Guild Wars 2

After deciding the old Blackwater was basically nerfed into unfunness, and that condi shatter just doesn’t work, as in MtD itself adds almost nothing to the build and you’re almost always better off not shattering, I decided to try and come up with a condi build for this new post PU era.

Here is is http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAW7cl0npMtFqxRNcrRCvxYqFOZKtgyh2pkBcLA-T5AWwAA2fQ/TAwRZAA

The idea is that scepter 2, IE, and DD are the primary sources of condi dmg for us. Blackwater kills too slow, and MtD is basically just a waste of 2 points, IE being the whole point of going into illusions for condi now.

I’m calling this Blockwater because it still relies on clone death, but the nerf to DD means we need to increase our clone generation to produce more to offset the weaker DD we now have. We have a scepter block every 6 seconds and a sword block every 9 seconds. With DE this actually can produce a lot of clones, as well as a lot of torment.

I’m experimenting with runes of guardian that apply a nice 1 sec burn on each block, for about 680 each time. You could swap these out for undead or something else for more dmg, I think it averages out about the same on the sc/sw side, and a little better of course on the staff side.

It’s early days and I only just started trying this out, but so far it seems to work really well. Staff is for if you are being ignored in a group fight, just get 3 clones out and AA away. If you are focused by someone swap over to block mode and start applying burning (if guardian runes) and torment and DD explosions in high frequency.

Sigils I put on bursting to compensate for the Guardian runes, the second one is up to you or both if you go undead/whatever.

I put serious condi cleanse with mantra heal and a utility devoted to it (take null field if you want) because to me nothing is lamer than a condi build that dies easily condis.

Either side sc/sw or staff will force cleanses, and it’s easy to overwhelm them. It’s not as tough as the old PU builds, but it puts out more pressure than old PU or MtD, and with nice condi cleanse. All the blocks and the 8 sec phase retreat actually give you quite a lot of survivability, just have to work little harder than old PU. You can last against 3 people for a little while, but not forever. You can win 2v1’s with this, but it’s not easy like it was with PU.

Gear for wvw is the usual, same thing you would use for PU except maybe more dire.

I hope you guys enjoy it. I’m not sure what the options are for condi now besides weak PU and MtD, but for now this is what I’m running when I go condi. Let me know how it goes if you try it.

Honestly not too sure what optimal runes are at this point. I change mine up a lot. One thing to keep in mind is how phantasms inherit stats. They only inherit base stats, so like sigil of force doesn’t help phants, but might on you does. Somewhere all the info on their stats is posted, a little fuzzy on it. You’ll have to hunt around yourself for that on :P

DrDivine.5378:

MSFone.3026:

DrDivine.5378:

MSFone.3026:

DrDivine.5378:

MSFone.3026:

DrDivine.5378:

MSFone.3026:

Have you tried a phantasm build yet? It’s better 1v1 than PU, but you need to be on the ball to win a 2v1 and 3v1 its gg. But honestly if you won a 2v1 as PU you were playing against semi clueless people, and you will also be able to 2v1 them as phantasm.

I’ve been running a CI phant build that is fun, you give up some dmg for some control, but somewhere Pyro posted a pure phantasm build that in my experience just trashes absolutely anyone 1v1 and is solid 1v2. Give it a try, once you get the hang of it nobody should take you out 1v1. An added bonus is that you wreck thieves almost the most out of any class you fight.

No I haven’t, do you havea build for it?

Here is link to thread
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-Overpowered-PvP-Phantasm-Build/first

The post is old, the build still works. Tweak as needed of course, but you get the idea. Pyro spells it out too: Summon phantasms, run in circles, your target dies.

I’ve been trying this one today and like the playstyle, though the phantasms aren’t hitting as hard for some reason. Necros in particular are really walling them, especially minionmancers. Any tips?

Hmm not sure about the phants not hitting hard. Really you just use all your skills defensively except phantasm skills. BF is on a pretty short cd, you should be able to mitigate a ton of dmg. Not sure what to say It’s day 1 so keep at it I guess, I’m pretty sure this build does not have a real counter 1v1.

So after a few games I started getting a lot better and I really than kyou for showing me this build as it’s a lot of fun, I guess I have two problems I need advice on:

1: a good skill rotation

2: how to deal with particular builds that use AI (minionmancers, turrets, etc.)

My problem before was that I kept using my skills offensively and either destroying one of the phantasms or leaving myself open xD.

I’m not the authority on this build, but here’s my take on those:

1) I don’t know if there is really a rotation more than just maintaining phantasms and your HP. What I mean is get your phants out, and make sure you have 2 out at all times. There is no need to resummon them if you already have 2, and usually the third will get overwritten from your blocks, which is fine. So you may go through many fights where you phants skills are just sitting there after the first summon, which is totally fine.

For the rest of your skills, you basically cycle through them defensively along with dodges, so you space everything out, blocks, Blade Frenzy and dodges to get as close as you can to constantly mitigating their attacks. I don’t mean cycle through no matter what is happening, I mean cycle through as they cycle through their attacks. Your job is to mitigate their dmg while your phatns rip them apart.

2) This goes into 1). The name of the game is don’t die, so as you make sure your phants are up, you are just kiting/dodging/blocking/BF to avoid their dmg from their turrets/pets/whatever. Phants don’t need LoS, so back off that turret engi a bit, no need to get in his face. Sit back and let your phants wear him down. Not sure on specific advice re minion master. Just try to time your blocks/BF to eat big attacks. It’s tougher I suppose because your block can get eaten by a tiny pet attack and then you get nailed with a big one. But that’s it mostly.

Glad you like it! I can’t take credit for anything of course.

So I kept going with this build and I;m starting to win duels again, once you get the rotation down it really wrecks! While I still need to learn a bit how to deal with AI such as minion and clones with this build, I definitely feel like my mistakes are more user error and that my mesmer is back where he used to be if not better. In fact, he deals much more damage than my old PU build with sort of the same survivability so I really gotta thank you for showing me this build

kitten ya man, stoked you are stoked! I also love this build. I wanted to get into it for a while, but never really did until recently. Unfortunately it scales terribly with number of people in the fight, so I tweaked mine to be a little more lockdown to add some control and utility (and fun cause MoD is the best). But ya it is a very very fun build for hot join, solo Q and roaming.

Really you should thank Pyro (aka Fay) for coming up with it (or at least posting the good guide I linked).

Seeing all the QQ on here, what I am really seeing is people playing glass builds that are mad that a ranger can kill them before they kill the ranger. I don’t play ranger, and I normally don’t play glass, and honestly this hasn’t been a problem at all for me. This is 100% L2P, or rather L2Adapt.

Rangers that don’t build glass do not hit that hard, rangers that do go glass hit harder and only really waste other glass builds. Glass is supposed to be high reward – high risk. Rangers are now your risk.

This class has been objectively kitten for years, literally years. I never ever, like ever, worried about a ranger, ever. Free kill every single time. Now I have to think a little bit more when I fight one. This change has enriched my gameplay experience, and so I want to thank Anet for doing it.

A nice bonus is getting to laugh at all the people crying about Rangers. And the last little cherry on top is that people are crying about Rangers instead of mesmers for once (I only play mes ).

It works, go use the skill and watch the actual cd on it. It will be 6 sec.

adelaide.6213:

This might sound a bit radical, but I’ve been running mantra heal with only mender’s purity (no HM, running a tight build) and I’ve found that it’s good enough to deal with condi users, and not really compromising against power builds. It took a while to get used to though, and the aoe MoD buff really helps a lot with locking down your opponents while you recharge your heal.

Glad to hear that. I’ve been considering going without HM, I think I’ll give it a go. The extra charge on MoD is neat, but I can maybe take cd reduction to still give it a boost.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Hit’s hard. Still removes a boon. Easy to catch targets in the radius. Nothing not to be happy about.

Pretty much. If people are looking for creative thinking to help our class from the devs, I think mind stab is the last place I’d tell them to work. It’s a simple ability that got a simple buff. I call it good.

Now what they did to mimic on the other hand…

DrDivine.5378:

MSFone.3026:

DrDivine.5378:

MSFone.3026:

DrDivine.5378:

MSFone.3026:

Have you tried a phantasm build yet? It’s better 1v1 than PU, but you need to be on the ball to win a 2v1 and 3v1 its gg. But honestly if you won a 2v1 as PU you were playing against semi clueless people, and you will also be able to 2v1 them as phantasm.

I’ve been running a CI phant build that is fun, you give up some dmg for some control, but somewhere Pyro posted a pure phantasm build that in my experience just trashes absolutely anyone 1v1 and is solid 1v2. Give it a try, once you get the hang of it nobody should take you out 1v1. An added bonus is that you wreck thieves almost the most out of any class you fight.

No I haven’t, do you havea build for it?

Here is link to thread
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-Overpowered-PvP-Phantasm-Build/first

The post is old, the build still works. Tweak as needed of course, but you get the idea. Pyro spells it out too: Summon phantasms, run in circles, your target dies.

I’ve been trying this one today and like the playstyle, though the phantasms aren’t hitting as hard for some reason. Necros in particular are really walling them, especially minionmancers. Any tips?

Hmm not sure about the phants not hitting hard. Really you just use all your skills defensively except phantasm skills. BF is on a pretty short cd, you should be able to mitigate a ton of dmg. Not sure what to say It’s day 1 so keep at it I guess, I’m pretty sure this build does not have a real counter 1v1.

So after a few games I started getting a lot better and I really than kyou for showing me this build as it’s a lot of fun, I guess I have two problems I need advice on:

1: a good skill rotation

2: how to deal with particular builds that use AI (minionmancers, turrets, etc.)

My problem before was that I kept using my skills offensively and either destroying one of the phantasms or leaving myself open xD.

I’m not the authority on this build, but here’s my take on those:

1) I don’t know if there is really a rotation more than just maintaining phantasms and your HP. What I mean is get your phants out, and make sure you have 2 out at all times. There is no need to resummon them if you already have 2, and usually the third will get overwritten from your blocks, which is fine. So you may go through many fights where you phants skills are just sitting there after the first summon, which is totally fine.

For the rest of your skills, you basically cycle through them defensively along with dodges, so you space everything out, blocks, Blade Frenzy and dodges to get as close as you can to constantly mitigating their attacks. I don’t mean cycle through no matter what is happening, I mean cycle through as they cycle through their attacks. Your job is to mitigate their dmg while your phatns rip them apart.

2) This goes into 1). The name of the game is don’t die, so as you make sure your phants are up, you are just kiting/dodging/blocking/BF to avoid their dmg from their turrets/pets/whatever. Phants don’t need LoS, so back off that turret engi a bit, no need to get in his face. Sit back and let your phants wear him down. Not sure on specific advice re minion master. Just try to time your blocks/BF to eat big attacks. It’s tougher I suppose because your block can get eaten by a tiny pet attack and then you get nailed with a big one. But that’s it mostly.

Glad you like it! I can’t take credit for anything of course.

DrDivine.5378:

MSFone.3026:

DrDivine.5378:

MSFone.3026:

Have you tried a phantasm build yet? It’s better 1v1 than PU, but you need to be on the ball to win a 2v1 and 3v1 its gg. But honestly if you won a 2v1 as PU you were playing against semi clueless people, and you will also be able to 2v1 them as phantasm.

I’ve been running a CI phant build that is fun, you give up some dmg for some control, but somewhere Pyro posted a pure phantasm build that in my experience just trashes absolutely anyone 1v1 and is solid 1v2. Give it a try, once you get the hang of it nobody should take you out 1v1. An added bonus is that you wreck thieves almost the most out of any class you fight.

No I haven’t, do you havea build for it?

Here is link to thread
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-Overpowered-PvP-Phantasm-Build/first

The post is old, the build still works. Tweak as needed of course, but you get the idea. Pyro spells it out too: Summon phantasms, run in circles, your target dies.

I’ve been trying this one today and like the playstyle, though the phantasms aren’t hitting as hard for some reason. Necros in particular are really walling them, especially minionmancers. Any tips?

Hmm not sure about the phants not hitting hard. Really you just use all your skills defensively except phantasm skills. BF is on a pretty short cd, you should be able to mitigate a ton of dmg. Not sure what to say It’s day 1 so keep at it I guess, I’m pretty sure this build does not have a real counter 1v1.

DrDivine.5378:

MSFone.3026:

Have you tried a phantasm build yet? It’s better 1v1 than PU, but you need to be on the ball to win a 2v1 and 3v1 its gg. But honestly if you won a 2v1 as PU you were playing against semi clueless people, and you will also be able to 2v1 them as phantasm.

I’ve been running a CI phant build that is fun, you give up some dmg for some control, but somewhere Pyro posted a pure phantasm build that in my experience just trashes absolutely anyone 1v1 and is solid 1v2. Give it a try, once you get the hang of it nobody should take you out 1v1. An added bonus is that you wreck thieves almost the most out of any class you fight.

No I haven’t, do you havea build for it?

Here is link to thread
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-Overpowered-PvP-Phantasm-Build/first

The post is old, the build still works. Tweak as needed of course, but you get the idea. Pyro spells it out too: Summon phantasms, run in circles, your target dies.

IGN: Arcanis Trippin
Role: Scholar
Server: Fort Aspenwood
Playstyle: PVP/WvW
Time: NA nights

Steinpilz.5078:

MSFone.3026:

the only reason to take MtD is if you can reliably nail 3 people with your shatters in a group fight. Other than that I’d say ya this trait is just turning out to be pretty lame.

I don’t understand why this should be so.
Imagine a warrior with some stacks of torment and confusion, he should die fast.
Torment is a very powerful condition.

Yes, and you’ll apply more torment treating your scepter block to be on lower cd. scepter 2 so far outclasses MtD by itself it’s ridiculous. What’s worse is that if you are fighting some warrior and you are in MtD, then you also have IE, and it is a flat out loss in damage to shatter your clones rather than let the staff clones AA him down with IE. So scepter is still better at torment, and shattering your clones nerfs your dmg. That is why it is lame.

Have you tried a phantasm build yet? It’s better 1v1 than PU, but you need to be on the ball to win a 2v1 and 3v1 its gg. But honestly if you won a 2v1 as PU you were playing against semi clueless people, and you will also be able to 2v1 them as phantasm.

I’ve been running a CI phant build that is fun, you give up some dmg for some control, but somewhere Pyro posted a pure phantasm build that in my experience just trashes absolutely anyone 1v1 and is solid 1v2. Give it a try, once you get the hang of it nobody should take you out 1v1. An added bonus is that you wreck thieves almost the most out of any class you fight.

Here’s another question: Is there anyone who would take the new Mimic over AT if they had to take one in their build right now?

If I want to really worry about counter condi builds I run HM (dueling 6) with menders purity (inspiration 2) and mantra heal and then some utility. Over the top would be mantra cleanse, but null field or AT also works. Whenever I run that condi builds are not a problem. With some builds I can’t work it in, but with most I can. You just have to give something up to be able to counter condi builds.

Is it a coincidence that they changed Mimic at the same time they brought on revenge of the LB ranger? I don’t think so…

Fay.2357:

There’s been quite a few threads on this forum discussing this exact topic that you’d find if you looked around at all. To save you the trouble though, I’ll summarize them all.

Condition shatter isn’t viable in any sense of the word other than as a curiosity or something different to play. It’s objectively worse at applying conditions than almost any other variant you can use.

I’d say this is def true 1v1, and maybe, I mean maybe as in this is the only way MtD is worth it at all and I haven’t really tested it, the only reason to take MtD is if you can reliably nail 3 people with your shatters in a group fight. Other than that I’d say ya this trait is just turning out to be pretty lame.

This is the first thread I’ve seen about a build where the OP gets into non stop arguments with everyone who posts comments he doesn’t like.

Here’s a protip: Post some videos of you schooling people and beating the builds they are saying you can’t beat. Everyone will shut up /thread you win. Otherwise it’s all talk and nobody will believe anything you say. You are the one who posted the build, so it’s up to you to prove your claims about it. Or just keep arguing on the forum, but nobody is going to be convinced without footage.

Fay.2357:

This looks like a pretty standard hybrid build.

As with all hybrid builds, the issue is that you can’t actually do everything at once. In this case, both sides of your damage application are very weak.
…
Your damage is spread too thin, and no one aspect will really hurt, resulting in a build that doesn’t really hurt.
…

I’ve seen you say this various places and I’ve always wondered what you base it on. I respect a lot of what you have to say, but I think you are wrong about this, at least based on the numbers, and here is why: Both condi damage and direct damage scale linearly with their respective stat.

What this means is that the difference between 1000 and 1200 condition dmg is the same as 1800-2000 condition damage, the 200 additional condition damage gives you the same gain in both cases. Same for power.

When you say weak condition damage + weak direct damage = weak damage, you are implying there is a nonlinearity here, as in the total damage in a hybrid build is less than the sum of the individual parts.

If you have 1000 condition damage and 1000 power, you are saying that your conditions are weak because you only have 1000 condition damage, and players can ignore them. You say that your direct attacks are weak because you only have 1000 power, and so players can ignore them. So you say they can ignore them both, but this isn’t true based on how damage scales. The DPS from each adds linearly, so together they are not negligible.

If you are basing this on something else, it would be great if you could say what that is. If not I think you need to rethink this claim.

Talking about a hybrid condi shatter build, as said above, IP would quickly outshine MtD. But this is a cool idea: The main attrition part of the build comes form scepter block and IE clones, so you could use those to wear down an opponent, and then go in for a normal IP shatter for burst. But here you are practically doing normal shatter anyways, just maybe a little beefier with some rabid gear (wvw) or a celestial amulet. I’m pretty sure this would be even weaker than normal MtD now though, and you might as well just stick with power IP shatter.

For me I’m working on coming up with a non MtD condi build. I don’t think PU is worth it anymore, so maybe CI would be a fun alternative. But then weak condi cleanse, so that’s out imo. Maybe go for scepter trait and IE together? Like a 0/4/2/4/4 or 0/6/0/4/4 with harmonious mantras or furious interruption. Would be sweet if quickness applied to your clones :P. Even so, take MoD and get an interrupt with staff AA with IE would be a sweet dmg boost, maybe even with scepter for some quick torment stacks. They really need to remove the stupid CD on FI or increase the quickness duration, it’s just so kitten with it.

This would be another build where you never really shatter, which is lame, but if you took some lockdown like MoD it would still be a fun build that wasn’t totally passive. I’ll be giving it a try over the next week.

MtD was a fun idea, but if one scepter block or having 3 clones AA is better than a 3 clone MtD shatter the trait is just not worth it imo. Even roaming I bet there are stronger condi builds without MtD.

Windwalker.7421:

(Killing off 3 clones for 3 stacks of Torment alone is almost always a bad idea, unless you’re pretty certain to hit at least 3 targets with it.)

I hadn’t thought about it like this, but right here I think you hit the nail on the head. It bums me out, but really this statement is the most important thing to understand about the build. With IE the purpose of MtD is to apply aoe condi pressure. That is cool that we can do that now, and maybe that is the reason the stacks are limited. If it was 2 stacks per illusion then that would possibly by OP considering it’s aoe? On the other hand maybe not since normal shatter can do insane aoe burst. Either way, MtD is for aoe condi pressure, which is ok, but it feels disappointing, like maybe just a tiny bit better than Imbued Diversion (and maybe even worse??). Most importantly it’s a GM trait that really doesn’t do anything to help you drop someone.

When I think of a shatter build, I’d like to think that if you are able to nail a 3 clone shatter on someone, they should be hurting. With MtD, if you do that in many situations you actually nerfed yourself.

It’s not totally true, because like you say this can apply some aoe condi pressure, but in many situations this build is just another build where we are better off not using our class mechanic F1-F4. Quite the bummer imo. After this analysis, I’ll probably go back to power builds, which is a shame as I really like the damage over time play style.

Thanks for the thoughts, very helpful in forming my opinion of MtD.

It hasn’t quite been a week yet, but I’m sure a lot more people have tried MtD now with all the changes. How are people feeling about it? On a side note I tried PU once and felt the nerf, imo that build is gone.

I really want MtD to work and be a viable condi build. My opinion, still early I suppose, is that even with changes MtD does not work well enough in sPvP to content with lockdown or power shatter. This could be a L2P issue on my part, but I feel that to really overwhelm my opponent with condo’s I need to really send in waves of clones, shattering F1-F2-F3 pretty close together to get one to really land and not be cleansed. This is without sword. Otherwise it’s a sort of attrition play style that I feel the build can’t really win. Just like kite with staff sorta and try to wait out and time shatters, which takes a lot of time for a reward on successful shatter that just isn’t that big.

Landing the scepter block is a way huger deal than landing a full 3 clone F2 shatter. I think that right there says it all about this build. Yes it has some good aoe condi application in group fights, and yes it is beefier because of stats, but all in all power shatter still comes out miles ahead.

Anyone else honestly feel MtD really kicks kitten in sPvP, on par with standard shatter say?

As far as wvw goes, because of the stats and condition duration you can get there, I’d say this is a fun roaming build. Because of duration and the dire gear you can use, it’s just a lot stronger in small wvw fights than in sPvP. The condi hits harder and last longer, so it is much easier to get kills, and honestly people melt quite fast. It’s a real fun roaming build. I’ve been running scepter/focus and staff, and with the torment on AA and 50% condi duration people actually can’t run that easily compared to a condi build pre patch. Like all condi builds, it’s nice to have a build that can dish out serious damage without being glass, and I think MtD really is just a less forgiving condi build than PU, say higher risk and higher reward, which is nice.

So to me with the changes we lost PU condi and gained in MtD a nice condi build for roaming that is a good balance of risk and reward, and pretty fun too. Even in some smaller fights, not many people are overwriting your confusion or torment stacks, so it’s not a concern like it is iwht burning/bleed.

I’ve heard some people say the slow speed of killing makes this not ok for roaming, but imo it doesn’t actually kill that slowly. Much faster than old PU condi or clone death builds, of course not as fast as power shatter, but I wouldn’t call it slow.

What are others’ experience in roaming with it?

HyldahlSkyline.8493:

Im a ranger and thief, and as a ranger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnzC3FnWXIo

(Not my video)

Rangers are way to strong now, i am aware of;
- Some of them are low levels
- He picks the squishy targets
- He runs realyl squishy build

But that dosn’t change the fact that power rangers are way to strong now. They needed a buff for sure, no doubt. But this is pathetic. (but fun!)
I hope they balance the skills a little, i feel like im to stong.

Should also mention literally none of his targets dodge at all, like not once. Yes the dmg is coming fast, but honestly that is why dodge is in the game, it would negate just about the entire rapid.

Really this is just another build that shines at jacking clueless people in wvw, which I am all for. Keep the hilarious videos coming imo. Most competent players will wreck a glassy ranger like that.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

MSFone.3026:

Warlord.9074:

The Adrenaline changes killed this profession. Was fighting a thief he blinked away. Lost all adrenaline, then got rekt.

ANET you just killed your own game. Whoever Okayed these changes should be fired. And your whole balance testing team should be as well.

Good riddance. The warrior class is a face roll piece of button mashing garbage anyways and Anet is brilliant for the change. They earned more money from me by doing it. Go get kitten d by more thieves and then come back and QQ more ok? This was a fun read.

>Inb4 he Rolls Ranger

rofl

Who’s going to roll ranger? I play mesmer and only mesmer and anytime I want can take a kitten on warriors (without using PU). I don’t have to fear them to think they are button mashing garbage that has just been brought into the realm of having to think like at all before using skills.

As the dude above me said, if you blow all your skills and miss them, then ya you probably should lose. Just before the OP didn’t and now he’s crying, and so ya, good riddance to a class that allowed ppl to just mash kitten without penalty or thought. Now there is a new class called “Warrior” except this one you can’t just mash mash mash and win. Welcome to having to time your skills like the rest of us.

Edit: I’m not saying there aren’t people who attempt to play warrior without mashing skills, I’m sure some do and those are the hardest to fight. I’m just saying the class allowed people to just mash buttons if they chose, and now they can’t and I say good riddance to that.

Arachnid.4062:

Warlord.9074:

The Adrenaline changes killed this profession. Was fighting a thief he blinked away. Lost all adrenaline, then got rekt.

ANET you just killed your own game. Whoever Okayed these changes should be fired. And your whole balance testing team should be as well.

“I missed my all my skills and they went on cooldown and I died” Sounds like what’s supposed to happen when you miss all your skills, bro

Also this. kitten .

Well thanks for the responses! This is exactly what I wanted, people’s take on the build in light of the new changes. I know from experience theory can say one thing and reality can be another, so I’m pumped to give it a real go and try pretty hard to see how much mileage I can get out of MtD. I would love to be able to get on par performance with PU clone death, because in my opinion the shatter play style is more challenging and engaging. Am I nerfing myself by not just playing PU condi if I want to play a condi build? Maybe, but not anymore than how much I’m nerfing myself by not playing Ele or Guard or War lol :P

If MtD turns out to be as lackluster post patch as people seem to think, I’ll just stick with shatter or CI which should be pretty cool with the mantra buffs and the sword/focus fixes.

On whether or not PU clone death will be stronger or not post patch, my opinion is definitely not as strong. It will have reduced pressure and reduced defense, I’m expecting a pretty kitten experience for PU condi post patch. On the other hand CI would benefit a lot from aegis getting eaten by DD, in fact DD could be used as an aegis clear in place of a shatter, which is very cool.

Thanks for reply Warlord , but what I’m asking is: Do you consider the build taking MtD with scepter/focus(or whatever) and staff cheese? I’m not asking what people think of the changes to each of those individually, we already know very well what everyone thinks about that.

I’m planning on trying MtD with scepter/focus and staff. Do you think this will be a “cheese” build because it is condi and uses scepter and IE staff clones? I personally don’t, as without PU you’re def. not super hard to kill. I’m just curious as to what everyone’s opinion is on MtD in light of the buffs to scepter AA and IE (ofc assuming IE actually happens this time…).

What are you guys planning on trying? I’m going to really try to make MtD work, I think scepter/focus+staff ofc with the buffs. If warden and sword work as intended that is a good buff for shatter and CI as well.

My top builds post patch are going to be MtD and CI, and a little shatter.

All the elites in this game are kittened, just get rid of the special elite slot and give ppl 4 utility slots with the option of using an elite in the fourth slot like in GW1 where it worked perfectly fine.

It’s kittening stupid that these supposedly “elite” utility skills are worse than the other 3 normal ones on my bar.

Blades of Sabatine.5639:

StickerHappy.8052:

If I were you, just play what you want. Why would you even bother making a thread like this?

First of all if you find PU boring, no one is forcing you to use PU.

The real cancer here is people like you.

Please read the post again before commenting.

Firstly, I never said PU was boring, more the million and one post about the build is becoming boring. It not helping anyone nor the new players of the class

Secondly, I am making this post so that people and devs alike can see that the trait it self has caused or is causing a lot of problem for the class. And before you say we all know about it, this post is just to enforce it some more.

And who say I don’t play what I want to play?

Saying that I am the cancer for making this post show that you sir/ma don’t really take the time, care to read and understand what people are writing before you reply. If you cannot see that PU trait is a problem than I have no words to say to you.

Don’t you think it’s pretty ironic to make a post complaining about too many posts about PU? I mean you’re literally adding another post about PU to the forum right now lol. The devs did take a look at PU, and they did serious nerf PU condi. If you want more that’s another issue, but when have you seen Anet address something and then do it more because some players didn’t think they went far enough. This ship has sailed, and I think you know you’re going to have to wait a) till after the patch tomorrow to actually see what happens to PU condi builds and b) another six months or so till next balance patch. Probably best to just chill it on the forum posting over PU and actually see what the situation is after the patch. Come back in a month and make this post again if nothing has changed.

So I what I’m reading is that condi is the better choice for small group roaming or soloQ/hotjoin, basically any small group solo/PUG play, and power is the only choice for zergs(everyone knows that of course) and “high-level” pvp/coordinated team play.

Another way of putting this is that, aside from zerg wvw play, if you are a casual PvP player condi will be the best choice and if you are hard core/high-level power will. This seems likes a problem for a game that is clearly very geared toward casual players (like myself).

I don’t care about “high-level” play, I just want to jump on the game after work and have fun. Of course it’s fun to be good, so I try, but to me condi is not face roll (I’m not talking PU mesmer etc.) There are condi builds that take skill to play, and there is strategy and timing to those as well, and I find them fun, so I don’t think it’s some kind of huge problem for the game, but condi shouldn’t have the clear advantage over power that I think it does.

I still like power builds because off it’s fun to outplay your opponent with timing and landing that huge in your face burst (say kittenter mes) is pretty awesome. This thread explains a lot, in that the weaknesses of power builds go away in organized play, but if you are just going to play solo/PUG you are going to feel them more. Since I think the majority of players are solo/PUG that is why you see the huge QQ about condi.

This is good info though, so if/when I do want to do serious tPvP I know to not roll in there as condi and get yelled at :P. In the meantime I guess I’ll focus on making ppl cry with condi builds.

I know some people are saying clone death nerf will push people even more into PU, but I’m guessing we will see less PU because of the nerfs. It will be basically the same it is now, except significantly less tanky and significantly less damaging. So basically it we be even easier to ignore and take even longer to kill someone who doesn’t ignore you, and on top of that you’ll have to work even harder to stay alive. It’s going to be a pretty kittenin horrible build to run, so only the most diehard PUers will. I’ve run it before and I’m not a hater on the trait, but I’m sure not ever gonna bother with it again after the nerfs, it is just going to suck.

Edit: PU condi I mean, I guess PU power will basically still work the same with a nerf to defense, but that isn’t where all the QQ is coming from.

The sole purpose of the change was to nerf PU, not change its flavor in any coherent way. They added boons to the pool it chooses from strictly to reduce its defensive effectiveness. As such it makes no sense to complain about the new boons it gives, as all they cared about was those boons not being protection, aegis or regen.

Ross Biddle.2367:

SlimChance.6593:

Looking over the other professions “on dodge” traits. None of them directly affect the class mechanic like the Mesmer’s.

Guardian – Selfless Daring (Heals nearby allies)
Warrior- Reckless Dodge (Damage foes)
Engineer – Evasive Powder Keg (Creates a bomb)
Ranger – Companion’s Defense (Give protection)
Ranger – Evasive Purity (Remove blind and poison)
Thief – Expeditious Dodger (Gain swiftness)
Thief – Feline Grace (Gain endurance)
Thief – Fleet of Foot (Remove cripple and weakness)
Thief – Power of Inertia (Gain might)
Thief – Uncatchable (Leave caltrops behind)
Elementalist – Evasive Arcana (Create an attunement-based spell)
Elementalist – Stop, Drop, and Roll (Remove burning and chilled)
Mesmer – Deceptive Evasion (Create a clone)
Necromancer – Mark of Evasion (Leave a Mark of Blood)

Should DE ever been?

The next thing you need to be pointing out is all our traits that only grant bonuses per clones that exist. Including healing from a healing signit.

Without clones a Mesmer is dead in the water and has nothing. All those other classes continue to function without needing to have things “up”.

Isn’t that kinda the point though? DE is almost incomparably more mandatory and essential to basically every mesmer build than those other traits are to those classes. Those other class traits are perks, DE is a cornerstone. That is what he is pointing out I think (or should be :P ).

Put another way, none of the other classes need those traits to function properly. I think most mesmers would agree we need DE to function properly. I think Anet said some stuff a while back about play how you want yada yada?

DE should just be baseline and they can nerf other things imo.

Edit: Ok before someone else says it ya phantasm build don’t need DE, but do we really need to go there?

Kill Me – Hands down the thing I hate most to see other mesmers do. I really hate it so much when they do that! :-(

Whenever I can I take Harmonious mantras and mender’s purity with heal mantra. It’s 6 condis cleansed every 10 (12 if you count recharge time) seconds. Whenever I run with that I feel basically immune to condi builds, except maybe certain necro builds.

I’ve pulled it off in a few builds and each time I’ve just lol’d at condi thieves, engineers, etc. Like I said sometimes Necros get a little crazy even with the above, but the rest are close to a joke.

That is just HM/MP by itself, throw in AT or any other condi clear utility and you really are basically untouched by any condi build.

I don’t get why mesmer’s complain that we have no condi removal. We have insane condi removal, you just have to really build for it :-/

With a power build you get the added perk of centaur runes giving you perm swiftness if you build like the above. It’s pretty sweet. Running a condi build is a bummer after getting used to centaur.

I know this has been discussed a lot already. With the upcoming patch of course I’ve been spending time on gwskills and theory crafting builds. It just hit me, not for the first time, how much easier it is to build a solid condi build. People say you need crit and yada yada, but we all know you don’t. I sure don’t, and even if I want some, I mix dire and rabid.

I’m so tired of trying to make power builds because I end up having to make all these hard choices between Power/Crit/Ferocity on the one hand and Toughness/Vitality on the other. And on top of that I have to make specific trait/utility decisions to counter conditions. So it ends up being a lot of sacrifice to make a survivable build that can deal damage well.

On other other hand my condition builds don’t have the first problem, and so the second problem doesn’t seem so bad. Sure I still have to take cleanses, but it doesn’t hurt me because I don’t need to trait/utility for defense as much. I can give up a few traits/utility slots for cleanses because my stats work out so much better.

I think this is a nonlinearity that people haven’t really talked about. If I go full power build, I need to rely on traits/utilities more for my survival aside from condi cleanse, so having to also build to defend against condi is harder. It just stacks the deck even more in favor of condition builds.

I don’t think the solution is to nerf condition dmg, but somehow the two types of dmg have to be brought more into line in terms of stat balance and builds. I really think the two types of dmg should be merged.

I’m not complaining either, I really enjoy condi builds and have lots of fun jacking power builds with them that try to burst me and fail and melt flailing. But it will be less fun if everyone starts running condi.

What are the odds the IE “fix” doesn’t work just like last time though?

Pro.

The reason is that a) I don’t think this is a huge deal by itself, say in a MtD build, only really with a PU build, and b) with DD/Clone Death nerfed and PU toned down I think this change is totally fine and not OP at all. I also don’t think this will promote passive play; as has been explained already nobody is going to win by trying to rely on scepter AA, and with the nerf to clone death I don’t see PU condi doing anything with this AA buff besides running around not dying and not killing anyone ever. Any non-PU build could use a buff like this so it’s great, and any non-PU build is not passive play, say MtD for example.

PU clone death builds were the problem with this change, now those are gone (with some collateral damage, unfortunately, but omlettes and eggs and all that :-/ ).

After happily planning new builds for next week, now all I can think about is the following not unlikely scenario:

What if the fixes to IE and iLeap are bugged and don’t work, but of course the nerfs to DD, PU, etc. still go through? I suppose I’ll still try a maim build even if IE continues to not work, and I suppose shatter will go on working like it does now and I’ll just have to play without sword… or maybe I’ll just throw up my hands and finally walk away after being turded on for the Nth time :-/

Haven’t been into shatter for quite a while, but am getting back into it. Could any serious shatter players please tell me why they think staff is better these days than sword/X? Will this change after Sep 9?

One thing is for sure, the biggest buff to condi is IE working on clones, so now that they have nerfed PU condi into the ground, they better make sure IE works on staff clones. If it’s a repeat of April then Mesmers just got totally crapped on. If IE actually does what they are saying it will do, I think condi mesmers will live on fine, just mostly MtD I’d guess, as without clone death like it is now I don’t see Blackwater builds working anymore.

zaxon.6819:

just like everyone said.. if you cry about the torment buff. you will get mesmer nerfed.. not torment itself taken away.. gj mesmer community.

I think in the long run this nerf to PU is probably good for the class, but that is totally dependent if they start buffing us in other ways over the next year. It will be interesting to see how the class is viewed once PU is gone. Most likely noobs will still cry about PU mesmers when they mean any mesmer who stealths, but overall the distorting effect PU was having on how we were perceived will be gone and so hopefully our weakness will be more acknowledged and the real changes we need given to us.

Just saw this on ready up:

1)PU now grants swiftness and might in addition to existing three, so instead of 33% chance to get port/regen/aegis you will only have a 20% chance to get those (1 out of 5) defensive boons after patch.

2)Clone Death traits can now be blocked, evaded, blinded, etc. Debilatatiing Dissipation now applies 2 stacks of bleed for 4 seconds instead of 3 for 5.

Scepter AA changes going in as planned.

This is a big nerf to PU. Are the other upcoming buffs enough to compensate? Will the new go to condition build be MtD? Will any of you still play PU?

My first reaction is that PU the trait just got totally gutted, which I’m not sad or happy about either way really, because you will not see protection stacking up hardly at all compared to now.

I literally heard this 2 min ago watching ready up, not a prank or anything.

Discuss.

Fay.2357:

MSFone.3026:

Or do people think the 50% duration buff to MtD (4 sec to 6 sec) doesn’t change anything really? I remember before the conclusion of some testing in another thread was that maim just wasn’t viable.

This is accurate. It was the wrong change. The problem with MtD is that it’s not a bursty skill (trait), but it’s locked into an inherently bursty playstyle: shatters. Since that mismatch exists, it causes the whole build to just not work together properly. You’re playing bursty, trying to coordinate and land bursts…but then your “burst” can be completely annulled by a quick condition removal, or even someone standing still.

The change it needed was to drastically boost the stacks it applied, while reducing the duration a little bit to compensate. This allows you to actually burst with it, in the way that shatters have to be, instead of using a burst mechanic to apply sustained damage.

This makes intuitive sense. Bummer lol, guess it’s still PU for me when I go condi :-/

I’d almost say the scepter AA changes wouldn’t be that big a deal for condi shatter, rather IE and the 50% duration increase to MtD. In sPvP I’m not sure what kind of duration you can get, but say in wvw with food and a sigil you could easily get +50% condition duration, without any torment runes, and then the torment from the new MtD would be 9 seconds. 9 sec of torment with each shatter hit sounds pretty good, even without the scepter. In sPvP depending on runes, even if you got up to 30% duration your torments from Maim would be (just about) 8 seconds. That seems pretty good, and the IE change plus being not glass would seem to allow good kiting with sustained dmg in between condi bursts.

Another nice thing about the duration buff to MtD is that both unlike standard shatter you don’t just have mind wrack for burst. So you can easily get a 3 clone MW followed by a 3 clone cry or even diversion, and with the buffed duration there will overlap and the opponent will have 6 stacks of torment ticking, not to mention confusion and everything else. Granted they can cleanse it, but if you stagger with the scepter block it seems pretty hard to completely counter the build just with cleanses. Maybe I’m wrong because you’ll never land two back to back full shatters?

Or do people think the 50% duration buff to MtD (4 sec to 6 sec) doesn’t change anything really? I remember before the conclusion of some testing in another thread was that maim just wasn’t viable.

Assuming IE actually applies to clones post patch, the new condi PU build will be 0/4/6/0/4 scepter/torch and staff. Changing 2 points gives 0/4/4/0/6 with all the same gear and weapons (maybe some would consider sword over scepter for shatters).

Why is 0/4/6/0/4 going to be “OP” and 0/4/4/0/6 not going to work at all? The stats will be almost exactly the same, the utilities will all be the same, will skillful play and extra pressure from MtD not make the build on par with PU?

I’ve seen lot of scattered discussion and it would be really great to get it all in one thread taking into account the Sep 9 changes. I’m definitely going to give it a try, but let’s get the info on post Sep 9 MtD in one thread.

Been busy at work lately, and I’ve now accepted the changes that are coming. There were some buffs to lockdown and focus, but of course overall buffs to condi. My lockdown build won’t change, my shatter build won’t change, but I do want to see if I can find a new condition build.

What are the alternatives to condi PU? Let’s talk about some, of course the first many will mention is MtD, probably 0/4/4/0/6.

Strengths of MtD are basically you can run full rabid and not be as squish as standard shatter. I think that’s it :-/ But let’s craft some condi shatter builds or nail down exactly why they won’t work.

Probably everyone would take staff, but should other be Sword/ or Scepter/ ? Sword helps land shatters, scepter block is solid torment on 8 sec cd.

Will we put out enough condi pressure from the shatters that land to overpower cleanses? Is it possible to actually condi burst with MtD? Will the ratio of pressure we put out to survivability we have be on par with standard shatter?

I’m going to try MtD after patch and see for myself. What are some other non-PU condi builds people will be trying besides MtD?

I started another thread that got derailed by someone, and I wasn’t super clear on my thoughts, so I want to get a poll of what the community feels about the announced changes. There is a lot of flaming and irrational posting going on, so I thought it would be cool to just get simple survey of a question I’m really interested in. Here is the question:

QUESTION: Are the announced changes from the recent Skill Bar segment
A) good
B) bad
C) neutral
for the long term health of the mesmer class?

I interpret “health” as diversity of builds, strength in various areas of the game, high skill ceiling allowing for creative and engaging play styles, things like that. But interpret it however you want.