is a lazy selfish slob. The tactical part in that decision would also include “do I have to move somewhere I wasn’t in order to rez” or “will I then be unable to Alt+tab to something during this fight”. Now, the success of the encounter hinges on each decision you make throughout. Make enough bad ones and you fail and must try again.

Now, if they remove the second option, the choice becomes one between risking the revive (with all the same problems) and not risking the revive (i.e., simply leaving the dead guy on the floor until you finish off the boss). And some people will opt for the second.

Each of those decisions comes with a pro and con. The pro of reviving is the encounter may be substantially shorter and safer overall while the pro of not reviving is you’re safer ‘right now’. The con of reviving is, like you mentioned, you might get downed and you won’t be doing as much damage to the foe while the con of not reviving is the fight will be longer due to less damage from the dead ally and a longer encounter leaving you open for more mistakes to be downed and killed.

There is still tactics in that decision whereas before, the main con was just how far the waypoint was at that point.

The best way to encourage people to revive their teammates is to make it easier (i.e., less risky) to revive them. I’d say that easily 50-75% of my deaths in dungeons happen when trying to revive someone else.

You should practice more. Which encounters do you commonly fall in? I won’t lie and say it’s easy, but the point of it is to prevent someone from going down to begin with otherwise it will be harder to bring them back up.

It SHOULD be hard to bring someone back up if they are completely defeated because everyone can bring someone back up by simply walking over to them and pressing F. If it weren’t hard, there would be no risk of failure and no risk = no challenge and no challenge = dead game.

Dodging should obviously take priority over reviving, but that’s not how GW2 behaves. Reviving basically glues your character to that spot, and can cause a delay of 2 or 3 seconds when you try to move, which is more than the warning time of most boss attacks. And let’s not even go into mechanics that seem deliberately aimed at punishing players who are reviving, like the burning condition in the imbued fire shaman fractal.

Using any skill will instantly cancel such actions. I never EVER get delayed 2+ seconds while trying to revive (seriously, are you kidding? that’s outright untrue), all you have to do is push a movement key then dodge (kinda helps to aim where you dodge too).

That burning you get during that fight isn’t even close to that severe (only promotes a ‘stick and move’ type of rezzing rather than just sitting there hoping the shaman doesn’t look your way). What’s really messed up is the lava pit parts where, if someone dies in/near them, rezzing them is impossible because the lava will damage them while they are dead, destroying any efforts to bring them back.

EliteZ.1682:

I remember when I was running AC once and had a lvl 35 ele who shouted and tried to abuse me because he swore blind he didn’t have a spell called “Ice Bow” and ended up afking during fights because he thought he was smart which meant we had to kick and find another player. Now had that ele been lvl 80 and had more experiance with his class to actually know what all of his spells are, then none of that would have happened.

You’d be wrong if you say it wouldn’t have happened. I’ve been in groups running SE, one was a guardian and he refused to use wall of reflection when asked. Me? My playstyle is “It doesn’t matter, you can make it work” and I’m not going out of my way to make sure the mesmer and/or guardian are using reflections on the golem trio on path 1…because it’s doable without. But if they were to use that stuff, it’d make the fight a whole lot easier and if the is smart enough, they’ll learn it themselves and swap to the utilities best suited for the situation. If they don’t? -Shrug- you can do it without. Same with the example you mentioned, you don’t need ice bows unless you want to solo it…and even solo, you don’t need ice bows…but going afk randomly without a word, yeah…-Kick-.

I prefer to let people willingly contribute what they have rather than demanding they do what I tell them…but that’s starting to go off topic.

Anyway, I have only every come across this once when a group told me I needed atleast 10 AR for lvl 10 fractal, even though i’m on lvl 19 with my main who has no AR and i’ve done lvl 12 fractal on my lvl 80 who doesn’t have a single exotic item. Apart from them I’ve never had any problems, in fact as soon as my guardian hit lvl 35 I lvled her to lvl 80 from exp dungeons and personal story quests only and never came across a group that said “sorry you’re too low lvl”.

It’s really not as bad as people make it out to be, many people do say 80 only, or you must have said gear or said stats, However, there are just as much, if not, more people who wouldn’t give a second thought to your lvl, gear, stats, traits, build, skills or anything else.

I’d agree. Yeah, there are some people that will drop you from a team if they don’t ‘like’ you. And ‘like’ can be a variety of things: not a class the leader wants, not the right equipment, not enough achievement points, etc. Thankfully, it’s not so bad that it has become a horrible issue. It’s there but that’s only natural.

But I’ve run into this level-elitism before, specifically way back during the Halloween events. Back then I didn’t even have a level 80 yet, and here’s a cool dungeon that will only be around for a week or two and people were turning me down left and right was frustrating (coupled with other frustrations). The way I see it, just like any activity in the game, people’s time is finite. I wouldn’t want to inconvenience people who literally are in a rush to get something in game done with what little precious time they have in the game…but please do see others’ perspectives as they may want to have as much fun as they can in the game. If they find dungeons fun, forcing them to farm/craft to get to level 80 just to do what they want is just as, if not more, selfish than labling a dungeon exper as a leecher using others as twink lvling service.

It’s an insult to people that generally play dungeons well and put effort into their gameplay and is overestimating the exotic 80s, many who will seek out any lazy quick way out of finishing the instance to get their rewards…even going so far as to exploit the game in various ways. Anyone who sides with exploiters…well, I just don’t feel they have any rights here in regards to how dungeons are or should be played.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Leo G.4501:

The entry wager would be pretty hefty, how much one would get per path, per player although repair costs would be waived but then the effort and time involved plus recording and posting…You probably couldn’t afford it :P

The only thing I’d exempt from this would be Fractals and Arah #4. That’s more a bonus dungeon anyway.

Repair costs? No armor == no repairs.

Uh…duh?

The entry wager would be pretty hefty, how much one would get per path, per player although repair costs would be waived but then the effort and time involved plus recording and posting…You probably couldn’t afford it :P

The only thing I’d exempt from this would be Fractals and Arah #4. That’s more a bonus dungeon anyway.

DeathPanel.8362:

My point is that certain dungeons do and it’s not elitist but realistic to have those requirements for any rational thinking pug team in that situation.

And this is why your analogy fails. This is false.

Barring fractals, no dungeon requires good gear, just gear. And they only require lvl 80 as an entrance qualification. I bet you, every dungeon can be complete by naked players with white weapons. I’d bet money on it.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Midgardener.6701:

20 points in Air Magic with Quick Glyphs (adept) and Inscription (master).

Activate Glyph of Elemental Harmony (now 20 second CD) for default 20 seconds of Swiftness.

Take a few slots in Arcane so that boon duration is higher than default.

That’s all you need, regardless of weapon set. Best if you plan to have multiple glyphs on your bar.

Base swiftness duration of GoEH is 10s, not 20s.

Inscription gives a boon for any glyphs cast depending on attunement. GoEH is a glyph. Cast it in Air attunement = GoEH 10sec swiftness + Inscription 10sec swiftness.

Works with all the attunements. Cast GoEH in earth = 3sec of protection + Inscription 3sec of protection = 6sec of protection. Add boon duration and other glyphs for increased effect.

Note: Currently bugged. Does not work with elite skill Glyph of Elementals.

Well, the second you turn this into a non paying job, you failed. How about that?

DeathPanel.8362:

It’s like saying requiring a medical degree for surgeons is “elitist”.

It is if you’d require one to play Trauma Team for the Wii.

http://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/GhKr9U1AW_g_U9R6cuVZoCPqetAT7UqC

Seriously, this is a GAME. The second you turn it into a job, you failed.

I think the OP partly likes the focus skin, just not the performance that comes with it. Focus is a rather defense oriented weapon and it can mesh in certain situations but in others, it might not help as much as just more offense.

That said, I enjoy s/f probably more than I do d/d. s/d is the more offensive combo but you have to keep in close. d/f…is probably my least favorite combo as dagger main feels relatively lacking without its off-hand skills. Another mainhand option that better paired with focus would be nice.

As far as skins, I don’t care about them. But then I play Asura elementalist and you can barely see the daggers anyway.

Exotic 80s running low level dungeons ad-nauseum are usually doing it because they’re not good enough to farm the harder dungeons.

Regardless, the scaled down dungeons aren’t hard enough to require full exotics. But people that run speed farms, that’s their own business. Even on my lvl 80s with exotic and ascended gear, I don’t bother joining speed farms. They aren’t fun.

Keyce.8137:

CoF paths 2&3 had some of the hardest defense events in the game (pre-nerf). Trying to protect Magg while he set up a bomb was almost impossible to overcome without waypointing constantly. Then in path 3, you have to capture and hold a point in front of a door, while constant silvers appear out of the ground and try to kill you.

Hard doesn’t mean impossible and no, the end part of CoF 3 was easy. The hard part was the simple task of sneaking past the guards at the start..or getting a group to run it in the first place.

I’ve done both those paths pre-nerf and it’s not that tough. The tough part of protecting Magg is dealing with the uproarious whining you get from the group as they wanted to just rez-zerg it instead of just fight.